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Speaker 1: Problem, reaction, solution, cheetah ori, cheta ori, open form, debate.

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The topics are Remember to give it to the topics today, guys.

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You don't have to debate. If you want to, you can't.

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The topics are as listed last time, same topics. Bible,

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Church history, Batristics, councils, Islam, Quran revelation, Protestanism, Calvinism, Evangelicalism,

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Roman Catholicism, papacy, Arianism, cults, Hebrew Roots, Joe's Witnesses, et cetera,

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et cetera, Black Huber, Israelites, Yakube. All of these topics

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are open for discussion today. I see we have people

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who would like to discuss porphyry, neoplatonism. All those topics

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are also welcome. The call in is via Twitter spaces.

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You'll see the link in the show description. It is

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the Twitter space. So if you want to call in

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and ask, you don't have to debate. You can ask

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a question, but if you want a debate, raise your

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hand and you'll go to the front of the line.

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Remember today isn't FAQ questions for Orthodox catechumens. So if

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you're a catechumen and you have those kinds of questions,

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you can take those to your spiritual father. You can

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take those two competent people online who can answer those questions. Really, today,

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we're looking for people who disagree, people who have an argument.

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They want to present a case that they'd like to make.

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Remember the way argumentation works, it's not arguing. Arguments in

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this strict sense. Are some thesis with supporting evidences, syllogisms,

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et cetera to back up what you're what the case is.

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If you come on and say a bunch of stuff

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and talk about me, or if you want to talk

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about drama, none of that is relevant. None of that

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is an argument. We can go ahead and just assert

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and agree from the outset. I'm the worst person ever.

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I am the worst KGB drug lord also working for

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the CIA. So now that we've got that out of

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the way, let's get to the actual argumentation. So we're

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gonna focus on that. If you're a drunk wine mom

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and you call in, we're gonna make fun of you.

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If you're a person who wants to come in and

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spit their bars, you're gonna get made fun of. Two

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If I interrupt you, it's because you're not sticking to

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the topic or to the issue, and that's a fair game.

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Now again, you don't have to debate, but if you

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do want to debate, you can't. So let's make that

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clear for everybody. Remember the topics are listed. You can

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only put a certain number of characters in the topic

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description on the Twitter, so I can't fit everything in

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there that I'd like to, even though it says God, Islam, Catholicism, Protestanism.

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I put Sneaker and Tate in there because that's in

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the news. We just had the impromptu debate with Muslim

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lantern what two nights ago, so I figured that might

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be hot topics. Uh, if the people from that sphere

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want to hop on a debate, I don't mean that

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I don't expect. I don't expect Muslim lantern or Sneaker

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to hop on. I'm saying the people from that sphere

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if they want to hop on. But now, last time,

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we ended up having way more Roman Catholics in this

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last six hour livestream calling in than I expected. So

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you never know what you're gonna get. You think you're

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gonna get more Islamic debates and discussions, and it ends

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up being Protestants or Calvinists or Catholics or whatever, So

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it's open for we never know. It's a roulette wheel

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of feral madness, and I embrace it. We have fun

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with it. So now get your feelings hurt. If you

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come to debate and I start debating and then you

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play victim, what do you come to debate? Well, it

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says debate, and you can specify from the outset whether

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you want to debate or not. Again, the topics are

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listed and the top of the show link. The call

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in is in the description of the show, and of

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course the mods on YouTube will continually be putting it

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in there as well. Also to be clear, because there

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are a lot of multims that are coming over this way.

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I am not an expert in Islam, and I've never

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pretended to be. It is a topic that I devote

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time to studying on the side. So it is not

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my main focus of whatever. It's not my main attention.

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It's not the sort what am I trying to I

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can talk today. It is not the locus of my attention.

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We have had several debates though in the last six years,

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and so it is on my radar. I've read several

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books on Islam. I've read a good portion of the Kuran.

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I've not read the whole thing. I'm familiar with the

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basic ideas of the various schools akida excuse me creeds.

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I know there's a difference between a creed and a

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feak or jurisprudence. I'm aware of those things. So let's

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not haggle over minutia. If you want to debate, let's

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get to the main issues. Yeah, if you want to

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do Trinity Tawheed, that's also a fair game as well.

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We can talk about that. We can talk about anything

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related to Trinity, Christology. Those are the areas I know

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very well. Anything related to Torah, profits, etc. Those are

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the things that are my focus church fathers. I know

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that very well. Now doctor Khalil is here, he and I.

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People are saying, when are you going to have a

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debate with Khalil. We have had multiple discussions on doing

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a stream where we perhaps first have open discussion and

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then later at debate in a timed formal way, or

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we might just have discussions. I'm definitely open to that.

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Of course, he is Shia, so he comes from a

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different perspective than most of who we debated so far.

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I think everybody we've debated so far is Sunni. I

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can't think of any I think one time a Sufi

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guy called in. Now two Sufis have called in to

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debate on the open forms we do here. But for

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the most part, I think we've only debated from within

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the Sunni tradition, and that includes both Salafi and non Salafi.

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So let's see Paul williams Azer she shavera Lee, right,

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we had debates, but then them, and then we had debates

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with Daniel Jake It Jaws and Daniel again, and then

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Muslim Lantern. So I don't know about seven debates now. Anyway,

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you're free to set the topic if you want to

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set the agenda, what topic you want to talk about,

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Just let me know from the outset. If you want

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to make an argument, for say, I want to make

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an argument for three minutes straight, let me talk for

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the Oh yeah, you can do that, fine, Just make

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it clear what you want to do again, keep it

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to the topics. If you don't, I'm immediately just gonna

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boot you and move on. So we'll go ahead and

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open it up. Let's see. First up was black Sufi

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Maleik and we were discussing in replies on Twitter. So

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what's up man, How you doing?

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Speaker 2: Hey Jake?

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Speaker 3: Can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: Sir?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So, first and foremost, I did see that thing that

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you posted about a seventh century for sure to you

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know that this song is true. On the traditional Islamic narrative,

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it's quite clear that during the time of the Sahaba

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or the companions themselves, there were true prophecies of the

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prophet coming true, for example, in the Quran. On the

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traditional narrative, the Quran openly predicts, or if the prophet

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only openly predicts, that Rome would beat the.

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Speaker 3: Persians, the Romans would beat the Persians in their war, that.

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Speaker 4: Certain people would die or pass away on top of

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the miraculous elements of Islam.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what the dilemma challenges, though it's not

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related to that.

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Speaker 4: I am making the point though, that they would have

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evidences to justify their belief in Islam.

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Speaker 1: But how does that answer the challenge about the Quran

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saying confirm the Qoran with prior revelation.

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Speaker 4: I would say that the Koran doesn't confirm prior revelation,

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so I would just totally reject that premise.

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Speaker 1: So these verses are not saying that you can look

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to the Torod and the prophets and all of that.

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Speaker 3: You don't need to look to the tour in prophets.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying versus the verses say that, sure.

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Speaker 4: Right, and the uncorrupted versions and things like this, we

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would say that you can't. Right, there's possibly stuff within

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the New Testament.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so how do you know there's a where is

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the uncorrupted version?

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's a whole uncorrupted versions, but we.

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Speaker 1: Would say that our snippets, where is that that the

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seventh century christenrds you could look to?

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Speaker 4: So, for example, there are tons of verses that somebody

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would say that you can contextually argue, would talk about

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get a message, sorry, would talk about the Muhammadan prophecy

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within the Torah or within the New Testament, right that

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many Muslims are pretty sure you've heard have argued this,

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but they're usually not explicit verses either way.

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Speaker 1: So in other words, there is there do you understand

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we have? We have versions of the Torah and the

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Gospels and the prophets that precede, that predate the seventh century?

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Speaker 5: Right? I do know that?

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Speaker 1: So that refutes this idea that there was this other

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uncorrupted one at the time of the Quran that they

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could have looked to.

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Speaker 3: No, So the Quran, okay.

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Speaker 4: So the prophet himself, if you read the hideth corpus,

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have you read a lot of hidethur?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 5: Some not a lot, okay.

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Speaker 4: So the prophet himself clearly tells people that the Torah.

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He says, don't don't believe everything in the Torah, like

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he very clearly says, I believe, don't believe or disbelieve it.

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Speaker 3: Right when it comes to certain things that you read

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in the Torah.

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Speaker 4: And then you have Umar and Uthman and others that

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clearly say that when it comes to the corruption of

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the New Testament and the Old it's the text that

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is corrupted itself.

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Speaker 3: If you read.

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Speaker 4: Let's see, I can't remember the number of the hadith

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in particular, but it is.

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Speaker 3: In Sahi Muslim and Abukari.

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Speaker 4: So these are very authentic haidiz and they're widely transmitted

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as well.

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Speaker 1: Well. But what about the other hadith that say that

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it's impossible for the uh Tora to be corrupted or

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God's word to be corrupted. That's also in the Quran

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as well.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, we come to the question of divine speech

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and it's corruptibility, I would say, in relation to the

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divine essence is incorruptible.

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Speaker 1: So a minute. So that means then that the that

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the Quran in time and space is also corruptible.

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Speaker 4: Right, somebody could have you know, if we didn't have

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an entire empire forging the book basically, you know, putting

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the book together, I would say, it's quite a possibility

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that certain things.

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Speaker 3: Could be nonpropetic in there.

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Speaker 4: The actual argument for the preservation of the Quran is

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basically that itself, right, it's not the.

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Speaker 1: Uh well, I mean you understand preservation itself doesn't prove anything.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree with that, right, But I'm trying

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to tell you why we believe the Kuran in particular

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is preserved. Right, That's why I'm trying to give you

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that justification for why.

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Speaker 3: We do have that belief in whole to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's not what I asked you was on

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what basis? Then, if if all us speech and time

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and space in the written books can be correct, then

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wouldn't that undercut your view on the Kuran.

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Speaker 6: No, it wouldn't because as I just said, Well, you

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just said, but you just said that the prior words

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of a lah can be corrupted in terms of their

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historical instantiations in the Torah, right, yes, okay, but not

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the Quran.

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Speaker 4: I'd say, the Quran when it comes to a double standard, Okay,

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it's a totally different justification.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not, No, it's not. You literally just admitted

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that Allah's words can be corrupted in terms of their

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physical instantiation, but not in the Quran. That's a double standard.

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Speaker 3: Not really.

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Speaker 4: I would say that the reason why we hold that

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the Koran is preserved is because of totally different reasons.

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Speaker 1: From that, it doesn't matter that you have totally different

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reasons if you've already admitted that that Allah's words can

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be corrupted. Anyway, let's get to the neoplatonism issues. I

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thought that's what you want to talk about.

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Speaker 3: That's also true, okay.

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Speaker 4: So I would say that when it comes to you're

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a pistemology and your problems with a pistemology, neoplatonic keenology

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can just as easily justify the reliability to faculties.

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Speaker 1: As neoplatonic What did you.

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Speaker 3: Say, penology? Starting with the monad.

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Speaker 1: What but how does that? What does that have to

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do with Islam?

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Speaker 4: Within the Sufi and Neoplatonic traditions themselves, they clearly hold

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to neoplatonic theology.

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Speaker 1: Okay, why why should I accept neoplatonic metaphysics as an

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epistemic starting point?

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Speaker 4: Well, I would say that's necessary for intelligibility.

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Speaker 1: Why is that necessary for intelligibility.

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Speaker 4: The same reason you hold the news to be necessary

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for intelligbility.

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Speaker 1: When you feel, well, that's a that's a faculty. That

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doesn't mean that it provides justification because I believe in

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an element of the worldview existing. So what I'm asking

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is an epistemic justification question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, And you usually use the logos and

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news as a justification for faculty.

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Speaker 1: Those aren't justifications. The news is not a justification. It

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happened a faculty be a justification.

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Speaker 4: So you don't think that because God exists, that's why

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our factories are reliable, that's all what you believe.

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Speaker 1: I do believe that, but I have a basis. But

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I have a basis. I have a basis in terms

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of revelational epistemology, which is not what you're arguing.

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Speaker 4: So you don't argue that God himself, in his very

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own essence in nature would entail that your faculties are reliable.

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Speaker 1: No, Now, God's essence is unknowable, so we don't believe

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that at all. But I would argue that physics is justification.

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Revelation is the basis for metaphysics.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So you hold that because the book says so,

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therefore my faculties are reliable, or the tradition says so

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as well.

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Speaker 1: Now I hold that the transcendental argument gives me a

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basis to believe in the reliability not just of my faculties,

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but of the worldview as a whole.

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Speaker 3: Let me make this point.

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Speaker 4: So you would appeal to the transcendental argument to justify

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from scripture instead, right, not from necessarily your metaphysics.

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Speaker 1: Well, the transcendental argument is an argument for an entire worldview,

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so it includes the whole. It includes the pieces of

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the worldview too, such as divine revelations, such as universals,

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such as categories. All of those things are part of

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the world view. So one of the unique things about

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TAG is that it's a worldview specific and holistic argumentation.

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Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So.

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Speaker 4: Why couldn't write a Sufi or somebody like that use

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the same justification for the reliability to faculties.

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Speaker 1: Because it's not just an argument for the reliability of faculties.

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It's an argument for objectivity, universality, laws of logic, all

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those things which require a deity that is more than

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just a bear unity or a bare monad.

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Speaker 3: Why would you say that because this is now going to.

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Speaker 1: Metaphysics, because I mean, yeah, we can go into a

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pis and this argument can go in any direction. But

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if you want to take it in the metaphysics direction,

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that's that's fine with me. Because a unit bear unitarian

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deity uh is not. It cannot be of justification for

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why there's multiplicity in the world, how there's temporality in

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the world. If you're a consistent neoplatonist, you have to

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say the world's an emanation and not a temporal creation.

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But everybody who believes the Bible, and I would assume

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the Qur'an too, unless you're some sort of neoplatonists, which

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you may be if you're a Sufi, the world comes

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to be in time and it's not an eternal emanation.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that if you talk to Khalil, for example,

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I think you spoken to him. He thinks that the

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temporal world is actually created. And so almost every other

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play in this that the world, like you know, the

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universe that we're talking about here, is temporally created.

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Speaker 1: Well okay, but well some neoplatonists that necessarily do not

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know many neo We go to the history of neoplatonism

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right here, and we can talk about how the world

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that we inhabit isn't created, it's an emanation. Sure, they

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do not believe create. Let me so to make this

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very clear. Creation in our view presupposes an intentional personal god,

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the God of Monad and neoplatonism is not intentional, and

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he does not have a will by which he creates.

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And we can go to the neoplatonic text right here.

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I have the expert on neoplatonism, Martie Wallace. In his

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book he specifically has a chapter on the neoplatonic deity,

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whether it's poor, free, or whether it's any of them,

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does not create. He does not possess a personal will.

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The movement of the emanations is an overflowing of the one.

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It is not a personal, intentional creation.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So when we speak about the one. I do

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agree that we only speak respect to intellection. Right, So

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when any ads, for example, kindness says that the One

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willing itself is how we get these types of like

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let's say the first intellect.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but it's not a personal God willing himself.

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Speaker 3: Now I have to ask that question, what do you

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mean by.

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: So this is one again, right. This is why I

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was making that points to you in the comments, is

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that we're not neoplatonists. The God of the Bible is

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the God who reveals himself in time and space. By

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the way, neoplatonic being cannot be in time and space.

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But the God of the Bible, in the Hebrew texts

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of the Torah, steps into time and space. They're Theophanes.

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They're not created angels. They're called Yahweh, they're called God,

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they're worship they're called divine. So again, that's why I

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was arguing to you that Neoplatonism has nothing to do

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with our trinitarian theology whatsoever. It's literally derived from the

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Hebrew texts.

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Speaker 4: I actually did agree with you that you guys are

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even though you do adopt certain platonic views and opinion, like,

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let's say, views on inherent hierarchy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're right, that was you and the other guy.

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That was a replied to the other guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that you guys do adopt, sir,

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in platonic views.

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Speaker 4: You adopt what you guys saw is like the good

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parts of Platonism, but then left what you guys thought

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contradict Christianity right to a degree.

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Speaker 1: But what like I was saying, like every one of

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that ecumenical councils ends up refuting some heresi arc who

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utilizes neoplatonic dialectics to try to prove their position right.

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So another element of this I'm not trying to shift,

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but you could say, you know, in a lot of

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this is not just Neoplatonism and much of the Greek

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philosophical tradition, the One, the absolute God, whatever we call it,

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it's opposite the world. Okay, we rejected dialectics, so we

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have no dialectical philosophy. That's why we believe in a

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trinity that has ultimacy of unity and multiplicity. It's not

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all a bare unity, and God's actions or attributes are

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actually infinite, so there's a balance of the one and

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the many. In our position, I think that also resolves

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other metaphysical problems that other world view have. But it's

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a uniquely trinitarian position where the persons of the triad

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have a mutual exchange of love and other attributes and

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energies such as divine glory. And that's why Jesus says

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in John seventeen one to five that before the foundation

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of the world, he shared with the Father the eternal

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glory amongst the triad. So that means for us, there's

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certain attributes that are natural or necessary, such as glory,

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such as love, such as any attribute that's not contingent

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upon the created order. But for God to actually exercise

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providence or to exercise the power of creating, that's what

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Ariosola referred to a second actuality, that's actualizing the powers

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that he has. So we don't believe that God has

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always exercised necessarily every power that he has. He can

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exercise at will because he's a personal and intentional being.

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That's why when Jesus becomes incarnate person that God had

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steps into time and space, he willingly chooses not to

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actualize all of his powers, to step into a mode

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of being in time and space. That's all absolutely impossible

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in a neoplatonic scheme. And to turn that question to you,

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I would say, if you did have a neoplatonic scheme,

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now I've read some Sufi text, and maybe you would

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agree with this. Do you believe that everything is a

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kind of manifestation of Allah or do you believe that

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Allah is so transcendent that he really can't be revealed

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or manifested in time and space.

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Speaker 4: I would say that when it comes to apatheticism, first

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of all, everything in a sense does reflect the divine

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attributes quote unquote right. But I would not say that

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everything in the world is gone. I'm not a pantheist

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or panentheist.

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Speaker 3: Right, I reject that type of view. That's what if

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you read almost any Sufi.

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Speaker 4: Metaphysician, like let's say Shake f Mettijenny Iven RB.

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Speaker 3: They'll all reject pantheon right, very explicitly.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, I didn't think you were a pantheist, but

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my question, I guess would be so for us. In

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orthodox metaphysics, number one, the distinction between the attributes that

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are related only to the created order versus the attributes

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that are true from all eternity without whether or without

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a creative order such as love or glory. Those things

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are not contingent upon a world. But the exercise of

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say divine providence doesn't make sense in our view if

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he's not exercising that, if there's no world over which

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he's provident. So this would be the modal collapse point.

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This would be the point to where if God is

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eternally exercising, say providence, then there's an eternal world over

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which he's exercised that providence. And so if there's an

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eternal world, then now we have a second God or

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second deity next to God, a diad, whereby the created

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order is also eternal, just like God's eternal. So I

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would say that might be a problem depending upon how

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you conceive of the distinction between God's essence and his actions,

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if you believe there's a real distinction or not, and

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if there's no real distinctions, then I would say the

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position would fall into motal collapse. And that's why we

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don't believe in a bear unitarian deity. We believe in

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a real personal triad.

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Speaker 4: I would say that it's consistent because it's quite obvious

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that if you read Sufi metaphysics, we are necessitarians. Right,

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if you hold to ads, it does entail necessitarianism.

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Speaker 5: You'd agree with that, right, I think?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, So we would.

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Speaker 4: Say that, let's say the first intellect is a turnal,

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but we wouldn't say that the tip paroal world is eternal, right,

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so you know, like the entire hierarchy of platinism, right, yeah,

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and so we would negate that in relation to the

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temporal world, but in relation to like let's say the

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first intellect or Hakika Muhammadia, we would affirm that eternality.

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Speaker 5: So well, I don't really see.

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Speaker 1: Is the first intellect a deman in an ontological diminished status?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's dependent, right, and so have multiple deities? I

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would say that that's an impossibility.

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Speaker 1: Right For one, you just said it's dependent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's dependent right upon the emanation of the One

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or the monad or God. But I would say, at

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the same time anything that this is like very classical

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plan is that anything that comes from the one is

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subbortinate to the ones.

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Speaker 3: So and so they don't have the same essence.

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Speaker 1: You can't call them God, right and side question, heret

447
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do you think that the Quran teaches this? I mean

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does the Koran teach ancient Platonic metaphysics? Is that? Does

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that what's really revealed in the Kuran? Are you there?

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You're muted?

451
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Speaker 3: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 4: So I wouldn't say explicitly because you can't have disagreements

453
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on how to interpret the Quran. But I would say

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that the death corpus and things like this do give

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credence to the view of the suit in particular.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm saying where so all of this is

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obviously Greek metaphysics, right, And you're you don't think this

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is cribbed.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Wrong that we know to crib I didn't say right

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or wrong cribbed.

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Speaker 3: No, not really.

463
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Speaker 1: Okay, So you literally said her appealing to Plato and

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these texts, and you're saying that when the Qoran is written, right, Muhammad,

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who is illiterate, is not this is not coming from that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I would not say that these ideas are coming from

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strict plainism. I just said revelation and revelation just corresponds

469
00:25:39,839 --> 00:25:40,839
to reality.

470
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: So so the so the revelation that comes centuries after

471
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,039
Plato and these people is not getting it from Plato,

472
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,480
even though it's you're literally sitting here appealing to Plato.

473
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say that.

474
00:25:52,640 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, all right, anything else? So okay, so

475
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,319
what what what if there's what I know you're saying

476
00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:08,640
that what Plato says, you can't call it god or whatever.

477
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:10,599
But you just said that. I mean, there's an eternal

478
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,279
second principle of intellect? How is that not two different things?

479
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:17,319
How are you? How are you?

480
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 4: Because I think I justified I said why earlier?

481
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: Why in playing?

482
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: No, I'm asking your position.

483
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this is the same position.

484
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: Basically, but it's not from Plato. I would not say

485
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,200
that's what are you appeeling to play?

486
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 3: I'm not actually appealing. I don't think that you just.

487
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: You just said okay, uh so, how do you believe

488
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,319
in one God if there's these multiple principles of diminished

489
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,000
ontological status.

490
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,079
Speaker 3: Because the news is subortinate to the one.

491
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 5: It's not.

492
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: You just restated your position.

493
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just stated the position because.

494
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,279
Speaker 1: How is that consistent with How is that consistent with

495
00:26:56,319 --> 00:26:58,279
the claim that you only worship one God when there's

496
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,000
multiple principles of dem nos ontological status that you're calling.

497
00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 4: God because they don't have the same essence, like I'm

498
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,359
only referring to the one, and how is it not

499
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:19,359
because these are two distinct entities, like this is.

500
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:24,799
Speaker 1: Polly is exactly Polly? That means many, Yeah, greetings from

501
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:36,480
among something. Yeah, so it's all neo platonic argumentation. It's

502
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,480
all directly from preda Plato. But it's not from Plato.

503
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:43,519
It's not neo platonic. And there's multiple entities that are

504
00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:47,640
not poly multiple entities. Greetings. What's up?

505
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,279
Speaker 5: Hey? Could you can you hear?

506
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: Uh huh?

507
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 5: Yeah.

508
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:57,319
Speaker 7: So my question is about the phot schism. That's like

509
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,400
my first one, and it's not really an argue. There's

510
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,640
just a few concerns I've got with decent Orthodox position.

511
00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:11,279
Speaker 1: So, yeah, have you read the Varnick's book? No, I

512
00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,880
hope it actually so. The Varnick is the one of

513
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,400
the most famous Uni eight scholars who basically goes back

514
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:24,839
to excuse me, various Orthodox schisms and sort of regurgitates

515
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:32,160
and revises, not regurgitates, revises the position of Rome. And

516
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,920
that's why now Rome accepts these Eastern fathers as potentially saints.

517
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,519
Speaker 5: Right, okay, yeah, right, well I'll suppose all you for.

518
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: You thought then, yeah, I mean he I would just

519
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,960
defer to your own your own guys for that.

520
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 5: Yeah right, yeah, okay, that's enough.

521
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: There's also another book too that Congar wrote after nine

522
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,160
hundred years, the touches on that from the Roman Catholic perspective,

523
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,400
basically admitting that uh we we can. I mean, this

524
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:06,279
is why Rome has changed their position. I mean, jomp

525
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:08,640
All the second says you can revere these people as

526
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,359
saints when they were heretics for centuries.

527
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's good. I mean, I'll go

528
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,039
look at that. It's that kind of answers my first question.

529
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: Already before you you can ask the hold on, you

530
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,480
can ask the second question to the guy in the

531
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:25,519
chat was talking a bunch of smack. If you aren't

532
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:28,839
gonna come to debate, we're gonna beat you. So Romancaalic,

533
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,160
dude Jay in the chat, come to bate where you're gone,

534
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,160
Go ahead, Yeah, all.

535
00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 5: Right, thank you.

536
00:29:35,519 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 7: So I've spent a lot of time looking at TAG

537
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,880
over the last few months, and I think for a

538
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,240
lot of people it's kind of like a revelation. You know,

539
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:47,599
it's almost a Eureka moment because it's a new side

540
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,599
of things that they haven't considered before, right, I mean,

541
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:53,400
I think a lot of people use like natural theology

542
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,559
straight away and they never even consider this side of things.

543
00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:00,039
So it's been like interesting to go through this, and

544
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,920
if I my understanding of it, it's like a REDUCTI

545
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,599
your argument. So if all the other possibilities of false,

546
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880
then the conclusion of the argument must be true because

547
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,400
only the other arguments or arguments against.

548
00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:18,519
Speaker 5: It can possibly be you know, it couldn't possibly.

549
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,039
Speaker 8: Exist will possibly be true.

550
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 7: So my question really is like, how can you insert

551
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,839
gold into this? Because all the other world views are circular? Right,

552
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,279
So if we use like an empiricis worldview, the impirsis

553
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:40,200
worldview doesn't make sense because in order to validate.

554
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,839
Speaker 1: The argument is not that all the other world views

555
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,519
are circular in ours is not. The argument is that

556
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,559
every worldview is circular. So it becomes a question of

557
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,519
who can give a coherent account of the worldview. So,

558
00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:55,559
in other words, any worldview that posits self evidence or

559
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,680
foundationalist principles, as any Roman Catholic natural theology based worldview

560
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,720
would do, we're saying that that's not going to work.

561
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:07,319
You're in You're gonna end up in some circularity even

562
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:09,720
on your principles of self evidence. So the first point

563
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,799
we make there is to say that your worldview is

564
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:17,200
not actually self evident and not actually foundationalist. You're actually

565
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:20,920
violating the principles that you claim to hold to. And

566
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,359
so if they have two options, there, say a Roman

567
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Catholic natural theology proponent, And this came up in the

568
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Trent debate, right Trent said, no, I still believe in

569
00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:33,519
self evidence. I'll use Descartes cogito. And then what I

570
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,519
argued in the debate was, well, you don't actually believe

571
00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:38,960
it's self evident because you made appeals to other things

572
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,960
to prove it. That means it's not self evident. So, uh,

573
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,400
if you're in if you don't believe in self evidence,

574
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000
then you're in our the And then you're into the

575
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:50,039
boat that I want you to to step into. You're

576
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:52,519
in the position that I've been arguing, which is that

577
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,920
at root, all positions will bottom out at ultimately appealing

578
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,720
to some ultimate authority, and in that sense, at a

579
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:04,200
paradigm level, be circular. That's the point. So we're not

580
00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:06,480
saying that we escape that dilemma, is saying that at

581
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:11,039
a paradigm level, every position has some bottoming out final

582
00:32:11,079 --> 00:32:14,119
authority to appeal to. So that's what TAG is saying.

583
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,599
And TAG does involve in part or reductio internal critique,

584
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,960
but it's not just that. You also have to present

585
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,880
the positive case for our worldview, which is well, our

586
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,680
worldview is grounded in divine revelation, it's grounded in Christian metaphysics,

587
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,240
it is grounded in the theology and the view of history,

588
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:37,920
and the grounding of the universals of logic and so

589
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,279
forth in the divine mind. All of those things for

590
00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:44,720
us would function as the structure of how our web

591
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,400
of belief works. And then we would say, if you

592
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,720
compare that to the web of beliefs of any other worldview,

593
00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,960
the other worldviews can't give an account for their systems,

594
00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:58,200
or they bottom out at something contradictory or absurd, etc.

595
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 7: Okay, so like every single worldview, including your worldview, is

596
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,680
a circular one.

597
00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:09,839
Speaker 1: At base level, Yes, every worldview will bottom out at

598
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,319
something that is self referencing. For everybody who's a natural

599
00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:19,160
theology self evidence proponent, their bottomed out ultimate principles are

600
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,839
whatever they think is self evident. They're axioms, they're dosastically

601
00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:28,400
basic beliefs, and we're simply saying, well, that's arbitrary, and

602
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:34,039
it's also inconsistent. It doesn't work with Chisholm's criterion problem,

603
00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:38,400
it doesn't work with the I mean, there's multiple critiques. So,

604
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,119
for example, the Chisolm if you're not familiar, the criterion

605
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:46,079
problem says you can't have any knowledge claim without a

606
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,960
theory of knowledge. But if you have a theory of knowledge,

607
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,559
by necessity, you also have a knowledge claim because you

608
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,720
claim to know the theory of knowledge. This is a

609
00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:57,200
dilemma for any self evidence foundational proponent that they can't

610
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,240
get out. There's literally no way out of that. You've

611
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,160
got nerds that think they can solve that or whatever,

612
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,079
but they're missing the point that you can't have self

613
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:09,159
evidence about without some level of arbitrary in us. And

614
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,880
the other critique you can make, which is I think

615
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,360
equally is devastating, is if I ask you, okay, well,

616
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,239
so some things are self evident and some things are not. Yes, Well,

617
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,119
that presupposes that you have some prior criteria or standard

618
00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:26,039
by which you list the self evident things versus the

619
00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:29,079
non self evident things. And if that's the case, then

620
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:33,719
there's a more fundamental criteria that undergirds the self evidence criteria.

621
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,679
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, no, that that's a good answer, Thank you

622
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,639
for that. My question then would.

623
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,039
Speaker 1: Be, by the way, do you have the book before

624
00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:44,519
you go on.

625
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,519
Speaker 5: The book? Which books are The.

626
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: Epistemology by W. J. Wood. It's a really good readable

627
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,320
text on this and I recommend that one because the

628
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,480
chapter on foundationalism is really good, like all the stuff

629
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:02,440
that you heard me critiquing Rent in the debate, like

630
00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:06,480
it's in any standard epistemology text, right.

631
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,679
Speaker 5: I will look at that was up to B. J. Wood.

632
00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:11,159
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, his book's really good.

633
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.

634
00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: That's very.

635
00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:16,519
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean that's kind of the problem.

636
00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 7: You don't really want to go into the deep end

637
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:21,639
and start reading things you don't fully understand, because you can,

638
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,480
you know, it just kind of you know, it feels district.

639
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Well, so the Green Bonjeour book on Epistemology is like

640
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:33,000
a grad school textbook. So a lot of people who

641
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,760
buy that find it very difficult. But I would say

642
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,719
if you read the Wood book first, then you'll do

643
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,360
better with the Boneour book.

644
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, that's that was useful. Yeah.

645
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 7: So my question then would be Why does your argument

646
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:50,199
get kind of like a concession. Why does your circularity

647
00:35:50,679 --> 00:35:53,679
receive a concession? Is it because yours begins with something

648
00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,880
that grounds the transcendental categories?

649
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,639
Speaker 1: Well, it's not a concession. Whereas we don't have to

650
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:03,760
answer this problem. We're saying all worldviews are subject to

651
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,199
fundamental circularity. So then the question is, well, then how

652
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:10,440
would we prove any worldview. That's when it gets into coherence,

653
00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:17,039
that the worldview as a whole is coherent, has reasons

654
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:21,480
for that worldview versus other worldviews. So we're not excluding ourselves.

655
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:23,239
We're saying, no, we're also part of the same thing.

656
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,519
We're all in the same boat. Your self evidence is

657
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:29,199
not true, if I foundationals is not true, then we're

658
00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:30,880
all in the same boat. Well, if we're all in

659
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,320
the same boat, how are we gonna judge between worldviews?

660
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:35,440
The only way to judge between world views would be

661
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,119
to compare the systems as a whole and see which

662
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:40,440
ones are coherent, which ones work, and which ones don't.

663
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:45,639
Speaker 7: Right, And there must be some worldview because knowledge has

664
00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:46,960
to exist because.

665
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well everybody necessarily will have some basic beliefs in

666
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,440
the three elements of a worldview, right, everybody will have

667
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,639
some basic belief on metaphysics, ethics, and epistemology.

668
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, I guess my final point would what would

669
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,280
you say to someone who would deny the existence of

670
00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:05,400
truanscendental categories altogether.

671
00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you could go that route, but you

672
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,000
would be in an even more difficult situation because transcenal

673
00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:17,119
categories are the things that undergird the possibility of predication

674
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,639
at all. So if you deny those things, you're in

675
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:23,320
an even deeper boat of trying to figure out You're

676
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,760
into deeper waters trying to figure out how predication is

677
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,559
possible at all. I mean, in other words, they're not

678
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,119
things that we're making up. We're saying that transnial categories

679
00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:35,719
are the preconditions for the possibility of predication or knowledge

680
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,920
at all. So if you want to deny those things,

681
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,840
it'd be like saying that you know, in order to

682
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,280
have a cake, I necessarily need these ingredients, and then

683
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,400
I say, well, what if I deny the ingredients, Well,

684
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,320
you're not gonna have a cake.

685
00:37:48,639 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 5: Yeah No, that's that's great. Yeah, thank you for answer.

686
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:54,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say too, I'll try to remember to

687
00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:57,239
send you a couple of FDA's papers, because he also

688
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,400
touches on these subjects very well. Let's see now, the

689
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,119
dude talking smack in the chat? Are you here? I

690
00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:11,280
don't see who you are. Maybe you're this guy, young Catholic?

691
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:20,320
What's up? Hello, so revel. If you're not gonna come chat,

692
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,599
just get booted. What's up? Man? What's up?

693
00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 8: I just had a question, not like a debate or anything.

694
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,039
Speaker 5: You just wanted to ask.

695
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 9: I'm Catholic, by the way, but what's the Eastern Orthodox

696
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:37,840
position on baptizing non Eastern Orthodox or rebaptizing in a sense?

697
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 8: Is that allowed?

698
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 9: Sound of the Catholic position? Is that only certain denominations

699
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,119
have valid baptisms? What's the what's the Eastern Orthodox position?

700
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:53,039
Speaker 1: It's a case by case basis on the decision of economya.

701
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:54,840
That's up to the local bishops.

702
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 8: Okay, I mean, like would that be I mean, wouldn't

703
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,519
that be like a contradiction that certain bishops?

704
00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:10,519
Speaker 2: Is it?

705
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 5: Under?

706
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 8: Is it the Eastern Orthodox disposition.

707
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 9: That the bishops have the authority to make the decision?

708
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: Yeah? The ultimate interpreters of the cannons and their application

709
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,840
are the local episcopate.

710
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 8: Okay, I mean, I only had one question, So.

711
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: Okay, that's one. Appreciate it. Let's see, I don't know

712
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,920
where so how can you join the The link is

713
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,679
in the show description and it has literally been linked

714
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,400
in the chat a million times. So where's the romancality?

715
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,360
People are talking smack like they're the ones that I

716
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,360
want them to come? Where are they at? So you'll

717
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,000
have to tell me who you are because there's like

718
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:08,000
twenty people, fourteen people requesting to speak, So I don't

719
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:17,039
know who you are. Peter, what's up? Peter?

720
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 3: Can you hear me?

721
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 10: Man?

722
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 11: Hey, I have a question about John six forty. Okay, basically,

723
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,000
I had a moment where I was looking at a

724
00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:39,440
picture of Jesus, and while I was looking at the picture,

725
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,119
my spiritual eyes were open and I came to the

726
00:40:42,159 --> 00:40:50,159
realization that he was God, and I believe that he

727
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,039
was God in that moment while looking at him. Is

728
00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:55,679
that in accordance with John six forty?

729
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: Well, I think John six forty is a text that

730
00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:05,000
obviously shows the deity of Christ. So but I mean

731
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:10,039
an orthodox view, we don't typically rely on mystical experiences

732
00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:12,679
because we can fall into prelass so we always guard

733
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:16,880
people against trusting in those kinds of things, not to

734
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,400
say that they can't happen. But I wouldn't rest my

735
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,440
dogmas or my beliefs on a personal experience like that.

736
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,079
I would rather say that The text itself says that

737
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,920
rather than trying to, you know, fall fall back on

738
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:35,159
some sort of of a mystical experience.

739
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 11: I see you're saying, then, what would you what would

740
00:41:39,519 --> 00:41:43,239
your be a idea of what John six forty means.

741
00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it means that Christ, in our nature, even though

742
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,360
he's already by nature equal to the Father and has

743
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,480
all the same powers as the Father. As he says

744
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,039
in John five, he's saying that also in his status

745
00:41:57,119 --> 00:42:01,239
as human being, that he also is granted power in

746
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,400
our nature. So essentially, the son of God, who is

747
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,880
also the son of Man, now has in our nature

748
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,400
the ability to raise everyone up and give them eternal life.

749
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,039
So shows the deedy of Christ. It shows that Christ

750
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:14,599
is the one that will, by his divine power, raise

751
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:16,960
everyone from the dead at the resurrection, and that he

752
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,960
will judge the living and the dead, which he could

753
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,159
only do if he were divine.

754
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,639
Speaker 11: It says that everyone who looks to or looks on

755
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:26,159
the sun.

756
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 2: What does that mean to you?

757
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: I mean's look in faith. I don't think it's necessarily

758
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,000
literally saying that the physical movement of the eyes. It's

759
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:51,599
saying look in the sense of look in faith. Ali Malik,

760
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,360
you gotta unmute man, Ali Ali?

761
00:42:59,119 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 5: What's up?

762
00:42:59,559 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: Dude?

763
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 9: Kay?

764
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: Did you turn your mic on? We can't hear you. Uh,

765
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:13,119
turn your mic on and come back and I'll let

766
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:20,840
you back in. Uh fazlan Ahmad? What's up?

767
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 9: Yah h.

768
00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: H Hello, I'm lord of it.

769
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:51,079
Speaker 5: Be there.

770
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: So I can't hear you, man, what's up?

771
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah? So I am fine. So so I have

772
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,840
a doubt. So recently you.

773
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 10: Had a dibate to the Muslim So yeah, I have

774
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:08,639
a doubt in Christianity, a doubt so yeah, doubt mean

775
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,039
so so when you say the attribute of good, attribute

776
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:16,159
of Elohim, So, what do you say about that one?

777
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,320
Are they eternal like you talk about ISLAMO when it

778
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:20,000
comes to Allah.

779
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,679
Speaker 2: You took about that attribute of Almah.

780
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 10: So what do you say the attribute of Elohim the

781
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,519
good of old New Testament?

782
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,199
Speaker 1: I mean we say it's always been the Trinity. Alohim

783
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,400
is a reference to the Trinity.

784
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,599
Speaker 10: Okay, But what about the attribute of Aloheim like his speech,

785
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,280
his system, his power, his love.

786
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was explaining in the beginning was

787
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,320
that there's different actions in different attributes. So some of

788
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,760
them are actualized or done from all eternity, like love

789
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,519
or glory. Other attributes are attributes or actions particular and

790
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:58,440
relevant only to the created orders, such as divine providence.

791
00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:02,760
God does not actualized divine providence from all eternity because

792
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,079
that would require an eternal world. However, he has always

793
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:10,119
had the power of divine providence or of creating, even

794
00:45:10,159 --> 00:45:11,800
though he didn't eternally.

795
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 10: Create, Okay, but simply put together, like, are they created

796
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:19,079
or are they uncreated?

797
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: His attribute?

798
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: Now, God has no created parts or attributes okay.

799
00:45:24,159 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 2: The uncreated. So like in Islam he said the empty

800
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,159
the uncreated?

801
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,159
Speaker 1: Correct, Okay, So.

802
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 10: That they are part of him or they are separate

803
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:31,719
from him.

804
00:45:33,119 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: We don't believe that distinctions entail parts, composition, or division.

805
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: No, I'm asking they are within himself or a.

806
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 5: Well.

807
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: We believe in what's called the essence sentergy distinction. So

808
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,000
they're distinct, but they're really him. It's a both and

809
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:47,719
not an either or.

810
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: Okay.

811
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,679
Speaker 10: But like as an example, when it come to Jesus,

812
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:53,519
his attribute of court.

813
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 2: Jesus is the word of Court, so that is an attribute.

814
00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:58,320
So in the sense that Jesus should be.

815
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,159
Speaker 1: We do not believe that it's an attribute. We believe

816
00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:04,239
that he's a distinct person or hypostasis. So he's the

817
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,039
second person of the trinity, not an attribute.

818
00:46:08,199 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 10: But his speech is attribute. Right to the word of

819
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,440
God is attribute of guoth. The wisdom of God is

820
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,239
attribute of good.

821
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:17,519
Speaker 1: Right, it is both an attribute and in this case

822
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,679
a person as well, because in our view, the attributes

823
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,960
have a manifestation that happens in each person in a

824
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:27,480
unique way, in a unique mode. So the speech of

825
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:29,920
God is not just an attribute. In this case, it

826
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,840
is also a person.

827
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,079
Speaker 10: Okay, then how about the wisdom of Gurt.

828
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,199
Speaker 2: It is an attribute to right.

829
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: The scriptures identify Christ as the wisdom of God as

830
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,639
well as both an attribute and a manifest and a person.

831
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,079
Speaker 10: But there are so many attribuments, like the counsel of Gurth,

832
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,440
the glory of.

833
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: Gurth right, and so my basis is what divine revelation

834
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:55,000
tells us, not can I make every attribute a person?

835
00:46:55,039 --> 00:46:57,360
We don't believe every attribute is a person. What I'm

836
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,159
saying is there are two different things going on here.

837
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:02,519
One is the Trinity and then the movement of those

838
00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:04,960
attributes or energies in the way that they manifest or

839
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,639
the way that they move. So, uh, you could say,

840
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:10,719
for example, the Holy Spirit is the law of the

841
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,079
manifestation of the Love of God. I am not identifying

842
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:16,480
the Holy Spirit as the Love of God because love

843
00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:19,239
is an attribute common to Father's Son and Holy Spirit,

844
00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:22,199
but he's uniquely manifested by the person of the Spirit.

845
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 2: Okay, So what is your criteria? And so what is

846
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,960
the criteria to attribute to become a person? Yeah? What

847
00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:33,239
what is the criteria?

848
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: Divine revelation is the criteria?

849
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:36,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, the religion.

850
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,639
Speaker 10: But as an example of you all, if I go

851
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,159
to the word of court, so use a word of

852
00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:42,559
courde is a person also a no?

853
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,559
Speaker 1: No? So the divine revelation, I mean, what's in it?

854
00:47:45,639 --> 00:47:47,800
For example, the Torah and the prophets. That's where we

855
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,599
get the Doctor and the Trinity from. It doesn't come

856
00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:52,039
from Greek philosopher, It's not invented by Constantin or Paul.

857
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,079
It's in the Torah.

858
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to that point.

859
00:47:56,679 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 10: But as an example of the same Bible talk about

860
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,599
the wisdom of the glory of Court. So when it

861
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:04,639
come to glory of quote, how you say that is

862
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,119
not a person. How you get to that conclusion. The

863
00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:10,400
glory of God is not a person, but the right.

864
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,519
Speaker 1: So if you read it, I understand what your question is.

865
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,519
If you read Ezekiel one to ten, glory is a

866
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:20,480
attribute but is also manifested as the person of the Son.

867
00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:25,199
So our starting point is not ninety nine names or

868
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:27,920
all of God's attributes. We start with the person of

869
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,039
the Father, the generation of the Son, and the procession

870
00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:35,760
of the Spirit. Those three persons uniquely manifest every attribute

871
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,960
in a unique way. That's what I'm saying. So there

872
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,920
could never be new persons. We can't come up with

873
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,960
a fourth There's not ninety nine persons or whatever. Each

874
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:49,840
attribute moves in a certain way from the Father through

875
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,880
the Son and in the Spirit. That movement is eternal.

876
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,480
That's our trinitarian doctrine.

877
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got that point, But what is your criteria like?

878
00:48:59,159 --> 00:48:59,760
Have an example?

879
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: I to the criteria is that divine revelation states and

880
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,960
gives me the grounding first and foremost to begin the

881
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,599
theology with the theology of the persons of the Trinity.

882
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:14,360
So if there's let me let me explain that. So

883
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,079
in the Old Testament, for example, we have Yahweh. We

884
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:19,360
have his Angel messenger who comes in time and space,

885
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,000
who manifests as his messenger, as his angel, as his face,

886
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,599
as his glory, as his wisdom, as his word. We

887
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,320
think that's the son, that's Jesus in the Old Testament,

888
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,360
and his spirit is present all throughout. So these three

889
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,119
persons or hypostases are manifested all throughout the Torah and

890
00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:39,119
the prophets. That's our criteria and starting point for where

891
00:49:39,159 --> 00:49:41,559
we would then look to. Well, then what are these

892
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:43,360
attributes and how are they manifested?

893
00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 10: Okay, but when it comes to the Spirit of Gurt

894
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,880
Bible just moment, the seven.

895
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:52,199
Speaker 2: Separate spirit trift.

896
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,639
Speaker 10: So if the seven spirit of Court, then how can

897
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:55,960
you end up in Trinity?

898
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: Now, the seventh spirits are said to be attributes or

899
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,719
operations w are common to all three. That's not the

900
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,400
same thing as the Holy Spirit. Two different things. Because

901
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,400
when you look at the seven spirits, they're listed in Isaiah.

902
00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:12,000
So Isaiah says the spirit of Wisdom, the spirit of knowledge,

903
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,559
the spirit of fear of the Lord. All those are

904
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:16,039
on the person of Christ because that passage in Isaiah

905
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:20,519
eleven is about the incarnation. Those are common attributes that

906
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:22,800
are called the seven spirits of God. It doesn't mean

907
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,280
that God literally has seven holy spirits. That's distinct from

908
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,559
the person of the Holy Spirit.

909
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 10: But in the seven is spirit is spirit of Cody

910
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,280
is mentioned the same spirit in Genesis, right, So you

911
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,519
identify that as a separate person.

912
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: Right, But that's not right. So it's from Isaiah eleven

913
00:50:42,199 --> 00:50:44,079
and it says that the spirit of the Lord will

914
00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:46,679
rest upon him. That's the Holy Spirit, because the Holy

915
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,760
Spirit in the Baptism of Christ rests upon him. I

916
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,400
know you don't believe this, but I'm saying that it's

917
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,559
not inconsistent within our texts. So what Isaiah eleven is

918
00:50:55,599 --> 00:50:58,480
predicting is a Messianic prediction. Right, there shall come forth

919
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,880
a rod from the stem of Jesse. That's David. Jesse's

920
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:05,639
David's dad. So this is talking about the Thevidic lineage

921
00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:09,400
of the Messiah. We think that this branch is Christ.

922
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,800
The spirit of the Lord will rest upon him, that's

923
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,519
the Holy Spirit. That's what happens in Christ baptism, the

924
00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:17,519
spirit of wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, and fear of

925
00:51:17,519 --> 00:51:21,320
the Lord. Right, So these the seven here is just

926
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,639
a symbolic number of both the Holy Spirit and the

927
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:27,360
attributes that are common to all all three persons of

928
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:27,920
the Trinity.

929
00:51:30,639 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I got that.

930
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:35,679
Speaker 10: But what I'm telling you, so the it's mentioned seven spirit,

931
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,800
but the second spirit is the Holy Spirit, the spirit

932
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:39,159
of court.

933
00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: Right, It's just it's just a symbolic right, there's not

934
00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:46,159
seven attributes. It's just a symbolic number of perfection. There's

935
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,440
there's other attributes that are common.

936
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:55,639
Speaker 2: Like uh, okay, okay, okay.

937
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,039
Speaker 10: So, but when it comes to the endle of courte,

938
00:51:58,119 --> 00:52:02,199
like I think in the Full of dismentioned angel Gabriel

939
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,400
is the endle of code.

940
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,119
Speaker 1: Angel. Angel is a word that just means messenger.

941
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 5: Right.

942
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: So in the Old Testament, when it's used, sometimes it's Gabriel,

943
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,639
like in Daniel, and it specifies that Daniel came to

944
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,400
Gabriel came to Daniel. Other times it's specified that it's

945
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,679
Michael at the end of Daniel, for example, Michael the

946
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,719
arch angel defends the nation of Israel. But in other

947
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,199
places the Angel messenger and again it just means messenger

948
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,159
that can be a created or an uncreated messenger. And

949
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,400
that's why we say in so many places that the

950
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,159
angel is called God, called Yahweh, and worshiped in the

951
00:52:35,159 --> 00:52:35,760
Old Testament.

952
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 10: Okay, but just on explicit evidence side the angle of

953
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:43,320
courde is Jesus.

954
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: I can say that again. I can hear you say

955
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:45,599
that again.

956
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, do we have an explicit evidence the New Testament say,

957
00:52:49,039 --> 00:52:50,199
Jesus is the angle of court?

958
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:53,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Jesus and John five through nine identifies himself

959
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:56,960
as an angel. In those chapters. He says that he's

960
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,679
the one that appeared on Mount Sinai and the Burning

961
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,000
Bush and Extodu three where the angel says I am

962
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,920
that I am. Exos twenty three, he says that the

963
00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:07,840
name of Yahweh is in that angel messenger, so he's

964
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,599
called Yahweh. And remember God doesn't give his glory to another.

965
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:12,800
And yet here he is saying that this angel messenger

966
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:18,400
is is Yahweh. So Jesus also says that Abraham looked

967
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,480
forward to believe in him.

968
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 10: Johnny, they're explicit, right, No.

969
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,079
Speaker 1: It's explicit. He explicitly says that he's the one that

970
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:33,960
talked face to face with Moses. He says, no one

971
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,320
sees the Father in any time. This is John five

972
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,400
through nine. Right, John five, he says no one sees

973
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,199
the Father at any time, and yet Moses talked face

974
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,480
to face with God. Who was Moses talking to If

975
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:48,159
no one sees the Father, Jesus is saying that he

976
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:50,320
is the one talking face to face with Moses. And

977
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,480
that's why he tells the Pharisees that you have to

978
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:54,960
honor and worship the Son as you honor and worship

979
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,840
the Father. And that's why the Pharisees then went to

980
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:58,800
stone Jesus in John five.

981
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 10: But when it comes like Moses to quote that the

982
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,719
it is he did not talk with the glory quote.

983
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: Well, it says right. It says in Exodus both that

984
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,239
Moses talked face to face with God. It says that

985
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,000
no one can see God face to face. So the

986
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:25,599
resolution to this dilemma is that Jesus is the face

987
00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:28,000
of God that talked to Moses face to face. And

988
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:29,840
that's the argument used to making in John five.

989
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,039
Speaker 2: You can't have the opinion, but.

990
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:39,079
Speaker 1: I'm gonna move on. I'm not trying to be rude.

991
00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:41,599
It is really hard to hear what you're saying. So

992
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:43,559
we're gonna move on to the next but thank you

993
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:48,719
for those questions. With the next one, Uh, Welsh papist,

994
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:57,239
what's up faith alone? Protestants call in If you the

995
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,280
chat is not for you to spam to British ca enter,

996
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:01,039
you're booted.

997
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:09,639
Speaker 8: Amy Jay, Yes.

998
00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 12: Sir, I just kind of just a few questions in

999
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,679
regards to Orthodox biology.

1000
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 13: I'm a Catholic.

1001
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 14: I'm just curious about a couple of things.

1002
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:23,599
Speaker 12: Obviously, you would reject sort of the Augustinian view of

1003
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:28,039
original sin. The Eastern tradition always did, and I'm just

1004
00:55:28,119 --> 00:55:31,280
curious as to why that is, because you know, like

1005
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:32,320
say passages like.

1006
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,079
Speaker 14: Psalm fifty where David.

1007
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 12: Talks about you know, my mother, you know, bought me

1008
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,199
in sin, or say Roman spy for example. I'm just

1009
00:55:41,199 --> 00:55:45,119
curious what is the Eastern perspective on passages.

1010
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:45,039
Speaker 2: Such as that.

1011
00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, the Augustinian view has bound up with his doctrine,

1012
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:49,719
which he's very explicit on. I give you all the

1013
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,920
references where he says that all men were in Adam

1014
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,119
as in an archetype. He says this in the City

1015
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:57,360
of God explicitly that means for him that not only

1016
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,280
are we in Adam in potentia, but we're also guiltilty

1017
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,880
of adam sin because we are in him as an archetype.

1018
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,760
This leads Augustine to his massive damn Nata doctrine that

1019
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,880
all men are damned as a damned mass, a damn

1020
00:56:08,079 --> 00:56:10,760
ball of damnation in Adam, and thus he thinks that

1021
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,679
there's inherited guilt for infants. Roman Catholic theology in the

1022
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,199
Late Middle Ages softens this with the limbo of infants

1023
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,960
and so forth, but I think they still retain some

1024
00:56:19,039 --> 00:56:21,639
of these principles. This is what leads Roman Catholicism to

1025
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,679
things like the immaculate conception doctrine. They think that for

1026
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,760
Mary to be pure, she would also have to have

1027
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,840
been conceived immaculately. We don't believe any of that. We

1028
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,719
do think she's a spotless virgencyt in committee the actual sins.

1029
00:56:33,559 --> 00:56:35,639
But many, all of these fron church fathers are almost

1030
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:39,239
unanimous in saying that infants do not bear personal guilt.

1031
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:41,800
So how do it Does that mean they're Pallagian? No, They,

1032
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,559
just as you said, simply didn't accept or didn't believe

1033
00:56:44,559 --> 00:56:48,199
in the Augustinian doctrine. Of inherited guilt, and it's also

1034
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,199
bound up with Augustine's collapsing of person into nature, both

1035
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,800
in the trinity and in humanity. In Orthodox theology, for

1036
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,960
Saint Maximus, for example, guilt is only something that can

1037
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,199
be had as by an individual person. So the mode

1038
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,079
of willing that you do as an individual hypostasis, is

1039
00:57:05,079 --> 00:57:07,840
the only way that you could ever be guilty of something.

1040
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,519
This is why Ezekiel, for example, says that the son

1041
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:13,159
shall not bear the sins of the father. Well, how

1042
00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:15,559
do we explain this? Well in Romans five the text

1043
00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:18,840
that you mention if you read Mayandorf's critique of Augustine,

1044
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:21,280
and this is also in Pameazanski's book too, by the way,

1045
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,000
as a whole section about the Augustinian doctrin of original sin.

1046
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:27,400
This is the standard rokor dogmatic theology book. He says

1047
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,880
that the mistake that Augustine made was assuming that all

1048
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,760
men sin in Adam, when the text in the Greek

1049
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,320
reads all men sin because of Adam sin. So it

1050
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,039
doesn't mean that we're guilty of adam sin. It means

1051
00:57:40,079 --> 00:57:42,920
the effects of Adam's sin pass on to us, and

1052
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,079
so in that sense, yes, we have the contagion, we

1053
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:49,239
have the deprivation of grace. We agree with all those things,

1054
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,440
which is why we baptize infants, but we do not

1055
00:57:51,559 --> 00:57:54,760
believe that infants are guilty of personal actual sin.

1056
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 12: Thanks for that answers. So the next one would be

1057
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:00,920
when you by the way, by.

1058
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: The way, before you, before you go to that. I

1059
00:58:02,599 --> 00:58:05,599
just remembered I do have a three hour talk on

1060
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:09,440
this topic, going through the text of Augustine and others.

1061
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,519
If you're interested in in a longer version of this.

1062
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 14: I was sure looking to terms sort of new to

1063
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,039
your stuff. So anyway, what was.

1064
00:58:18,039 --> 00:58:18,559
Speaker 13: I ready to say?

1065
00:58:18,559 --> 00:58:18,679
Speaker 10: Oh?

1066
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,519
Speaker 12: Yes, you had a discussion with the slimilantin yesday and

1067
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:25,880
you made a case for monarcical trinitarianism, which I've come

1068
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,159
across in say Saint Basil and the two Saint Gregor Cappadocian.

1069
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:30,719
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1070
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm just curious before them because just from my

1071
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,199
own personal reading of the Church Harvest so far, you

1072
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,400
just say, if you were to go before them, who

1073
00:58:40,679 --> 00:58:41,480
else would you say?

1074
00:58:41,519 --> 00:58:42,639
Speaker 14: Hell to the monarcicle?

1075
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,039
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think Ireon As teaches it. I

1076
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:47,639
think you can see an ignacious where he talks about

1077
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:50,519
the threefold structure in the church, mirroring father and Son.

1078
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,519
I think it's it's pretty consistent.

1079
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 7: Uh.

1080
00:58:54,679 --> 00:58:56,679
Speaker 1: The only the only time I can think of this

1081
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:02,639
really becoming confused is in the argument. So after Origin,

1082
00:59:02,719 --> 00:59:05,960
if you look in First Principles, he starts arguing that

1083
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,960
what divine simplicity means is what Neoplatonists mean, and so

1084
00:59:11,119 --> 00:59:14,360
after Origin you get a tendency. Even Augustine when he

1085
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,039
argues for philly Oquah, for example, he's basically cribs, you know,

1086
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:21,440
on the Trinity, certain passages from the Aeneids. So this

1087
00:59:21,559 --> 00:59:24,960
idea of simplicity that passes into Plotinus and others really

1088
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,880
gets regurgitated in Origin in Augustine and becomes more and

1089
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:30,960
more popular in the West. To start your trend turn

1090
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:35,039
theology with the simplicity of the essence based on quite

1091
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:40,559
literally a plutonium definition from Origin's First Principles, Chapter one.

1092
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:42,679
I think it's around fourteen, but it's book one of

1093
00:59:42,719 --> 00:59:46,119
First Principles, and then it becomes pretty standard for people

1094
00:59:46,159 --> 00:59:49,719
to utilize that as the working definition of what simplicity

1095
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,199
has to be. And if you read Bradshaw's book Arizola

1096
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:56,840
East and West as well as Rodigalwitz's book on Divine

1097
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,679
Simplicity in the Cappadoceans Day points out that the Cappadocians

1098
01:00:00,679 --> 01:00:04,800
don't first and foremost utilize this Plutonian definition of simplicity.

1099
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,000
For them, simplicity first and foremost is whether God is,

1100
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:11,239
whether God acts or is acted upon. So that's a

1101
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,800
reference to simplicity, that's a reference to what characterizes the

1102
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:19,559
divine nature. It's impassibility, it's it's not changeable. But when

1103
01:00:19,679 --> 01:00:22,519
we speak of God acting in the world, that's the

1104
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:25,840
essence centergy distinction, which characterizes the Cappadocians as well. And

1105
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,400
so they begin with distinctions in the trinity, not with

1106
01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:31,639
the essence and the Trinity.

1107
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 14: Thank you.

1108
01:00:34,199 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 12: I just got two more questions. Whether the next one

1109
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:38,719
would be in regards to the ic and creed i e.

1110
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,679
Speaker 14: The video quay. Obviously, the videokre was rejected in.

1111
01:00:41,639 --> 01:00:44,079
Speaker 12: The East because of the manner and how it was

1112
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:46,960
placed into the creed. So obviously the one reason was

1113
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:51,599
part of the ecclesiology, obviously, but what was more the

1114
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:56,159
theological reasons for the rejection of the video qui as well.

1115
01:00:56,639 --> 01:00:59,039
Speaker 1: Well. The classic text on this is the Mysticgology of

1116
01:00:59,079 --> 01:01:03,159
Saint Photius. And then another I highly recommend even more

1117
01:01:03,199 --> 01:01:06,519
than that one is the reprinting of Saint gregor At

1118
01:01:06,519 --> 01:01:10,199
Palomas's book Apidictic Treatise on the Holy Spirit, because what

1119
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,800
Palamas does is really build on the argumentation in Photius's

1120
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,159
Critique of the Philioquay and take it to the next level,

1121
01:01:16,519 --> 01:01:19,880
so he gets way more in depth with Apidictic logic

1122
01:01:20,039 --> 01:01:23,480
and argumentation, and those two books I think are essential.

1123
01:01:23,559 --> 01:01:25,840
So I would recommend reading those two to see what

1124
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,119
what they were arguing in Photius's day, in Palamas's day.

1125
01:01:30,719 --> 01:01:31,039
Speaker 8: Thank you.

1126
01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:33,719
Speaker 14: Last question would be punny it up about Palomas in a.

1127
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,119
Speaker 12: Sense, Palamas is obviously the first won't be the right

1128
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:40,199
way to put it, the first person to really put

1129
01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:41,880
forward the essence energy distinction.

1130
01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: No, I don't think that's true at all.

1131
01:01:44,599 --> 01:01:46,239
Speaker 12: Well, I mean it is any right, I mean, is

1132
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:50,199
in a full disclosure, in full writing, so speA.

1133
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:53,039
Speaker 1: I mean that it's all throughout on the Orthodox faith.

1134
01:01:53,079 --> 01:01:55,920
I mean John Damascus is Christology is all premised on

1135
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,679
the essen center distinction. Saint Maximus is a dispute with

1136
01:01:59,679 --> 01:02:02,239
Paris is all premised on the essencenary. That whole book

1137
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,360
is based on the argument the s sentaristinction.

1138
01:02:05,199 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 14: Did you say, what's his name name? Saint John and Damascus.

1139
01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1140
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: The third book of On the Orthodox Faith, chapter fifteen

1141
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,760
and on is all essencenrigy distinction applied to Christology. Say,

1142
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,360
Maximus's entire book Disputation with Piris is all based on

1143
01:02:21,639 --> 01:02:24,440
essenceentarty distinction. So another what I'm arguing, what I'm pointing

1144
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,159
out is that essenceentary astinction is way more clear and

1145
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:35,960
perceptible in Christology even than it is in Trinitarian theology.

1146
01:02:36,719 --> 01:02:40,199
Speaker 12: Just as well as small caveat question for yourself from

1147
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,719
ja bec as I'm aware that you were. You were

1148
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,159
Roman Catholic once upon a time.

1149
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 14: Obviously what.

1150
01:02:47,159 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 12: Convinced you of the essence energy distinction over say, divine

1151
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,599
simplicity is taught by the tomis like a quietness and such.

1152
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: Going through a lot of essays and articles debating it.

1153
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:03,079
In Ergetic Procession had a about a forty page comment

1154
01:03:03,159 --> 01:03:05,639
debate many many years ago where they were debating this

1155
01:03:05,679 --> 01:03:07,199
back and forth. That was one of the first things

1156
01:03:07,239 --> 01:03:12,320
that got me questioning it. I read Philip Schard's book

1157
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:15,079
Greek East, Latin West and the essay in there on

1158
01:03:15,119 --> 01:03:18,360
the energies was really another thing that was moving me

1159
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:22,039
in that direction. I started reading the Cappadocians at length,

1160
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,800
and I noticed that it's not just Letter two thirty four.

1161
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,119
It's pretty consistent in all the Cappadocians to argue on

1162
01:03:28,159 --> 01:03:30,719
the basis of the essen centeris stinction, including basils on

1163
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:34,519
the Holy Spirit, including basils against Eunomius. And then when

1164
01:03:34,559 --> 01:03:37,280
I moved into reading a lot of Saint Cyril, noticing

1165
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,559
that Saint Cyril makes use of the essence centertys sinction

1166
01:03:39,599 --> 01:03:43,239
all the time. It's fundamental to his argumentation about how

1167
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:46,960
the Eucharus is the real presence it. Then moving into

1168
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,760
reading a lot of Saint Maximus and seeing that Maximus

1169
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,559
clearly teaches the essenceinerti stinction all over the place John

1170
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:57,400
Damascus teaches it. When I noticed the debate between when

1171
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:01,719
Aquinas rejects John Damascus on the essenceinnies stinction explicitly. This

1172
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,119
is in his work de Veritate Aquinas cites mymonities is

1173
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:08,320
the reason why he rejects the essenceneries stinction of John

1174
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,960
the Masaca. So that was very telling to me where

1175
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:16,199
this idea was coming from. Classical theism, Mymonides, Plotinus, et cetera.

1176
01:04:16,599 --> 01:04:19,719
It really has nothing to do with what's argued in

1177
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,159
terms of the Old Testament, and that's where the real

1178
01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:27,079
clincher was. I read Bradshaw's essay on essence energy what

1179
01:04:27,199 --> 01:04:29,559
kind of distinction? And then I read his book ariosol

1180
01:04:29,599 --> 01:04:32,199
aasim Last and then all of his other essays where

1181
01:04:32,199 --> 01:04:34,199
he talks about the manifestation of divine glory, and then

1182
01:04:34,199 --> 01:04:38,679
I think the main final clincher was the Theophanes. The

1183
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:42,400
Theophanes are clear as day God in time and space.

1184
01:04:43,159 --> 01:04:46,760
It's literally rejected and not possible on a Tomistic, Roman,

1185
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,960
Catholic ads schema, and that's why they all teach that

1186
01:04:50,159 --> 01:04:54,400
the Theophanes are created angelic beings, just like Muslims, just

1187
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:54,880
like Jews.

1188
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 14: Thanks for your time, Jage, Absolutely.

1189
01:04:58,559 --> 01:05:02,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, well a remember this guy is when we had

1190
01:05:02,119 --> 01:05:04,760
the two Thomas the other day, Colin, and we had

1191
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:10,159
this argument, what do we get Jewish Muslim ex to Jesus,

1192
01:05:11,039 --> 01:05:15,480
They're worshiping an angel. The glory of God is an angel,

1193
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:19,639
a created being. There's no created God, there's no created glory.

1194
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:25,079
You can't worship creatures, you can't worship angels, and by angels,

1195
01:05:25,079 --> 01:05:28,000
I mean created angelic beings. Can't worship Michael and Gabriel.

1196
01:05:30,199 --> 01:05:33,519
You can worship the Angel of the Covenant, who's Jesus,

1197
01:05:33,679 --> 01:05:36,400
because he's not a creature, He's the eternal son of God.

1198
01:05:38,119 --> 01:05:39,960
Aaron lifted up his hand towards the people, and he

1199
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:41,800
blessed them. He came down from the sin offering and

1200
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,239
the burnt offering and the peace offering. Moses and Aaron

1201
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,519
wentner the tabernacle came out and blessed the people, and

1202
01:05:47,679 --> 01:05:52,719
the glory of Leahweh appeared to all. Fire came out

1203
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,760
from before the Lord consume the burnt offering. What is

1204
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,679
Paul sayd hebrews Our God is a consuming fire. This

1205
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,519
is not a created fire. God has no created fire.

1206
01:06:03,679 --> 01:06:06,760
This is the uncreated light and fire of God. John one,

1207
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:14,480
uncreated light, John one versus created light Genesis one, Matthew seventeen.

1208
01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:19,039
Uncreated light emanates from the resurrect or from the transfigured Christ.

1209
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,079
That same uncreated light is the same uncreated light and

1210
01:06:22,119 --> 01:06:25,800
glory here. What do the Israelites do? Do they say

1211
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,840
thank you Yahweh for a created image of angelic glory? No,

1212
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:34,559
they say fall down their face and worship God. This

1213
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:39,559
passage is so adamantly clear to refute the stupidity of

1214
01:06:39,639 --> 01:06:43,679
the Roman Catholic Thomas. And that's why I again shared

1215
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:51,239
this paper the other day, Bodies of God. I'll just

1216
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,199
get the quotes up for you because I have it

1217
01:06:54,280 --> 01:07:27,519
on my desktop. All right, hopefully you can see this

1218
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:44,320
if you're looking on YouTube. Summary and conclusion a Quitnas

1219
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:49,639
deals with anthromomorphic descriptions and images. More directly, whether God

1220
01:07:49,719 --> 01:07:53,119
is depicted in dimensions, hands, eyes, et cetera, standing or

1221
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,840
in the case of Isaiah, it is not God himself

1222
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,880
because God is absolutely simple and God is spirit. God

1223
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,760
cannot manifest in time and space. And again they're so silly,

1224
01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:07,280
these Tomas. They don't even realize that this undercuts the incarnation.

1225
01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:11,840
And what is a Quitas's view, well, contrasted to Summers,

1226
01:08:13,079 --> 01:08:16,720
it is the opposite of Summers. Hence why we always

1227
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:22,239
reference the Summer's book. So hopefully you can see that. Now,

1228
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:26,439
let me find you the actual full paper here, had

1229
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:30,720
it pulled up the other day. Let me see if

1230
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,520
I can find it. Bodies of God.

1231
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,359
Speaker 2: Let the bodies, the flu let the bodies.

1232
01:08:49,640 --> 01:09:14,319
Speaker 1: No, that's not it. Here it does Aquinas and Sohmer

1233
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,960
on Bodies of God the paper by Richard Wilson here,

1234
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:25,399
that's a necessary read for illustrating this principle, this point,

1235
01:09:28,199 --> 01:09:31,479
which is that the atomistic ads doctrine in terms of

1236
01:09:32,239 --> 01:09:35,600
denying the Theophanes, which is explicit. Remember that guy that

1237
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,000
called him the other day that said, I don't think

1238
01:09:38,079 --> 01:09:42,960
Aquinas denies the Theophanes. Yeah, he does. So no idea

1239
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,359
where you have no idea what you're talking about. This

1240
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,319
paper is good in contrasting these two views. Now again,

1241
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:53,800
Sohmer is not orthodox. Why are we recommending a Jewish guy?

1242
01:09:54,039 --> 01:09:59,319
Because Sohmer is arguing that Hebrew Revelation, contrary to his

1243
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:08,119
own revenge traditions, is admitting that there's distinct type of

1244
01:10:08,199 --> 01:10:14,239
stacees in God. There is a real multiplicity that is

1245
01:10:14,359 --> 01:10:21,680
not just conceptual or distinction or virtual, but that whether

1246
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,199
it's the Old Testament Theophanes, or whether it's the unique

1247
01:10:25,279 --> 01:10:29,439
doctrine of divine eminence and transcendence in the Jewish Hebrew revelation,

1248
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,079
God is not a sole, unitary being. In fact, the

1249
01:10:35,159 --> 01:10:39,079
notion that distinction necessarily entails composition of division, and that

1250
01:10:39,159 --> 01:10:43,680
God must be a generic unity is more characteristic of

1251
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,960
the Maimonides period of Judaism. So while I'm not saying

1252
01:10:49,039 --> 01:10:51,880
that there are no Jews prior to Mammonides who believed

1253
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:55,279
in a unitary perspective, the point of all of these books,

1254
01:10:55,359 --> 01:10:57,720
and of the opening statement in the Daniel Hikikichu debate

1255
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,319
my first debate with him, not the one with Sam

1256
01:10:59,359 --> 01:11:02,560
schmun The first debate was to simply demonstrate that modern

1257
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:07,439
Jewish scholarship is admitting that at the time of Christ,

1258
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:14,159
Judaism did not believe in a soul, generic, unitarian God.

1259
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:20,359
The Hebrew Revelation believed based on all of these they

1260
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:25,359
ofteny texts. This is what Sohmer goes through. For example,

1261
01:11:26,359 --> 01:11:30,159
Yahweh turned his face to Gideon in the Book of Judges.

1262
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,520
If God can't be in time and space, how the

1263
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,439
heck is he going to turn his face to Gideon?

1264
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,239
How the heck is Jacob going to wrestle with Yahweh?

1265
01:11:41,039 --> 01:11:43,920
Jesus and John two identifies himself as the one wrestling

1266
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:50,520
with Jacob. So the point is, I know that Muslims

1267
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,119
don't accept any of these texts, but Muslims often make

1268
01:11:53,159 --> 01:11:55,600
the argument that Jews are Unitarians, and they don't believe

1269
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,600
in Jesus, and if they, if Jesus was a Messiah,

1270
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,199
they would have accepted it. Well, first of all, it's

1271
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:04,720
fallacy because you can be hardhearted and not accept him. Secondly,

1272
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,960
it's not true that the Jews all rejected him, because

1273
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,079
the entire first foundation of the Church, in the first

1274
01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:13,359
ten books, ten chapters of Acts, is all thousands of Jews.

1275
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,720
All the apostles are Jews, so that's also not true. Secondly,

1276
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:23,600
second Temple Judaism was not monolithic in its Unitarian teaching.

1277
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,079
And this is not just somewhere that admits this. It's

1278
01:12:27,119 --> 01:12:30,199
all these other Jewish texts as well that admit this. Okay,

1279
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,399
you see how this is why this argument is so powerful.

1280
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:41,159
Alan Siegel's two Powers in Heaven, Boyarin's borderlines Schaeffer's two Books,

1281
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,960
or he's got another one, but two Gods in Heaven

1282
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,880
the Jewish Gospels, this one deals largely with Daniel seven.

1283
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:54,039
I think, yeah, Daniel seven, where the Messiah Son of

1284
01:12:54,119 --> 01:12:56,479
Man comes and presents himself before the Ancient of days.

1285
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:01,319
That's clearly two distinct persons. Now, to be clear, because

1286
01:13:01,359 --> 01:13:04,600
then we have a lot of slow boys the word

1287
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:06,520
god is not a proper noun. It can refer to

1288
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,880
different things. So when it says two gods are two powers,

1289
01:13:11,119 --> 01:13:14,600
it's just noting that Jews at the time of Christ,

1290
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,520
many of them acknowledge and recognized that the Old Testament

1291
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,359
revelation is not a strict Unitarian deity. It does not

1292
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,520
mean polytheism in the sense of many many gods. We

1293
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:31,239
do not believe that. We believe that there's only one God,

1294
01:13:31,319 --> 01:13:34,079
the Father, and that he has shared that divine nature

1295
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:36,359
with the Son and with the Spirit. So in terms

1296
01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:38,920
of the divine nature, in terms of the indwelling of

1297
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:42,479
the persons, there are not many gods. There is only

1298
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,199
one God. Hence the Nicene creet says we believe one God,

1299
01:13:46,239 --> 01:13:54,159
the Father Almighty. Now there's a lot of people in

1300
01:13:54,199 --> 01:13:59,279
the chat yippin and yappin. Are these people coming to debate? Guys,

1301
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,800
if there's any mods, if the people keep yapping and

1302
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:07,680
they won't come to bate, just to boot them. Next up,

1303
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,279
let's see, we've got some people have been waiting for

1304
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:13,560
a long time. So let's see he's been waiting for

1305
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:28,399
a long time. Thorn thorn, or they get on mute man.

1306
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:34,199
Speaker 14: Hi, can you hear me?

1307
01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:36,159
Speaker 2: Jay? Hi?

1308
01:14:36,239 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

1309
01:14:37,039 --> 01:14:39,520
Speaker 15: I recently discovered you and I've been waiting for this.

1310
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:45,039
I just have a question regarding predestination. I'm trying to

1311
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:49,880
piece it all together in terms of predestination.

1312
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:53,399
Speaker 5: God's knowledge, God's will.

1313
01:14:53,399 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 15: And how does it come into play in our free will?

1314
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 5: Right?

1315
01:14:58,079 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 1: So the Orthodox view Orthodox view I believe right. So

1316
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,680
Orthodox Christianity does not believe in Calvinism, does not believe

1317
01:15:04,079 --> 01:15:06,560
in a hard determinism. We believe that God is sovereign,

1318
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,279
He does know all things. But God has also created

1319
01:15:09,279 --> 01:15:11,560
a world where there are secondary causes. So you can

1320
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,359
read book one of John Damascus on this where he

1321
01:15:13,359 --> 01:15:15,560
talks about foreign knowledge. He talks about God creating a

1322
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,399
world where there are secondary causes. Many Muslims don't believe

1323
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:20,479
that they believe in a form of occasionalism because they

1324
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:24,640
think that their secondary causes this would detract from God's

1325
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,000
power and causality. But we do believe that creatures do

1326
01:15:28,119 --> 01:15:31,079
have the ability to have real causal powers, real causation

1327
01:15:31,279 --> 01:15:35,399
in the world. Now, in contrast to Calvinism, we look

1328
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:37,880
at text like Ephesians IE, and we note that that

1329
01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:40,600
was written to a visible community is not written to

1330
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,479
the invisible elect. If it's written to a visible community,

1331
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,880
then Paul is calling that whole group, quite literally, the predestined.

1332
01:15:47,239 --> 01:15:50,319
So this whole idea of Calvinism that ultimately these verses

1333
01:15:50,359 --> 01:15:52,760
are written only to the secret elect is just simply

1334
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,640
not true. And also it violates a lot of Christology.

1335
01:15:56,199 --> 01:15:58,880
So if Christ has two wills to natures and two energies,

1336
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,640
then the fullness of humanity requires that human nature have

1337
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,840
its own will and energy. So the fall and depravity

1338
01:16:06,199 --> 01:16:09,760
cannot mean that man lost its natural will and natural energy.

1339
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:13,479
So that's the Orthodoxy and Catholics, I'm excuse mean Calvinists

1340
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:19,760
typically begin their theology from the divine determination, the Divine decree,

1341
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:22,760
and then they do seteriology, and Trinity and thea and

1342
01:16:23,079 --> 01:16:26,159
Christology are all downstream from that. We think that's all

1343
01:16:26,239 --> 01:16:31,680
wrong headed. Trinity and Christology comes first, That then determines sateriology,

1344
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,359
and that's why the predestined is seeing through largely a

1345
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:40,359
chrystological lens armor.

1346
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:47,119
Speaker 5: Mm hm.

1347
01:16:49,319 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 13: So I wanted to speak to you about what you

1348
01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:53,279
said to Black Sufie.

1349
01:16:53,279 --> 01:16:55,560
Speaker 16: If you remember him, he was on a couple of

1350
01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:00,520
minutes ago he was talking about his neoplatonic view emanation

1351
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,279
from the one. So I heard you say that if

1352
01:17:03,319 --> 01:17:06,760
the first Intellect or the Muhammed and reality, if it's eternal,

1353
01:17:07,279 --> 01:17:08,880
that would make it a second God. But I just

1354
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,239
wanted to say, for Islamic philosophers and for Sufi's, we

1355
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:16,000
don't identify divinity with eternality or accidental necessity. For us,

1356
01:17:16,039 --> 01:17:19,960
divinity is only identified with essential necessity. And if that's

1357
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,840
the case, then the first Intellect being eternal or necessary

1358
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,159
in existence in terms of good logical necessity, that doesn't

1359
01:17:26,159 --> 01:17:26,720
make it divine.

1360
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:29,319
Speaker 13: It still makes it a creature. So we don't have

1361
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:30,199
multiple goods.

1362
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: So now, but what you're doing is you're taking things

1363
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:39,039
that are elements of the created order, like multiplicity, temporality,

1364
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:40,840
and you're giving it divine attributes.

1365
01:17:42,239 --> 01:17:46,600
Speaker 16: No, because, for example, necessity in the in the first

1366
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:50,239
cause in God is essential, right, but in the first

1367
01:17:50,319 --> 01:17:54,039
Intellect is accidental, So that you know that shared necessariy.

1368
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:55,680
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's get more basic than this.

1369
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:56,399
Speaker 5: How do you know that?

1370
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,560
Speaker 1: How do you know that it's accidental and versus necessary?

1371
01:18:01,079 --> 01:18:04,199
Speaker 13: Well, we have knowledge of the essence existence distinction, right, So.

1372
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 1: But where did you derive this knowledge? Is it from play?

1373
01:18:08,039 --> 01:18:08,159
Speaker 15: Now?

1374
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:11,279
Speaker 1: Remember he said Plato, Plato, Plato, But it's not from Plato.

1375
01:18:12,399 --> 01:18:14,079
Speaker 16: No, I don't believe it's from Plato. For me, I

1376
01:18:14,159 --> 01:18:15,399
get my views from Evansino.

1377
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:17,760
Speaker 1: Where did he get them?

1378
01:18:19,039 --> 01:18:21,399
Speaker 16: Well, we believe the essence existence distinction is the self

1379
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:22,439
evident truth because.

1380
01:18:22,279 --> 01:18:24,359
Speaker 1: You can Oh, how do you know that's self evident?

1381
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1382
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,279
Speaker 16: I know you're going to run the criterion problem, but

1383
01:18:27,319 --> 01:18:28,840
I don't accept that because.

1384
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:30,640
Speaker 1: Oh, you don't accept it, so your answers you don't

1385
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:32,039
accept it, Yeah.

1386
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 13: Because I just argue for epistemic finitism.

1387
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,600
Speaker 1: Okay, how does that resolve the fact? How does that

1388
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,000
resolve the criterion problem?

1389
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,560
Speaker 16: Because the criterion problem assumes that there is a criterion

1390
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,119
prior to the first principles of knowledge, but epistemic finitism.

1391
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:46,399
Speaker 13: Shows that they cannot be a criterion player to the

1392
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:46,920
first principle.

1393
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:48,159
Speaker 1: Okay, how do you know that there can How do

1394
01:18:48,199 --> 01:18:49,199
you know that there cannot be that?

1395
01:18:50,399 --> 01:18:52,640
Speaker 13: Because epistemic finishism is true, so.

1396
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,079
Speaker 1: It's self evident because this other thing which is self evident,

1397
01:18:55,199 --> 01:18:56,399
So you can just tack on all the things that

1398
01:18:56,399 --> 01:18:57,039
are self evident.

1399
01:18:57,119 --> 01:18:59,560
Speaker 13: Right, Well, eventually.

1400
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 2: Do you have a response to.

1401
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:04,520
Speaker 1: So No, So, now what that exactly? I just critiqued it.

1402
01:19:05,199 --> 01:19:06,680
Speaker 13: No, do you have a response to it?

1403
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 2: No?

1404
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: No, now you're changing it. Yeah. The response is that

1405
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:14,399
you just tacked on another self evident principle. You've missed.

1406
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:16,960
You missed the whole point of the critique. Yeah, you did.

1407
01:19:17,159 --> 01:19:19,159
You just said no, because this other thing is self evident,

1408
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,199
because that is what you said.

1409
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:22,520
Speaker 5: Can I speak?

1410
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 1: That is what you said, can I speak? Is that

1411
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,239
not what you said? This other thing is also self evident?

1412
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 14: No, ethostemic phanatism has arguments for it.

1413
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 1: And the argument was this other thing is self evident. No, No,

1414
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,920
that is what you argued, memorable, that is what you said.

1415
01:19:41,279 --> 01:19:44,039
Speaker 16: The argument formic phanatism is that if we have knowledge

1416
01:19:44,079 --> 01:19:46,279
of something, that knowledge can either be dependent.

1417
01:19:46,319 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 1: And I said, how do you know that that's the case?

1418
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:49,359
And you said, because of self evident.

1419
01:19:50,119 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 13: Well, we certainly do have knowledge of things, right.

1420
01:19:52,039 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: I said, how do you know that that second principle

1421
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,680
is the case? And you said, it's self evident that principle.

1422
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,359
The second the proposition you just say You said, we

1423
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:03,119
know it because of this, And I said, how do

1424
01:20:03,159 --> 01:20:05,079
you know that second thing you just said. And you said,

1425
01:20:05,079 --> 01:20:05,960
because it's self evident.

1426
01:20:07,199 --> 01:20:07,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, we know what.

1427
01:20:08,159 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so the second thing is also the self

1428
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:14,079
evident thing is true because this other self evident thing

1429
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:18,000
is true. You did You're a selfist. You just said that.

1430
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 14: Can I speak if we have knowledge of anything? Any

1431
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:22,359
given proposition?

1432
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,359
Speaker 1: Say X, right, how do you know that that's true?

1433
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:26,159
I know, I'm saying that proposition. How do you know

1434
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:27,079
that proposition is true?

1435
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 14: Well, for example, tortological statements?

1436
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:30,680
Speaker 8: Are those not true?

1437
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 1: Well, tautology doesn't tell me anything about reality and how

1438
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:35,319
it works in the world. So you can say it's true,

1439
01:20:35,359 --> 01:20:37,640
but you can say it's true by definition. But I'm saying,

1440
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:42,600
how do you know that something true by definition is applicable? Okay,

1441
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:43,279
how do you know.

1442
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:46,359
Speaker 13: Because of epistemic finitism.

1443
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,319
Speaker 1: Because it's self evident. Yeah, so it's a circle. Good

1444
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:50,560
circle circle.

1445
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:53,600
Speaker 14: Epistemic phinitism is not circular.

1446
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: You're telling me that, And I said, how do you

1447
01:20:56,119 --> 01:20:58,560
know that? Then you gave this other principle, and I said,

1448
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,359
how is that principle? How do you know that principle?

1449
01:21:00,359 --> 01:21:01,199
And you said it's self.

1450
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 13: Evident because I don't.

1451
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 1: My pestiology doesn't matter. I'm asking yours, forget my epistemology.

1452
01:21:07,079 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 13: Yours because you just pre suppose.

1453
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 7: No.

1454
01:21:10,319 --> 01:21:12,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, so here he goes. He deflects away from the

1455
01:21:12,119 --> 01:21:15,359
epistemic critigue to because you're a religion you think it's true. No,

1456
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:17,760
you didn't. You didn't answer. You said this other thing,

1457
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:20,520
which is self evident, falling into the very thing that

1458
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,319
it doesn't the very thing you think it answers, it

1459
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,520
doesn't answer, and then you deflect. Do you think your

1460
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:28,960
a position and self evident? I don't think my position

1461
01:21:29,079 --> 01:21:32,600
is self evident. I don't believe in self evidence. So

1462
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:41,439
get out of here with that selfistruy. You don't solve

1463
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:45,359
the criterion problem by saying that, well, I have this

1464
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,720
finitude position that relies on this thing. And then when

1465
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:51,239
I ask you, well, then how do you know that

1466
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:54,000
position is true from that thing? And then you say

1467
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:58,279
it's that thing is self evident. That's a circle. So

1468
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,079
it doesn't resolve. And there's a lot of these people

1469
01:22:01,119 --> 01:22:04,840
out there that think there was resolving the criterion problem

1470
01:22:06,279 --> 01:22:09,319
by saying this other thing, and they're missing the point

1471
01:22:09,319 --> 01:22:11,880
of the criterion problem. I mean, you might think that

1472
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:14,920
resolves it, but the thing that you appealed to. You

1473
01:22:15,079 --> 01:22:17,279
just said again is self evident. And by the way,

1474
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:21,279
beyond the criterion problem is the other problem I mentioned,

1475
01:22:21,319 --> 01:22:23,880
which is just as evitat devastating, which is that how

1476
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:25,840
do you know the things that are self evident versus

1477
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:30,840
the things that are not? That's a more prior principle. Okay,

1478
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:53,079
we lost that other dude, Marcel, I'm you, Joe, you

1479
01:22:53,279 --> 01:22:53,760
can hear me.

1480
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 17: All right, So I just kind of question this is

1481
01:22:58,000 --> 01:22:59,920
a question that I just won't like, you know, I

1482
01:23:00,039 --> 01:23:01,840
just want to give the benefit of the delt. You

1483
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,760
do know that the Sunnis do believe that the is uncreated, right, correct,

1484
01:23:07,039 --> 01:23:09,800
So I just want to know, like they believe that

1485
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,279
Jibriel or Gabriel is a created being. So I just

1486
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:16,479
want to know, like how the uncreated words is like

1487
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:20,239
able to be comprehended by a creative bee and give

1488
01:23:20,279 --> 01:23:20,960
to the mohamments.

1489
01:23:21,199 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've asked that question many times, Like

1490
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,520
how do you escape this question when you say, like

1491
01:23:28,199 --> 01:23:30,520
forty two and what is it? One to ten? Alla

1492
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:32,880
has nothing like the created order? Okay? Well, if all

1493
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,079
is nothing like it and Allah does not enter into

1494
01:23:35,159 --> 01:23:38,000
time and space as many of them believe, then how

1495
01:23:38,079 --> 01:23:41,640
does this message or these words of a law translate

1496
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:43,119
into the created form of the crime.

1497
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,840
Speaker 17: Yeah, so that's that's about argument, right, I can make

1498
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:48,319
that argument.

1499
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:48,520
Speaker 12: Right.

1500
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:50,159
Speaker 5: I just just want to get the benefit of the telt,

1501
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:51,840
That's what.

1502
01:23:53,279 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 17: I just want to get the benefit of the delt

1503
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,119
because I just you know, I just have this you know,

1504
01:23:57,319 --> 01:24:00,239
this argument. But again they say, like, you know, like

1505
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,439
you have this kind of ability to you know, you.

1506
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:05,119
Speaker 13: Know calmber Head the words the full line givee to

1507
01:24:05,239 --> 01:24:05,479
my heart.

1508
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:07,359
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, saying that he had the ability to do it,

1509
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:10,279
it doesn't tell us how it's possible given their metaphysical scheme.

1510
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:12,039
So that's an ad hoc rescue.

1511
01:24:13,239 --> 01:24:13,880
Speaker 5: They'll be all right.

1512
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 17: And there was almost one other thing that I won't

1513
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:18,600
want to ask you that you know that the I

1514
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,199
think he's also been even like something called like fatalism. Right,

1515
01:24:21,359 --> 01:24:23,359
everything is just like pre written by an angel.

1516
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:26,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. They believe in a hard determinism correct.

1517
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:29,720
Speaker 17: Yeah, So if that is the case, then why someone

1518
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,800
has to be a Muslim because one day suddenly I

1519
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:35,000
like him just like take over your mind, body and just.

1520
01:24:35,079 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 5: Like you know, make you do whatever you like.

1521
01:24:37,359 --> 01:24:39,520
Speaker 1: So I mean many of them are Yeah, many of

1522
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,199
them are occasionalists, which is even more extreme position that

1523
01:24:42,279 --> 01:24:45,279
at every second Allah is destroying and recreating the world

1524
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:49,039
because there cannot be secondary causes. There cannot be creaturely causes,

1525
01:24:49,119 --> 01:24:52,159
because for creatures to have causal power would detract from

1526
01:24:52,239 --> 01:24:54,279
all a sovereignty. That's how silly this position is. But

1527
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:57,520
and it's also just goes back to like pagan fatalism.

1528
01:24:57,920 --> 01:24:59,920
Now keep in mind, like what we're talking about is

1529
01:25:00,159 --> 01:25:04,319
not hidden, it's not new. They've been critiquing each other

1530
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,960
on these issues, where for example, here critique of the

1531
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:11,399
Palmerian creed. This whole book is about how all the

1532
01:25:11,479 --> 01:25:15,680
Salafi argumentation about parts and attribute shes and all this

1533
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:20,760
stuff hands that it's anthropomorphic heresy. They are making an

1534
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:25,279
analogy between God and Allah in the created order, and

1535
01:25:25,399 --> 01:25:28,079
this whole book is about in what degree you can

1536
01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:31,239
and can't do that, and how it's shirk. So, in

1537
01:25:31,359 --> 01:25:34,119
other words, it been to me has a doctrine of concurrence.

1538
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,720
Right where Allah has a hand. We don't know the

1539
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:40,800
modality of a hand, but it's a real hand in

1540
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,520
some way, but it's nothing like the created hand of

1541
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,760
the world that the people have in the world. So

1542
01:25:48,279 --> 01:25:51,199
how is that? I mean, it's silly, right. All this

1543
01:25:51,239 --> 01:25:54,199
stuff is so silly, but it's given this air of, like,

1544
01:25:54,399 --> 01:25:57,039
you know, sophistication.

1545
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 13: Try again, So going just taking me off this time

1546
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:10,039
because I disagree with you.

1547
01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:13,199
Speaker 1: No, I I removed you because you're not answering the question.

1548
01:26:13,239 --> 01:26:14,279
You're just talking to circles.

1549
01:26:15,399 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 13: Okay, but can I just say something at this time?

1550
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:19,720
Speaker 14: Justification isn't necessary because I'm.

1551
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:20,319
Speaker 13: Just giving an account.

1552
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:22,119
Speaker 1: How do you know what you're saying all this?

1553
01:26:22,399 --> 01:26:25,199
Speaker 13: Okay, I'm giving an account. I don't need to justify it.

1554
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:28,560
Speaker 1: So you don't have to justify your account. That's why

1555
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,359
you're a sophist. So if you can you understand how

1556
01:26:31,399 --> 01:26:33,560
silly this is. If you can do that, I can

1557
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:37,399
do that. This is so silly. I can give an account.

1558
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:39,000
I don't have to justify it. You do have to

1559
01:26:39,159 --> 01:26:41,399
justify it because we're arguing in pistemology. Get out here

1560
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:43,520
with all the sophistry. Get on my nerves. It's crazy

1561
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:46,760
to do my back out. If you don't have to

1562
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,199
justify your account, I don't have to justify an account.

1563
01:26:49,199 --> 01:26:55,159
You see how silly this is? Packy John? So you

1564
01:26:55,319 --> 01:26:58,520
understand that they missed the whole point of the criterion problem,

1565
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,640
and they come back and say that, Well, the solution

1566
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:03,920
to the criterion problem is I give an account. I

1567
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:05,479
tell a story that I don't have to give a

1568
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:06,199
justification for.

1569
01:27:08,079 --> 01:27:10,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, what's up, Jake, yep? Yeah.

1570
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,039
Speaker 18: I wanted to ask you some questions, some problems that

1571
01:27:13,119 --> 01:27:14,479
I have with Christiana that I'm.

1572
01:27:14,359 --> 01:27:14,960
Speaker 8: Looking into it.

1573
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 18: So I wanted to ask you about like Christology, So

1574
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:24,279
the human nature and the divine nature, how do you

1575
01:27:24,319 --> 01:27:27,199
even reconcile those? Like, for example, the divine nature is

1576
01:27:27,359 --> 01:27:30,680
eternal and then the human nature is created, So how

1577
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:35,039
do you reconcile Jesus being eternal and then also created

1578
01:27:35,079 --> 01:27:35,800
at the same.

1579
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,720
Speaker 1: Time because of two natures? So he's a divine person

1580
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,680
who becomes incarnate. Is not a divine nature that becomes incarnated.

1581
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:45,399
It's a divine person with a divine nature who steps

1582
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:47,359
into time and space. How do we know that's possible

1583
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:49,399
because he'd already been doing it for all of the

1584
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,159
Old Testaments, stepping into time and space. So we believe

1585
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:54,359
it not on the basis the first of all of metaphysics,

1586
01:27:54,399 --> 01:27:56,119
but on the basis of the divine revelation that it

1587
01:27:56,199 --> 01:28:00,319
tells us that the second person, Yahweh's son has stepped

1588
01:28:00,319 --> 01:28:03,079
into time and space many many times because he's not

1589
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:05,920
bound by the logic and the principles of the created order.

1590
01:28:06,239 --> 01:28:09,880
God created the created order, He created logic. Logic is

1591
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:12,079
a created thing in our view, it's not something that

1592
01:28:12,199 --> 01:28:14,840
binds God. God is the ground of logic, he is

1593
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:20,000
not submitting to and the slave of logic. Logic is

1594
01:28:20,079 --> 01:28:23,479
a created principle based on principles in the divine mind,

1595
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:27,199
and He transcends it. So there's nothing impossible or out

1596
01:28:27,279 --> 01:28:31,079
of hand for God to choose not to actualize every

1597
01:28:31,079 --> 01:28:33,560
one of his properties or powers and to step into

1598
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,479
time and space, just like the Muslims or the Jews

1599
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:39,800
believe that God was in time and space in various

1600
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,560
ways and various capacities, unless they're the Muslims who reject

1601
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:45,079
this and think that God is only transcendent, which if

1602
01:28:45,119 --> 01:28:46,800
He's only transcendent, then you have the problem with the

1603
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:49,680
previous caller that how do we know what Allah's uncreated

1604
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,000
Kuran is telling us? Because how could there be any

1605
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,359
similarity between the uncreated Koran and the created Korans and

1606
01:28:54,399 --> 01:28:58,079
time and space so this problem, this bridge is, this gap,

1607
01:28:58,239 --> 01:29:01,520
is never bridged in that position if you stress and

1608
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:06,039
only believe in transcendence. The Orthodox view following Hebrew Revelation