Speaker 1: We have.
Speaker 2: My next guest is with an organization called Do No Harm.
Speaker 2: And Do No Harm is a group and I don't
Speaker 2: know if it's all medical personnel in Do No Harm,
Speaker 2: but they are working to drive this kind of political
Speaker 2: gender ideology out of medicine. I might be paraphrasing a
Speaker 2: little too generously there, but doctor Kurt Masseli is joining
Speaker 2: me now to talk about a complaint they filed about
Speaker 2: the University of Connecticut when it comes to limiting access
Speaker 2: to certain externships.
Speaker 3: First of all, Kurt, welcome the show.
Speaker 1: Oh pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: First of all, I just.
Speaker 2: Kind of badly encapsulated what Do No Harm does? Can
Speaker 2: you tell my audience a little bit better what the
Speaker 2: purpose of Do No Harm is and who's a part
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. We're an organization of over thirty thousand members,
Speaker 1: and that could be medical people or non medical people, citizens, policymakers, physicians, nurses,
Speaker 1: the whole nine yard. And we're focused on really two
Speaker 1: main issues, and that's getting identity politics out of medicine
Speaker 1: and also focusing on keeping kids safe from harmful gender ideology.
Speaker 1: So those are our real two main focuses. We want
Speaker 1: to bring medicine back to focusing on excellence, on quality,
Speaker 1: on patients and not dealing with the social engineering and
Speaker 1: the social justice movements and the other dei ideology that
Speaker 1: has really taken it by storm.
Speaker 2: I mentioned this too, doctor Masseli before we came on
Speaker 2: the air. It's gotten to the point now where I'm
Speaker 2: hearing terrible stories about the competency of some of the
Speaker 2: medical students in various very high level programs. Like I
Speaker 2: have already decided I will never see a doctor that's
Speaker 2: come out of UCLA in the past ten years because
Speaker 2: of some of the things I've heard there. But this
Speaker 2: in Connecticut is one of those examples of a well
Speaker 2: intended program that actually ends up being very racially biased.
Speaker 2: So what did you guys file a complet specifically?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so, As you mentioned, University of Connecticut School of
Speaker 1: Medicine has an external clerkship program that they offer to
Speaker 1: their fourth year medicals that offer fourth year medical students,
Speaker 1: and so these are really coveted spots when you're our
Speaker 1: fourth year medical student, you're in your last year, you're
Speaker 1: looking to go to residency, and oftentimes these programs will
Speaker 1: use these externships as a means of recruiting and attracting
Speaker 1: those future residents there. And so they could be in drmatology,
Speaker 1: they could be in internal medicine, they could be in
Speaker 1: whatever field it might be that the university is offering.
Speaker 1: And what University of Connecticut has done is they focus
Speaker 1: this rotation, this externship, which offers a fifteen hundred dollars
Speaker 1: scholarship as well to pay for travel and living expenses
Speaker 1: while you're there for the four week rotation. They've offered
Speaker 1: it really only to those underrepresentative medicine, and so those
Speaker 1: who are Wide or Asian are really unable to apply.
Speaker 1: And that's a big problem. That's a racial discrimination that's involved.
Speaker 1: And again these are very much coveted spots. There are
Speaker 1: spots that allow you to have effectively auditioned for the
Speaker 1: residency program by making those connections, meeting folks and such.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's certainly our belief that you should
Speaker 1: be looking for the most qualified and exceptional folks and
Speaker 1: no matter who they are, no matter what the color
Speaker 1: of their skin is, they're dender their race, whatever they are,
Speaker 1: whoever they are. The key is really flatting the most
Speaker 1: qualified and best applicants and not again sort of socially
Speaker 1: engineering this to just pick people of certain characteristics, and
Speaker 1: you know that is just it's wrong from a moral standpoint,
Speaker 1: it's certainly wrong from a legal standpoint, and it also
Speaker 1: creates this terrible divisiveness in society, and we've seen an
Speaker 1: unfortunately DEI do that in many respects. And as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you know, the initial I guess good intentions really do
Speaker 1: those south and unfortunately really poison the well of medicine
Speaker 1: as opposed to to really helping us focus on the
Speaker 1: quality of the patient and the quality of the student
Speaker 1: and the doctor that one will have when one is
Speaker 1: in need of care.
Speaker 2: I think most people, and I'm sure that there are
Speaker 2: outliers to what I'm about to say, but I think
Speaker 2: most people want a great doctor and how they look,
Speaker 2: their background, their history doesn't really matter, Like I just
Speaker 2: want a great doctor who knows how to deal with
Speaker 2: whatever medical issue that I am dealing with.
Speaker 3: And I think that to the point you were just making.
Speaker 2: This actually can have the effect of hurting underrepresented groups
Speaker 2: in medicine if the perception exists that they were only
Speaker 2: elevated to that position because of their race, They only
Speaker 2: got their residency because of their race, and that's unfortunate,
Speaker 2: and it really undermines the credibility of hard working minorities
Speaker 2: who are well qualified and well trained and great doctors
Speaker 2: to even have that shadow cast over them. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that should be a significant concern.
Speaker 1: I think that's well said, Mandy, You're absolutely right. I mean,
Speaker 1: folks want the very best when they're in the oar,
Speaker 1: when they're in the er, wherever they are in that
Speaker 1: medical system, that medical chain. You want the very best provider,
Speaker 1: and you want to have confidence that that person is
Speaker 1: the very best. And and how how awful that is
Speaker 1: for someone who is underrepresented, who is highly qualified, who
Speaker 1: is treating you. There should be no doubt that that
Speaker 1: person is there because of their qualifications, and unfortunately Dion
Speaker 1: has caused much of that undermining. And again, our focus
Speaker 1: really should be on quality, on elevating the patient care
Speaker 1: that's being delivered, and focusing on those things that really matter.
Speaker 2: So let me ask this question about about this particular issue.
Speaker 3: This is in Connecticut.
Speaker 2: How many other programs like this exist across the country.
Speaker 2: How many other complaints is do no harm and you know,
Speaker 2: filing on a regular basis, How pervasive is this sort
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, we do see this. I mean
Speaker 1: we've seen it for the past years and know some
Speaker 1: years ago Medical University of South Carolina believe was one
Speaker 1: where we filed complaints. They change their ways, and that's
Speaker 1: a positive. That's certainly what we want to see. We
Speaker 1: want to see programs like this that have these externships
Speaker 1: that are opened up to folks again of all colors
Speaker 1: and creeds and allow really the best and the brightest
Speaker 1: to be participt have beens in them. But unfortunately, there
Speaker 1: are many programs that still exists that are out there
Speaker 1: like this, and it's it is important for us to
Speaker 1: file these complaints and to really again advocate for merit,
Speaker 1: to advocate for excellence, and to promote that's that's what
Speaker 1: Americans want, That's what we really need in medicine, and
Speaker 1: certainly in this day and age, it's it's critical for
Speaker 1: us to continue this work. So unfortunately, this is a
Speaker 1: probably have seen elsewhere. We've seen it in various forms
Speaker 1: in other locations, and we file similar OCR complaints in
Speaker 1: terms of Guysing Aer and Duke University. So there are
Speaker 1: others that are that are certainly there, and we again
Speaker 1: Our hope is that in the end, as these investigations
Speaker 1: are done, the universities will change those programs that will
Speaker 1: open them up site. We have all students who are
Speaker 1: able to apply and to be part of it, and
Speaker 1: again for the best and the brightest to really be
Speaker 1: those who are selected and continue to advance quality of medicine.
Speaker 2: Let me ask for one point of clarification, because I
Speaker 2: think I know this, but then I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking maybe other people don't. I think people assume
Speaker 2: that when you go to medical school you sort of
Speaker 2: automatically get a residency. That's not how it happens. How
Speaker 2: do people get a residency other than what we're talking
Speaker 2: about now, which is an externship the fourth here. If
Speaker 2: you don't have that, is it harder to get a residency?
Speaker 2: Tell me about that process?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, certainly. These externships in some respects or auditions, right.
Speaker 1: It gives you an opportunity to meet the folks that
Speaker 1: are at another university that you haven't been going to
Speaker 1: school at, and so it allows you to show your
Speaker 1: stuff and to show to make those connections, to build
Speaker 1: those bonds, and so in many respects they are an
Speaker 1: audition and that's a good thing. It gives the resident,
Speaker 1: the medical student a sense of what would it be
Speaker 1: like to be a resident here, and likewise, it gives
Speaker 1: the residency program a sense of what would it be
Speaker 1: like to have that medical student here. And certainly if
Speaker 1: they like you, they would be more likely to put
Speaker 1: you into the match. And so what happens is that
Speaker 1: during that fourth year of medical school, yeah, residence or
Speaker 1: medical students are looking for residency programs and they're effectively
Speaker 1: they're effectively interviewing there and they're then ranking them match system.
Speaker 1: In March, the match results come out and so you
Speaker 1: find out where we are. And really what that match
Speaker 1: process is, it's very much like a dating process. You
Speaker 1: would rank the top schools that you want to go
Speaker 1: to for your residency. The residency programs ranked the top
Speaker 1: residents that they would like to see, and there are
Speaker 1: top medical students they'd like to see in their residency class,
Speaker 1: and it goes into a mathematical formula and then you know,
Speaker 1: you get a letter and you find out where you're going.
Speaker 1: So's it is a competitive process. And you know, for
Speaker 1: certain residency programs like dermatology, like orthopedic surgery, those are
Speaker 1: very competitive, those are really extraordinarily high demand, and you know,
Speaker 1: unfortunately what's happened in many medical schools is it's hard
Speaker 1: for a residency program to distinguish who are the excellent
Speaker 1: and the well qualified folks that should be in these programs,
Speaker 1: partly because the USMLE it's our licensing exam that we
Speaker 1: take the first part of that, which is given after
Speaker 1: the second year of medical school is now past fail,
Speaker 1: so there's no distinction there. So I think if you failed,
Speaker 1: but there's no distinction within the past category of how
Speaker 1: well did you pass and such. And likewise, many medical
Speaker 1: schools have moved to grading systems that are pass failed
Speaker 1: themselves and so there's no ABC or honors, high pass
Speaker 1: and such, and it becomes very difficult to really tell
Speaker 1: who should in the next neurosurgeon be or who should
Speaker 1: the next plastic surgeon be. It becomes a highly, very
Speaker 1: ambiguous and that makes these externships even more important, where
Speaker 1: folks have the opportunity to really show who they are
Speaker 1: and be able to build those relationships and perhaps match
Speaker 1: into those programs. There's certainly other residency spots out there
Speaker 1: that aren't as competitive, and you know, oftentimes those are
Speaker 1: in the primary care fields, but nonetheless we still want
Speaker 1: the very best, whether it's in primary care, and certainly
Speaker 1: the specialties like the surgeries, the neurosurgeries and the like.
Speaker 2: I am shocked to hear about the past fail thing.
Speaker 3: But you know the old joke. I'm sure you've heard it.
Speaker 2: What do you call the person who graduated last in
Speaker 2: medical school?
Speaker 3: Doctor? Right?
Speaker 2: I mean there's still I guess passing, and honestly, like
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you what the rank of any of
Speaker 2: my doctors are in medical school, but I will tell
Speaker 2: you this, I have heard enough bad things about Ivy
Speaker 2: League medical schools in the way that they are conducting
Speaker 2: their business that it gives me pause before I would
Speaker 2: see a new doctor who came out of Columbia or
Speaker 2: came out of UCLA, or came out of some of
Speaker 2: these premiere programs because of the kind of nonsense that
Speaker 2: you're pushing back against. Now, I just want a great doctor.
Speaker 2: That's all I want. Great doctor, don't care anything else
Speaker 2: about you. Great doctor is all I need for it.
Speaker 2: I'll let you have the last word.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. When I went to medical school,
Speaker 1: we did hear the adage of P equals MD, pass
Speaker 1: equals MD. But you know what that is. It's not
Speaker 1: good for us to go to the lowest common denominator.
Speaker 1: We should really want to excel. And I think that's
Speaker 1: the point. Was an article in the Newland Dural Medicine
Speaker 1: that spoke to that effect that unfortunately this diminishment of
Speaker 1: really any sort of distinction has become problematic because people
Speaker 1: aren't striving as hard. And I think if in any avenue,
Speaker 1: we want healthcare to have folks who are striving hard
Speaker 1: again really excelling in every way, shape and form if
Speaker 1: they can, and unfortunately we're losing that, and it's important
Speaker 1: for us to focus on that. And you know, we'd
Speaker 1: love to have folks join Do No Harm, to really
Speaker 1: join us in this cause of getting identity politics out
Speaker 1: of medicine where at do noharmedicine dot org and likewise
Speaker 1: keeping kids safe from gender ideology.
Speaker 2: Doctor Kurt Mascelli, I put a link on my blog
Speaker 2: today if people are driving so they don't have to
Speaker 2: remember that. I appreciate your time today and I'll be
Speaker 2: watching to see what happens at the University of Connecticut
Speaker 2: because of your organization.
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Mandie, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: All Right, have a great day. That is doctor Kurt
Speaker 2: Masseli with Do No Harm