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<v Speaker 1>In the mid nineteen seventies, a Philadelphia shoemaker and father

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<v Speaker 1>of seven embarked on a terrifying crime spree with his

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<v Speaker 1>teenage son that left a trail of violence, psychological horror,

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<v Speaker 1>and murder across multiple states. What began as strange hallucinations

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<v Speaker 1>and twisted orthopedic experiments spiraled into sadistic assaults, arson and

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<v Speaker 1>the killing of innocent victims that included his own child.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the chilling true story of a man who

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<v Speaker 1>believed he was chosen by God to either heal humanity

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<v Speaker 1>or destroy it. This is the story of Joseph Collinger,

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<v Speaker 1>aka the Shoemaker.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and Grim true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The following material for a mature audience listener disction. I

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<v Speaker 1>am tired today. I don't know why it's Tuesday, but

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<v Speaker 1>it feels like a Friday.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I actually it's been a week.

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<v Speaker 1>It has been. It's been a whole week wrapped in

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<v Speaker 1>only a couple of days. I honestly thought it was

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<v Speaker 1>Friday for a moment there a couple of minutes ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and it kind of blew my mind that it was

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<v Speaker 1>only Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was like, oh, we got to get our

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<v Speaker 2>patrons or thank our patrons. You're like, huh yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, it's Friday though, and then it clicked, No,

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<v Speaker 1>it's Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 2>It's too.

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<v Speaker 1>Well shit, Yeah, while we're on the top of patrons,

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<v Speaker 1>let's thank our patrons. So shout out and thank you

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<v Speaker 1>to Linda Wolstein, Carrie, Leanne Grange, Kristen Graves and super Grams.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much for you know, supporting us over

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<v Speaker 1>on the good old Patreons.

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<v Speaker 2>No kidding, we're really in for it today.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, oh yes we are. This is actually a Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>requested case. So what we did is we went over

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<v Speaker 1>on Patreon. We were like, give us some cases. In

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<v Speaker 1>the comments, they just you know, went off in a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of cases. We picked the ones with the most likes,

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<v Speaker 1>top four, and then put it into a poll and

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<v Speaker 1>then everyone voted on which one they wanted out of

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<v Speaker 1>those top four. And this case has been on my

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<v Speaker 1>list for a long time. I just never pulled the

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<v Speaker 1>trigger on it. And we're overdue. And it is a

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<v Speaker 1>doozy of a case.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel like this one. It almost just makes

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<v Speaker 2>you you kind of you think, like, holy shit, Is

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<v Speaker 2>this actually for real?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this? Could this happen in our world?

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<v Speaker 1>And it did well? And you don't even know the

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<v Speaker 1>tip of the iceberg on this case.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I know very little really, but it's a big one.

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<v Speaker 3>Though.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a lot that I didn't know about this

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<v Speaker 1>case when I went into researching, and wait that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy fuck, we're gonna be very disturbed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we are so well, I'm already disturbed. If you

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<v Speaker 1>guys know this case, you're with me, And if you

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<v Speaker 1>don't know this case, you're with Nicole, and you're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be disturbed on the way. Trust me on that one,

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<v Speaker 1>because ding dang, ding dang. This is a doozy. So

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<v Speaker 1>you ready, I think so, you think? So, let's do it. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>let's do it all right? Well, on the surface, Joseph

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<v Speaker 1>Cullinger was no different than any other working class father

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<v Speaker 1>in mid century America. He lived in a modest home

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<v Speaker 1>in Philadelphia, ran a small shoe repair business, and raised

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<v Speaker 1>his children alongside his wife. Betty yabors knew him as

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<v Speaker 1>a quiet man, bit eccentric. He had a fondness for

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<v Speaker 1>tinkering with shoes and odd inventions, and kept largely to himself.

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<v Speaker 1>To the outside world, he was unremarkable, but behind closed doors,

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<v Speaker 1>something monstrous was stirring. By the time his story would

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<v Speaker 1>come to light, Joseph Collinger would be responsible for a

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<v Speaker 1>string of crimes so bizarre, brutal, and senseless they would

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<v Speaker 1>leave one sorry, not one, several seasoned detectives absolutely stunned.

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<v Speaker 1>His victims would include the innocent, the unsuspecting, and, most chillingly,

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<v Speaker 1>his own flesh and blood. He would be described by

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<v Speaker 1>psychiatrists as deeply disturbed, plagued by visions, and controlled by

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<v Speaker 1>what he claimed were divine commands to destroy humanity. But

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<v Speaker 1>none of that was visible from the beginning. There were

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<v Speaker 1>no early newspaper headlines warning of danger, no police reports

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<v Speaker 1>hinting at the darkness behind mind, the walls that were

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<v Speaker 1>brewing inside. Just a man who fixed shoes for a living,

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<v Speaker 1>a man who would eventually tell the world that God

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<v Speaker 1>himself had chosen him for a terrible mission, one that

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<v Speaker 1>would begin with one death and spiral into a surreal

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<v Speaker 1>nightmare of violence and absolute madness. Now, what drove Joseph

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<v Speaker 1>Collinger to kill wasn't greed, vengeance, or even hatred in

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<v Speaker 1>the ordinary sense. Anyways, his crimes were fueled by something

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<v Speaker 1>far more unsettling, but long before the world knew his

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<v Speaker 1>name as a murderer, Joseph Collinger was a boy scarred

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<v Speaker 1>by rejection, abuse, and a mine unraveling from within. He

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<v Speaker 1>was born Joseph Lee Brenner II on December eleventh, nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>thirty five, in Philadelphia, to a young woman named Judith Renner.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>Judith's life was full of hardship. She survived polio as

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<v Speaker 1>a child, spent years bouncing betwe qween foster homes, and

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<v Speaker 1>found herself in a failing marriage. She found herself pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>by a married man and was terrified of losing custody

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<v Speaker 1>of a current daughter, Muriel. She was barely able to

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<v Speaker 1>make ends meet, so Judith made a desperate choice. She

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<v Speaker 1>was to place her now newborn son into an orphanage,

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<v Speaker 1>hoping a family somewhere out there could give him the

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<v Speaker 1>life that she couldn't. That family turned out to be

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen and Anna Cullinger, Australian immigrants who owned a modest

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<v Speaker 1>shoe repair shop in Philadelphia. Outwards, they seem like a

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<v Speaker 1>hard working couple, but inside the walls of their home

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<v Speaker 1>a far darker reality. Played out. The Callingers were very

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<v Speaker 1>deeply strict, emotionally distant, and prone to violence. They brought

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph home at a young age, just three, not out

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<v Speaker 1>of love, though, but as insurance against loneliness in old age, which,

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<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, is not a reason to.

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<v Speaker 3>Have a child.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh not at all. Here, Okay, I'm intrigued to hear

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<v Speaker 2>this because I'm like, oh, man, did they just get

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<v Speaker 2>a child that was pretty much born this way? Or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, did they kind of create this?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a lot of discrepancies and discussions in the

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<v Speaker 1>mind of Joseph Cullinger as he got older and became

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<v Speaker 1>who he was. So if you have some thoughts and opinions,

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<v Speaker 1>love to hear it, because it is still something massively debated.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, from the very beginning, joseph life with his adoptive

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<v Speaker 1>parents was one of cruelty and isolation. The Callingers believed

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<v Speaker 1>in rigid discipline and harsh punishments, and that these were

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<v Speaker 1>necessary to mold good character and individuals. They showed no affection,

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<v Speaker 1>no warmth, and no understanding. Every misstep, no matter how small,

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<v Speaker 1>was met with terrifying punishments. At times, he was even

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<v Speaker 1>forced to kneel on sandpaper until his knees split open

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<v Speaker 1>his skin was bleeding. He asked to attend some school

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<v Speaker 1>outings even at one point, and his mother responded with

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<v Speaker 1>beating him with a hammer. One particularly disturbing incident defined

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<v Speaker 1>his early years. When Joseph was around the age of five,

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<v Speaker 1>he was caught touching himself, an innocent act of childhood curiosity,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, learning about their body, that sort of thing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and Joseph he was also diagnosed with a hernia earlier

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<v Speaker 1>that year, and his parents told him in this incident

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<v Speaker 1>that the doctor who repaired his hernia also fixed his

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<v Speaker 1>penis to stop it from ever becoming aroused because his

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<v Speaker 1>genitals quote housed the devil.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, okay, that's that's something.

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<v Speaker 1>And they told him he had been cured of sin

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<v Speaker 1>and sexuality at five, at five years old, okay. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>That chilling lie planted a sea of confusion, fear, and

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<v Speaker 1>obsession that would twist Joseph's relationship with his own body

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<v Speaker 1>and with others for the rest of his life. As

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<v Speaker 1>the abuse continued, Joseph withdrew further into himself. He even

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<v Speaker 1>later began to steal his father's shoemaking knife, hiding it

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<v Speaker 1>in his room late at night, using it in disturbing ways.

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<v Speaker 1>He would slice holes in the walls, masturbating while fixating

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<v Speaker 1>on knives and mutilating images. But even then he felt

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<v Speaker 1>both exhilarated and disgusted by his own actions. At eight

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<v Speaker 1>years old, Joseph endured yet another trauma that further shaped

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<v Speaker 1>his fractured psyche. While running errands near the set of

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<v Speaker 1>abandoned train tracks, a place where he often visited to

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<v Speaker 1>escape his impressive home life, he stumbled upon a group

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<v Speaker 1>of slightly older boys from his neighborhood. Now these boys

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<v Speaker 1>were let's just say, engaging in quote mutual sexual acts

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<v Speaker 1>with one another, okay, But rather than letting Joseph leave

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<v Speaker 1>when he encountered them or ignoring his presence, the boys

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<v Speaker 1>reacted cruel cruelly. At knife point, they forced Joseph to

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<v Speaker 1>participate in the acts against his will, and in that moment,

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph became a victim of sexual assault and was forced

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<v Speaker 1>to perform oral sex on one of the boys. He

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<v Speaker 1>was terrified, confused, and utterly powerless in the situation. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a horrific experience for someone so young, let alone

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<v Speaker 1>anyone of any age. But it combined overwhelming fear with

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<v Speaker 1>feelings of helplessness, and it etched into him in a

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<v Speaker 1>dangerous way for associating between sex, violence, and domination. By adolescence,

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph's life had splintered into two worlds, the outer appearance

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<v Speaker 1>of a quiet, isolated boy and an inner life dominated

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<v Speaker 1>by dark fantasies. His obsessions with knives deepened, his fantasies

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<v Speaker 1>turned violent. He would tear out magazine photos of women,

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<v Speaker 1>stabbing the pictures before ejaculating and climaxing, only to be

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<v Speaker 1>consumed by overwhelming guilt afterwards. And then came the voices.

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<v Speaker 1>At age fifteen, Joseph heard what he believed would be

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<v Speaker 1>the voice of God. It wasn't just a fleeting thought, though,

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<v Speaker 1>it was a full on auditory hallucination. The voice told

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<v Speaker 1>him he had a divine mission through orthopedic manipulation. By

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<v Speaker 1>controlling the feet of people, he would control the mind.

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<v Speaker 1>He was to heal mankind by altering how people walked.

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<v Speaker 1>What began as an isolated delusion soon consumed him, and

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<v Speaker 1>he would eventually even go on to conduct over forty

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<v Speaker 1>thousand orthopedic experiments over the next two decades, creating strange

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<v Speaker 1>heal inserts, meticulously documenting shoe altercations and alterations, becoming convinced

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<v Speaker 1>that he was destined to either save the world or

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<v Speaker 1>even at times destroy it. But while his mind focused

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<v Speaker 1>on this imagined calling, the emotional damage and loneliness only deepened.

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<v Speaker 1>The boy who had never been wanted, never been loved,

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<v Speaker 1>and never knew safety was growing into a man teetering

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<v Speaker 1>on the brink of madness. Now in his late teens,

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph calling Or seemed on the surface to be pulling

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<v Speaker 1>his life together. He dropped out of high school, but

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<v Speaker 1>he found steady work in the only trade he knew, shoemaking,

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<v Speaker 1>where he of course was building on this obsession. But

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<v Speaker 1>more surprisingly, he fell in love. At age sixteen, he

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<v Speaker 1>married a young woman named Hilda, and the two started

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<v Speaker 1>a family together in Philadelphia. But Joseph's past wasn't something

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<v Speaker 1>he could leave behind. The deep psychological scars and the

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<v Speaker 1>growing mental illness that had taken root in his childhood

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<v Speaker 1>followed him into adulthood. Early signs of paranoia, obsessive thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>and explosive temper surfaced almost immediately. His relationship with Hilda

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<v Speaker 1>was volatile. When she gave birth to their first child,

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<v Speaker 1>she in fact showed little interest in motherhood, a reality

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<v Speaker 1>that pushed Joseph further into despair, and by the time

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<v Speaker 1>their second child arrived, Hilda was desperate to leave. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>she even sought an abortion, a decision Joseph, despite his

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<v Speaker 1>own dark nature, completely opposed. The marriage collapsed soon after,

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<v Speaker 1>and Hilda abandoned the children, leaving Joseph with them.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh Man, those poor kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph, overwhelmed by the rejection, placed the children in temporary

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<v Speaker 1>care and filed for di vorce. This pattern of abandonment, paranoia,

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<v Speaker 1>and spiraling mental health would soon become a hallmark in

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph's life. But before his most violent impulses took hold,

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<v Speaker 1>there was one more attempt at some normalcy. In nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>fifty eight, Joseph met Betty, a young woman with whom

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<v Speaker 1>he shared an immediate connection. They married not long after,

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<v Speaker 1>and for a brief time, life seemed stable. They eventually

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<v Speaker 1>had five children together, in fact, Michael, Joey, Mary, Joe, Jimmy,

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<v Speaker 1>and little Bonnie. Joseph also reconnected with the two children

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<v Speaker 1>from his first marriage, bringing the total number of children

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<v Speaker 1>that he fathered to seven, but stability was more or

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<v Speaker 1>less an illusion. Joseph's control over Betty quickly became oppressive.

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<v Speaker 1>He grew jealous, paranoid that she would leave him as

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<v Speaker 1>Hilda had, and he installed bars in the windows forbade

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<v Speaker 1>her from leaving the house without him, and controlled every

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<v Speaker 1>aspect of her life. His mental health, untreated and deteriorating,

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<v Speaker 1>began to manifest in more alarming ways. He heard voices

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<v Speaker 1>both divine and demonic. He spoke of visions. He developed

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<v Speaker 1>bizarre compulsions, installing a homemade bowling lane in their bedroom,

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<v Speaker 1>which honestly sounds fucking awesome to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, like if someone wants to sleep and the other

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<v Speaker 2>person wants to bowl.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, don't even the voices, all that shit. Everything

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<v Speaker 1>sounds horrible. But just a bowling lane in your house,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sold. I'm sorry, that sounds so cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it does sound cool. I also just have to say, though,

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<v Speaker 2>the just like listening to his upbringing and like even

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<v Speaker 2>him as like a young adult. Now, it's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite a lot. Really, it is a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a lot for anyone to bear. Yeah, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>burden that will be carried throughout someone's entire life experiences

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<v Speaker 1>like that shape someone.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, so I'm fully thinking like he was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of developed into this. He may also have mental health

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<v Speaker 2>issues that need to be treated, and back then, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't really know if they had, you know, necessarily treatment

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<v Speaker 2>for that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there are some things about some of his mental

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<v Speaker 1>health things that may have come out of his upbringing,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's also speculation on some of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>he may have also just had.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you have some things where you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>you're already being affected in your upbringing, then you're just

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<v Speaker 1>born with certain things, and it makes this like soup

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<v Speaker 1>of what the fuck? Maybe that's how he turned out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but try me.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll discuss that near the end. Now, there were some

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<v Speaker 1>other things he was doing other than you know, just

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<v Speaker 1>building bowling alleys in his bedroom. He even forced Betty

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<v Speaker 1>to make dozens of cups of tea in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of a night and obsessively bringing home junk for his

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<v Speaker 1>orthopedic experiments that he was now progressing tea tea.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, like dozens of coups wanted or he just wanted

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<v Speaker 2>her to make this.

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<v Speaker 1>I I'm actually I'm not too sure if he was

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<v Speaker 1>specifically drinking them all. But he's just like, yeah, go

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<v Speaker 1>make some tea for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Huh.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty sure I'm assuming he was drinking them.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, if we wake up at the same time we're

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of that, you know what, I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to be asking.

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<v Speaker 1>For a bowling lane, No, for a cup of tea. Yeah. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>as strange as these behaviors were, they weren't violent yet

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<v Speaker 1>physically violent at the very least. There was some psychological

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<v Speaker 1>stuff behind some of them, for sure, but the more

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<v Speaker 1>violent things would come later. In nineteen sixty seven, financial

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<v Speaker 1>troubles and Joseph's declining mental state forced the family to

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<v Speaker 1>move into a home with his adoptive parents, the very

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<v Speaker 1>people who had abused him as a child.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, and yeah, he's bringing his kids into that environment.

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<v Speaker 1>Being back in that house reawakened some old traumas Joseph's erratic,

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<v Speaker 1>volatile behavior, it just compounded. He would pace the halls

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<v Speaker 1>for hours at night, dragging his children with him on

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<v Speaker 1>midnight walks, convincing everyone around him or trying to that

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<v Speaker 1>unseen enemies were watching them. The visions grew darker. He

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<v Speaker 1>became obsessed with fire, In fact, multiple times he even

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<v Speaker 1>set their home ablaze, claiming voices had commanded him to

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<v Speaker 1>do it.

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<v Speaker 4>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>The family suffered repeated financial ruin from these arson attacks,

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<v Speaker 1>but Betty, isolated, controlled, and very much so guaranteed to

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<v Speaker 1>be afraid, she stayed. It was also during that time

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<v Speaker 1>that Joseph began to involve his children, particularly his son Michael,

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00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.920
<v Speaker 1>and his twisted fantasies. He created what he called lessons,

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<v Speaker 1>where he would take his children one at a time

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<v Speaker 1>into the basement and expose them to disturbing rituals. While

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<v Speaker 1>there's no indication that he sexually assaulted his children in

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<v Speaker 1>these rituals, the psychological damage was profound. Let's say the

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00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.559
<v Speaker 1>lessons often involved nudity, knives, and acts that blurred the

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<v Speaker 1>line between discipline and complete trauma. Yet despite everything, Joseph

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00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:31.240
<v Speaker 1>still maintained that double life. By day, he was the

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00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.440
<v Speaker 1>neighborhood shoemaker, a quiet man running his own business. By night,

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00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:40.880
<v Speaker 1>his mind was unraveling. The once innocent orthopedic experiments turned obsessive.

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<v Speaker 1>He kept carving new inserts, convinced that by manipulating how

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00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.720
<v Speaker 1>people walked, he could cure diseases, control thoughts or bring

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<v Speaker 1>about salvation. But Joseph's visions were beginning to shift. The

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00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.240
<v Speaker 1>command to heal the world through shoes was giving a

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<v Speaker 1>way to something a little more darker.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, wait, I have a quick question. Was he getting

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<v Speaker 2>like a good or bad reputation with what he was

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<v Speaker 2>doing to people's shoes? And like you almost wonder if

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<v Speaker 2>he was getting complaints or anything, like people are getting

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<v Speaker 2>their shoe back and being like this doesn't feel comfortable.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not too sure if he was doing things like

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00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:19.400
<v Speaker 1>that people would notice per se. Oh like maybe instead

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00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.799
<v Speaker 1>of like certain maybe put a certain type of wood

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<v Speaker 1>in the heel for support, things like that. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>too sure exactly. I didn't dive into the things he

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00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:30.759
<v Speaker 1>was doing, Okay. I mean, if you're doing over forty

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<v Speaker 1>thousand different experiments, I can only imagine how many different

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00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:39.759
<v Speaker 1>things you try different threads. Maybe it'd sprinkle certain types

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<v Speaker 1>of sand underneath like who knows, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it could be very minor things that people

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<v Speaker 2>may not even notice. I guess say I.

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<v Speaker 1>Would assume it was things that people wouldn't really notice.

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<v Speaker 1>At least most of them wouldn't be noticeable. That's my assumption,

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<v Speaker 1>right in January nineteen seventy two, just a few years

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<v Speaker 1>before his ultimate spiral, Joseph had actually been arrested for

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<v Speaker 1>child cruelty and assault after two of his children, Joey

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<v Speaker 1>and Mary joe fled their home and went to police.

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<v Speaker 1>They told horrifying stories of years of physical and psychological torment,

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<v Speaker 1>some of those things he was doing in the ritual rights.

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00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:20.000
<v Speaker 1>In one chilling example, Joseph had burned Joey's inner thigh

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<v Speaker 1>with a heated metal spatula, supposedly to stop him from

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00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.319
<v Speaker 1>quote sinning damn. And then he had beaten his other

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00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:31.200
<v Speaker 1>son with a metal head of a hammer. The case

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00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.200
<v Speaker 1>went to court, and though he was convicted, Joseph avoided

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00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:39.079
<v Speaker 1>jail time, receiving psychiatric probation instead. But for some in

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement, the image of Joseph Kalinger as a dangerous

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<v Speaker 1>and disturbed man had already taken root.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>It was at this point in the early nineteen seventies

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<v Speaker 1>that Joseph Kalinger's descent into madness officially passed the point

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<v Speaker 1>of no return. He was no longer a reluctant prophet

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<v Speaker 1>seeking to save humanity. He was now a chosen individual

347
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.880
<v Speaker 1>or instrument to destroy it, and for that he decided

348
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.279
<v Speaker 1>he would need an accomplice. His oldest son with Betty,

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Kallinger, became the focus of Joseph's new terrifying plan.

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<v Speaker 1>Michael was just twelve years old when his father approached

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<v Speaker 1>him in an unthinkable proposal. Together, they would carry out

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00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:27.079
<v Speaker 1>robberies and eventually murder. Joseph framed this as a divine mission,

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<v Speaker 1>a father and sons bond sealed not by love but

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<v Speaker 1>by blood and violence. Now, whether through fear, manipulation, or

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00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:40.480
<v Speaker 1>damage already inflicted upon him, Michael agreed to his dad's

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<v Speaker 1>proposal without hesitation.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he was twelve years old. I feel like

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<v Speaker 2>almost any twelve year old would agree to whatever their

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00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.799
<v Speaker 2>dad was, yeah, you know, propositioning to them.

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00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.039
<v Speaker 1>Exactly, trusting in their father for what this could be.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, so disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>Now. The first crimes were relatively small. In June of

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy four, Joseph and Michael began committing a string

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<v Speaker 1>of burglaries across Pennsylvania and New Jersey. They still cash,

365
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:09.119
<v Speaker 1>jewelry and anything of value, but something darker was stirring

366
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<v Speaker 1>beneath these petty crimes. Joseph's hallucinations were still escalating, and

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<v Speaker 1>the voices were growing louder. They didn't just want theft,

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<v Speaker 1>They've demanded a sacrifice. On July seventh, nineteen seventy four,

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph told Michael he wanted to kill someone that day.

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<v Speaker 1>There was no discussion, no debate. Michael simply said, okay, Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>My gosh, this is just so not okay.

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<v Speaker 1>The pair set out into the streets of Philadelphia that afternoon,

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<v Speaker 1>hunting for a victim. Near a playground, they spotted a boy,

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<v Speaker 1>oh no, nine year old jose Colazo, playing alone with

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<v Speaker 1>a cigarette lighter. Joseph approached him, kindly, striking up a conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>and he told the boy that he needed help moving

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<v Speaker 1>boxes and promise he'd be home by nine o'clock. Now

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00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:00.400
<v Speaker 1>jose likely hesitated, but, as children often do, and fronted

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<v Speaker 1>by an adult for one reason or another, he agreed

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00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.319
<v Speaker 1>to help. Joseph led the boy to an abandoned building

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<v Speaker 1>near G Street and Indiana Avenue, an old, crumbling factory

382
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:16.559
<v Speaker 1>with no power, no lights, and no one around inside.

383
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.559
<v Speaker 1>They bound the boy's hands and ankles with an old

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00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:24.880
<v Speaker 1>electrical cord. As jose began to panic, Michael, on his

385
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<v Speaker 1>father's command, sodomized the young nine.

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<v Speaker 2>Year old joh Okay, this is just the freaking start too,

387
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:33.200
<v Speaker 2>isn't it.

388
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.359
<v Speaker 1>Then, with chilling calm Michael severed the boy's penis with

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00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.759
<v Speaker 1>a knife, and then the two left the boy to

390
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:44.240
<v Speaker 1>bleed to death in the dark, taking his clothes with

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<v Speaker 1>them as they slipped back into the night.

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<v Speaker 2>So he did die.

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00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Back at home, they ate dinner with their family as

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00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.319
<v Speaker 1>though nothing ever happened. It was Joseph's first real murder

395
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.319
<v Speaker 1>and had not brought the satisfaction that he had imagined.

396
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<v Speaker 4>Oh man.

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00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 1>He later confessed that he was disappointed by how dark

398
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:05.960
<v Speaker 1>it had been in the factory. He couldn't even see

399
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:06.680
<v Speaker 1>the blood.

400
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Clearly, Holy shit, like, oh like a nine year old boy.

401
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.920
<v Speaker 2>They just did this too correct, and it just like

402
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:20.880
<v Speaker 2>unleashed the beast. Really, I feel like of what's to come.

403
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:26.160
<v Speaker 1>That's the start. Yes, yeah, Now, the sickness was evolving,

404
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.839
<v Speaker 1>and that is a thing that's constantly going on with

405
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:32.079
<v Speaker 1>this is this battle, this illness, with these these inner

406
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:34.799
<v Speaker 1>demons or these voices, however you want to put it.

407
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:40.000
<v Speaker 1>It was constantly growing, constantly getting stronger, constantly getting darker,

408
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.920
<v Speaker 1>and two weeks later, on July twenty first, nineteen seventy four,

409
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Joseph's visions turned inward. This time, the voices named his

410
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:54.519
<v Speaker 1>own thirteen year old son, Joey as the next sacrifice.

411
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 1>He claimed to see Joey falling from a mountaintop, and

412
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.839
<v Speaker 1>the message was clear. To fulfill the MISSI, he needed

413
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:06.480
<v Speaker 1>to kill his own child. Joseph planned several failed attempts.

414
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.839
<v Speaker 1>He took Joey, Michael, and his youngest son Jimmy, to

415
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.960
<v Speaker 1>bus terminals, train stations, and even towards abandoned mine shafts.

416
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:18.160
<v Speaker 1>Each time Joseph's courage faltered, though it's obvious what he

417
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.599
<v Speaker 1>was planning, he would panic, make an excuse and abandon

418
00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:23.480
<v Speaker 1>the plans, and at one point he even tried to

419
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.880
<v Speaker 1>set up an accidental fall from a construction site, positioning

420
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Joey for a photo near the scaffolding edge. But again

421
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:37.000
<v Speaker 1>you couldn't follow through. The pressure from the visions were relentless, though,

422
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.680
<v Speaker 1>and Michael, by now fully immersed in his father's warped world,

423
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:42.079
<v Speaker 1>urged him on.

424
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I was going to ask if he knew

425
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:45.920
<v Speaker 2>this plan.

426
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Michael knew, and shockingly enough, no, he's he's pushing his

427
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.880
<v Speaker 1>father to actually go for the killing and make it happen.

428
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:52.400
<v Speaker 4>Damn.

429
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.319
<v Speaker 1>Then finally, on July twenty eighth, nineteen seventy four, Joseph

430
00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:02.279
<v Speaker 1>made good on his prophecy. After another staged outing, they

431
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:06.359
<v Speaker 1>lured Joey into an abandoned construction site. They found a

432
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:12.279
<v Speaker 1>steel staircase that led underground to a partially flooded sub basement. There,

433
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Joseph and Michael handcuffed Joey to a metal ladder and

434
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.920
<v Speaker 1>submerged him into the water until he drowned.

435
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh whoa, Okay, that that's a terrible way to die.

436
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. They left his body there in the water, walked

437
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.279
<v Speaker 1>home in silence, and reported Joey missing later that night,

438
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:32.400
<v Speaker 1>as if nothing happened.

439
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:32.920
<v Speaker 4>Yep.

440
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's one thing to go about like hurting

441
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:38.599
<v Speaker 2>I guess people you don't really know, which is still terrible,

442
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 2>don't get me wrong. But then to actually do it

443
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.160
<v Speaker 2>to a kid that you like created is pretty messed up.

444
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.519
<v Speaker 1>It's it seems like, yeah, it's there's a lot more

445
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.160
<v Speaker 1>going on there. Yeah. Yeah, Like you say, it's terrible

446
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:55.920
<v Speaker 1>regardless of who, But there there's that attachment, there's that

447
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.720
<v Speaker 1>bond there, it's breaking something almost sacred in a real relationship,

448
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:05.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, like a father should be protective exactly and

449
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>instead he's doing the exact opposite.

450
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:08.200
<v Speaker 4>Yep.

451
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.720
<v Speaker 1>Now, for two weeks, Joseph even pretended to search for

452
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:17.680
<v Speaker 1>his missing son, joining community efforts and police investigations. No way,

453
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:21.839
<v Speaker 1>and on August ninth, Joey's decomposed body was found, but

454
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the case of the death was was listed as undetermined.

455
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:31.599
<v Speaker 1>Police quietly suspected Joseph, but without evidence, the case was stalled.

456
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Now Joseph's mind was at this point no longer his own.

457
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:38.960
<v Speaker 1>After the murder of his son Joey in July of

458
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy four, Joseph Collinger's descent into madness continued to

459
00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:47.519
<v Speaker 1>accelerate at a much deeper level. The death of his

460
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:52.480
<v Speaker 1>son had broken something permanent, and the whispers he heard,

461
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:57.880
<v Speaker 1>the twisted commands, they were louder than ever before. The

462
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:01.640
<v Speaker 1>act of killing, which he believed was divinely mandated mission,

463
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.559
<v Speaker 1>didn't bring the relief of transformation he had imagined. Instead,

464
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.960
<v Speaker 1>the voices in his head, the ones that had come

465
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:12.519
<v Speaker 1>to identify as God's command, or so he said, only

466
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.119
<v Speaker 1>grew louder and more erratic. The next target in his

467
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:21.920
<v Speaker 1>twisted vision became his youngest child, fifteen month old Bonnie.

468
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Born with mysterious sores on her skin, Bonnie became a

469
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.920
<v Speaker 1>focal point of a new delusion. Joseph became convinced that

470
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.279
<v Speaker 1>the only way to heal her was through a grotesque

471
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 1>ritual combining a woman's vaginal fluids with his own semen

472
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:42.000
<v Speaker 1>and perfume, which he believed would create a salve to

473
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:42.720
<v Speaker 1>cure her.

474
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Holy like, how can someone even come up with that shit?

475
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:51.440
<v Speaker 1>While in pursuit of this cure quote unquote, Joseph enlisted

476
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Michael once again. On November twenty second, nineteen seventy four,

477
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.000
<v Speaker 1>they traveled across the river to Camden, New Jersey. There,

478
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 1>they selected a woman aimed Joan Cardi, posing as door

479
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:06.200
<v Speaker 1>to door salesman selling tie clips, which was a trick

480
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Speaker 1>to confirm whether there was men present in the house

481
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 1>or not. They gained entry to her home and once inside,

482
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.680
<v Speaker 1>they bound her, stripped her, and Joseph sexually assaulted her,

483
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.079
<v Speaker 1>not for gratification, but to obtain the bodily fluids he

484
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.079
<v Speaker 1>believed were key to saving his daughter. Then, returning home

485
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.359
<v Speaker 1>with what he collected. He followed the ritual meticulously. He

486
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 1>mixed the stolen fluids with perfume and his own seamen

487
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:35.359
<v Speaker 1>and applied it to bonnie sores, but unsurprisingly, nothing happened.

488
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.039
<v Speaker 1>The child's condition remained unchanged, and another delusion was another failure.

489
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>That is so fucked up.

490
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is wholly. With his frustration and despair deepening,

491
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 1>Joseph's hallucinations again shifted his mission briefly shifted back to healing,

492
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.279
<v Speaker 1>but it was now no longer about that healing. It

493
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:59.160
<v Speaker 1>was now about pure destruction. To him. It was a

494
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.519
<v Speaker 1>matter of he couldn't save the world, so since that's

495
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:05.680
<v Speaker 1>the case, he now needs to tear it down. So

496
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:08.640
<v Speaker 1>on December third, nineteen seventy four, Joseph and Michael set

497
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:13.880
<v Speaker 1>out again, this time to Susquehanna, Pennsylvania. They broke into

498
00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:17.680
<v Speaker 1>the home of sixty five year old Helen Bogan while

499
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.160
<v Speaker 1>she was out shopping. When Helen returned around eleven thirty

500
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.839
<v Speaker 1>am arms full of groceries, Joseph ambushed her. He pressed

501
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.240
<v Speaker 1>a butcher knife to her cheek and forced her upstairs,

502
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:32.079
<v Speaker 1>bound her to an overturned bed frame. He then doused

503
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.599
<v Speaker 1>cotton balls with lighter fluids and placed them on her eyes,

504
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.759
<v Speaker 1>his plan to burn her alive, igniting her face as

505
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:46.680
<v Speaker 1>the hallucinations were demanding. However, at the very last second,

506
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:52.920
<v Speaker 1>these hallucinations, these voices, the visions, they stopped. They vanished,

507
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.079
<v Speaker 1>just as he had with Joey. Joseph now was hesitating.

508
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:00.440
<v Speaker 1>The voices were gone, and with them, the will to

509
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.240
<v Speaker 1>kill did leave as well, And before he could decide

510
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:08.680
<v Speaker 1>what to do, the doorbell rang. Helen's Bridge. Friends were

511
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:10.319
<v Speaker 1>arriving for their weekly.

512
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.799
<v Speaker 2>Game, Oh thank goodness.

513
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.920
<v Speaker 1>So one by one Joseph overpowered each new arrival at

514
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:20.759
<v Speaker 1>the door, oh Ethel Cohen Thalmasudin and Anna Pearl Frankston.

515
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:25.279
<v Speaker 1>Each was tied up with makeshift restraints. Joseph maintained an

516
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.079
<v Speaker 1>eerie calm, even in fact, he was granting some small kindnesses.

517
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 1>He let one woman keep her glasses. He honored another's

518
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.160
<v Speaker 1>request to not be gagged due to breathing issues. His

519
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:42.119
<v Speaker 1>delusions were selective. Some boundaries remained, others didn't. Meanwhile, Michael

520
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 1>was growing increasingly restless. He viewed the hesitation as weakness.

521
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:50.519
<v Speaker 1>He wanted the killings to happen, not the elaborate games

522
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:53.400
<v Speaker 1>that Joseph seemed to trap him in, but once again

523
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:57.880
<v Speaker 1>the murders didn't material materialize. Instead, they robbed the house,

524
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.480
<v Speaker 1>stealing around twenty thousand dollars or so worth of cash, jewelry,

525
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.960
<v Speaker 1>and then left the victims physically unharmed.

526
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.759
<v Speaker 2>Okay, here, At first, I was like, oh, man, okay,

527
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:08.799
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna run off like someone's at the door. But

528
00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:12.640
<v Speaker 2>then they started tying them up. I was like, oh shit, yes, but.

529
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:16.160
<v Speaker 1>With the with the delusions and voices and such, with

530
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:19.559
<v Speaker 1>them actually stopping, that will to kill was now gone. Okay,

531
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:23.839
<v Speaker 1>So he's sitting here in this situation, calmly taking care

532
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.319
<v Speaker 1>of it, calmly making sure he has the control he needs,

533
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:29.440
<v Speaker 1>and then resolving it with well, let's just rob the

534
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:30.440
<v Speaker 1>place and go.

535
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

536
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:35.319
<v Speaker 1>On December tenth, just one week later, Joseph and Michael

537
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.880
<v Speaker 1>struck again, this time in another upper middle class neighborhood.

538
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:44.000
<v Speaker 1>They broke into the home of Pamela Jossich just Chi.

539
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.720
<v Speaker 1>There we go, Just Chi. Joseph forced her at gunpoint

540
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:52.400
<v Speaker 1>to perform oral sex while Michael ransacked the house. Once again,

541
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>they left without killing, but each encounter edged them closer

542
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.640
<v Speaker 1>to the inevitable than On January sixteenth, nineteenth seventy five,

543
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.880
<v Speaker 1>they attacked again. This time it was Mary Rudolph, a

544
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:10.799
<v Speaker 1>woman in Dumont, New Jersey. The pattern was identical, home invasion, binding,

545
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:17.200
<v Speaker 1>sexual assault, robbery. Again, the hallucinations, though, were dictating the behavior,

546
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.480
<v Speaker 1>and when the visions dispatched, so did the resolve to kill.

547
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.559
<v Speaker 1>Michael was now barely a teenager. He was increasingly becoming

548
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.440
<v Speaker 1>eager for violence and to commit these crimes, and became

549
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 1>openly frustrated with his father's restraint. Each time Joseph failed

550
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.000
<v Speaker 1>to follow through, the tension built. His belief was that

551
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.000
<v Speaker 1>he was destined to destroy humanity, pressed harder, and this

552
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:44.920
<v Speaker 1>already fragile mind was there and its cracking. Michael, for

553
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:47.279
<v Speaker 1>his part, was no longer just a willing participant. He

554
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:50.400
<v Speaker 1>was becoming a co conspirator with it all at this point,

555
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.160
<v Speaker 1>with his own dark desires and his own mind that

556
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.920
<v Speaker 1>was beginning to crack. The pace of their crimes were quickening.

557
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:01.200
<v Speaker 1>The escalation was coming, and this time, when the visions

558
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:05.559
<v Speaker 1>were turned, Joseph wouldn't stop, because he was officially hurtling

559
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:13.360
<v Speaker 1>towards complete psychological collapse. His hallucinations once sporadic, were then

560
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:18.079
<v Speaker 1>building and have now become constant companions always with him,

561
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and with thirteen year old Michael desensitized and eager for violence,

562
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:27.760
<v Speaker 1>it was all too much. He was willing to follow

563
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.360
<v Speaker 1>his father's lead, and on January eighth, nineteen seventy five,

564
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:36.880
<v Speaker 1>the pair arrived in Leonia, New Jersey. Their target the

565
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:41.480
<v Speaker 1>home of the Kneller family. The home belonged to Rita

566
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:44.440
<v Speaker 1>and Randy Kneller, who lived there with their young son

567
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.400
<v Speaker 1>and bedridden elderly grandmother. When Joseph and Michael entered the home,

568
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:53.519
<v Speaker 1>they immediately took control, brandishing a gun and a knife.

569
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:57.000
<v Speaker 1>The women, terrified, complied as Joseph gathered them together on

570
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.119
<v Speaker 1>the main floor of the house. Now the grandmother, helplessly upstairs,

571
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:06.039
<v Speaker 1>was left untouched. The invaders began methodically tying up the

572
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:10.320
<v Speaker 1>hostages with whatever they could find electrical cords, coat hangers, belts.

573
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.880
<v Speaker 1>But as they worked, the front doorbell rang Visitors the

574
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.199
<v Speaker 1>Kneller's friends were arriving one by one. Joseph calmly answered

575
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:23.239
<v Speaker 1>the door and ushered each new arrival into the unfolding

576
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:27.800
<v Speaker 1>nightmare inside. A total of eight hostages were eventually brought

577
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.800
<v Speaker 1>under control, including a young boy and a woman by

578
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.719
<v Speaker 1>the name of Maria Fashing, a twenty one year old

579
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.199
<v Speaker 1>nurse and family friend who had come to visit. She

580
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.519
<v Speaker 1>was the last one to enter the home. For Joseph,

581
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.719
<v Speaker 1>Maria would become the symbol of everything the voice in

582
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:47.840
<v Speaker 1>his head demanded he destroyed. The atmosphere inside the house

583
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:53.280
<v Speaker 1>was tense but eerily controlled. Joseph seemed oddly polite at moments,

584
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:56.519
<v Speaker 1>even apologetic. He told his captives he wasn't going to

585
00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 1>hurt them, just rob them, he reassured. The women even

586
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:03.400
<v Speaker 1>follow following what he had done before, allowing small comforts.

587
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.800
<v Speaker 1>But underneath the surface, the hallucinations were still there. The

588
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.119
<v Speaker 1>supreme power, the dark figure Joseph saw on his visions,

589
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 1>whispered that this wasn't enough. Blood needed to be spilt.

590
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.840
<v Speaker 1>This time, Joseph ordered the largest man amongst the captives

591
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:25.840
<v Speaker 1>to a pipe in the basement, where he was bound

592
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:29.119
<v Speaker 1>to it. The original plan, if it could be called that,

593
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.519
<v Speaker 1>was to mutilate the man's genitals, a twisted act Joseph

594
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.000
<v Speaker 1>believed was central to his new divine mission of destroying

595
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:42.840
<v Speaker 1>mankind by attacking sexuality itself. But Joseph's hallucinations in that moment,

596
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:46.360
<v Speaker 1>In that last moment shifted Now in his mind, it

597
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.519
<v Speaker 1>wasn't this man who he needed to start with. It

598
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.199
<v Speaker 1>was Maria instead, who became the target. See, she was

599
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:56.920
<v Speaker 1>vocal and defiant. Joseph had brought her into the basement

600
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:00.679
<v Speaker 1>and demanded that she assisted in the mutilation of this man,

601
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:04.320
<v Speaker 1>but she flat out refused, telling him she would rather

602
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:08.800
<v Speaker 1>die than do what he demanded. She didn't beg she

603
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:14.199
<v Speaker 1>didn't break nothing, and this was exactly the trigger that

604
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.280
<v Speaker 1>the visions demanded. In that moment, she was now the target.

605
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:21.559
<v Speaker 1>Joseph grabbed a knife and stabbed Maria in the neck.

606
00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.760
<v Speaker 1>She tried to scream, but she could only gurgle as

607
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.719
<v Speaker 1>blood spilled into her airway. Joseph stabbed her again and

608
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.280
<v Speaker 1>again until her body crumpled to the basement floor, spilling

609
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:36.320
<v Speaker 1>blood onto the concrete. In that moment, the calling Air

610
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.679
<v Speaker 1>killing spree had finally claimed its first adult victim. The

611
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:45.320
<v Speaker 1>barrier Joseph had so often stopped short of crossing was obliterated,

612
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:50.679
<v Speaker 1>and that murder triggered chaos. Meanwhile, upstairs, one of the

613
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:54.000
<v Speaker 1>women managed to break free and she ran screaming into

614
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.079
<v Speaker 1>the streets. Neighbors heard the commotion, and sirens quickly followed.

615
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Okays, like quickly, I'm like this could turn into just

616
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.800
<v Speaker 2>a complete like bloodbath.

617
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

618
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:10.639
<v Speaker 1>Panicking, Joseph and Michael fled the house on foot, abandoning everything, hostages, weapons,

619
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:13.719
<v Speaker 1>stolen goods, all of it as they ran. Joseph even

620
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.920
<v Speaker 1>discarded a blood soaked shirt that he wore that even

621
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:22.800
<v Speaker 1>bore his last name on the laundry tag holy. In

622
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:27.920
<v Speaker 1>his frantic state, he left caution to the wind. Maria

623
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.920
<v Speaker 1>fashion was dead. The rest of the hostages, including the

624
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:35.119
<v Speaker 1>young child, survived, but the horror they endured would haunt

625
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:39.559
<v Speaker 1>them forever. Within days, the police were now closing in

626
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:43.079
<v Speaker 1>on Joseph. A neighbor had seen two men washing their

627
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.159
<v Speaker 1>hands and faces in a puddle near baseball field not

628
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:51.320
<v Speaker 1>far from the Neller home, discarding clothing. Witnesses had partial descriptions.

629
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.880
<v Speaker 1>The investigators were already of where Joseph, callingear's history, his

630
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:00.639
<v Speaker 1>prior arrest for child abuse, his missing son, his erratic behavior,

631
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.480
<v Speaker 1>and when Maria's murder first hit the news, detectives quietly

632
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 1>zeroed in on him. On January seventeenth, nineteen seventy five,

633
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:13.599
<v Speaker 1>just nine days after that murder, Joseph and Michael would

634
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:17.440
<v Speaker 1>be arrested. Police arrived at the calling her home. Joseph

635
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:20.360
<v Speaker 1>was already known to law enforcement thanks to his prior

636
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:24.119
<v Speaker 1>arrest and those sort of things. What they didn't know,

637
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:26.760
<v Speaker 1>what no one could have predicted, was that just how

638
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:30.239
<v Speaker 1>dark his crimes had become. Joseph and Michael were sitting

639
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:33.400
<v Speaker 1>inside the modest home in Philadelphia when officers knocked in

640
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 1>the front door. They were casually sorting through stolen coins

641
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.880
<v Speaker 1>from their recent robberies. Joseph's wife, Betty, answered the door.

642
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:45.440
<v Speaker 1>When officers demanded entry, She asked for a warrant, but

643
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.199
<v Speaker 1>in that moment, Joseph and Michael attempted to flee, reportedly

644
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.320
<v Speaker 1>trying to sneak out the back, but it was useless.

645
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:55.679
<v Speaker 1>The house was surrounded and they were quickly handcuffed on

646
00:39:55.800 --> 00:40:00.599
<v Speaker 1>the spot. What followed was an unspooling of chaos as

647
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 1>detectives across three states began piecing together with father and this.

648
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Father and son had done the bloodsoak chirk that Joseph

649
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:13.159
<v Speaker 1>clearly discarded carelessly and quickly recovered by police. The name

650
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:17.239
<v Speaker 1>tag had Callinger right on it and it removed any doubt.

651
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 1>Multiple witnesses, including neighbors and surviving victims from various attacks,

652
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:24.360
<v Speaker 1>identified the pair and police lineups. The list of the

653
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:30.679
<v Speaker 1>offenses stretched across Pennsylvania, New Jersey and beyond home invasions, assaults,

654
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.880
<v Speaker 1>sexual assaults, robbery, and of course, murders. Investigators also uncovered

655
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.320
<v Speaker 1>something even more disturbing. Joseph had taken out a significant

656
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:43.840
<v Speaker 1>life insurance policy on his murdered son, Joey. The policies

657
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:48.000
<v Speaker 1>totlled nearly seventy thousand dollars, which in nineteen seventy four

658
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:50.840
<v Speaker 1>was a fortune. Yeah, and they were barely a few

659
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.679
<v Speaker 1>months old when Joey's body was found in the abandoned

660
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:58.000
<v Speaker 1>building Yang. The case was no longer just a string

661
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:01.719
<v Speaker 1>of robberies. It was a murder, her profit, sadism, and

662
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:04.840
<v Speaker 1>something far more complex because it was a man teetering

663
00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:07.800
<v Speaker 1>on the edge of sanity dragging his own son into

664
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the abyss with him. Seeing these things, detectives quickly separated

665
00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Joseph and Michael. Michael, who was only still thirteen, was

666
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:21.039
<v Speaker 1>placed in juvenile detention. Thirteen thirteen. Psychologists were brought in

667
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:23.199
<v Speaker 1>to evaluate him, and what they found was a boy

668
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.719
<v Speaker 1>who was hostile, rebellious, and disturbingly detached, but also someone

669
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:33.000
<v Speaker 1>who perhaps could still be saved. Michael, who had been

670
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.679
<v Speaker 1>a child under the control of a father who believed

671
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:39.480
<v Speaker 1>he was chosen by God to destroy mankind. Right, it

672
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:44.800
<v Speaker 1>was clear thebilitation process was possible, but how far it's

673
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:46.599
<v Speaker 1>only up to anyone to cass.

674
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:50.679
<v Speaker 2>He does have age on his side, right, so it's possible.

675
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.079
<v Speaker 1>Definitely now. Joseph, on the other hand, was something else entirely.

676
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:58.480
<v Speaker 1>During questioning, he denied murdering Joey. He denied any knowledge

677
00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 1>of Maria and her or murder the death that occurred

678
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:05.239
<v Speaker 1>in that house. He blamed everything on outside forces, on hallucinations,

679
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:09.960
<v Speaker 1>on mysterious voices, on divine commands. At times he rambled

680
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:14.199
<v Speaker 1>about being thousand years old and about talking to God directly.

681
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Psychiatrists were brought in. Some suspected schizophrenia. Others thought it

682
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:24.679
<v Speaker 1>might be something more physical, perhaps Huntington's disease, which can

683
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:30.320
<v Speaker 1>cause involuntary movements, paranoia, and even dementia. Joseph himself requested

684
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:33.800
<v Speaker 1>testing for this Huntington's disease, but the results came back negative,

685
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.679
<v Speaker 1>and Joseph continued In years later to keep requesting more tests,

686
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:41.840
<v Speaker 1>but it was never proven to be positive. There was

687
00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.159
<v Speaker 1>no physical explanation for the way his mind worked. It

688
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.000
<v Speaker 1>was psychological and profoundly so when I say profound, I

689
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.559
<v Speaker 1>don't mean in a good profound way. Meanwhile, back in

690
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the Linonia, investigators worked around the clock to build their case.

691
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:02.039
<v Speaker 1>The surviving hostages from the Kneller home gave detailed statements.

692
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:05.559
<v Speaker 1>The physical evidence there was blood, fingerprints, discarded clothing. It

693
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.960
<v Speaker 1>was also overwhelming, and in Pennsylvania, authorities dug into Joey's

694
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.920
<v Speaker 1>suspicious death. However, without any direct witness, it was harder

695
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:18.199
<v Speaker 1>to prove. But suspicion fell heavily on Joseph, and while

696
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.480
<v Speaker 1>the surviving victims of the early robberies provided statements, many

697
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:25.199
<v Speaker 1>of the women Joseph had sexually assaulted were too traumatized

698
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 1>to testify, complicating those charges across all jurisdictions, One fact

699
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:35.400
<v Speaker 1>became clear. Joseph Callinger wasn't just a killer. He was

700
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:39.159
<v Speaker 1>a man who had slipped so far into delusion that

701
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:44.440
<v Speaker 1>reality no longer governed his actions. The question remained, would

702
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:46.960
<v Speaker 1>the court see him as a criminal or as a

703
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.920
<v Speaker 1>madman beyond control? The first of Joseph Callinger's many trials

704
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:58.000
<v Speaker 1>began in June nineteenth. On nineteen seventy five, the charges

705
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:01.920
<v Speaker 1>were connected to the non lethal crime, things like robbery, burglary,

706
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:05.920
<v Speaker 1>false imprisonment, those sort of things, the home invasions and such.

707
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.440
<v Speaker 1>But the questions hanging over the courtroom wasn't just whether

708
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:12.800
<v Speaker 1>he committed these crimes, it was whether he was legally

709
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 1>sane when he did them. From the onset, the defense

710
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.719
<v Speaker 1>focused squarely on Joseph's mind. His lawyers argued that he

711
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:25.639
<v Speaker 1>was deeply mentally ill, suffering from hallucinations so powerful and

712
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.400
<v Speaker 1>persistent that he couldn't distinguish reality from the bizarre visions

713
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:32.800
<v Speaker 1>commanding him to kill. They even suggested that years of

714
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.880
<v Speaker 1>exposure to toxic chemicals from working in a poorly ventilated

715
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:39.760
<v Speaker 1>shoe repair shop may have damaged his brain, contributing to

716
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 1>that delusion as well. Prosecutors painted a very different picture.

717
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.239
<v Speaker 1>They pointed to the methodical way Joseph and Michael had

718
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:52.199
<v Speaker 1>planned their crimes, casing home, selecting victims, timing their break ins.

719
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.679
<v Speaker 1>They highlighted Joseph's deliberate disposal of evidence, burning bloody clothes,

720
00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:01.519
<v Speaker 1>hiding weapons, even changing his story repeatedly during questioning. This

721
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 1>wasn't madness, they argued, this was calculation. Joseph himself would

722
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.239
<v Speaker 1>take the stand in his own defense, which was against

723
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.039
<v Speaker 1>the advice of nearly anyone everyone on his legal team.

724
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:19.559
<v Speaker 1>What followed stunned the courtroom. He calmly informed the jury

725
00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 1>that he was one thousand years old. He said he

726
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 1>had once been a butterfly. He spoke of voices from

727
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:31.320
<v Speaker 1>God commanding him to save humanity by killing millions of people.

728
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:36.920
<v Speaker 1>He described the Supreme Power an unseeing entity guiding his hand.

729
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:41.280
<v Speaker 1>Every word he spoke underscored the central argument of his defense.

730
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.960
<v Speaker 1>Joseph was not sane.

731
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, I feel like his legal team was probably just

732
00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:54.079
<v Speaker 2>sitting there like just I don't just we're fucked basically, right.

733
00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Like potentially, But also his story is supporting their claim, yeah,

734
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:04.079
<v Speaker 1>of insanity to some degree, Right, yeah, I guess so. Now,

735
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.920
<v Speaker 1>despite that surreal testimony, let's put it that way. The

736
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.400
<v Speaker 1>jury deliberated for less than an hour, and they found Joseph,

737
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 1>calling her guilty on all counts. Now, remember this was

738
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:20.760
<v Speaker 1>for the non violent crimes, the break ins and stuff, right, Yeah, Well,

739
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.639
<v Speaker 1>I shouldn't say non violent, the non not murdering, Yeah,

740
00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean. The judge, visibly shaken by

741
00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:30.280
<v Speaker 1>the details of the case, described him as quote utterly

742
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:34.519
<v Speaker 1>vile and depraved, and then sentenced him to thirty to

743
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.320
<v Speaker 1>eighty years in prison for those charges alone.

744
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, but that was, of.

745
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.199
<v Speaker 1>Course just the beginning, because next came the more serious charges,

746
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.599
<v Speaker 1>the murder of Muria Fasting, which during the failed home

747
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:51.320
<v Speaker 1>invasion occurred right now. This trial, beginning in February of

748
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.639
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy six, put Joseph's mental state even more firmly

749
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:59.079
<v Speaker 1>in the spotlight. Once again, his defense pleaded insanity. This time,

750
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:02.480
<v Speaker 1>court appointed psych chiatrist had examined him in greater detail.

751
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:09.000
<v Speaker 1>The findings were damning. Joseph exhibited signs of severe psychosis, schizophrenia,

752
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:15.039
<v Speaker 1>impossible organic brain damage. He was, they argued, unable to

753
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:20.360
<v Speaker 1>control his actions. But the prosecution wasn't swayed. They brought

754
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.639
<v Speaker 1>forward surviving victims from that day, ordinary people who looked

755
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:26.119
<v Speaker 1>Joseph in the face as he held them hostage at

756
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:30.800
<v Speaker 1>knife point. They described him as calm, deliberate as he

757
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:34.119
<v Speaker 1>tied up each and every person. They testified about the

758
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.280
<v Speaker 1>terrifying moment that he dragged Maria into the basement, about

759
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.719
<v Speaker 1>the screams, about the blood they saw, about the way

760
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:45.199
<v Speaker 1>he and his son had simply walked away. Afterwards, the

761
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.159
<v Speaker 1>jury found him guilty once again. Another thirty to eighty

762
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:53.960
<v Speaker 1>years was added to his sentence behind bars, Joseph's mental

763
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:57.599
<v Speaker 1>health continued to decline in prison. He was erratic and violent.

764
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:00.840
<v Speaker 1>He attacked another inmate, stabbing him toward twenty times with

765
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.199
<v Speaker 1>a pair of sewing scissors in nineteen seventy eight, another

766
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.519
<v Speaker 1>act he later said was commanded by unseen forces.

767
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:10.559
<v Speaker 2>No one is safe in that prison, really, hey with him?

768
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:13.920
<v Speaker 1>No, Well, he even did, like think of it this way,

769
00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:17.880
<v Speaker 1>because he had multiple suicide attempts that followed, including setting

770
00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.559
<v Speaker 1>his own cell on fire. So I mean, imagine being

771
00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:23.159
<v Speaker 1>in the cell next to him and he's setting his

772
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:26.360
<v Speaker 1>cell on fire and you're watching this like burn down. Yeah,

773
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:28.280
<v Speaker 1>it's like I'm going to burn alive too.

774
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:31.039
<v Speaker 2>No kidding. Well, and that so that inmate survived that

775
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming, Actually.

776
00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:35.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm not too sure. I'm pretty sure that inmate actually

777
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:37.639
<v Speaker 1>died because I believe he also like he cut his

778
00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:40.639
<v Speaker 1>throat in this action too, So I'm pretty sure he died. Yes,

779
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:43.719
<v Speaker 1>so I believe that would take the tally of murdered

780
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.159
<v Speaker 1>victims up to four if I'm not mistaken, Because there

781
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:49.559
<v Speaker 1>was the two children earlier, one being his own, then

782
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 1>there was Maria and this other inmate. Court appointed doctors

783
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:58.239
<v Speaker 1>argued over his condition. Some claimed he was faking illness

784
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:02.320
<v Speaker 1>to avoid punishment, others saw genuine and terrifying signs of

785
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:06.280
<v Speaker 1>profound mental breakdown. Joseph himself continued to request testing for

786
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Huntington's disease, convinced it might explain his behavior, but still

787
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:14.480
<v Speaker 1>no diagnosis came. Further trials unfolded for additional crimes, but

788
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:18.599
<v Speaker 1>by this time Joseph's court room appearance were basically meaningless.

789
00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:22.360
<v Speaker 1>His fate was sealed. He would die in prison, far

790
00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:24.760
<v Speaker 1>from the streets where his reign of terror played out,

791
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:27.519
<v Speaker 1>and it was more about closure for the victims than anything.

792
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Right died of heart failure at the age of fifty

793
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.559
<v Speaker 1>nine inside a Pennsylvania state prison. As for Micah Callinger,

794
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:39.679
<v Speaker 1>his son, the courts took a different approach. He was

795
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.880
<v Speaker 1>just thirteen when the crimes were committed. Multiple psychologists assessed

796
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.599
<v Speaker 1>him as a child under extreme coercion, possibly salvageable with treatment.

797
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 1>After serving his time in a juvenile facility, Micah was

798
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.599
<v Speaker 1>placed with foster parents relatives of his stepmother, who worked

799
00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.760
<v Speaker 1>to rehabilitate him. By nineteen seventy nine, he pled guilty

800
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:03.800
<v Speaker 1>to robbery charges in exchange for the dismissal of the

801
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:08.239
<v Speaker 1>murder charge related to Maria Fassinger's death. He was released

802
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:12.639
<v Speaker 1>on probation under careful supervision until his twenty first birthday

803
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighty two, and then after that, Michael vanished

804
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:21.719
<v Speaker 1>from public view. His records were sealed, his name disappeared

805
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:26.039
<v Speaker 1>from headlines, and to this day, no public records are

806
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.000
<v Speaker 1>to account for where he is today. Whether he rebuilt

807
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:32.719
<v Speaker 1>his life or descended further into darkness remains unknown.

808
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:35.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we can only hope that he's just living

809
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:39.280
<v Speaker 2>normal one hundred percent of life, you know, that's healthy.

810
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.920
<v Speaker 1>I hope he was rehabilitated and he got away from

811
00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:43.079
<v Speaker 1>what his father did to him.

812
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah.

813
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Now, at the heart of Joseph Callinger's story lies a

814
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 1>haunting question that has puzzled doctors, lawyers, true crime enthusiasts

815
00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:57.199
<v Speaker 1>for decades. What was truly wrong with Joseph Kllinger's mind?

816
00:50:57.599 --> 00:50:59.559
<v Speaker 1>Told you we'd go over this at the end. Here

817
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:04.159
<v Speaker 1>we are so Even before the murders, Joseph displayed behaviors

818
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 1>that were bizarre, disturbing, and disconnected from reality. The hallucinations

819
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.639
<v Speaker 1>he described, the voices from God, visions of supreme powers

820
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:17.119
<v Speaker 1>commanding him to kill. They weren't fleeting thoughts. They are immersive,

821
00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:21.239
<v Speaker 1>all consuming, and very persistent. He genuinely believed that he

822
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:24.239
<v Speaker 1>was on a divine mission tasks from or for saving

823
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:26.719
<v Speaker 1>the world and later destroying it, and he failed to

824
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:30.000
<v Speaker 1>live up to that imagined responsibility. These are real things

825
00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:33.280
<v Speaker 1>that he firmly believed. This is not made up for

826
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:37.800
<v Speaker 1>his defense. This is fact. He believed these. But was

827
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.760
<v Speaker 1>this madness the product of trauma, mental illness, physical brain damage,

828
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.760
<v Speaker 1>or some tangled combination of these. Forensic psychologists who evaluated

829
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Joseph over the years often pointed to early childhood trauma

830
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:56.440
<v Speaker 1>as the seed bed for his psychosis. His adoptive parents

831
00:51:56.440 --> 00:52:00.000
<v Speaker 1>were brutally abusive. They did things like burnt his fingertips,

832
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.880
<v Speaker 1>beat him with hammers, punished him for normal childhood behaviors

833
00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.920
<v Speaker 1>like exploring his body. Sure maybe it disturbed them a

834
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:10.320
<v Speaker 1>little bit, but it's not their responsibility to be disturbed

835
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.320
<v Speaker 1>by someone learning about themselves or their sexuality, and exploring

836
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:18.480
<v Speaker 1>that the deep psychological scars of those years clearly shaped

837
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:22.000
<v Speaker 1>the man that he would become. At that same time,

838
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:28.519
<v Speaker 1>signs of schizophrenia were impossible to ignore. His hallucinations, paranoia,

839
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:34.320
<v Speaker 1>and elaborate religious delusions fit classic psychiatric definitions of the disorder.

840
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:39.639
<v Speaker 1>Schizophrenia often manifests in late adolescents or early adulthood, right

841
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:44.840
<v Speaker 1>around the time Joseph's visions began, and it's hard to

842
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.239
<v Speaker 1>not correlate those totally. But then there were the physical symptoms.

843
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.639
<v Speaker 1>He also had muscle spasms, He was very jerky with

844
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:56.199
<v Speaker 1>his movements, very much so. In many times he had

845
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:00.960
<v Speaker 1>inappropriate laughter, and some doctors suspected neurological conditions might also

846
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:04.599
<v Speaker 1>be in play. It's worth noting that Joseph's early crimes

847
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:08.519
<v Speaker 1>before murders, showed some faint traces of humanity. There were

848
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:12.440
<v Speaker 1>multiple occasions where he stopped short of killing. He retreated

849
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:15.280
<v Speaker 1>from violence at the last second. He wavered, He showed doubt,

850
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:19.400
<v Speaker 1>But as the hallucinations deepened, so did the detachment from

851
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:23.920
<v Speaker 1>the reality around him. The command these hallucinations had over him,

852
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:28.519
<v Speaker 1>as he described, he left him feeling trapped, as though

853
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 1>his mind was no longer his own. His actions became

854
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:35.440
<v Speaker 1>increasingly erratic, brutal, and devoid of emotions. So was he

855
00:53:35.559 --> 00:53:40.079
<v Speaker 1>legally saying. Some courts say no, others weren't so sure.

856
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.480
<v Speaker 1>And the truth is it may be impossible to ever

857
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:48.239
<v Speaker 1>fully know. Mental illness doesn't exactly excuse his crimes, but

858
00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:50.960
<v Speaker 1>it does explain much about why his life spiraled so

859
00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:55.559
<v Speaker 1>horrifyingly out of control. And then there came the other puzzle,

860
00:53:56.039 --> 00:54:00.320
<v Speaker 1>his son, Michael. Unlike his father, Michael didn't appear to

861
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:04.719
<v Speaker 1>suffer from hallucinations or psychosis. Instead, he was raised inside

862
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:09.280
<v Speaker 1>the madness, exposed from childhood to Joseph's violence, control, and

863
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.079
<v Speaker 1>twisted worldview, in some ways very similar to how his

864
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:17.119
<v Speaker 1>father was even raised. Some psychologists view Michael as a

865
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:21.760
<v Speaker 1>classic case of traumatic bonding, a child so desperate for

866
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:24.800
<v Speaker 1>approval that he was willing to follow his father into

867
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:29.719
<v Speaker 1>unspeakable acts. Others warned that Michael showed signs of emerging

868
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:37.079
<v Speaker 1>psychopathy himself, cold, calculating, and eager for violence. Ultimately, Michael

869
00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:42.039
<v Speaker 1>was considered rehabilitated or rehabilitate a bull, though his current

870
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:46.800
<v Speaker 1>whereabouts dew still remain unknown. In the end, the arrest

871
00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:49.480
<v Speaker 1>of Joseph and Michael in January of nineteen seventy five

872
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.119
<v Speaker 1>brought an abrupt end to their violent spree, but the

873
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.559
<v Speaker 1>echoes of their crime stretched far beyond that moment in time.

874
00:54:56.440 --> 00:55:00.760
<v Speaker 1>For the families of their victims, the scars ran deep, permanent,

875
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:05.000
<v Speaker 1>and in many cases impossible to fully heal. The murder of

876
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:09.599
<v Speaker 1>twenty one year old Maria Fascing the only convicted homicide

877
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:13.440
<v Speaker 1>during their rampage, apart from Joseph's own son, I get well,

878
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I guess that's not convicted. That is confirmed because Joseph fully,

879
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:19.079
<v Speaker 1>flat out has admitted it in interviews, but Maria is

880
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:23.440
<v Speaker 1>the only convicted one. It left a profound wound on Pennsylvania.

881
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.920
<v Speaker 1>In the community. Maria was not just a victim of opportunity.

882
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:29.880
<v Speaker 1>She was a woman known for her kindness, her activism,

883
00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:33.760
<v Speaker 1>and her refusal to back down the face of, you know, adversity.

884
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:37.239
<v Speaker 1>It was that very courage, her refusal to comply with

885
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:41.599
<v Speaker 1>Joseph's demands, that cost her her life. She died on

886
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:44.599
<v Speaker 1>that cold basement floor of a stranger's house, well, not

887
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:47.760
<v Speaker 1>a stranger, a friend's house. Far from the life that

888
00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:51.679
<v Speaker 1>she could have lived, but still with her own morals

889
00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:56.320
<v Speaker 1>in person intact, her murder shook that small town leaven

890
00:55:56.360 --> 00:55:59.480
<v Speaker 1>behind grief stricken family members and friends who would carry

891
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:04.079
<v Speaker 1>the weight of her loss forever. The survivors, the women

892
00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:06.519
<v Speaker 1>who had been tied up, threatened, and assaulted in their

893
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:10.840
<v Speaker 1>own homes, carry visible scars. Though they escaped with their lives,

894
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 1>the terror they endured could not be undone. Imagine the

895
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:17.079
<v Speaker 1>horror of sitting in your living room, expecting a quiet

896
00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:20.639
<v Speaker 1>afternoon with friends, only to be held captive at knife

897
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:26.079
<v Speaker 1>point by a stranger who seems completely unhinged. The emotional

898
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:28.840
<v Speaker 1>trauma from such an experience doesn't just vanish. Many of

899
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:32.000
<v Speaker 1>these people were left deeply affected for years, if not

900
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:37.079
<v Speaker 1>for life. Some reportedly suffered from PTSD post traumatic stress disorder,

901
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.480
<v Speaker 1>chronic fear, and shattered feelings of their own safety and

902
00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.840
<v Speaker 1>their own homes. And then there were the children, the

903
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Callinger's kids, his own flesh and blood, his sons, his

904
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:51.159
<v Speaker 1>daughters who had been pawns, and his delusions. Sometimes victims

905
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:57.119
<v Speaker 1>sometimes witnesses the psychological damage on those kids, especially Michael's

906
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:03.159
<v Speaker 1>young Michael's younger siblings. It's hard to quantify. To grow

907
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.920
<v Speaker 1>up in a home like this, it meant living in

908
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:11.639
<v Speaker 1>constant fear, caught between love, loyalty, and honestly absolute horror.

909
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 1>You feel like you're probably living in a horror movie.

910
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Even decades later, the name of Joseph and Michael Collinger

911
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:22.760
<v Speaker 1>evoke unease in the city, in towns where they once prowled.

912
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Their story once national news faded into relative obscurity over

913
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:30.119
<v Speaker 1>the years, but for those directly touched by the violence,

914
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:33.920
<v Speaker 1>it never truly went away. While Joseph died in prison

915
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:37.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety six, taking many of his secrets with him,

916
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.199
<v Speaker 1>the ripples of what he did, what he and his

917
00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:43.199
<v Speaker 1>son did continue to spread through the lives that they

918
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:47.960
<v Speaker 1>touched and the histories that they've altered. The story of

919
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:49.960
<v Speaker 1>the Calling Yers is one of the darkest and most

920
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:53.440
<v Speaker 1>disturbing in American true crime history. It's a case that

921
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.320
<v Speaker 1>leaves us grappling not only with the depths of human depravity,

922
00:57:56.360 --> 00:58:01.320
<v Speaker 1>but also with uncomfortable questions about mental illness, responsibility, and

923
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:06.000
<v Speaker 1>the limits of rehabilitation. So much though, that in this

924
00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:09.960
<v Speaker 1>episode today, I've only begun to scratch the surface of

925
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.960
<v Speaker 1>this conversation. Though Joseph calling Her died of heart failure

926
00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:17.079
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety six, having spent over two decades behind bars.

927
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:21.079
<v Speaker 1>He remained a deeply disturbed man until the very end,

928
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:27.880
<v Speaker 1>reportedly continuing to experience these hallucinations, paranoiase, and suicidal urges

929
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:31.559
<v Speaker 1>till the very end. To this day, the question remains

930
00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:36.079
<v Speaker 1>was Joseph calling Her evil, insane or a tragic collision

931
00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:41.679
<v Speaker 1>of both. The case continues to be study in criminal psychology, psychiatry,

932
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:45.800
<v Speaker 1>and criminology circles. It's a haunting example of how untreated

933
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:50.880
<v Speaker 1>mental illness, childhood trauma, and distorted religious delusions can create

934
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:55.400
<v Speaker 1>a perfect storm of violence in the end. What makes

935
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:58.079
<v Speaker 1>this case linger is not just the brutality of the acts,

936
00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:02.159
<v Speaker 1>but the profound sadness running through every single chapter of

937
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:07.119
<v Speaker 1>the story. It's about damaged people damaging other people. It's

938
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:10.440
<v Speaker 1>about the terror that unfolded in quiet neighborhoods, and it's

939
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:13.440
<v Speaker 1>about the lives lost, not just those who died, but

940
00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:17.480
<v Speaker 1>those who live with the aftermath. The majority of the

941
00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:20.960
<v Speaker 1>world may forget the name Callinger eventually, but for those

942
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:24.679
<v Speaker 1>who study the darkest corners of human behavior, this case

943
00:59:24.760 --> 00:59:32.119
<v Speaker 1>remains absolutely unforgettable. And that's a story of Joseph Kellinger

944
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:34.119
<v Speaker 1>aka the.

945
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:39.079
<v Speaker 2>Shoemaker, damaged people, damaging other people.

946
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

947
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Shit, now that just like I feel like, just nails

948
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:45.760
<v Speaker 2>it on the head right there.

949
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:51.159
<v Speaker 1>Right now. There is some documentaries and interviews with Joseph,

950
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:53.800
<v Speaker 1>and there's one it's gone viral on like TikTok and

951
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:55.719
<v Speaker 1>such like that. And I really want to play this

952
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.400
<v Speaker 1>for you because it really gives you a perspective of

953
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:02.840
<v Speaker 1>how how much is going on in this guy's head.

954
01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:08.480
<v Speaker 1>He openly, openly talks about these things in an interview,

955
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:10.280
<v Speaker 1>and he's so cold about it.

956
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:12.280
<v Speaker 2>He's not hiding anything.

957
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:15.639
<v Speaker 1>He's not hiding anything. Even listen to how quickly he

958
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:18.199
<v Speaker 1>answers some of these questions. I'm going to play this clip.

959
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:22.199
<v Speaker 1>He even cuts off the interviewer at one point confirming

960
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:25.159
<v Speaker 1>that yes he did that and yes he will do

961
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:28.480
<v Speaker 1>it again. That sort of thing. So confident, so cold,

962
01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and even listening to the audio, you only get a

963
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:34.800
<v Speaker 1>fraction Like, looking at this guy when he's being interviewed,

964
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:37.960
<v Speaker 1>he looks like a hungry dog looking at a meal.

965
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:40.440
<v Speaker 1>That's what he looks like when he's looking at this

966
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:41.400
<v Speaker 1>guy interviewing him.

967
01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh, well, yeah, way to just make a scringe a

968
01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:45.119
<v Speaker 2>little there.

969
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Right, So here, I'm going to play the audio for you.

970
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:47.360
<v Speaker 4>Now.

971
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:51.880
<v Speaker 3>He murdered your own son, Yes, I did. Why did

972
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:52.239
<v Speaker 3>you do that?

973
01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:56.039
<v Speaker 4>He was to sacrifice. I wish to murder it three

974
01:00:56.079 --> 01:01:01.519
<v Speaker 4>million people the planet Earth, and he was sacrificed to

975
01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:03.320
<v Speaker 4>see if I could murder the woman if I own

976
01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:06.800
<v Speaker 4>at the end of murdering all the people on Earth,

977
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:09.800
<v Speaker 4>I was going to murder my own family and then

978
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:11.719
<v Speaker 4>take my own life and become God.

979
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:13.639
<v Speaker 3>What do you think of the death penalty.

980
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:15.280
<v Speaker 4>I'm opposed to it.

981
01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:17.559
<v Speaker 3>The state has no right to take your life, but

982
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:18.679
<v Speaker 3>you can murder other people.

983
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:20.679
<v Speaker 4>I don't think anyone has the right to take the

984
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:25.119
<v Speaker 4>life except you. When I'm under hallucination, I do.

985
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:29.199
<v Speaker 3>These voices from God, these hallucinations. Do you still experience them?

986
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:29.559
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

987
01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:35.159
<v Speaker 3>I do often often. Do you ever feel violent?

988
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:38.679
<v Speaker 4>Yes? I do. What do you feel like doing killing people?

989
01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:40.400
<v Speaker 3>Do you still feel like killing people?

990
01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:40.719
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

991
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.639
<v Speaker 3>Describe the feeling that you get when you feel like kill. Well.

992
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:48.280
<v Speaker 4>Last March eleventh, I was hallucinating and I took a

993
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:50.239
<v Speaker 4>razor blade and I cut a man's through.

994
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:54.559
<v Speaker 3>Here in the hospital, you're in the hospital. Do you

995
01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:59.840
<v Speaker 3>think it murdered me Joe. Yes, that's gruesome, Joe, that's horrible.

996
01:02:00.519 --> 01:02:01.079
<v Speaker 4>Yes it is.

997
01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:03.039
<v Speaker 3>And you don't blame me if I say, I hope

998
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:04.320
<v Speaker 3>you never get out of this place.

999
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:05.960
<v Speaker 4>I hope I never do either.

1000
01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:11.400
<v Speaker 2>He's very quick, he has like on his feet to

1001
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.679
<v Speaker 2>answer anything. There's no thought there, just like it's just fact.

1002
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:17.599
<v Speaker 1>This as a matter of fact. I did that, I

1003
01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:20.039
<v Speaker 1>want to do it again. I will do it again. Boom.

1004
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:20.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1005
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's simple there, there's no hiding it with him.

1006
01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:29.599
<v Speaker 1>It's so mad fact, black and white.

1007
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:33.320
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, I don't want to say lucky, but

1008
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:37.199
<v Speaker 2>I feel like society, you know, it's amazing that he

1009
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:39.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't end up killing more people. I guess right.

1010
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, well in that clip he says he was

1011
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:44.199
<v Speaker 1>to kill three million people.

1012
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, So like, okay, I just have to say

1013
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:54.639
<v Speaker 2>one more thing. Would he not have been on medication,

1014
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:57.000
<v Speaker 2>you know at the time of that interview.

1015
01:02:57.039 --> 01:03:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Probably potentially, I'm sure he was on some sort of medication.

1016
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.639
<v Speaker 2>But then he's still having these hallucinations and stuff.

1017
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:06.519
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, he was having those hallucinations often right up

1018
01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:07.480
<v Speaker 1>to the very end.

1019
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:11.199
<v Speaker 2>Huh. Well, it just kind of that kind of makes

1020
01:03:11.239 --> 01:03:13.239
<v Speaker 2>you think a little bit, you know, like because as

1021
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:16.119
<v Speaker 2>far as I'm aware, like medication is supposed to help

1022
01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:19.840
<v Speaker 2>help with that a little bit, right, So they were

1023
01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:21.840
<v Speaker 2>also unsure exactly what he had and he could have

1024
01:03:21.880 --> 01:03:22.840
<v Speaker 2>had multiple things.

1025
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Now, if he was having hallucinations and if he was

1026
01:03:26.880 --> 01:03:31.000
<v Speaker 1>on medication, I'm sure the medication was helping with those hallucinations,

1027
01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:33.480
<v Speaker 1>but to what degree it was helping. I mean, I

1028
01:03:33.519 --> 01:03:36.320
<v Speaker 1>have no idea. That's something that only is medical records

1029
01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:38.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure would actually show and I don't think those

1030
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:38.880
<v Speaker 1>are public.

1031
01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:43.480
<v Speaker 2>No, Well, he's just I don't know that interview. It's

1032
01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:44.239
<v Speaker 2>it scares me.

1033
01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:47.519
<v Speaker 1>He is one of the scariest individuals.

1034
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, ever, like a very scary man.

1035
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:54.159
<v Speaker 1>We've covered some some terrifying people, and don't get me wrong,

1036
01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:56.480
<v Speaker 1>there's some stories that we've covered where we've had some

1037
01:03:56.920 --> 01:03:59.239
<v Speaker 1>very terrifying people up there with him too, But he

1038
01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:01.199
<v Speaker 1>is He's near the top for sure.

1039
01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Well.

1040
01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then just also the potential I guess too

1041
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:11.559
<v Speaker 2>that he that his crimes could have brought. Yeah, I

1042
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:14.239
<v Speaker 2>mean what he did was already horrific, but like you know,

1043
01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:17.199
<v Speaker 2>like you just said, he had plans and for way more.

1044
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, imagine in that house when he killed Maria, Imagine

1045
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:25.360
<v Speaker 1>someone didn't escape. Imagine this on Michael was upstairs ensuring

1046
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.519
<v Speaker 1>no one was getting out. That would have been an

1047
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:30.159
<v Speaker 1>entire house massacre.

1048
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:31.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1049
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Now, I'm sure they probably would have been caught

1050
01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:36.360
<v Speaker 1>after that, because I bet you anything, there would have

1051
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.440
<v Speaker 1>been some fingerprints and stuff like that. They weren't too

1052
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:41.719
<v Speaker 1>careful with the crime scene. But even still, that was

1053
01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:44.599
<v Speaker 1>a house of what eight people, So there would have

1054
01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:49.440
<v Speaker 1>been eight people dead and gone in that house if

1055
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:51.679
<v Speaker 1>that person didn't escape.

1056
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:53.880
<v Speaker 2>And I just have to say, too, we've talked so

1057
01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:57.920
<v Speaker 2>much about Michael, right, yeah, and his rehabilitation, but like

1058
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:01.679
<v Speaker 2>his other kids too, Oh, you have so much just

1059
01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:04.199
<v Speaker 2>like even knowing that that's her father and what he

1060
01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:06.760
<v Speaker 2>did and still the games that he played on them

1061
01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:08.280
<v Speaker 2>and stuff you know, growing up.

1062
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:09.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, the things that, like you say, the games he

1063
01:05:09.679 --> 01:05:12.039
<v Speaker 1>played on them, the rituals, the things he put them through.

1064
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.199
<v Speaker 1>Imagine being one of those child for a minute. It

1065
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:17.320
<v Speaker 1>doesn't matter which one, just think in the shoes of

1066
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:21.320
<v Speaker 1>knowing that your father has these sort of hallucinations and

1067
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:23.960
<v Speaker 1>as a result, you went through those things. And then

1068
01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:27.280
<v Speaker 1>he also convinced one of your siblings to murder with him,

1069
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:29.559
<v Speaker 1>and he killed one of your other siblings.

1070
01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:30.360
<v Speaker 4>Holy.

1071
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:33.039
<v Speaker 1>And then the manipulation you know he had on your

1072
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:37.920
<v Speaker 1>mother to boot and then the other rituals you know

1073
01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:40.039
<v Speaker 1>that he did on your other siblings.

1074
01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you just have to go on live in

1075
01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:46.480
<v Speaker 2>day to day with all that, yeah, in your brain.

1076
01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:49.360
<v Speaker 1>So that's a lot to take on, like you're saying,

1077
01:05:49.400 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 1>to begin with, yeah, now imagine yeah, just imagine that,

1078
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:57.000
<v Speaker 1>Like I can't imagine that. It's so fucked up it is.

1079
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:03.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah there, I mean, yeah, I mean his upbringing was

1080
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:07.599
<v Speaker 2>so terrible too, right, So how I said earlier that

1081
01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:09.679
<v Speaker 2>I was like, was he born with this? But I

1082
01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:13.039
<v Speaker 2>don't know, Well is this kind of maybe some degree,

1083
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:14.639
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, this was mostly created.

1084
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:18.079
<v Speaker 1>I feel like, in many ways, I feel very bad

1085
01:06:18.119 --> 01:06:22.559
<v Speaker 1>for Joseph Kallinger. I feel horrible for the guy because

1086
01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:25.519
<v Speaker 1>he's not hiding who he is. He's saying, it's a

1087
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:27.400
<v Speaker 1>matter of fact, I want to kill you right now.

1088
01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:29.000
<v Speaker 1>He said this in the interview, Yes I would kill

1089
01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:30.760
<v Speaker 1>you to the interviewer. Guy, And he's like, I hope

1090
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:32.559
<v Speaker 1>I never get let out of here. Oh yeah, he

1091
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:36.039
<v Speaker 1>knows the monster he is and he doesn't. He's dangerous

1092
01:06:36.199 --> 01:06:38.880
<v Speaker 1>and he doesn't want to be. He just knows that

1093
01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:43.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm fucked m h. And I will kill people. I

1094
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:46.760
<v Speaker 1>will hurt people, and that's the matter of fact. And

1095
01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:49.480
<v Speaker 1>don't let me go because it will happen. Don't be wrong.

1096
01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:54.199
<v Speaker 1>He should be locked up. He's a fucking monster. But

1097
01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:56.960
<v Speaker 1>there's many times where it's like you feel bad for

1098
01:06:57.039 --> 01:06:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the monster, you.

1099
01:06:57.719 --> 01:06:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Know a little bit well, and then yeah, just how

1100
01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the monster was created too, right, Yeah, like you said,

1101
01:07:03.039 --> 01:07:07.280
<v Speaker 2>he's gone through a lot himself. So oh my gosh, yeah,

1102
01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:10.119
<v Speaker 2>this one, this is a doozy.

1103
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:12.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a lot of psychological stuff behind this one.

1104
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Too, no kidding. I can only imagine, like you said,

1105
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:17.119
<v Speaker 2>the studies that go on with this one.

1106
01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:18.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1107
01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:23.039
<v Speaker 1>So anyways, hopefully you guys got through this one. It

1108
01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:24.960
<v Speaker 1>was a heavy one. It was a big one. If

1109
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:27.880
<v Speaker 1>you have heard of the story before, I'm sure this

1110
01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:29.639
<v Speaker 1>is nothing new to you and you've already thought of

1111
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:31.400
<v Speaker 1>much of this. But if you haven't before, and you

1112
01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:33.280
<v Speaker 1>got some new thoughts. If you have heard it, you've

1113
01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:34.840
<v Speaker 1>got some thoughts. If you haven't heard it, let us

1114
01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:37.320
<v Speaker 1>know your thoughts. Shoot us a message and email whatever.

1115
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Join us in the conversations on Patreon because oftentimes that

1116
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:42.800
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about cases after the fact in the chat

1117
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:45.239
<v Speaker 1>and overr on our discord as well. So join us there.

1118
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:47.239
<v Speaker 1>We got links down below you can contact us, join

1119
01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:50.239
<v Speaker 1>us in these in these community areas. And even still,

1120
01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:52.079
<v Speaker 1>we appreciate you being here. If you're not going to

1121
01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:54.679
<v Speaker 1>go check those out, because you guys make our show

1122
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:56.480
<v Speaker 1>what it is. We couldn't be here without you listening

1123
01:07:56.599 --> 01:07:58.000
<v Speaker 1>right now, So thank you very much.

1124
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you. And until next time, I think you

1125
01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:03.199
<v Speaker 2>need to say it. This time, I'm always saying it. Well,

1126
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:04.320
<v Speaker 2>until next time.

1127
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:07.159
<v Speaker 1>You never do the thing, you don't give me the opportunity,

1128
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:10.280
<v Speaker 1>We'll take the opportunity until next time you no, no,

1129
01:08:10.280 --> 01:08:12.039
<v Speaker 1>we gotta we gotta plan this off better. Okay, I'm

1130
01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:14.639
<v Speaker 1>gonna I'm gonna do the little description you thinging again, okay,

1131
01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:17.840
<v Speaker 1>and then you you casually like pass it over to

1132
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:19.920
<v Speaker 1>me for me to end it. Okay, okay, okay, So

1133
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:22.680
<v Speaker 1>check out the description we got contact stuff. It's all awesome.

1134
01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Give us a review. We're an indie podcast, and we

1135
01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:26.279
<v Speaker 1>appreciate you. Now you're turned go ahead.

1136
01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:29.039
<v Speaker 2>We do really appreciate it. We really do we really do,

1137
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:32.239
<v Speaker 2>so until Friday, stay Wicked
