Speaker 1: We have covered cases from around the world, and though
Speaker 1: most of them are extremely tragic, once in a while
Speaker 1: we come across a story that is so terrible it
Speaker 1: catches us completely off guard. Today, we have a case
Speaker 1: that is senseless, brutal, and downright horrific. This is the
Speaker 1: story of sixteen year old Kelly and Bates.
Speaker 2: My name is Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening
Speaker 2: to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. Warning.
Speaker 1: The following podcasts and material intended for a mature audience.
Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. Apparently Nicole wants to talk about
Speaker 1: chickens in our intro.
Speaker 2: I just said, what are we talking? I can't even
Speaker 2: talk in our intro, we are distracted by chickens. We're
Speaker 2: buying more chickens because we have a problem, and yeah,
Speaker 2: we were warned about this.
Speaker 1: Actually, chicken math is apparently a real thing. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go buy some more chickens tomorrow, which will be
Speaker 1: the same day you guys are listening to this episode.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's cool, more chickens.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we did lose one chicken, which is very sad,
Speaker 2: and it was due to our dogs.
Speaker 1: M hm.
Speaker 2: So we lost one chicken, and we're replacing that one
Speaker 2: chicken with three chickens.
Speaker 1: Chicken math. That's how it works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there we go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to jump straight into thanking our patrons though,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Okay, So yesterday or yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: by the time you guys listened to this, it'll be yesterday.
Speaker 1: New episode exclusive end of the month one showed up
Speaker 1: in Patreon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was it?
Speaker 1: Titled? The Great Teddy Bear Massacre? And trust me, it
Speaker 1: is as wild as it seems with that's awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna go ahead and thank our patrons has
Speaker 1: signed up this past week. We have Gabrielle de Chezer,
Speaker 1: Kristen Wells, DJ Jewle. Thank you DJ for actually telling
Speaker 1: us how to say your name over in Patreon, shot
Speaker 1: us a message appreciate that, Sarah Timberman and Alita Lanaire's
Speaker 1: right on, so they all get that access to not
Speaker 1: only this past exclusive episode, but all the exclusive episodes
Speaker 1: and all the extra content on their Yeah, boom boo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good place. It's fun time over there.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a I don't know, it's just a
Speaker 1: nice little place to.
Speaker 2: It's just chill and Yeah, it's a little our little
Speaker 2: supportive community. I love it.
Speaker 1: Our patrons are awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyone that's listening to this is awesome.
Speaker 1: Of course. No, I wasn't excluding anyone.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I felt like I may be almost was,
Speaker 2: But I mean we have said it many times. We
Speaker 2: think everybody that is listening to this right at this
Speaker 2: very moment is awesome.
Speaker 1: I just I'm thinking of the Lego movie theme song.
Speaker 2: Everything is awesome, so awesome.
Speaker 1: Do we have anything else we really want to talk
Speaker 1: about today?
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know.
Speaker 1: We've just been stupid basically this.
Speaker 2: On because I'm not looking forward to just.
Speaker 1: Drag it on. Uh, this is going to be a
Speaker 1: heavy case. In my research, this case generally goes alongside
Speaker 1: the story of Junco Faruda as well, so very brutal,
Speaker 1: very heavy. I will say this, the details are not
Speaker 1: as graphic in this case, but deafly similar occurrences.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you did a last minute change. I was
Speaker 2: looking forward. I need to actually clarify because I feel
Speaker 2: like in the Patreon episode, I was like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: really looking forward to this next case, but then you
Speaker 2: did a last minute switch through and I'm not so
Speaker 2: much looking forward to this anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the one case I was going to do,
Speaker 1: I need more research time, So I'm going to be
Speaker 1: pushing that off a little while, keep that in the
Speaker 1: back burner, and keep chugging along in that research until
Speaker 1: it's ready. You know, simmer it up. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: like a marinera sauce, you gotta simmer is really important.
Speaker 1: You can't just rush that shit. You gotta simmer it.
Speaker 1: You gotta let it, you know, get its stuff all
Speaker 1: flowy and stuff. If you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I know what you're saying, but I was an interesting
Speaker 2: way of saying it.
Speaker 1: Simmer.
Speaker 2: I just felt like I need to clarify so that
Speaker 2: all of our patrons weren't like wow, Nicle is like.
Speaker 1: Like nuts, No, it's like.
Speaker 2: So pumped for this episode. What was wrong with ner?
Speaker 1: I think they understand. So I think we're good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you ready to jump into this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1: It is the story, as I said of Kelly Ann Bates,
Speaker 1: it's one of brutality. I'll say that again. And it
Speaker 1: begins on April sixteenth, in nineteen ninety six, not that
Speaker 1: old really, No, So this is the Greater Manchester Police
Speaker 1: who received a call. This is OPRAH in the UK.
Speaker 1: They received a very distressing phone call from a man
Speaker 1: whose name was James Patterson Smith. Now James was Kelly's boyfriend.
Speaker 1: They lived together right and on the call he reported
Speaker 1: a extremely tragic accidental drowning of his girlfriend. So, according
Speaker 1: to James, he had actually accidentally killed her during an
Speaker 1: argument when they were in the bath together. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: So at one point during said argument, she had accidentally
Speaker 1: inhaled some of the bath water and began drowning as
Speaker 1: a result. He then tried to assist and once she
Speaker 1: passed out, tried to resuscitate her, but he was unsuccess
Speaker 1: successful and she then deceased.
Speaker 2: So that was like the story that he was saying,
Speaker 2: is what happened?
Speaker 1: Yes, so this is what he reported to the police.
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned, Kelly was only sixteen when she died. So, however,
Speaker 1: what unfolded next was a horrifying revelation. James was very
Speaker 1: soon placed under arrest because the scene at his residence
Speaker 1: surpassed anything the authorities had in as far as expectations.
Speaker 1: You see, Kelly was not only found lifeless when they
Speaker 1: approached the scene. When they came to James's.
Speaker 2: House was expected, I'm assuming yes.
Speaker 1: But the house was smeared with her blood and she
Speaker 1: bore dozens of appalling injuries across her body from a drowning,
Speaker 1: from an apparent drowning.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, that is definitely not the scene you would
Speaker 2: be expecting.
Speaker 1: No, when authorities came and saw this, they immediately realize
Speaker 1: this was not an accident. What they were looking at,
Speaker 1: what they were standing in was a murder scene.
Speaker 2: Well, and was this guy like like unwell for literally
Speaker 2: kind of like just inviting them here to this where
Speaker 2: he's showcasing that he is obviously really disturbing.
Speaker 1: I think he might have just thought he'd just get
Speaker 1: away with it. How, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't understand his thought process there either. I tried
Speaker 1: to contemplate that several times on my own, and I cannot.
Speaker 1: I can't fathom a single instance where he thought he
Speaker 1: would get away with it or where it makes sense.
Speaker 1: I just can't.
Speaker 2: M m.
Speaker 1: Yeah, unless it was just sheer panic and he's like
Speaker 1: I got a call for help because maybe.
Speaker 2: He realized what he'd.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to get into the story, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we do, and before we dive too deep into all
Speaker 1: these details. Let's take a step back and talk about
Speaker 1: the relationship between James and Kelly, because it's very important. Okay,
Speaker 1: So it all starts one day when Margaret Bates was
Speaker 1: returning home to find her sixteen year old daughter Kelly
Speaker 1: standing in the kitchen. Now, unbeknownst to Margaret, Kelly had
Speaker 1: brought home her boyfriend, James Patterson Smith. So she brought
Speaker 1: him home for the first time to kind of, hey,
Speaker 1: meet the family, right, and this was the first time
Speaker 1: that she was hearing anything about said boyfriend. Now, this,
Speaker 1: of course doesn't sound too horrific. I mean, unless you
Speaker 1: have a fear of realizing your children are actually inevitably
Speaker 1: growing up and going to start dating and moving out
Speaker 1: and all this sort of stuff. You know, they're not
Speaker 1: just innocent children, right, unless that's your fearing, This seems
Speaker 1: like a harmless situation.
Speaker 2: But yeah, because at sixteen, I imagine quite a few
Speaker 2: people like they start having significant others ish, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they start dating, entering the dating pool and stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure this is not an abnormal thing for
Speaker 1: someone that age. Now to Margaret, though, she did have
Speaker 1: a bit of a horrifying situation. She had the sound
Speaker 1: of footsteps coming down the hall, and she turned around
Speaker 1: to see James standing there, and her horrifying situation was this.
Speaker 1: Her jaw immediately dropped and to put it in her
Speaker 1: own words, quote, the hairs on the back of my
Speaker 1: neck went up.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Seriously, Yes, h James was not just a boy that
Speaker 1: her daughter was dating. In fact, he wasn't just an
Speaker 1: older boy. As Kelly had so put it. She was
Speaker 1: standing in front of a man who had some grays
Speaker 1: in his hairs and some crows feet on the corner
Speaker 1: of his eye. Kelly had informed her mother that James
Speaker 1: was in fact thirty two years old.
Speaker 2: Okay, which I mean at thirty two you'd have grays
Speaker 2: and you'd had crow's feet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she's sixteen sixteen? I forgot how y, yes, holy.
Speaker 1: Shit, Okay, that just you're like, oh, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: have some grips shit at thirty two. What's wrong with that?
Speaker 1: He's dating someone sixteen.
Speaker 2: I missed the point, like that's actually illegal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's statutory rate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, sorry, I missed the Uh. I don't know
Speaker 2: what the word is there, but the rising action, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: You the info. In a later interview, Margaret would actually
Speaker 1: admit to having an unsettling urge in that moment, to
Speaker 1: picking up a knife that was sitting in the kitchen
Speaker 1: and stabbing James in the back right then, right there. Really, Hey, yes,
Speaker 1: she had this immediate urge when she saw him. Now,
Speaker 1: little did she know that her motherly instincts would prove
Speaker 1: be a tragic prediction for things to come.
Speaker 2: Wow, that is so bizarre. I actually can't really ever
Speaker 2: recall a moment where you've met someone and you get
Speaker 2: that kind of feeling, you.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, it's uh, it's not something I can say
Speaker 1: I've really had where I'm like, oh, I want to
Speaker 1: stab his bitch in the back. Well, it's not something
Speaker 1: I've had.
Speaker 2: Even the hairs kind of raising on your neck like that,
Speaker 2: that's like really alarming.
Speaker 1: Hey, that's intense. That's very intense. So, I mean, Margaret's
Speaker 1: just standing there staring in disbelief at this man that
Speaker 1: her sixteen year old daughter has now brought home, and
Speaker 1: she had no idea lies in the history that had
Speaker 1: actually already been behind them and their relationship, because James
Speaker 1: wasn't thirty two years old. That was a lie he
Speaker 1: was actually forty eight years old.
Speaker 2: Oh shit, forty eight.
Speaker 1: Forty eight years old seeing a sixteen year old? Oh
Speaker 1: my god, yeah, try and swallow that fucking pill.
Speaker 2: Like, could that almost be her grandfather?
Speaker 1: I mean technically technically that you probably could.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's really disturbing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So of course the two decided to lie about
Speaker 1: the age to kind of draw back a bit, to
Speaker 1: try and like soften the blow in any potential backlas.
Speaker 2: Oh did she know that he was actually forty eight
Speaker 2: years old?
Speaker 1: No, okay, thirty two. They told her thirty two, so
Speaker 1: that's what she believed.
Speaker 2: No, sorry, the daughter, Oh, the daughter knew that he
Speaker 2: was actually forty eight years old. Correct, seriously correct? Okay.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm not super opposed to like age gaps
Speaker 2: and stuff in relationships because I've known some people that
Speaker 2: have age gaps and it seems like it can work.
Speaker 2: But that is a bit much.
Speaker 1: This is not an age gap. This, as I said,
Speaker 1: is statia ory rape. You are a minor. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: this dude is like almost a decade off getting a
Speaker 1: fucking senior citizen discount. Like what the fuck? Well, maybe
Speaker 1: a little more than a decade, but still, you know what,
Speaker 1: I mean, so, yeah, it was quite the shocking situation
Speaker 1: to be putting in, being put in when your daughter's
Speaker 1: just like, oh, yeah, here's my boyfriend. He's thirty two.
Speaker 1: So the daughter knows he's actually forty eight, but the family,
Speaker 1: the parents think thirty two. Now, that's not the end
Speaker 1: of their lie. They had also not just recently started dating.
Speaker 1: They started dating when Kelly was fourteen and James was
Speaker 1: forty six.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, this guy, okay, he has to be
Speaker 3: like manipulating her because something this that is just like
Speaker 3: not right.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's definite manipulation going on.
Speaker 2: Fourteen and forty eight.
Speaker 1: Correct, fourteen and forty six when they okay, still I'm
Speaker 1: not blaming Kelly one fucking iota. Yeah, like she is
Speaker 1: wholeheartedly being manipulated. Yeah, this sick fuck.
Speaker 2: Because he would know better, and she is just like young.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's just like, oh, this older guy is interested
Speaker 1: in me. It seems so cool. He seems so nice,
Speaker 1: he likes me. Maybe it's like because I'm acting older
Speaker 1: than girls my age sort of thing, and apparently I
Speaker 1: think that's like a line these kind of fucking sickos do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: holy okay, And so rightfully. So, Kelly's parents were not
Speaker 1: impressed even with the idea of him being thirty two,
Speaker 1: let alone, if they actually knew he.
Speaker 2: Was forty eight, they would have lost their fucking mind.
Speaker 1: You bet. But still, against their better judgment, they decided
Speaker 1: to let their daughter continue the relationship after all, she
Speaker 1: was happy.
Speaker 2: Well that's hard, though, because the thing is, if they
Speaker 2: would have liked for it, forbid her from seeing him,
Speaker 2: I mean, she could have still found a way and
Speaker 2: then she's sneaking around exactly.
Speaker 1: So that's so hard exactly. That was kind of the
Speaker 1: stipulation with this relationship is that there still needs to
Speaker 1: be communication and like things need to be open and
Speaker 1: what's happening and yeah, so the parents were like, we're
Speaker 1: not going to stop this because I don't think we can,
Speaker 1: but like, there's gonna be some fucking ground rules here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I can't knock the parents for that. I totally understand. However,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I know a lot of people disagree
Speaker 1: with this too, because they're like they not everyone can
Speaker 1: totally get it. But the idea of hey, maybe reporting
Speaker 1: someone like that to the police, it's not a bad idea.
Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, I mean, but really, they're probably thinking
Speaker 2: that their relationship with their daughter is on the line, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: So it's it's really really tough. But also that oh,
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's it's it's too much.
Speaker 1: It is, but we digress a little bit. Let's keep
Speaker 1: moving on here. It would be November nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 1: not long after this initial meeting in the kitchen, that
Speaker 1: Kelly would take the steps to move in with her
Speaker 1: significant other and at the time unemployed James. Now, as
Speaker 1: I said, although her parents are skeptical of the relationship,
Speaker 1: they're also skeptical of this decision, but they agreed in
Speaker 1: the conditions that she would keep in regular contact, so
Speaker 1: it's like, you come see us, we talk lots, all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff kind of so they can still
Speaker 1: be a parent.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what to say to that, because
Speaker 2: that the moving in thing.
Speaker 1: That's that's tough.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, regardless of the situation, she went and moved
Speaker 1: in with them, and regardless of the deal, the following months,
Speaker 1: Kelly's once outgoing demeanor and keeping in touch with her
Speaker 1: parents slowly changed, and she was much more quieter and
Speaker 1: with drawn, and the parents were hearing from her less
Speaker 1: and less. So during a rare visit, her parents actually
Speaker 1: noticed something some bruises on her arms. Oh geez, which
Speaker 1: we're signaling some more worrisome events in the future. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of interesting signs in this case, not
Speaker 1: to say that people need to be aware of these signs,
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, you should have seen and you
Speaker 1: should have been able to know. Not blaming anyone in
Speaker 1: that say that sense whatsoever, just saying looking on it
Speaker 1: in a hindsight perspective, it's like, holy fuck, there's all
Speaker 1: these little tiny things.
Speaker 2: Well, even when you said that she was kind of
Speaker 2: not as outgoing and stuff anymore, Like what just came
Speaker 2: to my mind. It was like he was like dimming
Speaker 2: her light. Yeah, which is so sad.
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting way of putting it. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about James. Prior to his
Speaker 1: involvement with the teenage Kelly, he had a rather troublesome
Speaker 1: history regarding assaulting women that he lived with.
Speaker 2: Awesome, So this guy's a fucking winner and a half.
Speaker 1: Okay, he's a piece of shit, full on piece of shit.
Speaker 1: He had accusations of physical violence and assault, one that
Speaker 1: actually marked the end of his first marriage after ten
Speaker 1: years together in nineteen eighty so, then between nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: and nineteen eighty two, while still technically married, he would
Speaker 1: have an affair with a twenty year old named Tina Watson,
Speaker 1: who he reportedly used as a quote punching bag, yes,
Speaker 1: deserving violence that didn't cease while she was pregnant as well.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, okay yep.
Speaker 1: At one point he tried to strangle and drown her
Speaker 1: while she was in the bath. Wow, okay, so real
Speaker 1: quick here before you say something, because I know you're
Speaker 1: about to. Luckily for her. However, she did manage to
Speaker 1: get away from James and the whole abusive relationship that
Speaker 1: she found herself in. So that's fantastic. She got out
Speaker 1: of that relationship and she was sure she and the
Speaker 1: child were safe.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were going to say something.
Speaker 2: I wasn't.
Speaker 1: Actually, Oh no, you're just just gasping with sho.
Speaker 2: I like, my eyeballs are just like bulging out of
Speaker 2: my head here.
Speaker 1: From here, James would find himself in another relationship, in
Speaker 1: another statutory rape relationship in fact, with a fifteen year
Speaker 1: old whose name I have chosen to leave out of
Speaker 1: this podcast. She also found James to be very physically
Speaker 1: abusive towards her, and in one attack, he held her
Speaker 1: face underwater in the kitchen sink in an attempt to
Speaker 1: drown her. Luckily she survived. Wow. In nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: James began his relationship with fourteen year old Kelly, which
Speaker 1: brings us up to date where authorities were called and
Speaker 1: found Kelly's lifeless body and James was apprehended.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, please tell me that this guy is
Speaker 2: just going to be locked away for the rest of
Speaker 2: his life.
Speaker 1: I don't think you're gonna be happy with the results
Speaker 1: of this case.
Speaker 2: You're fucking serious.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say that.
Speaker 2: Wow, I will.
Speaker 1: Rage, I will rage.
Speaker 2: This tiny house will be turned upside down.
Speaker 1: I might be fucking found drowned after this podcast. So
Speaker 1: the scene authorities arrived at once James called them was
Speaker 1: not something authorities were able to stomach very easy. They
Speaker 1: had found sixteen year old Kelly naked in the bedroom floor.
Speaker 1: Her blood was found smudged and smeared to some degree
Speaker 1: in every single room of the house, which was one
Speaker 1: of the first indications that something just wasn't right. Her
Speaker 1: body of course was another There were several physical injuries
Speaker 1: that covered Kelly's body that did not line up with
Speaker 1: a simple drowning, and when taken in for examination and autopsy,
Speaker 1: that's when the true realization regarding the extent of the
Speaker 1: situation came to light.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean he honestly, it doesn't make sense, but
Speaker 2: it makes sense that he's gotten away with everything prior
Speaker 2: to right that he now he's just like up leveling it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But to think that he would get away with something
Speaker 2: where there's blood in every room, Yes, that like you
Speaker 2: almost have to wonder if he's gone off the deep
Speaker 2: end here.
Speaker 1: I think he's been getting away with things and I
Speaker 1: think he had. I think it's a power trip thing.
Speaker 1: We've covered cases before in episodes where guys like get
Speaker 1: off on this sort of shit, right, Like it's a
Speaker 1: power trip, like I can make you do what I
Speaker 1: want or whatever, And I think that's what it is here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go into some more details with regarding her autopsy
Speaker 1: year because I don't want to be giving away too many things.
Speaker 1: So the examination of her body revealed over one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty separate physical injuries to Kelly, and they were
Speaker 1: able to identify that these injuries were occurring over the
Speaker 1: course of the last month of her life. So for
Speaker 1: an entirety of a month she.
Speaker 2: Was enduring the shit.
Speaker 1: Yes. So also you have to think of the fact
Speaker 1: that at the age sixteen you bounce back and heal
Speaker 1: pretty quick. So how many bruises and such would have
Speaker 1: healed over the course of a month as well?
Speaker 2: That's true, yep.
Speaker 1: So regarding that last month of her life as well,
Speaker 1: they were able to determine that she was kept bound
Speaker 1: in the house for the entirety of it. At times
Speaker 1: she would have been tied up by her hair even
Speaker 1: two items ch as chairs or radiators. Other times she
Speaker 1: was tied and bound around the neck. But one way
Speaker 1: or another she would have been bound for the remainder of.
Speaker 2: That monthly, a whole entire month.
Speaker 1: Yes. So A man by the name of William Lawler,
Speaker 1: the Home Office pathologist who examined Kelly's remains, had this
Speaker 1: to say, quote, in my career, I have examined almost
Speaker 1: six hundred victims of homicide, but I have never come
Speaker 1: across injuries so extensive that right there paints a brutal picture.
Speaker 1: He's saying, I've never.
Speaker 2: Seen this like, that's like a one in six hundred, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: This is like way above all these other six hundred.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, it's like it's close for the worst,
Speaker 1: and it's.
Speaker 2: Like, no, it's my far the worst.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So some of the injuries that had found on
Speaker 1: Kelly and her body included the following scalding to her
Speaker 1: left butt, cheek, and left leg, burns on her thighs
Speaker 1: caused by the application of a hot iron, a fractured arm,
Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds caused by knives, forks, and scissors, stab
Speaker 1: wounds inside of her mouth, crush injuries to both of
Speaker 1: her hands, mutilation of her ears, nose, eyebrows, mouth lips,
Speaker 1: genitalia wounds caused by a spade, a shovel, spade, and
Speaker 1: pruny shears. Both of her eyes had been gouged out. Later,
Speaker 1: stab wounds were found in the empty sockets of her eyes,
Speaker 1: and she was partially scalped. The pathologist was able to
Speaker 1: determine that Kelly endured her eyes being gouged out, quote
Speaker 1: not less than five days and more than three weeks
Speaker 1: before her death, so she lived at least five days
Speaker 1: after having her eyes gouged from her head. They were
Speaker 1: also able to find that she had been starved in
Speaker 1: the weeks leading to her death. She had lost approximately
Speaker 1: twenty kilograms twenty kilograms, not pounds, that would be equivalent
Speaker 1: to forty four pounds. The starvation would have also included
Speaker 1: not being allowed to drink water or any other fluids
Speaker 1: for several days she endured. Absolute hell, holy shit, this
Speaker 1: poor fucking girl.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I cannot even believe that someone would do something
Speaker 2: like that to another human being, right, like wow, And gosh,
Speaker 2: you gave even some details I had. I was wondering
Speaker 2: about the eyes, Like I was like, oh, maybe that
Speaker 2: happened like after she died, but nope.
Speaker 1: Nope, prior to days prior to wow.
Speaker 2: Wow, So like was this literally his just his motive
Speaker 2: the whole entire time?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe, like that is so disturbing. I am just like
Speaker 2: shook out of my fucking mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see what I mean? How this one gets kind
Speaker 1: of like total long in the same sort of lines
Speaker 1: as Junco quite often. Yeah, because when I was researching Junco,
Speaker 1: I don't believe I've ever run across this case, but
Speaker 1: when I was researching this case, they seem to go
Speaker 1: hand in hand very often when I was researching articles,
Speaker 1: a lot of them be like after you're done reading
Speaker 1: this article, at the bottom, it's like, you may enjoy
Speaker 1: this article or whatever, and then it link would link
Speaker 1: to like a Junco one or something.
Speaker 2: No, thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I can't believe what this This young woman
Speaker 1: was put through absolute hell for someone that she thought
Speaker 1: was he was there for her and love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like so messed so messed.
Speaker 1: Up, so fucked up. Which it almost makes this one
Speaker 1: worse than Junko in the fact on who was the perpetrator.
Speaker 1: This was supposed to be someone she could love, trust, yeah,
Speaker 1: live with. She chose to move in with this person,
Speaker 1: well that count me wrong like Junko, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: comparing cases by any means, Like Junko was absolutely horrifying too.
Speaker 1: But this was supposed to be someone that Kelly could
Speaker 1: have trusted.
Speaker 2: Because there was a bunch of lead up to this,
Speaker 2: Like it was just I mean the intention of this
Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, he probably had this endgame
Speaker 2: and which is really disturbing, Like it I kind of
Speaker 2: almost went on longer, you know what I'm trying to
Speaker 2: say here, Yeah, like which, yeah, wow, that this guy
Speaker 2: is a.
Speaker 1: Like is just an absolute fucking mom Say, I.
Speaker 2: Need a word worse than monster because this is really disturbing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, the trial for James began shortly thereafter, and
Speaker 1: the prosecution meticulously presented the details of the torture that
Speaker 1: Kelly would have endured to the jury, many of which
Speaker 1: after the trial would have to seek counseling for the details.
Speaker 1: In this case, the prosecutor in the trial, Peter Openshaw,
Speaker 1: had this to say, in the case, it was as
Speaker 1: if he deliberately disfigured her, causing her the utmost pain, distress,
Speaker 1: and degradation. The injuries were not the result of one
Speaker 1: sudden eruption of violence. They must have been caused over
Speaker 1: a long period that were so extensive and so terrible
Speaker 1: that the defendant must have deliberately and systematically tortured the girl.
Speaker 1: And I think he's absolutely right in that statement. So
Speaker 1: Kelly's official death was indeed drowning, but not before she
Speaker 1: received the brutal beating in the head with a shower head.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Peter Openshaw, the UH prosecutor, also remarked her death must
Speaker 1: have been a merciful end to her torture.
Speaker 2: Huh. Well, I mean at that point, like she's probably
Speaker 2: just like begging for that, yes, And.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of what he means, is that
Speaker 1: she was almost thankful for that end, which is so
Speaker 1: terrifying to think about.
Speaker 2: Holy well, and then the other thing because yeah, for
Speaker 2: this literally to be going on for like that long
Speaker 2: of a span is what I mean, because yeah, like
Speaker 2: the one said, like it wasn't just a fit of rage,
Speaker 2: like this went on for a really long time.
Speaker 1: It did over approximately the course of a month.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I still can't get over now that we've
Speaker 2: heard like what her body look like, that he actually
Speaker 2: phoned the police to call this in and didn't like
Speaker 2: go about hiding it, Like I'm like.
Speaker 1: That's fucked yep.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like he wanted to be caught or.
Speaker 1: Something maybe or he was just so confident because he's
Speaker 1: been getting away with it this whole time that oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll just believe me. And that's that. But I do
Speaker 1: think that, like when I say that there was blood
Speaker 1: throughout the house, I actually couldn't find detail on how
Speaker 1: much blood. My assumption is that the blood was not hey,
Speaker 1: spatter from a kill. It's simply just there's blood traced
Speaker 1: throughout the house from over the course.
Speaker 2: Of the entire month of being tortured.
Speaker 1: Yes, like a fingerprint here, a drop there, Yeah, a
Speaker 1: smudge there, like that sort of stuff. A cloth being
Speaker 1: soaked in blood, thrown in the hamper of the laundry,
Speaker 1: things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because honestly, when you first mentioned that, I was
Speaker 2: kind of thinking like that. They that he went around
Speaker 2: and smeared it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, So throughout the trial, some of the
Speaker 1: women who had also suffered abuse to the hems of
Speaker 1: James bravely came forward and they helped painted a very
Speaker 1: disturbing picture of a misogynistic man consumed by jealousy who
Speaker 1: would resort to violence to exert control over others. So
Speaker 1: hats off to them for standing. Oh yeah, because that
Speaker 1: would have been difficult.
Speaker 2: No kidding, that's so good that they were there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. James and his defense team, however, attempted to cast
Speaker 1: him as the victim. Yeah that was my reaction to,
Speaker 1: just fucking laugh, claiming basically that Kelly's actions had driven
Speaker 1: him to commit the act. He said, quote, she put
Speaker 1: me through hell, constantly provoking me.
Speaker 2: She was sixteen years old, You motherfucker. Yeah, sixteen years old,
Speaker 2: and I don't.
Speaker 1: Give a shit if someone's provoking you. You don't provoke.
Speaker 1: You don't get provoked to torture someone for a fucking month.
Speaker 2: Like nothing would provoke that could provoke that. No, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, just leave.
Speaker 1: Then, exactly so, I mean even going as far as
Speaker 1: to suggesting that some of her injuries were actually self
Speaker 1: inflicted to tarnish his image and name. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what he's going on saying, I'm the victim. She's doing
Speaker 1: this to me, and she provoked me into doing this.
Speaker 1: The jury luckily saw right fucking through this manipulation tactic.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and they swiftly came with a verdict finding
Speaker 1: him guilty on murder of Kelly and Bates.
Speaker 2: They probably just like low, like just hated him. Yes,
Speaker 2: Like I don't think if I was on that jury, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't even think I would be able to look
Speaker 2: at him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just gross, I agree. So on November nineteenth, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven, James was sentenced to a minimum of twenty
Speaker 1: years in prison, and he currently sits there to this day.
Speaker 1: And this is where I don't think you'll be happy,
Speaker 1: because I'm not happy twenty years is not enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how on earth is it only twenty years?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Not enough? I mean it minimum. But still he
Speaker 1: could get out in four years.
Speaker 2: And he would be how old, like in his sixties
Speaker 2: or early seventies or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be like sixty eight or sixty nine something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so like enough time to do this
Speaker 2: again and he would Yeah, like there is no way
Speaker 2: that that man should be like outside of prison.
Speaker 1: No life. And then some because this wasn't just like
Speaker 1: a manslaughter or some like fucking murder. No, he systematically
Speaker 1: tortured and fucking murdered her, Yeah, brutally, not to mention
Speaker 1: any sort of statutory rape charges that should have been applied,
Speaker 1: which clearly weren't.
Speaker 2: You know, these some I just can't understand sometimes the
Speaker 2: sentencing because like the last case we did right where
Speaker 2: they had murdered their basically, yeah, they got like years
Speaker 2: upon years. Yeah, and like I mean that was terrible too,
Speaker 2: but like this is worse. Really, I'm not like comparing them,
Speaker 2: but like what he did, like he should never well beyond.
Speaker 1: They got more for murder. This is murder, torture, stay
Speaker 1: rate much more.
Speaker 2: There's way there's more like charges really, but it's less
Speaker 2: way less time.
Speaker 1: Now. I do understand there's different jurisdictions, there's different legislations
Speaker 1: for different areas and states and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: This is over in the UK as well, so I
Speaker 1: mean this is a completely different country at that. But
Speaker 1: still it should be life. He should be behind bars
Speaker 1: for fucking life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like never getting out questions asked.
Speaker 1: But he could potentially walk free in a few years.
Speaker 2: Oh that is so disturbing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the worst parts about this to
Speaker 1: me is that he could go free and not to
Speaker 1: mention that in the trial. He's like, oh, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: her fault. So that's telling me, that's telling me right there,
Speaker 1: He's not learning a fucking thing. He wasn't remorseful.
Speaker 2: No, he probably wants to do again.
Speaker 1: Probably so anyways, the murder of Kelly and Bates remains
Speaker 1: one of the most horrifying crimes in British history, and
Speaker 1: Margaret Bates, Kelly's mother, is still haunted by that moment
Speaker 1: in the kitchen where she first encountered him, constantly flashing
Speaker 1: back to the moment where she had an instinct to
Speaker 1: end his life right then and there, and she wonders
Speaker 1: if it kind of might have been some sort of
Speaker 1: sixth sense warninger of the tragedy that would come to
Speaker 1: her daughter later on.
Speaker 2: Oh that is so sad. It is Oh man, yikes.
Speaker 1: And that's the story of Kelly and Bates.
Speaker 2: Wow, that is quite the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is so.
Speaker 2: I guess you need to leave for a bit so
Speaker 2: I can destroy this tiny house with range.
Speaker 1: She's just a fit of fucking rage.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow. Yeah, that would have been a tough one
Speaker 2: of research.
Speaker 1: It was. I kind of didn't want to. I didn't
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know how to say this.
Speaker 1: I didn't really want to go into details on this
Speaker 1: one too much. I'm kind of glad that I didn't
Speaker 1: go in so much. I'm sure I'm sitting here saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, the details were harder to find. I
Speaker 1: think I said that at the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if the details were harder to find
Speaker 1: her if I just didn't want to find them.
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, I feel like you gave us enough detail.
Speaker 1: I think so too.
Speaker 2: That is enough.
Speaker 1: I don't know it really we want anymore. No, I
Speaker 1: certainly don't. I feel so bad for this poor girl.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, like that is so young, and this guy,
Speaker 2: the fact that he could be kind of getting out
Speaker 2: of jail is like that's haunting. That's so haunting.
Speaker 1: I hope he doesn't.
Speaker 2: Well honest, oh, I can't. I shouldn't say this.
Speaker 1: Never mind what No, I can't say, you have to
Speaker 1: say it now.
Speaker 2: Well, I was just like, if that mom is a
Speaker 2: lot for him to get out of jail, like I would,
Speaker 2: I would go and do unthinkable things.
Speaker 1: Which I mean, I'm sure that mom is thinking the
Speaker 1: same thing. Yeah, but two wrongs don't make the right.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that. I'm not gonna say I disagree
Speaker 1: with you, but I will say two wrongs don't make
Speaker 1: a right.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, he would need to have like
Speaker 2: identity change and all that stuff, because, like I, I
Speaker 2: honestly can't believe that he's even surviving in jail, to
Speaker 2: be honest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, actually I'm actually surprised.
Speaker 2: When you think about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I hope he fucking rots. I hope
Speaker 1: he never gets out. I hope he fucking rots and
Speaker 1: fuck him.
Speaker 2: Like, uh, I mean there's the potential. I guess that, Like,
Speaker 2: there's rehabilitation programs and stuff too, But generally it's like
Speaker 2: you realize what you did is wrong, and then I
Speaker 2: feel like those people are more so people that we
Speaker 2: can rehabilitate and like have back into the world.
Speaker 1: And rehabilitation is one thing. Back into the world is another.
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit if he's rehabilitated or not.
Speaker 1: He deserves to be behind.
Speaker 2: Bars, oh forever. Yeah, he does.
Speaker 1: He can live the best life behind bars. He can
Speaker 1: be rehabilitated, he can be a born again Christian, he
Speaker 1: can start crocheting and giving hats to new infants being
Speaker 1: born in the local hospital. Fantastic. Good for him. I
Speaker 1: hope that's how he's living, and I hope that's how
Speaker 1: he stays living behind bars doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he made a decision that was very much so.
Speaker 2: There was many opportunities, in many different victims that he
Speaker 2: could have walked away or changed himself, right, Yeah, but
Speaker 2: he chose repeatedly not to, and so why on earth
Speaker 2: would we be giving him another chance?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And child predators are are some people that I
Speaker 1: just have no sympathy for. I have the sympathy for
Speaker 1: the understanding that some people are born certain ways, but
Speaker 1: you cross the line the moment you act on that,
Speaker 1: you know it's not fucking right. Don't you fucking dare
Speaker 1: go after a child? Man, don't you fucking dare. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the moment you do, I don't give a shit about you.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean she she had like a future,
Speaker 2: like they all had futures, and like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: like he just dimmed their light and hers, he dimmed
Speaker 2: it completely. Yeah it's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so fuck you, James. That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Brutal, just brutal.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't even know what to say after this one. Well,
Speaker 1: I like stunned myself today. Honestly, I'm just like mad
Speaker 1: at myself and mad at this fucking guy, and mad
Speaker 1: at this case.
Speaker 2: And I feel like you need like a hug.
Speaker 1: I kind of fucking do need a hug.
Speaker 2: You can walk you.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're gonna turn this off when Nichole's gonna go
Speaker 1: give me a fucking because I need it.
Speaker 2: And you get to pick up new chickens some more.
Speaker 1: I get to pick up new chickens.
Speaker 2: That's something to look for.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll talk to our patrons and we'll help them
Speaker 1: name name these ones.
Speaker 2: Oh that's kind of a fun idea. Actually love that.
Speaker 1: Although although I will stipulate this right now, I do
Speaker 1: not want to name them after serial killers.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, like there these are like, okay,
Speaker 2: these chickens bring me so much fucking joy. It is
Speaker 2: actually very much. But like I'm low key obsessed with them,
Speaker 2: and like I don't want to be looking at them,
Speaker 2: like and they're bad people or bad chickens, Like I.
Speaker 1: Just do know that. Like some people are like, oh hey,
Speaker 1: name it, name it Dahmer or something like that. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: I just don't want to go there. Fuck those people,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, sure, we get entertained by some
Speaker 1: of these stories. I get that, but uh yeah.
Speaker 2: Our chickens have to be joyous.
Speaker 1: Names exactly, joyous names for sure.
Speaker 2: Is that a word?
Speaker 1: Joyous? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, there you go. Yeah, well done, I mean yeah,
Speaker 2: Now you can take a little bit of a break.
Speaker 1: Breather, Yeah, breathe if you guys want to not get
Speaker 1: a breather and check out more of our stuff. Link
Speaker 1: is all down in the description below. We got YouTube,
Speaker 1: we got Instagram, we got Patreon. All of it's down there.
Speaker 1: Go check it out. If you want to give us
Speaker 1: a review that would mean the world to us. Those
Speaker 1: reviews go a long way, so please do that and
Speaker 1: Nicole's gonna go give me a big old hug. So
Speaker 1: until next episode, Stay WEEKEN