Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. They blended in, they raised families, held steady jobs,
Speaker 2: and hid in plain sight. But behind the mask of normalcy,
Speaker 2: they were monsters responsible for decades of terror, pain and death.
Speaker 2: Every Killer Leads a Trace is a chilling now of
Speaker 2: nonfiction thriller that exposes moments that led to the shocking,
Speaker 2: unmasking and ultimate capture of twenty six of America's most
Speaker 2: elusive killers. From accidental slips to cutting edge forensic breakthroughs,
Speaker 2: each chapter reveals how justice caught up with the murderers
Speaker 2: who thought they'd never be found. Meticulously researched and drawn
Speaker 2: from court records, autopsy reports, FBI case files, and first
Speaker 2: hand interviews with investigators and victims families, this book is
Speaker 2: a haunting journey through deception, violence, and the relentless pursuit
Speaker 2: of truth. These are not just stories of murder. They
Speaker 2: are blueprints of how justice, though often delayed, is never
Speaker 2: truly denied. They got away with murder until they didn't.
Speaker 2: The book they were featuring this evening is Every Killer
Speaker 2: Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes that fire expose the
Speaker 2: most elusive killers, with my special guest author Dennis Carson.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 2: this interview. Dennis Carson, You're very welcome and thank you
Speaker 2: for having me. Thank you so much. Now, this book,
Speaker 2: Every Killer Leads a Trace, The fatal mistakes that finally
Speaker 2: exposed America's most elusive killers. You're right that Every Killer
Speaker 2: Leads a Trace offers a compelling exploration of the darkest
Speaker 2: recesses of human behavior. Chronicling twenty six chilling true crime
Speaker 2: cases from modern history and is a tribute to the
Speaker 2: pursuit of justice, the resilience of survivors, and the relentless
Speaker 2: efforts of those who seek truth in the aftermath of horror.
Speaker 2: Each chapter dissects the final fatal act that ultimately exposed
Speaker 2: the murder on unraveled their ability to hide in plain sight.
Speaker 2: Tell us why you wrote this book. What are the
Speaker 2: origins of this book?
Speaker 3: Well, that's a really important question. I wrote Every Killer
Speaker 3: Leaves a Trace because I wanted to challenge the myth
Speaker 3: of the so called perfect killer. You know, for years
Speaker 3: we've seen this narrative that some murders are just too clever,
Speaker 3: too elusive to ever be caught. But when you look closely,
Speaker 3: every single one of them made a mistake. And that
Speaker 3: mistake is whether it's a trace of DNA, a careless decision,
Speaker 3: or a small clue investigators refused to look at. That's
Speaker 3: finally what took them down. But you know, actually, Dan,
Speaker 3: there's another side to it. The book isn't just about
Speaker 3: crime scenes and evidence. It's about the families and the
Speaker 3: investigators who refused silence, mothers who wouldn't let their children's
Speaker 3: stories be buried, to refuse to give up even when
Speaker 3: the case went cold. You know, in interviewing all these people,
Speaker 3: it was their persistence, combined with the rise of forensic science,
Speaker 3: that ultimately forced the truth to come into the light.
Speaker 3: But clearly, I didn't write this book to glorify killers.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's not a chance in heck. I wrote
Speaker 3: it to honor the victims, to shine a light on resilience,
Speaker 3: and to remind readers that justice is never really out
Speaker 3: of reach. The dead do speak if we're willing to
Speaker 3: listen to them.
Speaker 2: Now, give us a little bit of your background before
Speaker 2: you endeavored to do this project. I know that you
Speaker 2: had a book under a pen name that you had
Speaker 2: written previously. But also you speak about this team that
Speaker 2: you have of specialists. Can you tell us about this
Speaker 2: team that supports you in your writing.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, this gentleman has died about two years ago, and
Speaker 3: that was the La County Corn to the Stars, Ed Winter.
Speaker 3: He handled cases like Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant,
Speaker 3: Nipsey Hustle, blah blah blah blah. But like I said, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: my friend Ed did die two years ago. In any event,
Speaker 3: to ensure the autestent, authenticity and depth of my narrative,
Speaker 3: I work with Dottie Owens. She's the renowned former Idaho coroner.
Speaker 3: She retired about eight months ago, and Lina Evans, Alabama's
Speaker 3: current coroner. I love Lina because she's known for her
Speaker 3: on wavering pursuit of justice. I mean, she's a real
Speaker 3: dog in and you know, don't let go kind of person.
Speaker 3: I also work with a judge in New York who
Speaker 3: was a former district attorney, and another two other members
Speaker 3: of the team are Wesley Jennings, one of the world's
Speaker 3: leading criminologists, and doctor Ashley Wellman. She's a certified forensic
Speaker 3: death investigator. So Dan, that's basically the team. And as
Speaker 3: we move on. As I moved on in each case,
Speaker 3: I did interview different investigators, corners and the like, and
Speaker 3: families for that matter.
Speaker 2: Now tell us the criteria for better for lack of
Speaker 2: a better term, or the reasons for including all of
Speaker 2: these twenty six stories, And with that, could you give
Speaker 2: us the contents of this incredible collection.
Speaker 3: I looked at it that, Okay, some of these people
Speaker 3: are household names. Ted Bundy as an example, you know,
Speaker 3: we know about him, but so many of them are
Speaker 3: just not household names. And I felt that the general
Speaker 3: public interested in true crime should know about all these
Speaker 3: other people, and I picked twenty six. You'll notice that
Speaker 3: twenty five of the twenty six are male. There's only
Speaker 3: one female, and I only included her because she was
Speaker 3: the strongest of all the female killers. Believe it or not,
Speaker 3: So would you like me to run down some of
Speaker 3: these twenty six cases, yes please, okay sure. Starting off
Speaker 3: with Rodney Alcohola. He's known as the Dating Game Killer.
Speaker 3: He was a smooth talking predator. He did his murders
Speaker 3: behind a smile on national television, so the girls, the women,
Speaker 3: you know, felt comfortable with him. I mean, this clown
Speaker 3: was on TV. He had to be okay. Then there's
Speaker 3: Angel Risendies. He's known as the Railroad Killer. He was
Speaker 3: a drifter by nature. He moved between the US and Mexico,
Speaker 3: blending into the shadows as he rode the trains. He
Speaker 3: broke into homes along the tracks, turning ordinary houses into
Speaker 3: scenes of unspeakable violence. I mean it was pretty dog
Speaker 3: on bad. John Wacey Gasey the killer clown. This guy
Speaker 3: really gets you. He's a seemingly upstanding neighbor whose playful
Speaker 3: clown prosanna earned him trust at children's parties and community events.
Speaker 3: He blended right in. Everybody loved him. He was the clown,
Speaker 3: you know. But in the end, he abducted and lured
Speaker 3: countless men I don't remember, it was something like twenty
Speaker 3: into his home and brutally assaulted them and raped them,
Speaker 3: and the bodies were found in his addict for a
Speaker 3: smell by one of the neighbors discovered. Then there's John
Speaker 3: Albert Gardner, the third, known as the San Diego rapist
Speaker 3: and killer. He was a convicted sex offender. He roamed
Speaker 3: suburban neighborhoods hunting for vulnerable young girls. His predatory violence
Speaker 3: culminated with the murders of Chelsea King and Amber du Bois.
Speaker 3: And they were a few years apart, those two murders,
Speaker 3: but they came together when the body of Amber was
Speaker 3: found and then the evidence tied back to Chelsea. So
Speaker 3: that's how both of them came to be. Cameron Hooker,
Speaker 3: this guy's known as the Girl in the Box kidnapper.
Speaker 3: He was quite a family man. He had a secret
Speaker 3: life of brutality. And this is a case that Dan,
Speaker 3: I'm going to give you a little bit more on
Speaker 3: because it struck me as totally obnoxious. He kept colleens
Speaker 3: Stan confined in a coffin like box beneath his bed
Speaker 3: for several years. And how he got Colleen was she
Speaker 3: was on her way from northern California to attend a
Speaker 3: wedding here in southern California, and she was hitchhiking and
Speaker 3: she was stopped by Cameron hooker, and she looked in
Speaker 3: the car. He offered her ride. She looked in the
Speaker 3: car and she saw a woman who was Cameron's wife,
Speaker 3: holding a little baby in her arms. So Colleen thought,
Speaker 3: what the heck looks kosher. I'm going to go with it.
Speaker 3: So he kept her in this box for three years
Speaker 3: some people some reports claim it was just under four years,
Speaker 3: but basically three years. It all came to a head
Speaker 3: when his wife decided she was going to come clean
Speaker 3: and no longer support his doings. This case struck me
Speaker 3: because of the gross brutality of one particular event. Here's
Speaker 3: what happened, many many times. He would invite his goofball
Speaker 3: friends over to his house to watch him abuse a Colleen.
Speaker 3: One particular evening, he stripped her. He put her in
Speaker 3: a chair, tied her down, spread her legs. He warmed
Speaker 3: up some turkey gravy, and he poured it into her legs,
Speaker 3: into her vagina. He had his dog lick the gravy.
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's appropriate to include in this interview,
Speaker 3: but I just wanted to tell you why that case
Speaker 3: struck me so hard.
Speaker 2: What else did you determine from this absolutely deplorable disgusting case.
Speaker 2: What else is it an example of in your mind?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess what it really comes down to is
Speaker 3: that he went unnoticed, undetected for god knows how many years.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's reports. I found reports telling me that
Speaker 3: it was three years. Some say seven years. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't put my finger on an exact
Speaker 3: amount of time. But it was many, many years. And
Speaker 3: the neighbors didn't think anything of him. Nobody thought anything
Speaker 3: of him. He blended right in with society. He was
Speaker 3: a member of the country club, blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: But yet there he is, this incredibly terrible human being.
Speaker 2: It isn't extraordinary that the only way anyone finds out
Speaker 2: is because the previously abused wife bonded with Colleen rather
Speaker 2: than her own husband, more so than her own husband,
Speaker 2: leading to a complete I will say, change of heart. Yes.
Speaker 3: So what she did, to be specific for your audience,
Speaker 3: is that she let Colleen out of the box and
Speaker 3: she took her to a neighbor, and the neighbor thought
Speaker 3: something was wrong because she could see all these people
Speaker 3: coming and going, you know, for years, and she never
Speaker 3: saw anybody except and the members of the family other
Speaker 3: than you know, him and his wife. And she wondered
Speaker 3: what happened that all these people came and went, but
Speaker 3: yet there's no other members of the family. So when
Speaker 3: Colleen escaped, she knocked on this woman's door and together
Speaker 3: they went to the police.
Speaker 2: Yes, an extraordinary story, really is.
Speaker 3: It's sad. I mean, wow, think about that scene that
Speaker 3: I just told you about, whoa Hello.
Speaker 2: Well, there's so much more to that story as well,
Speaker 2: because part of the captivity included a psychological twist in
Speaker 2: terms of not only are you in a coffin underneath
Speaker 2: a bed, but you believe that you are a sex slave,
Speaker 2: and that if you are to escape, then this corporation,
Speaker 2: the syndicate, would kill your in her entire family.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. He Cameron hounded that into her head
Speaker 3: for years, and she believed it. In fact, there was
Speaker 3: a period of time that she begged if she could
Speaker 3: go see her parents, and he agreed, and she had
Speaker 3: a visit with her parents, but he told her, you
Speaker 3: open your mouth about anything that's going on, and when
Speaker 3: we get back home, I will kill you.
Speaker 2: Period. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
Speaker 2: hear the messages. You say that this book examines also
Speaker 2: the rise of intinerant killers, killers who use mobility as
Speaker 2: a weapon, and how law enforcement's growing ability to detect
Speaker 2: and connect across jurisdiction has finally turned the tide. Can
Speaker 2: you give us an example of a story in this
Speaker 2: book which demonstrates some of these critical issues.
Speaker 3: Probably Tommy Lynne sells the Coast to Coast Killer. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I would say so that because what happened with him
Speaker 3: is the cops got wind of what he was doing
Speaker 3: and they finally managed to make a connection with crimes
Speaker 3: that had happened, victims that were found dead and et cetera,
Speaker 3: and they tied it back to him. He had a
Speaker 3: staggering body count. He was one of the most horrifying
Speaker 3: nomadic killers. I guess that's the best way of putting it.
Speaker 2: You include Adam Leroy Lane talking about mobile killers, and
Speaker 2: this is what you titled the Highway Killer. This is
Speaker 2: a fascinating story because of the intersection again of fate
Speaker 2: to stay, fluke of nature and the serial killer was
Speaker 2: intercepted in someone's home by the parents. Can you tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about this story, but most importantly,
Speaker 2: what it demonstrates and illustrates with this story.
Speaker 3: Yes, so, how the story worked out is that Lane
Speaker 3: as a highway killer. He went from city to city,
Speaker 3: state to state, and he stumbled upon a home and
Speaker 3: the back door was unlocked, and it was unlocked because
Speaker 3: the daughter of the family. She had left the door
Speaker 3: unlocked because she thought her her boyfriend and maybe had
Speaker 3: forgotten the key and was coming in late, so she
Speaker 3: left the door unlocked. He came in, he attacked the family.
Speaker 3: He brutally assaulted the father, and it ended up that
Speaker 3: between the father excuse, between the mother and the daughter,
Speaker 3: they managed to nail the guy down. I just have
Speaker 3: no way of saying it to you, but this guy
Speaker 3: was an animal in the way he brutally assaulted everybody.
Speaker 3: And he was a big guy. I mean, this wasn't
Speaker 3: some you know, one hundred and ten pound weekling. He
Speaker 3: was a big boy. And the father had a hard
Speaker 3: time holding him down that the mother had to participate
Speaker 3: in holding him down, but they did manage to do it,
Speaker 3: and they did nail him.
Speaker 2: It's a very vivid scene when you have this smaller
Speaker 2: man with this bigger killer. But this smaller man is
Speaker 2: determined to protect his family and his daughter specifically, and
Speaker 2: he's got this guy in a headlock filled the police
Speaker 2: outcome in that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, an amazing story.
Speaker 2: What were the most prevalent themes do you think that
Speaker 2: were contained in these twenty six stories? Oh? Yeah.
Speaker 3: David Parker Ray the toy box killer. He was a
Speaker 3: sadistic predator. He took a sound proof trailer in New
Speaker 3: Mexico desert and he turned it into a chamber of horrors.
Speaker 3: He lured women into his so called toy box, where
Speaker 3: they were subjected to unspeakable horrors that defied comprehension for years.
Speaker 3: This went on for years, I mean, his hidden world
Speaker 3: of cruelty went unnoticed and I can't tell you. I
Speaker 3: think it was like five to eight years. And his
Speaker 3: toy box, there are pictures online that your listeners can
Speaker 3: can go Google search. It was an amazing contraption, this
Speaker 3: toy box. And he was able to hang the victims,
Speaker 3: shock treatments, all kinds of things in this quote unquote
Speaker 3: toy box.
Speaker 2: What surprised you the most while researching these stories? Which
Speaker 2: story or what surprised you the most?
Speaker 3: I guess, Dan, that's a tough one because each case
Speaker 3: in the book carries its own kind of shock. I
Speaker 3: guess if I had to pick, I'd say Israel Keys
Speaker 3: really stood out to me because he wasn't just a killer.
Speaker 3: He was methodical in the way that he almost that
Speaker 3: was almost chilling. You know, I guess you realized he
Speaker 3: buried kill kits across the country. You know, he had guns, ropes,
Speaker 3: blah blah blah, so he could pick a state at random,
Speaker 3: dig up one of the kill kits, and commit a
Speaker 3: murder without leaving a trace of planning behind. Despite all
Speaker 3: of that planning, he did did make mistakes. He used
Speaker 3: the victims debit card, talk about stupid, left the digital footprint,
Speaker 3: and from there investigators were able to trace his trail.
Speaker 3: It's a perfect example of what the book is about.
Speaker 3: Even the most disciplined, elusive predator eventually reveals himself one
Speaker 3: way or the other. I guess if I had to
Speaker 3: mention a second case, it would be Ted Bundy, because
Speaker 3: he crafted an image of being intelligent, charming, even trustworthy
Speaker 3: to some extent. He was a law student and appeared
Speaker 3: to be from the outside world well put together. That
Speaker 3: facade allowed him to lure victims right from college campuses.
Speaker 3: That was both fascinating and terrifying how rapidly his mask
Speaker 3: started to crack. One of his victims escaped by the
Speaker 3: way and provided a police with a detailed description. Authorities
Speaker 3: later identified his car and they found hairs and fibers
Speaker 3: inside that that linked directly to the woman that he
Speaker 3: had murdered. You know, for someone who considered himself so clever,
Speaker 3: it was simple traceable evidence then nailed them.
Speaker 2: You include a story that you titled the Amazon Review Killer,
Speaker 2: particularly not lesser known story, but an incredible story. Nevertheless,
Speaker 2: this is a todd coal hip, and this is a wealthy,
Speaker 2: successful real estate agent with about one hundred acre estate.
Speaker 2: And this is more recent cases when you talk about
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy or Israel Keys. A lot of these lesser
Speaker 2: known cases that you include in this book are more recent.
Speaker 2: This one's twenty and sixteen, and a story and trial
Speaker 2: evolve afterwards, so very very recent incredible crimes and killers.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about this Amazon review killer
Speaker 2: and what this story straits.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing with this guy. He after every kill
Speaker 3: that he performed, he would post on Amazon. As an example,
Speaker 3: this knife is the best dug on knife for slicing
Speaker 3: a throat this bag is perfect for stuffing a body
Speaker 3: into and dumping it into a lake. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: how he got caught.
Speaker 2: We also the correspondence, and again you write in this
Speaker 2: book that advances in forensic technology, but also in things
Speaker 2: like detecting phone locations through pings on towers, and also
Speaker 2: just the recovery data recovery of text messages which are
Speaker 2: incriminating and damning and provide crucial evidence to investigators. So
Speaker 2: in this particular case, investigators were able to look at
Speaker 2: previous his text and then be able to get a
Speaker 2: search warrant. That's correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he made His big mistake was going on Amazon.
Speaker 3: That was the mistake.
Speaker 2: What you read about, though, is this extraordinary case is
Speaker 2: that this murderous person could have been stopped at least
Speaker 2: he was recognized or at least be recognized. This person
Speaker 2: had moved to Germany with his parents, with his father specifically,
Speaker 2: and committed crimes in Germany at that time. Because of
Speaker 2: his age, he was not given a lengthy term. He
Speaker 2: was given a six year reformatory sentence rather than the
Speaker 2: tenure minimum that he would have faced as this juvenile
Speaker 2: in Germany. From that if he would have been stopped.
Speaker 2: If he would have been imprisoned for life, none of
Speaker 2: this rest of this story we'd be reading right now.
Speaker 3: That's absolutely true, And there is no explanation that I
Speaker 3: can find anywhere of why his sentence was that light.
Speaker 2: Well, it seems like I know from many jurisdictions outside
Speaker 2: of the US that there is a difference in manslaughter
Speaker 2: and murder and the criteria for manslaughter versus murder, so
Speaker 2: that possibly would be a reason for the lenient sentencing.
Speaker 2: But you also say that because he was a juvenile
Speaker 2: he received a lighter sentence.
Speaker 3: That's also true. But you know, I don't know how
Speaker 3: your listeners feel about a murderer, but to me, a murderer,
Speaker 3: whether he's eighteen years old or seventy eight years old,
Speaker 3: he's still a murderer and needs to be dealt with
Speaker 3: that way.
Speaker 2: Well that I think you would get a lot of
Speaker 2: people to agree with that, And that is a contentious
Speaker 2: issue in so many American states, is what exactly is
Speaker 2: that age that you would give someone a life sentence
Speaker 2: with no possibility of parole. So there are various states
Speaker 2: where certainly people of eighteen or less would be given
Speaker 2: sentences that were in that sort of range murder, first
Speaker 2: degree murder, second degree murder, but given a life sentence
Speaker 2: with no possibility of parole. So I believe many jurisdictions Canada,
Speaker 2: Germany to UK many countries have maximum sentences that do
Speaker 2: not include no parole eligibility whatsoever, actual life, actual life sentences.
Speaker 2: You have a story entitled Tagged and This Khalil Wheeler Weaver.
Speaker 2: This is a fascinating story with some complex issues at heart.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about Tagged? Yeah?
Speaker 3: He he basically weaponized social media to identify and lure
Speaker 3: of vulnerable women. He used in online interactions to gain
Speaker 3: their trust and their comfort level, and then he set
Speaker 3: deadly traps where he brutally murdered them and across all
Speaker 3: of New Jersey. His crimes exposed a dark intersection in
Speaker 3: my humble opinion of digital anonminity and real world violence,
Speaker 3: which showed how easily technology could be twisted into a
Speaker 3: pool of violence.
Speaker 2: Also, the issue that comes in this story dramatically is
Speaker 2: that when a woman is this Tiffany Taylor is attacked,
Speaker 2: she goes to police with evidence, with damning evidence, and
Speaker 2: the police turn her away and dismiss her claims. Completely.
Speaker 3: That's correct.
Speaker 2: So this story doesn't get a resolve. The killer is
Speaker 2: not apprehended until the community sympathizes with a victim who
Speaker 2: is not a sex worker. Can you tell us about
Speaker 2: this dramatic difference in how police and society treat victims
Speaker 2: of crime.
Speaker 3: Well, from what I have learned writing this book is
Speaker 3: that if there's an obvious appearance level of a woman
Speaker 3: being a sex worker, some cops will discount her testimony
Speaker 3: of what she claims happened. I don't believe that's the
Speaker 3: right thing to do. It's back to what I said before.
Speaker 3: A killer is a killer regardless of the clothes he
Speaker 3: wears or how old he or she may be, and
Speaker 3: that's really a problem in our society.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, this story is fascinating for readers to
Speaker 2: discover because there really are people that are looking out
Speaker 2: for their family member and they take action. And what
Speaker 2: they do is that they go to social media and
Speaker 2: they try to set up this person, to get this
Speaker 2: person to reveal himself. It's very fascinating this effort that
Speaker 2: this family puts towards seeking justice for themselves and their
Speaker 2: family member. That's right.
Speaker 3: The family played a very important role and it worked.
Speaker 2: That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
Speaker 2: messages in all of these case I know it must
Speaker 2: have been hard doing that this original investigation and research.
Speaker 2: Was there any case that affected you personally? Yeah?
Speaker 3: What really stays with me isn't just the killers, it's
Speaker 3: the families. Because reading about the investigation is one thing,
Speaker 3: but you know, hearing how the family fought for answers,
Speaker 3: how they lived with that uncertainty, and then how justice
Speaker 3: finally arrived, it's impossible not to feel the weight of that.
Speaker 3: These are not just crime stories, they're human stories. You know,
Speaker 3: behind every headline there's a daughter, a sister, a friend
Speaker 3: whose life was taken and families who carry that grief forever.
Speaker 3: I mean, they can't get rid of that grief. It's
Speaker 3: there forever. And for me, that's what makes this work meaningful.
Speaker 3: It's about giving those voices space, not just they killers.
Speaker 3: And that's really important to me. So if you ask
Speaker 3: me which case really affected me the most, it would
Speaker 3: probably Bundy, because behind his infamous reputation and mythological image,
Speaker 3: there was a real young woman who lost her real
Speaker 3: young women plural, who lost their lives. Bundy projected this
Speaker 3: aura of charm intelligence, successfully deceiving a lot of women
Speaker 3: for god knows how long. But what the most important
Speaker 3: haunting thing to know is how he targeted his students.
Speaker 3: They were women with bright futures. They trusted him during
Speaker 3: what was seemingly normal everyday moments. He invited him for
Speaker 3: a drink out to dinner. Bundy is a class act
Speaker 3: by himself. In so far as serial killers.
Speaker 2: You read about a lesser known sterial killer in chapter sixteen,
Speaker 2: International serial killer Harold David Hallman, the third. This is
Speaker 2: very interesting. Again a more recent case December fourth, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: This is very interesting in that the perpetrator decided to
Speaker 2: pick on We talk about sex workers, we talk about
Speaker 2: people that matter less in society. Families not always support of.
Speaker 2: This is a different type of vulnerability that this perpetrator
Speaker 2: decided to take advantage of, didn't he. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2: He was looking at women. He would stop a woman
Speaker 2: and analyze her, whether it was at a restaurant, bus stop, whatever,
Speaker 2: and say I.
Speaker 3: Could do her. And he just had this instantaneous picture
Speaker 3: in his mind that she was his next victim. And
Speaker 3: that's what he did. And I mean he did it internationally,
Speaker 3: like you said, international serial killer, United States and abroad.
Speaker 3: So he was really a piece of work.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that this there's correspondence. She had spoken to
Speaker 2: her friend, This Erica Jeen Schultz, twenty six year old,
Speaker 2: she had met someone online and she had shared that
Speaker 2: information with a friend. So police were able to see
Speaker 2: that there was this correspondence with Harold David Hallman. They
Speaker 2: didn't get to him right away, but they were able
Speaker 2: to track his movements because his phone was found. And
Speaker 2: so as I mentioned this developments in being able to
Speaker 2: use this new type of digital evidence to be able
Speaker 2: to crack and to also convict a serial killer like
Speaker 2: David Hallman.
Speaker 3: The third well, you know, talk about cereal excuse me,
Speaker 3: cellular that was one of the elements and pieces of
Speaker 3: evidence in the Idaho murders.
Speaker 2: Give us some examples of some of the dramatic mistakes
Speaker 2: that were made by some of these killers that even
Speaker 2: in your research, seemed to be so unique that you
Speaker 2: included them in this book.
Speaker 3: You know, I think some of it is just back
Speaker 3: to what we were just talking a couple seconds ago.
Speaker 3: It's about the advantages in technology in forensic science. As
Speaker 3: I mentioned, earlier, my good friend, the late Ed Winter,
Speaker 3: we talked about at length what the La County Corner
Speaker 3: was able to put together through advancements in forensic science.
Speaker 3: I guess let me elaborate a little bit. When Ed
Speaker 3: first joined the LA County Corner's office, God knows, I
Speaker 3: guess that was ten fifteen years earlier, that science wasn't
Speaker 3: to the point where it is today, and that science
Speaker 3: has helped did help him immensely in solving some of
Speaker 3: these cases. And so some of these cases are stupid. Dan,
Speaker 3: I'm going to digress for just a second and tell
Speaker 3: you about a case that I did not write about
Speaker 3: that involved in. Is that okay, absolutely okay, this might
Speaker 3: bring a smile to your face. So here's the scene.
Speaker 3: So this given day, I was supposed to have lunch
Speaker 3: at Philipe's French Tip sandwich place, very famous in downtown
Speaker 3: LA and I was supposed to have lunch with d
Speaker 3: that day. So, as the story goes, he was in
Speaker 3: his office alone early that morning, very unusual that nobody
Speaker 3: was there to answer the phone but him. He picked
Speaker 3: up the phone and this gentleman identified himself and he said,
Speaker 3: my name is and I'll just use the first name David,
Speaker 3: and I'm a chef here in Los Angeles, and I
Speaker 3: had an argument with my wife and I cut her
Speaker 3: up into pieces, a lot of pieces, and I have
Speaker 3: been boiling her in the large vats that I have
Speaker 3: in my kitchen, and I boiled her for her gaudy
Speaker 3: parts for four days. As I'm talking to you, I'm
Speaker 3: eating her arm.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Okay, So now I'm going to fast forward to Felipe's
Speaker 3: and Ed walking in the door and couldn't wait to
Speaker 3: tell me the story. Okay. So when he finished, I
Speaker 3: looked at him with a tiny smile on my face
Speaker 3: and I said, you didn't happen to ask him if
Speaker 3: he made a side dish to go with the arm?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean these people are straight. And you
Speaker 3: know what his answer was, Yes?
Speaker 2: What are some of the most dramatic mistakes? Are the
Speaker 2: most common mistakes that these killers make? In this research
Speaker 2: that you've done for this book.
Speaker 3: I guess two things surprised me the most. First, the
Speaker 3: arrogance of the killers. So many of them believe they
Speaker 3: were untouchable. That's a case closed. You're never going to
Speaker 3: get me. Second, the persistence of the families and the
Speaker 3: investigators that I spoke with, some mothers, sisters. Detectives spent
Speaker 3: decades fighting for answers, But it was their resilience and technology,
Speaker 3: not the killers violence that define their stories. The persistence
Speaker 3: is what finally forced the truth into light, and that
Speaker 3: really truck me. You know, it was the truth that
Speaker 3: brought them down.
Speaker 2: The truth brought them down. But there are cases in
Speaker 2: this book as well where dogged law enforcement that never
Speaker 2: gave up, family members that never gave up. That's right,
Speaker 2: victims that utilized We didn't talk about some of the
Speaker 2: efforts that some of the people did that would have
Speaker 2: ended up being dead. But they had a plan to
Speaker 2: convince that killer that they should be let go, that
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be able to inform on them to police, right,
Speaker 2: did anything, employed any technique and tactic to escape the
Speaker 2: one person was again closing up to the killer, at
Speaker 2: least in his mind, but at the same time was
Speaker 2: double jointed and was plotting her escape. She did get
Speaker 2: into this room, locked the door because she was able
Speaker 2: to free herself from those handcuffs, so she had the
Speaker 2: wherewithal and the state of mind to be able to
Speaker 2: think that I'm going to be a survivor. I am
Speaker 2: going to survive and I'm going to do whatever it
Speaker 2: takes to escape. And she did.
Speaker 3: That's right. You know, you got to look at the
Speaker 3: at the victims. And I said it a few minutes ago.
Speaker 3: One of the things that the thing that really got
Speaker 3: me more than the killers themselves was the victims and
Speaker 3: the victims' families, how they participated in providing you know, support,
Speaker 3: evidence and et cetera. It was just amazing, it really was.
Speaker 3: And you know, I can't tell you how many detectives
Speaker 3: in my career I've interviewed. I've lost count, but some
Speaker 3: of them are were very forthcoming and others were don't
Speaker 3: bother me. I'm a detective, and you know that doesn't work.
Speaker 3: What works is cooperation between law enforcement, the judicial system,
Speaker 3: and the families. And if you don't have that, you're
Speaker 3: not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2: But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these
Speaker 2: messages you talk about that these killers make clear mistakes
Speaker 2: because many of them, many many of these stories feature
Speaker 2: a killer that believes he's invincible, and he believes he's
Speaker 2: invincible because he's getting away with murders. You have one
Speaker 2: where the person again a disgusting, deplorable murder, but the
Speaker 2: next day he's back at it. There's many killers that
Speaker 2: don't spend much time. They are dedicated to their murderous activities.
Speaker 2: So you really have a lot of cases where, especially
Speaker 2: in the past, where jurisdictions didn't communicate the state of
Speaker 2: technology was primitive, and so these people felt emboldened. Ramarrez,
Speaker 2: Richard Ramirez felt like he had the luck of Satan
Speaker 2: behind him because doors were unlocked. Many of these victim's
Speaker 2: mistakes were that they were unlocked doors.
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, and innocent, innocent people, just girls
Speaker 3: walking down the street that one of these predators would
Speaker 3: see and go, oh, there's my next Mark. Honest to god, Dan,
Speaker 3: this book really took a lot out of me. I'm
Speaker 3: going to digress on this book for just a moment.
Speaker 3: My next book is going to really shock you because
Speaker 3: it's proof positive that the judicial system failed. Case closed,
Speaker 3: and this.
Speaker 2: Is a case involving the death penalty.
Speaker 3: Okay, I have to be vague obviously, because you know
Speaker 3: the book is not out yet, but it involves it's
Speaker 3: two cases. One was a woman that was found and
Speaker 3: murdered and the corner ruled it as accidental death. The
Speaker 3: second case involves a gentleman who was left handed, could
Speaker 3: not hold anything in his left hand. He was found
Speaker 3: in his recliner with a bullet hole to the left
Speaker 3: side of his head, which means that he would have
Speaker 3: had to hold the gun in his right hand, put
Speaker 3: it around the back of his head and shoot himself.
Speaker 3: And let's assume he was even able to do that,
Speaker 3: the gun would have flown out into the room. But
Speaker 3: the pictures that the detectives have of the crime scene
Speaker 3: shows him in his recliner with that gun in his lap. Wow, impossible,
Speaker 3: And that same corner ruled that accidental death.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're going to like this next book.
Speaker 3: It will set you aside, It really will, because you're
Speaker 3: going to say, how the hell did this happen?
Speaker 2: And when is that slated for release? Any kind of
Speaker 2: rough idea?
Speaker 3: Sometime next year I'm about I'm saying, maybe two months
Speaker 3: away from handing it in to the publisher. I have
Speaker 3: spent three years researching the evidence and talking to God
Speaker 3: knows how many people, interviewing God knows how many detectives corners.
Speaker 3: And by the way, let me give you a tidbit
Speaker 3: to this, that same corner medical I should be technical,
Speaker 3: that same medical examiner has come forward saying that that
Speaker 3: person lied because they were pressured.
Speaker 2: To do so. Wow, we look forward to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's pretty damn heavy. I gotta tell you
Speaker 3: my girlfriend, who I think I've mentioned before, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe on the phone or whatever. Tell you we've been
Speaker 3: together for almost forty years, and she sees so many
Speaker 3: of these things across my desk, and she hears the
Speaker 3: zoom calls and the zoom calls involving these two cases.
Speaker 3: She walked out of the office and started crying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, blame her. The you cover no dispute some of
Speaker 2: the worst killers in history, they were serial killers in history,
Speaker 2: and their deplorable actions. In researching this book, again we
Speaker 2: talk about how it affected you personally and how far
Speaker 2: you went into the investigation into these stories to be
Speaker 2: able to do them. How much did you feel doing
Speaker 2: these stories, feel for the family the victims, and also
Speaker 2: frustrated law enforcement and prosecutors with these stories.
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing is I felt for the families
Speaker 3: because interview in interviewing them, it struck me that they
Speaker 3: relied on our judicial system, on the detectives, on the
Speaker 3: courts to make it right, and they didn't, and so
Speaker 3: many of these things, these cases, the predators went on
Speaker 3: for months, years and were never caught, and the families
Speaker 3: along the way suffered, and they really suffered. I mean,
Speaker 3: I got to tell you there was there's one mother
Speaker 3: and I still speak with her periodically the last five years.
Speaker 3: She has cried on the phone to me, Dan, I
Speaker 3: got to tell you at least five times about the
Speaker 3: case and how she feels and her loss and the
Speaker 3: emptiness in her heart and in the family. And you know,
Speaker 3: you've got to be a piece of wood, not a
Speaker 3: human being not to feel for those people. You really
Speaker 3: have to, yes, And you know, it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 3: The first year I was into that case with that mother,
Speaker 3: I sent a Mother's Day greeting to her via email
Speaker 3: and we were having my girlfriend and were having breakfast,
Speaker 3: and I got a response from her and she was crying,
Speaker 3: and she was crying. She she you know, my daughter's gone.
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to believe it, blah blah blah blah. And
Speaker 3: you know I own and that's my only daughter. And
Speaker 3: I mean, this went on and on and on and
Speaker 3: it's mother's day.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: All I could do is listen, and I tried my
Speaker 3: best to console her, but it's hard to do. I mean,
Speaker 3: you can't take away from the facts of what happened.
Speaker 3: All he could do, and all I did do was
Speaker 3: tell her that, you know, life will go on and
Speaker 3: you'll find some comfort as the days go by, the
Speaker 3: years go by, and please never lose my phone number.
Speaker 3: And she hasn't. She calls me all the time.
Speaker 2: Do you have a certain responsibility, don't you?
Speaker 3: Yes, you do, and you can't ignore that. You absolutely
Speaker 3: cannot ignore that. I will tell you an instance. So,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned earlier, my backyard is the golf course.
Speaker 3: So one day I was on the putting green and
Speaker 3: my cell phone I forgot to turn it off. Usually
Speaker 3: I will always turn it off playing golf. My cell
Speaker 3: phone rang as one of the other people in the
Speaker 3: forsome was putting his ball into the hole, and I
Speaker 3: answered it and it was this woman crying. She says,
Speaker 3: today would have been my daughter's birthday. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to say, Nan, I really didn't,
Speaker 3: you know, And I excused myself and I said, you know,
Speaker 3: I'll forfeit this hole, blah blah blah blah, and I
Speaker 3: stepped to the side and I talked to her for
Speaker 3: a few minutes. But what could I say to lighten
Speaker 3: the load? There was really nothing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a testament too that there are a lot
Speaker 2: of stories where victims are emboldened, they become activists, they
Speaker 2: go on to careers even though they've been victimized, or
Speaker 2: families of victims go on with their lives. But not
Speaker 2: all victims go on, do.
Speaker 3: They No, absolutely not, absolutely not. Well, anyway, this particular victim,
Speaker 3: she was really brutalized in the desert and she managed
Speaker 3: to survive, and they caught the guy. And in the trial,
Speaker 3: the guy's defense attorney asks her, what are you doing today?
Speaker 3: He was trying to get her to say nothing, right,
Speaker 3: I've been hurt, and I don't know how he was
Speaker 3: planning on using that to his benefit, but that's what
Speaker 3: he did. And her response was, guess what, I went
Speaker 3: back to college. Guess what I got my degree, Guess
Speaker 3: what I just got engaged two months ago. Guess what
Speaker 3: we bought a house. Guess what I'm going to have
Speaker 3: a baby. And the judge just smiled and said, good
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, admitst that there are the impact statements that trial,
Speaker 2: heartbreaking statements by families affected forever, but also that the
Speaker 2: families I always sympathize with the families that have to
Speaker 2: go not only once often, but with the pellet decisions,
Speaker 2: have to go to trial more than once. And at
Speaker 2: that trial things like autopsy photos, crime scene photos blown
Speaker 2: up on huge screens, brought to the attention of the
Speaker 2: jury while family members are in the seats.
Speaker 3: I know this mother, I referred to. She in the trial,
Speaker 3: they showed autopsy pictures of her daughter and how she
Speaker 3: was brutalized. And the woman had not seen those pictures,
Speaker 3: and the defend excuse me. The prosecution insisted on showing
Speaker 3: them to in the court proceeding, and the judge allowed it.
Speaker 3: She couldn't believe what her daughter looked like. And I've
Speaker 3: seen the pictures, and I'm going to tell you what
Speaker 3: dan I would have if that had happened to my relative,
Speaker 3: he wouldn't be walking and talking today.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for coming on,
Speaker 2: Dennis Carson, for coming on and talking about your new
Speaker 2: incredible book, Every Killer Leaves a Trace, The fatal mistakes
Speaker 2: that finally exposed America's most Elusive Killers. For those that
Speaker 2: might want to find out more about this book and
Speaker 2: your other work, can you tell us about any social
Speaker 2: media website that you have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have a Facebook page and it is
Speaker 3: simply called Dennis Carson. Your listeners can get a copy
Speaker 3: of this book on Amazon. It's available as kindle, paperback,
Speaker 3: and hardcover and it was just released this last week.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Dennis Carson. Every Killer
Speaker 2: leaves a trace, the fatal mistakes that finally exposed America's
Speaker 2: most elusive killers. It's been a fascinating interview. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for this and have yourself a good night.
Speaker 3: Thank you and so much. Jan I appreciate you too.
Speaker 2: Thank you.