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<v Speaker 1>We have.

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<v Speaker 2>My next guest is with an organization called Do No Harm.

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<v Speaker 2>And Do No Harm is a group and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if it's all medical personnel in Do No Harm,

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<v Speaker 2>but they are working to drive this kind of political

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<v Speaker 2>gender ideology out of medicine. I might be paraphrasing a

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<v Speaker 2>little too generously there, but doctor Kurt Masseli is joining

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<v Speaker 2>me now to talk about a complaint they filed about

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Connecticut when it comes to limiting access

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<v Speaker 2>to certain externships.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, Kurt, welcome the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, I just.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of badly encapsulated what Do No Harm does? Can

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<v Speaker 2>you tell my audience a little bit better what the

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<v Speaker 2>purpose of Do No Harm is and who's a part

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<v Speaker 2>of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely so. We're an organization of over thirty thousand members,

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<v Speaker 1>and that could be medical people or non medical people, citizens, policymakers, physicians, nurses,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole nine yard. And we're focused on really two

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<v Speaker 1>main issues, and that's getting identity politics out of medicine

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<v Speaker 1>and also focusing on keeping kids safe from harmful gender ideology.

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<v Speaker 1>So those are our real two main focuses. We want

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<v Speaker 1>to bring medicine back to focusing on excellence, on quality,

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<v Speaker 1>on patients and not dealing with the social engineering and

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<v Speaker 1>the social justice movements and the other dei ideology that

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<v Speaker 1>has really taken it by storm.

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<v Speaker 2>I mentioned this too, doctor Masseli before we came on

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<v Speaker 2>the air. It's gotten to the point now where I'm

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<v Speaker 2>hearing terrible stories about the competency of some of the

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<v Speaker 2>medical students in various very high level programs. Like I

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<v Speaker 2>have already decided I will never see a doctor that's

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<v Speaker 2>come out of UCLA in the past ten years because

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<v Speaker 2>of some of the things I've heard there. But this

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<v Speaker 2>in Connecticut is one of those examples of a well

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<v Speaker 2>intended program that actually ends up being very racially biased.

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<v Speaker 2>So what did you guys file a complet specifically?

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely so, As you mentioned, University of Connecticut School of

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<v Speaker 1>Medicine has an external clerkship program that they offer to

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<v Speaker 1>their fourth year medicals that offer fourth year medical students,

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<v Speaker 1>and so these are really coveted spots when you're our

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<v Speaker 1>fourth year medical student, you're in your last year, you're

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<v Speaker 1>looking to go to residency, and oftentimes these programs will

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<v Speaker 1>use these externships as a means of recruiting and attracting

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<v Speaker 1>those future residents there. And so they could be in drmatology,

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<v Speaker 1>they could be in internal medicine, they could be in

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<v Speaker 1>whatever field it might be that the university is offering.

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<v Speaker 1>And what University of Connecticut has done is they focus

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<v Speaker 1>this rotation, this externship, which offers a fifteen hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 1>scholarship as well to pay for travel and living expenses

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<v Speaker 1>while you're there for the four week rotation. They've offered

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<v Speaker 1>it really only to those underrepresentative medicine, and so those

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<v Speaker 1>who are Wide or Asian are really unable to apply.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's a big problem. That's a racial discrimination that's involved.

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<v Speaker 1>And again these are very much coveted spots. There are

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<v Speaker 1>spots that allow you to have effectively auditioned for the

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<v Speaker 1>residency program by making those connections, meeting folks and such.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, it's certainly our belief that you should

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<v Speaker 1>be looking for the most qualified and exceptional folks and

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<v Speaker 1>no matter who they are, no matter what the color

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<v Speaker 1>of their skin is, they're dender their race, whatever they are,

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<v Speaker 1>whoever they are. The key is really flatting the most

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<v Speaker 1>qualified and best applicants and not again sort of socially

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<v Speaker 1>engineering this to just pick people of certain characteristics, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know that is just it's wrong from a moral standpoint,

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<v Speaker 1>it's certainly wrong from a legal standpoint, and it also

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<v Speaker 1>creates this terrible divisiveness in society, and we've seen an

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately DEI do that in many respects. And as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the initial I guess good intentions really do

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<v Speaker 1>those south and unfortunately really poison the well of medicine

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<v Speaker 1>as opposed to to really helping us focus on the

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<v Speaker 1>quality of the patient and the quality of the student

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<v Speaker 1>and the doctor that one will have when one is

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<v Speaker 1>in need of care.

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<v Speaker 2>I think most people, and I'm sure that there are

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<v Speaker 2>outliers to what I'm about to say, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>most people want a great doctor and how they look,

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<v Speaker 2>their background, their history doesn't really matter, Like I just

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<v Speaker 2>want a great doctor who knows how to deal with

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<v Speaker 2>whatever medical issue that I am dealing with.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that to the point you were just making.

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<v Speaker 2>This actually can have the effect of hurting underrepresented groups

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<v Speaker 2>in medicine if the perception exists that they were only

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<v Speaker 2>elevated to that position because of their race, They only

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<v Speaker 2>got their residency because of their race, and that's unfortunate,

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<v Speaker 2>and it really undermines the credibility of hard working minorities

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<v Speaker 2>who are well qualified and well trained and great doctors

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<v Speaker 2>to even have that shadow cast over them. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that should be a significant concern.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's well said, Mandy, You're absolutely right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>folks want the very best when they're in the oar,

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<v Speaker 1>when they're in the er, wherever they are in that

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<v Speaker 1>medical system, that medical chain. You want the very best provider,

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<v Speaker 1>and you want to have confidence that that person is

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<v Speaker 1>the very best. And and how how awful that is

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<v Speaker 1>for someone who is underrepresented, who is highly qualified, who

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<v Speaker 1>is treating you. There should be no doubt that that

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<v Speaker 1>person is there because of their qualifications, and unfortunately Dion

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<v Speaker 1>has caused much of that undermining. And again, our focus

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<v Speaker 1>really should be on quality, on elevating the patient care

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<v Speaker 1>that's being delivered, and focusing on those things that really matter.

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<v Speaker 2>So let me ask this question about about this particular issue.

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<v Speaker 3>This is in Connecticut.

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<v Speaker 2>How many other programs like this exist across the country.

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<v Speaker 2>How many other complaints is do no harm and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>filing on a regular basis, How pervasive is this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, we do see this. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>we've seen it for the past years and know some

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<v Speaker 1>years ago Medical University of South Carolina believe was one

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<v Speaker 1>where we filed complaints. They change their ways, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>a positive. That's certainly what we want to see. We

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<v Speaker 1>want to see programs like this that have these externships

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<v Speaker 1>that are opened up to folks again of all colors

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<v Speaker 1>and creeds and allow really the best and the brightest

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<v Speaker 1>to be participt have beens in them. But unfortunately, there

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<v Speaker 1>are many programs that still exists that are out there

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<v Speaker 1>like this, and it's it is important for us to

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<v Speaker 1>file these complaints and to really again advocate for merit,

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<v Speaker 1>to advocate for excellence, and to promote that's that's what

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<v Speaker 1>Americans want, That's what we really need in medicine, and

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<v Speaker 1>certainly in this day and age, it's it's critical for

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<v Speaker 1>us to continue this work. So unfortunately, this is a

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<v Speaker 1>probably have seen elsewhere. We've seen it in various forms

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<v Speaker 1>in other locations, and we file similar OCR complaints in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of Guysing Aer and Duke University. So there are

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<v Speaker 1>others that are that are certainly there, and we again

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<v Speaker 1>Our hope is that in the end, as these investigations

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<v Speaker 1>are done, the universities will change those programs that will

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<v Speaker 1>open them up site. We have all students who are

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<v Speaker 1>able to apply and to be part of it, and

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<v Speaker 1>again for the best and the brightest to really be

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<v Speaker 1>those who are selected and continue to advance quality of medicine.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me ask for one point of clarification, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think I know this, but then I'm thinking about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking maybe other people don't. I think people assume

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<v Speaker 2>that when you go to medical school you sort of

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<v Speaker 2>automatically get a residency. That's not how it happens. How

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<v Speaker 2>do people get a residency other than what we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about now, which is an externship the fourth here. If

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have that, is it harder to get a residency?

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me about that process?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, certainly. These externships in some respects or auditions, right.

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<v Speaker 1>It gives you an opportunity to meet the folks that

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<v Speaker 1>are at another university that you haven't been going to

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<v Speaker 1>school at, and so it allows you to show your

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<v Speaker 1>stuff and to show to make those connections, to build

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<v Speaker 1>those bonds, and so in many respects they are an

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<v Speaker 1>audition and that's a good thing. It gives the resident,

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<v Speaker 1>the medical student a sense of what would it be

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<v Speaker 1>like to be a resident here, and likewise, it gives

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<v Speaker 1>the residency program a sense of what would it be

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<v Speaker 1>like to have that medical student here. And certainly if

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<v Speaker 1>they like you, they would be more likely to put

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<v Speaker 1>you into the match. And so what happens is that

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<v Speaker 1>during that fourth year of medical school, yeah, residence or

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<v Speaker 1>medical students are looking for residency programs and they're effectively

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<v Speaker 1>they're effectively interviewing there and they're then ranking them match system.

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<v Speaker 1>In March, the match results come out and so you

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<v Speaker 1>find out where we are. And really what that match

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<v Speaker 1>process is, it's very much like a dating process. You

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<v Speaker 1>would rank the top schools that you want to go

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<v Speaker 1>to for your residency. The residency programs ranked the top

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<v Speaker 1>residents that they would like to see, and there are

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<v Speaker 1>top medical students they'd like to see in their residency class,

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<v Speaker 1>and it goes into a mathematical formula and then you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you get a letter and you find out where you're going.

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<v Speaker 1>So's it is a competitive process. And you know, for

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<v Speaker 1>certain residency programs like dermatology, like orthopedic surgery, those are

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<v Speaker 1>very competitive, those are really extraordinarily high demand, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately what's happened in many medical schools is it's hard

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<v Speaker 1>for a residency program to distinguish who are the excellent

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<v Speaker 1>and the well qualified folks that should be in these programs,

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<v Speaker 1>partly because the USMLE it's our licensing exam that we

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<v Speaker 1>take the first part of that, which is given after

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<v Speaker 1>the second year of medical school is now past fail,

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<v Speaker 1>so there's no distinction there. So I think if you failed,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's no distinction within the past category of how

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<v Speaker 1>well did you pass and such. And likewise, many medical

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<v Speaker 1>schools have moved to grading systems that are pass failed

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<v Speaker 1>themselves and so there's no ABC or honors, high pass

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<v Speaker 1>and such, and it becomes very difficult to really tell

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<v Speaker 1>who should in the next neurosurgeon be or who should

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<v Speaker 1>the next plastic surgeon be. It becomes a highly, very

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<v Speaker 1>ambiguous and that makes these externships even more important, where

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<v Speaker 1>folks have the opportunity to really show who they are

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<v Speaker 1>and be able to build those relationships and perhaps match

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<v Speaker 1>into those programs. There's certainly other residency spots out there

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<v Speaker 1>that aren't as competitive, and you know, oftentimes those are

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<v Speaker 1>in the primary care fields, but nonetheless we still want

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<v Speaker 1>the very best, whether it's in primary care, and certainly

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<v Speaker 1>the specialties like the surgeries, the neurosurgeries and the like.

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<v Speaker 2>I am shocked to hear about the past fail thing.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know the old joke. I'm sure you've heard it.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you call the person who graduated last in

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<v Speaker 2>medical school?

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean there's still I guess passing, and honestly, like

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't tell you what the rank of any of

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<v Speaker 2>my doctors are in medical school, but I will tell

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<v Speaker 2>you this, I have heard enough bad things about Ivy

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<v Speaker 2>League medical schools in the way that they are conducting

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<v Speaker 2>their business that it gives me pause before I would

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<v Speaker 2>see a new doctor who came out of Columbia or

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<v Speaker 2>came out of UCLA, or came out of some of

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<v Speaker 2>these premiere programs because of the kind of nonsense that

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<v Speaker 2>you're pushing back against. Now, I just want a great doctor.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all I want. Great doctor, don't care anything else

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<v Speaker 2>about you. Great doctor is all I need for it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll let you have the last word.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're absolutely right. When I went to medical school,

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<v Speaker 1>we did hear the adage of P equals MD, pass

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<v Speaker 1>equals MD. But you know what that is. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>good for us to go to the lowest common denominator.

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<v Speaker 1>We should really want to excel. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>the point. Was an article in the Newland Dural Medicine

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<v Speaker 1>that spoke to that effect that unfortunately this diminishment of

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<v Speaker 1>really any sort of distinction has become problematic because people

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<v Speaker 1>aren't striving as hard. And I think if in any avenue,

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<v Speaker 1>we want healthcare to have folks who are striving hard

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<v Speaker 1>again really excelling in every way, shape and form if

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<v Speaker 1>they can, and unfortunately we're losing that, and it's important

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<v Speaker 1>for us to focus on that. And you know, we'd

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<v Speaker 1>love to have folks join Do No Harm, to really

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<v Speaker 1>join us in this cause of getting identity politics out

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<v Speaker 1>of medicine where at do noharmedicine dot org and likewise

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<v Speaker 1>keeping kids safe from gender ideology.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Kurt Mascelli, I put a link on my blog

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<v Speaker 2>today if people are driving so they don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>remember that. I appreciate your time today and I'll be

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<v Speaker 2>watching to see what happens at the University of Connecticut

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<v Speaker 2>because of your organization.

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<v Speaker 1>Appreciate it. Mandie, thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, have a great day. That is doctor Kurt

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<v Speaker 2>Masseli with Do No Harm