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<v Speaker 1>We have covered cases from around the world, and though

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<v Speaker 1>most of them are extremely tragic, once in a while

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<v Speaker 1>we come across a story that is so terrible it

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<v Speaker 1>catches us completely off guard. Today, we have a case

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<v Speaker 1>that is senseless, brutal, and downright horrific. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>story of sixteen year old Kelly and Bates.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening

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<v Speaker 2>to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. Warning.

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<v Speaker 1>The following podcasts and material intended for a mature audience.

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<v Speaker 1>Listener discretion is advised. Apparently Nicole wants to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>chickens in our intro.

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<v Speaker 2>I just said, what are we talking? I can't even

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<v Speaker 2>talk in our intro, we are distracted by chickens. We're

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<v Speaker 2>buying more chickens because we have a problem, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we were warned about this.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, chicken math is apparently a real thing. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna go buy some more chickens tomorrow, which will be

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<v Speaker 1>the same day you guys are listening to this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, that's cool, more chickens.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, we did lose one chicken, which is very sad,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was due to our dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>M hm.

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<v Speaker 2>So we lost one chicken, and we're replacing that one

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<v Speaker 2>chicken with three chickens.

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<v Speaker 1>Chicken math. That's how it works.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there we go.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm going to jump straight into thanking our patrons though,

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<v Speaker 1>let's do it. Okay, So yesterday or yeah, I guess

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<v Speaker 1>by the time you guys listened to this, it'll be yesterday.

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<v Speaker 1>New episode exclusive end of the month one showed up

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<v Speaker 1>in Patreon.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what was it?

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<v Speaker 1>Titled? The Great Teddy Bear Massacre? And trust me, it

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<v Speaker 1>is as wild as it seems with that's awesome. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so I'm gonna go ahead and thank our patrons has

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<v Speaker 1>signed up this past week. We have Gabrielle de Chezer,

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<v Speaker 1>Kristen Wells, DJ Jewle. Thank you DJ for actually telling

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<v Speaker 1>us how to say your name over in Patreon, shot

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<v Speaker 1>us a message appreciate that, Sarah Timberman and Alita Lanaire's

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<v Speaker 1>right on, so they all get that access to not

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<v Speaker 1>only this past exclusive episode, but all the exclusive episodes

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<v Speaker 1>and all the extra content on their Yeah, boom boo.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a good place. It's fun time over there.

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<v Speaker 1>It is. It's a I don't know, it's just a

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<v Speaker 1>nice little place to.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just chill and Yeah, it's a little our little

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<v Speaker 2>supportive community. I love it.

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<v Speaker 1>Our patrons are awesome.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but anyone that's listening to this is awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course. No, I wasn't excluding anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, I felt like I may be almost was,

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean we have said it many times. We

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<v Speaker 2>think everybody that is listening to this right at this

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<v Speaker 2>very moment is awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>I just I'm thinking of the Lego movie theme song.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is awesome, so awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we have anything else we really want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about today?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>We've just been stupid basically this.

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<v Speaker 2>On because I'm not looking forward to just.

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<v Speaker 1>Drag it on. Uh, this is going to be a

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<v Speaker 1>heavy case. In my research, this case generally goes alongside

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<v Speaker 1>the story of Junco Faruda as well, so very brutal,

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<v Speaker 1>very heavy. I will say this, the details are not

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<v Speaker 1>as graphic in this case, but deafly similar occurrences.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you did a last minute change. I was

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<v Speaker 2>looking forward. I need to actually clarify because I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like in the Patreon episode, I was like, yeah, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>really looking forward to this next case, but then you

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<v Speaker 2>did a last minute switch through and I'm not so

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<v Speaker 2>much looking forward to this anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, the one case I was going to do,

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<v Speaker 1>I need more research time, So I'm going to be

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<v Speaker 1>pushing that off a little while, keep that in the

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<v Speaker 1>back burner, and keep chugging along in that research until

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<v Speaker 1>it's ready. You know, simmer it up. Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like a marinera sauce, you gotta simmer is really important.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't just rush that shit. You gotta simmer it.

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<v Speaker 1>You gotta let it, you know, get its stuff all

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<v Speaker 1>flowy and stuff. If you know what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 2>I know what you're saying, but I was an interesting

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<v Speaker 2>way of saying it.

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<v Speaker 1>Simmer.

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<v Speaker 2>I just felt like I need to clarify so that

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<v Speaker 2>all of our patrons weren't like wow, Nicle is like.

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<v Speaker 1>Like nuts, No, it's like.

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<v Speaker 2>So pumped for this episode. What was wrong with ner?

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<v Speaker 1>I think they understand. So I think we're good. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you ready to jump into this?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's do it.

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<v Speaker 1>It is the story, as I said of Kelly Ann Bates,

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of brutality. I'll say that again. And it

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<v Speaker 1>begins on April sixteenth, in nineteen ninety six, not that

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<v Speaker 1>old really, No, So this is the Greater Manchester Police

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<v Speaker 1>who received a call. This is OPRAH in the UK.

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<v Speaker 1>They received a very distressing phone call from a man

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<v Speaker 1>whose name was James Patterson Smith. Now James was Kelly's boyfriend.

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<v Speaker 1>They lived together right and on the call he reported

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<v Speaker 1>a extremely tragic accidental drowning of his girlfriend. So, according

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<v Speaker 1>to James, he had actually accidentally killed her during an

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<v Speaker 1>argument when they were in the bath together. Oh wow,

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<v Speaker 1>So at one point during said argument, she had accidentally

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<v Speaker 1>inhaled some of the bath water and began drowning as

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<v Speaker 1>a result. He then tried to assist and once she

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<v Speaker 1>passed out, tried to resuscitate her, but he was unsuccess

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<v Speaker 1>successful and she then deceased.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was like the story that he was saying,

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<v Speaker 2>is what happened?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, so this is what he reported to the police.

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<v Speaker 1>And as I mentioned, Kelly was only sixteen when she died. So, however,

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<v Speaker 1>what unfolded next was a horrifying revelation. James was very

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<v Speaker 1>soon placed under arrest because the scene at his residence

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<v Speaker 1>surpassed anything the authorities had in as far as expectations.

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<v Speaker 1>You see, Kelly was not only found lifeless when they

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<v Speaker 1>approached the scene. When they came to James's.

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<v Speaker 2>House was expected, I'm assuming yes.

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<v Speaker 1>But the house was smeared with her blood and she

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<v Speaker 1>bore dozens of appalling injuries across her body from a drowning,

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<v Speaker 1>from an apparent drowning.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, that is definitely not the scene you would

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<v Speaker 2>be expecting.

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<v Speaker 1>No, when authorities came and saw this, they immediately realize

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<v Speaker 1>this was not an accident. What they were looking at,

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<v Speaker 1>what they were standing in was a murder scene.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and was this guy like like unwell for literally

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like just inviting them here to this where

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<v Speaker 2>he's showcasing that he is obviously really disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he might have just thought he'd just get

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<v Speaker 1>away with it. How, I don't know. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand his thought process there either. I tried

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<v Speaker 1>to contemplate that several times on my own, and I cannot.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't fathom a single instance where he thought he

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<v Speaker 1>would get away with it or where it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>I just can't.

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<v Speaker 2>M m.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, unless it was just sheer panic and he's like

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<v Speaker 1>I got a call for help because maybe.

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<v Speaker 2>He realized what he'd.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we got to get into the story, Okay, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we do, and before we dive too deep into all

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<v Speaker 1>these details. Let's take a step back and talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the relationship between James and Kelly, because it's very important. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So it all starts one day when Margaret Bates was

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<v Speaker 1>returning home to find her sixteen year old daughter Kelly

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<v Speaker 1>standing in the kitchen. Now, unbeknownst to Margaret, Kelly had

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<v Speaker 1>brought home her boyfriend, James Patterson Smith. So she brought

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<v Speaker 1>him home for the first time to kind of, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>meet the family, right, and this was the first time

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<v Speaker 1>that she was hearing anything about said boyfriend. Now, this,

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<v Speaker 1>of course doesn't sound too horrific. I mean, unless you

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<v Speaker 1>have a fear of realizing your children are actually inevitably

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<v Speaker 1>growing up and going to start dating and moving out

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<v Speaker 1>and all this sort of stuff. You know, they're not

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<v Speaker 1>just innocent children, right, unless that's your fearing, This seems

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<v Speaker 1>like a harmless situation.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, because at sixteen, I imagine quite a few

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<v Speaker 2>people like they start having significant others ish, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they start dating, entering the dating pool and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty sure this is not an abnormal thing for

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<v Speaker 1>someone that age. Now to Margaret, though, she did have

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of a horrifying situation. She had the sound

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<v Speaker 1>of footsteps coming down the hall, and she turned around

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<v Speaker 1>to see James standing there, and her horrifying situation was this.

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<v Speaker 1>Her jaw immediately dropped and to put it in her

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<v Speaker 1>own words, quote, the hairs on the back of my

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<v Speaker 1>neck went up.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh.

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<v Speaker 1>Seriously, Yes, h James was not just a boy that

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<v Speaker 1>her daughter was dating. In fact, he wasn't just an

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<v Speaker 1>older boy. As Kelly had so put it. She was

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<v Speaker 1>standing in front of a man who had some grays

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<v Speaker 1>in his hairs and some crows feet on the corner

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<v Speaker 1>of his eye. Kelly had informed her mother that James

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<v Speaker 1>was in fact thirty two years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, which I mean at thirty two you'd have grays

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<v Speaker 2>and you'd had crow's feet.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but she's sixteen sixteen? I forgot how y, yes, holy.

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<v Speaker 1>Shit, Okay, that just you're like, oh, yeah, you can

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<v Speaker 1>have some grips shit at thirty two. What's wrong with that?

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<v Speaker 1>He's dating someone sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>I missed the point, like that's actually illegal.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's statutory rate.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, sorry, I missed the Uh. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what the word is there, but the rising action, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>You the info. In a later interview, Margaret would actually

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<v Speaker 1>admit to having an unsettling urge in that moment, to

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<v Speaker 1>picking up a knife that was sitting in the kitchen

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<v Speaker 1>and stabbing James in the back right then, right there. Really, Hey, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>she had this immediate urge when she saw him. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>little did she know that her motherly instincts would prove

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<v Speaker 1>be a tragic prediction for things to come.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that is so bizarre. I actually can't really ever

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<v Speaker 2>recall a moment where you've met someone and you get

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of feeling, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, Yeah, it's uh, it's not something I can say

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<v Speaker 1>I've really had where I'm like, oh, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>stab his bitch in the back. Well, it's not something

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<v Speaker 1>I've had.

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<v Speaker 2>Even the hairs kind of raising on your neck like that,

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<v Speaker 2>that's like really alarming.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, that's intense. That's very intense. So, I mean, Margaret's

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<v Speaker 1>just standing there staring in disbelief at this man that

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<v Speaker 1>her sixteen year old daughter has now brought home, and

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<v Speaker 1>she had no idea lies in the history that had

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<v Speaker 1>actually already been behind them and their relationship, because James

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't thirty two years old. That was a lie he

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<v Speaker 1>was actually forty eight years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, forty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Forty eight years old seeing a sixteen year old? Oh

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<v Speaker 1>my god, yeah, try and swallow that fucking pill.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, could that almost be her grandfather?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean technically technically that you probably could.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she's really disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So of course the two decided to lie about

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<v Speaker 1>the age to kind of draw back a bit, to

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<v Speaker 1>try and like soften the blow in any potential backlas.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh did she know that he was actually forty eight

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<v Speaker 2>years old?

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<v Speaker 1>No, okay, thirty two. They told her thirty two, so

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<v Speaker 1>that's what she believed.

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<v Speaker 2>No, sorry, the daughter, Oh, the daughter knew that he

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<v Speaker 2>was actually forty eight years old. Correct, seriously correct? Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I'm not super opposed to like age gaps

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff in relationships because I've known some people that

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<v Speaker 2>have age gaps and it seems like it can work.

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<v Speaker 2>But that is a bit much.

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<v Speaker 1>This is not an age gap. This, as I said,

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<v Speaker 1>is statia ory rape. You are a minor. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>this dude is like almost a decade off getting a

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<v Speaker 1>fucking senior citizen discount. Like what the fuck? Well, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>a little more than a decade, but still, you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, so, yeah, it was quite the shocking situation

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<v Speaker 1>to be putting in, being put in when your daughter's

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<v Speaker 1>just like, oh, yeah, here's my boyfriend. He's thirty two.

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<v Speaker 1>So the daughter knows he's actually forty eight, but the family,

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<v Speaker 1>the parents think thirty two. Now, that's not the end

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<v Speaker 1>of their lie. They had also not just recently started dating.

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<v Speaker 1>They started dating when Kelly was fourteen and James was

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<v Speaker 1>forty six.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, yeah, this guy, okay, he has to be

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<v Speaker 3>like manipulating her because something this that is just like

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<v Speaker 3>not right.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, there's definite manipulation going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Fourteen and forty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct, fourteen and forty six when they okay, still I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not blaming Kelly one fucking iota. Yeah, like she is

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<v Speaker 1>wholeheartedly being manipulated. Yeah, this sick fuck.

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<v Speaker 2>Because he would know better, and she is just like young.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's just like, oh, this older guy is interested

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<v Speaker 1>in me. It seems so cool. He seems so nice,

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<v Speaker 1>he likes me. Maybe it's like because I'm acting older

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<v Speaker 1>than girls my age sort of thing, and apparently I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's like a line these kind of fucking sickos do. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>holy okay, And so rightfully. So, Kelly's parents were not

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<v Speaker 1>impressed even with the idea of him being thirty two,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone, if they actually knew he.

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<v Speaker 2>Was forty eight, they would have lost their fucking mind.

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<v Speaker 1>You bet. But still, against their better judgment, they decided

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<v Speaker 1>to let their daughter continue the relationship after all, she

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<v Speaker 1>was happy.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's hard, though, because the thing is, if they

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<v Speaker 2>would have liked for it, forbid her from seeing him,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, she could have still found a way and

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<v Speaker 2>then she's sneaking around exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's so hard exactly. That was kind of the

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<v Speaker 1>stipulation with this relationship is that there still needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be communication and like things need to be open and

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening and yeah, so the parents were like, we're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to stop this because I don't think we can,

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<v Speaker 1>but like, there's gonna be some fucking ground rules here. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So I can't knock the parents for that. I totally understand. However,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, and I know a lot of people disagree

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<v Speaker 1>with this too, because they're like they not everyone can

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<v Speaker 1>totally get it. But the idea of hey, maybe reporting

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<v Speaker 1>someone like that to the police, it's not a bad idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, yeah, I mean, but really, they're probably thinking

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<v Speaker 2>that their relationship with their daughter is on the line, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's true.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's it's really really tough. But also that oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, that's it's it's too much.

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00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:03.720
<v Speaker 1>It is, but we digress a little bit. Let's keep

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<v Speaker 1>moving on here. It would be November nineteen ninety five,

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<v Speaker 1>not long after this initial meeting in the kitchen, that

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00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Kelly would take the steps to move in with her

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<v Speaker 1>significant other and at the time unemployed James. Now, as

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<v Speaker 1>I said, although her parents are skeptical of the relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>they're also skeptical of this decision, but they agreed in

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00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:30.200
<v Speaker 1>the conditions that she would keep in regular contact, so

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00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>it's like, you come see us, we talk lots, all

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00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.200
<v Speaker 1>that sort of stuff kind of so they can still

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<v Speaker 1>be a parent.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know what to say to that, because

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<v Speaker 2>that the moving in thing.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's tough.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, regardless of the situation, she went and moved

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<v Speaker 1>in with them, and regardless of the deal, the following months,

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00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.399
<v Speaker 1>Kelly's once outgoing demeanor and keeping in touch with her

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00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:59.759
<v Speaker 1>parents slowly changed, and she was much more quieter and

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00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.240
<v Speaker 1>with drawn, and the parents were hearing from her less

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00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:07.559
<v Speaker 1>and less. So during a rare visit, her parents actually

305
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:14.799
<v Speaker 1>noticed something some bruises on her arms. Oh geez, which

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00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:20.200
<v Speaker 1>we're signaling some more worrisome events in the future. There

307
00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.279
<v Speaker 1>were a lot of interesting signs in this case, not

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00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.400
<v Speaker 1>to say that people need to be aware of these signs,

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00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.039
<v Speaker 1>and it's like, hey, you should have seen and you

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00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.200
<v Speaker 1>should have been able to know. Not blaming anyone in

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00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.119
<v Speaker 1>that say that sense whatsoever, just saying looking on it

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00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.720
<v Speaker 1>in a hindsight perspective, it's like, holy fuck, there's all

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00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.279
<v Speaker 1>these little tiny things.

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00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, even when you said that she was kind of

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00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.759
<v Speaker 2>not as outgoing and stuff anymore, Like what just came

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00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:46.839
<v Speaker 2>to my mind. It was like he was like dimming

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00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.799
<v Speaker 2>her light. Yeah, which is so sad.

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00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:55.519
<v Speaker 1>That's a very interesting way of putting it. Yeah, So

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk a little bit about James. Prior to his

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00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.960
<v Speaker 1>involvement with the teenage Kelly, he had a rather troublesome

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00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.039
<v Speaker 1>history regarding assaulting women that he lived with.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome, So this guy's a fucking winner and a half.

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00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, he's a piece of shit, full on piece of shit.

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<v Speaker 1>He had accusations of physical violence and assault, one that

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00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.519
<v Speaker 1>actually marked the end of his first marriage after ten

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00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:26.319
<v Speaker 1>years together in nineteen eighty so, then between nineteen eighty

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00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:31.319
<v Speaker 1>and nineteen eighty two, while still technically married, he would

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00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:34.519
<v Speaker 1>have an affair with a twenty year old named Tina Watson,

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00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:41.359
<v Speaker 1>who he reportedly used as a quote punching bag, yes,

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00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:47.519
<v Speaker 1>deserving violence that didn't cease while she was pregnant as well.

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00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, okay yep.

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00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.839
<v Speaker 1>At one point he tried to strangle and drown her

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00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:03.000
<v Speaker 1>while she was in the bath. Wow, okay, so real

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00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:04.920
<v Speaker 1>quick here before you say something, because I know you're

335
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.240
<v Speaker 1>about to. Luckily for her. However, she did manage to

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00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.559
<v Speaker 1>get away from James and the whole abusive relationship that

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00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.799
<v Speaker 1>she found herself in. So that's fantastic. She got out

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00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:16.279
<v Speaker 1>of that relationship and she was sure she and the

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00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:17.359
<v Speaker 1>child were safe.

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00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:18.319
<v Speaker 2>That's good.

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00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you were going to say something.

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00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't.

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00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Actually, Oh no, you're just just gasping with sho.

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00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I like, my eyeballs are just like bulging out of

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00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:27.799
<v Speaker 2>my head here.

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00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.200
<v Speaker 1>From here, James would find himself in another relationship, in

347
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:36.279
<v Speaker 1>another statutory rape relationship in fact, with a fifteen year

348
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:39.079
<v Speaker 1>old whose name I have chosen to leave out of

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00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:43.319
<v Speaker 1>this podcast. She also found James to be very physically

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00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:46.799
<v Speaker 1>abusive towards her, and in one attack, he held her

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00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.319
<v Speaker 1>face underwater in the kitchen sink in an attempt to

352
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:57.119
<v Speaker 1>drown her. Luckily she survived. Wow. In nineteen ninety three,

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00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.920
<v Speaker 1>James began his relationship with fourteen year old Kelly, which

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00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.640
<v Speaker 1>brings us up to date where authorities were called and

355
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.839
<v Speaker 1>found Kelly's lifeless body and James was apprehended.

356
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:11.839
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, please tell me that this guy is

357
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:13.960
<v Speaker 2>just going to be locked away for the rest of

358
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.599
<v Speaker 2>his life.

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00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't think you're gonna be happy with the results

360
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:17.799
<v Speaker 1>of this case.

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00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:19.799
<v Speaker 2>You're fucking serious.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna say that.

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00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:23.559
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I will.

364
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Rage, I will rage.

365
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.960
<v Speaker 2>This tiny house will be turned upside down.

366
00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:34.240
<v Speaker 1>I might be fucking found drowned after this podcast. So

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00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:39.680
<v Speaker 1>the scene authorities arrived at once James called them was

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00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.400
<v Speaker 1>not something authorities were able to stomach very easy. They

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00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.720
<v Speaker 1>had found sixteen year old Kelly naked in the bedroom floor.

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00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.400
<v Speaker 1>Her blood was found smudged and smeared to some degree

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00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.079
<v Speaker 1>in every single room of the house, which was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the first indications that something just wasn't right. Her

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00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:05.799
<v Speaker 1>body of course was another There were several physical injuries

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00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.400
<v Speaker 1>that covered Kelly's body that did not line up with

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00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:13.279
<v Speaker 1>a simple drowning, and when taken in for examination and autopsy,

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00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 1>that's when the true realization regarding the extent of the

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00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.920
<v Speaker 1>situation came to light.

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00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean he honestly, it doesn't make sense, but

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00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.079
<v Speaker 2>it makes sense that he's gotten away with everything prior

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00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.799
<v Speaker 2>to right that he now he's just like up leveling it. Yeah,

381
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.440
<v Speaker 2>But to think that he would get away with something

382
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:39.119
<v Speaker 2>where there's blood in every room, Yes, that like you

383
00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.160
<v Speaker 2>almost have to wonder if he's gone off the deep

384
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>end here.

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00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.079
<v Speaker 1>I think he's been getting away with things and I

386
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:48.799
<v Speaker 1>think he had. I think it's a power trip thing.

387
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:53.000
<v Speaker 1>We've covered cases before in episodes where guys like get

388
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:54.839
<v Speaker 1>off on this sort of shit, right, Like it's a

389
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.200
<v Speaker 1>power trip, like I can make you do what I

390
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:04.400
<v Speaker 1>want or whatever, And I think that's what it is here. Yeah,

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00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.119
<v Speaker 1>let's go into some more details with regarding her autopsy

392
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:08.920
<v Speaker 1>year because I don't want to be giving away too many things.

393
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:13.960
<v Speaker 1>So the examination of her body revealed over one hundred

394
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:19.240
<v Speaker 1>and fifty separate physical injuries to Kelly, and they were

395
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.039
<v Speaker 1>able to identify that these injuries were occurring over the

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00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:27.440
<v Speaker 1>course of the last month of her life. So for

397
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.079
<v Speaker 1>an entirety of a month she.

398
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Was enduring the shit.

399
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.319
<v Speaker 1>Yes. So also you have to think of the fact

400
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.200
<v Speaker 1>that at the age sixteen you bounce back and heal

401
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:40.839
<v Speaker 1>pretty quick. So how many bruises and such would have

402
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.839
<v Speaker 1>healed over the course of a month as well?

403
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:44.680
<v Speaker 2>That's true, yep.

404
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.799
<v Speaker 1>So regarding that last month of her life as well,

405
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.720
<v Speaker 1>they were able to determine that she was kept bound

406
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.000
<v Speaker 1>in the house for the entirety of it. At times

407
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.839
<v Speaker 1>she would have been tied up by her hair even

408
00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:04.480
<v Speaker 1>two items ch as chairs or radiators. Other times she

409
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.279
<v Speaker 1>was tied and bound around the neck. But one way

410
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:12.359
<v Speaker 1>or another she would have been bound for the remainder of.

411
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.880
<v Speaker 2>That monthly, a whole entire month.

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00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes. So A man by the name of William Lawler,

413
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.839
<v Speaker 1>the Home Office pathologist who examined Kelly's remains, had this

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00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.119
<v Speaker 1>to say, quote, in my career, I have examined almost

415
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:34.200
<v Speaker 1>six hundred victims of homicide, but I have never come

416
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:43.359
<v Speaker 1>across injuries so extensive that right there paints a brutal picture.

417
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.200
<v Speaker 1>He's saying, I've never.

418
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Seen this like, that's like a one in six hundred, yeah, and.

419
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.519
<v Speaker 1>This is like way above all these other six hundred.

420
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:54.920
<v Speaker 1>It's like, oh, it's like it's close for the worst,

421
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.359
<v Speaker 1>and it's.

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00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.079
<v Speaker 2>Like, no, it's my far the worst.

423
00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So some of the injuries that had found on

424
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Kelly and her body included the following scalding to her

425
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.880
<v Speaker 1>left butt, cheek, and left leg, burns on her thighs

426
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:16.559
<v Speaker 1>caused by the application of a hot iron, a fractured arm,

427
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:23.119
<v Speaker 1>multiple stab wounds caused by knives, forks, and scissors, stab

428
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Speaker 1>wounds inside of her mouth, crush injuries to both of

429
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:34.720
<v Speaker 1>her hands, mutilation of her ears, nose, eyebrows, mouth lips,

430
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:40.799
<v Speaker 1>genitalia wounds caused by a spade, a shovel, spade, and

431
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:48.200
<v Speaker 1>pruny shears. Both of her eyes had been gouged out. Later,

432
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.519
<v Speaker 1>stab wounds were found in the empty sockets of her eyes,

433
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and she was partially scalped. The pathologist was able to

434
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:03.519
<v Speaker 1>determine that Kelly endured her eyes being gouged out, quote

435
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.720
<v Speaker 1>not less than five days and more than three weeks

436
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:13.640
<v Speaker 1>before her death, so she lived at least five days

437
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:21.160
<v Speaker 1>after having her eyes gouged from her head. They were

438
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.319
<v Speaker 1>also able to find that she had been starved in

439
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:28.079
<v Speaker 1>the weeks leading to her death. She had lost approximately

440
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 1>twenty kilograms twenty kilograms, not pounds, that would be equivalent

441
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.839
<v Speaker 1>to forty four pounds. The starvation would have also included

442
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:41.279
<v Speaker 1>not being allowed to drink water or any other fluids

443
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:48.119
<v Speaker 1>for several days she endured. Absolute hell, holy shit, this

444
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:50.279
<v Speaker 1>poor fucking girl.

445
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I cannot even believe that someone would do something

446
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.599
<v Speaker 2>like that to another human being, right, like wow, And gosh,

447
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.240
<v Speaker 2>you gave even some details I had. I was wondering

448
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:03.880
<v Speaker 2>about the eyes, Like I was like, oh, maybe that

449
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.160
<v Speaker 2>happened like after she died, but nope.

450
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Nope, prior to days prior to wow.

451
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:16.839
<v Speaker 2>Wow, So like was this literally his just his motive

452
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the whole entire time?

453
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:20.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

454
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:27.559
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, like that is so disturbing. I am just like

455
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:29.480
<v Speaker 2>shook out of my fucking mind.

456
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, see what I mean? How this one gets kind

457
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.480
<v Speaker 1>of like total long in the same sort of lines

458
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.880
<v Speaker 1>as Junco quite often. Yeah, because when I was researching Junco,

459
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe I've ever run across this case, but

460
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.839
<v Speaker 1>when I was researching this case, they seem to go

461
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:45.359
<v Speaker 1>hand in hand very often when I was researching articles,

462
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:47.599
<v Speaker 1>a lot of them be like after you're done reading

463
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.480
<v Speaker 1>this article, at the bottom, it's like, you may enjoy

464
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.920
<v Speaker 1>this article or whatever, and then it link would link

465
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:53.160
<v Speaker 1>to like a Junco one or something.

466
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:53.920
<v Speaker 2>No, thank you.

467
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So I can't believe what this This young woman

468
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.880
<v Speaker 1>was put through absolute hell for someone that she thought

469
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:06.799
<v Speaker 1>was he was there for her and love.

470
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like so messed so messed.

471
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:13.559
<v Speaker 1>Up, so fucked up. Which it almost makes this one

472
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:18.759
<v Speaker 1>worse than Junko in the fact on who was the perpetrator.

473
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:22.799
<v Speaker 1>This was supposed to be someone she could love, trust, yeah,

474
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 1>live with. She chose to move in with this person,

475
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.000
<v Speaker 1>well that count me wrong like Junko, Like I'm not

476
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.680
<v Speaker 1>comparing cases by any means, Like Junko was absolutely horrifying too.

477
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.480
<v Speaker 1>But this was supposed to be someone that Kelly could

478
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:36.440
<v Speaker 1>have trusted.

479
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Because there was a bunch of lead up to this,

480
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Like it was just I mean the intention of this

481
00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:46.759
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning, you know, he probably had this endgame

482
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>and which is really disturbing, Like it I kind of

483
00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:52.559
<v Speaker 2>almost went on longer, you know what I'm trying to

484
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.680
<v Speaker 2>say here, Yeah, like which, yeah, wow, that this guy

485
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:57.039
<v Speaker 2>is a.

486
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:01.359
<v Speaker 1>Like is just an absolute fucking mom Say, I.

487
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.599
<v Speaker 2>Need a word worse than monster because this is really disturbing.

488
00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, the trial for James began shortly thereafter, and

489
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:16.680
<v Speaker 1>the prosecution meticulously presented the details of the torture that

490
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:20.240
<v Speaker 1>Kelly would have endured to the jury, many of which

491
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:23.960
<v Speaker 1>after the trial would have to seek counseling for the details.

492
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:28.759
<v Speaker 1>In this case, the prosecutor in the trial, Peter Openshaw,

493
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 1>had this to say, in the case, it was as

494
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:37.640
<v Speaker 1>if he deliberately disfigured her, causing her the utmost pain, distress,

495
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.200
<v Speaker 1>and degradation. The injuries were not the result of one

496
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.799
<v Speaker 1>sudden eruption of violence. They must have been caused over

497
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 1>a long period that were so extensive and so terrible

498
00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:55.400
<v Speaker 1>that the defendant must have deliberately and systematically tortured the girl.

499
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.880
<v Speaker 1>And I think he's absolutely right in that statement. So

500
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Kelly's official death was indeed drowning, but not before she

501
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.559
<v Speaker 1>received the brutal beating in the head with a shower head.

502
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh.

503
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:18.799
<v Speaker 1>Peter Openshaw, the UH prosecutor, also remarked her death must

504
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:21.640
<v Speaker 1>have been a merciful end to her torture.

505
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Huh. Well, I mean at that point, like she's probably

506
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.480
<v Speaker 2>just like begging for that, yes, And.

507
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:32.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that's kind of what he means, is that

508
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 1>she was almost thankful for that end, which is so

509
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:37.480
<v Speaker 1>terrifying to think about.

510
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Holy well, and then the other thing because yeah, for

511
00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.279
<v Speaker 2>this literally to be going on for like that long

512
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:47.559
<v Speaker 2>of a span is what I mean, because yeah, like

513
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.000
<v Speaker 2>the one said, like it wasn't just a fit of rage,

514
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>like this went on for a really long time.

515
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:57.000
<v Speaker 1>It did over approximately the course of a month.

516
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I still can't get over now that we've

517
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:04.480
<v Speaker 2>heard like what her body look like, that he actually

518
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.319
<v Speaker 2>phoned the police to call this in and didn't like

519
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:09.119
<v Speaker 2>go about hiding it, Like I'm like.

520
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.440
<v Speaker 1>That's fucked yep.

521
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.759
<v Speaker 2>So it's almost like he wanted to be caught or.

522
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.519
<v Speaker 1>Something maybe or he was just so confident because he's

523
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.720
<v Speaker 1>been getting away with it this whole time that oh, yeah,

524
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 1>they'll just believe me. And that's that. But I do

525
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.359
<v Speaker 1>think that, like when I say that there was blood

526
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.960
<v Speaker 1>throughout the house, I actually couldn't find detail on how

527
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.640
<v Speaker 1>much blood. My assumption is that the blood was not hey,

528
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.359
<v Speaker 1>spatter from a kill. It's simply just there's blood traced

529
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:40.759
<v Speaker 1>throughout the house from over the course.

530
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Of the entire month of being tortured.

531
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:46.759
<v Speaker 1>Yes, like a fingerprint here, a drop there, Yeah, a

532
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:50.000
<v Speaker 1>smudge there, like that sort of stuff. A cloth being

533
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:52.720
<v Speaker 1>soaked in blood, thrown in the hamper of the laundry,

534
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:53.519
<v Speaker 1>things like that.

535
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because honestly, when you first mentioned that, I was

536
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of thinking like that. They that he went around

537
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.000
<v Speaker 2>and smeared it.

538
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:03.960
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, yeah, So throughout the trial, some of the

539
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 1>women who had also suffered abuse to the hems of

540
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:12.519
<v Speaker 1>James bravely came forward and they helped painted a very

541
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:16.519
<v Speaker 1>disturbing picture of a misogynistic man consumed by jealousy who

542
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:21.039
<v Speaker 1>would resort to violence to exert control over others. So

543
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.200
<v Speaker 1>hats off to them for standing. Oh yeah, because that

544
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.599
<v Speaker 1>would have been difficult.

545
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.880
<v Speaker 2>No kidding, that's so good that they were there.

546
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:32.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. James and his defense team, however, attempted to cast

547
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.359
<v Speaker 1>him as the victim. Yeah that was my reaction to,

548
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:42.480
<v Speaker 1>just fucking laugh, claiming basically that Kelly's actions had driven

549
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:47.160
<v Speaker 1>him to commit the act. He said, quote, she put

550
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 1>me through hell, constantly provoking me.

551
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:55.880
<v Speaker 2>She was sixteen years old, You motherfucker. Yeah, sixteen years old,

552
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:56.640
<v Speaker 2>and I don't.

553
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.079
<v Speaker 1>Give a shit if someone's provoking you. You don't provoke.

554
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.960
<v Speaker 1>You don't get provoked to torture someone for a fucking month.

555
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Like nothing would provoke that could provoke that. No, in

556
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.519
<v Speaker 2>my opinion, just leave.

557
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Then, exactly so, I mean even going as far as

558
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.880
<v Speaker 1>to suggesting that some of her injuries were actually self

559
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.880
<v Speaker 1>inflicted to tarnish his image and name. So yeah, that's

560
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.839
<v Speaker 1>what he's going on saying, I'm the victim. She's doing

561
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.240
<v Speaker 1>this to me, and she provoked me into doing this.

562
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.759
<v Speaker 1>The jury luckily saw right fucking through this manipulation tactic.

563
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, and they swiftly came with a verdict finding

564
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:37.160
<v Speaker 1>him guilty on murder of Kelly and Bates.

565
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 2>They probably just like low, like just hated him. Yes,

566
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Like I don't think if I was on that jury, Like,

567
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:45.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't even think I would be able to look

568
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:46.599
<v Speaker 2>at him.

569
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:53.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just gross, I agree. So on November nineteenth, nineteen

570
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:58.480
<v Speaker 1>ninety seven, James was sentenced to a minimum of twenty

571
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:02.599
<v Speaker 1>years in prison, and he currently sits there to this day.

572
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.839
<v Speaker 1>And this is where I don't think you'll be happy,

573
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.039
<v Speaker 1>because I'm not happy twenty years is not enough.

574
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how on earth is it only twenty years?

575
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:13.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Not enough? I mean it minimum. But still he

576
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:15.640
<v Speaker 1>could get out in four years.

577
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.480
<v Speaker 2>And he would be how old, like in his sixties

578
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:21.799
<v Speaker 2>or early seventies or something.

579
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd be like sixty eight or sixty nine something

580
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:24.279
<v Speaker 1>like that.

581
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.359
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, so like enough time to do this

582
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 2>again and he would Yeah, like there is no way

583
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:34.279
<v Speaker 2>that that man should be like outside of prison.

584
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.279
<v Speaker 1>No life. And then some because this wasn't just like

585
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:42.039
<v Speaker 1>a manslaughter or some like fucking murder. No, he systematically

586
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:46.480
<v Speaker 1>tortured and fucking murdered her, Yeah, brutally, not to mention

587
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.200
<v Speaker 1>any sort of statutory rape charges that should have been applied,

588
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:50.880
<v Speaker 1>which clearly weren't.

589
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.319
<v Speaker 2>You know, these some I just can't understand sometimes the

590
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 2>sentencing because like the last case we did right where

591
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:03.000
<v Speaker 2>they had murdered their basically, yeah, they got like years

592
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:07.240
<v Speaker 2>upon years. Yeah, and like I mean that was terrible too,

593
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:11.000
<v Speaker 2>but like this is worse. Really, I'm not like comparing them,

594
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:15.079
<v Speaker 2>but like what he did, like he should never well beyond.

595
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.840
<v Speaker 1>They got more for murder. This is murder, torture, stay

596
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:20.000
<v Speaker 1>rate much more.

597
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.920
<v Speaker 2>There's way there's more like charges really, but it's less

598
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:25.159
<v Speaker 2>way less time.

599
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:28.760
<v Speaker 1>Now. I do understand there's different jurisdictions, there's different legislations

600
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>for different areas and states and all this sort of stuff.

601
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:33.920
<v Speaker 1>This is over in the UK as well, so I

602
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.039
<v Speaker 1>mean this is a completely different country at that. But

603
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.400
<v Speaker 1>still it should be life. He should be behind bars

604
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:41.320
<v Speaker 1>for fucking life.

605
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like never getting out questions asked.

606
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:47.800
<v Speaker 1>But he could potentially walk free in a few years.

607
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:49.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh that is so disturbing.

608
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's one of the worst parts about this to

609
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.079
<v Speaker 1>me is that he could go free and not to

610
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>mention that in the trial. He's like, oh, yeah, it's

611
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.119
<v Speaker 1>her fault. So that's telling me, that's telling me right there,

612
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.039
<v Speaker 1>He's not learning a fucking thing. He wasn't remorseful.

613
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.559
<v Speaker 2>No, he probably wants to do again.

614
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:11.920
<v Speaker 1>Probably so anyways, the murder of Kelly and Bates remains

615
00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:15.159
<v Speaker 1>one of the most horrifying crimes in British history, and

616
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.199
<v Speaker 1>Margaret Bates, Kelly's mother, is still haunted by that moment

617
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.840
<v Speaker 1>in the kitchen where she first encountered him, constantly flashing

618
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:24.639
<v Speaker 1>back to the moment where she had an instinct to

619
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:29.039
<v Speaker 1>end his life right then and there, and she wonders

620
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:30.719
<v Speaker 1>if it kind of might have been some sort of

621
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.079
<v Speaker 1>sixth sense warninger of the tragedy that would come to

622
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:35.920
<v Speaker 1>her daughter later on.

623
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh that is so sad. It is Oh man, yikes.

624
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.239
<v Speaker 1>And that's the story of Kelly and Bates.

625
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that is quite the story.

626
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is so.

627
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:51.480
<v Speaker 2>I guess you need to leave for a bit so

628
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.920
<v Speaker 2>I can destroy this tiny house with range.

629
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.800
<v Speaker 1>She's just a fit of fucking rage.

630
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:01.679
<v Speaker 2>Wow. Wow. Yeah, that would have been a tough one

631
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:02.280
<v Speaker 2>of research.

632
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.079
<v Speaker 1>It was. I kind of didn't want to. I didn't

633
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:09.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I don't know how to say this.

634
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I didn't really want to go into details on this

635
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:15.440
<v Speaker 1>one too much. I'm kind of glad that I didn't

636
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.119
<v Speaker 1>go in so much. I'm sure I'm sitting here saying like, oh,

637
00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:21.599
<v Speaker 1>you know what, the details were harder to find. I

638
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:23.159
<v Speaker 1>think I said that at the beginning of the episode.

639
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure if the details were harder to find

640
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:26.400
<v Speaker 1>her if I just didn't want to find them.

641
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:29.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, honestly, I feel like you gave us enough detail.

642
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:30.639
<v Speaker 1>I think so too.

643
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:31.519
<v Speaker 2>That is enough.

644
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:35.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't know it really we want anymore. No, I

645
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.360
<v Speaker 1>certainly don't. I feel so bad for this poor girl.

646
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:42.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, like that is so young, and this guy,

647
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:44.480
<v Speaker 2>the fact that he could be kind of getting out

648
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:48.480
<v Speaker 2>of jail is like that's haunting. That's so haunting.

649
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:49.519
<v Speaker 1>I hope he doesn't.

650
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Well honest, oh, I can't. I shouldn't say this.

651
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Never mind what No, I can't say, you have to

652
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>say it now.

653
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was just like, if that mom is a

654
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.079
<v Speaker 2>lot for him to get out of jail, like I would,

655
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.559
<v Speaker 2>I would go and do unthinkable things.

656
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Which I mean, I'm sure that mom is thinking the

657
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.280
<v Speaker 1>same thing. Yeah, but two wrongs don't make the right.

658
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna say that. I'm not gonna say I disagree

659
00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:18.280
<v Speaker 1>with you, but I will say two wrongs don't make

660
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:18.599
<v Speaker 1>a right.

661
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, yeah, he would need to have like

662
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:26.000
<v Speaker 2>identity change and all that stuff, because, like I, I

663
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.400
<v Speaker 2>honestly can't believe that he's even surviving in jail, to

664
00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:29.920
<v Speaker 2>be honest.

665
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, actually I'm actually surprised.

666
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:33.239
<v Speaker 2>When you think about it.

667
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, but I hope he fucking rots. I hope

668
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.960
<v Speaker 1>he never gets out. I hope he fucking rots and

669
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:42.280
<v Speaker 1>fuck him.

670
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Like, uh, I mean there's the potential. I guess that, Like,

671
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 2>there's rehabilitation programs and stuff too, But generally it's like

672
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 2>you realize what you did is wrong, and then I

673
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.039
<v Speaker 2>feel like those people are more so people that we

674
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.760
<v Speaker 2>can rehabilitate and like have back into the world.

675
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.760
<v Speaker 1>And rehabilitation is one thing. Back into the world is another.

676
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.639
<v Speaker 1>I don't give a shit if he's rehabilitated or not.

677
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:10.119
<v Speaker 1>He deserves to be behind.

678
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:11.679
<v Speaker 2>Bars, oh forever. Yeah, he does.

679
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 1>He can live the best life behind bars. He can

680
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.719
<v Speaker 1>be rehabilitated, he can be a born again Christian, he

681
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:22.280
<v Speaker 1>can start crocheting and giving hats to new infants being

682
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.119
<v Speaker 1>born in the local hospital. Fantastic. Good for him. I

683
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.159
<v Speaker 1>hope that's how he's living, and I hope that's how

684
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.679
<v Speaker 1>he stays living behind bars doing that.

685
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because he made a decision that was very much so.

686
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:39.800
<v Speaker 2>There was many opportunities, in many different victims that he

687
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:43.280
<v Speaker 2>could have walked away or changed himself, right, Yeah, but

688
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:47.599
<v Speaker 2>he chose repeatedly not to, and so why on earth

689
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 2>would we be giving him another chance?

690
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:54.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? And child predators are are some people that I

691
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:58.199
<v Speaker 1>just have no sympathy for. I have the sympathy for

692
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:03.480
<v Speaker 1>the understanding that some people are born certain ways, but

693
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:06.159
<v Speaker 1>you cross the line the moment you act on that,

694
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.639
<v Speaker 1>you know it's not fucking right. Don't you fucking dare

695
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:13.639
<v Speaker 1>go after a child? Man, don't you fucking dare. Yeah,

696
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:16.199
<v Speaker 1>the moment you do, I don't give a shit about you.

697
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:17.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry.

698
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:22.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I mean she she had like a future,

699
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.000
<v Speaker 2>like they all had futures, and like I said earlier,

700
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:28.239
<v Speaker 2>like he just dimmed their light and hers, he dimmed

701
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:30.280
<v Speaker 2>it completely. Yeah it's gone.

702
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so fuck you, James. That's all I'm gonna say.

703
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Brutal, just brutal.

704
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I don't even know what to say after this one. Well,

705
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:46.079
<v Speaker 1>I like stunned myself today. Honestly, I'm just like mad

706
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:48.599
<v Speaker 1>at myself and mad at this fucking guy, and mad

707
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:49.280
<v Speaker 1>at this case.

708
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.599
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like you need like a hug.

709
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:54.400
<v Speaker 1>I kind of fucking do need a hug.

710
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:55.480
<v Speaker 2>You can walk you.

711
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're gonna turn this off when Nichole's gonna go

712
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 1>give me a fucking because I need it.

713
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:03.159
<v Speaker 2>And you get to pick up new chickens some more.

714
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>I get to pick up new chickens.

715
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 2>That's something to look for.

716
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 1>Maybe we'll talk to our patrons and we'll help them

717
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:08.559
<v Speaker 1>name name these ones.

718
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's kind of a fun idea. Actually love that.

719
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Although although I will stipulate this right now, I do

720
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.800
<v Speaker 1>not want to name them after serial killers.

721
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, no, no, like there these are like, okay,

722
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.519
<v Speaker 2>these chickens bring me so much fucking joy. It is

723
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.920
<v Speaker 2>actually very much. But like I'm low key obsessed with them,

724
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.920
<v Speaker 2>and like I don't want to be looking at them,

725
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 2>like and they're bad people or bad chickens, Like I.

726
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:36.679
<v Speaker 1>Just do know that. Like some people are like, oh hey,

727
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>name it, name it Dahmer or something like that. It's like, no,

728
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:40.800
<v Speaker 1>I just don't want to go there. Fuck those people,

729
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:42.840
<v Speaker 1>you know. I mean, sure, we get entertained by some

730
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.119
<v Speaker 1>of these stories. I get that, but uh yeah.

731
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Our chickens have to be joyous.

732
00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Names exactly, joyous names for sure.

733
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:51.039
<v Speaker 2>Is that a word?

734
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Joyous? Yeah?

735
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, there you go. Yeah, well done, I mean yeah,

736
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.599
<v Speaker 2>Now you can take a little bit of a break.

737
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Breather, Yeah, breathe if you guys want to not get

738
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:03.840
<v Speaker 1>a breather and check out more of our stuff. Link

739
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.760
<v Speaker 1>is all down in the description below. We got YouTube,

740
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.280
<v Speaker 1>we got Instagram, we got Patreon. All of it's down there.

741
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Go check it out. If you want to give us

742
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:11.760
<v Speaker 1>a review that would mean the world to us. Those

743
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:14.880
<v Speaker 1>reviews go a long way, so please do that and

744
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.719
<v Speaker 1>Nicole's gonna go give me a big old hug. So

745
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.159
<v Speaker 1>until next episode, Stay WEEKEN