Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
Speaker 1: where he left off with Kathy Rumler and her interview
Speaker 1: with Congress Mister Grant. Question and the last main gift
Speaker 1: I'll bring up is the Hermes bag. I believe it
Speaker 1: was approximately a ten thousand dollars bag. Did you receive
Speaker 1: that gift from mister Epstein? Answer? I did? Question and
Speaker 1: did you similar question just asked were you involved in
Speaker 1: picking out that gift at all? Answer? Not that I remember.
Speaker 1: I do remember the circumstances of the gift, however, and
Speaker 1: the circumstances were that I had mentioned earlier that in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen I had done a trial that was where
Speaker 1: the damages. It was in federal court in California, you know,
Speaker 1: in Orange County, so it was south of LA and
Speaker 1: the damages at stake were quite big. I don't remember exactly,
Speaker 1: but I believe the damages claim at least was, you know,
Speaker 1: several hundred million dollars. And I was representing a foreign bank.
Speaker 1: This was not the roth Child's bank, it was a
Speaker 1: different bank. And then you know, trial had some publicity
Speaker 1: around it, and you know the publicity around it would
Speaker 1: have suggested that this would have been a very difficult
Speaker 1: case to defend, and that my client, which was a
Speaker 1: foreign bank it was actually a foreign Middle Eastern bank,
Speaker 1: was not very popular defendant in California. And I won
Speaker 1: the trial, and so it was a complete defense verdict,
Speaker 1: and so there was some media reporting in the legal
Speaker 1: press around in particular my performance. You know, I had
Speaker 1: given the closing argument in the case, and he sent
Speaker 1: me a bag as a congratulations gift. And I received
Speaker 1: a lot of other congratulatory gifts after winning the trial
Speaker 1: from other clients and you know, other associates, mister Grant.
Speaker 1: So in short, this gift also did not strike you
Speaker 1: as being odd in any way. Answer, No, I mean
Speaker 1: it was. It didn't strike me as odd coming from him,
Speaker 1: given his wealth and given his general kind of you know,
Speaker 1: he was. He was kind of an over the top guy,
Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. And so, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: whereas I might have gotten a bottle of really nice champagne,
Speaker 1: you know, from another client, this guy sends a Hermes bag.
Speaker 1: This was kind of his This was kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: his thing. Question and one of the main points of
Speaker 1: the committee's investigation is how Epstein and Maxwell surrounded themselves
Speaker 1: with influential people, whether that be other billionaires, people in government,
Speaker 1: people in universities, and well known. Did you ever get
Speaker 1: the impression that, due to your past working in the
Speaker 1: White House Council's Office, being a very prominent attorney, first
Speaker 1: in DC and then in New York, that mister Epstein
Speaker 1: was trying to provide you with these gifts to keep
Speaker 1: you in his circle and your connections in his circle. Answer.
Speaker 1: I did not believe that at the time. And the
Speaker 1: reason why I didn't not only didn't believe it, it
Speaker 1: didn't even cross my mind. And the reason is that,
Speaker 1: you know, when you leave, when you leave the government service,
Speaker 1: which you know some of you may do, at some
Speaker 1: point in time, you start over. And you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had been the White House counsel us. What that
Speaker 1: was yesterday and here's today. And so I had to
Speaker 1: build a practice, I had to perform well, and I
Speaker 1: had to do the work. And I was a lawyer
Speaker 1: in private practice. I didn't have the ability to, you know,
Speaker 1: do anything special for him. I wasn't. I was never
Speaker 1: even asked to do, you know, I wasn't asked to
Speaker 1: you know, call somebody in government or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, in my mind, this was a
Speaker 1: guy who liked to give people gifts, in my mind,
Speaker 1: that were inconsequential to me in the private practice of law,
Speaker 1: but also just in professional services. Generally, people are giving
Speaker 1: each other gifts all the time. As I noted, it's
Speaker 1: either you know, tickets to Knicks games, tickets to the
Speaker 1: US Open was a big thing. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: big thing in New York. You know, trips on private planes,
Speaker 1: rounds of golf, flowers, wine, champagne, you know, all those
Speaker 1: kinds of things. It's very common. And while you know,
Speaker 1: he may have been a little bit extra, it didn't
Speaker 1: seem extra to me in terms of the significance to
Speaker 1: him and might have his you know, wealth, and they
Speaker 1: were just inconsequential to me. And at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to have been had some success
Speaker 1: in my career, and you know, I was very lucky
Speaker 1: to be well compensated. And there is nothing that he
Speaker 1: ever gave me that I could not have easily paid
Speaker 1: for myself. And as I said, the one thing he
Speaker 1: tried to give me that I just thought was too
Speaker 1: over the top. I said, it's just too over the top.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the gesture, but no, thank you. Question thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Did mister Epstein ever provide you any
Speaker 1: cash gifts? Answer no question. Did mister Epstein ever wire
Speaker 1: you any money? Answer no question. Did he ever provide
Speaker 1: you with any checks? Answer? I don't believe so, no question.
Speaker 1: Did he ever provide you with any gift cards? Answer?
Speaker 1: Yes he did, Well, he tried. You know that jet card.
Speaker 1: It's not a card, but that's what they call it,
Speaker 1: I guess, but yes, he gave me Bergdorf Goodman, you know,
Speaker 1: which is a department store in New York gift cards
Speaker 1: at some point. Question and do you recall the value
Speaker 1: of those gift cards? Answer? I don't specifically. What I
Speaker 1: recall about the context is that this notion of me
Speaker 1: having a burdensome travel schedule was a constant topic that
Speaker 1: was raised, right, and a lot of it. I was
Speaker 1: traveling to Geneva a lot during the time, but I
Speaker 1: was traveling all over the world, and he thought that
Speaker 1: I was cheap in traveling, you know, in economy or
Speaker 1: you know, in business class when first class was available.
Speaker 1: And you know this, this one was his unsolicited comment,
Speaker 1: and so at one point he said, I'm going to
Speaker 1: transfer I don't know whether he said it to me
Speaker 1: or he said it to somebody on his staff, but
Speaker 1: he said, I'm going to transfer American Express points to
Speaker 1: her so that she can use it to travel better,
Speaker 1: to travel in a way you know, I think people
Speaker 1: should travel. And so there was some effort, you know,
Speaker 1: to do that, and apparently I guess they couldn't do
Speaker 1: it or something. And so in lieu of that, he
Speaker 1: sent me these I guess converted those points, those American
Speaker 1: Express points into a Bergdorf Goodman gift cards, and he
Speaker 1: gave them to me. They were sent to my office
Speaker 1: and it just and it wasn't just one, I remember,
Speaker 1: it was multiples, and I think, you know, maybe each
Speaker 1: one was worth like one thousand or five hundred. I
Speaker 1: shared them with a number of assistants in the law firm. Question.
Speaker 1: The AMEX points were actually my next question, So thank
Speaker 1: you for answering that. Also question, did mister Epstein give
Speaker 1: you access to any other perks offered by his an
Speaker 1: American Express black card, such as lounges, airport lounges, the
Speaker 1: AMEX Centurion concierge service, or anything of that nature. Answer
Speaker 1: no question. Were you ever under any healthcare plan of
Speaker 1: mister Epstein's Answer no question. And I know you mentioned
Speaker 1: denying the private jet card as a gift for mister Epstein.
Speaker 1: Do you recall any other gifts you denied from mister Epstein?
Speaker 1: Answer he offered to fly me on his plane to
Speaker 1: Paris when I had to go to Geneva to present
Speaker 1: to the board in the bank. And he offered to
Speaker 1: fly me to Paris on his plane, and then I
Speaker 1: could from there go on to Geneva. And I declined
Speaker 1: that invitation slash you no gift. Question. Did you ever
Speaker 1: receive any loans from mister Epstein? Answer no question. Did
Speaker 1: you ever request a loan from mister Epstein? Answer no question.
Speaker 1: Did you ever have any loans forgiven by mister Epstein,
Speaker 1: whether they be outside loans that he was willing to
Speaker 1: pay off for you? Answer no, I did not. Question.
Speaker 1: Did mister Epstein ever provide you with any ownership or
Speaker 1: voting rights in any entity of his? Answer no question.
Speaker 1: Did mister Epstein ever provide you with any real estate?
Speaker 1: Answer no question. Did mister Epstein assist you either home
Speaker 1: hunting or apartment hunting. Answer. I was looking for an
Speaker 1: apartment in New York and I was going to see
Speaker 1: the apartment with my broker. And he called me and said,
Speaker 1: when he called you, what he would say is I'd
Speaker 1: say hello, and he would say what's doing? And that
Speaker 1: was his Hey, what's up? He would say what's doing?
Speaker 1: Like what are you doing? And so I said, I'm
Speaker 1: going to look at an apartment and he goes, oh,
Speaker 1: do you want me to come look at it? I
Speaker 1: said sure, I never purchased real estate in New York before,
Speaker 1: And so he came and looked at the apartment that
Speaker 1: I was looking at and expressed his unsolicit opinion that
Speaker 1: it was not an apartment that I should buy. Question
Speaker 1: did mister Epstein ever ask you for any personal favors
Speaker 1: of any kind? Answer? He asked the only thing that
Speaker 1: I can recall him asking me to. He asked me for,
Speaker 1: you know, referrals to lawyers. I didn't really view that
Speaker 1: as a personal favor. But he asked whether I could
Speaker 1: help to arrange for a white house tour for one
Speaker 1: of his friends. Question that's actually my next question. Also,
Speaker 1: who is a friend that you set up on a
Speaker 1: white house tour? Answer? It was mister Woody Allen and
Speaker 1: his wife. Question and did you have to use your
Speaker 1: contacts in the White House to set up that tour? Answer?
Speaker 1: I had a number of contacts in the White House,
Speaker 1: and so I asked one of them whether they would
Speaker 1: arrange a tour from mister Allen and his wife. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Question had you met Woody Allen prior to setting up
Speaker 1: that tour for him? Answer? I had yes. Question and
Speaker 1: were you aware of mister Allen's legal history when making
Speaker 1: these arrangements? Answer his legal history questions, specifically his widely
Speaker 1: publicized sexual abuse allegations. Answer. I was aware of, you know,
Speaker 1: public reporting that had occurred. I believed I don't know
Speaker 1: whether it was the nineties or two thousands, but I
Speaker 1: was aware that there, you know, had been controversy around
Speaker 1: mister Allen. Sure. Question did that controversy ever cause concern
Speaker 1: to you at all? Answer? Well, I mean he was
Speaker 1: one of, you know, the iconic comedic directors. I certainly
Speaker 1: had watched many of his films. One of my favorite
Speaker 1: films to this day is Annie Hall. My favorite actress
Speaker 1: is Diane Keaton. I knew that, you know, Diane Keaton
Speaker 1: had given really you know she had at some point
Speaker 1: given a very you know, heartfelt tribute to mister Allen,
Speaker 1: and I was very happy to help arrange a white
Speaker 1: House tour, which I had done for hundreds of people
Speaker 1: over the years, for him and his wife, just to
Speaker 1: you know, see the white House. Wait. I thought she
Speaker 1: just said she had no contacts anymore. I guess she does,
Speaker 1: Miss Holand just jumping back in for a moment. Why
Speaker 1: did you say you denied the offer from mister Epstein
Speaker 1: to take the trip on his private aircraft. Answer? Because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to sit on an airplane and talk
Speaker 1: with him for eight hours. I wanted to go on
Speaker 1: the plane, put the mask on, my sleeping mask, and
Speaker 1: you know, go straight to Geneva and try to get
Speaker 1: some sleep on the overnight flight. It was as simple
Speaker 1: as that. Question. Did mister Epstein attempt to compensate you
Speaker 1: for setting up that White House tour for mister Allen? Answer? No,
Speaker 1: And you just asked he knew that mister Allen and
Speaker 1: his wife were going to be in Washington, and you know,
Speaker 1: was it possible for them to get a White House tour? Question?
Speaker 1: Did mister Epstein ever personally himself ask you to gain
Speaker 1: access to the White House in any way, whether for
Speaker 1: a tour or a meeting or anything of that nature.
Speaker 1: Answer no. Question, and this was touched on briefly in
Speaker 1: previous hours. But were you ever formally retained as a
Speaker 1: lawyer for mister Epstein? Answered no, I was not. Question
Speaker 1: never signed any legal binding agreement to provide legal service?
Speaker 1: Answer no, I did not. Question by mister Emmer, Just
Speaker 1: to follow up on the gifts. Are you aware of
Speaker 1: Epstein giving anyone else similar gifts that you received? Answer
Speaker 1: I knew that he had given gifts to our shared client.
Speaker 1: Again that I would haircut, you know, handbag, sweater, you
Speaker 1: know those kinds of things. Question did anyone ever express
Speaker 1: being uncomfortable with the gifts that they were receiving from
Speaker 1: mister Epstein? Answer I never heard any expression of any discomfort.
Speaker 1: Question And you referenced previously that it was common that
Speaker 1: you'd receive gifts. You specifically mentioned trials, right, Is that right? Question?
Speaker 1: It's common to receive gifts in the professional services world,
Speaker 1: and so I received many gifts from clients and other associates,
Speaker 1: you know, professional associates during my years in private practice,
Speaker 1: as did my partners. Question approximately how many gifts would
Speaker 1: you have received from professional acquaintances or clients worth more
Speaker 1: than five thousand? Answer? I don't know that I can
Speaker 1: quantify it, and I don't know that I can specifically,
Speaker 1: you know, tell you about specific value. You know, there
Speaker 1: are certain let's say, you know, concerts or something that
Speaker 1: you might get invited to where the face value of
Speaker 1: the typic typically you would get. You know, you might
Speaker 1: get invited to a box, right, and the face value
Speaker 1: of the ticket could be many thousands of dollars. I recall,
Speaker 1: you know, receiving a Chanel necklace from a daughter of
Speaker 1: a client that I actually viewed as a very personal
Speaker 1: because it was something that I knew she had personally
Speaker 1: taken the time to find, something that she really believed
Speaker 1: was like, you know, consistent with my style and that
Speaker 1: I would appreciate. I don't know how i'd value it. Question,
Speaker 1: and I believe that I asked you if others around
Speaker 1: you were uncomfortable with gifts. But for the record, were
Speaker 1: you ever uncomfortable with gifts that you were receiving from
Speaker 1: mister Epstein? Answer? The only gift that I was uncomfortable
Speaker 1: about receiving because I thought it was excessive was the
Speaker 1: jet card, but the other ones, no, mister Grant. That'll
Speaker 1: wrap up our second hour. We'll go off the record,
Speaker 1: all right, folks. We're going to wrap up right here,
Speaker 1: and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off. All the
Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
Speaker 1: the description box.