WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.359 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:45.240 Good Evening. They blended in, they raised families, held steady jobs, 8 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:50.240 and hid in plain sight. But behind the mask of normalcy, 9 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:55.840 they were monsters responsible for decades of terror, pain and death. 10 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.320 Every Killer Leads a Trace is a chilling now of 11 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.480 nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking, 12 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:09.239 unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty six of America's most 13 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:15.000 elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting edge forensic breakthroughs, 14 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.640 each chapter reveals how justice caught up with the murderers 15 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.959 who thought they'd never be found. Meticulously researched and drawn 16 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:29.040 from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and first 17 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.719 hand interviews with investigators and victims families, this book is 18 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:38.280 a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit 19 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.920 of truth. These are not just stories of murder. They 20 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:47.239 are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never 21 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:53.239 truly denied. They got away with murder until they didn't. 22 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.840 The book they were featuring this evening is Every Killer 23 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:01.040 Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes that fire expose the 24 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:06.719 most elusive killers, with my special guest author Dennis Carson. 25 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:10.240 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 26 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:14.439 this interview. Dennis Carson, You're very welcome and thank you 27 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:20.240 for having me. Thank you so much. Now, this book, 28 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:24.479 Every Killer Leads a Trace, The fatal mistakes that finally 29 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:29.680 exposed America's most elusive killers. You're right that Every Killer 30 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.400 Leads a Trace offers a compelling exploration of the darkest 31 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:39.719 recesses of human behavior. Chronicling twenty six chilling true crime 32 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:44.680 cases from modern history and is a tribute to the 33 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:48.680 pursuit of justice, the resilience of survivors, and the relentless 34 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:53.439 efforts of those who seek truth in the aftermath of horror. 35 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:59.520 Each chapter dissects the final fatal act that ultimately exposed 36 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:04.560 the murder on unraveled their ability to hide in plain sight. 37 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:09.439 Tell us why you wrote this book. What are the 38 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:10.960 origins of this book? 39 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.400 Well, that's a really important question. I wrote Every Killer 40 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.479 Leaves a Trace because I wanted to challenge the myth 41 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.199 of the so called perfect killer. You know, for years 42 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.039 we've seen this narrative that some murders are just too clever, 43 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:29.159 too elusive to ever be caught. But when you look closely, 44 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.199 every single one of them made a mistake. And that 45 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:36.759 mistake is whether it's a trace of DNA, a careless decision, 46 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:41.639 or a small clue investigators refused to look at. That's 47 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:46.360 finally what took them down. But you know, actually, Dan, 48 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.120 there's another side to it. The book isn't just about 49 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.439 crime scenes and evidence. It's about the families and the 50 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:58.199 investigators who refused silence, mothers who wouldn't let their children's 51 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.960 stories be buried, to refuse to give up even when 52 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:05.960 the case went cold. You know, in interviewing all these people, 53 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.240 it was their persistence, combined with the rise of forensic science, 54 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.400 that ultimately forced the truth to come into the light. 55 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.399 But clearly, I didn't write this book to glorify killers. 56 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:19.959 I mean, there's not a chance in heck. I wrote 57 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.279 it to honor the victims, to shine a light on resilience, 58 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.240 and to remind readers that justice is never really out 59 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:30.120 of reach. The dead do speak if we're willing to 60 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:31.439 listen to them. 61 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:34.480 Now, give us a little bit of your background before 62 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:36.959 you endeavored to do this project. I know that you 63 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.920 had a book under a pen name that you had 64 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:45.560 written previously. But also you speak about this team that 65 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:48.839 you have of specialists. Can you tell us about this 66 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:52.000 team that supports you in your writing. 67 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:57.399 Unfortunately, this gentleman has died about two years ago, and 68 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.560 that was the La County Corn to the Stars, Ed Winter. 69 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.480 He handled cases like Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant, 70 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.120 Nipsey Hustle, blah blah blah blah. But like I said, unfortunately, 71 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:13.639 my friend Ed did die two years ago. In any event, 72 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:17.959 to ensure the autestent, authenticity and depth of my narrative, 73 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:23.720 I work with Dottie Owens. She's the renowned former Idaho coroner. 74 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:28.519 She retired about eight months ago, and Lina Evans, Alabama's 75 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:32.639 current coroner. I love Lina because she's known for her 76 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.480 on wavering pursuit of justice. I mean, she's a real 77 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:38.839 dog in and you know, don't let go kind of person. 78 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.839 I also work with a judge in New York who 79 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:47.720 was a former district attorney, and another two other members 80 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:51.759 of the team are Wesley Jennings, one of the world's 81 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:57.160 leading criminologists, and doctor Ashley Wellman. She's a certified forensic 82 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:02.439 death investigator. So Dan, that's basically the team. And as 83 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.120 we move on. As I moved on in each case, 84 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:11.199 I did interview different investigators, corners and the like, and 85 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:12.399 families for that matter. 86 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.839 Now tell us the criteria for better for lack of 87 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.639 a better term, or the reasons for including all of 88 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:26.079 these twenty six stories, And with that, could you give 89 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.759 us the contents of this incredible collection. 90 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.040 I looked at it that, Okay, some of these people 91 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.600 are household names. Ted Bundy as an example, you know, 92 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.319 we know about him, but so many of them are 93 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.040 just not household names. And I felt that the general 94 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:48.720 public interested in true crime should know about all these 95 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:52.399 other people, and I picked twenty six. You'll notice that 96 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:55.680 twenty five of the twenty six are male. There's only 97 00:06:55.720 --> 00:07:00.480 one female, and I only included her because she was 98 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.600 the strongest of all the female killers. Believe it or not, 99 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.079 So would you like me to run down some of 100 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:12.319 these twenty six cases, yes please, okay sure. Starting off 101 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:16.480 with Rodney Alcohola. He's known as the Dating Game Killer. 102 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.959 He was a smooth talking predator. He did his murders 103 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:27.160 behind a smile on national television, so the girls, the women, 104 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.519 you know, felt comfortable with him. I mean, this clown 105 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.240 was on TV. He had to be okay. Then there's 106 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:38.959 Angel Risendies. He's known as the Railroad Killer. He was 107 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:42.519 a drifter by nature. He moved between the US and Mexico, 108 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:47.240 blending into the shadows as he rode the trains. He 109 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.879 broke into homes along the tracks, turning ordinary houses into 110 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.839 scenes of unspeakable violence. I mean it was pretty dog 111 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.439 on bad. John Wacey Gasey the killer clown. This guy 112 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:04.639 really gets you. He's a seemingly upstanding neighbor whose playful 113 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:09.319 clown prosanna earned him trust at children's parties and community events. 114 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:12.560 He blended right in. Everybody loved him. He was the clown, 115 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:17.720 you know. But in the end, he abducted and lured 116 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.519 countless men I don't remember, it was something like twenty 117 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:26.120 into his home and brutally assaulted them and raped them, 118 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.000 and the bodies were found in his addict for a 119 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:34.159 smell by one of the neighbors discovered. Then there's John 120 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:38.840 Albert Gardner, the third, known as the San Diego rapist 121 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.799 and killer. He was a convicted sex offender. He roamed 122 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:49.679 suburban neighborhoods hunting for vulnerable young girls. His predatory violence 123 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:52.919 culminated with the murders of Chelsea King and Amber du Bois. 124 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.519 And they were a few years apart, those two murders, 125 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:59.639 but they came together when the body of Amber was 126 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.200 found and then the evidence tied back to Chelsea. So 127 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:08.039 that's how both of them came to be. Cameron Hooker, 128 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.399 this guy's known as the Girl in the Box kidnapper. 129 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:15.039 He was quite a family man. He had a secret 130 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:19.120 life of brutality. And this is a case that Dan, 131 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.559 I'm going to give you a little bit more on 132 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:27.320 because it struck me as totally obnoxious. He kept colleens 133 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:32.879 Stan confined in a coffin like box beneath his bed 134 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:37.000 for several years. And how he got Colleen was she 135 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.360 was on her way from northern California to attend a 136 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.799 wedding here in southern California, and she was hitchhiking and 137 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:51.399 she was stopped by Cameron hooker, and she looked in 138 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:53.519 the car. He offered her ride. She looked in the 139 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.519 car and she saw a woman who was Cameron's wife, 140 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:00.919 holding a little baby in her arms. So Colleen thought, 141 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.519 what the heck looks kosher. I'm going to go with it. 142 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.159 So he kept her in this box for three years 143 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.000 some people some reports claim it was just under four years, 144 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:14.480 but basically three years. It all came to a head 145 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.360 when his wife decided she was going to come clean 146 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:22.960 and no longer support his doings. This case struck me 147 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:29.080 because of the gross brutality of one particular event. Here's 148 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.639 what happened, many many times. He would invite his goofball 149 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:37.440 friends over to his house to watch him abuse a Colleen. 150 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.960 One particular evening, he stripped her. He put her in 151 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:46.080 a chair, tied her down, spread her legs. He warmed 152 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:50.600 up some turkey gravy, and he poured it into her legs, 153 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:56.679 into her vagina. He had his dog lick the gravy. 154 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.360 I don't know if that's appropriate to include in this interview, 155 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:03.159 but I just wanted to tell you why that case 156 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:04.240 struck me so hard. 157 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:11.799 What else did you determine from this absolutely deplorable disgusting case. 158 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.600 What else is it an example of in your mind? 159 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.279 Well, I guess what it really comes down to is 160 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:25.159 that he went unnoticed, undetected for god knows how many years. 161 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:29.120 I mean, there's reports. I found reports telling me that 162 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:32.080 it was three years. Some say seven years. I don't know. 163 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:34.480 I mean, I can't put my finger on an exact 164 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.200 amount of time. But it was many, many years. And 165 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.480 the neighbors didn't think anything of him. Nobody thought anything 166 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.120 of him. He blended right in with society. He was 167 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.120 a member of the country club, blah blah blah blah blah. 168 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:51.639 But yet there he is, this incredibly terrible human being. 169 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:58.879 It isn't extraordinary that the only way anyone finds out 170 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:07.799 is because the previously abused wife bonded with Colleen rather 171 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.440 than her own husband, more so than her own husband, 172 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:18.320 leading to a complete I will say, change of heart. Yes. 173 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.240 So what she did, to be specific for your audience, 174 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.679 is that she let Colleen out of the box and 175 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:28.799 she took her to a neighbor, and the neighbor thought 176 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.279 something was wrong because she could see all these people 177 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.759 coming and going, you know, for years, and she never 178 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.399 saw anybody except and the members of the family other 179 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.200 than you know, him and his wife. And she wondered 180 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.679 what happened that all these people came and went, but 181 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.919 yet there's no other members of the family. So when 182 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:53.080 Colleen escaped, she knocked on this woman's door and together 183 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.200 they went to the police. 184 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.399 Yes, an extraordinary story, really is. 185 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.759 It's sad. I mean, wow, think about that scene that 186 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:05.360 I just told you about, whoa Hello. 187 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.440 Well, there's so much more to that story as well, 188 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:15.440 because part of the captivity included a psychological twist in 189 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.240 terms of not only are you in a coffin underneath 190 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.639 a bed, but you believe that you are a sex slave, 191 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:27.759 and that if you are to escape, then this corporation, 192 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.559 the syndicate, would kill your in her entire family. 193 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:36.039 That's exactly right. He Cameron hounded that into her head 194 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:39.120 for years, and she believed it. In fact, there was 195 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:41.840 a period of time that she begged if she could 196 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.759 go see her parents, and he agreed, and she had 197 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.360 a visit with her parents, but he told her, you 198 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.159 open your mouth about anything that's going on, and when 199 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.039 we get back home, I will kill you. 200 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:59.039 Period. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to 201 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:04.440 hear the messages. You say that this book examines also 202 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:10.039 the rise of intinerant killers, killers who use mobility as 203 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.720 a weapon, and how law enforcement's growing ability to detect 204 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:20.720 and connect across jurisdiction has finally turned the tide. Can 205 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.919 you give us an example of a story in this 206 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:28.919 book which demonstrates some of these critical issues. 207 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:34.559 Probably Tommy Lynne sells the Coast to Coast Killer. Yeah, 208 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.399 I would say so that because what happened with him 209 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:42.039 is the cops got wind of what he was doing 210 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:47.720 and they finally managed to make a connection with crimes 211 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:51.000 that had happened, victims that were found dead and et cetera, 212 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.159 and they tied it back to him. He had a 213 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.480 staggering body count. He was one of the most horrifying 214 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.759 nomadic killers. I guess that's the best way of putting it. 215 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.799 You include Adam Leroy Lane talking about mobile killers, and 216 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.919 this is what you titled the Highway Killer. This is 217 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:17.519 a fascinating story because of the intersection again of fate 218 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:23.000 to stay, fluke of nature and the serial killer was 219 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:27.519 intercepted in someone's home by the parents. Can you tell 220 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.480 us a little bit about this story, but most importantly, 221 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.559 what it demonstrates and illustrates with this story. 222 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:41.080 Yes, so, how the story worked out is that Lane 223 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.159 as a highway killer. He went from city to city, 224 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:49.159 state to state, and he stumbled upon a home and 225 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:54.120 the back door was unlocked, and it was unlocked because 226 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.519 the daughter of the family. She had left the door 227 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.320 unlocked because she thought her her boyfriend and maybe had 228 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.960 forgotten the key and was coming in late, so she 229 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.879 left the door unlocked. He came in, he attacked the family. 230 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:14.120 He brutally assaulted the father, and it ended up that 231 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.399 between the father excuse, between the mother and the daughter, 232 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.519 they managed to nail the guy down. I just have 233 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:25.279 no way of saying it to you, but this guy 234 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.519 was an animal in the way he brutally assaulted everybody. 235 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:32.679 And he was a big guy. I mean, this wasn't 236 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.919 some you know, one hundred and ten pound weekling. He 237 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.799 was a big boy. And the father had a hard 238 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.679 time holding him down that the mother had to participate 239 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.279 in holding him down, but they did manage to do it, 240 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.480 and they did nail him. 241 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:50.799 It's a very vivid scene when you have this smaller 242 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:54.480 man with this bigger killer. But this smaller man is 243 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.120 determined to protect his family and his daughter specifically, and 244 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.519 he's got this guy in a headlock filled the police 245 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:02.720 outcome in that's right. 246 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.599 Yeah, an amazing story. 247 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.599 What were the most prevalent themes do you think that 248 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:13.519 were contained in these twenty six stories? Oh? Yeah. 249 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.960 David Parker Ray the toy box killer. He was a 250 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.799 sadistic predator. He took a sound proof trailer in New 251 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.720 Mexico desert and he turned it into a chamber of horrors. 252 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.880 He lured women into his so called toy box, where 253 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:40.759 they were subjected to unspeakable horrors that defied comprehension for years. 254 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.480 This went on for years, I mean, his hidden world 255 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:48.119 of cruelty went unnoticed and I can't tell you. I 256 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:51.200 think it was like five to eight years. And his 257 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:55.799 toy box, there are pictures online that your listeners can 258 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:02.119 can go Google search. It was an amazing contraption, this 259 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.799 toy box. And he was able to hang the victims, 260 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.839 shock treatments, all kinds of things in this quote unquote 261 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:11.759 toy box. 262 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:17.480 What surprised you the most while researching these stories? Which 263 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.920 story or what surprised you the most? 264 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.720 I guess, Dan, that's a tough one because each case 265 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.160 in the book carries its own kind of shock. I 266 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.400 guess if I had to pick, I'd say Israel Keys 267 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.759 really stood out to me because he wasn't just a killer. 268 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.039 He was methodical in the way that he almost that 269 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.960 was almost chilling. You know, I guess you realized he 270 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.000 buried kill kits across the country. You know, he had guns, ropes, 271 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.279 blah blah blah, so he could pick a state at random, 272 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.759 dig up one of the kill kits, and commit a 273 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:55.160 murder without leaving a trace of planning behind. Despite all 274 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.279 of that planning, he did did make mistakes. He used 275 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:03.559 the victims debit card, talk about stupid, left the digital footprint, 276 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.000 and from there investigators were able to trace his trail. 277 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.200 It's a perfect example of what the book is about. 278 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:17.400 Even the most disciplined, elusive predator eventually reveals himself one 279 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.319 way or the other. I guess if I had to 280 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:24.000 mention a second case, it would be Ted Bundy, because 281 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:29.240 he crafted an image of being intelligent, charming, even trustworthy 282 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.559 to some extent. He was a law student and appeared 283 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.559 to be from the outside world well put together. That 284 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.680 facade allowed him to lure victims right from college campuses. 285 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:46.079 That was both fascinating and terrifying how rapidly his mask 286 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.400 started to crack. One of his victims escaped by the 287 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:54.440 way and provided a police with a detailed description. Authorities 288 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.000 later identified his car and they found hairs and fibers 289 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.000 inside that that linked directly to the woman that he 290 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:05.039 had murdered. You know, for someone who considered himself so clever, 291 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.000 it was simple traceable evidence then nailed them. 292 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.440 You include a story that you titled the Amazon Review Killer, 293 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:23.240 particularly not lesser known story, but an incredible story. Nevertheless, 294 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:27.839 this is a todd coal hip, and this is a wealthy, 295 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:32.200 successful real estate agent with about one hundred acre estate. 296 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.799 And this is more recent cases when you talk about 297 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:40.480 Ted Bundy or Israel Keys. A lot of these lesser 298 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.119 known cases that you include in this book are more recent. 299 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:48.039 This one's twenty and sixteen, and a story and trial 300 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:53.680 evolve afterwards, so very very recent incredible crimes and killers. 301 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.720 Tell us a little bit about this Amazon review killer 302 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.920 and what this story straits. 303 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.839 Here's the thing with this guy. He after every kill 304 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.599 that he performed, he would post on Amazon. As an example, 305 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.799 this knife is the best dug on knife for slicing 306 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:21.680 a throat this bag is perfect for stuffing a body 307 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.920 into and dumping it into a lake. I mean, that's 308 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:26.720 how he got caught. 309 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:32.039 We also the correspondence, and again you write in this 310 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:39.119 book that advances in forensic technology, but also in things 311 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.759 like detecting phone locations through pings on towers, and also 312 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.000 just the recovery data recovery of text messages which are 313 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:54.960 incriminating and damning and provide crucial evidence to investigators. So 314 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.279 in this particular case, investigators were able to look at 315 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.039 previous his text and then be able to get a 316 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.079 search warrant. That's correct. 317 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.799 Yeah, he made His big mistake was going on Amazon. 318 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:11.160 That was the mistake. 319 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.799 What you read about, though, is this extraordinary case is 320 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:22.119 that this murderous person could have been stopped at least 321 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.960 he was recognized or at least be recognized. This person 322 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:32.000 had moved to Germany with his parents, with his father specifically, 323 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:38.079 and committed crimes in Germany at that time. Because of 324 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.359 his age, he was not given a lengthy term. He 325 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.799 was given a six year reformatory sentence rather than the 326 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.079 tenure minimum that he would have faced as this juvenile 327 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.880 in Germany. From that if he would have been stopped. 328 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.720 If he would have been imprisoned for life, none of 329 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.680 this rest of this story we'd be reading right now. 330 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.079 That's absolutely true, And there is no explanation that I 331 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.599 can find anywhere of why his sentence was that light. 332 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:17.000 Well, it seems like I know from many jurisdictions outside 333 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.079 of the US that there is a difference in manslaughter 334 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:26.519 and murder and the criteria for manslaughter versus murder, so 335 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.960 that possibly would be a reason for the lenient sentencing. 336 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.440 But you also say that because he was a juvenile 337 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:39.160 he received a lighter sentence. 338 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:44.319 That's also true. But you know, I don't know how 339 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.440 your listeners feel about a murderer, but to me, a murderer, 340 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:54.039 whether he's eighteen years old or seventy eight years old, 341 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:56.920 he's still a murderer and needs to be dealt with 342 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:57.400 that way. 343 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.359 Well that I think you would get a lot of 344 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:04.160 people to agree with that, And that is a contentious 345 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:08.599 issue in so many American states, is what exactly is 346 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:14.319 that age that you would give someone a life sentence 347 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.839 with no possibility of parole. So there are various states 348 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:23.200 where certainly people of eighteen or less would be given 349 00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:28.920 sentences that were in that sort of range murder, first 350 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.839 degree murder, second degree murder, but given a life sentence 351 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:36.960 with no possibility of parole. So I believe many jurisdictions Canada, 352 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:42.720 Germany to UK many countries have maximum sentences that do 353 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:50.240 not include no parole eligibility whatsoever, actual life, actual life sentences. 354 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:56.519 You have a story entitled Tagged and This Khalil Wheeler Weaver. 355 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:03.000 This is a fascinating story with some complex issues at heart. 356 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.400 Can you tell us a little bit about Tagged? Yeah? 357 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:14.200 He he basically weaponized social media to identify and lure 358 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:21.039 of vulnerable women. He used in online interactions to gain 359 00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:25.960 their trust and their comfort level, and then he set 360 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:31.079 deadly traps where he brutally murdered them and across all 361 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:36.480 of New Jersey. His crimes exposed a dark intersection in 362 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:42.960 my humble opinion of digital anonminity and real world violence, 363 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:47.559 which showed how easily technology could be twisted into a 364 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:49.279 pool of violence. 365 00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:54.480 Also, the issue that comes in this story dramatically is 366 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:58.519 that when a woman is this Tiffany Taylor is attacked, 367 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:05.039 she goes to police with evidence, with damning evidence, and 368 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:12.039 the police turn her away and dismiss her claims. Completely. 369 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:13.480 That's correct. 370 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:17.119 So this story doesn't get a resolve. The killer is 371 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:23.680 not apprehended until the community sympathizes with a victim who 372 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:27.000 is not a sex worker. Can you tell us about 373 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:33.160 this dramatic difference in how police and society treat victims 374 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:33.599 of crime. 375 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:39.880 Well, from what I have learned writing this book is 376 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:46.359 that if there's an obvious appearance level of a woman 377 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:54.480 being a sex worker, some cops will discount her testimony 378 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:59.599 of what she claims happened. I don't believe that's the 379 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.799 right thing to do. It's back to what I said before. 380 00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:06.200 A killer is a killer regardless of the clothes he 381 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.759 wears or how old he or she may be, and 382 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.519 that's really a problem in our society. 383 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:18.079 In my opinion, this story is fascinating for readers to 384 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.799 discover because there really are people that are looking out 385 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:27.960 for their family member and they take action. And what 386 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.440 they do is that they go to social media and 387 00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:33.920 they try to set up this person, to get this 388 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:39.599 person to reveal himself. It's very fascinating this effort that 389 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:45.440 this family puts towards seeking justice for themselves and their 390 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.279 family member. That's right. 391 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.559 The family played a very important role and it worked. 392 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.279 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these 393 00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:02.240 messages in all of these case I know it must 394 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:07.839 have been hard doing that this original investigation and research. 395 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:15.400 Was there any case that affected you personally? Yeah? 396 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:20.400 What really stays with me isn't just the killers, it's 397 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:25.240 the families. Because reading about the investigation is one thing, 398 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.559 but you know, hearing how the family fought for answers, 399 00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:33.359 how they lived with that uncertainty, and then how justice 400 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.359 finally arrived, it's impossible not to feel the weight of that. 401 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.839