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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime.

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Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.

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Speaker 5: Joined today by author Lewis Byrd here to talk to

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us about The Pale Blue Eye, an amazing book that

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is soon to be hitting theaters as a movie of

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the same name.

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Speaker 6: Lou, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 7: So great to be here. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: We've had this interesting discussion about whether Lewis Bayard would

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let us call him, Lou, and he said yes, which

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we think is a big stepping stone towards the kind

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of relationship we'd like.

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Speaker 7: That intimacy, full on intimacy from the start. Guys, here

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we are.

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Speaker 5: All access, So Lou, go ahead and start off by

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telling us a little bit about your personal and professional background.

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Speaker 8: Oh dear, that's a long and tangled and sorted story.

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But I am a writer of novels. I'm a novelist,

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and I mostly write historical novels. I've written ten so far,

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eight of them have been historical, and then some of

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those historical. You're in the direction of mystery and thriller

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and horror and all those gothic directions that bring me

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here now to your doorsteps.

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Speaker 5: And my favorite piece of Lou trivia is that you

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once were on Jeopardy.

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Speaker 6: Isn't that right?

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Speaker 8: I am a one time Jeopardy champion. That is something

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that will take to me.

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Speaker 2: I do know that. I'm even more impressed.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, thank you, thank you, Bill, thank you for being

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impressed by that. I'm a little I'm embarrassed though, that

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I lost the second one on Final Jeopardy. The answer

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was bell Morale. So every time I watched the crown.

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Speaker 7: I just feel a stab.

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Speaker 8: I just feel a stab of regret about missing that,

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because yeah, otherwise I would have won, for sure, and

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then I would have been I would have gone from

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there to being who knows, one hundred time champion.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might got to be on the show Moral Hurdle. Yeah, decades,

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decades as champ. People would have been sick of you

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by now.

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Speaker 7: It's like getting off. We're tired of him every night.

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Speaker 2: The guy's insufferable and he's won like a gad zillion dollars.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, my path?

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Speaker 2: Were you getting sandbag with the question about bellmral Did

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they ask the question in a weird way, which is

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why you didn't get it?

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Speaker 8: They asked it in a weird way, but somebody got it,

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it just wasn't me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: In fact, she was the third place going into Final

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Jeopardy and at the air right. Yeah, it was one

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of those stories that actually is at thee or you

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love Oh wait, the underdog wins.

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Speaker 2: Wait she came from behind a head?

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Speaker 7: No stop?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think you'd never want to work that

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into a book?

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Speaker 7: Spific experience for sure, but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the short version? Of how you get on Jeopardy.

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Speaker 8: The short versions in those days. This is a while,

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this was sixteen years ago. But you take a test

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to take I guess it's an online test now, and

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then you're invited to come in for basically kind of

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audition where you stand up with a bunch of other

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people who pass the test, and you stand up and

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answer questions and a play round or a practice round.

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And I think they're just looking to see if don't

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fall apart in front of a camera. And then I

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got the call a few months later and then had

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to get myself out to California.

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Speaker 7: Know, they don't pay for your travel or your hotel.

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Speaker 8: Oh nice, Yeah, So I prevailed upon my publisher to

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I forget what I asked them to pay for, because

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it is either.

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Speaker 7: The air for or the hotel.

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Speaker 8: Because I said, if I can, I will promote the

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book which just came out, which was in fact The

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Pale Blue Live, which leases around to the topic of

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today's show. But it came this happened right when that

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book came out, and I thought, oh, this will be interesting.

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And then in fact, in the very first round, the

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Jeopardy round, there was a poke question which I successfully answered, Thank.

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Speaker 2: God, Yeah, really that would have been embarrassing. There we are,

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and are there clips somewhere on the internet that would

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show you on Jeopardy?

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Speaker 7: Why do you ask this? Bill was able to actually

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find this? Do you want to find?

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Speaker 2: This?

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Speaker 7: Stuff? Is archive?

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Speaker 8: This stuff is archived in places that I don't even

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know about, So I'm sure you could find it if

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you want to, if you have a lot of time

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on your hands, you could.

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Speaker 7: Look for this.

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Speaker 2: We pride ourselves in our research team, which is the

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two of us. I didn't mean that for that to

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sound all stock ration weird. Now that you we've decided

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to let me call you.

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Speaker 7: Lou, Yeah, the gates are open. Everything is free game, yeah,

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open gamey blue.

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Speaker 5: We did want to talk to you about the Pale

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Blue Eye, not only because it's a wonderful book being

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involves Edgar Allen Poe and see it has a movie

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coming out here in just a very little bit. But

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I know we do have some listeners who probably are

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not familiar with Pale Blue Eyes. So can you give

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us like the five sentence summary of the Pill Blue.

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Speaker 7: Eye Elevator's speech?

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Speaker 8: Is this the elevator's speech carntment yeah, So The Pale

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The Pale Blue Eye is a Gothic mystery thriller set

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in West Point circa eighteen thirty, featuring a young Edgar

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om Poe, who was in fact a cadet at that time.

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So he becomes in effect a detective along with an

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older professional detective in solving a series of crimes that

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are taking place at West Point, involving the killing of

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cadets and the carving of hearts out of their So

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it's just a light, little holiday comedy really, Yeah, this

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is how I try to describe it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's holiday appropriate.

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Speaker 5: Just to make sure that we're clear on the line

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here between fact and fiction. To the best of your knowledge,

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was Edgar Allan Poe a detective in his spare time?

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Is this something that he did on the regular?

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Speaker 7: I don't think he was a detective at west Point.

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That was just my conceit really, because I decided I

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wanted to put Poe in the center of a mystery genre.

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Why because he was the creator of that genre. So

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I thought it would be fun to PLoP him in

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the middle of it and have him fend for himself

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as it were. So as casting around for a suitable

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place part in his life to explore. And I realized

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or remembered perhaps that he had been at West Point

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for six months before being court martial out, and I thought,

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would that'd be a fascinating place to have crimes to solve,

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and this would be a fascinating place to have in

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effect an Edger On Poe origin story, which is really

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what the book is, is about how.

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Speaker 8: Edgro and Poe became that guy, how he absorbed these

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various themes, and where these various stories came from the title,

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I should say, the Pale Blue Eye comes from The

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Telltale Heart. If you remember that story, it's about the

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narrator is this guy who decides conceives a pathological disgust

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for this old man, and specifically for the old man's

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pale blue eye, and that's what drives him to kill

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the old man, stuff him unto the floorboards, and then

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invite the police over so that he can gloat over

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this perfect crime, only to hear the heart of the

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old man beating underneath the floorboard. The Pale Blue Eye

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came straight from The Telltale Heart, and so much of

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Poe's work, his stories, both mystery stories and horror stories

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inform the book itself.

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Speaker 5: It's often been said that it was Edgar Allan Poe

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rather than Sir Arthur Kinnan Doyle, who's actually responsible for

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the invention of the detective genre as we know it today.

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Speaker 6: Can you talk a little bit about like how Poe

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contributed to the genre we understand it today.

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Speaker 8: Sure, Poe wrote the first detective stories in the language,

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in the English language, for sure, and I think Conan

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Doyle acknowledged that at some point you would have to

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ask mister Stasher about this, But I think Conan Doyl

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was very clear that Sherlock Holmes came out of CEO

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gust Dupin, who was the great detective hero of Poe's stories,

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beginning with the Murders and The Room Morgue, continuing through

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the Purloin Letter and the Mystery of Marie Roget these

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are really the first detective stories that we know of

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in the English language, So it's clear to me, and

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I think it's clear that it would have been clear

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to Doyle too that he got there first. And I

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think Poe's great innovation is great understanding, was that there's

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something just interesting about the act of solving a crime.

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The stories themselves, if you read them, are almost action free.

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All the crimes themselves happen off the page, and the action,

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if we can call it, that, is just this guy

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agus Dupin sitting in his chair in the folk Alexandra

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Maniparis looking at newspaper accounts and just figuring out who

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did it And was Poe's genius to really see that

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was dramatic enough in itself. He didn't need chases, he

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didn't need fights, he didn't need any violence.

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Speaker 7: He just knew that.

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Speaker 8: Just the watching a great mind apply itself to this

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particular problem was interesting in itself, and we see the

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results everywhere. It's impossible to overstate how influential he has been.

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Poe has been in our culture. He's so much a

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part of our culture that I don't think we always

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see him. He's hardwired into our DNA. But every time

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you see a mystery story, every time you see a

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horror story, garthic story, you're seeing a genre that he

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himself either created or definitively shaped. So really the book

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was my homage to Poe. That's how I conceived it

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from the very start.

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Speaker 2: So some of these conceits that get labeled on later,

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Like you're saying, the car chase or the physical confrontations

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or the all that stuff that kind of is a

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step away from this more kind of cerebral literally sitting

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in a chair discussing the details of a crime, sometimes

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a horrific crime, but in a real thoughtful way. And

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it's funny. Even as you were saying that, I was

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thinking about any number of modern era detectives in literature

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and film and television and so on, And there is

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a whole school of detectives that came along later that

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are in that sort of let me walk you through

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what I think happened analytical approach, which is much more

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Poe was that kind of approach that he was helping create.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I think Poe's approach sho it becomes the cozy

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detective story in some ways, that sense of Hercule Barrow,

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Miss Marple, Lord Peter Wimsey, very courteous and civil and

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they're never in danger really really, they're just brought in

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to apply their formidable brains to a problem. And that

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was really I think that the thing that interested Poe

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about crime itself was just how do we solve it?

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He was being into puzzles he was big into codes, decoding,

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cracking code. He just loved an intellectual challenge, and he

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grasps that this would be a particularly interesting one.

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Speaker 5: If I'm remembering it right, Didn't he call his crime

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solving process ratiocination?

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Speaker 7: Am I? Yeah, I've never even have pronounced that, Christian

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is it ratchioscination ratios.

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Speaker 5: I've never feel like it's ratiocination, I guess say, but

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I'm not sure.

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Speaker 6: I guess maybe we need to stand about that one.

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Speaker 2: H Us out now define what that is.

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Speaker 8: It's just basically the act of using your brain to

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figure something out. It's just a fancy word for just

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using your brain. And that's what goes on in his stories,

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and that's what makes them interesting, is just seeing a

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brain at work.

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Speaker 7: I gus I said.

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Speaker 8: I think that was one of his real insights, is

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that there's drama just in that.

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Speaker 6: I feel like it's almost a precursor to modern day profiling,

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like a really early version of it.

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Speaker 7: Good co.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, something that just popped out of my head while

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we were talking about some of those great characters and

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that cerebral detective approach. For some reason, Peter Fawk jumped

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into my head with.

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Speaker 8: Oh yes, Colombo. Now, perfect example, perfect example, Bill.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he turns the stylistic thing on its head. In

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other words, a lot of those detectives like Poio and others,

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even Arthur Conan, Doyle, Sherlock Holmes, they had a lot

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of style clothes in terms of clothing and how they

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carried themselves. And Peter Fowk turned all that stuff on

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its head with the Columbo character. But the thoughtful walk

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me through this kind of approach. He's very much following

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in those footsteps as well.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, And in that case, and this was the genius

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of this show.

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Speaker 7: They showed you the crime up front.

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Speaker 2: Yes you knew.

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Speaker 8: Exactly who had been murdered by whom, Why you knew

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exactly how the crime happened, and the drama And you're right,

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this is so close to Poe is just watching a

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really intelligent guy figure it out.

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Speaker 7: He's going to do it by the end of the show.

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He's going to figure it out. But you're just.

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Speaker 8: Wondering how will he apply his formidable but of course

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underrated intellect to this problem. And it's exactly the same

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as what's going on in Poe's original stories.

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Speaker 5: One of Poe's I think probably biggest conceits of all

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was the fact that he felt he could take his

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process and again, I really don't know if I'm saying

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that we're going to go with it, go with that.

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He took that and he tried to apply it to

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a modern day true crime case during his time period,

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and that's the Mary Rogers case. I know one of

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his stories is based on Mary Roger. Can you tell

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us a little bit about how Poe involved himself in

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that case? Again, knowing that is more Dan's.

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Speaker 7: Harry, so Dan, that is so Dan's Tash Hower.

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Speaker 8: He wrote a book called The Beautiful Cigar Girl about that.

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And this was a very notorious case in New York City.

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I think it was eighteen fifties.

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Speaker 9: This, yeah, yeah, okay, So what happened with this was

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a notorious case of a beautiful young woman murdered and

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they didn't have any immediate culprits.

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Speaker 8: Poe decided to turn this into his own guessing game,

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and he converted it into another dupant story. The Mystery

292
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of Marie Roget basically transmographied all the post the press

293
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coverage that was happening around Mary Rogers to a Parisian newspaper.

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He just did a very slight gallic transformation of the

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names and tried to come up with his own solution.

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It's interesting, and I think Dan's Stature will be the

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first to say this, it's his least successful dupant story.

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Speaker 7: And I think because he himself is too close to it,

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and he himself is trying to honor the very complicated

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details that were happening at the time.

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Speaker 8: But yes, he desperately was trying to solve that. He

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was the armchair detective in that one himself, and he

303
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did not solve it. I don't think it was ever

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solved that. Yeah, it's one of those unsolved mysteries. Dan

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00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,159
Stature was attracted to those ones.

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Speaker 7: His current one about Elliott Nass and the Torso murderer

307
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,759
in Cleveland another unsolved one or supposedly unsolved. Those are

308
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almost sometimes the ones that a writer clings to because

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there's possibility that you can be the one to finally

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solve it once and for alls.

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Speaker 8: Think of all the Black Jallia books that have been

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written for people, yeah to figure.

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Speaker 7: That or the Jack the Ripper, Right, So we're attracted

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as readers and writers, I think to the one the

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unsolved ones for sure.

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Speaker 2: And Dan admitted we interviewed him a couple of months

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ago and he admitted that he was hoping that he

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would be Yeah, his research would be the key to

319
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unlocking that case, because elliot Ness is a legendary figure

320
00:15:36,559 --> 00:15:39,879
in law enforcement and yet wasn't able to solve this

321
00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:42,799
horrible series of crimes. And I think we all have

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a little bit of that armchair detective in us where

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we think.

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Speaker 7: Oh, I think that's the appeal of true crime, isn't it?

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Isn't it.

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Speaker 8: It's the appeal is, oh, I'm going to solve this.

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I'm going to figure out whatever has eluded all.

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Speaker 7: These these minds, all these genius, these genius, all the police,

329
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all the other people.

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Speaker 8: I'm gonna I'm going to crack this last That's the

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intellectual appeal for people who haven't actually lost somebody to

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a true crime.

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Speaker 7: It's the same thing.

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Speaker 8: It's the peal of Okay, this is a problem that

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I will apply my formidable intellect to field a solution

336
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that has eluded everybody else.

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Speaker 2: And I'll figure it out. And people enjoy creating their

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00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:19,320
own theories, putting it out there and discussing it. I

339
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,200
was looking on social media today about the Delphi case,

340
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,320
and there's a lot of people who have a lot

341
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of theories, and it's funny that they are continuing, I'll say,

342
00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:34,080
to debate those theories even though a suspect has been arrested. Now,

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of course the question becomes was he involved? And then

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were these other potential suspects involved.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in case our listeners aren't aware, you and Dan

346
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are pretty good friends, and you guys actually have moved

347
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,440
in the same circles in terms of subject matter.

348
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Speaker 6: Who was writing about po first?

349
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Speaker 7: That's a really good question.

350
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Speaker 8: So yes, The Beautiful s Figar Girl came out the

351
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,600
same year as The Pale Blue Eye. Also that same

352
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:04,359
year book by Matthew Pearl called The Post Shadow, which

353
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was all about the mysteries running Poe's death, And none

354
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:09,839
of us was aware of each other coming into this.

355
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,559
So it's just one of those harmonic convergences that actually

356
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happens a lot, I think in the publishing world and

357
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also in the movie and TV world. There just is

358
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a weird kind of synchronicity that happens where two or

359
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,000
three different people happened to converge on the same subject.

360
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So I only met Dan because our books came out

361
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,160
the same time. I thought, let's just get together and

362
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,079
chat about this, and Matthew Pearl reached out to me

363
00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:35,559
as well around the same time he had written The

364
00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:38,279
Da Vinci Code, and so it was, and they're both

365
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,079
lovely guys.

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Speaker 7: So we wound up.

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Speaker 8: We called ourselves the Poe Boys or the Poe Boy Sandwich. Yes,

368
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,880
but that was just accident. That's just accident. But I

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think it also speaks to pose and during appeal. He's

370
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just an interesting guy that people always want to figure out.

371
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Speaker 7: Much like a prime itself. We always want to figure

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him out.

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Speaker 2: So when we turned to the Pale Blue Eye, how

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much of that is based in fact and how much

375
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is fictionalized?

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Speaker 7: I feel bad saying this in a true crime podcast.

377
00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:07,400
Speaker 2: Go right ahead.

378
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Speaker 8: The only true part was that edgron Poe was at

379
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West Point for six months. By the way, when I

380
00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,240
say edgron Poe, he really went by Edgar A. Poe

381
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through his life. There's only I think one time he

382
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wrote his name is Edgar A.

383
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Speaker 7: On Poe.

384
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Speaker 8: So it's interesting that that's how he's Anyway, he was

385
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,319
there for six months, but there were no crimes that

386
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,160
I know of that were committed in that time. I

387
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,599
think in the eighteen twenties. He was there from he

388
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,519
was there in eighteen thirty. But in the eighteen twenties

389
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,759
there was a cadet who was sentenced to death, but

390
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:40,599
not for killing anybody. Trying to remember why, but I

391
00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:43,240
think that sentence was commuted, so there were no deaths. No,

392
00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:45,480
that was just me deciding to throw some shit into

393
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,720
the game and make some trouble, make some trouble that

394
00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:51,359
Poe could helped to solve. And that's where that came from.

395
00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:56,599
Speaker 2: It's mostly made up then, yeah, yes, but.

396
00:18:56,839 --> 00:18:58,200
Speaker 7: There are real life characters in there.

397
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Speaker 8: Sylvanus there who is the superinten of West Point, Ethan

398
00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:02,319
Allen Hitchcock.

399
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 7: I couldn't believe that the.

400
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,799
Speaker 8: Commandant of West Point had the last name of Hitchcock,

401
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,440
but yet there was. Yeah, it was like a gift

402
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,319
from God that name. And there is a Benny Haven's

403
00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:14,960
tattern that the cadets would escape to drink. They weren't

404
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,680
supposed to leave the reservation, the reserve as they called it,

405
00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,359
mosts or drink, but they would sometimes break out and

406
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,920
go to Benny Havens. There are songs that immortalized it.

407
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:26,000
There are these bits and pieces along the way that

408
00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:28,400
are based in reality, but the crimes itself are my

409
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,920
own invention, inspired of course by mister Poe.

410
00:19:31,519 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 5: I know that when you get into the process for

411
00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:36,519
writing this book you do have to do a certain

412
00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:39,640
amount of research to make sure that the things that

413
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,960
you're conveying are accurate. So what are some of the

414
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,599
things that you learned about criminology and detectivism that you

415
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,720
had applied to both Poe and gus landor.

416
00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 8: First of all, there wasn't a lot of either of

417
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,359
those things. The word detective was not even in the

418
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,319
English language when Poe was alive, So Jupan does not

419
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,680
refer to himself as a detective. That down came around

420
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:04,440
a few decades after that he was around for Holmes.

421
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 7: I'm guessing it was. So there really wasn't a word

422
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,480
in the English language to convey somebody who spends his

423
00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:14,319
time solving crimes, and that shows that the concept itself

424
00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:16,640
had not really yet taken hold in our culture. In

425
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,160
addition to that, the science of which you're speaking was

426
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,079
very primitive. But the person to go back to, just

427
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:27,279
another generation back is to vdoc about whom I wrote

428
00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:29,400
another book called The Black Tower. His name is usually

429
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,079
a FROs sUAS Vidoc. He was a legendary policeman, French

430
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,960
policeman who was originally a convict and worked his way

431
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:39,880
up the chain and became the founder of Surrete, which

432
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,400
was the first plain, closed detective force anywhere that we

433
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,160
know of. And he was the first one to really

434
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,599
start applying science to this. He was the first one

435
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,640
to take plaster impressions of footprints, He was the first

436
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,559
to look at ballistics.

437
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,319
Speaker 8: He actually theorized the possibility of fingerprints before they had

438
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,759
even proved, So he.

439
00:20:58,839 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 7: Was the first one.

440
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:02,279
Speaker 8: Yeah, and this was a couple of decades before po

441
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,039
In fact, Dupan one of the stories alludes to Vidoc

442
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,759
in a rather sliding ways. He was a good guesser

443
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,839
but in fact, yeah, he had to kill that that

444
00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:16,000
that father. But he Vidoq was the first one to

445
00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:19,599
actually think about approaching this as a science. So that

446
00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:22,880
was the intellectual foundation of what we would call detectivism today.

447
00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:25,680
Is a guy like Vedoc thinking we can do this

448
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,720
in a systematic way. He kept card files of all

449
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:31,000
the criminals in Paris at the time so that he

450
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,000
could match them up to whatever evidence.

451
00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:33,319
Speaker 2: He was.

452
00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 8: He was the first one really to make this a profession.

453
00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:40,079
And then so yeah, Dupin's character kind of takes that

454
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,039
in the next level, and then Holmes takes it from there.

455
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 6: But how did Vidoc come onto your radar?

456
00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:49,079
Speaker 8: Then it was through po because because who is this Vidoct?

457
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,160
That that Dupin is dissing?

458
00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 7: Who is this guy? And then I followed him, followed back.

459
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:57,079
Speaker 8: To him, and I found Vidoc was the inspiration for

460
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,240
both Jean Valjean and Jevert Inser because he was both

461
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,920
of those people. He was the that's right, he was

462
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,119
the hunted convict, and then he was the genius detective

463
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,559
who would track him down. Vidock's memoirs were enormous best

464
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,559
sellers in their day We're talking the eighteen twenties eighteen thirties,

465
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,039
and themselves almost entirely affectional, so you could almost argue

466
00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:21,839
that they are the first detective fiction in our culture.

467
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,039
But there were certainly a big influence on the people

468
00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:24,599
who followed.

469
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 2: So even though Vidoc was a secer of truth, his

470
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,279
memoirs are embellished, shall we.

471
00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 8: Say they were embellished. He had a ghostwriter who helped

472
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,039
him with out. I think he wanted to sell a

473
00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:38,880
lot of books and make some money, and who can

474
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:39,480
blame him for that?

475
00:22:39,519 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 7: So did elliott Ness. Apparently toward the end he also

476
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,079
had a collaborator, as Dan's book makes clear.

477
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 8: Yeah, he wanted to pump up the jam a little

478
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,599
bit and make the stories about Copona a little sexier

479
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:50,119
than they were.

480
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. We've talked about elliott Ness's early successes and visibility

481
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,920
through the mass media of the day, primarily newspapers. Yeah,

482
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,480
and he understood how the press and media worked and

483
00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:06,039
they wanted a good story that he actually had a

484
00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:09,519
harder time in the second half of his life even meeting,

485
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:15,359
never mind exceeding the expectations of him as a solver

486
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:17,039
of crime or untouchable.

487
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, all that good stuff.

488
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,039
Speaker 8: That Actually, that part of Dan's book made me think

489
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,920
more highly of him, because you could see he's resisting

490
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,119
this iconography that they were trying to envelop him in.

491
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:29,559
Speaker 7: He didn't.

492
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,559
Speaker 8: He was like, no, I'm not that guy. And I

493
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,480
got the sense from Dan's book that he was troubled

494
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,559
by it all the way to the end.

495
00:23:35,599 --> 00:23:38,559
Speaker 7: He really didn't want to go there. He also had

496
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:41,720
some financial needs, so as you said, he understood the process,

497
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:44,640
but he also understood the complexity of submitting yourself to that.

498
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself then traveling to West Point at

499
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,359
any point to get the lay of the Hudson Valley?

500
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:51,839
Was that?

501
00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, I did go to West Point for a couple

502
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,279
of days. This was two thousand and five probably when

503
00:23:58,279 --> 00:23:59,960
I went there, And this is right after nine eleven,

504
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:02,480
and so a lot of it was shut down. Oh yeah,

505
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,039
I had to get a faculty member just exquire me

506
00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:07,359
around to some places, and a lot, of course the

507
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,680
old West Point is gone.

508
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 7: It's true.

509
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 8: Of all the books I write, I tend to write

510
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,519
about lost worlds, so you have to find them through books.

511
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,359
But one of the things that really struck me about

512
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,319
West Point is they really, at that time anyway, did

513
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,079
not acknowledge poem in any way. There was no if

514
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,039
you go to uv If you go to Uva, his

515
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,680
room is a shrine r edground. Post spent six months

516
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,839
at Uva, which is about the same amount of time

517
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:33,799
he spent at West Point. West Point doesn't even acknowledge

518
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:34,920
that he was there, at least they didn't.

519
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,319
Speaker 7: Then. There was nothing about him in the gift shop,

520
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:38,559
nothing about him on the tour.

521
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: He washed out. He washed out, And I come from

522
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:42,640
a Navy.

523
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,799
Speaker 7: Family family myself.

524
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,039
Speaker 2: So if you wash out, it's like you never existed.

525
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:51,759
Speaker 7: It was an embarrassment to them. He was an embarrassment,

526
00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:54,200
I think to them, as was James Whistler went there

527
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:57,759
another one a couple of decades later, and also unacknowledged,

528
00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:01,160
So they didn't become great Milli Jerry leaders, and hence

529
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,359
why would we bring them up.

530
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,279
Speaker 8: I'm wondering now if it's changed, because I know that

531
00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:08,599
when they filmed The Pale Blue Eye, they brought down

532
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,960
some West Point instructors to help coach the actors who.

533
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 7: Were playing the cadets. Oh interesting, I know they were

534
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,319
willing to go that far, but it wasn't filmed there

535
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,319
because I think a lot of the campus is it's

536
00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:19,160
still off limits.

537
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:23,279
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

538
00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:30,799
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

539
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:31,720
mindover Murder.

540
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 5: Let's talk a little bit about the movie and when

541
00:25:35,519 --> 00:25:39,240
you had first posted the poster and then you started

542
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,240
posting the trailers on Facebook, I nearly lost my mind.

543
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,559
Speaker 6: It looks fantastic. So when did you find out that

544
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,000
it was going to be. It's an actual go. This

545
00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:48,839
thing is happening.

546
00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:51,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you talk a little bit about that process

547
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,480
of learning. Hey, they're making my book into a movie.

548
00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:56,200
That's got to be an amazing feeling.

549
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,839
Speaker 7: It's pretty cool. It doesn't suck.

550
00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:02,839
Speaker 8: So this started back in two thousand and six when

551
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:04,880
the book came out and a guy named Scott Cooper,

552
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,000
who had written and directed Crazy Heart, that was the

553
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,279
movie that one Jeff Bridge is an oscar, so he

554
00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:14,599
put an option on it. And just for your listeners,

555
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,279
I need to explain, an option is not anywhere anything

556
00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:20,720
like a green light. An option is just somebody saying,

557
00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:22,599
you know what, this book looks interesting.

558
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,319
Speaker 7: Let me take it away for a year and see

559
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,640
if I can make something happen. Ninety nine percent of

560
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,440
the time, nothing ever happens because there are so many

561
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,400
things that need to align for a movie to be

562
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,319
made at any time. So after a year Scott went away,

563
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,119
and it's like, Okay, whatever I was, I've been instructed

564
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,559
by my agent never to put any amount of energy

565
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:43,119
into thinking that anything will happen.

566
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,599
Speaker 2: It's more likely not going to happen than it is

567
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:45,880
going to.

568
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly because it just takes so many things to align.

569
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,960
There's so much happenstance that needs to happen.

570
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,759
Speaker 8: So sixteen years go by and then Scott renews the option.

571
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,039
It's like, oh, you're kidding, same guy.

572
00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:58,519
Speaker 7: Wow.

573
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,279
Speaker 8: He always had it back of his heads, something he

574
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,799
wanted to do, and it turned out that he had

575
00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:06,079
an actor who was interested in doing it, and then

576
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,799
that was Christian Bale, with whom he'd already done two

577
00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:13,240
movies prior to that. Suddenly Christian Bale has a film

578
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:15,519
project that falls through, he has a hole in his schedule,

579
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:19,680
and then suddenly it happens. And I had zero, less

580
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,119
than zero control over any of this, and I was

581
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,400
the last to know that. They didn't contact me or

582
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,920
my agents. I learned about it from an article, Hollywood

583
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,079
Reporter article that somebody sent me. Oh well yeah, So

584
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,279
I was like, it was nice, that's good. And then

585
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,160
they shifted around. There was a European film market thing,

586
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:40,279
I forget what it's called. Anyway, they were selling it

587
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,680
around there, and it got a record bid from Netflix,

588
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,519
and then suddenly it was happening. So it just I

589
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:49,720
was surprised, as anyone. I wasn't part of the I

590
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,599
wasn't in those rooms. I wasn't part of those negotiations.

591
00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:54,720
I just learned about it after it was all done.

592
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,759
But of course it was delighted.

593
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,279
Speaker 5: Wow, And of course I was thrilled to hear that

594
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,279
it's going to be Harry Melling who's playing po.

595
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 6: Had you did you get to meet any of these guys?

596
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,039
Speaker 5: Did you meet Christian Dale, Harry Melly, like any of

597
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:09,200
this or was this complete?

598
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,519
Speaker 6: Did it happen after you and then you learned about it? Yeah?

599
00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, they were they, Yes, they cast everything with that.

600
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:18,000
I was not consultant in the casting, but of course,

601
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:20,960
as delight out Robert Javal, Gillian Anderson, I'll take them,

602
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:21,200
thank you.

603
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 7: Yeah really, But I was.

604
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,799
Speaker 8: Actually already familiar with Harry Melling for those people who

605
00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:28,880
don't know the name. He originally he was the original

606
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,039
Dudley Dursley in the Harry Potter.

607
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,319
Speaker 7: Movies, which is fascinating.

608
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, but then he lost a lot of weight and

609
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,319
kind of grew up into this really marvelous leading man.

610
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,759
I saw him in The Queen's Gambit, he's one of

611
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:45,079
the chess players who's helping her heroine get through life.

612
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:47,799
And then I saw him in this wonderful Coen Brothers

613
00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:50,200
western called The Bout of Lester Scrag.

614
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,839
Speaker 7: He plays this armless, legless guy.

615
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,279
Speaker 8: Who declaims poetry and is carried from town to town

616
00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:57,079
by name Neeson.

617
00:28:57,359 --> 00:28:59,279
Speaker 2: Kind of a wonderful, weird character.

618
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, yes, And then I got to visit the

619
00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:06,079
set for a day back in gosh, it was December.

620
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 7: It was just a few days before it contracted COVID.

621
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,759
I remember clearly. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, I didn't get

622
00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:12,880
it there. I didn't get there.

623
00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: Oh can't you blame them anyway? Come on, that would

624
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,680
make a good story.

625
00:29:16,759 --> 00:29:17,039
Speaker 7: Yeah.

626
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,599
Speaker 8: They were actually very ferocious about their masks. There was

627
00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:21,799
somebody on the SAT who called herself the COVID Snitch,

628
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,119
who was looking to make sure everyone was wearing the

629
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,799
correct men pulling it down. But anyway, I got to

630
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,039
meet Bail and Melling both and Robert Davall.

631
00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 7: It was lovely.

632
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 8: And I will say I've seen the movie and Harry

633
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,200
Melling is they're both. They're both great, because you know,

634
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:38,880
Christian Bale's gonna be great, but Harry Melling is superb.

635
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:41,759
Speaker 7: He manages the Richmond accent that Edgar and Poe would

636
00:29:41,759 --> 00:29:44,119
have had. Oh and they've made him up.

637
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 8: They actually shaved a half inch of his hairline back

638
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:48,359
to give him that bigger brow.

639
00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 6: Wow.

640
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 7: In the final scene, he looks so remarkably like Poe.

641
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,920
It's ear wow. Okay, this just shows you what film

642
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:56,680
artisans can do.

643
00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:00,119
Speaker 5: I was actually sitting in the audience with Dan and

644
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,599
we were talking about the casting of Harry mil We

645
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,799
were waiting for you to talk to Hugh Bonneville, and

646
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,039
I'd asked him do you think Harry Millan is the

647
00:30:09,079 --> 00:30:11,400
best choice or who would you like to see his Poe?

648
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 6: And his immediate answer was not John Cusack.

649
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 8: Actually, yes, John Cusick has a dark place in my

650
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:21,440
soul because he put out this is right actually right

651
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,119
around the time the first option came out.

652
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,039
Speaker 7: There was it called The Raven.

653
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 4: The Raven.

654
00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was this Poe movie that just died on impact.

655
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,799
I think it played terrible in local theaters for two

656
00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:35,640
and a half hours. I think it was the lasted

657
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,480
through the first actual showing and it was gone. And

658
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:41,319
there was actually an article that came out in the

659
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:43,480
time that that's killed any chance of a poem movie

660
00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:47,319
happening anytime soon. So I feel like, yeah, he put

661
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,119
he stunk up the joint of it with that when

662
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,960
it took a while for the climate to clear for

663
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,000
another Poe movie. But that's all right.

664
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:58,839
Speaker 2: It happened when you were listing the cast. I was thinking, Gee,

665
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,000
it's too bad none of the good people were available,

666
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:06,559
because one spectacular name after another, all incredible actors, and

667
00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:08,480
it just sounds fantastic.

668
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:10,319
Speaker 5: I wouldn't have been able to speak if I'd met

669
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,200
Robert Duvall. I wouldn't know what to say. I wouldn't

670
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:15,039
even know where to start.

671
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, Yes, it was fascinating just to watch him do

672
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,799
his thing. And yeah he's ninety one now, I think,

673
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:23,839
oh my gosh, Wow, he's well on in years. He's

674
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,920
well on in years. It's just I should say it's

675
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,640
a small part. It's basically a cameo part, but it's

676
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,599
just great to see him up on the screen. Yeah,

677
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:32,319
doing his thing.

678
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 2: This is the part when I get to admit my

679
00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:37,559
lifelong crush on Jillian Anderson.

680
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,119
Speaker 8: Oh you would need both Bill and I'm gay. I'm

681
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,160
still all over her. I just I'm fascinated by her.

682
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: I think she's great, and my partner Pamela loves her

683
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,799
as well. We'll watch her in anything, because you know

684
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,799
she's going to turn in a real subtle, nuanced, yes,

685
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,640
amazing performance no matter what character you hand her.

686
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 7: Who would have thought of her as Margaret Thatcher and

687
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,640
then you watch it, I.

688
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,079
Speaker 2: Know she was fantastic.

689
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 4: It's amazing, amazing.

690
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now I'm going to lose that detective series

691
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,359
she did in Ireland a couple of years ago, The Fall,

692
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,759
The Fall, that was incredible.

693
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,119
Speaker 7: So good, so good. Yeah, yeah, with Jamie Jordan.

694
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, he was the bad guy, he was the killer.

695
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,480
It was really good, spantactical she was.

696
00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:28,359
Speaker 7: So she was so insanely sexy in that show.

697
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 8: I think just as this again, the brilliant detective applying

698
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:34,799
her with but so just smokingly on sexy.

699
00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,599
Speaker 2: And let's let it be noted for the record that

700
00:32:37,759 --> 00:32:40,400
the gay Man is the one that said that she

701
00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:41,480
was could journ.

702
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:44,039
Speaker 7: Me Bill, she could turn me. Oh wow, here we go,

703
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:45,359
I think she could.

704
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: I didn't know we were going to get that confessional.

705
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 6: So you said you've seen the film already.

706
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,119
Speaker 4: Does it remain fairly faithful to the book.

707
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 6: Or does it take some artistic license that.

708
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 7: Made you go no, I was part of I consulted

709
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,960
on the script. You to share successive drafts with me. Yeah,

710
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:07,880
he didn't need to do that.

711
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,799
Speaker 8: Was incredibly generous and secure of him, honestly to do that.

712
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,720
So I understood from the start, and I think this

713
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:15,079
is why he wanted to work with me. Is I

714
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,640
got that translating a book to a film your darlings,

715
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:20,599
a certain number of darlings have.

716
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: To be killed in that process, very compressed.

717
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,319
Speaker 7: You have to pair, you have to pair.

718
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:28,039
Speaker 8: It's not alimined to run series. It's a two hour movie,

719
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:29,640
so I knew a lot of stuff would have to

720
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,880
go away. And I think it was clear in Scott's

721
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,079
mind that it had to be a slightly less supernatural

722
00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:37,000
story than the book is, because the book is kind

723
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,200
of steeped and there's an acrostic poem, there's lots of

724
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:42,559
stuff going on, so it's a little less, but it's

725
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:46,279
still there's still that sense of revenance to use another

726
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,480
movie title of people who won't.

727
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:51,559
Speaker 7: Quite stay dead. So that's there, And no, I was.

728
00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:54,279
Speaker 8: I was really pleased with how faithful he wanted to

729
00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:56,680
remain to the book. And then I saw the movie

730
00:33:57,119 --> 00:33:58,920
a couple of weeks ago, and it's I will just

731
00:33:58,960 --> 00:33:59,920
say because I had nothing to do with.

732
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:04,359
Speaker 7: It's beautifully filmed, it's gorgeously photographed, and the score is

733
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,599
by Howard Shore, who did The Lord of the Rings.

734
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

735
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 8: And this is why I'm encouraging all my friends to

736
00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:12,239
go see it for the three weeks it's in a

737
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,360
movie theater, because it should be seen. It's one of

738
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,719
those movies you really do want to see in the

739
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,880
theater just to get a sense of its gorgeous, very dark,

740
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,840
of course, but beautiful, just stunning to look at.

741
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 7: And so I'm very pleased with it. I couldn't be happier.

742
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: So you aren't one of those authors that finds himself

743
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,159
sitting there in the dark watching the movie saying I

744
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:29,920
didn't write that.

745
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 7: No, I'm savoring the bits that I did write.

746
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,079
Speaker 8: And to hear my lines coming out of Jillian Anderson,

747
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:42,400
for instance, well, to hear the people saying my original

748
00:34:42,519 --> 00:34:46,360
lines is pretty surreal. I gotta say that something I enjoyed.

749
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,199
Speaker 5: The book is out now, of course, and you can

750
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,079
find it just about everywhere, including the storehouse of the

751
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:54,679
world Amazon, but we encourage you to buy it from

752
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,960
small indie booksellers.

753
00:34:56,039 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 6: I always say, for example, in DC politics and pro

754
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,440
is probably one of the best of the indie bookstores

755
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:02,880
up there.

756
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,159
Speaker 7: In the city books as well.

757
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, but wherever you can find an independent books

758
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,920
that are please, whether it's this book or not, please

759
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,280
patronize them because if they're doing it's all a solid

760
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,119
by doing what they do.

761
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so then the movie comes out when and

762
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,960
on what streaming services and what theaters.

763
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 7: It'll be out in theaters select theaters near you on December.

764
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:25,000
I have no doubt what that means.

765
00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:28,079
Speaker 8: I'll find out with that December twenty third, it'll be

766
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:31,440
in theaters for three weeks and then starting January sixth

767
00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:34,280
week streaming on Netflix. So it should be available wherever

768
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,960
you have a Netflix subscription, So don't let your subscriptions

769
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:38,639
go idle.

770
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 7: You'll need to be on top of this.

771
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: Keep the TV warmed up. December twenty third, three weeks

772
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,480
in the theaters January sixth, twenty twenty three, Miss debut

773
00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:52,079
on Netflix. Yes, yes, May I ask a nuts and

774
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:52,880
bolts question?

775
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 7: Sure?

776
00:35:54,199 --> 00:36:00,199
Speaker 2: When these options are exercised, do you get paid? Does

777
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,880
somebody send you a check and say or we want

778
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,719
to option your movie for the next year?

779
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,599
Speaker 7: You get paid usually with well it depends, but you

780
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,239
usually get paid something with an option. Some people will

781
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,800
ask for an option for nothing, and that occasionally happens.

782
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,599
It's all a thing that agents negotiate. But yes, you

783
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:18,719
get en up from payment.

784
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 8: So I have not received any payment since I don't

785
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,119
get a share of the budget. Netflix doesn't pay me anything.

786
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,599
My money came strictly from that upfront option payment.

787
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: So those dirt balls pay you the second time when

788
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:33,280
they optioned the movie.

789
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was actually pretty nice. We fixed our roof,

790
00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:39,760
we got some dinning room furniture, oh wow, okay, paid

791
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,239
us some credit, a couple of credit cards.

792
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,079
Speaker 8: It came at a really good time. I got to say,

793
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,840
we had a kid in college and as stress, the

794
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:50,760
timing is really good.

795
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,159
Speaker 2: It was like more than an electric bicycle level payments.

796
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 7: Yes, it was more than an electric but not as

797
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:02,440
much as a Tesla or or Lamborghini or any of

798
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,800
that staff or anywhere near that. But still it was welcome.

799
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,000
It was welcome and appreciate it.

800
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:08,519
Speaker 5: So can you tell us about some future projects or

801
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:10,079
are you keeping those on the DL for.

802
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:10,559
Speaker 6: A little bit.

803
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:12,599
Speaker 7: I'm working in a book right now that I am

804
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,960
that is on the d L by order of my agent.

805
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:17,679
But I just published a book last June called Jackie

806
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,039
and Me, not a gothic thriller mystery, but a kind

807
00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:25,199
of courtship novel surrounding Jackie Bouvier and Jack Kennedy, as

808
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,199
told by Jack Kennedy's best friend, Line Buildings. So it's

809
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:28,639
a kind of.

810
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 8: Interesting love triangle with a lot of I've actually moved interestingly,

811
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,440
I've moved away as an author from gothic mystery thriller thing,

812
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,119
not deliberately, it's just where I found up drifting. My

813
00:37:41,199 --> 00:37:45,039
whole career has been basically drifting from one thing to another.

814
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,880
So it's interesting to be re established as this dark

815
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,280
gothic guy. But I'm just trying to keep the stories

816
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:55,360
rolling and keep everything happening.

817
00:37:55,559 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: Oh, Jackie and Me was tremendous.

818
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 5: I loved it, and I wish I hated not being

819
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,599
able to get to any of your book events for it,

820
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:03,079
but it.

821
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 7: Was You're three hours away, Kristin. I would not expect

822
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:06,119
that of you.

823
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 10: Now.

824
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 5: I want to be able to come to them whenever

825
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:09,800
I can, and I just that was one of those

826
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,920
times where nothing seemed to fit right with my schedule.

827
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 6: But oh no, Jackie and Me is terrific.

828
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:18,159
Speaker 5: Even though most of our true crime Holiday Gift guide

829
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,079
is crime related, I would say for any of our

830
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,320
listeners who want another something really good to.

831
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 6: Buy, Jackie and Me is fantastic.

832
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,199
Speaker 7: I just loved it. Thank you very much.

833
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,559
Speaker 2: Although Kristin has been accused of emptying our listener's wallet,

834
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,920
says they go out and buy all these books, Boo.

835
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 6: Keeps saying Stoff recommending stuff I need to read.

836
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:40,159
Speaker 7: I was going to say, authors will not complain about

837
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,559
Kristin doing this for them. They will not be the

838
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,199
last ones to complain. But thank you.

839
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: As you move around stylistically, Lou, you're not thinking I

840
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,519
want to put that aside and I want to move

841
00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:54,519
in this direction. It's more where your creative heart takes you.

842
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a really good way of describing it, Bill.

843
00:38:57,039 --> 00:39:00,280
I think it is where I'm just feeling energized now.

844
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 8: And it's funny I tried to get twice now I've

845
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,320
tried to get a witch novel off the ground.

846
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 7: I haven't direct.

847
00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:10,559
Speaker 8: I I have a direct ancestor who was an accused

848
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:13,639
witch in Hartford, Connecticut, twenty years before the Salem witch trials.

849
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,360
Hartford had his own witch panic. She was one of

850
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,360
the people dragged into jail over it. I thought, oh

851
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,199
my gosh, I have an accused witch in my family tree.

852
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:26,039
Seriously need to write this, and it's been very hard

853
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:27,840
for me to get it off the ground. And I

854
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,880
don't know whether it's just I don't have the energy

855
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,079
for it anymore, or it's just I haven't figured out

856
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:32,679
the right angle.

857
00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:34,519
Speaker 7: It's it's my book in the drawer.

858
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah you are there, pubject Yeah.

859
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:39,199
Speaker 7: Yes, so it's still in the drawer, and I haven't

860
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,440
given up on it, so hopefully someday I can drag

861
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:41,719
it out.

862
00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:45,199
Speaker 2: I'm going to put an offer out on the table here. Okay,

863
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,199
my partner Pamela and I have a beautiful eighteen eighty

864
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,199
Victorian house in Norfolk, Connecticut. We're not in Hartford, but

865
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,440
we're only forty five minutes away. Yeah, and it's a

866
00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:01,000
wonderful old spooky house. Welcome to come up here if

867
00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:03,360
you need a base of operations and haunt.

868
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 7: You're saying it's haunted.

869
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:07,079
Speaker 2: There are things go bump in the night. I think

870
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,440
it's the I think it's Oliver the Docs, and but

871
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:10,320
I'm not sure.

872
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 7: That you Bill is at my age, I'm the one

873
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,159
going bump in the night.

874
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 2: I didn't know there was a Hartford witch scare. We're

875
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,519
four years in this house.

876
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 7: Sixty two.

877
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 10: Sixteen sixty two is when it happened. Yeteen sixty two, Yeah,

878
00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:28,480
checking out scare. Wow, his eyes lit up. That would

879
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:32,559
be ms Dilly because when Kristen was up here with

880
00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:38,119
her partner Mark, they were doing the Salem thing and

881
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,039
witchcraft definitely was a thread throughout her last New England vacation.

882
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 5: You can only teach the Crucibles so many times that

883
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,039
it's suddenly becoming Okay.

884
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,199
Speaker 6: It's in me now.

885
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:50,199
Speaker 2: So well.

886
00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:52,679
Speaker 8: On the one of the issues I found as a writers,

887
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,159
the Puritans are really tough.

888
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 7: They're really weird.

889
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 8: They are weird as people, and I think in some

890
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,119
ways we're closer to the people of Shakespeare's London than

891
00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:05,360
we are to the Puritans. They were deeply supernatural, so

892
00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:08,679
that they really thought the devil was walking abroad and

893
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:13,079
was visiting their world with their talents and recruiting individuals.

894
00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:16,679
So which hunts were like national security efforts to protect

895
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,960
the community from these people. So it's hard to get

896
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,599
into that mindset. Really, they saw the world in very different.

897
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,559
Speaker 7: Terms than we do. Oh yeah, yeah, and weren't a

898
00:41:24,639 --> 00:41:26,599
lot of fun. Let's be honest, they weren't a lot

899
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:29,119
of fund to hang out with. So that was part

900
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:29,639
of the issues.

901
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: The Puritans and good time don't necessarily appear in the

902
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:34,840
same sentence all.

903
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,639
Speaker 7: That exactly exactly.

904
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,599
Speaker 2: But I think this idea that there could be a

905
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:44,199
physical manifestation of evil amongst them. This is the distrust

906
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:50,960
of strangers or you know, what they saw as odd behaviors, hysteria. Yeah,

907
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:54,000
and also I think they seem to have a problem

908
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:56,760
with a woman stepping out of line in any way,

909
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,039
shape or form. Yeah.

910
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 7: I think the research shows that the people who were

911
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,360
targeted were outliers, were single women.

912
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, women who are kind of not acting according to norms.

913
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,400
So yeah, for sure, whatever those were, yes, exactly.

914
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, And all you have to do is ask Nathaniel

915
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,320
Hawthorne about a many women who can't stay in their place.

916
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 7: Well, I read the scar Letter as part of my research,

917
00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:21,800
just because it's right in the heart of that they're

918
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,400
just weird. They're really weird.

919
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 8: And so you always think, is that when I go

920
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,440
into a novel, is do I want to spend two

921
00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:31,519
years with people. Yes, I have them in my life

922
00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:34,199
for two years, and so that's always a consideration.

923
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 5: The one thing before we let you go that I

924
00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:39,320
didn't ask you about was your research process, because we

925
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,800
did talk to Dan at length about the amount of

926
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,760
time that he spent paging.

927
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,559
Speaker 6: Through old scrap books. Oh yeah, in Cleveland.

928
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,199
Speaker 5: What is your research process like and how deeply interposed

929
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,920
world did you have to delve to get to the

930
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:54,800
pale blue eye.

931
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 8: I would suggest that my research process isn't as considerable

932
00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,760
as Dan's, or is that of any nonfiction writer. My

933
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,079
feeling is that as a novelist, I learn enough to

934
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:05,239
be able to tell the story.

935
00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 6: Okay.

936
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 8: As a result, I'm never what I would call an

937
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:11,480
expert on anything. I also am very clever to say this.

938
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,519
Speaker 7: I never think of this consciously in advance, but I

939
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:15,760
wrote a book about young Lincoln. I wrote a book

940
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,480
about young Jackie Kennedy, young Poe. So that means you

941
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:21,960
really don't have to investigate too much of their life afterwards.

942
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,320
You can be a little bit.

943
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 8: Ignorant of that stuff because they're not that person yet.

944
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,880
And that's almost the attraction is catching them in that

945
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,280
liminal form where they haven't quite become the person we

946
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,800
know Jackie and Jackie and Me is not that Jackie yet.

947
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,280
She's still finding her way there. And the same with

948
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,079
Poe in the Payable Eye. He's not that Poe yet.

949
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:43,920
He hasn't quite found his vocation and he's calling. So

950
00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:47,320
it's interesting to find them in that place. In terms

951
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,920
of West Point, I did a lot of There wasn't

952
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,920
a lot, honestly, I found, but I found a couple

953
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:56,320
of Actually there was a novel that was written that

954
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,719
did gosh forty years ago, fifty years ago, the Nanger

955
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:03,280
billion then grants. Anyway, I had a lot of great details.

956
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:04,800
But you just find them where you can.

957
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,079
Speaker 7: But it's all for me. It's on the stacks.

958
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 8: You just go on the stacks and try to find

959
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,880
a contemporary, first person accounts of these things and just

960
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,039
try to learn what you can. Often the act of

961
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:16,840
writing the book tells me what I still need to know,

962
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,000
which is often considerable.

963
00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 7: So I'll be trying to tell those stories. Oh wait,

964
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,760
I still need to learn about this, and I still

965
00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:25,239
learn about that. So there's always something I'm looking Right

966
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,760
now in my office, I'm looking at the big book

967
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,440
of notes I have for the pale lit eye. It

968
00:44:29,519 --> 00:44:32,360
was a rather large it's a rather large notebook now

969
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:33,039
that I think about it.

970
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:35,519
Speaker 8: And I remember looking at these three British women who

971
00:44:35,559 --> 00:44:38,280
were traveling around America around that time. You always go

972
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,400
to the foreigners, because that's what we are when we

973
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:44,679
go back with foreigners. And so they're showing they're going

974
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,039
to Niagara Falls, which was a huge tourist destination, and

975
00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:50,079
they're they're showing what it would have been like to

976
00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:52,320
live then, and it's really valuable.

977
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: And that perspective from the alien, if you will, point

978
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,760
of view, would be if we were flying back to

979
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,880
the time and place, that's where we'd be starting.

980
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,119
Speaker 8: I forget who said is the past is a foreign country,

981
00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:09,159
But that's what it is. We're all foreigners to that world.

982
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,920
You go back there humbly looking for just details and stuff.

983
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,760
I'm always looking for clothes, but people were wearing. I'm

984
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,199
always looking for idioms expressions that they would have used

985
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,679
back then. Actually, one of the nicer compliments they received

986
00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:24,159
from the Palabe about the Payable Eyes that it feels

987
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,000
like a book that was actually written in eighteen thirty.

988
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:27,599
Speaker 6: Wow.

989
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 2: Oh, that is a real compliment.

990
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:31,159
Speaker 7: It is a compliment. It is a company.

991
00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 8: It's not quite true, because I feel like if it

992
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:36,079
had been eighteen thirty book, it would be unreadable now

993
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:36,679
to most people.

994
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 7: So you have to find some hybrid between now and then.

995
00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:41,679
But it's nice to know. I should add too that.

996
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 8: A lot of the book is written in edground posone voice,

997
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,880
which was the challenge I said for myself, and it

998
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,400
was really fun to make happen. Oh, and I should

999
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,840
add I also that your listeners might be interested. I

1000
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,119
listened to recordings of post stories by We're Going Back

1001
00:45:57,159 --> 00:45:59,679
in Time Vincent Price, and that's what.

1002
00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:04,199
Speaker 7: Yeah, so these old time horror actors. I would have

1003
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,320
these stories like playing alongside me. Yeah, as I was writing,

1004
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,199
because I thought it just get me in the right place.

1005
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,239
So yeah, it's lovely. I loved researching that book, I.

1006
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,079
Speaker 2: Can imagine, So it feels good when The New York

1007
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:22,480
Times calls Pale Blue Eye gruesomely entertaining. Yes, but I

1008
00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:24,000
don't know if that was what you were going for.

1009
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,039
Speaker 7: Of course I was going for that absolutely. No, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1010
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:31,000
there it is. No.

1011
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:33,199
Speaker 8: The New York Times review is particularly I'm still quoting

1012
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,039
from that review. It was so lovely that I'm still

1013
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,360
snipping from it as I go through life. I'm just

1014
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,239
turning it into a permanent.

1015
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 7: But it's nice. No anytimes the time says it proves

1016
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,519
of your work. It's a good thing.

1017
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,119
Speaker 6: Yeah, this has some amazing reviews.

1018
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 4: So the book is The Pale Blue Eye.

1019
00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 5: The movie and seem to be Netflix movie is also

1020
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,880
called The Pale Blue Eye. And in addition to Pale

1021
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,920
Blue Eye, give us the name of your book about

1022
00:47:01,039 --> 00:47:03,320
v doc again for our listeners who are interested in

1023
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:04,199
going further back.

1024
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:06,119
Speaker 7: Yes, it's called The Black Tower.

1025
00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:10,079
Speaker 8: Yes, it's in an eighteen eighteen Paris and involves the

1026
00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:15,159
potentially the lost Dauphin of France who was supposedly killed

1027
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,599
during the revolution but may have survived. It's like an

1028
00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:22,360
Amstagia story of this royal figure who might have made

1029
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,039
it out of all the devastations.

1030
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:29,199
Speaker 5: So yes, And then for the Christmas loving person among us,

1031
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,960
you also have mister Timothy.

1032
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:34,079
Speaker 7: Ah, there we go. I love how we're working through

1033
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:35,119
the canon. Thank you for this.

1034
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 8: Mister Timothy is about tiny tim not the curly hair

1035
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,960
jubidour familiar to people of my generation, but the actual

1036
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:47,760
Dickens character. And yes, it's again a sort of gothic

1037
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:51,239
mystery thriller set during Christmas, but with a grown up

1038
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,159
Tiny Tim. He's now a grown man living in London,

1039
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,880
living in a brothel and teaching them madam how to

1040
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,800
read and combing the Thames River for bodies. So he's

1041
00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:04,119
your grandmother's tiny Tim, really, But that was really by design.

1042
00:48:04,199 --> 00:48:06,679
That was my my again my homage to Dickens, but

1043
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,800
also my desire to make Timothy tiny Tim a character

1044
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:10,400
I could stand.

1045
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 7: I never liked Tenny Tim. That's my confession there. While

1046
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,800
we're being confessional, I've confessed my feelings for Gillian Anderson,

1047
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,199
and now I'm confessing my feelings about tiny Tim, which

1048
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,960
is I never could stand him. So the book is

1049
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:25,559
my way of kind of turning into somebody I God.

1050
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 4: Bless us, everyone, bless us.

1051
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: We can get you there, okay, And next time we

1052
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:32,119
have you on, we want to talk about your research

1053
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,800
into the brothel lifestyle.

1054
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,519
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, what do you need to know? Bill? Just

1055
00:48:38,679 --> 00:48:44,559
message me privately what you need to know about that. Absolutely, Lou, we.

1056
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 6: Loved having you on.

1057
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:48,679
Speaker 5: This was fantastic and we are encouraging all of our

1058
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,239
listeners to read, especially The Pale Blue eye, but also

1059
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,440
anything in your canon, because really at this point you

1060
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:58,239
do have just it's a wide variety of wonderful books.

1061
00:48:58,440 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 6: So thank you so much for joining us on our

1062
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:00,559
our episode.

1063
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,039
Speaker 7: Thank you, this has been a blast. I've really enjoyed

1064
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:03,559
my time here.

1065
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 6: That's going to do it for this episode of mind

1066
00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:08,239
Over Murder. We'll see you next time.

1067
00:49:18,199 --> 00:49:21,679
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1068
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,239
Another Dog Productions.

1069
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,119
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1070
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

1071
00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:32,599
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.

1072
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:37,039
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

1073
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

1074
00:49:41,199 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

1075
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,599
Murders on Facebook.

1076
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1077
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:50,039
Bill Thomas five six.

1078
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:53,559
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

1079
00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:08,599
Speaker 4: An