WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.120 With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:04.120 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.719 This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and 4 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:09.679 the weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here 5 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:12.800 a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. 6 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.279 It's just these cash prizes add up quick, so I 7 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:17.640 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 8 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:18.879 and start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.600 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:30.359 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:35.439 Okay, Round two, Name something that's not boring. 13 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:39.920 Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire. 14 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:47.079 Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for chumbuck casino Chum. 15 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.000 That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino 16 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:52.359 style games. Join today and play for free for your 17 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:57.640 chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chump chumbucasino dot com. 18 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:04.280 Plus transitions, whatever you do. Loop host Radio. 19 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:16.519 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 20 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.640 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 21 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:27.280 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 22 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:31.280 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 23 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:35.319 killers in true crime history True Murder, with your host, 24 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.200 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 25 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.159 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 26 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:54.040 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 27 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.359 history and the authors that have written about them. On 28 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.359 November eighth, nineteen eighty five, eighteen year old Tom Odle 29 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.760 brutally murdered his parents and three siblings in the small 30 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:09.120 southern Illinois town of Mount Vernon, sending shockwaves throughout the nation. 31 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.199 It remains one of the most terrific mass murders in 32 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:17.199 US history. Odell was sentenced to death, and, after seventeen 33 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.759 years on death row, expected a lethal injection to end 34 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:24.360 his life. However, Illinois Governor George Ryan's moratorium on the 35 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.560 death penalty in two thousand and later commutation of all 36 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:31.039 death sentences in two thousand and three, changed odal sentence 37 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:36.319 to life. Prior to the commutation, Odele lived in denial, 38 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.520 repressing any feelings about his family and his horrible crime. 39 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:42.919 Following the commutation and the removal of the weight of 40 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:47.759 eventual execution, he was confronted with an unfamiliar reality. A future. 41 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.479 As a result, he realized that he needed to understand 42 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.319 why he murdered his family. He reached out to doctor 43 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.840 Robert Hanlon, a neuropsychologist who had examined him in the past. 44 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.719 Doctor Hanlon engaged Odel in the therapeutic process, which became 45 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:07.479 the basis of their collaboration on this book. Hanlan tells 46 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:10.759 the gripping story of Odell's life, the life experiences that 47 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:15.360 formed his personality, and his tragic homicidal escalation to mass murder. 48 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:18.319 The book that we're featuring this evening is Survived by 49 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:22.879 One with my special guest, professor and author, doctor Robert Hanlin. 50 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.840 Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview, 51 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:27.319 doctor Robert Hanlin. 52 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.879 Yes, thanks, thanks for having me. It'd glad to be here. 53 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:37.039 Very interesting book, congratulations, very unique and let's get right 54 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:41.319 into this. How did you come I alluded to it 55 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.719 in the introduction, but tell us a little bit more 56 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.360 about how you came to this project, why you felt 57 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:52.960 compelled to collaborate with this tom Otle, and why you 58 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.400 felt it was important. Obviously, it's a big endeavor to 59 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.280 write a book, So tell us how you got to 60 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:04.680 this situation where you Felco health books survived by one certainly. 61 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.479 Yeah, I had. I first met tom Odal when he 62 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:12.520 was on death row in the Illinois prison system. He 63 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.599 was at the uh he'd been on death row for 64 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:22.000 at that point, about sixteen years, and he was coming 65 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.519 to the end of the appeals process and he's facing 66 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:31.560 his final execution date. And I was retained by his 67 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.759 attorneys at that time to conduct a neuropsychological evaluation of 68 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:40.439 him and as a last stitch effort to determine if 69 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:44.839 there was really anything that was mitigating, you know, any 70 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:49.439 psychological neuropsychological factors that would be mitigating that his attorneys 71 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:58.279 could you try to use in their appeals. And it 72 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.160 turned out I really didn't ide them with anything that 73 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:07.839 was uh, you know, significant or uh meaningful with regard 74 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:11.720 to uh, you know, to that uh that strategy. He 75 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.600 was actually highly intelligent and really showed no evidence of 76 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:21.600 any kind of cognitive impairments. And what he did demonstrate 77 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.040 from the personality testing that I did with him at 78 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:26.600 that time was that, you know, he showed he continued 79 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:33.519 to show uh some anti social personality traits and features. 80 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.480 And so as a result of that, really my my 81 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:39.920 findings were were not of much use to his defense 82 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:46.399 attorneys at that time. As it turned out, then the 83 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.399 the Governor of Illinois, due to the fact that there 84 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:55.199 had been a kind of a very distressing and con 85 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.839 concernful series of exonerations of death row inmates in Illinois 86 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:06.040 over a period of about ten years, he self compelled 87 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.160 at that time to establish a moratorium on execution, so 88 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:16.040 that basically saved tom Odele's life. And then over the 89 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:20.240 next three years I had no contact with him. I had, 90 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.120 you know, I'd basically done my job. I'd conducted my evaluation, 91 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:32.720 and then the governor, in a blanket commutation, commuted all 92 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.319 of the death sentences of one and sixty seven death 93 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.639 inmates in Illinois at that time, and he was one 94 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.360 of them. And it was shortly thereafter then that he, 95 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.120 out of the blue to me anyway, I received a 96 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:53.879 letter from him asking me to provide him with some 97 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.279 information if I would be willing to do that, regarding 98 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.959 anti social personality disorder and some quote since he had 99 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:07.680 regarding uh, why he had committed this crime and what 100 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:11.360 I thought might be some of the factors that led 101 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:16.360 to this, you know him, why he became who he 102 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:22.319 who he was, and uh I learned subsequently that that 103 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:26.319 he had kind of arrived at that this kind of 104 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:30.360 psychological state because of the commutation of his his death 105 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.959 sentence and then suddenly being faced with the fact that 106 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:35.720 you know, he's going to you know, he was going 107 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:39.839 to live, and he was going to potentially live a 108 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.519 long life in in brisaon which he had never anticipated 109 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:48.360 or or confronted before. And so I found that to 110 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:54.120 be a rather kind of interesting development, uh for individual 111 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.120 like him who had lived for many years on death 112 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:02.920 row and and kind of uh basically lived in a 113 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:06.399 state of denial and repression because. 114 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:08.319 He was anticipating that he was going to be executed. 115 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.319 And then in his view, you know, why why uh 116 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:19.600 why delve into these kinds of serious and painful issues 117 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.160 if they're you know, if they're gonna kill me anyway, 118 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.639 Uh right, And uh so you know, he he he 119 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.560 contacted me and and uh with some questions, and you 120 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.960 know I responded, and uh that evolved then into uh 121 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:41.360 kind of a series of uh correspondents by letter and uh, 122 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:43.960 you know, as you mentioned in the in the intro, 123 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.279 then uh he he was uh you know, very interested 124 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.440 in in in exploring and trying to understand you know, 125 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:58.639 his his development and his particularly the aspect of his personality. 126 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.559 It'll let him to commit this, uh, you know, incredibly 127 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:05.200 horrific crime. 128 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.440 Right now, before we get to that crime, I want 129 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.240 to ask, did you or how much experience and how 130 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.440 much research had you done? How familiar were you with 131 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:19.720 mass murder itself or family mass murder or familiar side 132 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:24.600 or whatever, if it's a proper term. Tell us what 133 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:29.960 your your previous experience and research was regarding this type 134 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.279 of mass murder. I know you're a neuropsychologist, but but 135 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:36.480 tell us what your experience was specifically. 136 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:45.879 I had evaluated many murderers before before him. At that point, 137 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:55.000 we really didn't have a an ongoing criminal forensic research 138 00:09:55.679 --> 00:10:02.279 agenda in my in my lab at Northwestern University Medical School, 139 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:06.039 we were more focused on issues of other types of 140 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:11.559 brain disorders and brain damage, particularly traumatic braintry. And uh, 141 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:16.200 but you know, I had been conducting evaluations of murderers 142 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.399 for for several years. And uh, but he was actually 143 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:25.759 the first family mass murderer that I had I had evaluated. 144 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:30.480 I had evaluated a couple of other mass murderers at 145 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.399 that time, but they were not. You know, they're not family, 146 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:36.879 as you probably know and if you're listeners probably know, 147 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:40.840 they're you know, two fundamental types of mass murder, you know, 148 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:44.559 at least in terms of the classifications had come from 149 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:50.559 the UH the FBI type of classification system. There are 150 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.320 there are family mass murders, and then there are what 151 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:56.080 are what are called, for lack of a better term, 152 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.759 classic UH mass murders, which which are the kind of 153 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.799 mass murders that we all too frequently hear about on 154 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:07.120 the you know, through the media, and mass murders that 155 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:13.120 occur in in schools and shopping centers and UH workplaces 156 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.440 and theaters and UH places like that, where an individual 157 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:23.559 just to some degree randomly murders multiple people that he 158 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:27.000 has no basically had no relationship too. So you know, 159 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:30.639 I had had some experience with individuals of that type. 160 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.519 But but these are, you know, these are very very different, 161 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:37.759 even though they both fall within the realm of mass murder. 162 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.600 And I guess fundamentally that is because of a number 163 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:45.480 of victims that are involved. That are that are you know, 164 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:51.240 murdered at a single UH location, at a single at 165 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:55.240 a you know, single point in time. But clearly the 166 00:11:55.320 --> 00:12:01.200 motives and the agendas of the fender, of the individual 167 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.200 of the murderer are are very different. 168 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.080 What I'm referring to is that I might as well 169 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:12.080 ask how rare is this familicide? This this murder of 170 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:15.480 an entire family, even if we if there's a difference 171 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:19.840 between at the end there's a suicide, but obviously you've 172 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:23.799 researched that and you've included it. How rare is what 173 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:24.759 tom Odle did. 174 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:33.360 Family mass murderers and familicide as such are are not 175 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:40.320 They're not extremely uncommon, and clearly the most common type 176 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.320 of family mass murderer are are the types of mass 177 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:50.159 murders that are typically committed by the father and husband 178 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:59.200 and for various reasons. The father and husband murders his 179 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:03.879 wife or his partner and then subsequent to murders the 180 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.200 children and then usually commit suicide. 181 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:07.799 Uh. 182 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.919 That is the That is the typical scenario for family 183 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:15.960 mass murders. What is much much more rare are cases 184 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:23.159 like this where one of the children murders both parents 185 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.919 and all of the other and all of his or 186 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:31.480 her siblings. These crimes are most commonly about ninety percent 187 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:36.320 of these crimes. Where which are which are technically referred 188 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:40.519 to as paracidal familicide, and which which involves the murder 189 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.679 of parents and the rest of the family. They are 190 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.559 most most commonly, as in this case, committed by the 191 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:54.159 eldest male child. Uh So they are these cases of 192 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:59.960 paracidal familicide are are relatively rare, even among family mass murders, 193 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:04.879 because probably between eighty to ninety percent of family mass 194 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:08.720 murders are committed by the husband or father in the 195 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.519 manner that I described a moment ago. 196 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.000 Now, as you begin with your book, you and it's 197 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.279 I think it's essential obviously to really understand. I mean, 198 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.000 most books will go back into the background of someone, 199 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.679 but you have this incredible access to the killer himself. 200 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.960 And like you say, it's very articulated. He's quite intelligent, 201 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.639 and he is going through this process that you develop 202 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.799 where there's introspection and as a result, he has to 203 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:42.879 be straightforward and very candid, and that's what he's done. 204 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.879 So let's go back to the beginning of tom Old's 205 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:51.919 old Odele's life. And because it's this is the huge 206 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.960 part of this book is the why and why on Earth? 207 00:14:55.039 --> 00:15:00.360 And and so you've provided every single conceivable detail. Also 208 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:05.080 take us back to the very strange family of Tom Odle. 209 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:13.399 Well, yes, he did have a uh an unusual family. Unfortunately, 210 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:15.679 it's probably not as rare as we as we might 211 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.240 like to uh we might like to think. 212 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:18.639 Uh. 213 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.000 He he grew up in an abusive household in his 214 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:28.320 in this case, his mother was the abuser, and she 215 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:34.120 was uh really sadistic, and she's very selective in her abuse. 216 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:39.440 She chose to abuse two out of four of her children, 217 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:44.159 Tom being the the first born and the and then 218 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:48.399 of course the the eldest child. He was born when 219 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.200 she was she was, you know, a very young woman. 220 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:55.120 This is the first child, and she had been also 221 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.480 raised in a very oppressive and very strictive type of 222 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:04.759 house hold by by her parents picking her father, and 223 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:10.440 was restricted from uh a great deal of social activities 224 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:15.000 and and so she had very limited exposure to uh 225 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:20.440 to uh parenting styles and techniques, and so you know, 226 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.320 she was really kind of you know to create shooting 227 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:26.639 in the dark. And with regard to you know, how 228 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.799 she was, you know, how she was going to raise 229 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.759 her child, and what she did then was basically kind 230 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.919 of followed the similar pattern that her parents did. But 231 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.600 she then took it to uh a unfortunately a very 232 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.840 devastating extreme uh in which she was. She would uh 233 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:52.960 force uh social isolation on him, uh forced him to 234 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:55.440 uh stay in this room, would not allow him to 235 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.000 socialize with other children, would not allow the children to 236 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.080 come to their house, would not allow him to go 237 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:06.960 to other children's houses, and particularly before he started the school, 238 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.799 he really had minimal exposure to other children his age. 239 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:17.440 At the same time, she was also uh also physically 240 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:26.680 abusing him to uh beatings uh frequently, and then over 241 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:31.200 time that became combined with a a great deal of 242 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:39.839 verbal and mental abuse, very uh statistic type of demeaning 243 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.559 statements that you know, she wished she'd never been born, 244 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.759 and wished he would die, and wish she had wish 245 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.400 she was not in her life, and uh she regretted 246 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:54.279 ever having him. Things like that. So these are the 247 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.480 kind of things that that that he experienced from a 248 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:03.559 very from very young age, the physical and mental abuse. 249 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.920 And you know, unfortunately for a child like that who 250 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:11.960 particularly it was socially isolated, he you know, he doesn't 251 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.720 you know, because like that don't don't know that that's 252 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.359 that's wrong and that that's unusual and that's not the 253 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.759 way that that you know, most parents and at least 254 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.759 many parents treat their children and kind of assume that 255 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.799 this is the way life is, and this is this 256 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.599 is this is how families are. And so he didn't 257 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:37.599 really come to realize that there's anything unusual about the 258 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.519 way his mother treated him until he uh uh started 259 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:47.680 school and and started interacting with the other children more 260 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.480 in uh say, in the in the second third fourth grade, 261 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:56.559 and had an opportunity to observe how other parents interacted 262 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.039 with their with their children. So that was really the 263 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:06.279 foundation of his personality development. Uh. This type of abuse 264 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.319 by by her, and at the same time, his his 265 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:16.319 father was really uh several steps removed. His father worked 266 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:22.960 uh work, work, nights, and and uh it was it 267 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:27.759 was very uh it was it was I think probably 268 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:34.480 a very affable, likable man, but he was uh passive 269 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:39.680 and submissive uh in his relationship with his life. And 270 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.240 despite the fact that he knew that that she was 271 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.759 executing this type of abuse on on tom during during 272 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:56.440 those early years, essentially did nothing to intervene and and 273 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.279 that pattern continued over the next you know, for for 274 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.519 the rest of their life. Basically because she then Uh, 275 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:10.839 she abused her uh, their third child, Sean, and she 276 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.039 actually I think somebody abused him more physically than she 277 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.799 had actually even abused Tom. One of the things that 278 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.200 she would do she would chain She would chain them 279 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.319 to their beds at night so that she could, you know, 280 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.440 she would go out with her friends, or she could 281 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.039 go out bowling and then go out to socializing because 282 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.119 her husband was at work and she was going to 283 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.920 go out of the town. And uh, so she would 284 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.319 you know, she would change his voice to the to 285 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:46.039 the bed at night. And so the other thing that 286 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.960 she would also deprive Sean of food in the house 287 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.519 and punish him if he did anything to try to 288 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.640 obtain food, uh in the house. And as a result, 289 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:03.319 then you know, of hunger. He would you steal other 290 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:10.440 kids' lunches at school and that ultimately brought attention to 291 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:14.079 to the abuse and led to Sean ultimately being removed 292 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.599 from the old house by the DCFS. 293 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:25.240 Now, Tom being the older son, like we just alluded 294 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.799 to this, or we just mentioned that his younger brother 295 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:34.359 actually got the serious attention of the school because despite 296 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:40.279 Tom's bruises, and there was an incident where he seemed 297 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.599 to talk about the same sorts of things, or at 298 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.480 least the abuse in the family, and either was not 299 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:51.240 believed or the mother came by and came and refuted 300 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.960 this story. Anyway, so tell us a little bit more 301 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.519 about it. Seems like an escalation in his mother's behavior, 302 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.119 though more a socializing. But and I'm glad you mentioned 303 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.720 the chaining to the bed, because when people talk about 304 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:09.599 verbal abuse and and physical abuse, it's good we get 305 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.599 the details of this because this is where I say, 306 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.960 this is maybe not as uncommon as some people would 307 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.759 like to think, but this is quite unusual by most 308 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:20.319 people's standards, isn't it. 309 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.559 Uh yeah, the yeah, this kind of uh, this kind 310 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.640 of behavior where you know, chaining your child to uh 311 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.680 his bed at night, uh is uh it's quite extreme, 312 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.960 you know. I mean some some parents will you know, 313 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.559 lock children in closets. 314 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:39.279 Uh. 315 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:44.440 That's another technique that is uh, you know, similar to 316 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.880 uh uh you know, chaining to a bed, basically restricting 317 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.480 their movement and and keeping them. 318 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:54.920 Hello, it is Ryan And I was on a flight 319 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.160 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 320 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.720 slock games on chumpa casino dot com. I looked over 321 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.720 the sitting next to me and you know what they 322 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.599 were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I 323 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.319 think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's 324 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.599 home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play 325 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.400 for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So 326 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.839 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim 327 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.039 you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com and 328 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:20.160 live the Chumba line. 329 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:22.680 No necessary dlvoid whereby by lost the terms and conditions 330 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:25.440 of eating plus. With Lucky Land Slots, you can get 331 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:27.599 lucky just about anywhere. 332 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.440 Really beloved, we are gathered here today. 333 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.079 Has anyone seen the bride and broom? 334 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:32.440 Sorry? 335 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:33.720 Sorry, we're here. 336 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.799 We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost 337 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:36.319 track of time. 338 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.880 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 339 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:41.119 quicker than a guess registered. 340 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:43.759 But in that case, I pronounce you lucky. 341 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:47.519 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses 342 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.279 are waiting. No purchase necessary boid. We're prohibited by lock 343 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:56.240 EIGHTEAM plus terms and conditions APPLAG see website for details. 344 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.359 You know, you know forcing them to you know remain 345 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.240 in a you know, in one one location so that 346 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:05.400 you can go, you know, with the parents can go 347 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:10.640 do something else. So uh it is you know, I 348 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.519 think the important thing is to try to you know, 349 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.839 try to imagine, and I think it's difficult for many 350 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.799 of us to try to imagine what that you know, 351 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.200 what that experience must must be like with your when 352 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.119 your mother, your your your primary female role model, behaves 353 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:35.559 in this way and and acts this kind of behavior 354 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.640 on you as a young child, you know how that 355 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:46.119 affects your self image and your self concept and and 356 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:50.519 your you know, your understanding of how you know, what 357 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.279 kind of a relationship you have with your with your 358 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.519 parents when you know, when a parent does something like this, 359 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.559 So it's it's uh, you know, and what happened in 360 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:07.400 Tom's case then is is uh he then? Which is 361 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.119 which is very common in in in children who are 362 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.680 who sustain this type of abuse, particularly at a very 363 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:19.359 young age, is then they start acting out aggressively at 364 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.240 at school. It's it's kind of like there's you know, 365 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.519 there's this this need to release this this frustration and 366 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:31.680 anger and resentment that is just you know, building up 367 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.880 against the mother and and it's not it's not safe 368 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.920 to release it toward her directly because you're going to 369 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.720 suffer more abuse if you do. So what happens is 370 00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.720 then these kids at school, you know, start getting in fights, 371 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:50.960 they start a niche and become more aggressive. And and 372 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.440 that's what happened with with Tom and uh again, you know, 373 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.279 and I'm not not trying to have proposed that this 374 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:02.000 is you know, exclusi civily and you know, one hundred 375 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.680 percent due to the abuse that he sustained. I mean, 376 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:11.640 he's he's you know, he has a genetic makeup that 377 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.519 I think also is contributing to some of his some 378 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.880 of his behavior and some of the antisocial tendencies. I think. 379 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:25.079 You know, we now know pretty well that that approximately 380 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:30.720 fifty percent of the in terms of the factors that 381 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:36.160 contribute to violence, particularly in adolescents and then on into adulthood. 382 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.160 You know, about fifty percent of that comes from your 383 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.119 you know, is biological and comes from your genetic makeup, 384 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:49.039 but the other half is derived from your environmental experiences, 385 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.960 your you know, your family relationships and you know, so 386 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.440 it's the nature nurture you know, conflict, which is is 387 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:02.359 always you know, debatable but you know, the science that 388 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.799 at least in this point in time, certainly supports of 389 00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:09.119 that type of division. So you know, when you when 390 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.880 you add then the two together, so you've got, you know, 391 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.480 somebody who's kind of you. You know, he's he's he's 392 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:21.240 the he's the biological offspring of a satistic, emotionally depatched. 393 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:22.640 Mother. 394 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:26.359 And uh so he is you know, some of some 395 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:30.279 of his makeup is is derived from from that. Then 396 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.519 you combine that with all the uh, this kind of 397 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.640 abusive experience and and also uh, you know her as 398 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.279 a role model. She he's also observing her abusing his 399 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:48.119 brother and uh and hearing how you know her, you 400 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.759 know how how she hates is his younger brother. In fact, 401 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:56.200