1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Imagine a government operation, a really specialized one, and the 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,519 entire job description, you know, the mission statement they give 3 00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:11,000 the operatives. It's not about stealing secrets. 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,519 Speaker 2: Right, not about analysis or recruiting. 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,879 Speaker 1: Assets exactly, none of that. Instead the job and this 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,679 is coming from a former CIA officer, it boils down 7 00:00:20,719 --> 00:00:24,160 to two just incredibly blunt verbs to killer kidnets to 8 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,160 killer kidnap. That's it. That's the mandate we're pulling apart today. 9 00:00:27,239 --> 00:00:29,760 It's really the story of a moment the CIA changed 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,399 fundamentally from a classic intelligence service to well, something much 11 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:35,079 more kinetic. 12 00:00:35,359 --> 00:00:38,759 Speaker 2: Welcome to thrilling threads. And yeah, the source material we 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,759 have for this is it's incredibly focused. It comes from 14 00:00:41,799 --> 00:00:45,640 a really candid conversation with a former CIA officer, John Kerryak. 15 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: He was on the Dolt Official podcast that's right, And. 16 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: Our mission today is to use his first hand account 17 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,000 to peel back the layers on these these incredibly secretive 18 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,679 paramilitary and security units inside the agency, the ones that 19 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:01,079 operate way outside what you'd can traditional spine. 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: And they raised some, i mean some profound questions legally 21 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:08,719 and ethically about how we fight wars. Now, definitely we're 22 00:01:08,719 --> 00:01:12,480 focusing on the insights Kuriaku brings out in that YouTube video, 23 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:15,840 the title itself is a hook. The one CIA unit 24 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:21,000 no one talks about. It just screams classification, layers of secrecy. 25 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: And we're going to get into those layers. This is 26 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,400 you know, this is really for you if you've ever 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,879 been curious about that huge shift that happened inside the 28 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,560 CIA right after nine eleven. We need to understand how 29 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,799 military special forces, you know, Seals Delta guys, how they 30 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:38,879 were brought into a civilian intelligence agency, How completely new 31 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,439 lethal units were created seemingly overnight. 32 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: And the really critical part that moral tightrope, the tension 33 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,640 between national security and well, the rule of law, the constitution. 34 00:01:49,879 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: Exactly. 35 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,359 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's try to unpack this. I mean, what 36 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:55,120 jumps out right away from me, even before the missions themselves, 37 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:57,239 is just the sheer number of these groups. 38 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: The alphabet soup. 39 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,439 Speaker 1: It's an alphabet soup, exactly. There's this deliberate secrecy, this 40 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:05,560 confusion around them. We've got the Special Activities Division, Special 41 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,680 Activities Group, Ground Branch, the Global Response Staff GRS, and. 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,479 Speaker 2: That alphabet soup. It's not just a bunch of random names. 43 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:17,240 It's actually it's like a timeline at tracks the evolution 44 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,159 of how the agency thought about direct action and even 45 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:22,560 just protecting its own people. 46 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,719 Speaker 1: So it's not all the same thing, not at all. 47 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:27,879 Speaker 2: I mean, Historically, before nine to eleven, the main game 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 in town for covert action, for the really synthetive stuff 49 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,319 was a Special Activities Division right SAD right, and they 50 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:38,039 were housed within the Director of Operations the DOO. Their 51 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,879 work was, as these source says in the cover of Darkness, 52 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,560 very traditional, very clandestine. 53 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:45,599 Speaker 1: But nine to eleven just shatters that old model, doesn't 54 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,000 it the pressure, the immediate need to hunt people down. 55 00:02:48,039 --> 00:02:51,439 It just it creates this explosion of growth in one 56 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,879 particular place, the. 57 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: Counter Terrorism Center the CTC. 58 00:02:55,479 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: Right, and as we see in Kuriaker's account, the CTC 59 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,840 needed its own muscle, it needed its own way to 60 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:03,479 take direct action, and that's where the friction starts. 61 00:03:03,719 --> 00:03:08,199 Speaker 2: It's a classic bureaucratic turf war, but with life and 62 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,319 death stakes. The CTC becomes the new center of gravity 63 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,919 for the entire agency, and they want their own dedicated operators. 64 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,199 They don't want to have to ask the DOO for permission, 65 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:19,080 and that leads. 66 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,439 Speaker 1: To creating these new units, often just out of sheer necessity, 67 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,319 pulling guys over from the military on a temporary basis. 68 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: At first, exactly, but it was also a cultural shift. 69 00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:32,159 The CTC was where the action was and they wanted 70 00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:33,439 control over that action. 71 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: And the story Kiriaker tells about how he even found 72 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:40,439 out about the Global Response Staff the GRS, it just 73 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,520 feels so telling. 74 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: It's incredible. 75 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't some official briefing or a memo. It was 76 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:49,280 almost accidental, but it signals this huge change inside the agency. 77 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, the detail is just fascinating because it shows how 78 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,000 quickly these things were being stood up, sometimes completely out 79 00:03:55,039 --> 00:03:57,199 of view of even veteran case officers like him. 80 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: So how did he find out? 81 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: He says he was dating a woman and her soon 82 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:03,319 to be ex husband was a GRS officer. She just 83 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:04,960 casually mentions the acronym. 84 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,159 Speaker 1: He had no idea what it was. 85 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: None. He had to ask her what's GRS, And when 86 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,599 she explained what they did, his reaction was just, oh shit, 87 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:13,479 they've made it official. 88 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,439 Speaker 1: They've made it official. That's the key phrase right there. 89 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,800 It is It implies that for years, protecting officers in 90 00:04:19,879 --> 00:04:25,040 dangerous places was probably handled by AD hoc teams, temporary details, 91 00:04:25,079 --> 00:04:26,959 maybe marines from the embassy. 92 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: Unofficial arrangements, yeah, yeah, gray areas. But the creation of GRS, 93 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:35,920 the Global Response Staff, that formalizes it. It creates a 94 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,160 dedicated internal professional fighting force whose only job is to 95 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:41,600 protect CIA personnel. 96 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: So what was that specific need? Why did they have 97 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:45,199 to make it official? 98 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,199 Speaker 2: Well, the GRS was stood up specifically for that reason, 99 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,920 dedicated security for case officers, for station chiefs, for anyone 100 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:55,199 operating in really high thread areas. And you have to 101 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,399 remember the context of those early war zones. 102 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: And the source gives a perfect example of why this 103 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:02,279 was so critical. He talks about the Green Zone in Baghdad, 104 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,319 which was supposed to be this impenetrable fortress, right the 105 00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:07,279 safest place in a rock, but he says it was 106 00:05:07,319 --> 00:05:10,079 easily infiltrated. Just moving from point A to point B 107 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,040 inside the zone. He says, you were taking your life 108 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,279 into your hands every time you got into a car. 109 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,399 Speaker 2: That's a staggering level of threat. I mean, if you're 110 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:21,680 not even safe inside the supposed safe zone, you can't 111 00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:25,040 do your job, you can't read sources, you can't gather intelligence. 112 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,759 Speaker 1: So GRS becomes absolutely essential. In Baghdad, in Kabul, anywhere 113 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:30,160 like that. 114 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,879 Speaker 2: And if you think about their role, it's pure defense. 115 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,160 It's sacrificial. The Source's right to emphasize just how brave 116 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:39,399 these individuals have. 117 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: To be because their job isn't too attack, it's too shield. 118 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:46,439 He describes their function as literally to throw your body 119 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,199 in front of the other guy so the other guy 120 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,959 doesn't get killed and can complete the meeting. 121 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,079 Speaker 2: I mean, just think about that. That's the entire job description. 122 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:55,240 Your purpose is to be the shield. 123 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: It's the complete opposite of a traditional spy mission. It's 124 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,600 all physical, all tactical, all close quarters protection under the 125 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:04,040 worst possible conditions. 126 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: And he calls it a thankless job, but it's completely 127 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,800 non negotiable. If the agency wants to operate in these places, 128 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,560 it requires this, this incredible commitment and a willingness to 129 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,319 face almost certain danger. 130 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:19,879 Speaker 1: Which leads us to the people who actually fill these roles. 131 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,399 Because whether it's GRS or Ground Branch or these other 132 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,319 kinetic units, they are not your traditional CIA recruit. 133 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: No, not the Ivy League history major who speaks four languages. 134 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: Not at all. This is what changes the culture of 135 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,439 the agency. These people, as the Source says, come from long, 136 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:41,279 successful careers in special forces of some sort. 137 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: He lists them out, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Delta Force, 138 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:46,920 the absolute elite of the US. 139 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: Military, and their training is not about intelligence gathering. It's 140 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,279 about mission execution, direct action. 141 00:06:52,519 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: And the way they were brought into the CIA, it 142 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,800 wasn't some neat, orderly process. It really reflects the chaos 143 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,720 of that time, right after nine to eleven. 144 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: How did it work initially? 145 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,879 Speaker 2: At first? In those first frantic weeks, these operators were 146 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:07,639 often secunded to the CIA, basically loaned out. 147 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,319 Speaker 1: And for our listeners, let's just clarify that term secunded. 148 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: Sure, it means they were temporarily detailed or assigned from 149 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,160 the Department Offense to the CIA. So they were still 150 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:21,040 technically military, drawing military pay, but their orders and their 151 00:07:21,079 --> 00:07:22,560 mission came from the CIA. 152 00:07:22,759 --> 00:07:24,199 Speaker 1: It's a bureaucratic workaround. 153 00:07:24,279 --> 00:07:26,639 Speaker 2: It's a fast way to get guys with guns where 154 00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:29,040 you need them without going through a long hiring process, 155 00:07:29,279 --> 00:07:30,639 a quick strike capability. 156 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: But that temporary solution couldn't last forever. 157 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: No, as the Global War on Terror became the new normal, 158 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,839 the agency realized it needed this capability permanently in house. 159 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: So Kiriaku describes two paths for these special operators to 160 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,360 join the CIA long term. 161 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: Right. The first path was that many of them just 162 00:07:51,079 --> 00:07:54,720 became official CIA employees. They'd trade their military uniform for 163 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,800 an agency ID in a different set of rules. They'd 164 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,000 go into units like Ground Branch or the ctc's action groups. 165 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:02,240 And the second past the second path, which he notes 166 00:08:02,319 --> 00:08:04,399 was seen as a much more efficient way of bringing 167 00:08:04,439 --> 00:08:07,040 them on board, was to hire them as contractors. 168 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,839 Speaker 1: So they would retire from the military, often after a 169 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:13,439 full twenty year career in Delta or Seal Team six. 170 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:15,519 Speaker 2: And the very next day they'd come back to do 171 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,519 pretty much the same job, but for a private company 172 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,360 that's contracted to the CIA. 173 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,959 Speaker 1: And that detail using contractors for what is basically warfare 174 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,680 that that opens up a whole other can of legal 175 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,279 worms that we definitely need to get into. 176 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: It does, but whether they were an employee or a contractor, 177 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,440 their core skill set was the same direct lethal action. 178 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: And this is where the agency's focus completely solidifies. It's 179 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:42,679 moved from spying to. 180 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: Paramilitary operations, which brings us right back to that mission statement. 181 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:50,200 The part of the source material that's just so shocking 182 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,919 because it has no euphemism, there's no bureaucratic language to 183 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:53,440 soften it. 184 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: This is really the core of our whole discussion today. 185 00:08:55,799 --> 00:08:59,600 Kiriaku gives that blunt, unfiltered definition of the job for 186 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,039 the Special Units. 187 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,519 Speaker 2: The job is to kill or kidnap and render anybody 188 00:09:04,519 --> 00:09:06,360 who might be a threat to the United States to 189 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:08,360 an American citizen or to an American installation. 190 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: Kill, kidnap and render. 191 00:09:10,919 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: Now. To be fair, the source does acknowledge the official 192 00:09:13,799 --> 00:09:16,159 high level targets. He talks about the top of the 193 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,399 food chain, going after people who are genuine existential threats, people. 194 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Like Osama bin Laden. I'm in al Zawahiri right, who he. 195 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: Refers to as the Imanis of the world. It's an 196 00:09:25,519 --> 00:09:29,799 interesting term. Animam is a spiritual leader in Islam, so 197 00:09:29,919 --> 00:09:33,960 he's likely using Imani's as shorthand for the ideological heads 198 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:35,200 of al Qaeda, and. 199 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: For those guys, the goal was simple, we want them dead. 200 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,200 That's the clean strategic objective. But the source material it 201 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,519 just immediately pivots from that to the dark side, the 202 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:49,320 ugly reality of what happens when you have these high 203 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,799 stakes operations running so fast with so little oversight. 204 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,039 Speaker 2: The reality that mistakes get made, and. 205 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: These aren't small mistakes. The human cost is just catastrophe. 206 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,159 Speaker 2: The specifics are horrifying, and they really expose the systemic 207 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,840 risk of the whole rendition program. And we should be 208 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,440 very clear what rendition means. 209 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:08,879 Speaker 1: Go ahead. 210 00:10:08,919 --> 00:10:10,759 Speaker 2: It means people are snatched off the street in one 211 00:10:10,799 --> 00:10:15,120 country and then they're secretly flown rendered to third countries. 212 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,279 Speaker 1: And the reason for doing that, for moving them to 213 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:18,919 a third country is just chilling. 214 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: It's because those third countries don't have the same legal 215 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:25,840 rules as the United States. They operate outside the US Constitution, 216 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:29,919 outside international law. And Kirie kusays the result is the 217 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:33,639 victims are then tortured in those third countries. 218 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: For a long long time. 219 00:10:34,799 --> 00:10:37,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you have to just absorb the scale of 220 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,759 this failure. He says, this happened repeatedly where the intelligence 221 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:45,320 service of that host country, the ones doing the torturing 222 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,759 for the CIA, eventually come back and admit, look, this 223 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:49,480 is the wrong. 224 00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:52,759 Speaker 1: Guy, but only after the person has been tortured mercilessly 225 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,039 for the last nine months. 226 00:10:53,919 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 2: Nine months, a merciless torture for a case of mistaken identity. 227 00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:59,200 It's just devastating. 228 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,919 Speaker 1: And this is where that ethical problem becomes a real, 229 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:04,679 profound conflict inside the US government. 230 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, this part of the source material really demands we 231 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:11,120 stop and think about the legal tyrope. Kirie Kup frames 232 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:14,559 it perfectly with two opposing viewpoints that really define the 233 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,080 agency's culture. After nine to. 234 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: Eleven, Okay, what are the two sides. 235 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: On one side, you have Jose Rodriguez. He was the 236 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:26,159 former Deputy director for Operations, famous for ordering the destruction 237 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,480 of the CIA's torture tapes, and Rodriguez is quoted as saying, 238 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,360 you need someone willing to take these guff decisions. 239 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,279 Speaker 1: So that's the operational perspective. It's a kind of utilitarian argument, right, 240 00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:40,600 that these actions, even if they're legally gray or morally awful, 241 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,440 are necessary to protect the nation. The threat is so 242 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,360 big you have to bend the rules. 243 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: That's the argument. The ends justify the means. But Kuriaku, 244 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,720 who represents a more traditional legalistic view, maybe the conscience 245 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,200 of the agency, he pushes back hard against that. 246 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: What's his counter argument as. 247 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,039 Speaker 2: Very clearly that as American government officials, their primary duty 248 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,960 is to live by the rule of law and by 249 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,320 the Constitution period. 250 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: So the implication is that this kill or kidnap mission 251 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,879 as it was being executed was fundamentally unconstitutional. 252 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 2: That's exactly what he says. His words are just going 253 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,440 out there wantonly murdering people and kidnapping people and tort 254 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,320 from people. That's not upholding the constitution. 255 00:12:21,879 --> 00:12:25,399 Speaker 1: And that's the core conflict, this deep tension between the 256 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,120 perceived need for immediate brutal action and the promise to 257 00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:33,440 uphold the nation's own laws. You're trading one for the other. 258 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:36,919 Speaker 2: And you see that tension in the operations themselves. He 259 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,360 talks about Ground Branch in the Special Activities Division. When 260 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,320 he thinks of them, he pictures those retired Special Forces. 261 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:47,919 Speaker 1: Guys, the ex Delta ex Seal Team six operators right. 262 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: Who are essentially hired to keep doing the exact same 263 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,080 missions they did in the military, but now under a 264 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:53,960 civilian banner. 265 00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: And the standard mission for a unit like Ground Branch, 266 00:12:56,799 --> 00:12:59,960 according to the source, is very kinetic, very direct. 267 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: It's the classic raid. He says, put a charge on 268 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,080 a door, blow it open, shoot people in the face, 269 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:04,440 and leave. 270 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's military force. There's no other way 271 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,080 to describe it as just being directed by a civilian agency. 272 00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:12,919 Speaker 2: But then he immediately contrasts that with the other kinds 273 00:13:12,919 --> 00:13:16,440 of things these units do, the more specialized, truly covert 274 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:19,559 stuff like what he brings up the attempted assassination of 275 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,399 Cold Meshal in Jordan back in ninety seven, where operatives 276 00:13:23,399 --> 00:13:24,320 spray him with poison. 277 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: So it's not just raids, it's everything from kicking down 278 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:31,279 doors to well chemical warfare. It shows the incredible range 279 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:32,559 of their mission. 280 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: Set, an incredible and frankly terrifying range, and this new focus, 281 00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:41,720 this new capability. It wasn't a slow change. Kyrieku was 282 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:44,919 adamant about this. It was a revolution that happened basically 283 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:45,759 in a single day. 284 00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the most powerful claims in the 285 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,000 whole interview. He says he saw the agency turn into 286 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,120 a paramilitary organization the day after nine to eleven, not. 287 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: A slow policy shift, not a series of debates. It 288 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,159 was a crisis response that just became permanent. 289 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:03,639 Speaker 1: And he describes the scene, the actual moment where this 290 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:06,759 cultural turning point happens. It's just an hour after the 291 00:14:06,799 --> 00:14:07,480 attacks began. 292 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:09,639 Speaker 2: Koepher Black, who is the head of the CTC at 293 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:12,559 the time, stands on a chair right outside his office, 294 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,159 looking out over this massive bullpen and the atmosphere. 295 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: He describes, you can just feel the gravity. The whole place, 296 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,360 hundreds of analysts and officers was dead, silent. 297 00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: They'd all just watched the towers fall. They knew their world, 298 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,360 their jobs, everything had just changed forever. 299 00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:29,799 Speaker 1: And the message Koepher Black gives them it's not a 300 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,799 strategy meeting, it's a call to arms, a declaration of war. 301 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,039 Speaker 2: He tells him. Today we're at war and we're all 302 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,559 going to have to fight. Not all of us are 303 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,159 going to come home. So if you want to walk out, 304 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,399 now walk out, and no one will think less of you. 305 00:14:41,519 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: That is an incredible thing to say to your stat It's. 306 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:48,799 Speaker 2: A clear choice, stay and fight or go. And the result, Kyriak, 307 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:53,240 who says, was dramatic. Only one woman walked out, just one, 308 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,480 and she faced immediate consequences for it. Her bosses basically 309 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,960 said they'd lost confidence in her and she was removed. 310 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,480 But the point is everyone else stayed, everyone volunteered, and 311 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,799 that transition to a kinetic war fighting organization was locked 312 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:09,679 in within twenty four hours. 313 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: And the mission changed completely before nine to eleven the 314 00:15:12,039 --> 00:15:16,360 core job was recruiting spies to steal secrets, the slow, 315 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,919 patient work of intelligence. 316 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: After nine to eleven, it became singular, obsessive just about 317 00:15:21,759 --> 00:15:23,720 destroying al Qaeda, destroying it permanently. 318 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:25,879 Speaker 1: Okay, But here's the part that is really fascinating, and 319 00:15:25,879 --> 00:15:27,240 I think we need to pause on this. It's the 320 00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:30,559 claim about how quickly they actually achieved that initial goal. 321 00:15:30,879 --> 00:15:33,759 Speaker 2: Right. This is a fact that often gets completely lost 322 00:15:34,039 --> 00:15:36,360 in the narrative of the long wars that followed. 323 00:15:36,519 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: The source material makes this astonishing claim that the core 324 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,320 of al Qaeda, the group in Afghanistan that actually attacked 325 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,279 the US, was destroyed by Christmas two thousand and one, 326 00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:49,720 in a matter of months. Wait, let's break that down. 327 00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:51,360 He cites a study, right, he does. 328 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:54,159 Speaker 2: He says he's citing a Senate Foreign Relations Committee study 329 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:57,159 that he thinks probably should have been classified and wasn't, 330 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,440 And that study concluded that by the end of two 331 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,519 thousand and one one there were only twenty five active 332 00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:04,519 al Qaeda members still in Afghanistan. 333 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:08,399 Speaker 1: Twenty five twenty five people's I mean, that's barely a 334 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,200 platoon after what was supposed to be this massive global organization. 335 00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:15,559 Speaker 2: It suggests that the initial strike, that combination of CIA 336 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,600 and military special forces was unbelievably effective at its stated 337 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:20,480 short term goal. 338 00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: So if that's accurate, what does that mean for the 339 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,480 next two decades of war? 340 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,039 Speaker 2: Well, the source clarifies the new landscape. He says, yes, 341 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,480 you still had the affiliates AQAP and Yemen AQA in 342 00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:34,200 North Africa, the seeds of what would become ISIS, and 343 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,399 of course Bin Laden in the Zawahiri were still alive. 344 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:40,519 Speaker 1: But the Central Command, the group that hit the Twin Towers. 345 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: As a functioning fighting force in Afghanistan, he says, they 346 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,840 were done by Christmas of one. 347 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,919 Speaker 1: The implication of that is just enormous. It is It 348 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:52,639 means the huge paramilitary machine that the CIA built in 349 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:57,320 twenty four hours. It achieved its primary objective almost immediately. 350 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,080 But the machine didn't get turned. 351 00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:03,039 Speaker 2: Off, It didn't dissipate, It just pivoted. It started hunting 352 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:08,359 the affiliates, maintaining this global counter terrorism posture, even though 353 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,440 the original threat from that core group was well functionally gone. 354 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,279 Speaker 1: And that initial success just fueled the mandate for this 355 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,720 new paramilitary structure that we still see today, which brings us. 356 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: Back inside the building we need to look at the 357 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,599 specific structures that grew out of this, these two competing 358 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,720 special activities units that still. 359 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,799 Speaker 1: Exist right, the structural bifurcation. This is where the bureaucracy 360 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,599 of spying meets the action of war fighting. 361 00:17:32,839 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: So we already mentioned the Special Activities Division or SAD. 362 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:39,960 That's the original covert action unit inside the Director of Operations, 363 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,759 the do the old Guard. 364 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,759 Speaker 1: But then after nine to eleven, the Counter Terrorism Center, 365 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,480 the CTC builds its own parallel force, pulling in all 366 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,960 that new military. 367 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,519 Speaker 2: Talent, the Special Activities Group or SAG. 368 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:53,759 Speaker 1: So what's the difference. 369 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: The SAG was made up of those military guys on 370 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,440 loan to CTC with a very specific mission to to 371 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,240 specifically target terrorists people actively planning attacks. 372 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,319 Speaker 1: And this created tension. The DOO, the traditional home of 373 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,359 the spies, probably saw the CTC as overstepping. 374 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:15,799 Speaker 2: A massive overstep, creating their own army basically, and Kiriaku 375 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,039 points to some operational differences that highlight this distinction. 376 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:19,759 Speaker 1: What were they? 377 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: He says, The SAD ground branch site is usually associated 378 00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:25,960 with direct action, the door kicking we talked about, and 379 00:18:26,039 --> 00:18:28,839 also things like high threat protective details. Okay, but the 380 00:18:28,839 --> 00:18:32,440 special Activities guys working for the CTC SAG, they focused 381 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,519 heavily on kidnappings. 382 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:35,559 Speaker 1: The unilateral capture operation. 383 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:37,279 Speaker 2: The first step in the rendition program, and that's a 384 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,640 very different skill set. It's about infiltration, surveillance, extraction, and 385 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:41,440 getting out clean. 386 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: And the logistics he describes for these kidnappings, it just 387 00:18:46,759 --> 00:18:49,160 sounds like something out of a movie. It shows the 388 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:51,119 extreme risks they were taking. 389 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: It's not a simple arrest warrant. It's an international abduction 390 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:55,960 from hostile territory. 391 00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:57,799 Speaker 1: Walk us through the process he describes. 392 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: Okay, So he says, these hops often start with the 393 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,200 team parachuting into the target area at night, totally undetected. 394 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:04,519 Speaker 1: Wow. 395 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: Then they have to steal a vehicle, usually a van, 396 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,759 something that won't attract attention while they set up. 397 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,039 Speaker 1: Surveillance and the actual snatch and grab right. 398 00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 2: They physically grab the target off the street, neutralize anyone 399 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,240 with them, and then it's all about speed getting out. 400 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:21,880 They have to get to a pre planned extraction point 401 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,200 to meet a helicopter or. 402 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: A plane, and then the final step flying. 403 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:27,559 Speaker 2: The person to wherever it is you're going to fly 404 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,920 him the rendition and he makes a really important point 405 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,640 about where these operations happen. 406 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: They're not happening in easy places. 407 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: No, He's very clear. They aren't snatching people in stable, 408 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,519 friendly places like Dubai or Abu Dhabi. 409 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: He gives examples of like. 410 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,039 Speaker 2: Benghazi or Khartoum or you know, Karachi, some of the 411 00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:49,279 most dangerous chaotic cities in the world. 412 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,319 Speaker 1: And when you lay it out like that, you see 413 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:53,880 why you need Delta Force or Seal Team six guys 414 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,799 to do it. The number of things that could go 415 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,400 wrong is just astronomical. 416 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,039 Speaker 2: It's why he says the work is inher currently very 417 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:01,839 very dangerous. 418 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: And moving from the field back to headquarters, the source 419 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,920 gives us this amazing little detail about the culture, the 420 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,519 actual physical space of the CTC where all this was 421 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:13,279 being planned. 422 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great anecdote. It really humanizes this massive, 423 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,799 shadowy organization. He gives a very concrete image of the 424 00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:24,400 CTC office as a huge chaotic bullpen with like. 425 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: One hundred and fifty people, analysts, targeters, case officers, all 426 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:29,359 crammed into cubicles. 427 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,279 Speaker 2: The sheer number of people they threw at the problem 428 00:20:31,319 --> 00:20:32,640 right after nine to eleven was just. 429 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: Overwhelming, and the space was so big. He says they 430 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,119 literally had to name the aisles. 431 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: Right, which is something you only do when a workspace 432 00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:41,359 gets so massive it's like its own neighborhood. He gives 433 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,200 these incredible, grimly funny examples. 434 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: And Laden Boulevard and Hesbla Highway. 435 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,279 Speaker 2: Can you imagine giving someone directions to your desk by saying, oh, yeah, 436 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:53,720 I'm at the intersection of Bin Laden and whatever. It 437 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,759 gives you this bizarre, frantic sense of scale, a state 438 00:20:58,759 --> 00:21:00,359 of emergency made permanent, and. 439 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,799 Speaker 1: Right in the middle of this giant, chaotic bullpen, you 440 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,119 have the military guys, and they're totally isolated. 441 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: Deeply compartmentalized. The source mentions they were probably working through 442 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,039 something like the OMEGA program, which was a formal structure 443 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:18,680 for integrating Joint Special Operations Command with the CIA. 444 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: But the cultural isolation is the fascinating part. They're in 445 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,599 the same room as one hundred and fifty civilian analysts. 446 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,880 But Kyriak, who says they never interacted, not even so 447 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,039 much as a good morning. 448 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: It's the ultimate example of need to know. 449 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: He said, they would just vanish for a week at 450 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,440 a time, or two weeks at a time, and then 451 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:37,279 come back whispering to each other and not interacting with you. 452 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: And he says, because of that, because they were so separate, 453 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,640 and because of how they looked, it was pretty easy 454 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,160 to figure out who they were and what they were 455 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,200 up to, even if no one ever said a word. 456 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: Their whole presence was defined by their operational tempo and 457 00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:52,359 their total refusal to integrate. 458 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: And that isolation is tied directly to the extreme secrecy 459 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,400 of their mission. The details of what they were doing, 460 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,319 the logistics, the targets were so secret that even though 461 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,920 everyone in the office kind of knew, you just didn't 462 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:05,519 talk about it. 463 00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:07,039 Speaker 1: The stakes were too high. 464 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 2: And that extreme secrecy it has this one final profound consequence, 465 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,839 especially for the men and women doing these high risk jobs. 466 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,599 It's how the agency deals with its own casualties. 467 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,079 Speaker 1: Right when one of these officers is killed in a 468 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,680 covert operation, the public never knows. 469 00:22:23,559 --> 00:22:27,079 Speaker 2: Their name, the circumstances of their death, it's all classified. 470 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,720 They receive a star on the CIA's Wall of Honor 471 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,480 at Langley. It's the highest tribute the agency can pay. 472 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,759 Speaker 1: But the key detail, the thing that hammers home the anonymity, 473 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:36,759 is what's missing. 474 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:40,559 Speaker 2: There's no name attached to the sore. It remains anonymous forever, 475 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:43,000 a silent marker for a silent service. 476 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:45,559 Speaker 1: And that really underscores the incredible risk and the total 477 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,359 anonymity of what these units do. They are, in a 478 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,039 very real sense, giving up the right to even be 479 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,079 mourned publicly for the work they do. 480 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 2: It's the final layer of separation between the reality of 481 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,440 the post nine to eleven CIA and the public it's 482 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:00,680 supposed to be protecting. 483 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: So when we put all this together, what does it 484 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,319 all mean. We've laid out this massive, incredibly rapid transformation 485 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,720 of the CIA. It went from a spy agency to 486 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:13,519 a paramilitary force. The line between spy and soldier just 487 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:15,039 got completely erased. 488 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,759 Speaker 2: And we've seen both sides of that coin. We've seen 489 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:21,960 the incredible bravery, like the GRS operators in Baghdad, literally 490 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,960 willing to die to protect a case officer. 491 00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:27,079 Speaker 1: But we've also seen the dark side, the extreme risks, 492 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,079 the moral failures, the repeatedly wrongful kidnappings, and the merciless 493 00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:33,400 torture of innocent people. 494 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,759 Speaker 2: We've seen how fast it happened. A decision made the 495 00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:37,960 day after nine to eleven that led to the destruction 496 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,559 of core Al Qaeda in Afghanistan by that Christmas a 497 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:42,240 stunning initial success. 498 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: But that success came at a cost. It meant institutionalizing 499 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,599 this lethal kinetic machine that really challenges the agency's original purpose. 500 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,119 And as Kyrioku argues, the constitution itself. 501 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: And we see the internal conflicts, the turf wars between 502 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,920 SAD and SAG, the insane risks of the rendition operations, 503 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:03,279 and this culture of isolation for the warriors inside this 504 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:03,759 s buy. 505 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: House, and that central conflict between immediate security and our 506 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:09,920 own founding principles. That's really the final thought we have 507 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:10,559 to leave you with. 508 00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:14,599 Speaker 2: It is we heard Jose Rodriguez's perspective that you need 509 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,359 people willing to make those tough politicians in a crisis, 510 00:24:17,799 --> 00:24:21,559 that extreme threats require extreme responses, and that's the logic 511 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,880 that created GRS, that fueled SAG, and that leads to 512 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,759 those anonymous stars on the Wall of Honor. 513 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: But the source also shows us that implementing that logic 514 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,559 often meant sidestepping the law entirely. It led to what 515 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,000 many Kuriaku included see as a systemic failure of ethics, 516 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,599 a betrayal of the rule of law. 517 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,599 Speaker 2: So the question for you for all of us. Is 518 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,279 this given the very real, very extreme security thread after 519 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,319 nine to eleven, and given the stark moral conflicts raised 520 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,559 by these tough decisions, where do you draw the line? 521 00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:54,839 Speaker 1: Is this highly kinetic, highly secret component doing these kill 522 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,799 or kidnap missions in places like Karachi and Benghazi? Is 523 00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:01,960 that a necessary evil protect the country or does this 524 00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:05,160 kind of covert mandate end up undermining the very laws 525 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,759 and values it's supposed to defend. 526 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: What is the right role for a spy agency when 527 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,720 a nation declares it's at war? 528 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,039 Speaker 1: Let us know what stands out to you from this 529 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,799 deep dive into the thrilling threads of the CIA's most 530 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:16,559 secret units.