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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 4: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 4: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that are written about them. In
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety two, Lewis Duncan, acclaimed author of fictional suspense,
Speaker 5: wrote a horror story she could never have imagined, writing
Speaker 5: a true account of the murder of her own daughter,
Speaker 5: kate Lynarquette. Kate eighteen, was shot to death as she
Speaker 5: drove home from a friend's house on a Sunday evening
Speaker 5: in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Police closed the unsolved case as
Speaker 5: a random shooting, refusing to accept information that indicated otherwise,
Speaker 5: although it had all the earmarks of a professional hit.
Speaker 5: That first book, Who Killed My Daughter was Duncan's desperate
Speaker 5: attempt to motivate informants and prevent the facts of Kate's
Speaker 5: story from becoming buried. It turned out to accomplish much
Speaker 5: more than that. Duncan's new book, One to the Wolves
Speaker 5: on the Trail of a Killer, is even more horrifying
Speaker 5: than its predecessor. As new information poured in, the family
Speaker 5: ran for their lives, and their original suspicions turned out
Speaker 5: to be the tip of an iceberg so immense that
Speaker 5: Kate herself could not have known how dangerous the information
Speaker 5: was that she had been sitting on in order to
Speaker 5: protect and now estranged boyfriend. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 5: this evening is One to the Wolves on the Trail
Speaker 5: of a Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author,
Speaker 5: Lois Duncan. Welcome to the program, and thank you for
Speaker 5: agreeing to this interview. Lois Duncan, Thank.
Speaker 6: You Dan, thank you for having me on, and thank
Speaker 6: you for caring about us and about Kate.
Speaker 5: Oh, it's my pleasure. This is an incredible book and
Speaker 5: of course an incredible case. And if there is ever
Speaker 5: a case it's more personal, I can't imagine it. So
Speaker 5: let's get to this incredible story with the introduction of yourself,
Speaker 5: because this is actually, as you point out, and it's
Speaker 5: very obvious, this is quite ironic. Tell us what your
Speaker 5: chosen career has been, and you've been successful in this profession.
Speaker 5: Tell us what you are, what kind of author you are,
Speaker 5: and the type of books that you have written.
Speaker 6: I always knew I was going to be a writer.
Speaker 6: I was starting to send stories to magazines when I
Speaker 6: was ten years old, and began to sell them when
Speaker 6: I was thirteen, and I sold my first book. I
Speaker 6: wrote my first book at age twenty that was called
Speaker 6: Debutante Heel, which put me back and you can see
Speaker 6: what era I came from. That was published in nineteen
Speaker 6: fifty seven and it's just recently been republished. And so
Speaker 6: I started with these gentle teenage stories, and then at
Speaker 6: some point I started writing suspense novels for teenagers, and
Speaker 6: that turned out to be the niche that I was
Speaker 6: placed into and became popular in with books like I
Speaker 6: Know what You Did Last Summer and Killing Mister Griffin.
Speaker 6: And by this time I've written over fifty books, so
Speaker 6: I've had a very long career. But never ever did
Speaker 6: I think that I would be writing a book about
Speaker 6: the murder of my own child.
Speaker 5: Yes, now, tell us about your life with Caitlin our Cat.
Speaker 5: I guess this is your pen name that you're using
Speaker 5: as Lois Duncan as a writer. But tell us about
Speaker 5: life growing up, about your husband and Caitlin and any siblings.
Speaker 5: Tell us about what her life was really like, and
Speaker 5: then you can explain what really characterized her particular personality
Speaker 5: and what was her ambitions and goals and dreams in life.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about Kaitlyn our Cat. Please.
Speaker 6: Well. I grew up in a very gentle home with
Speaker 6: parents who never ever thought about evil entering into our lives.
Speaker 6: And it was just my brother and me and my parents,
Speaker 6: and we were very happy family, what you'd call the
Speaker 6: absolute normal family. And I married Donna Arquette, and I
Speaker 6: had had a previous marriage with three children and was divorced,
Speaker 6: and Donna adopted my three children, and then he and
Speaker 6: I went on to have two more children of our own,
Speaker 6: Donnie Arquette, Don Junior, and Kate, who was our baby.
Speaker 6: And so we had five children, were raising five children.
Speaker 6: We were living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. All our children
Speaker 6: were interesting in their own way, and Kate, being the
Speaker 6: baby of the family, was doted on of course by
Speaker 6: all of us. And she was very bright, and she
Speaker 6: was she wanted to become a doctor so she could
Speaker 6: help people save lives. She was a humanitarian early on.
Speaker 6: She became an organ donor as soon as she could
Speaker 6: get her driver's license. And she was also very strong
Speaker 6: willed and rebellious and funny and delightful and beautiful. And
Speaker 6: that is a dangerous combination of things to have. And
Speaker 6: that was our youngest child. And Kate is the one
Speaker 6: who was chased on in her car and shot to death.
Speaker 6: And all of those traits that she had probably contributed
Speaker 6: to the murder because it made her someone who went
Speaker 6: out and did things that we didn't know about. And
Speaker 6: it also contributed to what she donated from her life
Speaker 6: because being an organ downer, she never got to become
Speaker 6: the doctor she had always wanted to be, but five
Speaker 6: of her organs were transplanted, and so five lives were
Speaker 6: saved because Kate died.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: Well that she cared enough to be an organ donator,
Speaker 5: because people don't always.
Speaker 6: Do that, not when not when they're that young. She
Speaker 6: was saying she wanted to be an organ doner when
Speaker 6: she was twelve, and as soon as she got her
Speaker 6: driver's license, that's what she put on it. So when
Speaker 6: she died, we knew, we knew that we had to
Speaker 6: keep her. She was pronounced brain dead, and we knew
Speaker 6: we had to keep her body going long enough to
Speaker 6: get her organs transplanted, because that's what she wanted to
Speaker 6: have happened.
Speaker 5: Now. I know this is you know, maybe even a
Speaker 5: painful question, but I think it's important as we talk
Speaker 5: about this case. Now you say that there are things that,
Speaker 5: of course, especially teenage children are not going to as
Speaker 5: close as any parent can be with their child. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's going to be some secrets between them, some things
Speaker 5: that are held back, and things that obviously they're not
Speaker 5: going to necessarily share. But overall, as you write in
Speaker 5: the book, is it's not like this is Caitlin was
Speaker 5: a troubled youth or anything. But was there you know,
Speaker 5: if we talk about, you know, the period of time
Speaker 5: when she has this boyfriend Dung, tell us about this relationship,
Speaker 5: how long it had occurred, and the meeting of you
Speaker 5: with the boyfriend or the contact or any information you
Speaker 5: have about that. What was your initial impression hearing about
Speaker 5: or meeting tell us about the relationship with this Vietnamese
Speaker 5: person Dung and your reaction tell us, well.
Speaker 6: I'll start with your first question about what Kate was like.
Speaker 6: Kate withheld things like any teenager would. But Kate never
Speaker 6: had been in trouble of any kind. She was the
Speaker 6: gold star kid, she was honor society. She didn't smoke,
Speaker 6: she didn't drink, she didn't do drugs. She'd never been
Speaker 6: in trouble with the law. She had a curfew, she
Speaker 6: kept it. So it's not like we had anything to
Speaker 6: make us think this could happen. Kate also was a
Speaker 6: person that was a humanitarian, and she was always bringing
Speaker 6: home straight animals that were hurt and nursing them back
Speaker 6: to health, and stray people who had problems, and Kate
Speaker 6: wanted to help them deal with their problems. And in
Speaker 6: this case, this was a young Vietnamese man. He was
Speaker 6: one of the boat kids. He came over. He was
Speaker 6: struggling with the language, She was homesick his family back
Speaker 6: in Vietnam. He and Kate met at a coffee house.
Speaker 6: She more or less adopted him, and I think it
Speaker 6: started like that. She brought him home all the time,
Speaker 6: and he called me mom and would stand over me
Speaker 6: in the kitchen as I cooked and be so excited
Speaker 6: about being in a real home, and so it was
Speaker 6: like she was first it was like she was taking
Speaker 6: care of him, and then it went on and it
Speaker 6: turned into a romantic relationship. And we really didn't know
Speaker 6: much about him because he was he was around all
Speaker 6: the time because she had him there taking care of him.
Speaker 6: But his language is English, was not good, so it's
Speaker 6: hard to have a conversation with him. And Kate I
Speaker 6: would say nothing about him that wasn't good, and we
Speaker 6: had no idea that anything was wrong. And when Kate graduated,
Speaker 6: she already had a job, she was self supporting. She graduated,
Speaker 6: she immediately got her own apartment. She wanted to be
Speaker 6: independent and she could pay for it out of what
Speaker 6: she was earning with her work. And she took him
Speaker 6: in to live with her there. And I think that
Speaker 6: once that happened, she learned about things that she didn't
Speaker 6: know before that, because before that she had a curfew.
Speaker 6: He would be at our house, he'd go home, as
Speaker 6: far as we knew, I'd go to bed. Maybe she
Speaker 6: slipped out, I don't know. But once she had her
Speaker 6: own place and he moved in, and then all his
Speaker 6: friends came swarming in and she realized that his friends
Speaker 6: were part of a criminal group. I think she, in
Speaker 6: the last couple of months of her life, learned about
Speaker 6: a lot of things she was not supposed to know,
Speaker 6: and then she broke up with him. And the night
Speaker 6: she broke up with him, she was chased down in
Speaker 6: her car and shot to death. So I'm not thinking
Speaker 6: that he did it, but I'm thinking that she knew
Speaker 6: too much and she was now angry and was in
Speaker 6: a position to expose it and she was taken out. Yeah,
Speaker 6: that's speculation, Dan, No.
Speaker 5: But there's inferences and so there's there's a difference, and
Speaker 5: so we'll get to that as well, because don't you know,
Speaker 5: don't downplay that sort of thing, because you provide a
Speaker 5: lot of information. And that's all investigation, ever is, whether
Speaker 5: it's police or private investigation or private citizens and doing
Speaker 5: an investigation. So there's always validity, certainly, and there's logic
Speaker 5: involved there too. So let us go back to unfortunately,
Speaker 5: tell us what happened in terms of Again, it's important
Speaker 5: for people to understand this case because of the implausibility
Speaker 5: of the Again, we talk about a random shooting and
Speaker 5: it looks like an assassination, and you just mentioned that
Speaker 5: there was good reason for someone to have her assassinated.
Speaker 5: So tell us just about if whatever you can handle
Speaker 5: in terms of again, it's very interesting that the car
Speaker 5: travels seven hundred and twenty feet and then it's put
Speaker 5: in park. So tell us about what actually happened that night,
Speaker 5: take us back to the faithful event prior to that,
Speaker 5: and then lead us up to what at first was
Speaker 5: known about and what you knew initially about what had happened.
Speaker 6: The night of the murder. Kate left her apartment, came
Speaker 6: over to our house. She arrived at six pm. I
Speaker 6: know exactly when she arrived because sixty minutes had just started,
Speaker 6: so she walked in the door just as the show started,
Speaker 6: so I know that absolutely. And she told us that
Speaker 6: she had to break up with her boyfriend. You said Dung.
Speaker 6: Actually it's pronounced yune as far as the Vietnamese pronunciation goes,
Speaker 6: and that it was over something very serious. That she
Speaker 6: had told him he had to move out of her apartment,
Speaker 6: she didn't want him or his friends around anymore. And
Speaker 6: she said she was going to the home of a
Speaker 6: new girlfriend for dinner, and that she was going to
Speaker 6: then come back and spend the night at our house.
Speaker 6: She was not going to go back into the apartment
Speaker 6: until he was gone, And so she went to the
Speaker 6: home of the girlfriend, and when she left the home,
Speaker 6: she was chased down in her car and shot to
Speaker 6: death driving in the direction of our house.
Speaker 5: Now this is important too. Where was she shot?
Speaker 6: She was shot twice in the head. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 6: you mean where in the town was she shut?
Speaker 5: No? No, no, no, that's what I wanted to establish
Speaker 5: that the you know, because again a random shooting, with
Speaker 5: a random shooting with two shots.
Speaker 6: There were three shots that we know of that were fired.
Speaker 6: Two went through the glass driver's side window which was
Speaker 6: up and entered her head, and another bullet entered the
Speaker 6: doorframe behind her head. Right, And uh, this is interesting.
Speaker 6: No case things were ever found, No bullets were ever found,
Speaker 6: the bullet that went into.
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Speaker 6: Were frame of the car went through? Never found? According
Speaker 6: to police report. We think it probably was found, but
Speaker 6: uh the police report say it wasn't. The bullets that
Speaker 6: went into her head were never found. They apparently, according
Speaker 6: to the UH investor the medical investigator, must have been
Speaker 6: of such small caliber that they shattered when they entered
Speaker 6: her head, and that the fragments must have been swept
Speaker 6: away in their bloodstream. However, the hole in the side
Speaker 6: of the car on the doorframe is quite large. If
Speaker 6: you go to our website you can see a picture
Speaker 6: of it, or if you read under the Wolves, we've
Speaker 6: got a good sized picture of it there showing the
Speaker 6: size of that hole. And that hole is certainly not
Speaker 6: a twenty two. That is a large sized bullet, which
Speaker 6: would suggest to us that two guns were shoes used.
Speaker 6: And if that's the case, that was not random.
Speaker 5: Certainly, certainly. Now, what do the police released to the public,
Speaker 5: and what do the police say to you? And how soon?
Speaker 5: How many how much time elapses before authorities contact you,
Speaker 5: how do they contact you? Tell us about that.
Speaker 6: We were called from the hospital and my husband Donn
Speaker 6: and I were asleep and we were called just before midnight,
Speaker 6: and it was a nurse from the hospital or some
Speaker 6: representative there said your daughter is here and she's been injured.
Speaker 6: And I immediately said, well, what's wrong. They said, we
Speaker 6: cannot talk to you on the phone. You have to
Speaker 6: come down, and so of course we jumped into our
Speaker 6: clothes and drove straight to the hospital, and all we
Speaker 6: could think of was it must have been a car wreck.
Speaker 6: She's gone to her girlfriend's house. She never came back
Speaker 6: here to go to sleep like she said she would.
Speaker 6: She's been in a car wreck. And I got out.
Speaker 6: My husband took the car around to park it, and
Speaker 6: I got out and ran in the emergency room door,
Speaker 6: and a nurse came out and put her arms around me.
Speaker 6: And right then I thought, oh god, this is worse
Speaker 6: than I ever imagined. And I said, it's a car wreck,
Speaker 6: is that? And she said, your daughter's been shot in
Speaker 6: the head. And then she said you've got to prepare
Speaker 6: yourself for the fact that you may lose her. And
Speaker 6: she was in a coma and her brains were shattered.
Speaker 6: And I leader asked the doctor, what you know, what
Speaker 6: shoul would we pray for? What would you pray for
Speaker 6: if this was your child? He said, I don't know
Speaker 6: what to tell you. He said, if she lives, she'll
Speaker 6: never be Kate and is he implied, she'll be a vegetable.
Speaker 6: And she continued to live for twenty hours on life support,
Speaker 6: and then she went frain dead and I had to
Speaker 6: be the one to say take her off life support.
Speaker 6: And I figured I had to be the one because
Speaker 6: I was the one who brought her into the world,
Speaker 6: so I should be the one that takes her out.
Speaker 6: And the young man who was waiting for her heart
Speaker 6: and lungs was already prepped on the next floor waiting
Speaker 6: to get them, and I knew she wanted to donate them.
Speaker 6: I knew she no longer had a brain, so I said,
Speaker 6: I'm plugger. Yeah, that was the worst thing I've ever
Speaker 6: had to do in my life.
Speaker 5: Of course, of course, he I can only imagine now
Speaker 5: to top this off, of course, there's the nagging questions
Speaker 5: of who and why and so what the what's police?
Speaker 5: What are the what are the police's official explanation via
Speaker 5: their release and their explanation to you.
Speaker 6: In the beginning, there there was a there was a
Speaker 6: good young homicide detective Steve Gagels. I will name names
Speaker 6: here because they're all matter of record, And he was
Speaker 6: in charge of her case, and he was doing things right.
Speaker 6: He was going around. He was He went straight to
Speaker 6: the girlfriend's house, then he went straight to the apartment
Speaker 6: where Kate's boyfriend was and woke him up to break
Speaker 6: the news to him. Well, we later discovered that that
Speaker 6: two hours before that the boyfriended or even calling people
Speaker 6: telling them that Kate had been shot. But Steve Kaaliegis
Speaker 6: didn't know that, and so Detective Gaia Goos was doing
Speaker 6: everything that he could during those first days and trying hard.
Speaker 6: And then it was almost like something came down and
Speaker 6: blocked him, like somebody said, stop it. You're not to
Speaker 6: go on this track. This was a random drive by shooting,
Speaker 6: and you are not to look at anymore. And he
Speaker 6: was just a young detective and he obeyed his superiors.
Speaker 6: And this is I am again speculating why he did this,
Speaker 6: but I saw him doing all the right things, and
Speaker 6: then I saw it blocked. And then suddenly the police said,
Speaker 6: random drive by shooting, and we will not accept any
Speaker 6: information that indicates otherwise. And that was.
Speaker 5: Let's just get back to this, because I think this
Speaker 5: is very important. You said that. Of course, you write
Speaker 5: in the book that a few hours later, three hours later,
Speaker 5: the police contact Nung Kate's boyfriend and two to tell
Speaker 5: him about the death of his girlfriend and to see
Speaker 5: his reaction. As they know that they're always looking at
Speaker 5: people closest to the victim. In this particular case, the
Speaker 5: boyfriend is a likely suspect that they have to rule
Speaker 5: out or or you know, consider an interesting suspect. How
Speaker 5: did you find out that he had contacted his friends?
Speaker 5: How certain are you with this in terms of he
Speaker 5: contacted his friends saying that Kate had been shot? And
Speaker 5: then the police report tell us about how certain you
Speaker 5: are about that information?
Speaker 6: Because Kate, much after the fact, Kate's hairdresser contacted us,
Speaker 6: and because we have a website up that we had
Speaker 6: email way for testers to get in touch with us,
Speaker 6: and she contacted us and told us that and she
Speaker 6: wasn't just Kate's hairdresser. She was a personal friend to Kate,
Speaker 6: babysat with her children, and she used Kate as a
Speaker 6: hair model. And she said that you had phoned her
Speaker 6: babbling hysterically. Kate's dead. They shot Kate. Kate's dead. And
Speaker 6: she knew exactly what time he called because the late
Speaker 6: news had just gone off and she and her husband
Speaker 6: were getting ready for bed, and so her husband could
Speaker 6: support her statement. And this was hours before the police
Speaker 6: went to the apartment and woke up you. And so
Speaker 6: there's no reason to disbelieve this young woman who would
Speaker 6: contact us. And she also told us she called the
Speaker 6: police within weeks of the shooting and told them this,
Speaker 6: and they said that they would not take her information
Speaker 6: because it was a random shooting, and this suggested something else. Yeah,
Speaker 6: she was very frustrated. She has actually allowed us to
Speaker 6: take a video of her making this statement about the shooting.
Speaker 6: She was very angry that she was shrugged off with
Speaker 6: important information, and we owe her a lot for her
Speaker 6: honesty and her her courage to come to us and
Speaker 6: tell us that.
Speaker 5: Now you just mentioned it, but maybe we should talk
Speaker 5: about how strong this is because, as I did in
Speaker 5: the introduction, you wrote a book earlier and was public
Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety four looking for information about the murder
Speaker 5: itself and seeking people to come and help out and
Speaker 5: contact you. You also had a website and chat sites
Speaker 5: and all kinds of people behind this. So tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit more about that. And then another interesting
Speaker 5: thing is the private eye, the lady that contacts you
Speaker 5: at some point too. So maybe we're jumping ahead there,
Speaker 5: but again, tell us a little bit more about how
Speaker 5: dedicated and serious you people were about getting information about
Speaker 5: your daughter's murder and certainly being very active. Tell us
Speaker 5: about all the things that you.
Speaker 3: Did do.
Speaker 6: Well. The first indication we had that something was really
Speaker 6: wrong was when I was paying Kate's final bills and
Speaker 6: I was paying her phone bill, and I thought two
Speaker 6: phone calls to California that were made while Kate was dying.
Speaker 6: In fact, they were made right after her she was
Speaker 6: pronounced dead, and they were made from her apartment, and
Speaker 6: nobody was supposed to be in that apartment. The boyfriend
Speaker 6: was at the hospital with us, and who were those
Speaker 6: people in California that were being phoned at that point?
Speaker 6: And that's why I went to the police and said,
Speaker 6: something's wrong. You need to check this. Check out these
Speaker 6: phone numbers, and they said, well, we can't check them
Speaker 6: out because they're unlisted. Because and I said, well, surely
Speaker 6: the police have a way to get those and they said,
Speaker 6: oh no, no, that would be illegal. Well, I thought
Speaker 6: writing at the University of New Mexico, thought magazine writing
Speaker 6: for the journalism department, and a lot of my students
Speaker 6: had gone on to become reporters. So I called one
Speaker 6: of them, who was an investigative reporter, Mike Gallagher is
Speaker 6: his name, at the Albuquerque Journal, and I said, do
Speaker 6: you know how to get find out whose number this
Speaker 6: is and he said, yeah, I can find it out
Speaker 6: and he found out. He called me and we discovered
Speaker 6: that this was a criminal group of Vietnamese people in
Speaker 6: California that were involved in a car recinsurance fraud scam,
Speaker 6: and that Kate's boyfriend and his friends were involved in that,
Speaker 6: that Kate had gone out and witnessed one of the wrecks.
Speaker 6: Right then we started thinking, now, wait, something is very
Speaker 6: very wrong here. If the police don't even want to
Speaker 6: look at this, and here my kid from my class
Speaker 6: was able to go find out whose number, it was like,
Speaker 6: couldn't the police do it? And that's when we started
Speaker 6: turning onto the fact that something was very wrong, and
Speaker 6: we started getting more and more information. Everything we tried
Speaker 6: to give to the police, they said, no, we don't
Speaker 6: want it because it's a random shooting. And finally they
Speaker 6: dropped off the case, said we're done with it and
Speaker 6: we're never going to do any further investigation. And only
Speaker 6: then did I write a book because I didn't want
Speaker 6: to get in the way of a police investigation. But
Speaker 6: when they said that they were not going to do anymore,
Speaker 6: I wrote, who killed my daughter? And that made that
Speaker 6: book went wild. It sold extremely Well, it's still in
Speaker 6: print and you can get it on Amazon or anywhere else.
Speaker 6: It's in paperback, and it's also an ebook. And who
Speaker 6: killed My door? Opened the door because it threw me
Speaker 6: into all these talk shows all over the country like
Speaker 6: Larry King in Good Morning America and Unsolved Mysteries and
Speaker 6: Sally Jesse Resciale and Kate's story suddenly was big news.
Speaker 6: And the police had never expected that this is a
Speaker 6: little teenager in Albuquerque being shot to death. Why would
Speaker 6: anyone ever noticed that? Well, suddenly everybody in the United
Speaker 6: States was noticing the Caitlin Arquent murder, and that police,
Speaker 6: of course hated us, especially I mean hated me, and
Speaker 6: we started getting death threats to the rest of our family.
Speaker 6: So we left Albuquerque, and I'm glad we did because
Speaker 6: I think those death threats were serious. And that sparked
Speaker 6: a lot of people, tipsters, people who had information about
Speaker 6: the case to start contacting us. And it also brought
Speaker 6: in outside investigators who were interested in the case, wanted
Speaker 6: to help US, forensic experts, crime scene analysts, and in
Speaker 6: particular the private investigator Pat Carristo that you referred to,
Speaker 6: who had information about a man who was standing next
Speaker 6: to Kate's car when the first officers arrived. That man,
Speaker 6: Paul Appadaka, had a long record of violent assaults upon women,
Speaker 6: and he was allowed to leave the scene without ever
Speaker 6: being questioned as either a witness or suspect. And if
Speaker 6: you find a man with that background standing next to
Speaker 6: a car where there's a young woman who's been shot
Speaker 6: in the head, you'd think that you would at least
Speaker 6: get some information from him. So she became our mother,
Speaker 6: Teresa figure, and these people were all helping as pro bono,
Speaker 6: and they got more and more involved, and we've come
Speaker 6: to call them Kate's army, because it's like this whole
Speaker 6: army from outside of us has expanded with so many
Speaker 6: people invested in in our daughter that she's become almost
Speaker 6: like a poster child for somebody who's case has been
Speaker 6: corruptly investigated.
Speaker 5: Now, the question I wanted to ask you because when
Speaker 5: Cristo does contact you with this information and she's and
Speaker 5: she bypasses all of the because what was interesting about
Speaker 5: the book is that you went and took money from
Speaker 5: the book sales of I know what you did last summer,
Speaker 5: which you know, well, I wasn't so happy with that.
Speaker 5: But I took the money and we used it for
Speaker 5: to give to a donation and then to basically hire
Speaker 5: a tip line to gather tips. And then when you said, okay,
Speaker 5: can we have those tips, they go no, no, we can
Speaker 5: only give these to police. And you figure, well, there'll
Speaker 5: at least be a couple tips out of those. And
Speaker 5: then this woman Christo bypassed that after I think Sally
Speaker 5: Jesse Rafael and said, listen, did you know this?
Speaker 6: Now?
Speaker 5: I want to ask you this though, doesn't this sort
Speaker 5: of complicate the Vietnamese? I mean, I was with you
Speaker 5: all the way with oh, okay, this makes logical sense.
Speaker 5: The boyfriend and especially the statement he said to her
Speaker 5: hairdresser friend that you know they've shot they've shot Kate.
Speaker 5: They've shot Kate, you know. So doesn't this really complicate
Speaker 5: the case? This abacando guy is standing next to the
Speaker 5: vehicle made it mean? It gives freedom?
Speaker 6: That's what you're saying is didn't everything is complicated the
Speaker 6: case because the more informational we get, the bigger the
Speaker 6: case becomes, and it's no longer just the boyfriend and
Speaker 6: his little group that was involved in things. Uh. The
Speaker 6: more we find out. The more we're finding about other
Speaker 6: criminal activities that linked to this, including they were some
Speaker 6: of them. I don't know, Yeah it was the boyfriend
Speaker 6: didn't mention this to Kate, I think, but uh, stealing
Speaker 6: microchips from places like Intel, where some of them had jobs,
Speaker 6: and smuggling them and selling them, and then importation of
Speaker 6: drugs from the from Asia. And we're beginning to get
Speaker 6: into all kinds of criminal activities that we never suspected
Speaker 6: when I wrote the first book. Because we got more
Speaker 6: and more information made it more and more complicated, because
Speaker 6: no longer did I think, well, it's just a simple
Speaker 6: shooting because the boyfriend was man at her. Now I
Speaker 6: have to think there's something really huge going on that
Speaker 6: this boyfriend and his little group were on the fringe
Speaker 6: of and knew about it and were participating in in
Speaker 6: some fringe level. But whatever that level was, it was
Speaker 6: enough so that if people had followed up on it,
Speaker 6: it would have opened a huge can of worms that
Speaker 6: would have reflected on all the people that were protecting
Speaker 6: these various criminal activity. This was this was the tip
Speaker 6: of the iceberg. What I stumbled on when I wrote
Speaker 6: that first book. I thought, oh, how smart I am
Speaker 6: I've discovered it all and then we've discovered now how
Speaker 6: much more there was to it. And if you read
Speaker 6: One to the Wolves, you will see where I'm heading
Speaker 6: with this. But I don't you don't really want to
Speaker 6: get into the whole thing here. But I think anyone
Speaker 6: who reads that can put the pieces together and form
Speaker 6: their decision about who was the bottom line person involved
Speaker 6: in covering up all these activities.
Speaker 5: The thing is what we skipped over is and again
Speaker 5: this must have made your heart skip a beat at
Speaker 5: least when initially happened. Is this He's reading a book
Speaker 5: that about six months after Kate's murder there was a
Speaker 5: rest of three young men and subsequent confessions when that happened,
Speaker 5: tell us what your thoughts were at that time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, about six months after the shooting, just when we
Speaker 6: were starting to really rile up and force the police
Speaker 6: to look at the things like the phone calls out
Speaker 6: of Kate's place, all of a sudden they arrested three
Speaker 6: young Hispanic men for randomly shooting Kate, and doubt their
Speaker 6: eyewitness had been in prison at the time of the shooting,
Speaker 6: so their arrests fell through because there was no evidence
Speaker 6: against these Hispanic men. They were little creeps who had
Speaker 6: been in trouble with the law, but there was nothing
Speaker 6: to tie inticate's case. Once the eyewitness, who was a
Speaker 6: fifteen year old who later told the media that he
Speaker 6: was bullied into saying that these bullied by police into
Speaker 6: saying that these guys had done it, was discovered to
Speaker 6: have been in the detention center at the time of
Speaker 6: the shooting. He couldn't have been an eyewitness, and the
Speaker 6: charges were dropped against the Hispanic man. Yet because they've
Speaker 6: been arrested, all the police have to do is make
Speaker 6: an arrest to say that the case is closed. There
Speaker 6: doesn't have to be a t a conviction, a trial,
Speaker 6: a conviction, anything. All there has to be is an arrest.
Speaker 6: They can go out and arrest anybody on the street
Speaker 6: corner and then say, well, we've made our arrest, so
Speaker 6: we've done our job. And if the case hasn't, if
Speaker 6: they weren't found guilty, that's up to the prosecutor. They
Speaker 6: didn't do their job right. And so where the case
Speaker 6: stands now is it's open. If you ask the police,
Speaker 6: it's open, which means that since it's open, no other
Speaker 6: agency can investigate it. And yet it's in active, which
Speaker 6: means the police don't have to investigate it. So there
Speaker 6: you're stuck in this bind where nobody else can investigate
Speaker 6: it because it belongs to the Albuquerque Police Department. They
Speaker 6: own Kate's case, and yet they're not gonna investigate and
Speaker 6: no further cause they've they've closed it because then they
Speaker 6: made their arrest, and they jump back and forth, Queen
Speaker 6: saying it's open case in the closed case, depending upon
Speaker 6: who wants to look at it. And for the average
Speaker 6: person like us trying to get information, trying to get
Speaker 6: another agency involved helping us, FBI wanted to become involved
Speaker 6: that since murder is not a federal crime, they can
Speaker 6: only become involved if the investigating police department invites them,
Speaker 6: in which they refused to do.
Speaker 5: Well, is it such a wild thought, though, that because
Speaker 5: you've made them from the very first appearance on Good
Speaker 5: Morning America, where you seem to have not you know,
Speaker 5: you said Jesus was a horrible, embarrassing, disastrous interview here
Speaker 5: because they had interviewed the Albuquerque, New Mexico Police and
Speaker 5: it basically just got you to respond to it was
Speaker 5: sort of a one sided interview in terms of how
Speaker 5: they sort of the angle of the interview itself, and
Speaker 5: then you were sort of defended against the allegation that
Speaker 5: you were a grieving mother who didn't know any better
Speaker 5: and just blame the police for because you have to
Speaker 5: blame somebody. But it did resonate with a lot of people.
Speaker 5: Is there Is it such a wild thought to think
Speaker 5: that the police, despite having to do their job, having
Speaker 5: to do the right thing, that they were very, very angered,
Speaker 5: embarrassed and humiliated by your actions and thought that you
Speaker 5: were out of your league or went beyond your rights
Speaker 5: to be able to try to investigate this murder of
Speaker 5: your own daughter.
Speaker 6: Oh, I'm sure that's true. However, I did not write
Speaker 6: the book and I did not give any interviews until
Speaker 6: after the police said that they were done with the case.
Speaker 6: At that point, I was not getting in the way
Speaker 6: of any investigation, and so there was no reason not
Speaker 6: to take a next step. And the only reason I
Speaker 6: was able to get this book published, that first book
Speaker 6: was because I had built up a background as Lois Duncan,
Speaker 6: a writer of suspense novels. And by now I've written
Speaker 6: fifty books, and I had built a reputation and I
Speaker 6: had a readership. And so I was able to write
Speaker 6: and have published a book that had no ending, and
Speaker 6: most people don't have a way to do that. And
Speaker 6: so I was very fortunate in being that physician. I
Speaker 6: was in not that anyone's fortunate in losing their child,
Speaker 6: but I was fortunate in having the ability and the
Speaker 6: access to getting a book published by a traditional publisher
Speaker 6: and promoted. And so yes, I'm the police, of course,
Speaker 6: got more and more and more angry the more attention
Speaker 6: this case got. Uh, the more shows I appeared on,
Speaker 6: the angrier they became. And that's of course a very
Speaker 6: reasonable thing. Uh. And I think the good cops really
Speaker 6: got brainwashed by the others to the point where they
Speaker 6: believed it too. Today's young generation of police officers if
Speaker 6: they if you would talk to them, they would say, well,
Speaker 6: this case got solved, and this mother just just wrecked
Speaker 6: their case by writing a book. They don't even know
Speaker 6: themselves that the book wasn't published until after the police
Speaker 6: was tone with the case. They're not the bad guys.
Speaker 6: I think whoever was there at the time was controlling
Speaker 6: the case, was being controlled by somebody else, and that
Speaker 6: every all the all the officers since simply believed the
Speaker 6: party line. So I'm definitely not saying the whole department's rotten.
Speaker 6: But but whatever happened at some point poisoned the case
Speaker 6: and made it impossible for the other officers to do
Speaker 6: anything other than just say, well, it's a cold case.
Speaker 6: Let's forget it. But it's not cool to us now.
Speaker 5: What it was interesting too, is the behavior of Kate's
Speaker 5: boyfriend Noon. We talked about his reaction again, him calling
Speaker 5: his friends, numerous friends previous to the police, so apparently
Speaker 5: waking him up from a deep sleep to tell him
Speaker 5: about to inform him of Kate's murder. Despite that, there's
Speaker 5: some other behavior that you've uncovered that is very, very
Speaker 5: odd and is not in sync with somebody grieving a
Speaker 5: girlfriend's murder. Tell us some of Noon's behavior, especially proceeding
Speaker 5: or just after the murder.
Speaker 6: Well, he came to the schuneral. I think he was
Speaker 6: sincerely grieving. I do not believe he killed Kate, and
Speaker 6: I do not believe he wanted Kate to be killed.
Speaker 6: I think he told people too much. He was mad
Speaker 6: at her, and he told people that she was a
Speaker 6: bitch and she was going to blow the whistle on
Speaker 6: this stuff. And that he by doing that, he set
Speaker 6: the wheels in motion that caused Kate to be chased
Speaker 6: down and shot to death. And either he was at
Speaker 6: the scene at the time of shooting or one of
Speaker 6: his friends was who called him and told him about it,
Speaker 6: because how else would he have known about it.
Speaker 4: So but I.
Speaker 6: Have never thought that he did it. They did a
Speaker 6: primer residue test on his hands. He had not fired
Speaker 6: a gun. I do not think he did it. He
Speaker 6: came with you know, I think he was surely grieving.
Speaker 6: He came to our home after the funeral when we
Speaker 6: had the wake, the people who would come to the
Speaker 6: home and eat and commiserate and so forth. And then
Speaker 6: he went to the apartment of a friend, and he
Speaker 6: had an a Vietnamese friend, and he ended up with
Speaker 6: a knife in his belly that night, and the police
Speaker 6: said it was a suicide attempt. Even himself later said
Speaker 6: it was a suicide attempt. I went to the hospital
Speaker 6: to talk to he survived. I went to the hospital
Speaker 6: to ask him about how he was. At that point,
Speaker 6: I had no no problem with him. I didn't suspect him.
Speaker 6: I was worried about him, sincerely, and he first he
Speaker 6: put his arms around my nick and said, mom, thank
Speaker 6: you for coming. And he said I didn't kill her.
Speaker 6: And I said, I know you didn't kill her, and
Speaker 6: then I paused, and then I said, but you know
Speaker 6: who did. And I said you have to decide if
Speaker 6: you love her enough to tell. And he paused, and
Speaker 6: then he said, I know I am deciding.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 6: That to me says he he has the knowledge but
Speaker 6: is afraid, and I think someone else probably intimidated him
Speaker 6: by sticking and I in his spelly. There were about
Speaker 6: six people linked to Kate's case who ended up stabbed
Speaker 6: or splashed right after the murder. I think that was
Speaker 6: attempts to intimidate witnesses, and that's an awful lot of
Speaker 6: people to have accidents happened.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you've laid out a great case because I mean,
Speaker 5: this is where the evidence does direct itself to I mean,
Speaker 5: I can agree with you, I mean lots of times.
Speaker 5: The only thing is that the guy that was hanging
Speaker 5: around the car again, of course police should have questioned him,
Speaker 5: but it really doesn't make any sense for this to
Speaker 5: be a carjacking because of the way she was shot
Speaker 5: in the head. That's an assassination of I'm not an expert,
Speaker 5: but I have recently found discovered apparently that that sometimes
Speaker 5: they will shoot a person in the top of the
Speaker 5: head so that the bullet fragments break up in the head,
Speaker 5: since that part of the body is probably the hardest
Speaker 5: part of the body. I'm not an expert, but when
Speaker 5: I look at your case, it does look like an assassination.
Speaker 6: It doesn't look like an assassination. Pardon you said, it
Speaker 6: doesn't look like an assassination. No, it does, Yeah, it does,
Speaker 6: it does. And also, uh, it was not a drive
Speaker 6: by shooting. There was damage to the back of kid's
Speaker 6: car rear and damage like her car had been hit
Speaker 6: from behind, forced off the road using the pit technique,
Speaker 6: which is when you clip the corner back left corner
Speaker 6: of a vehicle and it makes it turned to the
Speaker 6: left and swerve and run across. That damage was not
Speaker 6: there prior to that night, and that suggests strongly that
Speaker 6: she was knocked off the road and then someone on
Speaker 6: foot came up and shot her through the window. It
Speaker 6: was everyone says. Everybody said it was a close shooting,
Speaker 6: a close up shooting. It does not sound like something
Speaker 6: that you could do from two cars racing along the
Speaker 6: road and you take some wild shots and so it
Speaker 6: sounds like it was carefully orchestrated, and well, we're just dan.
Speaker 6: We're doing the best we can to keep it going,
Speaker 6: to keep finding things out. Every time we do a
Speaker 6: show like this, every time people contact us, there are
Speaker 6: people who have information who maybe they didn't know that
Speaker 6: information was important at the time. Little things like how
Speaker 6: would her hairdresser know it was important? What time the
Speaker 6: boyfriend called and told her about the shooting, How would
Speaker 6: she know? How would most people know that something was
Speaker 6: important unless they can see it in context with the
Speaker 6: whole picture. And that's what I hope the book One
Speaker 6: to the Wolves on the Trail of a Killer will
Speaker 6: do that. People who read it will put pieces into
Speaker 6: context and say, wait a minute, I know something. I
Speaker 6: heard somebody talking in a bar who said such and such,
Speaker 6: and that would fill in this little piece of the
Speaker 6: jigsaw puzzle that's missing. People hear things during pillow Talk.
Speaker 6: We've gotten some of our best information from wives, estranged
Speaker 6: wives and girlfriends of cops involved in the cover up
Speaker 6: who told them things during pillow Talk. And these wives
Speaker 6: and girlfriends are now angry and they've contacted us told
Speaker 6: us things, and we never accept any information as valid
Speaker 6: unless our private investigator follows up on it and can
Speaker 6: verify it, because too many people come up with too
Speaker 6: much guff. But in this case a lot of these
Speaker 6: wives and girlfriends were right on the button. People, especially
Speaker 6: as time goes by, people talk, They talk too much,
Speaker 6: if they have a few drinks, they talk too much,
Speaker 6: and so we hear it and we learn it through
Speaker 6: our website. My email address is all over the internet.
Speaker 6: It's my real email address, Lois Duncan, and I have
Speaker 6: it there so that people can contact me and I
Speaker 6: read everything it comes in, even if if they're death threats,
Speaker 6: I read them. And people we have a website for
Speaker 6: Kate with a message board. People can post anonymously on that.
Speaker 6: What is the website, It's katearcat at arcats dot com.
Speaker 6: Kate is spelling A A I T and our cat
Speaker 6: is a r q U E T T E great
Speaker 6: and we're we're looking always for new information. But we
Speaker 6: also would like people to know about the book and
Speaker 6: to spread the word to others about it because it's
Speaker 6: come out as an e book first, and you can
Speaker 6: get an ebook reviewed very well, very easily, and the
Speaker 6: only way people know about it is through word of mouth,
Speaker 6: so it's it's certainly available on Amazon or Barnes and
Speaker 6: Noble or any place for nooks and kindles or anything
Speaker 6: you can download. We're hoping that later it'll come out
Speaker 6: as a hard copy, but for right now, it's an ebook.
Speaker 5: And the other thing I wanted to mention too is
Speaker 5: that And we have another guest on. Donna Kaufman is
Speaker 5: on in a couple of weeks with Cyril Wect and
Speaker 5: again another part of the Planet and Rule. Tell us
Speaker 5: your involvement with Planet and Rule. And again this is
Speaker 5: again she's been called the Queen of true crime, and
Speaker 5: anybody knows anything has read any true crime book at
Speaker 5: all has to have read and Rule book, and everybody
Speaker 5: beloved true crime writer starting her career with talking and
Speaker 5: her first subject was Ted Bundy. But tell us about
Speaker 5: the Planet n Rule. And because this is a major
Speaker 5: endorsement of this importance of this book, and also how
Speaker 5: great a read it is. It really is a great book.
Speaker 5: It's you can't put this thing down. And of course,
Speaker 5: the credibility of Anne rules. She's not going to put
Speaker 5: her name in her review to anything that isn't of
Speaker 5: the really the best quality. So tell us about your
Speaker 5: involvement with Planet and Rule.
Speaker 6: Well, Dan, this you don't know about this, but start
Speaker 6: with Ann Rule and I were both young, divorced mothers
Speaker 6: with children, and I had started my career and she
Speaker 6: had not started hers as a writer. She was a
Speaker 6: police officer, I think at the time, but she wanted
Speaker 6: to be a right She was raising her children by herself.
Speaker 6: I was raising mind by myself. But I had started
Speaker 6: making career as a writer. And I gave a talk
Speaker 6: at a writer's conference and Anne Rule sat in the
Speaker 6: back of the room and she thought, if that woman
Speaker 6: can do it, I can do it. Well said. Some
Speaker 6: years later, I was on the panel of another writer's
Speaker 6: conference or librarian's conference or something, and the person we
Speaker 6: were all being introduced in order. A person introduced ahead
Speaker 6: of me was Anne Ruhl, who had and he said,
Speaker 6: when she's just received two million dollar advance on her
Speaker 6: next book or something like that. I thought, oh my god,
Speaker 6: I've got to follow that. What kind of actors I
Speaker 6: have to follow? How can possibly? But so they said,
Speaker 6: here's Lois Duncan, who writes the teenage suspense novels and
Speaker 6: Anne Ruel jumped up and ran across the stage, threw
Speaker 6: her arms around me and said, Lois duncan my mentor well,
Speaker 6: I just melted. That was the beginning of a friendship.
Speaker 6: And from then on, of course, we followed each other,
Speaker 6: and we've met fairly as frequently as we could, considering
Speaker 6: you live in different sides of the country. Our children
Speaker 6: became friends, and Anne got better and better known and
Speaker 6: became so wonderful. And when I wrote this book, Anne
Speaker 6: Rule had just started her own ebook publishing company, Planet
Speaker 6: Ann Rule, and she said, normally they're just publishing her
Speaker 6: own books as electronic books, but in this case, she
Speaker 6: wanted to publish one of the Wolves. She felt so strongly,
Speaker 6: she was so emotionally invested in Keith's case right from
Speaker 6: the beginning, that she wanted to be the one to
Speaker 6: publish it. And she wrote a wonderful endorsement for it.
Speaker 6: And so minus the first book other than Ann Rule's
Speaker 6: own books that Planet and Rule has published, and they
Speaker 6: haven't yet started publishing hard copies, but they're get ready
Speaker 6: to start doing that. They're a fledgling company, but I
Speaker 6: think they're taking off. Well. A company is being run
Speaker 6: by Leslie Rule, who is AM's daughter, right and so
Speaker 6: also an author. Yeah, she's also an author, and I
Speaker 6: endorse some of her books which are quite good, and
Speaker 6: so it's almost like an all in the family thing.
Speaker 6: But Anne would never endorse a book she didn't believe in,
Speaker 6: and she believes so totally. In Kate's case, she's been
Speaker 6: our strongest supporter right from the beginning.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, that's that's really good. I know it's a
Speaker 5: major endorsement, and I know Anne Rule, that's the kind
Speaker 5: of writing she has known for as well. Is really
Speaker 5: a victim's advocate, that's and that's her approach as well,
Speaker 5: you know, human of course, well not humanizing, bringing the
Speaker 5: reader into the victim's life and of course are inevitable,
Speaker 5: their inevitable death, and to show people how everything works,
Speaker 5: how everything happened in that person's life. The unfortunate incidence
Speaker 5: is sometimes there is little bits of sort of happy endings,
Speaker 5: somewhat true crime isn't really known for that. And then
Speaker 5: there's the heart wrenching, very very heart wrenching, like your case,
Speaker 5: your personal involvement, and then the questions unanswered and the
Speaker 5: justice undone.
Speaker 6: So I well, I think the thing that makes my
Speaker 6: book probably different from the others that you review on
Speaker 6: your program is that it's written not by someone who's
Speaker 6: a recognized true crime writer about somebody else's case, but
Speaker 6: it's written by other about their own case, and it's
Speaker 6: written in first person, so there's a human element in it. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I would never want to write a book about someone
Speaker 6: else's case. I wouldn't have the strength to do it.
Speaker 6: But I've had enough strengths to handle writing about case.
Speaker 5: Yeah. No, Well, on this program, we just talk about
Speaker 5: individual cases lots of times, because there are certainly true
Speaker 5: crime writers that have twenty or thirty books, but there
Speaker 5: are certain books in certain cases that resonate with me.
Speaker 5: And that's why we've done cases of wrongful conviction, open
Speaker 5: cases where you know the journalist, the author, the police officer,
Speaker 5: the people are still looking for answers and for the culprit.
Speaker 5: So again, it's just to me, it's fascinating all of
Speaker 5: these aspects, the different types of books that are now
Speaker 5: categorized as true crime. And I'm glad that it's your
Speaker 5: book is considered true crime, so that we've had this
Speaker 5: opportunity to share the story with an international audience and
Speaker 5: just hopefully that there will be an audience that listens
Speaker 5: in and has that, like you say, one little bit
Speaker 5: tidbit of information that adds when it's put into all
Speaker 5: the context of hearing all the other information. So I
Speaker 5: wish you the very very best with that, and hopefully
Speaker 5: some federal authorities will maybe reopen this case because you've
Speaker 5: certainly done your due diligence and done an incredible amount
Speaker 5: of evidence gathering and it's very clear and coherent and
Speaker 5: sensible and reasonable. And the way you've done it is
Speaker 5: to exhaust all attempts to contact the police and give
Speaker 5: them the evidence and present the case and analysis of
Speaker 5: the case by private investigators that are credible. So I
Speaker 5: just hopefully somebody that has more authority will look at
Speaker 5: this case because certainly there is a lot of evidence
Speaker 5: that you've presented and it makes an incredible amount of
Speaker 5: sense to me. So I wish you the very very
Speaker 5: best with this and congratulate you on this incredible effort.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 5: Well. I want to say that it has been great
Speaker 5: at interviewing this evening, and I want to tell everybody
Speaker 5: that I'm listening to Lois Duncan. It's one to the
Speaker 5: wolves and it's available everywhere. And thank you very much
Speaker 5: Lois for this interview, and have yourself a good evening.
Speaker 6: Thank you, good night, good night,