Speaker 1: Hm. Welcome friends, podcast podcast Jackie about we need to
Speaker 1: unleash the greatest Warrior immortality, Turkin, It's yours. The loser
Speaker 1: will burn before nightfall. Now you know who you're fighting,
Speaker 1: then no one else. Troy, A Wolfgang Peterson film, Rated
Speaker 1: R May fourteenth. Welcome to a movie film commentary track.
Speaker 1: My name is Zaki Hasan and I'm here with Brian Hall.
Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going, Zachi?
Speaker 1: You know, Brian, I've always thought of you as kind
Speaker 1: of the the Agamemnon to my Menilais you kind of
Speaker 1: give off that that that Agamemnon conquered the Trojans energy? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. That's what I'm trying to put out there.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you're picking up what I'm putting down.
Speaker 1: You know, we're watching Troy today, the two thousand and
Speaker 1: four film, and this is one of those This is
Speaker 1: to me people often ask like, what's the what what
Speaker 1: makes How do we decide what we do our commentaries about?
Speaker 1: You know, and to me, sometimes we do anniversaries and
Speaker 1: sometimes like well, you know, if there's a new film
Speaker 1: coming out, we can do a previous version, and this
Speaker 1: is like when when else would we do Troy, right, right,
Speaker 1: we got we got. The Odyssey is about to come out.
Speaker 1: I know you're excited for it. Yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: people are excited for it. A lot of people online
Speaker 1: are are pretending they're not excited for to drive the Algo.
Speaker 1: But but what's been cool is is in the lead
Speaker 1: up to the Odyssey, there's been this renewed discussion about Troy,
Speaker 1: which has been fun because this one came out more
Speaker 1: than twenty years ago and it was a big hit,
Speaker 1: but it was sort of like, you know, critically, it
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly well regarded. It's like it was sort of
Speaker 1: collectively decided, no, we don't like this movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting, like it's watching it. I was thinking
Speaker 2: this is very of its moment for a lot of
Speaker 2: reasons that I'll get into. And even particularly with the
Speaker 2: actors here, Eric Banna, Orlando Bloom, these are people I
Speaker 2: associate with sort of the aughts, you know, and this movie,
Speaker 2: like you said, did make a lot of money, but
Speaker 2: it kind of stayed in the aughts.
Speaker 1: Really, that's right. Yeah, yeah, so interesting time capsule.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: So as always with these, I'm like, come on this,
Speaker 1: this this could be a fun discussion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, definitely. Well, and I gotta admit, I mean,
Speaker 2: I'll say it right before we start. I'm not superer
Speaker 2: familiar with the story of the Odyssey or the Iliad,
Speaker 2: like these are things I know through movies or references
Speaker 2: and things. So it was interesting to watch this and
Speaker 2: then read about people's opinions on this particular take and
Speaker 2: kind of have this in my head now for when
Speaker 2: I go into the Odyssey, right right, Like, people who
Speaker 2: are not major characters in this story are major characters
Speaker 2: in the Odyssey, And yeah, obviously things will be slightly
Speaker 2: different in that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. So, Yeah, it was nice.
Speaker 2: To get a little bit of a refresher, at least
Speaker 2: dip my toe, I guess, into this.
Speaker 1: World, into this world. Perfect timing. Yeah, so we are
Speaker 1: watching the theatrical cut. This is the two thousand and
Speaker 1: fourth theatrical cut. There is, of course, a two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven director's cut, which I believe you watched it
Speaker 1: in the lead up to this commentary track. Right, the
Speaker 1: director's cut I did three hours plus Yeah, me too, yep,
Speaker 1: So this will be my first time watching the theatrical
Speaker 1: cut since since oh four, same, Yeah, I am glad
Speaker 1: I watched the director's cut. However, no, me too.
Speaker 2: I mean it's going to be interesting because we're going
Speaker 2: to be noticing the differences, experiencing it differently in real
Speaker 2: time together live on Mike. So I'm kind of curious.
Speaker 2: Is I have that version fresh in my mind, and
Speaker 2: I'm just curious what we'll be missing and changed and rearranged.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see what we notice? Yeah, So if you want
Speaker 1: to watch along with us, we can. Again, it's the
Speaker 1: it's the theatrical cut. Best way to experience this commentary
Speaker 1: if you do want to sync it up, is of
Speaker 1: course the ad free version, which is available on our
Speaker 1: Patreon feed. Brian, you want to tell people about that?
Speaker 2: Yes, all you have to do head over to patreon
Speaker 2: dot com slash movie Film Podcast hit subscribe for only
Speaker 2: five dollars a month. You get all these commentaries, this commentary,
Speaker 2: every commentary we've ever done, which is a lot of them,
Speaker 2: all ad free. No ads are interruptions budding into the conversation,
Speaker 2: which is especially nice if you're trying to watch along
Speaker 2: with us. In addition to that, our regular episodes are
Speaker 2: I had free and we have bonus conversations that drop
Speaker 2: over there about twice a month, so I want to
Speaker 2: get into that Patreon dot com slash movie film podcast.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm ready, how about you? I'm ready. Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: do the usual thing. We'll hit play on three. Ready,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, one, two, three, play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am.
Speaker 1: I was eager to.
Speaker 2: Watch this different version here and just see how much
Speaker 2: I noticed. Yeah, but what I am a little sad
Speaker 2: about is because we're watching it with the sound off, right,
Speaker 2: we have close captions on so we can follow along.
Speaker 2: But I heard that the music was very different in
Speaker 2: the director's cut.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, So the film itself has a James
Speaker 1: Horner score, which he you know, he tossed it together
Speaker 1: a matter of weeks, Yeah, because they weren't happy with
Speaker 1: with the original score, but with the with the director's cut,
Speaker 1: they ended up leaving in a lot of the temp Hmmm.
Speaker 2: You know I noticed that stuff that sounded a little
Speaker 2: sinfy mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting. Well, well, specifically in the director's cut when
Speaker 1: when Hector and Achilles are fighting, it's the theme music
Speaker 1: from the Danny Elfman score for Planet of the Apes.
Speaker 2: I noticed that that.
Speaker 1: I was like, I know that music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know what I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: it really fits.
Speaker 1: It did work. You can see why they tempt it
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, you know, and and that sequence. I
Speaker 1: did watch the theatrical cut and that that's good too.
Speaker 1: It's different though, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, I might have to skip around through this
Speaker 2: after this and just yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So so right up top, we should say, uh,
Speaker 1: you know this arrived right in the in the renewed
Speaker 1: wave of sword and sandal pictures that really came into vogue. Well,
Speaker 1: I would say, like, like what we saw in the
Speaker 1: nineties was these these modern takes on old timey epics, right,
Speaker 1: so we could we could maybe start the clock with
Speaker 1: Robinhood Prince of Thieves.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was gonna I was thinking Braveheart, but
Speaker 2: you're right, Robinhood Prince of Thieves for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Brave Heart. We'd throw that in the mix. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Gladiator was a huge hit in two thousand and Gladiator
Speaker 1: had been offered to Wolfgang Peterson, who turned it down, Okay,
Speaker 1: and he regretted having turned it down. Yeah, sure. And
Speaker 1: so it's fascinating to look at the chronology of you know,
Speaker 1: this is like the sliding doors of Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, it's kind of strange, right, Yeah, these
Speaker 2: big movies that we associate with specific directors. It's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: this was in this director's hands for a while, then
Speaker 2: another director's hands for a while. It would have been
Speaker 2: an entirely different movie.
Speaker 1: Well, specifically with Wolfgang Peterson in the early two thousands,
Speaker 1: was attached to Batman Versus Superman? Right, do you know
Speaker 1: a lot about that?
Speaker 2: I don't know a lot about that.
Speaker 1: Take not a ton. I mean I read a I
Speaker 1: read a synopsis of what it was. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was meant to be a very big deal. And then
Speaker 1: and then at the very last minute Warner Brothers kaibashed it.
Speaker 1: And this project Troy had initially been developed by Peterson
Speaker 1: and then he jumped ship to do Batman vs. Superman
Speaker 1: and and so in the interim, this got assigned to
Speaker 1: a young buckstrap named Christopher Nolan wild right, right, and
Speaker 1: then Batman Versus Superman gets gets gets the Axe. So
Speaker 1: Wolfgang Peterson's like, all right, well I want to do Troy.
Speaker 1: And so they're like, okay, Christopher Nolan, how about this
Speaker 1: Batman thing? Crazy amazing right, crazy slightings, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so you know it is full circle. Nolan never
Speaker 1: forgot about being in this realm. H So, here we are.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I wonder if he had some visions and now that
Speaker 2: he can do whatever he wants, He's like, not only
Speaker 2: can I bring those visions to life, but I can
Speaker 2: bring them to life my way.
Speaker 1: I've got the power, so so too. Thus, first of all,
Speaker 1: Brian Cox is having the time of his life in
Speaker 1: this movie.
Speaker 2: I loved watching him in this.
Speaker 1: He he talked about how he this was the one
Speaker 1: and only time he he went and aggressively like campaigned
Speaker 1: for a role. Hmmm, because they were thinking about giving
Speaker 1: it to Ben Kingsley and he's like, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: You're giving it to me. Oh he's so good in
Speaker 1: this and you can see why. Second, I didn't realize
Speaker 1: that's Julian Glover, who's yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I I clocked him immediately for some reason, just out
Speaker 2: of that face, you know, and I'm used to older
Speaker 2: looking him. I think from Game of Thrones. Thrones, oh,
Speaker 2: which the Game of Thrones connection. David Benioff, that's right,
Speaker 2: wrote the screenplay for this. That's right, I'm looking at
Speaker 2: imd It says the writers are David Benioff and someone
Speaker 2: named Homer just want one word, like Madonna.
Speaker 1: Simpson, Dude, what must life be like to be this guy?
Speaker 1: Just this this behemoth of a man.
Speaker 2: Freaking walking action figure, like I mean truly like trying
Speaker 2: to walk through doorways.
Speaker 1: You know. See, I would imagine that if he and
Speaker 1: I don't, if he's like a teddy bear of a guy,
Speaker 1: nobody would even know because they'd be so intimidated by him.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, there there's a Cheers episode where, uh,
Speaker 1: you know the guy from Revenge of the Nerds who
Speaker 1: just passed away recently, the big Ogre. That's it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he's in Cheers and he's hired as like a
Speaker 1: bodyguard for the bar, and everyone in the bar is
Speaker 1: like afraid of him, and they don't want to They're
Speaker 1: like they they don't want him there, and they don't,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and then finally at the end,
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, you could just like talk to
Speaker 1: me like I'm a person, and you just feel so terrible.
Speaker 2: You get a lot of if you're if you're into
Speaker 2: like Brad pitt Butt, you get a lot of Brad
Speaker 2: pitt Butt.
Speaker 1: In this movie very much. So well, this is this
Speaker 1: is this is peak pit this is peak pit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh dude, there are times where I'm just like, wow,
Speaker 2: Like his face, he's like the sun shining at you,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, he's just he's whatever
Speaker 2: your feelings about him, he is an objectively attractive person.
Speaker 1: Well, it's very funny because I saw multiple interviews of
Speaker 1: of with Brian Cox, like retrospectively. Multiple times he's like
Speaker 1: and then you know, Brad Pitt showed up, and you
Speaker 1: know that's hilarious. Now here's the interesting thing. Brad Pitt
Speaker 1: did not want to be in this movie.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I we might have the same quotes here,
Speaker 2: but I want to Yeah, please get in.
Speaker 1: If you've got the specific quotes, definitely pull it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: he was supposed to be in The Fountain, the Aaronofsky flick.
Speaker 1: He backed out of that, and so he had to
Speaker 1: he had like a make do, make good to do
Speaker 1: with Warner Brothers. So he does Troy and and he's
Speaker 1: he said as much, He's like, I wasn't really feeling it.
Speaker 1: I have to say, though, he's pretty good in this
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 2: I mean playing this character like this is a really
Speaker 2: interesting kind of anti hero sort of character, you know,
Speaker 2: like he's he does things I don't like, but he
Speaker 2: looks a little mournful about them, you know, like he's
Speaker 2: the way he treats Rose Burn's character, like he's an
Speaker 2: interesting guy who's also a born killer.
Speaker 1: And he showed up like he ain't walking through it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: he and you might have the specific quote, but but
Speaker 1: he he talked about how he's like, I didn't have
Speaker 1: a bad time making it. I just didn't want to
Speaker 1: be there. Yeah, you know what I mean. But he
Speaker 1: got seventeen millions, so you know what, dry the tears, Brad, Wow,
Speaker 1: you'll be all right, yes, seriously.
Speaker 2: Although also, you know, I think we've talked about how,
Speaker 2: you know, you look at Indiana Jones in the eighties.
Speaker 2: They made a big deal in nineteen eighty four with
Speaker 2: Temple of Doom about how like, oh, Harrison Ford, we
Speaker 2: got him this like elite trainer and his body you
Speaker 2: won't even believe the shape he's going to be in
Speaker 2: for this movie. And then when you see him with
Speaker 2: his shirt off, you're like, yeah, he looks like a
Speaker 2: relatively healthy guy, you know what I mean. And then
Speaker 2: you get into the Marvel era and they make these
Speaker 2: people look like him, possibly cut, you know, action figure
Speaker 2: type things, and you hear the actors being like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is not you can't live life and be this way.
Speaker 2: You have to eat this insane diet. You have to
Speaker 2: live this certain way. And it's yeah, it's untenable in
Speaker 2: real life. It's just you do it for a couple
Speaker 2: months and it's a nightmare, but you look great on screen.
Speaker 1: Survive on chicken breasts alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and all the amount of calories you have
Speaker 2: to eat and stuff like that. But anyway, I was noticing,
Speaker 2: like Pitt in here. I'm like, dude, he is fricking
Speaker 2: cut yep. But he wasn't in Fight Club too, you know,
Speaker 2: so this this was like, yeah, peak Pitt yep, you
Speaker 2: know where he got to do this.
Speaker 1: He's forty here. Wow. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so yes, so he I had the quotes
Speaker 2: here about I think this is him reflecting about being
Speaker 2: a little disappointed with Troy, and he said, I had
Speaker 2: to do Troy because I guess I can say all
Speaker 2: this now. I pulled out of another movie and then
Speaker 2: had to do something for the studio, so I was
Speaker 2: put in Troy. It wasn't painful, but I realized the
Speaker 2: way that the movie was being told was not how
Speaker 2: I wanted it to be. I made my own mistakes
Speaker 2: in it, and.
Speaker 1: He'sai.
Speaker 2: It's no slide on. Wolfgang Peterson Dos Bood is one
Speaker 2: of the all time great films, but somewhere in it,
Speaker 2: Troy became a commercial kind of thing. Every shot was like,
Speaker 2: here's the hero, there's no mystery. And you know, I
Speaker 2: actually did have that thought even before I read that quote,
Speaker 2: and I took that quote because it supported my thought,
Speaker 2: which was what's interesting is.
Speaker 1: Often these movies.
Speaker 2: Gladiator, Brave Heart, whatever, they are epic, and they are
Speaker 2: action films, but they also have an elegance to them
Speaker 2: and sort of an artistry. And this one plays a
Speaker 2: bit more like a blockbuster to me. Yeah, just on
Speaker 2: a character level, on a even just the way that
Speaker 2: it shot. And it reminded me because I watched another
Speaker 2: movie from this era recently called Blood Diamond.
Speaker 1: Oh oh gosh, Yeah, there's your quintessential mid aughts movie.
Speaker 2: Absolutely because and it's about a very serious topic about
Speaker 2: blood diamonds and you know, people mining them and dying
Speaker 2: for them and just so the rich can get richer.
Speaker 2: But what struck me about that movie was the tone
Speaker 2: treats that story like an action film, whereas now I
Speaker 2: think there'd be a little bit more gravity to everything
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: And so anyway, this reminded me of, oh, this feels
Speaker 2: like an Aughts epic. It feels a bit more like
Speaker 2: a blockbuster. And Brad Pitt, I think he that's what
Speaker 2: he was saying. Here every shot feels like here's the hero.
Speaker 2: And then, interestingly enough, in a different interview, I saw
Speaker 2: Orlando Bloom talking about being in this movie and.
Speaker 1: He's he too, was not not thrilled to be in it.
Speaker 2: Well it's funny because he said, I think I just
Speaker 2: blank Troy out of my brain. By the way, so
Speaker 2: many people love that movie, but I didn't want to
Speaker 2: do that movie. I was like, who wanted to be
Speaker 2: in this movie?
Speaker 1: Brian Cox, He specifically says, I didn't want to be Paris.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, He specifically calls out that moment where he's
Speaker 2: like hugging his brother's leg, you know, like a coward,
Speaker 2: and he just he's like, I just can't I don't
Speaker 2: want to I can't understand this guy. I don't want
Speaker 2: to play this guy.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and he pins it on his his agent.
Speaker 1: It's like that moment it makes the movie and he's like,
Speaker 1: oh okay, and here I was, well there, that guy's
Speaker 1: just calculating his percentage, right.
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, wait, this is post Pirates. Right when
Speaker 2: did Pirates come out?
Speaker 1: This is post Pirates? Yea, two thousand and three was Pirates. Okay,
Speaker 1: So Orlando Bloom obviously he had his his Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings run right from two thousand and one to
Speaker 1: two thousand and three. He gets he gets Pirates right
Speaker 1: in the middle. He does this in O four, he
Speaker 1: does Kingdom of Heaven O five, Kingdom of Heaven. As
Speaker 1: as you know, I'm a big booster of that film,
Speaker 1: especially the director's cut, and he's he gives a you know,
Speaker 1: a solid performance in that and certainly it's like I
Speaker 1: have qualms because he feels like he's trying to act
Speaker 1: more grown up in that movie. But you can you
Speaker 1: can see how like that's what he'd rather be doing
Speaker 1: than sort of this this this sniveling. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: he's not sniveling, but he's he's weak. Yeah, he's well,
Speaker 1: I mean he's clearly cowardly. Yeah. Yeah. Now, now, interestingly,
Speaker 1: like this this comes. You know, I gotta say, if
Speaker 1: if Dian Krueger just presents herself in that way to you,
Speaker 1: can you really blame Paris? Well?
Speaker 2: I yeah, they cast well because you can understand why
Speaker 2: someone would get lost in their decision making, why.
Speaker 1: Somebody would launch a ten year war.
Speaker 2: Yes, Dan Krueger, I mean, she's stunning in this movie. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: this is this is the.
Speaker 1: Most extreme example of letting your wiener make your decisions
Speaker 1: to calamitous effect.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, it's funny, that would be a
Speaker 2: good title. Maybe we can play with that a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know. I actually I don't even know where to
Speaker 2: go with that. But I later in the movie, just
Speaker 2: as things kept happening, I wrote down, like you could
Speaker 2: call this movie an escalating series of bad decisions.
Speaker 1: No, So what I was saying was, was this arrived
Speaker 1: in that moment where these I don't know what's the word,
Speaker 1: weird demitification, you know, like yeah, right, right, right right,
Speaker 1: like fantastical stories or fantasy stories, and we're sort of
Speaker 1: we're bringing them down to earth, you know. Oddly enough,
Speaker 1: very nolan ish in that way, right.
Speaker 2: Which is funny because his version keeps the gods and
Speaker 2: cyclopses and the things.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, well, that's the paradox about this film, right,
Speaker 1: is that, like the story of the Battle of Troy
Speaker 1: and Helen and the Trojan Horse, none of that is real.
Speaker 1: That did not happen, right. There was a city called
Speaker 1: Troy and it was sacked at some point, but there
Speaker 1: was no Achilles, there was no Hector, none of it, right.
Speaker 1: And so it's a tale, it's a poem that is
Speaker 1: that's told, and it incorporates gods and things like that
Speaker 1: because it is a fantasy story. Right. So when you
Speaker 1: take out the gods and you say no, we're telling
Speaker 1: the historical versions, like, well, no, you're not, because it's
Speaker 1: not history, right, right, And so that, like I understand
Speaker 1: the choice. Uh you know why, you know, because you
Speaker 1: don't want it to look like Clash of the Titans
Speaker 1: or something m with you know, Laurence Olivier and various
Speaker 1: other people in with with bath towels, you know, playing
Speaker 1: chess with people you don't want to do that. Sure, fine,
Speaker 1: but so much of of of what is depicted in
Speaker 1: in the original story, I mean, the events happened because
Speaker 1: of the machinations and manipulations of the gods that's what
Speaker 1: causes these Like even even Paris's seduction of Helen was
Speaker 1: a result of Aphrodite being involved, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Well, actually I wanted to ask you about that because,
Speaker 2: like I said, I'm not an expert on these stories,
Speaker 2: and I've read that this movie may have changed this
Speaker 2: take like in other takes, Helen does not want to
Speaker 2: go with Paris, or like she's a prisoner.
Speaker 1: It's it depends on the telling, right, Either either she
Speaker 1: was seduced by Paris or she was kidnapped by Paris.
Speaker 1: That really it just depends. But I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the even the Iliad, right, the Iliad is not it
Speaker 1: doesn't depict the whole ten year war. The Iliad depicts
Speaker 1: like one month in this long conflict. So the film
Speaker 1: crunches that down. You know, Menelaus is not as belligerent
Speaker 1: as he's depicted here, you know, I mean that there's
Speaker 1: more complexity, right, but even still, it's not it's not
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's not like Helen loved Menelaus either,
Speaker 1: so room there's room to say, well, she was looking
Speaker 1: for somebody to love her. But the reason Paris even
Speaker 1: shows up there is because of Aphrodite putting him on
Speaker 1: that path. I see right, because because based on previous tellings,
Speaker 1: how does how does Helen marry Menelaus? You have all
Speaker 1: these other men vying for her, among them Odysseus, by
Speaker 1: the way, and essentially they there were there were too
Speaker 1: many men for her to choose from. And this this
Speaker 1: is her stepfather who was deciding who would marry her,
Speaker 1: which was the custom then, And so Odysseus proposes, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to propose a solution, and and whoever, whoever wins,
Speaker 1: we all have to agree that we will like we won't,
Speaker 1: we won't be rivals to him. We will we will
Speaker 1: defend him. And so they literally drew straws. And that's
Speaker 1: how Menelaus won. That's how Helen wow. And so by
Speaker 1: the way, that's why when when the war begins, that's
Speaker 1: why all these people get brought in because they they
Speaker 1: took that oath, right right, So this movie adds this
Speaker 1: geopolitical element to make it more quote unquote realist. I see,
Speaker 1: I see right. Oh. No, Agamemnon is just using Helen
Speaker 1: as a pretext because he wants to expand his territory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it was it was really it was just about Helen,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Wow, yeah, very different. Yeah, you know, by the way,
Speaker 2: just I was looking at them on the boat. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is something we've been talking about recently. This
Speaker 2: is twenty twenty six for whoever is listening to this later.
Speaker 1: But they're on an actual boat with actual water and
Speaker 1: actual sun.
Speaker 2: Actual sun. That's what I was gonna say, because you know,
Speaker 2: the movie, the live action remake of More Juanas coming
Speaker 2: up this week as we record, and looking at that trailer,
Speaker 2: you can just see that they're in a room with
Speaker 2: a fake son, so like none of the lighting makes sense.
Speaker 2: Both of their faces are shaded, you know, despite the
Speaker 2: sun being in one position apparently, and it just looks
Speaker 2: so false, you know, like my brain just is like
Speaker 2: this is wrong.
Speaker 1: It just looks.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's not dynamic, it doesn't look sunny.
Speaker 2: It doesn't look like Hawaii or magical or anything. It
Speaker 2: just looks like something made in a box somewhere. And
Speaker 2: it's sad to me. And anyway, recently I was actually
Speaker 2: rewatching John Carter of Mars John Carter, sorry forgive me,
Speaker 2: John Carter. I was watching John Carter and it has
Speaker 2: the same problem where there are certain scenes where you're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're out somewhere like Utah or something, I don't know,
Speaker 2: with the flats and it looks good. But then there
Speaker 2: are other times they're supposed to be outside on these
Speaker 2: ships and they're all like shaded yea, you know, and
Speaker 2: like it doesn't the lighting doesn't make any sense, and
Speaker 2: you're like, ugh, it's just it's this thing that I
Speaker 2: feel like we're seeing more and more and maybe people
Speaker 2: are just accepting it and so they'll they won't change it.
Speaker 2: And it's just watching this and seeing these people. You
Speaker 2: don't even have to actually be out on the sea, right,
Speaker 2: but like be on a boat in a parking lot,
Speaker 2: fill in some fake water, but get the real sun
Speaker 2: on these people, and then you'll just just subconsciously you
Speaker 2: will be that much more invested in what's happening on screen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, because it feels like they're actually there and
Speaker 2: in the moment. So anyway, I just had to call
Speaker 2: that out because it's noticeable and I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's what we saw during this this
Speaker 1: sort of mini era where these epics came back for
Speaker 1: like a second. They you know, because Gladiator and Brave Heart.
Speaker 1: You know, again this is pre cgim and so you
Speaker 1: had to do it for real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, and this all you could do. I
Speaker 2: Gladiator famously, like they extended.
Speaker 1: The car and they did the same thing in this
Speaker 1: but but but but not like yeah, you weren't you
Speaker 1: weren't shooting on the volume, you know, right right, And
Speaker 1: you know, they spent one hundred and eighty five million
Speaker 1: dollars making this thing. They built a real fricking Trojan wall. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it and it shows, I mean, it looks it,
Speaker 1: you know it. It just it drops us into the
Speaker 1: reality of the world. And and that kind of very
Speaker 1: similitude is so important because because to me, what you're describing,
Speaker 1: like with Mowana, which I haven't seen, but but you
Speaker 1: can just see from the trailers, right, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: people standing against a green screen and a bunch of
Speaker 1: digital stuff added around them. Yeah, and that's just less interesting,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just kills the illusion, whether you realize it
Speaker 2: or not. Right, you know, I mean this even you know,
Speaker 2: like looking at them fight among these you know, not
Speaker 2: ruins but stones or whatever you want to call it,
Speaker 2: like archways, like it's just the real breeze blowing in
Speaker 2: their hair.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: I just get that. I feel the spirit that they
Speaker 2: want me to feel here. You know, this guy training
Speaker 2: and being out outdoors and man, when it just feels
Speaker 2: so flat and you can tell there's just a fan
Speaker 2: blowing on them and the lighting is strangely dim for
Speaker 2: them supposedly being out under the beautiful sun of Hawaii.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a strange decision that I don't I mean,
Speaker 2: I do understand. I'm sure the rock didn't want to leave,
Speaker 2: you know, a ten mile radius of his house or something.
Speaker 2: You know, that's probably what it was, but you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know. So Garrett Headland, which I didn't realize.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I just want Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, this guy looks kind of like
Speaker 2: Brad Pitt, Like I get that they're supposed to be
Speaker 2: related here, And then I went on IMDb and it's like, oh, dang,
Speaker 2: I didn't even recognize him.
Speaker 1: Well, he had been in LA for a month when
Speaker 1: he got this gig. Holy cow, So talk about the luck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's done, okay, you know, Garrett Headline, he's still
Speaker 1: working yeah. Yeah. So so one of the differences from
Speaker 1: the director's cut is there's an earlier scene introducing Sean
Speaker 1: Bean as Odysseus where you have Agamemnon's emissaries going to
Speaker 1: Ithaca where he's the king of Ithaca and he's just
Speaker 1: in the woods, kind of dressed like a regular guy,
Speaker 1: and they're like, we're looking for for king Odysseus. And
Speaker 1: he's like Odysseus, that guy. He can't keep his hands
Speaker 1: off my wife, you know, and and you know he's
Speaker 1: kind of a trickster ish, you know. And and I
Speaker 1: actually liked that. I wish they would have kept that in,
Speaker 1: if only because it allows us to meet you know,
Speaker 1: because Odysseus ends up as sort of like the narrator
Speaker 1: of the film, right, and I think we really don't
Speaker 1: get very much context for who he is in in
Speaker 1: the in the theatrical cut.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great introduction.
Speaker 1: I think so. And and it and it also points
Speaker 1: towards his characterization in the Honesty, right, because that's he's
Speaker 1: he's very clever mm hmm. You know, it's very funny
Speaker 1: because Odysseus, Odysseus is like the Fraser of this movie.
Speaker 1: He's like his stuff is coming later, right, right, right,
Speaker 1: that's here. He's most like, oh, forgot's sake, Achilles, that's good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Sean Bean is so good in this. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love Sean Bean. I think Sean Bean was really driven
Speaker 1: by two goals, uh, to not be the secret bad
Speaker 1: guy and to not die like that. I was shocked
Speaker 1: that he survived. Well canonically, you know, he's got to
Speaker 1: make it out.
Speaker 2: Of that, I guess, But yeah, I know it's it's
Speaker 2: I don't know, muscle memory. If I see him on screen,
Speaker 2: I got to prepare to mourn him eventually.
Speaker 1: See I I wonder if, like when when they offered
Speaker 1: him Game of Thrones with Ned Stark, He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is great, and then he gets to scenes family. God,
Speaker 1: damn it, son of a bitch. Yeah, I gotta say.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not able to really clock the details
Speaker 2: of what's changed here, but I can sense that it
Speaker 2: is moving at a faster clip for sure. Sure, I
Speaker 2: would say the director's cut, which I did appreciate watching
Speaker 2: because like, to your point, we do get extra sort
Speaker 2: of character moments. I mean, I notice we get a
Speaker 2: longer a second moment between Hector and Paris after he
Speaker 2: visits with after Paris visits with Helen, and Hector says
Speaker 2: something about, like, dude, if you was he say something
Speaker 2: about like if you put like our people or something
Speaker 2: in peril, like I'll rip that pretty face of yours
Speaker 2: off or something. I was like, ooh damn. Yeah, like
Speaker 2: that's older brother talk right there, which we didn't get here.
Speaker 2: So it's but it's moving a little quicker. I did
Speaker 2: write down director's cut leisurely. Yeah, so you know, but
Speaker 2: if you're interested and you're invested, it's nice to have
Speaker 2: those extra things. But I could see why this is
Speaker 2: the theatric.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think collectively those additions do add up,
Speaker 1: because because by and large, by the time those three
Speaker 1: hours and fifteen minutes were done, I didn't feel like
Speaker 1: I had spent that much more time, you know, like
Speaker 1: it it added up in a way that I appreciated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the little bits and bobs, especially later, like we get
Speaker 1: much more the relationship with Brsis and Achilles and stuff.
Speaker 1: I think I think all of that collectively worked for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess it just sort of depends what you want
Speaker 2: out of it, Like if you want to watch like
Speaker 2: a two thousand and four epic and have some fun
Speaker 2: in an evening, like I could see the theatrical cut
Speaker 2: so far from what I can tell, like doing the
Speaker 2: trick and yeah, moving a little bit with a little
Speaker 2: more urgency or something. But if you're really interested and
Speaker 2: want to spend more time exist in this world, I
Speaker 2: don't think the director's cut has scenes where you're.
Speaker 1: Like, why is this in here? Yeah? There there's that
Speaker 1: Odysseus scene and then a scene at Apollo's temple that
Speaker 1: I like both of those editions actually real quick before
Speaker 1: we move on, I wanted to mention Julie Christy as
Speaker 1: as that is Achilles' mom. Now now in the mythology,
Speaker 1: thatis is a sea goddess. Okay, right, so Achilles is
Speaker 1: a demi god. Oh interesting, half man, half god, and
Speaker 1: so he has supernatural power.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, that makes a lot of sense
Speaker 2: why he's such a effective killer.
Speaker 1: Exactly right. And and so the movie what what what
Speaker 1: I find kind of interesting is that the movie it
Speaker 1: doesn't say definitively he that that's not true. When we
Speaker 1: see thatis she's in water, So there's at least room
Speaker 1: for that, right, And I and I think that's very interesting, right,
Speaker 1: like it it's it's telling the story and and the
Speaker 1: god's impact did insofar as you have people doing things
Speaker 1: based on what they think the gods want, right, So
Speaker 1: there's room for you to you know, you can say, well,
Speaker 1: is Achilles supernatural or not? Right Achilles? You know, his
Speaker 1: his weakness was was his heel because that was when
Speaker 1: he was dipped in the magic water. That was the
Speaker 1: only area that was uncovered m or where he was
Speaker 1: held from as a baby. Right now, when when he
Speaker 1: is injured at the end, it happens to be in
Speaker 1: his heel. I mean you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: they leave like the wiggle room.
Speaker 2: Well, I love that he gets all these arrows everywhere else,
Speaker 2: but he pulls them all out exactly and the only
Speaker 2: one left is in the heel. So if someone were
Speaker 2: to discover his body and tell the tail create the legend.
Speaker 1: I guess his heel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was like, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1: I like that. So Peter O'Toole is our second Peter
Speaker 1: O'Toole commentary in the span of a month. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've ground from zero to two O'Toole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, who apparently did not have a great time.
Speaker 1: Here's this movie. So Peter O'Toole. What I've learned based
Speaker 1: on this and Supergirl is my man shows up, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you know what, he's good in this totally yeah right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he he knows the assignment, you know.
Speaker 1: I think I think for a lot of it it
Speaker 1: comes down to the fact that he's Peter fing O'Toole. Right.
Speaker 1: It doesn't really need to do much. But he has
Speaker 1: a scene with with Achilles in the tent. It's a
Speaker 1: terrific I mean, it's just agit. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe my favorite scene that that whole moment, even
Speaker 2: and outside the tent after that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now he did not suffer Wolfgang Peterson gladly.
Speaker 2: Now what is that about? I mean, what is Wolfgang
Speaker 2: Peterson like? Do you know what it was? Specifically?
Speaker 1: I have no idea because because Brad Pitt was like
Speaker 1: I got along fine with Kank Peterson, you know, so
Speaker 1: I think it's just just the chemistry was off, you know. Interesting.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's something about these this generation of actors
Speaker 2: where they're just inherently interesting, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like they could just say these lines in act regal,
Speaker 2: but they have like a little twinkle in their eye.
Speaker 2: Or they add just like a little little just something,
Speaker 2: a little affectation so effortlessly that makes them you know,
Speaker 2: that's why we're.
Speaker 1: Like, well, that's that's why he's Peter O'Toole. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he's not holding it back here, he's going, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's doing it. He's he's not just reading off the page.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he like we said, I mean, he he was
Speaker 1: not a fan of the film. At the premiere, he
Speaker 1: walked out after fifteen minutes. Interesting. I saw like a
Speaker 1: junk Ket interview with him about this movie, and oh
Speaker 1: my god, I felt such like secondhand cringe watching this interviewer.
Speaker 1: So did this like remind you of Florence of Arabia?
Speaker 1: And I mean you can tell he's being very polite.
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't really see how it's like Laurence,
Speaker 1: you know, and you're like, oh god, why was you
Speaker 1: asking that?
Speaker 2: You know what, though, that's very classy of him. Yeah, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not seeing the connection, Like he's not
Speaker 2: he's not b sing the guy, but he's you know,
Speaker 2: but he's being polite about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was rough. That is rough though. Actually I
Speaker 1: saw speaking of Junket cringe, I saw another one this
Speaker 1: is this is the video was how not to begin
Speaker 1: a celebrity interview, So right, naturally, I'm like, well, obviously
Speaker 1: have to c yeah, and it's it's an interview with
Speaker 1: John Cuzak. And and forgive me, I don't remember the
Speaker 1: name of the movie, but the but the young lady
Speaker 1: who's interviewing him, she's like, you know, it's funny. I'm
Speaker 1: actually skipping class to to be here to interview you
Speaker 1: and my class, you know, they're watching American Beauty. Isn't
Speaker 1: that funny? And he's like, why is that funny? Because
Speaker 1: you're in it. He's like, no, no, I'm not. Are
Speaker 1: you sure, like nope, nope, not in it? Really, And
Speaker 1: she did this like four times, and right, I can
Speaker 1: I can feel you cringing.
Speaker 2: I know, or I'm like just say oh my bad,
Speaker 2: you know, or like like don't don't insist that he's
Speaker 2: wrong about his own film.
Speaker 1: About his own movie. So obviously she thought he's Kevin Spacey,
Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, by the way, I can imagine myself in
Speaker 2: a scenario like that where you've been there, you you
Speaker 2: become untethered, yeah, and you're just like swimming trying to
Speaker 2: get back to land, like I I know that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I it's I feel such I feel so
Speaker 1: bad for that person. You know.
Speaker 2: Actually I was going to ask, even before you started
Speaker 2: the story, watching things like that, do you get like
Speaker 2: a secondhand PTSD years, I get.
Speaker 1: Like so twitchy? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you know, yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I can't like that.
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I watch shows about the industry and I
Speaker 2: see characters that are like people that I know, or
Speaker 2: like jobs that I've been in orbit around, or writers
Speaker 2: getting crazy notes or things, and I'm like, I like
Speaker 2: this because I'm interested in this world, but this is
Speaker 2: making me very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, anyway, so we should talk about Helen among
Speaker 1: the people now. Originally Wolfgang Peterson his idea was we
Speaker 1: just won't even show Helen, and.
Speaker 2: That was because he wasn't sure he could cast someone
Speaker 2: as captivating as Helen required.
Speaker 1: To be because she's supposed to be so beautiful, right right,
Speaker 1: And Warner Brothers is like, well, no, you're casting Helen.
Speaker 1: That's insane.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be funny if she was, like I'm sure,
Speaker 2: what's a movie like that where like maybe there's a
Speaker 2: character that's always reference But we only see them in
Speaker 2: shadows or off screen. I feel like I'm thinking of something,
Speaker 2: but I can't. Yeah, come up with the r but anyway,
Speaker 2: that would be interesting if she, Yeah, she was. I
Speaker 2: guess this is the only thing I can think of.
Speaker 2: Is g this and been her or something where it's
Speaker 2: like we all know who he is, but we don't
Speaker 2: see him, but he affects you know, you just see
Speaker 2: people looking up at him. Yeah, yeah, people react, yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: which would be crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Cooler heads prevailed. They were talking about Catherine Zida Jones.
Speaker 1: I think Hallie Barry was in the mix.
Speaker 2: Okay, she'd be like the suitcase from Pulp Fiction, where
Speaker 2: there's like a glow on everyone when she walks into
Speaker 2: a room where people look look at her. Yeah anyway, sorry.
Speaker 1: Yes, But instead they went Dian Krueger. First movie. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that. Wow, okay, first American movie.
Speaker 2: Okay, because she's German, right.
Speaker 1: Correct, and she's she's great in this. I really liked her.
Speaker 1: I think, so, yeah, yeah, you know, she gets some
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, right because like you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: easy to be like, well, you know, like on one level,
Speaker 1: you're like, well, Helen, you kind of started all this,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, but it's her in Paris both.
Speaker 2: I was gonna, well, I don't know what this is
Speaker 2: about me, but I was just blaming Paris the whole time.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, they're both in it together.
Speaker 2: She didn't have to go, but yeah, you're right, it's
Speaker 2: they're in it together.
Speaker 1: Now, we have not talked about Eric Banna at all,
Speaker 1: which is a crime. Yeah, yeah, he is so good
Speaker 1: in this movie.
Speaker 2: He's like, I mean, just even looking at him smile
Speaker 2: right there, like, yeah, he just has this inherent like
Speaker 2: I don't know, goodness or something like. He shines through
Speaker 2: as a guy with integrity and warmth.
Speaker 1: See. This is one of my clearest memories of watching
Speaker 1: this for the first time. Is I mean, if you
Speaker 1: know the story, you know, well, Hector dies fighting Achilles.
Speaker 1: That's like the most famous part of the story. And
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to love Hector so much, to just
Speaker 1: be like, like when when that moment comes in the
Speaker 1: lead up to his final face off with him, where
Speaker 1: you're like, you know what's going to happen yep, And
Speaker 1: it's just absolutely hard.
Speaker 2: I was anguished, honestly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It
Speaker 2: was yeah, knowing what's going to happen, it's hard to watch,
Speaker 2: and just even the circumstances of it, I'm like, it
Speaker 2: was a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, right, Like he he is he
Speaker 1: he's like the only one who does all the right stuff, right,
Speaker 1: He's he's he doesn't want to be fighting this war,
Speaker 1: but he this is his nation. He has to protect
Speaker 1: his nation, He has to protect his family. You know,
Speaker 1: he has to face Achilles because you know that's what
Speaker 1: Honor demands, you know.
Speaker 2: His dumbass little brother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. You know. Eric Banna was ecstatic about
Speaker 1: playing Hector. Yeah, you know, he met with with Wolf
Speaker 1: King Peterson and he's like, oh, do you want to
Speaker 1: be a Hector Achilles? Like, no, I want to be Hector?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? And and Peterson said, oh, good, because
Speaker 1: because Brad wants to play Achilles, you know, perfect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: He's like, okay, let him do that, you know. And
Speaker 1: and I think the reason uh Banna works in this
Speaker 1: role is that it's almost the opposite of Brad. Brad
Speaker 1: Pitt looks like he's he's sculpted out of marble. Eric
Speaker 1: Banna just looks like a guy, you know, he's he's
Speaker 1: he's a fit, regular guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he looks like he can fight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh you can kick your ass. But it looks
Speaker 1: like yes, like like like he looks like a bloke,
Speaker 1: you know, totally yes, yes, yes, head yeah, and and
Speaker 1: I think that's what drew Eric Banna to to this part.
Speaker 1: Now I should mention, Brian, You've had several entanglements with
Speaker 1: several of the cast members from.
Speaker 2: This film now that I think about it. Strangely, within
Speaker 2: just about a year, I would, yeah, brush shoulders with
Speaker 2: Orlando and Helen and and Helen Yeah, and uh and
Speaker 2: Orlando Bloom. Also the so the a year after this
Speaker 2: movie came out, I was working on the movie Mister
Speaker 2: Missus Smith. Of course Brad Pitt's on that, and he's
Speaker 2: a cool guy. He like interacts with me a little
Speaker 2: bit more than a big star of that movie, you know,
Speaker 2: needs to, because he seemed like a dude. And they
Speaker 2: were filming Elizabethtown there. Wow, So I saw Kirsten Dunston,
Speaker 2: Orlando Bloom, and Cameron Crowe. Cameron Crowe gave me a
Speaker 2: really warm hey, how's it going in a hallway?
Speaker 1: And it was just like that was it?
Speaker 2: Like it sounds like a silly little story, but for me,
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, that was like really And then
Speaker 2: after mister Missus Smith, I went on to this movie
Speaker 2: called Lucky You, and I was about to just say
Speaker 2: the title, but I realized I have to explain it
Speaker 2: because no one's seen it. It's it's a poker movie
Speaker 2: that Curtis Hansen wrote and directed Churs Hanson of La Confidential,
Speaker 2: Late Gat Late Great, Great Guy, Great Guy. I was
Speaker 2: just a PA on that movie, and he went out
Speaker 2: of his way to invite me to screenings, Like personally,
Speaker 2: he'd be like, hey, we're having a screening. We're doing pizza,
Speaker 2: Like you should come, nice guy, And like why is
Speaker 2: Eric Banna probably the nicest celebrity I worked with in
Speaker 2: my movie days.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 2: Just to tell a real brief personal anecdote. So he's
Speaker 2: from Australia and he had to live in this apartment
Speaker 2: complex in La while he was shooting Lucky You, and
Speaker 2: so was he and his family moving in and they
Speaker 2: wanted the production wanted me to help move him in,
Speaker 2: you know, like, hey, this is your place, this is
Speaker 2: where the office is. If you want to call for food,
Speaker 2: these are good restaurants in the area, that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know any of this stuff,
Speaker 2: so anyway, I could tell much longer version of this.
Speaker 2: But I went over there. They were so warm and friendly.
Speaker 2: I showed him around, we hung out for a little bit,
Speaker 2: and for the rest of the shoot, he was always like, hey, Brian, Like,
Speaker 2: how's it going, Brian, And then like when he'd be
Speaker 2: in a cart with his family around the lot, he'd
Speaker 2: be like, Hey, there's Brian. Wave it Brian, you know,
Speaker 2: and then he'd be like, how you doing, what's going on?
Speaker 2: Like genuinely kind and interested in me? And so I
Speaker 2: never forgot that he and Eugene Levy probably two of
Speaker 2: the nicest.
Speaker 1: People I met. I love that. Yep.
Speaker 2: So I've really I love him and I've been endeared
Speaker 2: to him ever since, and I think I bring that
Speaker 2: with me when I watch him in movies, like, yeah, he's.
Speaker 1: A good guy. He's a good dude. Which is funny,
Speaker 1: by the way, just talking about we just talked past
Speaker 1: that line that you thought was, oh, yes, Brad Pitt says,
Speaker 1: take it, it's yours, It's yours.
Speaker 2: I remembered that from the trailer, but I like, if
Speaker 2: you had said that quote, I'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's from like a like an action movie. But I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have remembered what it was till I rewatched this.
Speaker 1: There you go, You're welcome.
Speaker 2: But I was gonna say real quick with Eric Bannon,
Speaker 2: we keep talking about his warmth and everything, but it's
Speaker 2: funny the way he sort of broke out. He was
Speaker 2: a comedian first in Australia on like sketch comedy stuff
Speaker 2: like he was known as like the Australian Jim Carrey,
Speaker 2: which is still hard for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he followed kind of a Michael Keaton trajectory,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly.
Speaker 2: Well, and then he was in this movie called Chopper, which,
Speaker 2: strangely enough, he played this really crazy violent character. That's right, right,
Speaker 2: So that's what's funny is that role with like the
Speaker 2: shaved head and this aggression and everything is what basically
Speaker 2: got a bunch of people to cast him in American
Speaker 2: movies where he never really played that type again.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, well he so he had Hulk and three,
Speaker 1: uh huh, he had this and O four and then
Speaker 1: and then he had Munich and five. Yeah what a
Speaker 1: run man, you know. So so he works with with
Speaker 1: with ang Lee, with Peterson, with Spielberg. Oh, and he's
Speaker 1: so good in Munich, by the way, I got to
Speaker 1: rewatch that man. He's fantastic.
Speaker 2: And I remember delivering him the script for Munich. They
Speaker 2: gave it to me in an envelope and to me
Speaker 2: this was like, this is a Steven Spielberg's next movie.
Speaker 2: I'm holding it in my hands speaking of the suitcase
Speaker 2: from Pulp Fiction and a glow on my face. I
Speaker 2: remember being like wow, and I got to hand it
Speaker 2: over to ban Aya.
Speaker 1: So so this sequence here where where Achilles and the
Speaker 1: and the Mermaidens they they make landfall. So what is
Speaker 1: cut out is where they take over an Apollonian temple.
Speaker 2: Oh that's not in this version. Yeah, oh that seems
Speaker 2: very important. Yeah, I mean, especially for the Rose Byrn character.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the fact that what you have is is
Speaker 1: Achilles' people are like, you know, this is a temple
Speaker 1: of Apollo. We don't want to upset Apollo. And then
Speaker 1: he beheads the statue of Apollo and says, I don't
Speaker 1: see him doing anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's a priestess.
Speaker 1: She's a priestess there. Yeah, so that's fascinating. I didn't
Speaker 1: even notice that. Okay, Tyler Mayne, by the way, as Ajax,
Speaker 1: he was sabertoothed. And oh tax Man Movie, by the way,
Speaker 1: Brendan Gleeson, Great, there's a guy. There's a type.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just certain people that feel effortless. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they just feel like a fully dimensional, interesting person, you know,
Speaker 2: no matter who they're playing in Brendan Gleeson, good lord.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, first time I saw him was was Braveheart yep,
Speaker 1: which you know, I'm sure was the same for you.
Speaker 1: And and you realize, like Brave Heart was you know,
Speaker 1: you had Brian Cox and Brandon Gleeson. They're in Braveheart.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, I forget about it.
Speaker 2: I haven't watched it in a really long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Orlando Bloom and Brandon Gleeson, they're in
Speaker 1: Kingdom of Heaven. All these like overlaps between these epics. Interesting.
Speaker 1: I love I love Achilles, like jump slash thing that
Speaker 1: he does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got like a special move.
Speaker 1: It's like his it's like his rock Bottom. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, yeah, a good character. It's like you
Speaker 2: gotta you unlock this move and then he's unstoppable.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so this sequence got trimmed down in the
Speaker 1: in the director.
Speaker 2: You know, I gotta admit, when I was watching the
Speaker 2: director's cut, I did have to split it up over
Speaker 2: two nights, and that was my fault. I started it
Speaker 2: a little too late and it's over three hours. But
Speaker 2: I did think like, okay, this is there's nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with this, and I am enjoying it. But I could
Speaker 2: see where you could maybe take some things out and
Speaker 2: I might not notice, but now that you're mentioning the
Speaker 2: things that are missing, I'm like, well, but not that right,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: See I think just I think just seeing big crowds,
Speaker 1: oh man, horses and stuff, and you know, I think
Speaker 1: that that's uh, that's rare.
Speaker 2: You know, it's so impressive. I actually the moment where
Speaker 2: everyone's Hector, Paris and Helen are arriving in Troy, and
Speaker 2: it's just you see, the streets are lined with people
Speaker 2: and there's pedals floating down and horses and grandeur. And
Speaker 2: I was thinking that earlier, like wow, this is just
Speaker 2: so I stand correct at that. Oh there we go, Apollo.
Speaker 2: Don't worry if you want to see Apolo get beheaded.
Speaker 2: If you're not, if you're coming for that. You're getting
Speaker 2: it no matter which cut you're watching. But no, I'm
Speaker 2: with you. I mean, I know, like even just this,
Speaker 2: a shot like this, like a hundred horses galloping over
Speaker 2: the sand. It just looks so impressive. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the shots I think of because people don't do
Speaker 2: that as much these days, or they do trickery that
Speaker 2: just kind of in the back of your brain, you know,
Speaker 2: it's not quite you know, there's trickery happening, which I
Speaker 2: can understand for budgets sake sometimes obviously. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: think of the dark Knight rises when you have the
Speaker 2: cops and bains henchmen in the street and there's just hundreds,
Speaker 2: hundreds of people standing there in costumes, charging at one another,
Speaker 2: and you're like, wow, that Christopher Nolan is one of
Speaker 2: the few people now who can be like, no, it
Speaker 2: won't work unless we have hundreds of people in costumes
Speaker 2: charging at one another, right, And you're just like, well,
Speaker 2: thank God for that guy. At least he's still. And
Speaker 2: that's why I'm really looking forward to The Odyssey, whether
Speaker 2: or not I even like it as a film. I
Speaker 2: haven't seen it yet. I know I'm going to witness
Speaker 2: something that not a lot of filmmakers are able to
Speaker 2: pull off in twenty twenty six scope scale this, you.
Speaker 1: Know, going back to what we were talking about earlier, right, like,
Speaker 1: so Nolan is getting lined up to do this, He's
Speaker 1: getting excited, and then and then they're like, hey, sorry bro, yeah,
Speaker 1: and is he like Man mother effort? You know, yeah, fine,
Speaker 1: but you can do Batman all right?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Right? You know, And and it's just like, could he
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, at that moment, could he
Speaker 1: have imagined how this door that was closing was the
Speaker 1: best possible thing that he could ever have imagined?
Speaker 2: Probably not, right, because we never can, right, And he
Speaker 2: gets to make his odyssey the way that he I'm
Speaker 2: sure it would have been compromised in some ways for
Speaker 2: him in that moment. But now who's going to tell
Speaker 2: him no? You know, he gets to shoot. I think
Speaker 2: this is the first film entirely shot with Imax cameras,
Speaker 2: a dream he said he's had since he was sixteen
Speaker 2: years old.
Speaker 1: Amazing, and just.
Speaker 2: Having to wait a little bit longer allowed him to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: See. Now this sequence here is very interesting, right because
Speaker 1: so this is our first confrontation between Achilles and Hector,
Speaker 1: and what you realize is that they're ideologically very similar, right,
Speaker 1: Like we so we saw we saw Hector, excuse me,
Speaker 1: we saw Achilles behead the statue and he's like, I
Speaker 1: don't see Apollo here, right, And we see something very
Speaker 1: similar from a from Hector later where the priests are like, oh,
Speaker 1: the gods are saying this, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're talking about what birds are doing and this and that. Right.
Speaker 1: So in other words, they have this like the characters
Speaker 1: I should say, expressing like this vaguely atheistic worldview, right,
Speaker 1: but I would say it's a humanistic worldview, and that's
Speaker 1: at odds with the armies that they represent. Yes, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So ideologically they're very similar, right. And you know that's
Speaker 1: when when after when, when when Achilles is giving the
Speaker 1: body back, he says, you know, we'll meet again, brother,
Speaker 1: Like I that spoke to me, you know.
Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, they they they have a respect for
Speaker 2: one another, an understanding of one another, And yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: That made that very moving at the end, even though
Speaker 2: I was furious exactly Achilles killing him, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: there is a code or something.
Speaker 1: Well like right here right where he's like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: why are you letting him go? Yeah, and I love Achilles.
Speaker 1: It's it's too early in the day to be killing princes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's just because he respects him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you know, I I read somewhere I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is true, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: preface that, but that in the trailer there was more
Speaker 2: ships in the sea, and then people were like, that
Speaker 2: doesn't even make sense, Like ships couldn't operate like that,
Speaker 2: So they scaled back the ships in the although looking here,
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's a lot of ships.
Speaker 1: It is a lot of ships. Well, I remember maybe
Speaker 1: it was referring to the earlier shot where you see
Speaker 1: it's just the sea and you see a sea full
Speaker 1: of ships coming towards Troy.
Speaker 2: That's true because here they've pretty much landed.
Speaker 1: They've landed. Yeah, yeah, man, just so much effort back then,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean obviously they used computers
Speaker 1: to fill in a lot of this, but again, it
Speaker 1: was like the technology wasn't yet there where you could
Speaker 1: just you could just lean on the computers to do
Speaker 1: most of it, and so you needed extras. You needed
Speaker 1: you know, you need to go to other countries and you.
Speaker 2: Know, mm hmm, I know this would I don't even
Speaker 2: know what this, you know, just the structure that they're
Speaker 2: putting up on the beach here. It's just some production
Speaker 2: designer and had to look at look at all this.
Speaker 1: It looks so.
Speaker 2: Lived in and really like you could walk through it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, they were supposed to shoot in Morocco, and
Speaker 1: then the Gulf War broke out. Mmm remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Which one?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, go War two? Yeah, and so they shot
Speaker 1: it in Mexico, so they had to basically just up
Speaker 1: and take everything across the way. Wow, man, I mean
Speaker 1: it it look I mean, Brad Pitt got his seventeen million,
Speaker 1: so I'm going fine, but I mean he definitely he
Speaker 1: put his body through it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I guess this at the time was the most
Speaker 2: expensive R rated movie ever made.
Speaker 1: I think, oh wow at the time.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess if you're building all this stuff
Speaker 2: and moving it from country to country, it adds up.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the other thing is that it topped out
Speaker 1: at just under five hundred million, And it occurred to me,
Speaker 1: I'm like, remember when that was Okay, that was a hit,
Speaker 1: right right right, Like I feel like the metrics for
Speaker 1: success are so upside down now, Yeah, that either you
Speaker 1: spend nothing or you make everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah rose byrne By the way, I had
Speaker 2: forgotten she was in this.
Speaker 1: I love her. Yeah, well it you know, initially they
Speaker 1: were talking to Kien Nightly, who was like eighteen. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was having a funny moment, wasn't she Like
Speaker 2: she was blowing up. But she was a lot younger
Speaker 2: than I think people realized. I mean when you watch
Speaker 2: Love actually, you know, like a funny little trivia thing
Speaker 2: is that Liam Neeson's son, the actor who plays his
Speaker 2: son in that movie, is only five years younger than
Speaker 2: keer Knightley in that movie, and he looks like like
Speaker 2: an eight year old.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: You know, it's one of those things where he's one
Speaker 2: of those actors that looks younger than he really is.
Speaker 2: But she was seventeen in that movie playing you know
Speaker 2: this like quote unquote adult like getting married and it's
Speaker 2: pretty messed up, and she's yeah, it's kind of kind
Speaker 2: of crazy. I mean, she looked as far as I
Speaker 2: could tell, at least when the movie came out, because
Speaker 2: I was around her age or something. I don't know,
Speaker 2: like I didn't think about it, but now you think
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was certainly pairing her with forty year
Speaker 1: old Brad Pitt was gross. Yes, right.
Speaker 2: I actually I wasn't even thinking about her in this movie, yeah,
Speaker 2: just I was thinking that her style might not fit this,
Speaker 2: Like she does really well in Pirates, right, Like she's
Speaker 2: perfect for that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the sort of.
Speaker 2: I don't know, tragic figure here that Burne is playing,
Speaker 2: I think she does it well. Well.
Speaker 1: Rose burn got the bit, It got the gig off
Speaker 1: of Eric Banner's recommendation. Yeah, fellow ausy, I guess it
Speaker 1: pays to have friends, right, Yeah, because you talk about
Speaker 1: a career that has never stopped.
Speaker 2: I know, and it's been very varied, right. I mean
Speaker 2: that's the thing I'd forgotten about her in this. But
Speaker 2: then the thing I think I first remembered her from
Speaker 2: was Get Him to the Greek.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, okay, see I haven't even seen that.
Speaker 2: Because she plays this sort of like pop star in it,
Speaker 2: and she's really funny and kind of, you know, not ditzy,
Speaker 2: but you know, goofy, and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: she's really hilarious. And then of course Bride'smaids and all
Speaker 2: these sorts of things and then now she's on that
Speaker 2: show Platonic Oh right right, it was seth Rogen and
Speaker 2: that is a.
Speaker 1: Real showcase for her because she gets to do it all.
Speaker 2: She gets to be funny, she gets to be hurt, sad, angry,
Speaker 2: and you're like, wow, she she can do anything, you know.
Speaker 2: And then of course you know she got to do
Speaker 2: if I had legs, I'd.
Speaker 1: Kick you, and was getting all that awards recognition for
Speaker 1: a nomination for the drama you know. Yeah, she's amazing career. See.
Speaker 1: I love the the fact that Achilles is, you know,
Speaker 1: he he has to fight on behalf of Agamemnon, and
Speaker 1: yet he carries that contempt like Agamemnon is nothing without me,
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And I just think it makes for such
Speaker 1: an interesting dynamic because you you you know, I love
Speaker 1: when when you have a scene like this right where
Speaker 1: the violence is in the words you know, and in
Speaker 1: the performance. The only the only downside to me is
Speaker 1: you almost wish there was a payoff where where Agamemnon
Speaker 1: gets his up and from Achilles.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, if you could change the story a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, now, interestingly, both Agamemnon and menilaeis they survive
Speaker 1: the events of this story, right that, like, like this
Speaker 1: is the thing. I mean that they the Hollywood, you know,
Speaker 1: feels compelled to create a happy ending. But I mean,
Speaker 1: Troy is sacked, the city falls, everyone dies, Yeah, Helen
Speaker 1: is returned to Troy, and at least in so far
Speaker 1: as the Trojan War, Agamemnon and Menilais are victorious, that
Speaker 1: doesn't really make for a compelling story.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because I guess the director's cut
Speaker 2: the sacking of Troy is extra. Oh my gosh, it's
Speaker 2: it's horrific. It's it's horrifying. Yeah, yeah, like babies being
Speaker 2: thrown and stuff. And I was like, and I was
Speaker 2: looking at the time.
Speaker 1: Wait, but women being assaulted.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I saw that this was basically the
Speaker 2: end of the film, and I was like, ah, but
Speaker 2: I feel terrible, Like is this.
Speaker 1: Really is how this is gonna end? But yeah, well,
Speaker 1: and and you know this is this is part of
Speaker 1: you know. I like by the way he calls him
Speaker 1: a sack of wine, it's just such a such a
Speaker 1: great insult sec of wine. I think that when when
Speaker 1: you look at the events of the Odyssey, at least
Speaker 1: part of it is Poseidon wanting vengeance on you know,
Speaker 1: the people who did that to Troy, right, Like see
Speaker 1: that that's the interesting thing, right when we take the
Speaker 1: when we take the gods out of it. You know,
Speaker 1: you can almost make this work, right, this story, but
Speaker 1: you can't make the Odyssey work at all, right, because
Speaker 1: the Odyssey is a pure fantasy story. Yeah, So this
Speaker 1: is where Brian Cox kept talking about, like, man, Brad
Speaker 1: just came out and you know, the sack of Wine.
Speaker 2: It was interesting Brad pitt. I was reading that this
Speaker 2: was his fourth highest grossing film worldwide, and so I
Speaker 2: was looking at what those movies were and it's this
Speaker 2: f one World War Z and Mister and Missus Smith,
Speaker 2: which I was like, that's so interesting because he's one
Speaker 2: of the most famous people in the world, but he
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily have these like hugely profitable hits.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: By the way, I don't there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: construction happening next door to me. I don't know if
Speaker 2: that's bleeding through into this. I apologize, and just a
Speaker 2: little explanation for any weird sounds happening around me. You know,
Speaker 2: it sounds like it sounds like when Sam Neil's trying
Speaker 2: to do that call to the dinosaurs when he's in
Speaker 2: the tree tops. So if anyone's hearing it, apologies anyway, Sorry,
Speaker 2: go ahead, Zechi.
Speaker 1: What was I saying? Oh? Yeah. With Brad Pitt, I
Speaker 1: feel like he had a moment upon making this movie
Speaker 1: be similar to George Clooney after Batman and Robin, where
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I don't need to make these movies.
Speaker 1: I'm good, Like, I'm just gonna make stuff that is
Speaker 1: interesting to me.
Speaker 2: I know I can get the things I'm interested and made.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And well you see that in you know,
Speaker 1: for example, something like The Big Short where he has
Speaker 1: a secondary role and it's it's not flashy, but it's
Speaker 1: it's a fun character part. And you can tell that
Speaker 1: that's much more where his muse lies, you know, totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh Paris, it is like infuriating watching this room full
Speaker 2: of men decide how many It's like, well, I guess
Speaker 2: we can let hundreds of people die.
Speaker 1: Well when Paris stands and he's like, fine, I'll challenge menlause.
Speaker 1: On one hand, you're like, well, you freaking idiot, right right,
Speaker 1: right right, that's the one honorable thing you've done in
Speaker 1: this whole movie. But you're such a affing moron because
Speaker 1: because I mean, just just look at Menilouse. He'll obliterate him, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the battles ending before it even starts,
Speaker 1: you know, right, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, no, that's a good point. At least
Speaker 2: he's attempting to do something honorable, just something I had read,
Speaker 2: speaking of taking the.
Speaker 1: Gods out of the story.
Speaker 2: They approached Terry Gilliam to direct this at some point,
Speaker 2: which I can kind of see, and he was like,
Speaker 2: I don't understand how you even do this story without
Speaker 2: the gods in it, and so he just immediately turned
Speaker 2: it down.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, like, I mean, I think he's right, and
Speaker 1: that also suits his storytelling. He's more whimsical, we e
Speaker 1: Zach roach. Yeah, it's interesting because I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like Wolfgang Peterson has not done fantasy.
Speaker 1: He did the Never Ending Story, that's true, right, So
Speaker 1: certainly that was in his tool chest, but I think
Speaker 1: by and large he was better known for stuff that
Speaker 1: is a bit more grounded. He I mean, we've ended
Speaker 1: up doing many Wolfgang Peterson films, right, just sort of
Speaker 1: by chance. Yeah. Yeah, in the Line of Fire, Air
Speaker 1: Force one Outbreak now, Troy, Yeah, we got to do
Speaker 1: Doss Boot at some point.
Speaker 2: I've never seen dos Boot, and that's the thing everyone
Speaker 2: always brings up with him.
Speaker 1: That's a good movie. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did see Enemy Mine not long ago. I talked
Speaker 2: about it here on the show, and I really loved it.
Speaker 1: That's a good movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about like yes, like how you mentioned his
Speaker 2: toolbox and it's just like it's all over the place.
Speaker 2: But Enemy Mine feels like a real combination of all
Speaker 2: of it. A little bit of fantasy, a little bit
Speaker 2: of heart, a little bit of space, a little.
Speaker 1: A music venture, very similitude, right, definitely. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: think that's what really sells it.
Speaker 2: And something that I've always found interesting about the never
Speaker 2: Ending Story, which I loved as a kid, is the
Speaker 2: fact that it he made it, and when they decided
Speaker 2: to release it in America, apparently Steven Spielberg put his
Speaker 2: hands on it and retooled it a little bit to
Speaker 2: make it more palatable to American audiences. So which makes
Speaker 2: me wonder what the original version was like.
Speaker 1: In the original version, the horse takes thirty seven minutes
Speaker 1: to die. Yeah, right, it's just our text art texts just.
Speaker 2: Like, which were people who don't know what Zach He's
Speaker 2: talking about children of the eighties. That is like one
Speaker 2: of the major cultural traumas for us, that horse dying
Speaker 2: in the swamp of sadness art texts.
Speaker 1: It's it's just thirty seven minutes of that text.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Spielberg's just like shaking, he said no, and
Speaker 2: Peters is like, what, It's great though, So.
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention Saffron Burrows as Andrew Macky. She
Speaker 1: she gives that character such like sadness, and and for me, like,
Speaker 1: I think, I think one of the smarter choices is
Speaker 1: we see so much of the battle between Hector and
Speaker 1: Achilles playoff of her, you know. And this is where
Speaker 1: again it's like yeah, right, like I mean just the
Speaker 1: the realization of what's happening, you know, yep. But I mean, like,
Speaker 1: by and large, I think I think the female characters
Speaker 1: are well served in this film. I was thinking about that.
Speaker 1: I was like, presais Helen, and Andrew Macky, They're all
Speaker 1: good characters. They're not just arm candy or eye candy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I'm also it makes me appreciate their performances. Two,
Speaker 2: just seeing how much these these actors bring to them
Speaker 2: and make them feel like dimensional characters, and they're all
Speaker 2: good actors, right, yes, yeah, Dan Krueger, of course, you
Speaker 2: know I think of her. When I think of her,
Speaker 2: I think of inglorious bastards. Yes, how amazing she is
Speaker 2: in that?
Speaker 1: Did you mention how you encountered her? Uh no, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember. Actually, I'm sort of blinking. Do you remember. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it was with regards to was it called Shutter?
Speaker 2: Oh that was Rachel Taylor?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, sorry. Wasn't there a movie you're involved
Speaker 1: in the Joshua Jackson?
Speaker 2: Yes, oh oh oh, yes, which okay, I'm sorry. Yes,
Speaker 2: he worked on Shutter, and I may I did actually
Speaker 2: have to go into his house while no one was there, yeah,
Speaker 2: which is very weird and so and I was like
Speaker 2: out of gas and they lived on the top.
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me you saw Dan Krueger like
Speaker 1: in real life, and just she was just stunningly beautiful.
Speaker 2: I must have lived a very charming life, because I'm
Speaker 2: having a hard time. I believe it, and I'm just
Speaker 2: having a hard time remembering it. But yes, I did
Speaker 2: encounter him a couple of times, and he may.
Speaker 1: She may have been with him. They were dating at
Speaker 1: the time, yes, yes, but yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 2: The story I always think of is I was out
Speaker 2: of gas up at their house and then I saw
Speaker 2: a gas cannon. I was hoping they weren't any cameras,
Speaker 2: and I went and I took his gas and took
Speaker 2: the car. I was like, I gotta get home.
Speaker 1: Man. Would be funny, is if there's a whole separate
Speaker 1: story about how Joshua Jackson needed gas founding on that gas,
Speaker 1: Like there's a whole ordeal he went through that you
Speaker 1: have no idea about. He almost played Bruce Wayne and
Speaker 1: Batman begins, but he didn't make it to the audition
Speaker 1: because he's like.
Speaker 2: Diane, I swear I filled this thing with gas.
Speaker 1: His car is going up the hill and then it
Speaker 1: just rolls backwards in a.
Speaker 2: And it rolls right to like a cop who's like,
Speaker 2: you know, it gives him a ticket, you know, like
Speaker 2: you're allowed to go backwards here, you know, like just
Speaker 2: a series of unfortunate events. Joshua Jackson's no good, very
Speaker 2: bad day and that night on.
Speaker 1: The news, so Christian Bale has signed on to play
Speaker 1: back and in lighter News, Joshua Jackson keeps going backwards
Speaker 1: in the wrong and you're just watching that eating a burger.
Speaker 1: You have no idea, like the I just flipped the channel.
Speaker 1: I don't even listen to the rest of the story.
Speaker 1: You mute. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: He's a nice guy too, though, by the way, Joshua Jackson, Yeah,
Speaker 2: very friendly.
Speaker 1: See he seems like a cool guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean for starting as a child actor.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes those people can get a little uh
Speaker 2: you know, they even had bad experiences the supply exactly, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're either bad experiences or yes, they don't live in
Speaker 2: the real world, so to speak. And yeah, he's a
Speaker 2: very charming, nice guy.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that for him, And this is important
Speaker 1: in our Troy commentary talking about Joshua Jackson. But yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think he's seen enough ups and downs
Speaker 1: during this long career and the fact, right, I think
Speaker 1: the fact that he's kept working is proof enough that
Speaker 1: he's probably a pretty chill guy, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: totally because at some point people don't need to give
Speaker 1: you work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, that's a good point again, man, the
Speaker 2: power of being actually outside.
Speaker 1: Look at them on this balcony here, it's fantastic, you know.
Speaker 2: And the drama. Yeah, you know, like I really sense
Speaker 2: her being up high looking down on all of this.
Speaker 2: You know, men are about to be slaughtered because of her, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I just think that really it's not to keep
Speaker 2: picking on it, but just that flat lighting and the
Speaker 2: Maana trailer I'm seeing where they just feel but here
Speaker 2: look at them with the harsh light on their faces,
Speaker 2: like the wind blowing their hair, and it's like this
Speaker 2: real ominous right feeling of what's what's ahead. It just
Speaker 2: adds that extra touch, you know, it's that's actually a
Speaker 2: sweet moment there Helen looking at Paris, you know, and yeah,
Speaker 2: sort of.
Speaker 1: And she gives them This is the problem is that
Speaker 1: we need to buy that she loves him, yes, for real? Right,
Speaker 1: And I don't know that the movie ever fully licks that, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it feels like, well, that's what sort of
Speaker 1: the story requires. Yeah, you know, I wonder if maybe
Speaker 1: making him not so much of a pussy would have
Speaker 1: been helpful in that way, you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, or some scene with them together where we
Speaker 2: really get a sense that this is.
Speaker 1: For real, Well, we do get that in the in
Speaker 1: the director's cut. I would say, like, we believe that
Speaker 1: he does love her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm with you.
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I do believe it. Yeah, but I yeah,
Speaker 1: I I don't know. I wouldn't. It's tough, I think fundamentally,
Speaker 1: the I mean, there's a reason that generally speaking, you
Speaker 1: watch this movie and you're like frea com Paris.
Speaker 2: You know, I know, yeah, yeah, but maybe that's important. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because this is stupid, you know what I mean, this
Speaker 2: shouldn't be happening.
Speaker 1: Well again, I just love that Eric Banacoti so well.
Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want to play Paris for sure.
Speaker 1: I was not gonna do it. Yeah, yeah, that's very funny.
Speaker 2: But I like that moment where she's kind of standing
Speaker 2: there on the balcony like, oh man, oh like I
Speaker 2: caused this.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then Peter O'Toole is like sit with me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, wow, that is very warm.
Speaker 2: She's family now.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The fact that King Priam never once expresses anger
Speaker 1: at her, for yes, you know, uh, you know, certainly
Speaker 1: after what happens to Hector, you know.
Speaker 2: Tells you a lot about him. And then I love
Speaker 2: that shot too with the army approaching, and then you
Speaker 2: get that slow push in on Peter O'Toole with a whoa, okay,
Speaker 2: you know sort of yeah, wide eyed, this is this
Speaker 2: is not good.
Speaker 1: It's kind of look on his face.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean it's almost like comical, just like ah,
Speaker 2: but like it, but it works, I think, yeah, No,
Speaker 2: you're right, you know, I gotta say too.
Speaker 1: I mean we.
Speaker 2: Sometimes get down on CG stuff from time to time,
Speaker 2: but like, obviously all those people aren't there, right, I
Speaker 2: think it's really effective. I think they knew how many
Speaker 2: real people to put there to make my brain believe it,
Speaker 2: and then where to start the extensions and make it
Speaker 2: feel like a crazy, massive crowd.
Speaker 1: A really great job. Well, I think, right, like this
Speaker 1: is very much the Lord of the Rings totally approach,
Speaker 1: right where, totally where. I think the reason those films
Speaker 1: have held up pretty well is because Peter Jackson knew
Speaker 1: when to rely on actual physical people or sets and whatnot,
Speaker 1: and then when to extend it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like what you said earlier with this movie, like
Speaker 2: building real walls when that will sell the scene, and
Speaker 2: there are certain walls you don't need to build.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, valiant, ill advised, but valiant. Yeah. Brian
Speaker 1: Cox making a meal of this movie, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of makes me.
Speaker 2: I've not seen Succession, but I just feel like it'd
Speaker 2: be fun to watch him coxing it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well my brother loves that show. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been. I watched the first episode or so or so,
Speaker 1: and I did like it, but I was like, God,
Speaker 1: these people are vile.
Speaker 2: That's what's kept me from it. I thought I might
Speaker 2: just get so I clench my fist when I watch
Speaker 2: shows like that with awful people being awful, and I
Speaker 2: thought I might not be able to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That so it is one of those shows I
Speaker 1: do want to watch at some point. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: it's hilarious. How many times Brian Cox just takes the
Speaker 1: piss out of Jeremy Strong. Oh sure, sure, for being like,
Speaker 1: you know, a character actor's character actor like method, you know,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah, and he's like, come on, dude, to
Speaker 1: show up and do the lines, you know, right, right right,
Speaker 1: Like that's very Olivier. Right. Famously, when uh, when they
Speaker 1: were making Marathon Man Dennis Dustin Hoffman and Lawrence Olivier
Speaker 1: and and Hoffman. This is this is a story which
Speaker 1: is maybe apocryphal, but Haffin's like, you know, his character
Speaker 1: is ragged and and and gone without sleep. So for
Speaker 1: three days he didn't sleep and he's just you know,
Speaker 1: so exhausted in order to play the role. And Olivia
Speaker 1: is like, well, if you tried just acting right right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think I think. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have this this class of like English actors who
Speaker 1: that's you know, their stage bred, you know, so it's
Speaker 1: kind of like you just you just you perform it
Speaker 1: and then when it's done, you could you switch it off,
Speaker 1: you know, right, And that's that's very different from from
Speaker 1: the method. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do like that basically.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: He's like, well, we're gonna we're gonna do this anyway,
Speaker 2: you know, We're going to take them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I think this is interesting, right because because
Speaker 1: in in the in the poem, ah Aphrodite intervenes and
Speaker 1: saves Paris.
Speaker 2: Oh right, wow, okay, I didn't realize that there are
Speaker 2: like major changes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So so Aphrodite saves Paris. At that point, Helen
Speaker 1: realizes maybe she doesn't like Paris so much. M hmmm,
Speaker 1: because so Aphrodite has has taken on a protective role
Speaker 1: when it comes to Paris, and so uh that you
Speaker 1: remove her from the from the story, and so that
Speaker 1: changes the dynamics of how things go. So so again,
Speaker 1: Menelaus doesn't die in the in the story, but in
Speaker 1: this you have Hector intervene in Menolause. It's just you know,
Speaker 1: it's again, it's like you move one piece and then
Speaker 1: everything else changes, you know. Interesting. Yeah, m.
Speaker 2: I didn't even think about David Benioff, you know, this
Speaker 2: kind of leading him into this sort.
Speaker 1: Of Yeah, I don't know if you want to call
Speaker 1: it medieval, but like Swords and Armor world, because that
Speaker 1: means the Game of Thrones is what like twenty twenty
Speaker 1: eleven something like that, Right, you're exactly right. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was twenty eleven, so I mean, gosh, less than ten
Speaker 1: years later. You know.
Speaker 2: Wow, how I didn't know he wrote twenty fifth Hour.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at his stuff now.
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that either. Actually, what else X
Speaker 1: Men Origins Wolverine?
Speaker 2: I'd stay, Holy crap, that's literally the first movie I
Speaker 2: ever worked on. Wow, which nobody knows. There you go, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's Ryan Gosling and Naomi Watts. You McGregor, Mark Forster
Speaker 2: directed nobody movie.
Speaker 1: Somehow the movie Troy represents like the nexus of all
Speaker 1: of the various interactions you've had in Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Strangely does it's kind of.
Speaker 1: This shot right here, look at that. That's just a
Speaker 1: great POV. You you you put the the the helmet
Speaker 1: slightly in frame so it looks like you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's simple. You just you have a
Speaker 1: little bit of the nose guard in front of the camera.
Speaker 1: You have you have mental house hitting the camera. It's
Speaker 1: just great. It's just a clever little, you know, uh
Speaker 1: way of putting us in in the moment. You know.
Speaker 2: You know, I I gotta gotta say, like, as I
Speaker 2: was watching it and I was the longer version, I
Speaker 2: was thinking, like, this is a good movie, but I
Speaker 2: don't know that it's like a super dynamically directed movie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like a little bit more straightforward, you know, like a
Speaker 2: great TV series, Yeah than something like a Gladiator or whatever. However,
Speaker 2: this fight, yes, just showing pairs being dominated like this guy,
Speaker 2: like yes, put us directly into Paris's POV and seeing
Speaker 2: this huge, hulking guy.
Speaker 1: Just wep West obliterating.
Speaker 2: Him, like yeah, it's it really made me feel like
Speaker 2: how like terrified I would be and like outmatched.
Speaker 1: So a couple points. First of all, he took that
Speaker 1: gash on the leg, he should be one hundred percent
Speaker 1: dead very shortly after. Yeah, this fight, right, think about
Speaker 1: how dirty that sort is, right, I was thinking about
Speaker 1: that right the other I was thinking about how earlier
Speaker 1: Peter O'Toole gives him the sword. He's like, fight with
Speaker 1: this sword, and I'm like, well, maybe that's the problem, right,
Speaker 1: that's not the sword he's used to. No, that's true.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Look at this so pathetic. He's
Speaker 1: like clinging to Hector's legs. Yeah, And so Orlando Bloom's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, man, you know what
Speaker 1: I get it.
Speaker 2: I get if you're like the handsome guy, you know,
Speaker 2: and you're you're in Pirates and you're like the cool
Speaker 2: guy everybody, you know, the guy of the moment. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you don't want to play this like save me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. Although I will say dramatically it's great.
Speaker 1: Oh it is. I mean well, I mean it really
Speaker 1: it underscores Hector's heroism, right, He's like he's going to
Speaker 1: protect his brother. Yeah. I think that again, Like I
Speaker 1: think the movie sort of shaves some of the nuance
Speaker 1: off of Mental House, because I don't think he's entirely
Speaker 1: unreasonable to be like, hey, don't take my wife, you know,
Speaker 1: right right, I think I think he's not quite as
Speaker 1: nuanced in this film. But it's such a great performance
Speaker 1: by by Brenon Gleeson, who he's such a great man.
Speaker 1: I you know, we've talked before about Banshe's of ensuring
Speaker 1: oh so good in that movie. He's fantastic in that,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I was reading differences between theatrical director's cut.
Speaker 1: A lot of the.
Speaker 2: Violence was toned down, Yeah, because yeah, I was a
Speaker 2: little surprised. I mean it's like like spears through faces,
Speaker 2: explosions of blood, and now I'm realizing that I have
Speaker 2: not been seeing that in this version, you know. And
Speaker 2: it's funny because I don't like love violence necessarily, but
Speaker 2: I was kind of appreciating it because this this type
Speaker 2: of war with spears and shields and swords, like it's brutal,
Speaker 2: Like it's not cool, it's not pleasant, Like it's really
Speaker 2: brutal and awful and something you don't want to be
Speaker 2: a part of. And so seeing that extra blood and gnarliness.
Speaker 2: I felt like sold it. Well yeah, yeah, well what we.
Speaker 1: Saw during during this period was a de emphasis on
Speaker 1: blood and gore and this type of thing. Interesting, right,
Speaker 1: because because I feel like Brave Heart gets you there,
Speaker 1: good lord, it's like mallets on heads and water balloons
Speaker 1: of blood just block. Yeah. Yeah, but but well, I
Speaker 1: mean I don't know, gladiators fairly violent, right it is, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, but I think this was trying to get
Speaker 1: some of that Lord of the Rings audience. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's a great observation. Yeah right, Yeah, Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings is a little bit more like I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: the fights are the fights, but they're they're relatively antiseptic
Speaker 1: compared to like Rave Heart, for example.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I brutal for a PG thirteen, but certainly not
Speaker 2: R rated.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but I mean, you know one thing you
Speaker 1: have to say, I mean, this movie is a lot
Speaker 1: sexier than than Hollywood lately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot more undraped flesh.
Speaker 2: It's certainly in the director's cut. Yeah, I'm noticing, but
Speaker 2: even in this version, well in this version too, But no,
Speaker 2: that is a good point. That is a good point.
Speaker 2: But I the director's cut. It's interesting because this is
Speaker 2: an R rated movie. You can show whatever you want.
Speaker 2: But I noticed that staging is a little different in
Speaker 2: this version, like less nudity, overt nudity, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see, this is fight between Ajax and Hector. I
Speaker 1: really like, right again, Hector is not a demi god,
Speaker 1: but he holds his own you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I liked his advice to Paris, where he's like, just,
Speaker 2: you know, keep ducking out of the way and let
Speaker 2: him swing and he'll tire himself.
Speaker 1: And stupid idiot didn't do that. Yeah, he kept engaging
Speaker 1: with them like a freaking moron. Yeah, stupid Paris.
Speaker 2: If I've learned anything from Mike Tyson's punch Out, there
Speaker 2: are certain opponents you just have to keep ducking, let
Speaker 2: them tire themselves out, wait till they turn purple, and
Speaker 2: then punch away.
Speaker 1: That's good advice. Oh man, I'm so glad I wasn't
Speaker 1: alive during this time. Right. He imagined you and I
Speaker 1: on the front lines, Like, what are you doing here, Zachy,
Speaker 1: We were not made for these times. You would just
Speaker 1: hear me going in the distance. I'm running, just running
Speaker 1: from one end of the battlefield to the other.
Speaker 2: I see running in circles. Oh man, that shot is amazing.
Speaker 1: Look at that. I mean you feel the ferocity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just the spears and the shield.
Speaker 2: It looks dangerous even for the actors, all this clash
Speaker 2: of pointy things.
Speaker 1: Any Sorry, what were you saying? No? I well, I
Speaker 1: think in terms of the story, I love how Achilles
Speaker 1: is sitting it out. You know, he's yes, he's like,
Speaker 1: this isn't my fight, you know, yeah, And and you know,
Speaker 1: I mean this is like the tragedy of the story
Speaker 1: is if the Trojans would have taken their their w
Speaker 1: and been happy with it. Mm hmm, right, the city
Speaker 1: would have stood, you know. Yep.
Speaker 2: Oh man, Yeah, it try to be crazy at the
Speaker 2: end because I was thinking the same thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously I know this story, but when you see this
Speaker 2: mysterious thing on the beach, my first thought was burn it.
Speaker 2: And Paris even says that, but we know how it goes.
Speaker 1: His one useful contribution to this whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: and actually even earlier than that, right, because because the
Speaker 1: Trojans extract a victory here and then they're like, we
Speaker 1: have to push our advantage, so let's attack their boats.
Speaker 1: And whatnot, right right, right right, and and you know
Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, it gets to something fundamental, which
Speaker 1: is that that human arrogance doesn't matter what flag you
Speaker 1: stand for. Arrogance is is international.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And and there's there's I think that by virtue. This
Speaker 1: this is me looking at it from from Peterson's perspective
Speaker 1: and saying, well, when you remove the gods from the story,
Speaker 1: then the onus and the humiliation is put on on
Speaker 1: on the men, on the people. You know, you you
Speaker 1: can't pawn it off and say, oh, well this is
Speaker 1: you know, Zeus did this. This is just men being
Speaker 1: stupid men. And certainly that's that's more within our realm
Speaker 1: of experience, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, my my other title a series of escalating
Speaker 2: bad decisions. Yeah, I mean seriously, And it's a bummer
Speaker 2: to watch, but you can also sort of shake your
Speaker 2: head knowingly at it and just be like humans.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah really.
Speaker 2: Or history Yeah, oh man, I was thinking of this too,
Speaker 2: like what a I did, Like that where he's like,
Speaker 2: you know, let them collect their dead, and it's like
Speaker 2: would they let would they give us the I forget
Speaker 2: what he says.
Speaker 1: He says it much more poetically? Would they do the
Speaker 1: same for us? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I was also thinking the pire budget on this movie.
Speaker 2: It's pretty high. There's a lot of pires in this movie.
Speaker 1: Now, I should say, in terms of historical accuracy, I
Speaker 1: think the pires are probably fine. But like putting the
Speaker 1: coins on the eyes, I don't think coins existed as
Speaker 1: as a currency at that time.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I mean I know that as a thing, right,
Speaker 2: like for the ferrymen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that came later. Oh fascinating. Okay, I
Speaker 1: didn't know, right, because you're you're looking at primarily like
Speaker 1: a barter based economy. Sure. Interesting, But I think the
Speaker 1: the you know, the way the ritualization of the dead
Speaker 1: and how that's this thing that connects these people. I
Speaker 1: think that's interesting in terms of how we connect back
Speaker 1: to Hector being returned to the Trojans, you know. And
Speaker 1: it is one of these things where where we watch
Speaker 1: it now and it's like, what are you all fighting
Speaker 1: about anyway? Jeeves? You know, at least in the film,
Speaker 1: it's ostensibly about Helen, but it's actually about about Agamemnon
Speaker 1: wanting to increase the size of his empire. And you're like, man,
Speaker 1: things don't change you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, right, it's interesting that she's like with him, yeah,
Speaker 2: through and through here, you know, like she's not turned off.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think that's the struggle that the film had.
Speaker 1: Is that again in the story, he Parish is rescued
Speaker 1: by Aphrodite and and so she's like, well this guy
Speaker 1: isn't much of a guy. Uh, And so that is
Speaker 1: over basically, And I think the movie needed us to
Speaker 1: still care because there's still you know, an hour and
Speaker 1: a half left, right right, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Orlando Bloom interesting, interesting guy. You know he worked with
Speaker 2: the excuse me, Eric Banna earlier in Black hawk Down.
Speaker 1: That's right, they were in that together. I mean, this
Speaker 1: really was their decade, you know. Black hawk Down was
Speaker 1: that oh one? I think? Right? Yeah? Wow, that that too.
Speaker 1: That was a real bumper crop of of of early
Speaker 1: aughts actors, right, Ian McGregor. Who else is in that? Man,
Speaker 1: it's been a minute. I'd be curious to you watched
Speaker 1: the party? I feel like Tom Hardy, isn't.
Speaker 2: That that feels right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Black hawk Down?
Speaker 2: I just remember being really grizzly, and.
Speaker 1: I've only seen it the one time, to be honest. Same, Yeah,
Speaker 1: who we got? Who we got? Uh?
Speaker 2: Tom Sizemore, you McGregor, Josh Hartnett, There you go, William Fickner,
Speaker 2: uh reluctant President and Independence Day too. Look it up people.
Speaker 2: I never said his name, right because I don't say
Speaker 2: it out loud often.
Speaker 1: Ian Griffad Joan Griffith. There you go.
Speaker 2: Apologies to Johan mister fantastic yep, Jason Isaacs, Yeah, Ridley Scott.
Speaker 1: See, this is one of the few scenes that really
Speaker 1: gives us a window into Odysseus, right and and and
Speaker 1: I think Odysseus is is kind of the conscience of
Speaker 1: the piece. Yeah. Yeah, So it's a tough one, right
Speaker 1: because because he is a tertiary character in the Iliad.
Speaker 1: But I do wish we got more of him.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, not knowing this story so well
Speaker 2: and knowing about to watch the Odyssey, I did think
Speaker 2: it was interesting. I'm like, oh, I'm watching part of
Speaker 2: the story from a different a.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, you.
Speaker 2: Know, so it'll be interesting then to I don't know,
Speaker 2: watch that.
Speaker 1: There was a there was a mini series of the
Speaker 1: Odyssey which I don't know if you said, has Armanda
Speaker 1: Sante as Odysseus. No, that was in the in the
Speaker 1: late nineties. That was when you know, like I remember
Speaker 1: Gulliver's Travels, I do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like an NBC thing, right, that's right, Merlin.
Speaker 2: Wasn't that a thing?
Speaker 1: That was another one? Yeah? So during that spell they
Speaker 1: cranked out The Odyssey as well.
Speaker 2: Wow, so big budget network TV movies.
Speaker 1: Wow, And that was pretty good from what I remember. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: now this this love story is kind of kind of
Speaker 1: manufactured for for the but basically they took like three
Speaker 1: different characters and merged them into.
Speaker 2: Bresais Oh interesting, Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because because there's Cassandra, who is the sister of
Speaker 1: Hector and Paris, who's not even in this, right, she's
Speaker 1: not in this at all. So she's been cursed by
Speaker 1: the gods with with foresight, right, so she has predicted
Speaker 1: that the fall of Troy. That's the curse of Cassandra, right,
Speaker 1: is that you know the future, but nobody listens. Right.
Speaker 1: And then there's a character called chris Aus who is
Speaker 1: a priestess of Apollo and right, so, so Brisius is
Speaker 1: in the story, but it's but they just merged her
Speaker 1: with these three other ones. M I think just for
Speaker 1: this again, if if you're removing the gods. Then then
Speaker 1: foresight doesn't really make sense, right, So in essence, she
Speaker 1: is playing that role where like, oh, you know, try
Speaker 1: trying to speak for her city and what will happen
Speaker 1: to it, and without without it being explicitly for telling
Speaker 1: the future.
Speaker 2: And I think they do a pretty good job with
Speaker 2: her being someone who comes to understand Achilles as a person,
Speaker 2: a complicated person. But she also never turns on her
Speaker 2: home either, like she's there's a tug of war happening
Speaker 2: with her, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think Achilles is the one who goes
Speaker 1: on the emotional journey. Yeah, but again it's like, well
Speaker 1: it's because he looks.
Speaker 2: Like that, Like it helps. I'm sure it helps. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you can sort of understand whether it's Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 2: or I don't know, but like the way that she
Speaker 2: falls for him, like I believe. But then when it
Speaker 2: comes down to like he's going to go kill Hector
Speaker 2: and she's like, that's my cousin, you psycho, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, it's not like she's like, no, I
Speaker 2: love you, don't do this. It's like, hey, that's my family, idiot,
Speaker 2: don't do that, right. I feel like it the balance
Speaker 2: worked for tracks, and then when she gets on the horse,
Speaker 2: you know, with her father or uncle or whatever, like
Speaker 2: I believe that she'd be like, yeah, you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think in that moment, I mean, the
Speaker 1: mere fact that Achilles lets her go is like the yes,
Speaker 1: that's the you know, the beauty and the beast moment,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, this hideous beast Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I wouldn't have bought if she was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm staying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right exactly. Yeah. But but the fact that
Speaker 1: he lets her go is what makes her mourn when
Speaker 1: he dies, right exactly. Yeah. I think this is all
Speaker 1: handled really well. Yeah. See I think that, like we said,
Speaker 1: like at the start of the picture, Achilles, I mean
Speaker 1: he's just like shitty to a little kid, right right right,
Speaker 1: It's like a man, I couldn't do this. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: thats why nobody's gonna remember who you are, right right right,
Speaker 1: and then he kicks him in the balls and rides off.
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, but like, yeah, see, look at that.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of a lot of nudity for a
Speaker 1: movie like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is stuff that streamers do now.
Speaker 2: Movies don't do this as much, That's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Brad Pitt's like, well all them chicken breasts, Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: might as well. Well I'm not hiding this. I'm not
Speaker 1: hiding this. But shoot, what was I saying? Totally lost
Speaker 1: my train of thought? Yeah, yeah about the boy that
Speaker 1: he kicked in the balls? After he kicks the boy
Speaker 1: in the balls? No, So the reason he's he's fighting,
Speaker 1: you know, Odysseus is like, oh, you know, they'll they'll
Speaker 1: like sing songs about you, like he's doing it for
Speaker 1: the glory, for legacy. Yeah, you know. And and I
Speaker 1: think that in and of itself is fascinating because like,
Speaker 1: what what an empty life that is? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what his mother tells him, right,
Speaker 2: like you can you could have a family, and you
Speaker 2: could live a very happy life, but no one will
Speaker 2: know your name, or you could go to war, probably die,
Speaker 2: and everyone will know who you were years from now.
Speaker 1: This, I mean this, this gets to a conversation you
Speaker 1: and I have had before where you know, you look
Speaker 1: at just the sweep of history and whatever and you
Speaker 1: kind of say, you know what, I'm glad I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be mentioned in any history books. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not something I need to worry about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a lot of reasons, Like one, I just
Speaker 2: to what end, you know, yeah, I don't care, but
Speaker 2: also like and then to be twisted you know at
Speaker 2: some point who knows, who knows what they would do
Speaker 2: with my name eventually.
Speaker 1: Well, and and just to live with that as your
Speaker 1: overarching purpose, like oh, my legacy, legacy, legacy, And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, your your your life is your legacy at
Speaker 1: the end of it, you know, and it'll if you
Speaker 1: do good work, those works will outlive you. And then
Speaker 1: you know, eventually that'll fade away too, because all things do,
Speaker 1: and that's it. And you know there's something comforting about that,
Speaker 1: I suppose. Yeah, yeah, do the best with what you
Speaker 1: actually get to enjoy yourself. Yeah, you know. So so
Speaker 1: I mean that we we see the emptiness and Achilles, right,
Speaker 1: So I think that's where BRESAEI is sort of points
Speaker 1: the way towards a life he might have had, you know. Yep. See,
Speaker 1: like this is a great scene right here that that
Speaker 1: humanizes Achilles because you realize, well, Odysseus is a true
Speaker 1: friend to him. And Odysseus is interesting because he's like
Speaker 1: the nexus between Agamemnon and Achilles, right, Achilles only in
Speaker 1: the fight because Odysseus asked him to. Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: see it like, well, Odysseus is not like Agamemnon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he just says it right here, of all
Speaker 2: the kings, I respect you the most.
Speaker 1: Right you have to serve in order to lead, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I I think that, you know, just as we're
Speaker 1: talking about the Odyssey, right, I think that that the
Speaker 1: the events of the Odyssey are the torment Odysseus suffers
Speaker 1: for his role in the sacking of Troy, which just
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one thing. Watching this makes me very
Speaker 1: excited to see essentially the story pick up, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: By the way, so okay, so we haven't talked about
Speaker 1: Patrick Cliss at all in the story. So so a
Speaker 1: lot of people say, oh, Patrick Cliss and Achilles aren't
Speaker 1: cousins their lovers.
Speaker 2: Okay, and from the text or something like from the
Speaker 2: original story.
Speaker 1: Well, see, I mean there's just so many different ways
Speaker 1: of reading it because there is no one original story. Right,
Speaker 1: So my understanding is, well, they are cousins, but they're equals,
Speaker 1: they're buddies, So you can read into it that that
Speaker 1: they're lovers. I mean, but that's like anything you know,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's like, you know, oh, Steve Rogers
Speaker 1: and Bucky are lovers, you know what I mean? Sure, sure, sure,
Speaker 1: like like you can read into it. Yeah, but ship,
Speaker 1: there's shipping going on. But my sense is that they're
Speaker 1: they're just they're they're buddies. They are related. But but
Speaker 1: it's not like a like, oh, you're my cousin, I
Speaker 1: have to protect you type thing. It's just his buddy.
Speaker 1: And so Hector when Hector uh kills Patrickless, it's just
Speaker 1: he just wants revenge for his buddy who died, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's it's not even so much about like, oh,
Speaker 1: Hector thought he was Achilles or whatever, that that's something
Speaker 1: the movie invented. Wait, what was invented that that Hector
Speaker 1: thought he was fighting Achilles?
Speaker 2: So what's the in the original story he knows that
Speaker 2: in the.
Speaker 1: Original story, Yeah, it's just Achilles is like, no, man, y'all, y'all,
Speaker 1: y'all fight, I'm not fighting, and Patrick's is like, fine,
Speaker 1: I'll fight, and he takes Achilles' armor. Everybody knows it's
Speaker 1: it's it's Patrickless right, because because when you think about it,
Speaker 1: like they met, they met on the battlefield, they met
Speaker 1: and fought on the battlefield. So what does Hector need
Speaker 1: to be ashamed of? M M. It doesn't matter if
Speaker 1: it's if it's Patrick Less or Achilles the man squared
Speaker 1: up with a sword and he fought him, right, right,
Speaker 1: it's not like you know what I mean, it's not.
Speaker 2: I mean that, yes, And that was what was bothering
Speaker 2: me in this version. Although I think it's fine as
Speaker 2: a story, but it was just annoying me that Achilles
Speaker 2: was so angry at Hector, and it's like.
Speaker 1: I was supposed to do like you know, so yeah.
Speaker 2: And but but I think to me that was what
Speaker 2: made the story so effective, was like this is all pointless, right,
Speaker 2: It's just people killing and then begets begets killing, begets killing,
Speaker 2: begets killing.
Speaker 1: You know, it just never ends. Yeah, I mean you're
Speaker 1: living in a world of war where the only glory
Speaker 1: you have is conquest or killing, and and you know
Speaker 1: eventually it's just a zero sum game, right, and that's
Speaker 1: you know, for Achilles, his glory. The only path laid
Speaker 1: out for him is to kill until he is killed.
Speaker 1: So who cares about the glory, right you know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, something about just the how upsetting it
Speaker 2: all was kind of worked for me because I felt
Speaker 2: like that just fit the theme of the movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think it works in the film, but yeah,
Speaker 1: definitely if you take a step back, would you're like, well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it feels undercooked or just like someone
Speaker 2: not thinking clearly because they just like to kill, you know.
Speaker 1: Like it it's not like Patrickliss, you know, was stepping
Speaker 1: up behind Hector and Hector doesn't even you know, without
Speaker 1: even realizing it kills him and he was you know,
Speaker 1: like it was no. This was in a battle scenario
Speaker 1: and Hector one fair and square. So it's almost I
Speaker 1: mean in the film, it's it's almost like Achilles is
Speaker 1: more upset or equally upset that how dare you think
Speaker 1: you could defeat me?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm oh yeah yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah. By
Speaker 2: the way, this is awesome.
Speaker 1: It's great.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny when the archers were shooting those
Speaker 2: flaming arrows and they were hitting the sands, like what's
Speaker 2: your what's the what's the game here? You know, and
Speaker 2: he got these rolling balls.
Speaker 1: I was like, ah, I got it. There you go
Speaker 1: but this looks.
Speaker 2: Epic and it's difficult, but.
Speaker 1: But I love look at the look on Hector's face,
Speaker 1: right he he doesn't want this. Yeah, right, and this,
Speaker 1: you know, this gets to you know, you have the priests.
Speaker 1: We're like no, no, no, we gotta oh, we gotta,
Speaker 1: we gotta go. We got to go after them. And
Speaker 1: it's like, guys, they were gonna leave. Mm hmm, you know,
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like like we're saying, and I guess that's
Speaker 2: kind of the theme. It's just it's never gonna end.
Speaker 2: One thing will lead to another somehow.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing, right, It is like, I mean, again,
Speaker 1: the events in this film are obviously made up, but again,
Speaker 1: there was a Troy. There is no longer a Troy,
Speaker 1: but no one knows what happened there. And isn't that
Speaker 1: like the ultimate Testament? You know right right? People live,
Speaker 1: people died, the city fell. We don't know anything, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember a couple of years ago I went to
Speaker 1: at the at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.
Speaker 1: They had an exhibit about POMPEII mm hm. And you
Speaker 1: know people, people's people are frozen in ash. Yeah, their
Speaker 1: bodies are preserve they're preserved in ash. And there was
Speaker 1: a display of somebody somebody's remains and it said it
Speaker 1: said something to the effect that we believe this was
Speaker 1: an important person. And I was telling my kids, I
Speaker 1: was like, but we don't know, Like, isn't that like
Speaker 1: we whoever that person was, everything they achieved, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter all we're doing at this moment in time. We're
Speaker 1: guessing that maybe this person was important. We don't even
Speaker 1: know their name, right, you know, Yeah, anyway, sorry.
Speaker 2: No, no, but it's interesting, and you think, I mean,
Speaker 2: if that person wasn't a good person, like maybe if
Speaker 2: someone just defended them or looked at them the wrong.
Speaker 1: Way, they had that person killed.
Speaker 2: And it's like that person died because they offended this
Speaker 2: important person that we don't even know who the heck
Speaker 2: they are now. Yeah, and it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: very weird.
Speaker 1: I mean that's the like, I think that's the value
Speaker 1: of telling this story and doing a quote unquote grounded
Speaker 1: version is it allows you to hopefully, you know, contextualize
Speaker 1: it with just the sweep of human.
Speaker 2: History and just yeah, see how tragic it all is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because how much blood has been spilled over land,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, so this here, that that is
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, right.
Speaker 1: They're very clever about that.
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, but he's got the helmet on
Speaker 2: so he can't exactly fully see the face. But yeah,
Speaker 2: seeing Hector fight him, we as an audience believe he's
Speaker 2: fighting Brad Pitt exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: See so again, like contextually, it's like, well, what's what
Speaker 1: heck you're doing wrong here? Right?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, what's he supposed to do? It's
Speaker 2: shocking though that that throat cut right there. Interesting by
Speaker 2: the way, too, as this scene started the day for
Speaker 2: night kind of thing, just calming out the craft. Yeah,
Speaker 2: kind of playing with the color, a little surreal feeling.
Speaker 1: But it works, you know, yeah, totally. Oh Patrick Cliss,
Speaker 1: you dumb idiot, Patrick Cliss in Paris, equally stupid. Yep.
Speaker 2: It's funny too, because I mean everyone's playing this very
Speaker 2: straight and horrified. But it would be kind of interesting
Speaker 2: if everyone on the Hector's side, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: tugged at their collars like whooo.
Speaker 1: I'm holding his hand? See again, like the we're meant
Speaker 1: to view this as some great tragedy and again, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, dude. I think Hector was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent above board here totally.
Speaker 2: And also I liked, yes, that he is experiencing this
Speaker 2: as a tragedy, holding the victim's hand. This is awful
Speaker 2: for it. It's not like oh pity, right, you know.
Speaker 1: But I like that here where Hector goes to Odysese,
Speaker 1: he's like, enough for one day. Yeah, yeah, I just agree,
Speaker 1: that's it, We're done.
Speaker 2: It's kind of funny, isn't it looking at this shot
Speaker 2: with the different soldiers from each side like yep, okay, okay,
Speaker 2: excuse me, excuse me, Like war's over for the day,
Speaker 2: well for the day, we'll see tomorrow, yeah, which really
Speaker 2: just you know, showcases the futility of it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's what he's saying, right, we were gonna leave. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean this all that's that's the tragedy, right,
Speaker 1: is that like the Trojan elders were like, hey, we're winning,
Speaker 1: let's like kill him. It's like, why don't you just
Speaker 1: let him go? Yeah? You know, yeah, he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's got to deliver the bad news. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Actually, I was worried in another movie this guy would
Speaker 2: get killed just for delivering I know you feel that
Speaker 2: tension in delivering the bad news to a killer.
Speaker 1: He's gonna do like a Bob Gun situation. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. But that's like we're supposed to like Achilles, right,
Speaker 1: that's the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's complicated. I can
Speaker 1: change him Brian exactly exactly. Yeah. Who is this guy?
Speaker 2: He's a good actor, right, he looks very familiar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a good actor too. That's the character's name,
Speaker 1: that would help. Yeah, I'm just quickly scrolling. At some point,
Speaker 1: all the Greek names just kind of blend together. That
Speaker 1: a MICUs, I believe you. Yeah, no, I made that up.
Speaker 1: That's not anyway. He just looks familiar, micas. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go with that decla MICUs Papadopolis.
Speaker 2: That's from Webster mister Polis.
Speaker 1: Uh George, mm hmm. So the characters Uteros.
Speaker 2: In Uteros my favorite Nirvana album.
Speaker 1: Let's see who's the Oh? I see okay? Vincent Vincent Reagan, Reagan. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where have I seen him? Though? Three hundred Okay found
Speaker 1: his lane the Clash of the Titans. He certainly has
Speaker 1: definitely found his lane.
Speaker 2: Aquaman, the Lost Kingdom. Wow, okay, yeah he's a soldier.
Speaker 1: Well, good for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah great, see yeah anyway, yep, kind of a dark
Speaker 2: moment him strangling rose Burn there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how are we supposed to feel about that?
Speaker 2: I'm going with not great.
Speaker 1: Okay, just checking. There's a gut check moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it just shows, you know, there's there's a
Speaker 2: darkness in him.
Speaker 1: So Saffron Burrows, you know, before this, I think what
Speaker 1: I knew her best from was a deep blue sea.
Speaker 2: Whoa did not make that connection?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's just reflexively, I'm like, that's the lady
Speaker 1: who made those charks smart stupid. We don't ruin everything, lady.
Speaker 2: I wait, I was expecting you. You used to say,
Speaker 2: way to ruin everything, ruin her? Yes, I've thought about
Speaker 2: that that back.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this here where Hector is walking her through
Speaker 1: like the evacuation plan. Yes, I mean, this is this
Speaker 1: is him telling like, you know, if if the Trojans
Speaker 1: come in, excuse me, if the Greeks come in, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll throw the babies or the parapets and they'll take
Speaker 1: you as a slave. Well that is what happens, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how Andromachi she's you know, that's how
Speaker 1: she dies. So it's like horrible what happens, you know,
Speaker 1: So I don't fault the film to be like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's we need like we can't end that way, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting okay, And I'm glad, Yeah, I mean we
Speaker 2: get enough horror in that moment.
Speaker 1: Right, because because the the Iliad itself, like I said,
Speaker 1: it's only it's like a month in this ten year
Speaker 1: war and it and it it ends with the Iliad.
Speaker 1: Doesn't he an end with the horse going into the
Speaker 1: city walls, right, because I believe it ends with him
Speaker 1: returning the remains to Priam. Oh that's where the Iliad ends, right,
Speaker 1: But in the story, Achilles is dead well before the horse. Oh,
Speaker 1: like he he doesn't make it into the city, right,
Speaker 1: So it's it's interesting like again all the changes, right, yeah, interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like Agamemnon does not go into the city, Menelaus does.
Speaker 1: Menolaus is dead already obviously, But I think all this
Speaker 1: build up really works, right, I Mean it's Hector knows
Speaker 1: that that he's not going to make it out of
Speaker 1: this fight, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a moment coming up where he kisses his baby.
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, like I really felt gravity of
Speaker 2: this child, will not see me, will not have a father, yeah,
Speaker 2: this afternoon, you know.
Speaker 1: So in the in the story, ah, it's not quite.
Speaker 1: Hector isn't portrayed quite as quite as Stoic because Achilles
Speaker 1: shows up and and he chases Hector around the city
Speaker 1: three times before Hector finally.
Speaker 2: Really that's true, that's true, and then he like yeah, no, yeah, Well.
Speaker 1: What happens is that Hector is trying to hide from Achilles,
Speaker 1: and then one of the gods who's like on the
Speaker 1: side of the Greeks shows up and and presents himself
Speaker 1: in the form of one of one of Hector's compatriots. Okay,
Speaker 1: he's like, come on fighting, we'll do it together. And
Speaker 1: he's like all right, fine, and he goes to fight him.
Speaker 1: But it turns out like that that was just a mirage,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, a little different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very so. I think. I think obviously this movie
Speaker 1: like they made Paris way woosier, hmm, and they made
Speaker 1: Hector way stronger, fast, stronger of character.
Speaker 2: So they used the story basically as a launch pad
Speaker 2: and then thought, well what if we tried this and
Speaker 2: well then that would lead to this, and it's.
Speaker 1: Like anything, right, I mean it, it's like, that's that's
Speaker 1: the old. Like how many times do we watch movies
Speaker 1: that that have some source material and then they make
Speaker 1: cinematic changes and then you judge the changes as either
Speaker 1: good or bad. But it's an adaptation, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a it's not a translation. You know.
Speaker 2: It's kind of fascinating along those lines. I read that
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight Warner Brothers was looking to
Speaker 2: do a science fiction version.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Odyssey in Space.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I remember that from my days
Speaker 2: working at a studio Get out of here, and so
Speaker 2: I was like, I completely forgot about that. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that I remember that going around. Wow, And uh, I
Speaker 2: don't know why not at this point, you know, the
Speaker 2: story's been told so many times, like play with it,
Speaker 2: but I guess it has been played with. I mean
Speaker 2: right down to oh brother where art though?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, as if this recording still the best adaptation
Speaker 1: of the Odyssey, I.
Speaker 2: Need to rewatch that.
Speaker 1: Maybe that changes next week. I guess we'll find out. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: right man, the dread that's right, Like that's what I
Speaker 1: was admiring. You know, they really convey the sense of
Speaker 1: like fate is just coiling tighter and tighter here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's we can see the minutes on his clock, Yes,
Speaker 2: counting down.
Speaker 1: See that too, where the archers are about to unload
Speaker 1: on him. He's like, no, don't. I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Dude, I'm so glad you said that, because I thought
Speaker 2: that a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Would it be that bad? The dice that?
Speaker 2: And then also when he leaves and you know, we
Speaker 2: know things are gonna start, you know, riling up again, is.
Speaker 1: Like, maybe just just just shoot him? Just like, what's
Speaker 1: the worst that happens? They miss? Okay, you're no worse off.
Speaker 1: I mean, is there any honor in this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know, like you said, just doing you know, what
Speaker 2: was he supposed to do? Let the other guy kill him.
Speaker 1: That's right. I mean that gets to sort of the
Speaker 1: ephemeral nature of how do we even define what is
Speaker 1: and isn't honorable. Oh, it's more honorable if you look
Speaker 1: the guy in the face as you as you stab him,
Speaker 1: you know, like right right, I mean, let's take a
Speaker 1: step back and say this whole thing is barbaric.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah exactly, but yeah, like just the tragedy
Speaker 2: of this, like he's okay, sorry, dad's.
Speaker 1: He's making Yeah, yeah, but I love here where King
Speaker 1: Priam is like, you know, you're the You're the You're
Speaker 1: the best son I've ever had, no father's ever had,
Speaker 1: and parents is like, yeah, yeah, if I could have
Speaker 1: only one son, I'm so glad it's you, like you
Speaker 1: have two. And hey, by the way, this actor too,
Speaker 1: he's in Braveheart also, yeah, I remember him. He's he's
Speaker 1: Brendan Gleason's dad. Yeah, she'd be like, well about to die, idiot? Yeah, seriously,
Speaker 1: I mean moron.
Speaker 2: I actually was thinking that, Like he goes out still
Speaker 2: being very charitable and kind to his younger brother, who's
Speaker 2: really started this whole.
Speaker 1: Next time you're having sex with her, remember how I'm
Speaker 1: dead because of your right, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can imagine the cold version where
Speaker 2: it's like I hope she was worth it and then
Speaker 2: just walk past him. But you know him, he's actually nice,
Speaker 2: I know, but I mean this is terrible. He goodbye
Speaker 2: to his dad, go by to his brother, to his men,
Speaker 2: now to his wife, kisses his baby goodbye.
Speaker 1: It's just so it's really I know it's a lot,
Speaker 1: but you know what's funny is I mean you and
Speaker 1: I we were talking just last week about the unending
Speaker 1: sacrifice of President Thomas J. Whitmore. Yeah, right, right, right, right, too, right,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, this is the good version right here, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point, all while we have Achilles,
Speaker 2: you know, like calling him out like that, his eventual
Speaker 2: doom literally yelling out.
Speaker 1: In the distance. Yeah. Yeah, I gotta say.
Speaker 2: Though, I don't really know the details of what we're
Speaker 2: missing from the director's cut, but this does move at
Speaker 2: a nice clip.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Yeah, it's it's mostly little bits
Speaker 1: and bobs here and there that just add character moments.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Like I said, more brisais more Paris and
Speaker 1: Helen and there's a there's a Hector and Andro Mocky
Speaker 1: say like, it's it's mostly like the talking bits, you know,
Speaker 1: mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And not it's not the bad version of this like
Speaker 2: we were talking about with Supergirl, where it feels like
Speaker 2: maybe there was a test audience and they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: we get bored here, or you know, we're not sure
Speaker 2: we're into this scene. So they're like, well, just cut,
Speaker 2: just keep cutting and make it faster, faster, faster, and
Speaker 2: then it doesn't even breathe anymore. That's right, Like this
Speaker 2: movie still feels like it's breathing, but it is moving.
Speaker 1: With urgency, right, I agree with that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That was a great shot by the way, too with
Speaker 2: Helen h you know, just sort.
Speaker 1: Of the sadness in her eyes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like she is the beginning of this Yeah,
Speaker 2: and she is gorgeous and there's a tragedy happening, and
Speaker 2: just that real wide shot of her standing there looking beautiful,
Speaker 2: but also there's sort of an aching to that shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then that shot too of Achilles out there, just
Speaker 2: a dot in the middle of the screen, just him.
Speaker 1: It's just him. I mean, I mean Peter O'Toole may
Speaker 1: have thought him a clown, but William Wolf King Peterson
Speaker 1: knew his way around a shot. Yeah. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: that There's there are no pacts between lions and men.
Speaker 1: That's that's like from the Iliad. Oh is it that line?
Speaker 1: I think it's a great line, right, because because Hector
Speaker 1: is so completely outmatched. Yeah, and it certainly it makes
Speaker 1: sense if Achilles is a demi god, right, Like this
Speaker 1: is this is not in any way a fair fight, right.
Speaker 2: I do like that he like kind of stands up
Speaker 2: for himself here a little bit.
Speaker 1: He's like, what was I supposed to do? Bro?
Speaker 2: I did think this was so dark where he's like,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna take out your eyes and your tongue, like
Speaker 2: so when you're in the underworld, you're gonna be walking
Speaker 2: around deaf and dumb, you know. And I was like
Speaker 2: that if you like really believe that, like that is
Speaker 2: that is cold man?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: By the way, watching this fight, which I think is great,
Speaker 2: I'm really glad they didn't do what was very popular
Speaker 2: at the time and do that shutter speed thing. Oh right,
Speaker 2: like the speed ramping, yeah, or no, not the stuttery thing.
Speaker 2: Oh that Saving Private Ryan did first?
Speaker 1: Oh sure, And I was thinking, like Mummy returns, you
Speaker 1: know at the end of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is what it is. We talked
Speaker 2: about that another day, but like you know, Saving Private
Speaker 2: Irodn did it, and it was the first time I
Speaker 2: had seen it, and it was effective because they used
Speaker 2: it for a reason. But then I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people associated that with well that's what cool action
Speaker 2: looks like now because Steven Spielberg did it and in
Speaker 2: saving Private Ryan, but then it just became well no,
Speaker 2: now it just looks kind of jittery and obnoxious. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and this I can see what's going on,
Speaker 2: and I appreciate that. I'm glad they didn't give into
Speaker 2: the trend at the moment.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that both Eric bann and Brad Pitt
Speaker 1: agreed to do it for real and not have stunt doubles.
Speaker 1: You can.
Speaker 2: It's super effective seeing their faces do this and impressive.
Speaker 1: So they they made a gentleman's agreement with each other
Speaker 1: that for every every serious hit they would owe the
Speaker 1: other one hundred dollars, right, and for any any smaller
Speaker 1: hits fifty bucks. Yep, and Brad Pitt ended up seven
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars poorer after all this, yep, which
Speaker 1: it occurs to me. He was getting seventeen million. So like,
Speaker 1: I wonder if he just went out of his way
Speaker 1: to be a dick to Eric Bannet, because he's like, whatever, yeah,
Speaker 1: just for fun, just for funzies. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And apparently Banna didn't op it anything, I.
Speaker 1: Know, because because he needed the money, he would again
Speaker 1: seventeen million for this, see right there when when Extor
Speaker 1: falls and then and then Andrew Macky just like she
Speaker 1: knows right, And it's one thing to have it in
Speaker 1: your mind what's about to happen. It's another thing to
Speaker 1: witness it happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, watching it like Spectators.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrifing. So yes. In the director's cut, all
Speaker 1: of this, it unfolds with with the the elf whin
Speaker 1: Planet of the Apes theme playing yes yeah, which again
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe not that many people watch that movie.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that music pretty well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it plays very differently with the with the Horner music.
Speaker 1: I'm wishing.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna watch as soon as we're done. I'm going
Speaker 2: to watch this scene with because I love James Horner
Speaker 2: first of all, but I want to hear the difference.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know if it's better or worse.
Speaker 1: It's just different, you know. Yeah, yep, O'Toole's face, I
Speaker 1: know this is it.
Speaker 2: He fought valiantly.
Speaker 1: That's I mean. I remember watching this the first time,
Speaker 1: and like I said, it's like, you know, what has
Speaker 1: to happen because that's the story and it makes it.
Speaker 1: They they wring all the all the drama out of it,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. I also think the fact that Helen
Speaker 1: is embracing andromakey, like there isn't that tiny part of
Speaker 1: her that's like, well, thanks for nothing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know, you know, seriously, they have
Speaker 2: been very welcoming to her. And this is so cold too,
Speaker 2: tying up the body and dragging it behind on the chariot.
Speaker 1: And then we see Peter O'Toole overcome by the vapors.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I was thinking for him being so
Speaker 2: unhappy on set. He does a really good he drops
Speaker 2: and let his head, lets his head hit the hard floor.
Speaker 2: Is like, yeah, he's committed.
Speaker 1: That's I mean two by this stage of his career,
Speaker 1: I mean he passed away and twenty thirteen, I believe, so,
Speaker 1: I mean he was, he was in the twilight of
Speaker 1: his career, you know, And so I think, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a poor guy, you know, he just he just faints.
Speaker 1: Oh man, Pitt looking him in the eye too, dragging
Speaker 1: his boy behind him. I'm no expert, but it feels
Speaker 1: like dragging the corpse of a person he just killed
Speaker 1: behind your your your chariot.
Speaker 2: That's rude, not good sportsmanship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems rude to me. Yeah, well they actually
Speaker 1: cut out them. Oh yeah, you're right, they cut out
Speaker 1: the fainting.
Speaker 2: Interesting that's the most important part.
Speaker 1: Yeah, huh.
Speaker 2: I think that's really important actually, And why you would
Speaker 2: understand even more that he would risk going into the
Speaker 2: camp to go collect his son's by Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, interesting, just how affected he is damn well.
Speaker 1: I mean, especially because that was the one request that
Speaker 1: Hector made, right that no matter who wins, we allow
Speaker 1: our people to honor, you know, to do their death rituals.
Speaker 1: And Achilles very so knowing that was what Hector wanted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean one presumes they all want that because they're warriors,
Speaker 1: they get it. But I mean the fact that he
Speaker 1: had articulated that and he's like, yeah, piss on your rituals, right. See.
Speaker 1: I think that that the Achilles arc, right. I think
Speaker 1: that's that's the what makes him complex, you know. And
Speaker 1: I would think that the story the film added complexity
Speaker 1: to his character. In order to make it, we have
Speaker 1: to somehow be okay with what happened with the fight
Speaker 1: with Hector, while still we have I have to feel
Speaker 1: something when he dies, you know, So I understand the
Speaker 1: mechanics I don't know if they hundred percent get us there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I was feeling
Speaker 2: I was having complicated feelings at the end of this movie,
Speaker 2: thinking like, I don't am I supposed to be on
Speaker 2: anyone's side here or is this just me observing you know,
Speaker 2: omnitiently sort of the tragedy of humanity or something?
Speaker 1: You know. Well, I think structurally we're supposed to feel
Speaker 1: more for the Trojans, right, I think, right, I mean
Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, because they're the ones who have
Speaker 1: this inflicted upon them. However, they're the ones who started this.
Speaker 2: Also, uh huh exactly, That's what I mean, right, Like
Speaker 2: there is that Yeah, yeah, like they're they're all kind
Speaker 2: of doing, you know, bad things, So I don't but
Speaker 2: but yeah, watching the sacking of True is just horrifying.
Speaker 1: It really is. So yeah, this, this, right is a
Speaker 1: terrific scene. Yes, this is like you watch this and
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, Peter O'Toole hated every second of being
Speaker 1: in this movie.
Speaker 2: My man showed up, wouldn't wouldn't have known it?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And also like the way that that Brad Pitt's playing
Speaker 2: this too, where he's uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, you know, he
Speaker 2: is actually experiencing some feelings here. Yeah, compassion, I think
Speaker 2: for this guy. But it's also like the way that
Speaker 2: O'Toole is sort of humbling himself is very uncomfortable to Achilles.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's sort of you know, because because
Speaker 1: you know, pream mentions that he he knew his father, right,
Speaker 1: but he didn't have he didn't he didn't live to
Speaker 1: see what what he has seen, which is his own
Speaker 1: sun dying right, that speaks to a love that Achilles
Speaker 1: never had. He never had a paternal figure in his
Speaker 1: life in that way, and so I think that that
Speaker 1: explains his discomfort. You know, I don't know how I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to to react here, you know, because you see
Speaker 1: Priam was very affectionate to his sons. He embraced them,
Speaker 1: he kissed them, you know, and and that that seems
Speaker 1: like something that that Achilles never experienced. Yeah. I like
Speaker 1: this where he's Achilles is like, he killed my cousin,
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, how many cousins have you killed? Yeah, fathers, husbands, fathers. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: there's lucky, lucky enough, lucky to not live long enough
Speaker 1: to his to see his son fall. Yeah right, and
Speaker 1: you see the look on Achilles's face right there. You know.
Speaker 1: I love where he says I loved him from the
Speaker 1: moment he opened his eyes to the moment you closed them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good line. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, I just I feel like Brad Pitt is a
Speaker 2: really interesting actor. Where he's he's very you know, popular known, right,
Speaker 2: But like I do feel like he has a lane
Speaker 2: or a range, and when he's in that range, he
Speaker 2: can be on fire. But sometimes when he's pushed, his
Speaker 2: limits reveal themselves a bit.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: But I think in this scene where he's actually really
Speaker 2: acting and reacting, I think he's doing a really great job.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But and but to your point, I mean this
Speaker 1: like he didn't do very many costume pictures, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Other than this, I think, right, I can't
Speaker 1: think of anything off the top of my head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this, this was sort of unexplored territory for him,
Speaker 1: and so maybe that explains why he wasn't wasn't really
Speaker 1: feeling it, hmm, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But just yeah, I just for the thing that he's
Speaker 2: complaining about where this feels more like a blockbuster here's
Speaker 2: the Hero movie. Then I finish back on that, I
Speaker 2: would agree, and I would show him this scene, you know,
Speaker 2: which I think he's doing great job in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think this scene is what buys us
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. Yes, Like, to whatever extent
Speaker 1: we feel sad that Achilles dies, it's because of what
Speaker 1: what this scene gives us, you know.
Speaker 2: Yep, it's really brutal. When we see.
Speaker 1: Hector's like sand covered face, blood matted hair, this too,
Speaker 1: This is this is a nice moment. Yes, I would
Speaker 1: have liked a greater like what what brings on the tears? Hmm?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: You know, yes, I completely agree. I think I just
Speaker 2: was intrigued that we saw them. I don't quite know
Speaker 2: what it all is, but I like it.
Speaker 1: I almost like if we started to suddenly start to
Speaker 1: see him break with pre m mmmmmm, just like very subtly,
Speaker 1: you know, like just you know, his his lip is
Speaker 1: twitching a little, you.
Speaker 2: Know, which would make him uncomfortable and maybe make him
Speaker 2: leave the tent.
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, his son was the best
Speaker 1: I fought and I killed his ass. Anyway, here's his
Speaker 1: body see him twelve days.
Speaker 2: You know what's funny?
Speaker 1: This is?
Speaker 2: I'm really loving this even on silent Yeah, and I'm
Speaker 2: thinking I remember, as I was watching this again, the
Speaker 2: extent version, the first half, I was feeling like some
Speaker 2: of this feels like, you know, like it's it's good,
Speaker 2: but I'm not like really in it. And it's the
Speaker 2: second half where I was like, oh man, this movie
Speaker 2: is really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And again for fans of this movie, I think
Speaker 2: the director's cut is worth watching to get the extra
Speaker 2: stuff in, the extra texture. But I do kind of
Speaker 2: like this Titaned version, and I do feel like it's
Speaker 2: second half is pretty strong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's well that itself is fascinating because like
Speaker 1: we've lost one of our leads and we've still got
Speaker 1: you know, a half hour to go. Yeah yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: basically with forty minutes left, we lose one of the
Speaker 1: centers of gravity. Yeah. So that's like the necklace that
Speaker 1: his mother gave him. Yeah, I think it is interesting, right, like, like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a sop to the fact that
Speaker 1: he doesn't buy the religious stuff m but she does.
Speaker 1: So he's like respecting her beliefs, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because he was questioning them to her face earlier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. I didn't even think about
Speaker 1: it talking back.
Speaker 2: By the way, just we were talking about it a
Speaker 2: minute ago, by James Horner's score, so I guess. Originally,
Speaker 2: Gabrielle Jared spent over a year scoring this movie, and
Speaker 2: apparently test audiences didn't react to it or it sounded
Speaker 2: too old fashioned. I don't wonder what that means, like
Speaker 2: too big, maybe you know, like old school been her
Speaker 2: ten Commandments or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe it just didn't fit the tone of this. So
Speaker 2: then yeah, they got Horner to come in and he
Speaker 2: did this in less than six weeks scored the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and but to fill in the gaps on the director's cut,
Speaker 2: not only did they use Planet of the Apes, but
Speaker 2: they also use stuff from Count of Monte.
Speaker 1: Cristo Starship Troopers. Ye yep.
Speaker 2: I was looking at the credits and I saw a
Speaker 2: like bug attack. I was like, what, but kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: I find this funny here where Odysseus is like, yes,
Speaker 1: dude's the guy carving a horse. He's like hmm, you know,
Speaker 1: because I'm just like, I think it'd be funny, like like,
Speaker 1: you know, if he hears somebody being like, hey, won't
Speaker 1: you crawl up that horse's ass, and he's like, crawl
Speaker 1: up the horse ass, horses ass. You know, it's just
Speaker 1: very arbitrary, like it would make more sense if it's
Speaker 1: like he sees like something going into a shell or something,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean absolutely the point isn't the
Speaker 1: horse right? Right? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a guy carving a wooden horse toy
Speaker 2: for probably his boy back home. I totally agree, Like
Speaker 2: seeing someone hide inside something would.
Speaker 1: That would make more sense? Right?
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is a total you know, fantastic for
Speaker 2: we were fantastic out there today.
Speaker 1: Say that again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly, That's totally what that moment is, dude.
Speaker 1: But it does get to I I like, I mean,
Speaker 1: the the the horse plan originates with Odyssees, which is
Speaker 1: what that is part of the story. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: this is clever, you know, and so he's able to
Speaker 1: think of the the these plans to outsmart you know,
Speaker 1: for example, the cyclopes and and you know in the
Speaker 1: Odyssey et cetera. You know, is that the plural of
Speaker 1: cyclops cyclopes? Yeah? I didn't know that now, you know.
Speaker 1: Impress your friends at a party. Hey, everybody, everybody listen up,
Speaker 1: list everybody is you tap your everybody.
Speaker 2: Imagine there's a much is cyclops in the room.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't call them psyclops.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd be wrong.
Speaker 1: No, shut up, shut up. Imagine the shut up is
Speaker 1: there's a Brian. I think you've had enough syclops. Hey wait,
Speaker 1: hey cyclopop man oh man? Yeah, anyway, that's what it deseased.
Speaker 2: Did what inspires him in the original poem?
Speaker 1: Do you know or remember oh to come up with
Speaker 1: the horse? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Is there like an inspiration or is it just an
Speaker 2: idea he has?
Speaker 1: I don't expect him to crawl up a horse's ass,
Speaker 1: of course. Of course, I actually don't know, but but
Speaker 1: I will say so. So the Iliad ends here, m
Speaker 1: it doesn't even end with the war ending, Okay, But
Speaker 1: you know there are other like Homer told the Iliad
Speaker 1: and the Odyssey, but there's other stories set, you know,
Speaker 1: that sort of expanded out. You know, you have like
Speaker 1: the the the the Odyssey EU. You know, like there's
Speaker 1: a variety of stories that fill in all these gaps.
Speaker 1: But the important thing is that by this point in
Speaker 1: the story, Achilles is already dead. Mmmm. Oh right, so
Speaker 1: Paris kills Achilles well before the horse happens.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, because with an assist from the gods. I'm imagining,
Speaker 2: say again, with an assist from the gods, because otherwise
Speaker 2: how would he do that?
Speaker 1: Well it yeah, uh the uh you know, we we
Speaker 1: see the factually. That's a good question. I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean it's it's we see it earlier in the film
Speaker 1: with the arrows where he's shooting. He's good at shooting arrows.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, so they did show that, so so
Speaker 2: oh well, yes, no, he does it. You're right, he
Speaker 2: does it in this movie and I did buy it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know if I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's like known that that's his weak spot though, you know, hmmm.
Speaker 1: But regardless, so Achilles already dead, so that that's why
Speaker 1: they come up with the horse gambit, because they don't
Speaker 1: have their greatest warrior. I kind of like that. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I almost so so this so so Achilles is not
Speaker 1: present for the sacking of Troy uh and and Agamemnon
Speaker 1: is not is not there, he doesn't go into the city.
Speaker 2: I can understand why they did that tweak for this telling. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like you said, one of our major players is already
Speaker 2: off the board.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, so so since the movie killed off Menelaus.
Speaker 1: They give Agamemnon that because it's Menelaus. He goes into
Speaker 1: the city, he reclaims Helen. What were they thinking? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so here here's my thought. It's like, okay, you want
Speaker 1: to bring it into the city. First of all, Oh
Speaker 1: the gods. The gods will be upset if we burn it. Okay,
Speaker 1: don't burn it, just leave it at the beach.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like why bring it into the city, right, Although
Speaker 2: I mean, I of course we critique, but I get it.
Speaker 1: It is kind of a brilliant conceit. Sure it is.
Speaker 1: But also, yeah, you're right, why not just like give
Speaker 1: it a once over? You know? Like it?
Speaker 2: It's that's what I love. I've only seen the previous
Speaker 2: so far of the Odyssey, but when they're actually stabbing
Speaker 2: into it and you see the swords actually nicking the
Speaker 2: you know, the men's shoulders, I was like, that's that's great.
Speaker 2: That that makes sense that they would test it a
Speaker 2: little bit before.
Speaker 1: They brought it in. That's what I'm saying, you know.
Speaker 2: But I do love that Paris has his one good ideas,
Speaker 2: what movie I think we should burn it?
Speaker 1: Burn it? The gods will be displeased those priests. Nothing
Speaker 1: but bad news man.
Speaker 2: Seriously, yeah, responsible for a lot of bad outcomes.
Speaker 1: This this guy. I felt bad for this guy.
Speaker 2: He could have been like the hero they would have
Speaker 2: told his name for for generations to come.
Speaker 1: The guy he could have been Paul Revere.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly exactly. But this, I mean, this is
Speaker 2: an all time great story idea. I mean, you got
Speaker 2: them in hiding in this horse mysterious horse thing and
Speaker 2: breaking out of it and taking over the city, letting
Speaker 2: everyone in.
Speaker 1: It's great. And that's where we get beware of Greeks
Speaker 1: bearing gifts yep or romans depending on the telling.
Speaker 2: But this is this is just I love the way
Speaker 2: this is filmed.
Speaker 1: Also.
Speaker 2: I mean it's just very like the city empty, quiet,
Speaker 2: everyone's spilling out of the horse, climbing down with ropes.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, bad things. So a killing I mean
Speaker 1: his specific goal. He doesn't care about Troy. He just
Speaker 1: wants to make sure that Brisseus is safe. But what
Speaker 1: I like is that the movie doesn't in any way
Speaker 1: frame what they what the Greeks are doing as some
Speaker 1: heroic thing.
Speaker 2: See that's the thing with me not knowing the story
Speaker 2: so well, because I imagine I'm going to watch The
Speaker 2: Odyssey and be on Matt Damon's side, you know, or
Speaker 2: hoping rooting for him or whatever. But watching this, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is awful. They are like raping
Speaker 2: and pillaging and murdering babies, and I'm like, all the
Speaker 2: bad stuff. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, so I was a
Speaker 2: little surprised to be feeling that way during this iconic moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, props to the filmmakers for not
Speaker 1: pulling their punches in that way, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Actually, now I'm curious to watch this theatrical version and
Speaker 2: see how much they toned it down.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was.
Speaker 2: It was rough, it was Yeah, it was intense. Actually,
Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense knowing it came from Benioff.
Speaker 1: A good point. He's he's his stuff is pretty intense
Speaker 1: and unrelenting, and I'd say he stuck the landing with
Speaker 1: this one better than what I hear about the Game
Speaker 1: of that right right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny because he tweaked that material too, because
Speaker 2: he doesn't have an ending, yeah, or Martin still hasn't
Speaker 2: written it.
Speaker 1: And that's where that kind of fell apart from my understanding. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it started becoming very clear that without the R. Martin
Speaker 1: yeah framework.
Speaker 2: Once he went off book because there was no book.
Speaker 1: That fascinates me because I'm like, Bro had like a
Speaker 1: long time to finish whatever he was gonna do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wonder if he just I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's he's written other things, and these other
Speaker 2: shows have been created and he's producing them, but just
Speaker 2: can't bring himself to finish that story. And I wonder
Speaker 2: this point if it's just he's got the yips or something.
Speaker 1: At this point, I don't think he's ever going to
Speaker 1: finish it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably not. Yeah, And how could it ever live
Speaker 2: up to you know what people have been waiting for
Speaker 2: years and years and years and years for and demanding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now it needs to not only wrap up
Speaker 1: the series of books, but it needs to be better
Speaker 1: than the show. Yeah, right, right, which everyone apparently hated. Right,
Speaker 1: like a whole new sort of pressure he didn't ask for.
Speaker 1: That's a good point, even though, isn't the ending like
Speaker 1: he had told them the ending? Right? Oh?
Speaker 2: That's true. Well, as far as I understand it, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think they had an outline or an idea, right.
Speaker 2: It's interesting this guy who's like, hey, I have a son,
Speaker 2: and he's like all right, but I'm like, what about
Speaker 2: the other guy?
Speaker 1: No, we should have stayed on him, be like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: that worked. Yeah, that's holy shit. It worked. And then
Speaker 1: he like takes off his helmet. It worked, and then
Speaker 1: like an arrow shoots him in the head. Yes from
Speaker 1: someone else? Yeah, yeah, that's good. I like your take.
Speaker 2: I want your director's cut all this. Man, this looks
Speaker 2: amazing and dangerous.
Speaker 1: You build those sets and then you burn them down. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I read that they endured a hurricane, yeah, at some point,
Speaker 2: and it makes you think, and I know Star Wars
Speaker 2: famously had that happened to them too, And it's just
Speaker 2: you think about all these practical sets and just the
Speaker 2: damage they may have endured and having to rebuild it.
Speaker 2: And what a nightmare, what a what a horrifying image
Speaker 2: singor city burn?
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's really I mean, look at that.
Speaker 1: Look at how he's playing it. Peter o'tool. Yeah that
Speaker 1: look between this and Supergirl, you know, quality of the role.
Speaker 1: Notwithstanding he showed up. You see why he was as
Speaker 1: well regarded as he was because they may have done
Speaker 1: some some you know, Michael Caine in Jaws, the Revenge
Speaker 1: style projects, but he always showed up. Yep.
Speaker 2: This is a crazy shot too, where she jumps out
Speaker 2: of the way of the horse. As far as I
Speaker 2: can tell, it looks like she really did that.
Speaker 1: So after this, Wolfgang Peterson did Poseidon, which I've never seen.
Speaker 1: I never saw that either. That was two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: I believe, and then that was it. Man, hmm, like
Speaker 1: he did like one other thing in Germany, I believe.
Speaker 1: H But like it's you know, I'm fascinated by that
Speaker 1: because the guy got on base almost every time, and
Speaker 1: yet it's just like he had one megaflop Poseidon and
Speaker 1: then that was it for Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. That reminds me just this era
Speaker 2: when I was working at that studio. Sometimes they would
Speaker 2: make lists of directors so they'd have a script and
Speaker 2: they'd be like, come up with a list of directors
Speaker 2: who would be interesting for this, And I remember putting
Speaker 2: Joe Johnston on the list, and because you know Rock Tier,
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, all that stuff. So I was like,
Speaker 2: he'd be a fantastic action director. And I remember they
Speaker 2: called him out specifically and they're like, Joe Johnston like
Speaker 2: as if, why would we go to that guy? You know,
Speaker 2: fascinating And he was dismissed, and then years later he
Speaker 2: is tapped to do Captain America, right, and now he's
Speaker 2: back on the list and everyone's like inspired, you know.
Speaker 2: So it's the fickle, the fickleness, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: So I wonder if with Wolfgang it's like he did
Speaker 2: Poseidon it was a flop. Stop putting him on lists.
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean he still doesn't have anything to give. But
Speaker 2: for some reason he's not on the list now. And
Speaker 2: then if you were given an opportunity, maybe out of
Speaker 2: left field, and he knocked it out of the park,
Speaker 2: everyone would be like, Wolfgang, where have you been?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Huh, I wish he'd have that chance. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think about that with John McTiernan.
Speaker 1: Oh sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2: A shame we haven't gotten any more movies from that guy.
Speaker 1: Well, he I think after jail, he pretty much I
Speaker 1: think I'm done making movies. Fair that Kai bash is
Speaker 1: your career a little bit.
Speaker 2: But man, what an I there you go? But you
Speaker 2: know what, actually Rollerball, right, and that is the movie
Speaker 2: that he got basically taken down with.
Speaker 1: Because of I know, God, but rollerball was a disaster.
Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, so I looked it up, and indeed
Speaker 1: Apollo guided Paris's arrow towards Achilles' heel.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, okay, he did have an assist.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and however, by this by this point in
Speaker 1: the story, Paris himself is killed by the sacking of Troy.
Speaker 1: Before the sacking of Troy, so I mean, bar the
Speaker 1: war itself. According to the story, it was ten years
Speaker 1: m and rather than do that, they just, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: got to be It's got for Brian Cox that it's
Speaker 1: got to be a cool moment, career moment he gets
Speaker 1: to kill Peter O'Toole, you know, right, Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: can they they shrunk it down to you know, several
Speaker 1: weeks or whatever it is. M hmm. But like that's
Speaker 1: you know, the Iliad itself is it's not the story
Speaker 1: of the war. It's just it's the the battle between
Speaker 1: Actor and Achilles, and it's that four weeks. So with
Speaker 1: with Agamemnon, yeah, he in the in the story, he
Speaker 1: dies after returning to Greece because his wife is pissed
Speaker 1: at him for having sacrificed their daughter before going to war.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: It's like an offering.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, okay, and plus he's been sleeping around so
Speaker 1: she she So basically they just give that business to
Speaker 1: Brisius here. Yeah, I like it satisfying in this film,
Speaker 1: it makes more sense giving it to her. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I don't know why she had that knife up her sleeve,
Speaker 2: but it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: It was handy. It was handy. I had a thought
Speaker 1: and I lost it. Oh there, he goes ooh yeah,
Speaker 1: in the director's cut, you you see you see the
Speaker 1: head detached from the body. I'm pretty sure. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it's like.
Speaker 2: Shocking. Yeah, that's I totally forgot about that, and kind
Speaker 2: of an impressive effect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it worked.
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, so there we go.
Speaker 1: I kind of like how when he gets shot through
Speaker 1: the heel, I mean, the moment has it's almost like,
Speaker 1: if you want to read it that way, it's like,
Speaker 1: that's the spell is broken in terms of his vulnerability,
Speaker 1: you know, yep, and at that point he's a mortal
Speaker 1: yeah right, because like the way he reacts when he
Speaker 1: gets shot through the heel. I'm no expert, but it
Speaker 1: feels like a very dramatic reaction, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like he's been he snapped out of something.
Speaker 1: When people shoot arrows through my heels, I just know
Speaker 1: I don't react that way last time that happened to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like I like this here where he says in
Speaker 1: a lifetime of war or you know you were the
Speaker 1: only piece I had, or something to that effect. It's
Speaker 1: a good lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like this. This landed for me.
Speaker 2: It's complicated her relationship, but they did have a connection.
Speaker 1: Wait what she changed him? Yeah, he's in a lifetime
Speaker 1: of war? Come on, there we go. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do wonder if Paris is like.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah, yeast is what's happening here? What are
Speaker 1: we doing?
Speaker 2: I got him? You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh I remember what I was gonna say. And I
Speaker 2: don't mean to just sound like I'm repeating myself, but
Speaker 2: like in movies now, a lot of the actually I'll
Speaker 2: speak to John Carter actually, which I was watching last night,
Speaker 2: like it's populated with a bunch of Martians. Obviously those
Speaker 2: have to be computer generated, but when they're like climbing
Speaker 2: over each other and fighting and people are punching them
Speaker 2: as good as they look at times, there's just this
Speaker 2: like tangibility that's missing. I just feel like I'm watching
Speaker 2: a bunch of animated things scramble around the screen, Whereas
Speaker 2: when I look at this and I'm seeing a bunch
Speaker 2: of people in costumes bumping into each other and slamming
Speaker 2: into walls and knocking things over, there's a real brutality
Speaker 2: and you know, visceral feeling where it's like, wow, that
Speaker 2: is dangerous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: And so I just wish movies would go the.
Speaker 1: Extra mile and.
Speaker 2: Not put as many sort of uh, you know, generated
Speaker 2: things in there, because I just don't feel like it
Speaker 2: has the same effect.
Speaker 1: I think with something like John Carter, audiences can at
Speaker 1: least make some accommodation for the fact that it's it's
Speaker 1: pure fantasy.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and they're green and they're tall and they look weird,
Speaker 2: and you know, it is what it is.
Speaker 1: But right, and I think, to some ex sense like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well what else are you gonna do? Right? I think
Speaker 1: when we have a film like this that is meant
Speaker 1: to exist in something resembling our world, those shortcuts become
Speaker 1: more obvious. Yeah, exactly, exactly right. So I think I'm
Speaker 1: just paying my respects here because it's impressive. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I applaud the craft. Yeah, It's a nice
Speaker 1: moment for Odysseus right there too. Mm hmm. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: had a connection, I'm telling you. I mean Sean Bean.
Speaker 1: It's like he doesn't have a primary role in this film,
Speaker 1: but he makes a meal of what he gets. Definitely.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was talking earlier about like this trend
Speaker 1: that we saw into the two thousands of this type
Speaker 1: of film, And you know, I think it was a
Speaker 1: year after this you had that King Arthur film that
Speaker 1: Anton Fuquad directed, Remember that, Yeah, yeah, with Clive b
Speaker 1: Owen and Nightly Care Knightley. Yeah, and then and then
Speaker 1: you had Robin Hood, the Ridley Scott Robin Hood twenty ten.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's almost like the Bookends. We got Prince
Speaker 1: of Thieves here and we got Ridley Scott's Robin Hood there.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, right right, speaking of Bookends, what I'm missing
Speaker 2: is the dog from the director's cut. Yes, remember it
Speaker 2: opens with a dog on the beach and then it closes.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the actual lash last shot
Speaker 2: of the movie, but there's like a dog wandering the
Speaker 2: ditch again. Yeah, it licks the faces of the people
Speaker 2: that look like they have.
Speaker 1: The plague, that's right. That's how we know that they're
Speaker 1: they're not really so thoughts on Troy. Oh yeah, the
Speaker 1: director's cut also doesn't have the Josh Grobin song at
Speaker 1: the end.
Speaker 2: M yeah, wait, how does it end the Director's cut?
Speaker 1: Is that the last moment? It's it's what we see here,
Speaker 1: Odysseus says, you know, you know, I existed in a
Speaker 1: time with men like Achilles and Hector something to that,
Speaker 1: but but this is it. You know. I think it's good.
Speaker 2: On Rotten Tomatoes, it has a fifty three percent, and
Speaker 2: I don't think that's quite right.
Speaker 1: I'd nudget a tad higher.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd put it like in the upper seventies. Maybe
Speaker 2: like give it like a like an eighty.
Speaker 1: I mean, and we say this knowing that Rotten Tomatoes
Speaker 1: metrics are skewed anyway, So.
Speaker 2: It's oh, totally totally.
Speaker 1: I just but yeah, certainly, as as a film, I'd
Speaker 1: give it like a solid B, which is what Cinema
Speaker 1: Score gave it. Oh is that right? Audience is using
Speaker 1: Cinema Score gave it a B. Yeah, I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: director's cut, I'd probably kick it up to like a
Speaker 1: B plus. I think I think the character bits that
Speaker 1: they add overall, I think improve the experience. But I
Speaker 1: had not seen this, as I said, in more than
Speaker 1: twenty years, and I was like, oh, it's good. I agree.
Speaker 2: I don't feel like it reaches the highs and the
Speaker 2: nuances and the you know, of something like a Gladiator. Yep,
Speaker 2: just in its action and its characters and its drama.
Speaker 2: But I still think it's darn effective.
Speaker 1: By the way. Props to props to my man Bob Ringwood,
Speaker 1: costume designer he did Batman eighty nine June eighty four,
Speaker 1: the guy, it's a great costume designer. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, yeah, I mean it's not Gladiator.
Speaker 1: I think that movie was was sort of lightning in
Speaker 1: a bottle totally, and nor is it Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but clearly this emerged from the same
Speaker 1: queas and art that had both of those in it,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: I mean it plays like the type of movie that
Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and four, where, you know,
Speaker 2: to Brad Pitt's point, I think he's right, it does
Speaker 2: play a bit more like a blockbuster, Yeah, leads into
Speaker 2: more of the blockbuster feeling than something like Gladiator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I also feel like it has.
Speaker 2: More moments that he than he's giving it credit for.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, so yeah, so that's why Yeah, besh territory for me.
Speaker 2: But I mean that in a positive way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and certainly fun to revisit on the eve of
Speaker 1: the Odyssey. You know, it's like, what what does it
Speaker 1: look like to revisit this world a quarter century later,
Speaker 1: almost in a or twenty we know, twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: years later? My gosh, jesu. You know, like I think
Speaker 1: that says something like the stories end up being revisited
Speaker 1: in and again because there's just some something, there's something
Speaker 1: compelling about it, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting to see them retold through the
Speaker 2: lens of their moments. You know, this is the two
Speaker 2: thousand and four take on Troy. Then we're going to
Speaker 2: get our twenty twenty six take on it through the
Speaker 2: big filmmaker of our time, and then we'll get another one,
Speaker 2: you know, twenty thirty years from now.
Speaker 1: And hopefully we'll be around to see that one too. Definitely.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I do want to say this
Speaker 2: because you called up Bob Ringwood. The only nomination this
Speaker 2: movie got at the Academy Awards for that year was
Speaker 2: for best costume Design.
Speaker 1: Richly deserved. Yep, great, I mean the production design, all
Speaker 1: of it's it's quite quite substantial. But hey, let us
Speaker 1: know your thoughts on Troy. Do you like the theatrical cut?
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Speaker 1: We'd be very grateful. And hey, if you're looking for
Speaker 1: me online, you can find me on social media at
Speaker 1: Zaki's Corner. That's zaki S Corner. Can also find my
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Speaker 1: What about You, Brian, You.
Speaker 2: Can find episodes I've written of Puppy Dog Pals and
Speaker 2: Young Jedi Adventures streaming on dizzey Plus.
Speaker 1: Well with that on behalf of my partner Brian Hall.
Speaker 1: My name is Zachie Hassan and This has been our
Speaker 1: movie film commentary track for Troy. We'll catch you next time.
Speaker 1: Thanks everybody,