WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:08.240 Problem, reaction, solution, cheetah ori, cheta ori, open form, debate. 2 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:11.320 The topics are Remember to give it to the topics today, guys. 3 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:13.759 You don't have to debate. If you want to, you can't. 4 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:23.239 The topics are as listed last time, same topics. Bible, 5 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:28.320 Church history, Batristics, councils, Islam, Quran revelation, Protestanism, Calvinism, Evangelicalism, 6 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:34.399 Roman Catholicism, papacy, Arianism, cults, Hebrew Roots, Joe's Witnesses, et cetera, 7 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:41.799 et cetera, Black Huber, Israelites, Yakube. All of these topics 8 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.960 are open for discussion today. I see we have people 9 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:54.479 who would like to discuss porphyry, neoplatonism. All those topics 10 00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.520 are also welcome. The call in is via Twitter spaces. 11 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.600 You'll see the link in the show description. It is 12 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.239 the Twitter space. So if you want to call in 13 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:07.319 and ask, you don't have to debate. You can ask 14 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:14.200 a question, but if you want a debate, raise your 15 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:15.719 hand and you'll go to the front of the line. 16 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:23.760 Remember today isn't FAQ questions for Orthodox catechumens. So if 17 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.599 you're a catechumen and you have those kinds of questions, 18 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:29.680 you can take those to your spiritual father. You can 19 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.719 take those two competent people online who can answer those questions. Really, today, 20 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.799 we're looking for people who disagree, people who have an argument. 21 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.400 They want to present a case that they'd like to make. 22 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:47.319 Remember the way argumentation works, it's not arguing. Arguments in 23 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:52.640 this strict sense. Are some thesis with supporting evidences, syllogisms, 24 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:56.920 et cetera to back up what you're what the case is. 25 00:01:58.159 --> 00:01:59.959 If you come on and say a bunch of stuff 26 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:02.640 and talk about me, or if you want to talk 27 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.959 about drama, none of that is relevant. None of that 28 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.080 is an argument. We can go ahead and just assert 29 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.199 and agree from the outset. I'm the worst person ever. 30 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:19.520 I am the worst KGB drug lord also working for 31 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:21.840 the CIA. So now that we've got that out of 32 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:25.039 the way, let's get to the actual argumentation. So we're 33 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:27.439 gonna focus on that. If you're a drunk wine mom 34 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:29.039 and you call in, we're gonna make fun of you. 35 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.479 If you're a person who wants to come in and 36 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.840 spit their bars, you're gonna get made fun of. Two 37 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.439 If I interrupt you, it's because you're not sticking to 38 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:44.039 the topic or to the issue, and that's a fair game. 39 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.280 Now again, you don't have to debate, but if you 40 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.159 do want to debate, you can't. So let's make that 41 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.879 clear for everybody. Remember the topics are listed. You can 42 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:56.879 only put a certain number of characters in the topic 43 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.599 description on the Twitter, so I can't fit everything in 44 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:07.400 there that I'd like to, even though it says God, Islam, Catholicism, Protestanism. 45 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:09.520 I put Sneaker and Tate in there because that's in 46 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:14.400 the news. We just had the impromptu debate with Muslim 47 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:18.680 lantern what two nights ago, so I figured that might 48 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:24.479 be hot topics. Uh, if the people from that sphere 49 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.599 want to hop on a debate, I don't mean that 50 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.520 I don't expect. I don't expect Muslim lantern or Sneaker 51 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.520 to hop on. I'm saying the people from that sphere 52 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:36.879 if they want to hop on. But now, last time, 53 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:43.439 we ended up having way more Roman Catholics in this 54 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.280 last six hour livestream calling in than I expected. So 55 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:48.759 you never know what you're gonna get. You think you're 56 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:53.080 gonna get more Islamic debates and discussions, and it ends 57 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:56.479 up being Protestants or Calvinists or Catholics or whatever, So 58 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.080 it's open for we never know. It's a roulette wheel 59 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:06.439 of feral madness, and I embrace it. We have fun 60 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.759 with it. So now get your feelings hurt. If you 61 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.360 come to debate and I start debating and then you 62 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.319 play victim, what do you come to debate? Well, it 63 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.319 says debate, and you can specify from the outset whether 64 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.079 you want to debate or not. Again, the topics are 65 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.519 listed and the top of the show link. The call 66 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:28.399 in is in the description of the show, and of 67 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.879 course the mods on YouTube will continually be putting it 68 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:37.279 in there as well. Also to be clear, because there 69 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.399 are a lot of multims that are coming over this way. 70 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.920 I am not an expert in Islam, and I've never 71 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.199 pretended to be. It is a topic that I devote 72 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.879 time to studying on the side. So it is not 73 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:55.639 my main focus of whatever. It's not my main attention. 74 00:04:57.079 --> 00:04:59.000 It's not the sort what am I trying to I 75 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.800 can talk today. It is not the locus of my attention. 76 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:05.000 We have had several debates though in the last six years, 77 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.839 and so it is on my radar. I've read several 78 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:10.600 books on Islam. I've read a good portion of the Kuran. 79 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.720 I've not read the whole thing. I'm familiar with the 80 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:18.639 basic ideas of the various schools akida excuse me creeds. 81 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.360 I know there's a difference between a creed and a 82 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:26.959 feak or jurisprudence. I'm aware of those things. So let's 83 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:31.160 not haggle over minutia. If you want to debate, let's 84 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:32.879 get to the main issues. Yeah, if you want to 85 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.399 do Trinity Tawheed, that's also a fair game as well. 86 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.000 We can talk about that. We can talk about anything 87 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.720 related to Trinity, Christology. Those are the areas I know 88 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:50.879 very well. Anything related to Torah, profits, etc. Those are 89 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:55.560 the things that are my focus church fathers. I know 90 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.839 that very well. Now doctor Khalil is here, he and I. 91 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.079 People are saying, when are you going to have a 92 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:05.639 debate with Khalil. We have had multiple discussions on doing 93 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:10.519 a stream where we perhaps first have open discussion and 94 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:15.079 then later at debate in a timed formal way, or 95 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.279 we might just have discussions. I'm definitely open to that. 96 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:20.879 Of course, he is Shia, so he comes from a 97 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.480 different perspective than most of who we debated so far. 98 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:27.839 I think everybody we've debated so far is Sunni. I 99 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:30.759 can't think of any I think one time a Sufi 100 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.519 guy called in. Now two Sufis have called in to 101 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:39.480 debate on the open forms we do here. But for 102 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:45.480 the most part, I think we've only debated from within 103 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:53.639 the Sunni tradition, and that includes both Salafi and non Salafi. 104 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:58.600 So let's see Paul williams Azer she shavera Lee, right, 105 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.000 we had debates, but then them, and then we had debates 106 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.680 with Daniel Jake It Jaws and Daniel again, and then 107 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:12.720 Muslim Lantern. So I don't know about seven debates now. Anyway, 108 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.079 you're free to set the topic if you want to 109 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.160 set the agenda, what topic you want to talk about, 110 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:20.120 Just let me know from the outset. If you want 111 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.480 to make an argument, for say, I want to make 112 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.480 an argument for three minutes straight, let me talk for 113 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:26.439 the Oh yeah, you can do that, fine, Just make 114 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.480 it clear what you want to do again, keep it 115 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:32.639 to the topics. If you don't, I'm immediately just gonna 116 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:34.920 boot you and move on. So we'll go ahead and 117 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.000 open it up. Let's see. First up was black Sufi 118 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:44.480 Maleik and we were discussing in replies on Twitter. So 119 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:45.759 what's up man, How you doing? 120 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:48.519 Hey Jake? 121 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:48.959 Can you hear me? 122 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:49.480 Sir? 123 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:51.199 Okay? 124 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:53.439 So, first and foremost, I did see that thing that 125 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:57.480 you posted about a seventh century for sure to you 126 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:02.639 know that this song is true. On the traditional Islamic narrative, 127 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:05.160 it's quite clear that during the time of the Sahaba 128 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.720 or the companions themselves, there were true prophecies of the 129 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:12.160 prophet coming true, for example, in the Quran. On the 130 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.920 traditional narrative, the Quran openly predicts, or if the prophet 131 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.879 only openly predicts, that Rome would beat the. 132 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.879 Persians, the Romans would beat the Persians in their war, that. 133 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.160 Certain people would die or pass away on top of 134 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.480 the miraculous elements of Islam. 135 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.480 But that's not what the dilemma challenges, though it's not 136 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:31.279 related to that. 137 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:34.799 I am making the point though, that they would have 138 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.360 evidences to justify their belief in Islam. 139 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:40.960 But how does that answer the challenge about the Quran 140 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.279 saying confirm the Qoran with prior revelation. 141 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:47.840 I would say that the Koran doesn't confirm prior revelation, 142 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.000 so I would just totally reject that premise. 143 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:53.000 So these verses are not saying that you can look 144 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:56.200 to the Torod and the prophets and all of that. 145 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:58.600 You don't need to look to the tour in prophets. 146 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.679 What I'm saying versus the verses say that, sure. 147 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:05.720 Right, and the uncorrupted versions and things like this, we 148 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:08.360 would say that you can't. Right, there's possibly stuff within 149 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:09.240 the New Testament. 150 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.159 Okay, so how do you know there's a where is 151 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:12.159 the uncorrupted version? 152 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.159 I don't think there's a whole uncorrupted versions, but we. 153 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.200 Would say that our snippets, where is that that the 154 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.080 seventh century christenrds you could look to? 155 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:25.360 So, for example, there are tons of verses that somebody 156 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:30.600 would say that you can contextually argue, would talk about 157 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:36.960 get a message, sorry, would talk about the Muhammadan prophecy 158 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:42.080 within the Torah or within the New Testament, right that 159 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:44.360 many Muslims are pretty sure you've heard have argued this, 160 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.080 but they're usually not explicit verses either way. 161 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.759 So in other words, there is there do you understand 162 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.159 we have? We have versions of the Torah and the 163 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.120 Gospels and the prophets that precede, that predate the seventh century? 164 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.320 Right? I do know that? 165 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.559 So that refutes this idea that there was this other 166 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:09.120 uncorrupted one at the time of the Quran that they 167 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:09.799 could have looked to. 168 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.240 No, So the Quran, okay. 169 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:15.440 So the prophet himself, if you read the hideth corpus, 170 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:16.799 have you read a lot of hidethur? 171 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:17.360 No? 172 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.039 Some not a lot, okay. 173 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:23.759 So the prophet himself clearly tells people that the Torah. 174 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.120 He says, don't don't believe everything in the Torah, like 175 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:28.759 he very clearly says, I believe, don't believe or disbelieve it. 176 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:30.600 Right when it comes to certain things that you read 177 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:31.519 in the Torah. 178 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:34.360 And then you have Umar and Uthman and others that 179 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.559 clearly say that when it comes to the corruption of 180 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:41.080 the New Testament and the Old it's the text that 181 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:42.600 is corrupted itself. 182 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:43.080 If you read. 183 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:46.360 Let's see, I can't remember the number of the hadith 184 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.200 in particular, but it is. 185 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:50.559 In Sahi Muslim and Abukari. 186 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:53.120 So these are very authentic haidiz and they're widely transmitted 187 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:53.559 as well. 188 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:57.120 Well. But what about the other hadith that say that 189 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:01.960 it's impossible for the uh Tora to be corrupted or 190 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.480 God's word to be corrupted. That's also in the Quran 191 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:04.879 as well. 192 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:08.799 Right, Well, we come to the question of divine speech 193 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:11.679 and it's corruptibility, I would say, in relation to the 194 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:13.399 divine essence is incorruptible. 195 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:17.440 So a minute. So that means then that the that 196 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:19.720 the Quran in time and space is also corruptible. 197 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:24.039 Right, somebody could have you know, if we didn't have 198 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.879 an entire empire forging the book basically, you know, putting 199 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:29.360 the book together, I would say, it's quite a possibility 200 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:30.279 that certain things. 201 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:31.480 Could be nonpropetic in there. 202 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:34.840 The actual argument for the preservation of the Quran is 203 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.559 basically that itself, right, it's not the. 204 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.519 Uh well, I mean you understand preservation itself doesn't prove anything. 205 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:46.080 Yeah, I would agree with that, right, But I'm trying 206 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.480 to tell you why we believe the Kuran in particular 207 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.679 is preserved. Right, That's why I'm trying to give you 208 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.000 that justification for why. 209 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:53.360 We do have that belief in whole to it. 210 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.360 Yeah, but that's not what I asked you was on 211 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:58.200 what basis? Then, if if all us speech and time 212 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.399 and space in the written books can be correct, then 213 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.519 wouldn't that undercut your view on the Kuran. 214 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.519 No, it wouldn't because as I just said, Well, you 215 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:10.000 just said, but you just said that the prior words 216 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.000 of a lah can be corrupted in terms of their 217 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:15.799 historical instantiations in the Torah, right, yes, okay, but not 218 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.360 the Quran. 219 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:21.480 I'd say, the Quran when it comes to a double standard, Okay, 220 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:22.840 it's a totally different justification. 221 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.600 No, it's not, No, it's not. You literally just admitted 222 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:27.879 that Allah's words can be corrupted in terms of their 223 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:31.759 physical instantiation, but not in the Quran. That's a double standard. 224 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:34.240 Not really. 225 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.200 I would say that the reason why we hold that 226 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.600 the Koran is preserved is because of totally different reasons. 227 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:40.840 From that, it doesn't matter that you have totally different 228 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.799 reasons if you've already admitted that that Allah's words can 229 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:53.159 be corrupted. Anyway, let's get to the neoplatonism issues. I 230 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:54.519 thought that's what you want to talk about. 231 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:56.399 That's also true, okay. 232 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:00.159 So I would say that when it comes to you're 233 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:05.559 a pistemology and your problems with a pistemology, neoplatonic keenology 234 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.480 can just as easily justify the reliability to faculties. 235 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.720 As neoplatonic What did you. 236 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.399 Say, penology? Starting with the monad. 237 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.679 What but how does that? What does that have to 238 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.679 do with Islam? 239 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:24.360 Within the Sufi and Neoplatonic traditions themselves, they clearly hold 240 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.559 to neoplatonic theology. 241 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:29.639 Okay, why why should I accept neoplatonic metaphysics as an 242 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:30.960 epistemic starting point? 243 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:36.679 Well, I would say that's necessary for intelligibility. 244 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.600 Why is that necessary for intelligibility. 245 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:40.960 The same reason you hold the news to be necessary 246 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:41.600 for intelligbility. 247 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.720 When you feel, well, that's a that's a faculty. That 248 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:47.279 doesn't mean that it provides justification because I believe in 249 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.799 an element of the worldview existing. So what I'm asking 250 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.679 is an epistemic justification question. 251 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:56.039 Yeah, I know, And you usually use the logos and 252 00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:58.000 news as a justification for faculty. 253 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:00.879 Those aren't justifications. The news is not a justification. It 254 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:02.840 happened a faculty be a justification. 255 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.080 So you don't think that because God exists, that's why 256 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.919 our factories are reliable, that's all what you believe. 257 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:15.320 I do believe that, but I have a basis. But 258 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.600 I have a basis. I have a basis in terms 259 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.519 of revelational epistemology, which is not what you're arguing. 260 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.399 So you don't argue that God himself, in his very 261 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.799 own essence in nature would entail that your faculties are reliable. 262 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.279 No, Now, God's essence is unknowable, so we don't believe 263 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.480 that at all. But I would argue that physics is justification. 264 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.840 Revelation is the basis for metaphysics. 265 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.679 Okay, So you hold that because the book says so, 266 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.360 therefore my faculties are reliable, or the tradition says so 267 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:48.639 as well. 268 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.279 Now I hold that the transcendental argument gives me a 269 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.799 basis to believe in the reliability not just of my faculties, 270 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.000 but of the worldview as a whole. 271 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:02.279 Let me make this point. 272 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.080 So you would appeal to the transcendental argument to justify 273 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.440 from scripture instead, right, not from necessarily your metaphysics. 274 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.720 Well, the transcendental argument is an argument for an entire worldview, 275 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.000 so it includes the whole. It includes the pieces of 276 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.679 the worldview too, such as divine revelations, such as universals, 277 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:24.759 such as categories. All of those things are part of 278 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.440 the world view. So one of the unique things about 279 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:33.000 TAG is that it's a worldview specific and holistic argumentation. 280 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:34.240 Thank you. 281 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:36.200 Okay, So. 282 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.399 Why couldn't write a Sufi or somebody like that use 283 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.360 the same justification for the reliability to faculties. 284 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.879 Because it's not just an argument for the reliability of faculties. 285 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:50.600 It's an argument for objectivity, universality, laws of logic, all 286 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.960 those things which require a deity that is more than 287 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.559 just a bear unity or a bare monad. 288 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:00.360 Why would you say that because this is now going to. 289 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.399 Metaphysics, because I mean, yeah, we can go into a 290 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.120 pis and this argument can go in any direction. But 291 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:07.799 if you want to take it in the metaphysics direction, 292 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.639 that's that's fine with me. Because a unit bear unitarian 293 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.840 deity uh is not. It cannot be of justification for 294 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.120 why there's multiplicity in the world, how there's temporality in 295 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.000 the world. If you're a consistent neoplatonist, you have to 296 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:24.559 say the world's an emanation and not a temporal creation. 297 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.399 But everybody who believes the Bible, and I would assume 298 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.759 the Qur'an too, unless you're some sort of neoplatonists, which 299 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.000 you may be if you're a Sufi, the world comes 300 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.200 to be in time and it's not an eternal emanation. 301 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.639 Well, I think that if you talk to Khalil, for example, 302 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.000 I think you spoken to him. He thinks that the 303 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.080 temporal world is actually created. And so almost every other 304 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.879 play in this that the world, like you know, the 305 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.240 universe that we're talking about here, is temporally created. 306 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:56.679 Well okay, but well some neoplatonists that necessarily do not 307 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.720 know many neo We go to the history of neoplatonism 308 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.279 right here, and we can talk about how the world 309 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:09.319 that we inhabit isn't created, it's an emanation. Sure, they 310 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:11.680 do not believe create. Let me so to make this 311 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:16.799 very clear. Creation in our view presupposes an intentional personal god, 312 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.720 the God of Monad and neoplatonism is not intentional, and 313 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:23.759 he does not have a will by which he creates. 314 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.319 And we can go to the neoplatonic text right here. 315 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.680 I have the expert on neoplatonism, Martie Wallace. In his 316 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:36.359 book he specifically has a chapter on the neoplatonic deity, 317 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.559 whether it's poor, free, or whether it's any of them, 318 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.480 does not create. He does not possess a personal will. 319 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:48.119 The movement of the emanations is an overflowing of the one. 320 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.319 It is not a personal, intentional creation. 321 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.240 Okay, So when we speak about the one. I do 322 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.960 agree that we only speak respect to intellection. Right, So 323 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:03.359 when any ads, for example, kindness says that the One 324 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.200 willing itself is how we get these types of like 325 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:07.319 let's say the first intellect. 326 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.720 Right, Yeah, but it's not a personal God willing himself. 327 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:17.319 Now I have to ask that question, what do you 328 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.519 mean by. 329 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:21.160 Right? 330 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.000 So this is one again, right. This is why I 331 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:24.920 was making that points to you in the comments, is 332 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:28.079 that we're not neoplatonists. The God of the Bible is 333 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.960 the God who reveals himself in time and space. By 334 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:33.680 the way, neoplatonic being cannot be in time and space. 335 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.759 But the God of the Bible, in the Hebrew texts 336 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.400 of the Torah, steps into time and space. They're Theophanes. 337 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.000 They're not created angels. They're called Yahweh, they're called God, 338 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:45.799 they're worship they're called divine. So again, that's why I 339 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.200 was arguing to you that Neoplatonism has nothing to do 340 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.200 with our trinitarian theology whatsoever. It's literally derived from the 341 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:53.200 Hebrew texts. 342 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.519 I actually did agree with you that you guys are 343 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.559 even though you do adopt certain platonic views and opinion, like, 344 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.240 let's say, views on inherent hierarchy. 345 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:04.599 Okay, you're right, that was you and the other guy. 346 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:06.400 That was a replied to the other guy. 347 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.640 Yeah, I do think that you guys do adopt, sir, 348 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:09.480 in platonic views. 349 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.839 You adopt what you guys saw is like the good 350 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.160 parts of Platonism, but then left what you guys thought 351 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.079 contradict Christianity right to a degree. 352 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:18.960 But what like I was saying, like every one of 353 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.720 that ecumenical councils ends up refuting some heresi arc who 354 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.920 utilizes neoplatonic dialectics to try to prove their position right. 355 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.400 So another element of this I'm not trying to shift, 356 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.359 but you could say, you know, in a lot of 357 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:34.640 this is not just Neoplatonism and much of the Greek 358 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.519 philosophical tradition, the One, the absolute God, whatever we call it, 359 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.559 it's opposite the world. Okay, we rejected dialectics, so we 360 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.400 have no dialectical philosophy. That's why we believe in a 361 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.039 trinity that has ultimacy of unity and multiplicity. It's not 362 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.640 all a bare unity, and God's actions or attributes are 363 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.680 actually infinite, so there's a balance of the one and 364 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.000 the many. In our position, I think that also resolves 365 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.559 other metaphysical problems that other world view have. But it's 366 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:06.160 a uniquely trinitarian position where the persons of the triad 367 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.920 have a mutual exchange of love and other attributes and 368 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.920 energies such as divine glory. And that's why Jesus says 369 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.599 in John seventeen one to five that before the foundation 370 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.000 of the world, he shared with the Father the eternal 371 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.640 glory amongst the triad. So that means for us, there's 372 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:29.240 certain attributes that are natural or necessary, such as glory, 373 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:35.440 such as love, such as any attribute that's not contingent 374 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:38.559 upon the created order. But for God to actually exercise 375 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.640 providence or to exercise the power of creating, that's what 376 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.480 Ariosola referred to a second actuality, that's actualizing the powers 377 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:49.519 that he has. So we don't believe that God has 378 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.319 always exercised necessarily every power that he has. He can 379 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.359 exercise at will because he's a personal and intentional being. 380 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.759 That's why when Jesus becomes incarnate person that God had 381 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.119 steps into time and space, he willingly chooses not to 382 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.799 actualize all of his powers, to step into a mode 383 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.400 of being in time and space. That's all absolutely impossible 384 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.079 in a neoplatonic scheme. And to turn that question to you, 385 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.079 I would say, if you did have a neoplatonic scheme, 386 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.440 now I've read some Sufi text, and maybe you would 387 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.079 agree with this. Do you believe that everything is a 388 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.039 kind of manifestation of Allah or do you believe that 389 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.680 Allah is so transcendent that he really can't be revealed 390 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.039 or manifested in time and space. 391 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.920 I would say that when it comes to apatheticism, first 392 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:38.519 of all, everything in a sense does reflect the divine 393 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.440 attributes quote unquote right. But I would not say that 394 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.319 everything in the world is gone. I'm not a pantheist 395 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:46.880 or panentheist. 396 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.799 Right, I reject that type of view. That's what if 397 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.359 you read almost any Sufi. 398 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.920 Metaphysician, like let's say Shake f Mettijenny Iven RB. 399 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.079 They'll all reject pantheon right, very explicitly. 400 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:04.519 So, yeah, I didn't think you were a pantheist, but 401 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.200