1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,399
Speaker 1: The secret is, you know, we have rhetoric, we have politics,

2
00:00:03,439 --> 00:00:07,280
we have economy, mathematics, we have all these ways of

3
00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:10,279
knowing and of seeing, and we have science. But art

4
00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,640
is actually underneath it all. There's the making of space,

5
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,839
that is architecture. There's the making of the story and

6
00:00:16,879 --> 00:00:20,160
the making of the image, and those three they are

7
00:00:20,199 --> 00:00:25,000
the secret binding for everything else. Everything else exists within

8
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,800
that world. And it's like almost like an esoteric secret.

9
00:00:27,839 --> 00:00:30,800
That is that if you can control the story, not control,

10
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,759
if you can tell the story, then you're actually changing

11
00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:39,320
the way people see and think about the world before

12
00:00:39,439 --> 00:00:55,000
they have any opinion. This is Jonathan Pegel, Welcome to

13
00:00:55,079 --> 00:01:07,959
the symbolic World. About a month and a half ago,

14
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,599
I went to Ralston College where we had a wonderful

15
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,599
roundtable discussion about meaning about art, about the future of culture.

16
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,159
And in that time I had an amazing discussion with

17
00:01:20,239 --> 00:01:23,959
Greg Hurwitz. As you know, Greg Hurwitz is a best

18
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,000
selling author, but he's also become a friend of mine

19
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,719
and we've started to collaborate on some interesting projects. So

20
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,040
in this discussion, we talk about what it means to

21
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,159
be an artist in our different spheres, what it means

22
00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:38,799
to work together, and also giving advice to young people

23
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,480
who are trying to figure out what they want to

24
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,680
do now. And I also wanted to tell people that

25
00:01:44,879 --> 00:01:48,599
Ralson College is such an amazing place if you are

26
00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:51,400
young and you are kind of trying to figure out

27
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,439
what to do. They offer some amazing opportunities. They also

28
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,840
offer great scholarships. You can go there for a year,

29
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,159
You can learn Greek in ways that is just astounding,

30
00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:07,040
and you can also get a really powerful general culture

31
00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:10,479
with some of the most amazing professors. And so I

32
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,520
would suggest that you look into it. In theory, the

33
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,919
date is already passed to sign up for Ralston, but

34
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,159
they told me that for very high quality people they

35
00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:25,319
would be willing to reconsider. And so now's the time

36
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,319
to take a chance if you're interested in preserving our

37
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,360
culture and a civilization. And so in the meantime, please

38
00:02:33,439 --> 00:02:35,639
enjoy this conversation with Greg Hurwitz.

39
00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:37,759
Speaker 2: Welcome everybody.

40
00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:43,479
Speaker 3: This is a conversation with Jonathan Pajo and Greg Hurwitz,

41
00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:45,479
who are very excited to have here with us at

42
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,879
Ralston College. We have been holding career and life conversations

43
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,719
for the last couple of terms here at Ralston in

44
00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:55,919
the effort to connect students with opportunities that they might

45
00:02:56,479 --> 00:03:00,759
be interested in pursuing post studying at Ralston. The humanities

46
00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,840
education is ideally preparation for a beautiful life story, a

47
00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:10,800
well lived life, and in many directions that can take us.

48
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,520
We have had many experts and guests who are here

49
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,560
to tell us what they've done with their humanistic pursuits.

50
00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:22,439
So with that, I would love to introduce President doctor

51
00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:24,879
Stephen Blackwood to introduce us to our guests.

52
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,360
Speaker 4: So now it's such a great pleasure to be able

53
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,199
to participate in these seminars, which I think is Lidia

54
00:03:33,319 --> 00:03:35,360
just said. So well, you know, there's a lot of

55
00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:39,800
questions that people who study the liberal arts and humanities

56
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,919
often get cynical or skeptical, or at least somewhat eight

57
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,000
orant or unknowing ones that lead something like what are

58
00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:49,080
you going to do with that? And it's often not

59
00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:53,520
a mean spirited question, because after all, we'll find a

60
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,639
way through life and of course put a roof over

61
00:03:56,639 --> 00:03:59,439
our heads and all that, all that kind of necessary stuff.

62
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,280
But at the end of the day, I think we

63
00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:06,199
can argue very powerfully that there's actually nothing more useful

64
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,639
and that which enables you to live the one life

65
00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:12,879
you have in a way that you can make it

66
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,720
count that to you, it is meaningful. And so these

67
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,160
career life conversations on Fridays, which are to those listening

68
00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,959
who may follow us online entirely offsome to ustudent, are

69
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:29,680
really part of helping us think about how we navigate life.

70
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,680
You know, in the classroom we're often reading ariosol or Dante,

71
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,759
we're parsing our Greek and all that kind of stuff,

72
00:04:35,759 --> 00:04:38,519
and all those things. Of course, we're down and resound

73
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,279
in all kinds of ways in our lives, but in

74
00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:44,120
the classroom we're not necessarily asking the question about, well,

75
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,519
how do I get a job, or how do I

76
00:04:45,519 --> 00:04:47,439
present myself the world? Or how do I think about

77
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,040
the relationships in the healthiest, most positive and important way,

78
00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:53,199
and how do I navigate my way through questions of

79
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,680
religion and all those kinds of things. And so these

80
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,519
career life conversations are meant to be an opportunity to

81
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,079
kind of book I would open and ask anything that's

82
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,199
you as a human being at this point in time.

83
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,879
The questions that are you're asking that you can ask those,

84
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,319
And it really is for me just an enormous pleasure

85
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,079
to have Greg Herwitz and Jonathan Pagot here. They are

86
00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:22,240
friends of the college. They've both been here multiple times before.

87
00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:25,439
They both addressed our students on to great acclaim and

88
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,600
much adored in the past a number of times. They're

89
00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:33,120
also friends of each other. And one of the reasons

90
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,000
I was it may I'll be the most obvious thing

91
00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:40,839
to bring an acclaimed a writer and thriller novelist and

92
00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:43,439
comic book writer and screenwriter and all things. Greg has

93
00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:47,319
been together with this champion of the world of symbolism

94
00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:51,639
and theology. And yet at the same time they are

95
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,600
in such powerful ways as I think their friendship attempts

96
00:05:56,319 --> 00:06:00,879
thinking about the same or similar questions and the stakes thereof.

97
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,120
So with that said, I'm just going to what I

98
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,519
thought would be the most fun, would just be to

99
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,839
let the two of them engage in a conversation with

100
00:06:11,959 --> 00:06:13,800
all of you. Of course, we have formally a title

101
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,959
of this why we tell Stories? I think that is

102
00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,560
the formal title of this session that we don't need

103
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,040
to say at confined to that already limitless question. We

104
00:06:22,079 --> 00:06:24,759
can go in any other directions, but you should feel

105
00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:27,519
free at any moment to jump in with the question

106
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,560
that you'd most like to ask one or the other

107
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:30,439
of both of these.

108
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 2: Let's do it.

109
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,720
Speaker 1: How do we start? I'm thinking one of the things

110
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,160
we could talk about, and it's gonna be a question

111
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,759
even to find out is I have to agree with

112
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,879
the ways even presented it in some ways. My friendship

113
00:06:50,879 --> 00:06:53,160
with Greg is a very surprising thing that's happened in

114
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,879
the past few years. It's so surprising that my wife

115
00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,040
at the beginning was like, what is this guy like? You?

116
00:06:59,199 --> 00:06:59,319
Speaker 5: Like?

117
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,519
Speaker 1: What is it like? It doesn't make sense that this

118
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,199
Hollywood you know, kind of a successful writer. Why did

119
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,439
he want to be friends with you? It doesn't make

120
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:07,879
any sense. He's like he must be some kind of

121
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,279
CIA agent or something like, yeah, I do something. And

122
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,120
so maybe we could ask the question I would ask

123
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,399
is why do we like each other? Like? What is

124
00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:23,439
it about? I can start because you go first, and

125
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,959
so I think that you know at first. For me, Greg,

126
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,439
he was involved in a lot of things that I

127
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,879
was really interested as a teenager, Like when I was young,

128
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,040
he was writing comics. He was kind of in that world,

129
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,639
the world that I had kind of set aside for

130
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,519
a long time, but that he was deeply involved, and

131
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,480
I was so curious to find out about this guy,

132
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,439
like he's writing Batman like that was like my childhood hero.

133
00:07:45,959 --> 00:07:49,319
That's how it started. But then I quickly realized that

134
00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:53,759
he had like a natural insight about exactly about storytelling.

135
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,199
And because of that kind of natural insight about human nature,

136
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,800
that that really, you know, woke me. Yeah, so you

137
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,040
know he has you know, you hear him talking about

138
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,720
he even he perceives you. Guys don't know, but he's

139
00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:08,120
watching all of you. He can kind of perceive things

140
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,759
in very subtle ways, and that insight to me was

141
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,360
really refreshing and for me at least, it started there

142
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,279
and then just spending time together at some point realizing

143
00:08:17,319 --> 00:08:20,800
that we're in such different camps, but for some reason,

144
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,439
there are these places where it bridges. Some of it

145
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,279
is storytelling, some of some of it I think is

146
00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:29,560
just a kind of intuition. And so that's my that

147
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:30,920
would be the beginning of that. I don't know what

148
00:08:30,959 --> 00:08:32,000
your insight on that is.

149
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,840
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, that's very kind. I mean, it's a

150
00:08:34,879 --> 00:08:37,120
little bit awkward now for me to confess that actually

151
00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:40,480
ms CIA agent and my interest in you is being

152
00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:42,159
part of the Christian nationalist movie.

153
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 6: There you go.

154
00:08:46,039 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: Look for me.

155
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,279
Speaker 7: I think, hello, friends, this is Richard Rowland, and I

156
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,120
am inviting you to join me for my new symbolic

157
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,399
world course, Tolkien and Universal History. And this course we're

158
00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:01,360
going to go over the deep mythological and universal history

159
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000
roots of Tolkien's Legendarium and see how Tolkien sort of

160
00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:11,080
shows us a blueprint for reclaiming a legendary mythical Christian

161
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,440
framework for storytelling, and in fact, we're going to even

162
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,039
do some storytelling of our own. This is a five

163
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,240
week course. It starts on March the third. We had

164
00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:22,039
to postpone it a week, which means there's a little

165
00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:24,960
more time for you to sign up, and I hope

166
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:25,600
to see you there.

167
00:09:29,039 --> 00:09:33,320
Speaker 2: I'm very much governed by the instinct for what is

168
00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:38,960
maximumly curious and shiny and engaging for me. So everything

169
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,960
I did, like undergraduate, I studied English and psychology, like

170
00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,039
I only went into arenas that were maximumly compelling. And

171
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,720
the same thing for me is true for friendships. And

172
00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:53,159
friendships are a kind of attraction. And I think that

173
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,399
the first level that I connected with you is you're

174
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,440
a true artist. And even if your art is something

175
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,440
that in so way seems on an opposite pole of

176
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,679
what I do, like you're doing, like these beautiful carvings

177
00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,200
that are that the symbology is foremost, and they're iconic

178
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,159
and archetypal and deeply resonant from symbol down. And you know,

179
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,480
when I'm writing, I'm writing everything has to grow up

180
00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:19,840
from specifics. I can't write a novel that's good if

181
00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:21,840
I think I'm writing a novel about the triumph of

182
00:10:21,879 --> 00:10:24,799
the human spirit. Everything I think about is what's a

183
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,759
line of dialogue? What's an action scene? What's a way

184
00:10:27,799 --> 00:10:31,879
that some little detail is illuminating about character? Is there

185
00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:36,159
somebody on the subway across from my character who you know,

186
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,600
has a worn pair of black loafers filled in with

187
00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,000
magic marker because they can't afford to buy new shoes,

188
00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:43,440
like what are It's all comes from the specifics and

189
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,759
the details. And I'm much more geared towards words, and

190
00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:50,440
you're obviously geared. You're you're immensely and mensely visual. And

191
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,360
so the first thing was in my conversations with you,

192
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:54,840
it was just evident that there was nothing about you

193
00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:04,320
that was dogmatic or propagandistic or rigidly ossified, ideological. You're

194
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,159
sort of a living, breathing embodiment of what it is

195
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,399
to be an artist, and that is suffused with your

196
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,480
work and your belief system. And I didn't really have Orthodoxy.

197
00:11:14,639 --> 00:11:18,639
I'm from a very let's just say, a much more liberal,

198
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,480
secular Jewish background. Initially my parents sent me to Jesuit

199
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,679
high school. So I have a lot of affinity for Catholics.

200
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,120
I have a lot of friends who are Evangelicals, but

201
00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:30,759
I didn't know a lot about the Orthodox Church, and

202
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,399
so I was captivated by you. Like meeting you is

203
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,440
sort of like, you know, it's like winning the lottery

204
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,159
the first time you buy a ticket in terms of

205
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,440
a point of ingress for that field, because there's so

206
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,279
much in it that is so it's such a muscular

207
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,159
belief system, and there's so much darkness that's incorporated, and

208
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,840
there's so much nuance and there's so much texture. I

209
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,039
think the way that that informs your thinking and your

210
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,600
grounding and then your art and the reasons why you

211
00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:59,919
do things is very, very solid. And I think that

212
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,600
solidity is something is something that you know, we talk

213
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,919
all the time and overuse the word fractal but it's true,

214
00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:10,919
like you have, your artistic integrity is aligned by dint

215
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,559
of what you do with your belief and your faith

216
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,960
and your character. And in a lot of ways, you know,

217
00:12:17,039 --> 00:12:20,399
if if all people are hypocritical in certain regards, because

218
00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,399
we're humans, you have the least aspect of that in

219
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,720
your persona and your dealings. And so you know, I

220
00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:29,200
always say so Jordan Peterson, I go back quite a

221
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,600
long way. Who's my thesis advisor when I was an undergraduate,

222
00:12:32,639 --> 00:12:34,879
So I've known him a very long time. But I've

223
00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:37,919
said to him before, I say, Pago is a holy person.

224
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,440
It's so annoying, you know, and when there's arguments or disputes,

225
00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:47,120
you there's just a real solidity, and I think in

226
00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:50,039
a lot of ways, I'm more exploratory, and you're very

227
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,879
grounded in what you think and everything's really bolted down

228
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,480
to the earth. And so you know, we've been working

229
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,320
on a project together recently, and it's been that's been

230
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,679
captivating to work on a narrative project because it's sort

231
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,879
of like meeting in the middle from these two sides.

232
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what's so fascinating too, is

233
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,600
that so Greg and I I think it was last year,

234
00:13:08,759 --> 00:13:11,080
and I remember how the idea started. We kind of

235
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,519
had this idea that we could because that I think,

236
00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:17,399
I really believe that nobody has been able to create

237
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,879
a narrative version of Genesis. Like no one has ever

238
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,840
been able to do it. It's always extremely cringey and

239
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,720
you know, tacky, and you see to naked people in

240
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,279
the garden and you're just like, what is this? This

241
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,679
is not possible. And so we kind of gave ourselves

242
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,200
this challenge to dramatize Genesis, and we started just exchanging

243
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:36,960
and working together, and I was really surprised. I was

244
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,559
curious to see how that would go. But it's as

245
00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,720
if it just went as well as you could imagine,

246
00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:46,919
Like everything just kind of flow together, and we when

247
00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:49,279
we finally were sitting in the same room, everything was

248
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,639
just coming together in ways that was just was astounding,

249
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,799
And I think we cracked it, like I think we actually,

250
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,559
I think we actually were able to do it to

251
00:13:57,639 --> 00:14:00,159
tell the story of the Fall and of creation and

252
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,840
of all of this in a way that is actually

253
00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:04,559
narratively compelling. And I think it has to do. It

254
00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,399
does have to do in some ways like in that

255
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,120
because I would the way that Greg writes. He would

256
00:14:10,159 --> 00:14:12,240
be like he has this thing does with his hands.

257
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,720
He's like reaching, He's like grasping. Yeah, you do this

258
00:14:14,759 --> 00:14:17,720
thing like You're like you're like grasping, You're like and

259
00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:20,559
then and then you have this like image You're like

260
00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:22,759
like a finger with paint. Do you remember that. He's

261
00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:25,080
like you see this image and it's like where is

262
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:26,519
this coming from? Like what is this? And then he

263
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,159
kind of he kind of scratching at it and then

264
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,960
when it comes together, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes

265
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,240
total sense. But it's like you're really coming at it

266
00:14:34,279 --> 00:14:36,879
from the ground up in that sense, like I it's

267
00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:40,120
true that I'm more top down. I see the structure

268
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,279
and like this is how it should be. But that

269
00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:44,679
is also can be kind of cold right into in

270
00:14:44,759 --> 00:14:48,039
terms of you wanted to have something that's narratively compelling,

271
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,600
and you have like this kind of almost like really

272
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,919
think you're imagining you know, like dirt and and the

273
00:14:55,039 --> 00:14:57,200
you know, the leaves hitting their legs and you have

274
00:14:57,279 --> 00:14:59,919
this kind of really ground up approach.

275
00:15:00,519 --> 00:15:02,159
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, part of what we want to

276
00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:06,639
do is really show this tell the story and way

277
00:15:06,679 --> 00:15:09,399
that's humanizing, tell the story in a way that's psychological. So,

278
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,639
what's it really like if you've never felt pain the

279
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:12,679
first time you feel pain?

280
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:13,159
Speaker 3: Like?

281
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,799
Speaker 2: How angry is Adam at Eve given his sort of

282
00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:19,840
cringey blame of her for being the cause of his

283
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,399
downfall the first night that they're alone. What happens the

284
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:25,840
first time she offers him an apple? In the fallen world?

285
00:15:25,879 --> 00:15:27,440
What happens the first time you see your own blood

286
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,840
if you've never seen blood? And how does that insurmountable trauma?

287
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,879
It's like one of the greatest traumas that's imaginable?

288
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:35,759
Speaker 5: Right?

289
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 2: How do you tell that as a story of intergenerational

290
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:40,320
trauma that gets passed on to canaan Abel?

291
00:15:40,519 --> 00:15:40,679
Speaker 1: Right?

292
00:15:40,759 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 2: And then Seth And then there's this there's a flow

293
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,919
for how this moves that. If it's in the psychological,

294
00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:49,559
then we feel like we're on narrative pacing and narrative footing.

295
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,919
And I think part of this is when I talked

296
00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:54,799
about you being an artist is sort of one of

297
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,879
the first things that I was drawn to. This kind

298
00:15:58,919 --> 00:16:03,559
of collaboration. Wouldn't if there was ideology or dogma or

299
00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:06,799
ego where best idea doesn't win, right, or all those things.

300
00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:09,360
Or if you're things are really graspy. I've had a

301
00:16:09,399 --> 00:16:12,159
couple of movies made and some TV, and one of

302
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,399
the things that you realize is that production, when you

303
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,120
get to production or creative collaboration, it's like it's like

304
00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,519
a marriage. It's either getting better or worse. It's never stable.

305
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,639
And if you have the right tempo and you set

306
00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:27,440
the right value structure, which is the best idea, wins

307
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,320
and the project is elevated above individual needs or ego,

308
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,399
right like the actors who always pull you aside like

309
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,240
I just think I need some more lines here, and

310
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,279
like you're servicing their ego all the time. If you

311
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,559
get those alignments or correct what happens is it can

312
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,240
elevate exponentially. Everything feels like a double trampoline bounce of

313
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,039
creative exaltation. And when it goes wrong, you know, and

314
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,879
you're the screenwriter, then all of a sudden, you feel

315
00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:53,000
like you're the drunk asshole behind a bar at four

316
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,320
in the morning with like a broken bottle, fending people

317
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,600
off to protect your script. It's like going to shit

318
00:16:58,159 --> 00:17:01,519
and there's no it's going one way or the other.

319
00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:03,879
And I feel like there was this alignment we had

320
00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:06,480
where there's not a lot of jousting and other stuff.

321
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,720
That's the noise, right, So I have these images and

322
00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:11,240
there's sometimes where Jonathan would be like, no, that doesn't

323
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,599
work at all, Like that's completely sacrilegious and we'll fend

324
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:15,599
everyone in the Orthodox Church. I'm like, okay, sorry, we'll

325
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,039
just leave that up. But you know, but there's a

326
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,119
there's a working within it where you want to grab

327
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,559
the thing and have it kind of shiney, and so

328
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,839
that interplay where there's not a fence, there's only sort

329
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,880
of artistic integrity being brought to this. It's that's what

330
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,720
you're sort of looking for. And in a way, it's

331
00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:37,160
a microcosm of what of what you want in your lives.

332
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,039
Is you pursue whatever fields you pursue, whatever relationships you pursue,

333
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:44,079
whatever careers you pursue. You want to be pursuing the

334
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,920
thing that sets you most fully in your in your discipline,

335
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,279
in your art, in your craft, and those crafts have

336
00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:54,920
different sets of ethics that have to hold above all else.

337
00:17:56,599 --> 00:17:58,039
You know. One of the things we've seen is this

338
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,839
subversion to individual to the political, where it's like I'm

339
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,160
not a church, I'm really pro politics. I'm not a school.

340
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,640
I'm really ideological, right, I'm not a writer who entertains

341
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,720
I need to create propaganda. And you have to adhere

342
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,319
to the ethic of the of the individual crafts that

343
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,359
you're doing. And that's a meeting place, and so that's

344
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,880
something that you learn and uphold and then that way

345
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,480
and form. Anything that you dig into all the way

346
00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,880
contains the whole secret of the universe, like anything that

347
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,000
you apply to You can be a jeweler, you could

348
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:35,519
be a veterinarian, you can be a computer scientist, you

349
00:18:35,519 --> 00:18:38,079
can be an artist, you can be a teacher. If

350
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,200
you give your full devoted focus to something and you

351
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,200
go all the way down and you watch what its

352
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,799
reach is, it contains the same information, right. And then

353
00:18:46,839 --> 00:18:49,720
I think part of the aim is do you embody

354
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,279
or go close towards the top of one dominant hierarchy

355
00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:55,440
of achievement and meaning, right, And then if you get another,

356
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,519
all of a sudden, you start to have almost like

357
00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:01,480
a pattern recognition that seems preternatural. You can anticipate things

358
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,319
it had, and then you can add more things along

359
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,839
the way. And I think that if our meeting places

360
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,240
for a place that's artistically pure. It also means you're

361
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,519
very rounded and lined out and scored away in your

362
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,519
overall belief system and your understanding of your place in

363
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:20,160
the world, and so we can create together then because

364
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,519
you're not bringing in a bunch of friction and static

365
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:24,599
from other things that you have a need to feed.

366
00:19:24,839 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. I think you've brought a

367
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,119
lot of interesting insights. You know. One of the things

368
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,640
that I realized while you were speaking is when you're

369
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,319
doing the when you're doing the right thing, there always

370
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,559
has to be the right balance of difficult and easy,

371
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:43,400
in the sense that when something is so can I

372
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,599
say this like when something I imagine this is something

373
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,039
you're going through because zony Greek is obviously not easy,

374
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,559
but there's a sense in which you're putting in effort.

375
00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:53,559
But there's also a flow, like a natural flow that

376
00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,480
you fall into and it carries you through, and what

377
00:19:56,599 --> 00:19:59,119
you end up with is like joy. You end up

378
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,359
with joy and more ennery and more possibility. And I

379
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,400
think that that a lot of that has to do

380
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,720
with disposition. Like what you're saying, basically, you just have

381
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:10,279
to be disposed in the right way and you have

382
00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,400
to be attentive to what's happening. And so, you know,

383
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,440
I think that that's also one of the thing that was

384
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,000
happening with us and some wee are coming from two

385
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,839
completely different, completely different worlds, but we are attentive to

386
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,279
the other person, attentive to what's happening, kind of open to,

387
00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:28,519
like you said, not holding on to ego, not trying

388
00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:31,559
to not trying to to make sure that this one

389
00:20:31,599 --> 00:20:34,559
thing fits in. And then we work through it and

390
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:37,920
it's like it's almost like you're just going downstream, almost right.

391
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,119
It's just it's just kind of carrying you through. And

392
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,039
I think that all the things that I've been involved

393
00:20:43,039 --> 00:20:45,839
in that have been successful have have been like that,

394
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:49,720
where it's it's hard, like you might maybe you're poor,

395
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,200
maybe you still struggle, you're trying to make things fit together,

396
00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:56,000
but there's something that's like that's just carrying you and

397
00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:58,400
it's and it has and it produces more joy at

398
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,640
the end. It's even though even though it's it's difficult.

399
00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:05,799
Speaker 2: You know, I don't we talked about this a little

400
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:08,920
bit last night. I don't know any writers who are successful,

401
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,160
whether it's novelist or screenwriters where the writing isn't a compulsion.

402
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,079
It's almost like it's a good illness, right, And part

403
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,480
of what you're striving for in your varied endeavors is

404
00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:24,640
to figure out the thing that you're compelled to do,

405
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,440
to figure out the thing that and you get. And

406
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,319
it doesn't mean that it's always this way and it's

407
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,720
magical and the heavens open up and the muse is,

408
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,680
you know, bleeding on a trumpet. But for the most part,

409
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:37,279
when you're doing what you're meant to do, you want

410
00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:40,680
to feel compelled. And when I'm writing, well, it's harder

411
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,720
for me to not write than to write. And whatever

412
00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:45,960
that thing is for you, that's the damon that you

413
00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:48,359
want to pursue and follow. You want to follow a

414
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,160
source of a compulsion that you have to do something

415
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,680
and that you have to know more about it and

416
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,039
you have to get better at it. And that's true

417
00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:55,759
in any field.

418
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. The craftsman. You know, there's

419
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,119
a saying that you can't pull the craftsman away from

420
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,480
his craft. That it's actually difficult, you know, because the

421
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,240
person like when I'm I'm not carving a lot of

422
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,240
icons now, but when I was carving icons, you know,

423
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,359
it's like, you know, it's five o'clock and I need

424
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,240
to go back. I need to go back to my family.

425
00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:20,640
But just just another ten, just another, just another and

426
00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:22,480
you're just you're just like, you know, this is opening up,

427
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:25,359
and this is doing that, and and like that feeling

428
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,400
is is Obviously you do have to stop and go,

429
00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,279
you know, and do the other things, but that sense

430
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:32,920
of like, no, you're just being carried is really important.

431
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: My wife and daughter have something. When I say it'll

432
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,359
be ten minutes, they'll go your ten minutes or my

433
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:45,559
ten minutes. Right with work. Yeah, it's it's really interesting

434
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,960
as you're as you're trying to kind of figure out

435
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,240
your way to that you can see which things shine

436
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,880
and which thing's call to you. I mean, the one

437
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,759
of the things that I think is very important and

438
00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:00,759
it's it's it's highly relevant to Ralston. None of you

439
00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,119
are getting degrees, like you'd all be way better off

440
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,039
going to community college and getting a degree in graphic

441
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,400
design if you're worried about employment right or immediate easy

442
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,519
employment after a degree. But one of the things that

443
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,000
you're doing is you're not being trained for that. You're

444
00:23:16,039 --> 00:23:20,160
being trained for being artists. And entrepreneurs and philosophers and

445
00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:28,559
leaders and soldiers and you know, innovators. And there's such

446
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:30,880
a temptation. When I go on book tour, I have

447
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,319
a lot of people come up to me and say, yeah,

448
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:34,279
I really want to be a novelist. You know, I

449
00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:36,720
want to be a novelist. But you know who could

450
00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:38,640
do that with money? I had to make a living, right,

451
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,759
So I've been an accountant for you know, thirty years.

452
00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:43,599
But I'm going to retire and then, you know, then

453
00:23:43,599 --> 00:23:45,119
I'm going to really do it because I had a family.

454
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,759
And how are you supposed to do it? And I

455
00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:50,359
always think, like you, how do you exist in the

456
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,400
world that you have a notion that all of your

457
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,160
enthusiasm and all of the youthful drive that you have

458
00:23:56,319 --> 00:23:59,079
early you can just pause that and do something else

459
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,200
for thirty years and then just pick it up again

460
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,759
as if you haven't been altered. And so part of

461
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:06,680
what's happening with you. And there's an environment around Ralston

462
00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:10,839
that is that is truly I think magical. There's an

463
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,880
environment here, there's a quality of people here. We were

464
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,960
sitting down and I said to Jonathan, I said, everyone

465
00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:19,799
the Ralston student is so incredibly varied, but there's a

466
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:22,039
sort of look still right for this is the third

467
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,799
class that I've met that or you know, second that

468
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,759
you just see there's like an energy around it. And

469
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,680
part of it is you have to be the keeper

470
00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:31,920
of that, you know. I still remember the guy in

471
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,599
a bar my senior year, The Bow and Arrow was

472
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,559
like the local kind of shitty bar at my college,

473
00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:38,720
and he was back for graduate week. He said, you know,

474
00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:40,079
what do you want to do when you graduate?

475
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:40,279
Speaker 1: You know?

476
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: I said, what I really want to do is be

477
00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:44,279
a novelist. Well, keep your day job, right, there's so

478
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,200
much of this sneering. You'll join me in the real

479
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,079
world soon enough, you know. And part of it is

480
00:24:50,079 --> 00:24:53,039
is you want to shelter the enthusiasm that you have

481
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,000
right now, like a pilot light. You want to shelter that,

482
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,839
and you want to hold it, and you don't want

483
00:24:57,839 --> 00:25:01,119
to worry too much about if you put your faith

484
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,680
in pursuing the thing that's of interest to you. Obviously

485
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,960
you're here, so you're exceptional in a bunch of ways

486
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,240
that don't make a whole lot of sense, probably because

487
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,799
that's the selection process, and you want to be able

488
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:16,279
to shelter that as you move and continue to grow

489
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,920
that and not take measures that are expedient and say, well,

490
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,079
you know, but I need And that doesn't mean you

491
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:23,599
don't live in the real world. You don't have to

492
00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:25,160
figure it out. You don't need to pay rent, you

493
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,160
don't need to get jobs and take care of who

494
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,240
you need to take care of and see your responsibilities.

495
00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:32,359
But that thing is so important. It's the most important

496
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,960
thing that you can do, is to shelter that.

497
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. The truth is I probably shouldn't

498
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,480
say this, but the truth is that our world right

499
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,599
now is the best world possible in which to be poor.

500
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,559
It's actually like, it's not that it's not that bad

501
00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:50,680
to be poor, because there's everything is there to prevent

502
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,519
you from starving, which is pretty much all you need.

503
00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:54,680
You just need to not starve and make sure that

504
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:57,200
like that you don't have rain falling on your head.

505
00:25:57,279 --> 00:25:59,960
If you can figure that out, then then the world

506
00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:03,400
the world is open, you know. And every time someone

507
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:06,920
asked me about becoming an artist, that's one of the

508
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,359
first questions I asked them, is like, are you willing

509
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,319
to be poor? And it doesn't mean that you will

510
00:26:13,319 --> 00:26:16,839
be but you have to be willing to and that's okay.

511
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:20,119
And it's hard because there's pressure, Like there's pressure from

512
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,200
your family, there's pressure for all around, you know, people saying, well,

513
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:25,559
you're not being responsible, you're not doing the right thing.

514
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,599
Forget that, Like, actually, you just have to you have

515
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,440
to ignore that. If you're healthy, you know, somewhat healthy,

516
00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:36,000
and you're eating and you're staying, you have a roof

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,599
at least when you're like in your twenties, you're good.

518
00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:40,880
That's good to go. And you have and you have

519
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,880
the time now and the space to develop the big

520
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,359
questions that you have, because that for some people it

521
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,720
doesn't but for a lot of people, as you get older,

522
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:54,079
that space runs out like that, it runs out. The

523
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,640
capacity to ask the big question just kind of gets

524
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,759
taken up by the worries of the world.

525
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: You know, you have to practice it for atrophies.

526
00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:06,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you said, you meet people all the

527
00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:08,079
time that are exactly the way that you said. They

528
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,480
come up to you and they said, I, when I

529
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:11,160
was in my twenties, I wanted to be an artist,

530
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,720
but now I'm so and so and it's just like

531
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,519
gray in their eyes, like a drab thing, and I

532
00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:19,160
keep thinking, well, why didn't you just do it? Like what, well,

533
00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:20,839
you know, you got to pay the bills, you got

534
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,240
to do that. I would say, I don't know, but

535
00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:26,240
I think Greg is right in seeing that the fact

536
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,799
that you're even here shows that you already understand some

537
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,079
of that, you know. And the thing, the weirdest thing

538
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,799
about it is all the people that all the people

539
00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:39,079
that will criticize you. And I've experienced this myself. All

540
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:41,720
the people that criticized my family when we were like

541
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,839
dirt poor with three kids, like just barely making making it.

542
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,559
You know, they forgot that. Now they forgot that that's

543
00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:52,200
how they saw me now, and and now they're just like,

544
00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:54,440
oh wow, it's so great. You know you're successful with

545
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,200
like yeah, but you you know, you were totally like family,

546
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,200
even like you're totally judging us and having this kind

547
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,039
of disdain towards us, and now you're like this, it's

548
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,440
kind of funny. So it's like, don't worry about that stuff,

549
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,680
not too Yeah, it's not worth it.

550
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,279
Speaker 3: Can I jump in and ask a question? Why do

551
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,759
you too think you feel compelled to create stories, whether

552
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:21,440
that's through imagery or words. What is it if you

553
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,119
could put a word to it that defines or describes

554
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:25,799
that compulsion.

555
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: Well, for me, part of it is the novels. The

556
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,359
only time I get to speak for four hundred pages

557
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:47,319
without being interrupted pot kettle. You know, I think it's

558
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,279
weird for me. It's almost like, you know, for those

559
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:52,640
of you have a habit of working out. You know,

560
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,359
when you don't work out, you just feel all plugged

561
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,599
up and not write in the world. If I'm not writing,

562
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,400
if I don't write properly, rough draft writing, I don't

563
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,960
feel good. It's almost like it's like the sun to

564
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:06,359
a plant. It's just a huge part of how I

565
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,960
express myself. And I always wrote. I mean, when I

566
00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:11,319
was a kid, I loved reading. My parents didn't let

567
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:13,920
me watch television, and I read the entire young adult

568
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,599
section of our library. By the by fifth grade, I

569
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,440
was reading Stephen King and I thought, anybody who loves stories.

570
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,880
My sister is a fanatical reader. I thought anybody who

571
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,119
loved stories would want to write stories. I just thought,

572
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,319
because you know, we're in our own little little world,

573
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,880
or we're looking at through our own weird colitoscope. And

574
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,599
I was like, if you love stories, why wouldn't you

575
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:35,759
want to write stories? Isn't that the coolest thing anyone

576
00:29:35,799 --> 00:29:38,799
could ever do. I remember asking my sister, who's now

577
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:42,400
a you know, clinical professor of pediatric astonrology, like when

578
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,920
are you going to start your book? When she was

579
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,599
in like seventh grade. She's like, I don't want to write.

580
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,079
I just like reading them, you know, you know there's

581
00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:51,519
things that we like. So it was it's so weird.

582
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,279
It's so integral to who I am and how I

583
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,680
function and how I see the world and how I think.

584
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,759
I think in stories, I think in words. I've even

585
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:01,839
had really weird dreams when I was deep editing. I

586
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,599
had a dream one time that the dream was in

587
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,559
Microsoft Word and I was editing the dream, and then

588
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,799
and then I had I had another dream that was

589
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:14,759
a nightmare that I was walking through and something came out.

590
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:16,279
I was walking through a dark house and something came

591
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:19,160
out and scared me. And a jump scare is always

592
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,359
like the cheapest thing in movies, right, And so I thought, well,

593
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,279
this would actually be a lot scarier if I had

594
00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:26,920
suspense first. So I like rewound the dream and had

595
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,559
like bloody footprints too, so that the tension mounted so

596
00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:33,359
that when the scare happened, I was more scared. So

597
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:36,720
I think I'm just I'm very hardwired. It's like it's

598
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:38,319
like a calling for me.

599
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: Really, I think that for me, you know, the secret

600
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,960
is this is I really believe this that we have.

601
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: You know, we have.

602
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,079
Speaker 1: Rhetoric, we have politics, we have economy, mathematics, we have

603
00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,359
all these these ways of knowing and of seeing, and

604
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,400
we have science. But underneath that there as a art

605
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,319
is actually underneath it all, which is that story making.

606
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,680
There's three I think there's the making of space, that

607
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:11,839
is architecture. There's the making of the story and the

608
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:15,160
making of the image, and those three they are the

609
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:21,599
secret binding for everything else. Everything else exists within that world.

610
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,079
And it's like almost like an esoteric secret that is

611
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:27,079
that if you can control the story, not control, if

612
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:30,880
you can tell the story, then you're actually changing the

613
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,599
way people see and think about the world before they

614
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,839
have any opinion. And so that's why fairy tales, that's

615
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:40,279
why I love fair tales so much. That's why I

616
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:42,599
love the Bible stories, That's why I love myth because

617
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,319
that's what those stories are there to do. And you know,

618
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,759
and there's a sense in which in the last few decades,

619
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,279
I would say that the story making element of our

620
00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:01,880
society has been was colonized or was parasitized by ideological strains,

621
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:05,359
and that has an effect, like it actually changes the

622
00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:07,680
way people see the world. People don't even realize that

623
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,119
they're seeing the world through these new stories, and so

624
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,440
it's exposing I hope you can see how important the

625
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:19,359
story is. That is that how you frame the world

626
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:23,960
in which you live. And now is the time to

627
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:27,519
tell stories again, right, it really is because everything is

628
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,319
shaking and everything is kind of in flux, and we

629
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,519
don't know what's going to happen, and it's kind of wild.

630
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,480
Anything's possible. But it also means that those that plant

631
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,880
the right stories now they will be the ones giving

632
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,359
their directions. And so can we be the ones that

633
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:49,079
tell stories that are true, that aren't captured, that aren't ideological,

634
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:51,200
but are true in the sense that they have the

635
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,440
most reality in it. And so I think that's why

636
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,839
I'm so fascinated by stories and image making. You know,

637
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,759
I can't be an architect, it's complicated, but like the

638
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,839
stories in the image making, you know, it's like I

639
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,599
just want to be involved because I know that now

640
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:07,920
is the is the moment.

641
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:11,759
Speaker 2: There's a tendency when things are moving a certain way,

642
00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:14,039
and I think, like just to put a label on it,

643
00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:18,799
let's call it increasing postmodernism. Right, to think that progress

644
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,799
is better than not progress. Number one, there's a value judgment,

645
00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:25,039
but also that the right side of history is always

646
00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:27,000
on the side of the way that momentum is going.

647
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:29,640
And obviously we're seeing that in a lot of cases

648
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,400
where that's gone too far into a kind of insanity.

649
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,519
And when I think about the way that storytelling has changed,

650
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:40,960
it ripples throughout all of the professions, across everything. So

651
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,960
you think just twentieth century. So you have The Sound

652
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,519
and the Fury by Faulkner, right, which is what's one

653
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:49,119
story that's told from four perspectives. One of them is

654
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,640
a retarded brother. There's different siblings in one family. You

655
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,000
have rasham On right, which is that the movie Krosawa movie,

656
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,039
where it's one story told from four perspectives. Cubism Right,

657
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:03,359
what's a nude look like to sending a staircase? It's

658
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:06,640
an image of a woman in sixteen different dimensions all

659
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,719
at once. You have three of relativity where all of

660
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,800
a sudden, science starts asking those questions. Even in psychology,

661
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,079
you have a shift in perspective of Freud sitting smoking

662
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:18,719
his pipe while the patient lays and stares up at

663
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,239
his own, you know, the abyss of his own unconscious

664
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,039
versus Rogers, who sits someone up and looks them in

665
00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:28,079
the eye. There's a perspective shift that happens. And all

666
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:31,199
those things are very interesting and compelling. They're movements towards

667
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,760
examining and exploring different modes of perception. Right, And obviously

668
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,199
theologically you can talk about all the ways that happened.

669
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,599
But when they go too far, what happens is the

670
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,480
form begins to elevate over the function. Right, So all

671
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,880
of a sudden, it's what's the most fragmented something can be,

672
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,760
what's the most diabolical, disintegrated into parts? Right, Then you

673
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,039
get doatas poetry, you get urinals hanging on walls of

674
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:56,719
museums as works of ears. Right, you get the thing

675
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,480
that's sort of absurd, and it becomes an intellectual exercise

676
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,320
that's focused around it. And I think that that pendulum

677
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440
swing has gone far enough into this direction that's so

678
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,960
sort of intellectually masturbatory that now there's going to be

679
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,400
a time for resetting and a bringing together again of

680
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,800
form and function in a way that the form has

681
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,519
to suit it. It's something can be a really cool trek.

682
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:22,039
Once we were talking about Paulack last night, Jackson Pollack.

683
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,079
Something can be amazing if somebody does it once or

684
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,320
innovative renew But if you keep moving in that direction,

685
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:33,559
what you have is a complete, shattered mosaic of different impulses,

686
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:38,199
all of which are individual cries of self expression.

687
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's also if you think about how, say

688
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,639
you have a story, right, you have the identity of

689
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:48,960
something that's encompassed in an image and a story, and

690
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,760
there's room in that story, on the edges of it

691
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,760
to question it, to poke at it, right, to create

692
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,280
ironic commentary on the story. And it's actually completely coherent.

693
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,159
You see that all through history, right, if you think

694
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:07,480
of Ovid's metamorphosis, like that's what Ovid was doing in

695
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:12,079
the first century, right, he was basically deconstructing his own

696
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:15,480
mythological tradition. And so there's room for all of those

697
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,840
things within the tradition. But we have limited we've come

698
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,880
to a point. We've also limited the idea of what

699
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,079
it is to be a cultured person to that deconstruction, right,

700
00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:29,440
and that's that's obviously runs out and somebody just runs

701
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,480
it falls into like fragmentation and just breaks apart into

702
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:35,599
a million pieces. And now and there are moments when

703
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:40,280
it's actually time to recast the story, right, to rediscover

704
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,960
the center, to kind of come back to what is

705
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,880
the shining light that you that later someone will deconstruct

706
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,079
for sure. And so I think that that's the greatness

707
00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:52,320
of the moment. Now is that I think this is

708
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,840
possible because in some ways we now have the fertilizer

709
00:36:56,119 --> 00:37:00,719
of the decomposed, you know, cynical narrative which to plant

710
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,079
a seed of and authenticity.

711
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot like psychopaths and fraud men will shortcut

712
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,840
the process and just pick up like I like Jackson Pollock,

713
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,480
I'll flick paint on the wall and we forget. I mean,

714
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,480
if you look at Picasso's early work, he's a staggering

715
00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:18,880
traditional painter, right, It's not like he just all of

716
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,000
a sudden made a face on a napkin and everyone

717
00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:25,039
lost their minds. So there's something about you know, I

718
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:28,920
wrote my eighth novel has a sort of a bit

719
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,039
of a meta element to it that there's a crime

720
00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:33,320
writer who gets accused of a crime and he has

721
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,239
to write the story of what's happening to him and

722
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,960
edit the story which is the investigation that he's solving.

723
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,119
But if it was all meta, all it is is

724
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,320
a parlor trick. It's pick a card. And so in

725
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,159
a way, not that there's ever mastery of an art form,

726
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:49,280
but you want to be as close to mastery of

727
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,679
what everything is before you take that and you start

728
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,800
to twist it and play with that. And I remember

729
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,039
when I wrote a very profoundly mediocre rough draft in

730
00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,480
my first novel. I started very young, nineteen. But when

731
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,960
my first agent asked who I eventually did sixteen rewrites

732
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,880
with before we sold them, we said, you know, what

733
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,199
is it? It's like, well, it's kind of an action thriller,

734
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,239
but it's a parody of an action thriller. And it's this,

735
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,400
and it's like, you can't do eight things at once,

736
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:16,719
like what section of the bookstore does it go in?

737
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,440
Like what like accomplish that first, right? And if you

738
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,519
can accomplish something that's within the re and that's part

739
00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:24,360
of what you're doing a lot of what you're doing

740
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,039
with this master's program is you want to get an

741
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,320
expert grasp of the essentials, and then you want to

742
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,320
grow and embody those things, and then you can start

743
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,719
to play and innovate within the form. But if you

744
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,760
just skip straight to innovation, there's no discipline in that,

745
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,639
there's no responsibility, there's no tradition. You're standing on to

746
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,079
sort of proclaim things to higher heights.

747
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's ends up becoming the flatter and flatter

748
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,719
and just more and more shallow as the cynicism increases,

749
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,840
and as the comment upon a comment, you know, it's.

750
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: Because it's more about you, it's more about your own

751
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,800
narcissistic self expression than a tradition that you've embodied.

752
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think that that's what this is. Right

753
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,159
now is the right time to be doing that. And

754
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,360
what's amazing about what Ralson is doing and for you guys,

755
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,320
is as people are running away, as a lot of

756
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,320
the institutions are running away from the foundational stories that

757
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,239
have brought us where we are, you'll have like a

758
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:24,920
jewel that a lot of people don't have. It's like

759
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,239
a treasure, really, is what it is. You know, and

760
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:29,679
this is actually the exciting moment of being at the

761
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,039
end of something or at the moment where it's kind

762
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:35,440
of falling apart. Is you're like, you know, you're like

763
00:39:35,519 --> 00:39:38,599
in Lord of the Rings and or some you know,

764
00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:41,519
some fantasy novel where people have forgotten the tales of

765
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:44,360
the kings and now everybody nobody knows who they are,

766
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,480
and someone finds this grimoire and inside there's like the

767
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,320
secret history of their own people. It's like, actually, this

768
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,159
is what we're going through right now. Like, you guys

769
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:54,639
have the chance to do that. Nobody, you know, people

770
00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:57,039
aren't reading the text that you're reading. They're not going

771
00:39:57,079 --> 00:39:59,559
into the tradition anymore, and so you'll have like you

772
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:03,599
actually will have like a treasure that will illumine and

773
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,519
you can feel it like when people hold that treasure,

774
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:08,960
like people who have a good knowledge of history, or

775
00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:13,400
people that have a good knowledge of literature, it informs

776
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,599
their conversation and when they're speaking, they don't have to

777
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:21,039
reference directly the literature or the history, but everything they

778
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:24,960
say will have an extra weight because even just in

779
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,719
their mind, they know that they have their standing on

780
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,400
something that isn't just fifty years old. That isn't just

781
00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:33,960
you know, like the last fashionable theory that people are

782
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,239
grabbing onto you.

783
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: There's a moral responsibility in coming out of here to

784
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:44,719
not just live up to your learning, but also to

785
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,480
be interesting. That's a moral responsibility to follow what is

786
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:51,719
engaging to you and to be interesting in the world,

787
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,679
because that's infectious, and that's a really important part of

788
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,119
it to think about, Like this is a it's a

789
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:01,519
treasure to be able to spend a year the way

790
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:03,880
that you're spending it. It's incredibly rare, and you're going

791
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,960
to have something other people don't have. And you know,

792
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:12,400
for years, my biggest frustration has been the people who

793
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:18,000
are sort of what's a phrase, semi educated. Right, you

794
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:21,360
have the degree, you have the viewpoints, you have your

795
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:26,800
six sources of expertise, and everything's sort of rigid and ossified. Right,

796
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,480
you know what you think about everything, and you go

797
00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:31,960
to these dinner parties at times, Right, I used to

798
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,280
where everything that everybody says you could write for them

799
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,519
in advance. You know all of their perspectives, you know

800
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:40,199
what their opinion is going to be on everything. And

801
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,159
we see this increase. It's like watching MSNBC versus Fox News,

802
00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:46,320
Like there's never going to be a startling revelation of

803
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,360
incredible duance of some received wisdom that they're accommodating and assimilating.

804
00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:56,360
And there's a complacency within the academic the prevailing academic

805
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,800
world right now, and there's not a living fire in it.

806
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,320
And so part of it is is when you can

807
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,599
wield that as a living thing, you're wielding fire, and

808
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,639
there's an incredible amount of power that you're going to

809
00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,000
have that you can bring to things, and you can

810
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,599
it's going to give you pause when you're approaching something,

811
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:16,639
to stop and step back into what do you really

812
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:19,000
think what is really going to be the highest and

813
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,079
best good or engagement with something, and you can figure

814
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:24,519
out ways to innovate in ways to alter and ways

815
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:27,960
to kind of shatter through a lot of the codified corruption,

816
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:31,480
whether that's intellectual or moral, that's around things, figure out

817
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:32,639
ways to do things differently.

818
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 3: When the two of you look back on your twenties,

819
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,800
what do you think you did well and what do

820
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,119
you know now in hindsight, was something to learn from,

821
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,440
something to alter course? When you were older?

822
00:42:54,559 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: I mean, my twenties were a time of massive, massive, change,

823
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,960
like just complete one eighty change in my in my life.

824
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,599
So it's hard to know, you know, how it could

825
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:09,000
have happened. For sure, you know that I went to

826
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,280
art school and I finished, you know with I think

827
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,719
I was the first in my program, but I was

828
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,880
also it was not where I should have been, and

829
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,039
I kind of I kind of knew that after once

830
00:43:21,079 --> 00:43:23,400
I was looking back, I was like, it was there

831
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,360
were there were things showing me that this was not

832
00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:30,480
for me. And then at my last evaluation, you know,

833
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:32,639
my the professor that was in charge of me, she said,

834
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,760
this is at the end of my degree. She said,

835
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,920
she said, Jonathan, don't worry. You're getting all a's like,

836
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:39,280
it's everything's okay. But I just wanted to tell you

837
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,360
that you really don't belong here. And she said, she said,

838
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,599
really you why don't you like go to seminary or

839
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:46,880
something like you don't belong here?

840
00:43:47,199 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 4: Uh?

841
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:49,599
Speaker 1: And she was absolutely right. I just I was in

842
00:43:49,679 --> 00:43:51,800
my twenty I was like cocky, so I was just like, yeah, whatever,

843
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:54,360
but she was absolutely right. Uh. And so I would

844
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,880
say that that's something. But it's weird because in some

845
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,239
ways you end up recuperating it because my understanding of

846
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,000
postmodernism and my understanding of contemporary art has been extremely

847
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:11,119
useful for me because I know what I'm standing against,

848
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:14,400
not completely against, but I know what I'm standing against,

849
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,360
and then also wanting to incorporate just enough of it

850
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:21,960
into my stance so that I'm breathing right, so it's

851
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,280
not just this ossified, weird thing that I'm no. I

852
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,559
just reacting to it and now I'm I'm against it.

853
00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:29,440
So but I maybe I could have done that without

854
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,800
spending you know, like four years, Like maybe that's possible.

855
00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:36,679
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the one thing I definitely had

856
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,159
the like in the NFL they call it motor, you know,

857
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,760
like I had the work ethic to outwork like because

858
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,800
I knew that my job, this career would take a

859
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,239
lot of luck. And I think of luck as you know,

860
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:51,400
a hatch is going to open in the ceiling of

861
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:52,639
where you are, and you got to be ready to

862
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:54,639
go through me. You got to be flapping against that

863
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,639
ceiling no matter what. And I was. It's all I

864
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:00,360
wanted to do. It's funny you talk about being broke,

865
00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:03,280
you know I was. I graduated in college and my

866
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,440
roommates were going on to be like ibankers and lawyers

867
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,320
and doctors and everyone's made, you know, like starting salary

868
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,880
one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, which sounded like eleventy

869
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,880
billion dollars. And I wanted to be a novelist, and

870
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,039
so I kind of stalled. I did a year at

871
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:19,199
I want a fellowship. I did a year at Oxford,

872
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,519
you know, Masters in Shakespeare in Tragedy, just to have

873
00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:24,920
a very practical degree in case my primary career as

874
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,599
a novelists didn't pan out. But I was just working

875
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:31,760
and I said at the time, if somebody could come

876
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,760
up to me and say, well, we'll write you a check,

877
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,960
you can have twenty five hundred dollars a month for

878
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,360
the rest of your life, and you can live in

879
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,400
a studio and you can just write full time. I

880
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,920
would have taken that deal. Now I'm elated that I

881
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,880
didn't at this point, but you know, it's all I

882
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,760
wanted to do. And so I think I had the

883
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,440
work ethic and I also had at some point for

884
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:52,440
whatever reason. And it's weird. I'm from a family of

885
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:56,480
you know, doctors and lawyers and sort of traditional professionals.

886
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,440
For some reason, I had the awareness to break from

887
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,880
everything and risk everything on myself and just say this

888
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,519
is what I'm doing. And even when I finished, I

889
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:08,559
was pretty fortunate. You know, I sold my first book.

890
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:10,840
I was fairly young. But whenever I did a job,

891
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,360
it was like, how do I make the most money

892
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,679
the quickest so that I can still have thirty five

893
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,559
hours a week to write? Like everything was geared around that.

894
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,039
And even when I did my first deal, you know,

895
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:23,000
I thought, if I live on that aforementioned twenty five

896
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:25,440
hundred a month, how many months do I have in

897
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,679
the bank to keep writing, because it's all I wanted

898
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,199
to do. And if you're a doctor and you have

899
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,000
a bad, you know, stretch financially, you don't have to

900
00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:36,679
then go be the janitor or take another job, right,

901
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:40,119
But as a writer, if you mismanage that, you lose

902
00:46:40,159 --> 00:46:41,920
the time to do the thing that you love and

903
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,440
that feeds you. And I'd say, you know, the things

904
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,599
that I learned, it's always it's hard because now I'm

905
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,280
just on the back half of fifty I'm fifty one,

906
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,679
and so there's this awareness of I can look back

907
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,880
and have some sadness distinct from regret about the things

908
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,199
I didn't know earlier, but without me going through them

909
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,760
and bumbling through them, there's no way that I could

910
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,280
have integrated to reach the knowledge that I have to

911
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,400
then look back at them. So it's a very weird

912
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:15,639
thing to not be grievancey or resentful or remorseful, but

913
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,039
to also just look with sadness at some things that

914
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:21,000
I might have missed at earlier stages. And I think

915
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:25,599
some of that was I probably earlier on it was

916
00:47:25,639 --> 00:47:27,519
hard to figure out the balance of how much you

917
00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:30,000
go for and grab and reach for and how much

918
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,800
when you do that it receeds. So later in life,

919
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,639
you know, I think I figured out a lot more

920
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:37,400
about that, you know, like even just an interacting let's

921
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,800
say with Hollywood. Like at one point, my book series

922
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,079
is called Orphan Ax, and at one point i'd adapted

923
00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:44,079
it in a few huge ways for a few huge

924
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,719
movie stars who I had lost all the projects, and

925
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,239
it was sort of seen about the town. And I

926
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,639
remember my manager calling me about four years ago, three

927
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,599
years ago and saying like, well, the series has been seen,

928
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,599
and so for Hollywood, they're not sure it didn't even

929
00:47:56,599 --> 00:47:58,719
if it didn't get made for reasons that I lost

930
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,840
these stars. But I had, you know, these big deals,

931
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,920
and it would just it didn't move forward. I said,

932
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,719
no problem, tell everyone it's not for sale. She's like

933
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,559
what I said, don't like, just take it off the

934
00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:09,920
market completely, Like, I'm not selling it. I know where

935
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,000
the series is going. I have a lot of confidence

936
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:14,599
on the track record. And we just pulled it back.

937
00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:16,760
She said, okay. The first inquiries that came in, it

938
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,079
was like, no, he's not selling it. And so you know,

939
00:48:19,159 --> 00:48:22,039
a year and a half later, we had seven eight

940
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:25,360
interested parties. We had four studios bidding, and we started

941
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,840
another right deal. And there's something in not If you

942
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,000
reach for something too much, it recedes, but you need

943
00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:35,480
a confidence to not and figuring out that toggle. I

944
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,159
couldn't have done this when I was twenty four writing

945
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,880
my third novel, right, like, you can't do it ahead

946
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,880
of time. But that's a balance. That is something that

947
00:48:45,119 --> 00:48:48,199
I think it would have been lovely to know how

948
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,760
to manage those things with. I think perhaps a little

949
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,920
bit more grace and displaying even less need. And I

950
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,599
already started with an advantage with that, because you know,

951
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:59,440
I was I was a full fledged novelist before I

952
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:03,159
joined Hall. Would with screenwriting and then TV and then comics,

953
00:49:03,159 --> 00:49:06,400
so I never needed it fully, but there is something

954
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,719
about this sort of flow of work and letting things

955
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,199
go and leaving them open, is there's a kind of

956
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,320
gracefulness that I think I'm only starting to learn over

957
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:18,039
the last years.

958
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

959
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 8: Let's open up for your questions, guys, and I will

960
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:34,280
give you this like an It.

961
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:36,199
Speaker 2: Looks like we covered meaning meaning in life and career.

962
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:40,679
Speaker 9: Okay, what has been the experience for you and your

963
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:44,440
families emerging as more public personalities and how have you

964
00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:47,880
grappled with that in addition to the responsibility that I

965
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,039
feel like you both have in the interest that you

966
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:52,840
have to contribute to human society.

967
00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 10: In the world.

968
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:57,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, it's been more recent. Like you, it's

969
00:49:57,559 --> 00:49:59,679
been kind of this just kind of progressive moving to

970
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,960
the p public. Me, it's it is more recent and

971
00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:05,599
in some ways just maybe since COVID, like twenty twenty

972
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,000
is when people really started to start to know us

973
00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:10,239
what I'm doing, and it's it's kind of increasing. I

974
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,400
would say, it's like a fifty to fifty to fifty

975
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,360
to fifty thing. On the one hand, you know, it's great,

976
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,760
you know, there's something you know, my kids. I think

977
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,119
my kids are proud of what I'm doing, Like they

978
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,880
they like their dad, Like they're proud of their dad.

979
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:25,159
And to me, that's really cool. I love that because

980
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,519
you could have teenagers that are really embarrassed with their

981
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:29,519
dad and like, you know, it's like want to shy away.

982
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,599
So that has been for me like a great joy.

983
00:50:32,119 --> 00:50:35,800
But you know, I also it's harsh, you know, because

984
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,079
you're married and you have kids, and so you're traveling

985
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:41,280
and the perception of the public. You know, your wife

986
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,760
knows that it's like some of it is bullshit. You know,

987
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,239
it's like you're also this grumpy Jonathan to get wakes

988
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:47,559
up in the morning and doesn't want to talk to me.

989
00:50:47,639 --> 00:50:50,480
You're like, you're also like this other thing that is

990
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,480
less pleasant than the one that everybody sees. And so

991
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:57,159
I think that sometimes at least I feel that, you know,

992
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,440
like there can be a bit of a of an

993
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,280
annoyance that everybody would come up to you and like

994
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,519
imagine like imagine your like imagine my wife's home comes

995
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:09,360
up and say, well, isn't it how amazing is it

996
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,519
to be married to Johnson Vedro And she's like, okay, whatever,

997
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,559
it's like.

998
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: Like his only friends or prison.

999
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 1: It's like if only you knew you know. Uh So

1000
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,199
that's been like, that's been one of the downsides. I've

1001
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,320
been trying to compensate. It was like trying to bring

1002
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,360
them with me as much as I can, to travel

1003
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:27,920
with me and to kind of do the things with me.

1004
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,320
But it's definitely.

1005
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: Can hear even more about how many, But there is.

1006
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:36,039
Speaker 1: A there is a definitely a challenging aspect to that

1007
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:38,239
because it takes up a lot of space.

1008
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say for me, I did you know it

1009
00:51:42,159 --> 00:51:43,719
was weird? I had. I had a good amount of

1010
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,639
success early, like by twenty three, twenty four. I'm very

1011
00:51:46,679 --> 00:51:49,000
glad that when my career started, like I mean, I

1012
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,320
had a website, but it wasn't online. I got to

1013
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,199
acclimate a little bit more as things progressed. My wife

1014
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,719
grew up in a in a Hollywood family, in that environment,

1015
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,719
and so she had like her grandmother figure was Lucille

1016
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,519
Ball and her first memory is Groucho Marx rocking her.

1017
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:07,320
And what's funny is when we met, I was like, oh,

1018
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,119
I got to go to this agent. I was still

1019
00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:11,719
kind of like younger about Hollywood guy, like I got

1020
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:13,559
to go to my agent party and she was likeh

1021
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,719
Like she was just so if there was arrogance or

1022
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,079
vanity or gatekeeping, she just was So. This wasn't the

1023
00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:23,880
world she grew up in, you know. She was she

1024
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,400
grew up going to like Sammy Davis Junior's parties where

1025
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,840
it was just like welcoming and everyone was great and

1026
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,280
it was all the real side of things. And so

1027
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,280
I think for her, engaging with me then at a

1028
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,000
lower level and seeing like big showy agents being great

1029
00:52:38,039 --> 00:52:40,880
at parties was completely not of interest, and that was

1030
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,440
it was amazing for me. I think we're similar that

1031
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,360
we both married women who don't care whatsoever about like

1032
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,719
material stature, Like there's like zero concern. And you know,

1033
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,800
initially it was a little annoying because I was like, wow,

1034
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,719
I'm trying to figure it out, and like this guy

1035
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,960
invited us over and he's the you know, president of

1036
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,639
this star company and we have to do it. And

1037
00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:03,760
she was like, if you don't like the person who can,

1038
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,559
and of course it's it's all right in hindsight, and

1039
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:11,760
hindsight like anything that was too grabby, it's funny. I

1040
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,639
was at a party, and I still like going to

1041
00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:16,400
a premiere or going to like parties like now and then.

1042
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,840
But I was with a friend of mine who's from

1043
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,360
a South African actor and we were looking around and

1044
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,440
there's some of the same faces I remember from when

1045
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,960
I was twenty four at the parties. Everyone's just older.

1046
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,920
They're higher up in the studio, they're more famous actors.

1047
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,119
And we were having a laugh about like, God, remember

1048
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:33,280
going to this where like you'd go around and like

1049
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,679
collect business cards and be like, oh, like we're gonna

1050
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,880
and like nothing ever comes of any of that, you know,

1051
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,719
And so that was really helpful, I think for part

1052
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,239
of the process that I talked about earlier of learning

1053
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,599
to not press or not you know, move in and

1054
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:50,199
think that you need to do something. And it's so funny.

1055
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:55,840
I settled at a younger age into a real relationship

1056
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,039
within community among let's say Hollywood or publishing or wherever

1057
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:03,800
I move, where it's all genuine friendships with quirky, brilliant,

1058
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,760
creative people. Like that's all that matters, right, It doesn't,

1059
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,199
None of it matters in a way that is expedient

1060
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,079
of this is a useful relationship. And so and then

1061
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:14,719
Once you're in that space, it just kind of proliferates out.

1062
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,559
So I'd say that the more the older that I get,

1063
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:22,400
but my wife had a significant role in that too,

1064
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,519
the more comfortable that it is in a lot of ways,

1065
00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:28,360
and in terms of responsibility in a lot of ways.

1066
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,960
What's interesting is the responsibility part comes. I think for

1067
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,800
me it's twofold. One of them is, you know, I've

1068
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,119
written twenty five novels, right, I've been added a while,

1069
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,239
and I'm the co president of a group called International

1070
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:46,000
Thriller Writers, and we have like six billion books in print. Right.

1071
00:54:46,039 --> 00:54:49,000
We have Patterson and Grisha, like we have everybody as

1072
00:54:49,039 --> 00:54:50,800
part of this group, and I've been the co president,

1073
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,800
and so we've been able to take a lot of

1074
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:58,599
these steps with relative little effort. I mean, it's definitely

1075
00:54:58,639 --> 00:55:00,559
his effort and thought. But like the the amount that

1076
00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:04,360
we can help people significantly, it's certain key junctures when

1077
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:05,960
they want to be helped and when they're the right

1078
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,199
people to help is just unbelievable. And so that there

1079
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:13,360
is definitely a different responsibility in terms of turning some

1080
00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:16,199
corner and then recognizing that like all the people who

1081
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,360
helped me along the way, when I was young and

1082
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,599
in my twenties and as arrogant as you with your

1083
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,079
art teacher, like you can do that and you can guide,

1084
00:55:25,119 --> 00:55:27,599
and there's a real there's a real joy in that

1085
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,920
to be able to have that. And the other thing

1086
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,519
really is, you know, in large part because of my

1087
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,360
affiliation and close friendship with Jordan, I've been more and

1088
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,840
more public and then in a lot of ways I

1089
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,719
did I've done some sperlunking into the culture to try

1090
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,480
and first to try and pull the Democrats back from

1091
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,360
the far left. I've been on We did Exodus together,

1092
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:51,719
Jonathan and I and Stephen, and we did the Gospels

1093
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,679
on daily Wire, and there's been a lot of very

1094
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,360
public facing things, and I think in the face of that,

1095
00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:02,519
I have felt more responsibility to hold the kind of

1096
00:56:02,559 --> 00:56:06,320
center and to be truthful, but also very intensely not

1097
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,760
to be reactive and become part of a political system

1098
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,440
or the culture wars are all these things, but to

1099
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:16,119
try and to try to be an adult. Like there's

1100
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:17,559
an age you get to where you kind of look

1101
00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:19,400
around and you go things are a mess, and like

1102
00:56:19,519 --> 00:56:21,960
we're sort of the grown ups now, right, how are

1103
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,800
we going to handle this? Like, and so there is

1104
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,280
some responsibility from that part of it that comes with

1105
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,119
trying to be trying to adhere to a higher set

1106
00:56:31,159 --> 00:56:35,639
of standards for myself because it's important, And a lot

1107
00:56:35,639 --> 00:56:38,599
of that has to do with speaking speaking the actual

1108
00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:42,320
truth as I feel it, but not also overcompensating and

1109
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,840
becoming angry or screamy or pushy in a way that

1110
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,360
then allows for resistance.

1111
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love what you said about Also,

1112
00:56:50,519 --> 00:56:55,719
like non instrumentality. I think this is something that, like

1113
00:56:56,119 --> 00:56:59,960
Stephen has really made me think about. Like I think

1114
00:57:00,119 --> 00:57:02,360
then naturally I don't tend to I don't tend to

1115
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,880
think that way, But especially as you become more known

1116
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:08,320
or like more in the public sphere, does you have

1117
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,840
to be more aware of that question? It's like why

1118
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,000
am I in relationship with this person? And is it

1119
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:15,320
just because it's going to you know, it's going to

1120
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,239
like you find yourself in this weird position where you're

1121
00:57:17,239 --> 00:57:21,719
like meeting billionaires, you know, and then then you're like, well,

1122
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:23,960
why am I? Why am I talking to this person?

1123
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,280
It is just because they have a lot of money?

1124
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,440
Is that the reason why I'm talking to them? Or

1125
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:30,360
is there something else? Like is there some interesting conversation.

1126
00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:33,320
I mean, having these successful people often are sharp and intelligent,

1127
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,639
and so it's interesting to talk to them, but what's

1128
00:57:35,679 --> 00:57:40,000
the reason. And so I found myself becoming more sensitive

1129
00:57:40,039 --> 00:57:43,559
to that and trying to question my relationships in ways

1130
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:45,760
and thinking like why am I pursuing this person or

1131
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,920
why am I am I engaging with them? And that's

1132
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,360
definitely been a lesson. And I know Steven has been

1133
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,039
great because he's in our discussions about these questions. He's

1134
00:57:55,039 --> 00:57:59,079
always insisting, like the best world always comes from non

1135
00:57:59,199 --> 00:58:02,360
instrumental like if you if you treat people with a

1136
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,119
genuine curiosity and you meet people that are genuinely interesting

1137
00:58:06,159 --> 00:58:08,360
and just engage with them, that in the end what

1138
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,840
will come out of it will actually be better than

1139
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,840
if you were trying to figure out like how can

1140
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,119
I how can I get something? Or partner with this

1141
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:17,239
person to like to like do something. And that's the

1142
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,599
same thing like Greg and I in some ways became friends.

1143
00:58:20,199 --> 00:58:22,320
We didn't we hadn't wouldn't have thought at the outset

1144
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,719
to like write something together, but we just started talking

1145
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,360
and becoming friends, and all of a sudden, I was like, hey,

1146
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,360
this makes sense, Like maybe let's try let's try this. Uh,

1147
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,480
and then out of that comes something that I think

1148
00:58:32,599 --> 00:58:36,920
is is fruitful because it's not built on you know, like, oh,

1149
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,679
he's got contacts here, and like, let's use his contacts

1150
00:58:39,679 --> 00:58:41,440
to you know, get this done or whatever.

1151
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:45,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, beware the plan that you like sort of push

1152
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,400
and manipulate and grasp your way to because then you

1153
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,039
have that yeah. Yeah, and then you know people don't

1154
00:58:53,119 --> 00:58:56,079
necessarily all the parties in that aren't all row in

1155
00:58:56,159 --> 00:58:56,760
the same direction.

1156
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I have.

1157
00:59:03,199 --> 00:59:07,639
Speaker 11: Sorry, I have a question to to fall follow up

1158
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:08,280
up on that.

1159
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: And it's like.

1160
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:16,599
Speaker 11: You guys are talking about following your own passions and

1161
00:59:16,639 --> 00:59:21,280
like you like it seems like you never intended to

1162
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,320
be like I'm like like like famous or something, or

1163
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,360
like like you weren't trying to gain fame, Like do

1164
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:36,400
you wish you you like, like, do you ever wish

1165
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:43,239
you hadn't nentwered into the public eye or or I'm

1166
00:59:44,159 --> 00:59:46,559
become famous? Is it like a blessing or is that

1167
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:48,079
a curse? Or is it something?

1168
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,599
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1169
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: Hm, I mean you only became.

1170
00:59:55,199 --> 00:59:56,639
Speaker 1: Because I was right. I was like if I could,

1171
00:59:57,239 --> 00:59:59,280
I could just I can ride this to the top.

1172
00:59:59,519 --> 01:00:03,199
Like I think for sure, becoming somewhat famous has been

1173
01:00:03,199 --> 01:00:06,039
a total surprise, like nothing that I would never have

1174
01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:10,960
expected that the decision that I made in life, and

1175
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,679
I would say, to be honest in my case, except

1176
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:18,079
for the time and the family part, which sometimes is

1177
01:00:18,079 --> 01:00:20,880
a challenge, like because I would say, on the whole,

1178
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,559
it's actually been amazing because the things that I do

1179
01:00:23,679 --> 01:00:25,559
and the things that I care about, I really care

1180
01:00:25,599 --> 01:00:28,800
about them. And so for me, the possibility of having

1181
01:00:29,159 --> 01:00:32,239
more of a reach in order to get that out there,

1182
01:00:32,239 --> 01:00:34,679
it's like, wow, that is so cool, like so amazing.

1183
01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:37,760
And then also you know, living my little life in

1184
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,440
my very secluded way and carving in my workshop is great.

1185
01:00:41,519 --> 01:00:44,239
But you know, I in that context, you know, I

1186
01:00:44,239 --> 01:00:47,960
didn't get to meet Stephen Stephen, or greg or Jordan

1187
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,000
Peterson or all the people that I'm able to meet,

1188
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,119
And so for me, it's been amazing, Like this has

1189
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:54,480
been like an adventure where I'm like, oh, you know,

1190
01:00:54,559 --> 01:00:57,000
I'm talking to Russell Brand, Like why am I talking

1191
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,960
to Russell Brand? It's the most ridiculous thing in the world.

1192
01:01:00,239 --> 01:01:02,079
But it was like there's been these moments where it's.

1193
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,639
Speaker 2: Like with Russell mostly listening to us, Russell's could talk.

1194
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:09,960
He gets these like reveries. He's amazing, He's so incandescent.

1195
01:01:10,719 --> 01:01:12,559
I feel a lot the same way. I mean, I

1196
01:01:13,079 --> 01:01:16,000
had some luck younger. I mean for me, one of

1197
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,320
the things that's weird is it's indistinguishable. I mean, my

1198
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,360
natural instincts that is quite commercial. I write big thrillers.

1199
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,679
I write big thriller you know, screenplays, and so it's

1200
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:28,360
indistinguishable for me to have a successful career, with me

1201
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,360
making more money and me having more fame, they're all

1202
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,760
kind of tied up in each other. I'd say. The

1203
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,880
one thing that that's been a blessing that I didn't

1204
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,400
think about was I didn't have a massively accelerated amount

1205
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,639
of fame when I was young, because if it had

1206
01:01:41,719 --> 01:01:44,000
hit me in those arrogant twenties, I'm sure I would

1207
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:47,239
have been insufferable. You know. There was a lot of

1208
01:01:47,239 --> 01:01:49,400
getting knocked down along the way, and a lot of

1209
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,199
like six books in and then the publishing, you know,

1210
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,480
a thing with my publisher and the numbers tank and

1211
01:01:55,559 --> 01:01:57,559
have to reinvent myself and get back up. And so

1212
01:01:58,119 --> 01:02:01,559
as it's come slowly in different ways, I feel like

1213
01:02:01,599 --> 01:02:03,880
it's given me a chance to acclimate kind of at

1214
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,880
each stage in a way where where I hope that

1215
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,440
I'm wielding it with gratitude and responsibility. And as for

1216
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,639
the reach part, I love that. I mean, it's like,

1217
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:14,559
you know, so part of what I was talking about

1218
01:02:14,559 --> 01:02:17,159
with following things that interest you. I sort of have

1219
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:19,679
two rules in my life in general. I never want

1220
01:02:19,679 --> 01:02:23,000
to do anything that's not fun. Everything has to be

1221
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:25,400
fun or an adventure. And my time for things that

1222
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,440
aren't I massively compress or delegate as much as I

1223
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,159
possibly can, because it's not like you can do everything

1224
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:34,199
that's fun. And obviously this doesn't involve crises and suffering

1225
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,239
and family. And the other thing is is I don't

1226
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,079
I try and spend as little time possible, and the

1227
01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:42,800
more that I the more money I make, the more

1228
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,400
resources I have, and the more fame such as it

1229
01:02:46,519 --> 01:02:49,519
is that I accrue. I don't want to spend any

1230
01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:52,119
time doing anything that. I want to spend as little

1231
01:02:52,159 --> 01:02:55,519
time possible doing anything that anyone else can do who's

1232
01:02:55,599 --> 01:02:57,840
not me. I want to spend all my time doing

1233
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,840
things that only I can do. And so that sort

1234
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,519
of influence, that sort of kind of reach that you get,

1235
01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:09,280
the kind of power is a real weird word. I

1236
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,239
don't mean it that way, but let's just say validity

1237
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,360
and being able to say, look, I'll do this thing,

1238
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:16,719
but I want to do it this way. It'll be

1239
01:03:16,719 --> 01:03:18,360
more fun, and I want to do it with this person.

1240
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,719
And I'm on a book tour and I think I

1241
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,679
want to be in conversation with a good friend who's

1242
01:03:23,719 --> 01:03:26,159
a big prominent New York Times selling writer instead of

1243
01:03:26,159 --> 01:03:28,519
me getting up and doing a canned speech. And you

1244
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:31,039
get to move in the world in different ways. And

1245
01:03:31,079 --> 01:03:35,519
then the people is the best part, especially when I've

1246
01:03:35,559 --> 01:03:38,400
certainly dismissed the like, oh, I just want to be

1247
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,719
friends with people because they're famous, Like once you're over that,

1248
01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:43,480
because famous people can be terrible and they can be great.

1249
01:03:43,599 --> 01:03:49,039
It's just like billionaires. Some are incredibly brilliant and you

1250
01:03:49,159 --> 01:03:51,559
understand why they've amassed so much, and some are like

1251
01:03:51,599 --> 01:03:54,880
a giant pain in the ass who are egotistical. Everyone

1252
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,599
has all that. But if you can choose through your

1253
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,679
influence and through people's interest in you good people and

1254
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,199
move through the world that way, it's incredible. It's like

1255
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:08,440
you're talking about Steven and Me and James Orr and

1256
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:12,679
Douglas Headley and Douglas Murray and just the people that

1257
01:04:13,199 --> 01:04:17,440
in the fellowship that we've had or these are extraordinary

1258
01:04:17,679 --> 01:04:22,360
people and humans, not just intellectually, and so it's been

1259
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,039
really positive. But again, if I'd hit, if my first

1260
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:27,360
book had been on the New York Times bestseller list

1261
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,039
for two years and I sold the film deal, I

1262
01:04:30,119 --> 01:04:32,440
probably would be a fairly profound asshole.

1263
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:43,519
Speaker 6: I really like what you said about the fire. That

1264
01:04:43,599 --> 01:04:47,440
seems essential to make anything meaningful, and I think that

1265
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:51,320
applies to the creative arts as well as being students

1266
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,360
or any anything that you're really being yourself in. So

1267
01:04:56,719 --> 01:05:00,800
this question has to do with the of creating as

1268
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,920
well as maybe being a student. And yeah, you have

1269
01:05:05,159 --> 01:05:06,199
the fire, and then.

1270
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:11,199
Speaker 1: You have what's the word desperation.

1271
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:15,159
Speaker 6: Maybe this feeling of everything will fall apart unless I

1272
01:05:15,199 --> 01:05:20,239
do this thing and that can come with the deadlines,

1273
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,079
which is a very practical and helpful thing for us,

1274
01:05:23,239 --> 01:05:25,960
the weekly essay. For you, maybe it's what the publisher

1275
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,320
has given you. So just how do you keep the

1276
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,039
fire going and not fall into a sense of desperation?

1277
01:05:34,079 --> 01:05:38,239
Speaker 2: Well a metaphor for this in writing, I always encourage

1278
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,719
people when they get stuck right, I don't get writer's block,

1279
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,199
and part of that is is I'll just go And

1280
01:05:44,199 --> 01:05:47,039
I always encourage people to just write a vomit draft,

1281
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,159
like just get something down, because you can't fix a

1282
01:05:50,159 --> 01:05:52,360
plank page, but if you have something, you can make

1283
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,760
it better. And I've been conditioning that sort of momentum

1284
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,960
for a really really long time, and that fire and

1285
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,199
the desperation can be incredibly useful, like the times where

1286
01:06:02,199 --> 01:06:05,280
I've had I've had to have a reinvention in my

1287
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,559
career and I feel like I'm writing for my life

1288
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:10,239
and I'm in a mini version of it now. Jonathan.

1289
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:13,760
I've been talking about like anytime there's a dislocation financially

1290
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,880
or creatively, you know, the unknown contains equal parts opportunity

1291
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,800
and threat, and the first thing you think about, and

1292
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,800
when you're younger, you think about threat, and it's important

1293
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,960
to keep orienting towards opportunity and to be aware of that.

1294
01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:29,440
Get forward motion, get things down. One of the things

1295
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,519
I decided really early on, and it actually is an

1296
01:06:32,519 --> 01:06:35,280
option for everybody, even though you're going to laugh at me, probably,

1297
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:38,559
but I just decided to do everything way ahead of deadlines,

1298
01:06:38,599 --> 01:06:40,519
to never even have to think about them, and so

1299
01:06:40,559 --> 01:06:43,960
I wrote my stuff way early in college. I'm a

1300
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,239
I'm a year and a half to two years ahead

1301
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,360
usually on my publishing schedule. I just want to be

1302
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,800
way out ahead and if if that's something you can

1303
01:06:52,840 --> 01:07:02,320
figure out and you can do. But it winds up basically,

1304
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:04,239
you know, fun. I mean, I have a book coming

1305
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:05,679
out in two weeks. I'm going to go on a

1306
01:07:05,719 --> 01:07:07,519
book tour that's a month and a half. And if

1307
01:07:07,559 --> 01:07:09,960
I'm behind on delivering the next book, I can't come

1308
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,559
here right and have this weekend. And like, weird shit

1309
01:07:13,679 --> 01:07:15,440
comes up all the time, Like I wrote, I help

1310
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,480
write the opening to the Last World Cup. It's such

1311
01:07:18,519 --> 01:07:20,840
a weird thing. But like you know, to get a

1312
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,320
call and go off to like cutthar for a week

1313
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,119
and then do all this research, like you need room

1314
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:30,119
to also be able to understand as things come in

1315
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:32,159
that you have the bandwidth to do with and so

1316
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:34,360
a lot of ways it's like just make headway, do

1317
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:36,679
get it. You know, a lot of this is your

1318
01:07:36,719 --> 01:07:41,119
own sort of stress, in your own harsh driver. An

1319
01:07:41,119 --> 01:07:43,559
important thing to do too, you know. One of the

1320
01:07:43,719 --> 01:07:46,239
exercises I find really useful when you have the voices

1321
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,760
of desperation, which can be indistinguishable from voices of anxiety

1322
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:52,920
or for some people depression, or for some people it's

1323
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,800
OCD when they're going, take them out of your head

1324
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:57,559
and just sit them on the couch next to you,

1325
01:07:58,039 --> 01:08:00,320
and then you can really contemplate just how in's saying

1326
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,199
you are, and you can think if you were a friend,

1327
01:08:03,199 --> 01:08:05,679
if you're like God, you're always late, like you're so useless.

1328
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:07,719
It's like, if you can really try to remove that

1329
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,199
voice and think, is that someone I should be taking

1330
01:08:10,239 --> 01:08:13,480
advice from? Is that advice I would give my own friend?

1331
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,760
And if you can separate out that voice, and then

1332
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,079
you figure out what's an encouraging voice that you would

1333
01:08:20,119 --> 01:08:22,319
take if you're talking to a friend of yours about

1334
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:25,319
getting on stuff earlier or hitting better goals, and it's

1335
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:27,439
probably one. And this is hard, This part is not

1336
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,319
like I figured this out in college. This is I

1337
01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:32,279
still refigure it. But if you can find a voice,

1338
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,399
an inner dialogue for yourself where you're finding the most

1339
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,800
adult part of yourself to lead the way, so those

1340
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,720
voices come up, but that's a younger voice in you, right,

1341
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,239
Maybe that's you being you know, like for me. I

1342
01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:46,319
was the smallest kid when I started my high school

1343
01:08:46,319 --> 01:08:48,439
with twelve hundred boys, so I had a real scrappy,

1344
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,640
like have to get it, harsh, overbearing voice, and you

1345
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,000
can identify them and then you pull them all in.

1346
01:08:54,079 --> 01:08:56,239
You can invite all of that, and then you figure

1347
01:08:56,239 --> 01:09:00,680
out what's your highest best advice for you to excel

1348
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,520
and unfold and expand and shine, and so talking and

1349
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,800
working with that, like what's your voice. Is it being

1350
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,079
an encouraging coach, is it being a older brother? Is

1351
01:09:10,079 --> 01:09:12,359
it being a caring mentor? And if you can try

1352
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:14,800
and cultivate that in yourself, you'll have something to go

1353
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,880
to and then more and more, when you are in

1354
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,720
the throes of kind of desperation where you're losing your way,

1355
01:09:20,239 --> 01:09:22,359
at least you'll know that it's temporary and that an

1356
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:28,960
adult is going to get there in the morning. Yeah here,

1357
01:09:29,039 --> 01:09:30,640
and then I'm.

1358
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:31,199
Speaker 12: Gonna go first.

1359
01:09:32,319 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, thank you so much for being here. I

1360
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,640
had a question about how to navigate the political because

1361
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:45,239
it seems that there's a story, there's always a story,

1362
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:49,399
but there's a a collective story that it's missing in

1363
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:54,640
our institutions of education and our political institutions and I

1364
01:09:56,039 --> 01:09:59,800
as we we're about to graduate and face the world.

1365
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,119
Speaker 12: I think, like you, you want to remind people of.

1366
01:10:03,039 --> 01:10:07,359
Speaker 5: The story, the story of the West, but everything's just

1367
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:12,439
so politicized today that it's difficult to separate both. I

1368
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,800
guess there was some backlash when you both did the

1369
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,279
Gospel series and you're sitting on a table with Nisprari

1370
01:10:19,359 --> 01:10:22,680
and Bishoparian and it's a Daily Wires, so of course

1371
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:29,800
man Shapiro then his name comes up and it starts to.

1372
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 12: Interfere with your image and how the world sees you.

1373
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:32,640
Where you're just trying at the end of the day,

1374
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,000
you're just trying to remind people of the story of

1375
01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:37,600
Christ or the story of the West, and it's beautiful.

1376
01:10:38,039 --> 01:10:41,359
So I'm just wondering if you have any advice on

1377
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:43,760
how to stick to the story and how to navigate

1378
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:45,279
the political.

1379
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:53,039
Speaker 2: Hmm, if you don't. First, So one thing which is

1380
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:56,479
first is the backlash in the politics. A lot of

1381
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,319
it isn't real, Like I don't have I didn't pay

1382
01:10:59,359 --> 01:11:02,119
that much attention. I was so busy. I mean, those

1383
01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:06,560
are a little further afield from my daily career. They're

1384
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,119
hugely important to me, but I'm not on like reading

1385
01:11:09,159 --> 01:11:12,920
all these comments and everything else, And so we tend

1386
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:14,960
to pay a lot of attention to something as if

1387
01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:17,680
we have to respond to something, and a lot of

1388
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:19,319
times it's like you don't know who it is. You

1389
01:11:19,319 --> 01:11:21,840
don't know if Twitter is freaking out, you don't know

1390
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,720
if that's foreign you know, a bot swarm, if it's

1391
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,520
foreign people, if it's anonymous people. It's just kind of

1392
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:29,960
not real in a way unless it really comes to

1393
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,600
your doorstep, and at times it will. And when it

1394
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,640
does come to your doorstep, if you've insulated yourself from

1395
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,960
the constant storm and drawing nonsense that basically is fed

1396
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,960
by I think foreign psy ops, bad faith players, or

1397
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,600
psychopathic algorithms, if you're aware of that and not becoming

1398
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,800
of them and engaging with them when it comes to

1399
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:52,399
your door in a way that's real, you have more

1400
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,279
bearing to engage with it in a way that's transformational

1401
01:11:55,359 --> 01:11:57,039
and not getting down in the gut or with it

1402
01:11:57,399 --> 01:12:01,279
and getting screamy about it and handling it with a

1403
01:12:01,279 --> 01:12:03,279
bit more grace. I mean. The other thing is is

1404
01:12:03,319 --> 01:12:06,039
I always come back to, like, you know, there was

1405
01:12:06,079 --> 01:12:09,199
a big period in writing which I think we're thawing

1406
01:12:09,239 --> 01:12:12,479
out of and entirely of having sensitivity readers, and that

1407
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:15,760
to me is like completely insane right to have, you know,

1408
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:20,560
some twenty two year old graduate of have her for

1409
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,680
like reading my shit to see what might be offensive

1410
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,000
through a framework. It's just bonkers and so but part

1411
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,560
of how I handled that wasn't like, you know, getting

1412
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,840
up on a soapbox and screaming. I told my editor,

1413
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,720
I was like, I don't want it, and I don't

1414
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:36,720
care about this at all. If this is something you

1415
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,439
they'd just been involved in a very big case that

1416
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,279
legal and other stuff. I said, if you need this

1417
01:12:42,359 --> 01:12:44,439
to cover your ass on your legal side, that's fine.

1418
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,319
I'll read it and if there's anything useful in there,

1419
01:12:47,399 --> 01:12:49,479
as with anything, I'll integrate it. And it turns out

1420
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,800
one thing was like I used a Spanish phrase slightly wrong.

1421
01:12:53,279 --> 01:12:56,039
I have a lot of characters who were Mexican in

1422
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:59,079
in my books and in this book in particular. But

1423
01:12:59,159 --> 01:13:01,199
the other thing that I did, and you can see

1424
01:13:01,239 --> 01:13:04,279
where you could get very reactionary, but for this book

1425
01:13:04,279 --> 01:13:07,000
in particular, what was so funny was one of my

1426
01:13:07,319 --> 01:13:12,079
close friends is a novelist and nonfiction writer named Luis

1427
01:13:12,079 --> 01:13:14,960
Oria and he I think he's our greatest Mexican American

1428
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,880
living writer. He's incredible, He's shortlisted, he won, I think

1429
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,640
he won the Pulitzer for Devil's Highway. I mean, he's

1430
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,319
just a a like a no shit, knockdown writing genius.

1431
01:13:25,119 --> 01:13:27,479
And so what I had done with this manuscript, a

1432
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:29,520
lot of it takes place in Mexico, as I'd given

1433
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,399
it to him to be like, is my slaying right?

1434
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:33,880
Is this? Like I have a lot of colorful cursing.

1435
01:13:34,359 --> 01:13:36,279
And so he'd sort of gone through the book with

1436
01:13:36,319 --> 01:13:38,199
me and was like, oh, this is a great phrase,

1437
01:13:38,239 --> 01:13:40,119
and you should do this, and here's the food they'd

1438
01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:42,119
be serving, and like I did all that the way

1439
01:13:42,159 --> 01:13:47,239
I do research for my guns and ammunition. Right, So,

1440
01:13:47,279 --> 01:13:49,439
as a novelist, there's two things you can't do that'll

1441
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:51,359
end your career. If you get a gun to tail wrong,

1442
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,760
you're just finished. And if you kill a cat like

1443
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,720
the cat, people just come for you and they'll put

1444
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,039
you in an early grave. But you know so so,

1445
01:14:00,119 --> 01:14:01,960
but I do a ton of research, right, I have

1446
01:14:02,039 --> 01:14:04,880
a hacking expert. If I'm writing about hacking, I have guns,

1447
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,640
I have amo, I have demolition, breaching and I treated

1448
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,439
this with a great deal of respect because there was

1449
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,119
a lot of stuff that was there. I mean, I'm

1450
01:14:11,119 --> 01:14:15,960
in California, I'm very close with you know, I have family, friends, community,

1451
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:17,680
all of this. But I wanted to get that right.

1452
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,560
And what was funny was because I didn't have a

1453
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,920
big political statement around it, I was sort of like, sure,

1454
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,880
you can have this kid, by the way, like, arguably

1455
01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:30,319
our greatest Mexican American living writer has already been my

1456
01:14:30,359 --> 01:14:32,840
subject matter expert on this, and so it was just

1457
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:37,119
such a side step from a position of solidity that

1458
01:14:37,279 --> 01:14:40,079
it didn't turn into the political because I was doing

1459
01:14:40,159 --> 01:14:42,479
the things that were based on the ethic of my field,

1460
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:45,239
and that is making sure that my writing is of

1461
01:14:45,279 --> 01:14:47,800
the highest standard, and then I'm checking with subject matter

1462
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,960
experts so that i can have enough very similitude to

1463
01:14:51,119 --> 01:14:56,479
carry the reader across the suspension of disbelief. And so

1464
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:58,199
a lot of ways you can avoid it if you're

1465
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:00,680
not reactive into it too, you can stay the hell

1466
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:01,760
out of it as much as you can.

1467
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 1: And like I think, also in terms of politics, I

1468
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,199
don't touch politics a lot in the stuff that I do,

1469
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:13,079
but I think that it's actually totally fine to be

1470
01:15:13,199 --> 01:15:15,600
concerned by the political, to be involved in the political.

1471
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:19,880
The problem is the partisan politics, because partisan politics is

1472
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,960
just basically team Blue, team red, like it's just my team.

1473
01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:25,720
There's no substance to it, you know. And I think

1474
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:29,119
the thing that has been interesting, you know, and in

1475
01:15:29,159 --> 01:15:35,600
this space there is a kind of space where hopefully

1476
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,039
there are people that are able to talk about politics,

1477
01:15:38,319 --> 01:15:39,640
still have a side. I think it's okay to have

1478
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,760
a side in a conflict, but also be willing to

1479
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:47,279
understand what the argument is, what it actually is, and

1480
01:15:47,319 --> 01:15:49,520
to represent it honestly, and to be able to listen

1481
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,880
to the opposition, because it's the best thing you can have,

1482
01:15:53,039 --> 01:15:55,760
is a good opposition, because it's actually reflecting back to you.

1483
01:15:56,279 --> 01:15:59,119
And so, you know, I think that at least in

1484
01:15:59,159 --> 01:16:01,800
my case, you know, for example, like the connection with

1485
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,720
the Daily Wire is I'm just going to come to

1486
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,319
the Daily Wire and say the things that I always say,

1487
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,039
you know, and I'm not going to change my I'm

1488
01:16:10,039 --> 01:16:11,720
not going to now all of a sudden start talking

1489
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,079
about the things that I don't usually care about or

1490
01:16:14,079 --> 01:16:17,560
talk about, and I'm not going to let them that

1491
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,359
they overpower what I care about and what I think

1492
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:23,560
is important, and you know, and I'll walk along with

1493
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:26,119
people as long as I can, and then when I

1494
01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:29,560
can't walk with them, I'll just make sure that people

1495
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,479
that you can see that I don't agree with them

1496
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:34,560
after that, and to me, that's that's enough. You know,

1497
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,880
And people will rail and people will complain, but usually

1498
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,079
those voices are actually not that like like Greg was saying,

1499
01:16:41,119 --> 01:16:44,439
they're not that real. Like there's people that scream really loud,

1500
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:46,680
but they actually if you just if you engage with them,

1501
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:48,960
then you're the real Then you just start to spiral.

1502
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:50,800
But if you just let it, you just ignore it

1503
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:52,439
and you just keep doing what you're doing.

1504
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,199
Speaker 2: Look, I've had this like pretty early days. I mean,

1505
01:16:55,239 --> 01:16:59,800
my communities are exceedingly liberal, and many of them captured

1506
01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:01,680
live in La right. I was born in the San

1507
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,720
Francisco Bay Area. I'm a novelist. I did a ton

1508
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,279
of visible work for the Democrats, trying to pull them

1509
01:17:07,319 --> 01:17:09,520
back and wrestle them back from the idiotic left. Like

1510
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,439
I'm very you know, I'm a screenwriter. Like if I

1511
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:14,920
was anymore on brand, i'd be like a tesla. You know.

1512
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:18,399
It's like I'm very from that world. But so many

1513
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,279
of my relationships aren't, and I've never stood down for

1514
01:17:21,319 --> 01:17:24,359
them for a minute, including with Jordan early days when

1515
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:29,000
all that went bad. But I also didn't move over

1516
01:17:29,319 --> 01:17:31,119
and pick up a bullhorn from the other side and

1517
01:17:31,159 --> 01:17:33,960
start screaming. I was always sort of building bridges. But

1518
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,119
like me, going on Daily Wire was huge, Like I

1519
01:17:36,119 --> 01:17:40,079
didn't know if that could have had massive ramifications for

1520
01:17:40,159 --> 01:17:43,479
my career in publishing in Hollywood and elsewhere. I had

1521
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,920
somebody suggest to me that going to a premiere for

1522
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:50,479
a Daily Wire event could terminate the morality clause of

1523
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:53,319
a contract I had with a major studio. Like that's

1524
01:17:53,359 --> 01:17:56,359
the level of insanity. And I've just never treated it

1525
01:17:56,399 --> 01:17:58,239
like it's I said, you know, I was like, that's

1526
01:17:58,359 --> 01:18:00,680
utterly insane. Do you hear what you're saying? It's like

1527
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:04,359
the CCP and I just have not engaged with it

1528
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,640
in some ways. And I've stood by my friends when

1529
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:11,600
they're my friends, and I've showed up and a lot

1530
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,439
of times if you engage and start the fight and

1531
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,119
start the resentment and start you don't understand you need to.

1532
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:20,680
That's the thing that makes it real and tangible. And look,

1533
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:22,760
it might come in a way that you can't do

1534
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:24,760
anything about it, and that's happened to me a few times.

1535
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,920
And then what you have is the grace and ployse

1536
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,960
that you have from not having given into it and

1537
01:18:31,159 --> 01:18:33,840
decided to live in it because it doesn't matter if

1538
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,439
it's not real. The people who get killed are those

1539
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:40,359
people who issue those awful hostage statements, Like there was

1540
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,319
a prominent actor who mentioned that Ben Shapiro is like

1541
01:18:43,359 --> 01:18:45,359
an okay guy maybe, And then there's a star and

1542
01:18:45,399 --> 01:18:47,880
who was like, I'm sorry, I'll reexamine my privilege and

1543
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,439
I'll do the work. And at that point it's like, look, man,

1544
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:53,399
I mean I learned from Frederick Douglas and Mark Twain

1545
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:57,199
you never apologize to a mob ever, especially a faceless

1546
01:18:57,239 --> 01:19:00,359
mob based on you know, deep machine learning learning and

1547
01:19:00,399 --> 01:19:03,359
AI patterns on social media. So if you don't do

1548
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:06,479
the thing that's revealing yourself, then you're screwed because then

1549
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,119
forever everybody knows who you are and where you're located.

1550
01:19:10,159 --> 01:19:14,279
Careful with apologizing, you know, apologize for sure and cleanly

1551
01:19:14,319 --> 01:19:17,680
when you're wrong, but you know, don't ever apologize out

1552
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:18,880
of fear of repercussions.

1553
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:21,039
Speaker 11: We have time for one.

1554
01:19:21,079 --> 01:19:23,600
Speaker 1: We're question should.

1555
01:19:23,319 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 2: We have that my car. Well, we got three more,

1556
01:19:27,039 --> 01:19:28,880
why don't we run them real fast? Okay?

1557
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:29,399
Speaker 4: Okay?

1558
01:19:30,399 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 10: I have a somewhat back to the basics sort of question,

1559
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:35,560
and this is something that I personally have struggled with.

1560
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,520
I think a lot of liberal.

1561
01:19:37,399 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 1: Arts students struggle with this.

1562
01:19:39,199 --> 01:19:41,640
Speaker 10: Not all, but I think one of the problems that

1563
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:47,000
we have coming with such a very general background and

1564
01:19:47,039 --> 01:19:50,279
an interest in like so many things, it's very hard

1565
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:53,279
to pin down what you want to do, like the

1566
01:19:53,319 --> 01:19:55,399
one thing that you are like very interested in, or

1567
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:57,720
like even the several things that like you're very interested

1568
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,760
in and could commit to, like like law term, because

1569
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:05,439
I think to like develop like this sort of this art,

1570
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:07,680
you you kind of have to commit, you know.

1571
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,079
Speaker 1: And so how how do we go.

1572
01:20:09,079 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 10: About like figuring out that one thing or those several

1573
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:15,199
things that are most interesting to us?

1574
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:20,039
Speaker 1: Hmmm? It's hard for me to answer that because I

1575
01:20:20,079 --> 01:20:22,840
don't have that problem. So it's it's like I in

1576
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:26,520
some ways, I've I've always I follow threads. This is

1577
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,359
actually how I live. I So, like, let's take the

1578
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,039
icon carving aspect to my life. You know, I started

1579
01:20:33,119 --> 01:20:36,720
carving icons in two thousand and two, but I only

1580
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:41,079
started doing it really seriously in two thousand, like around

1581
01:20:41,119 --> 01:20:44,199
twenty ten, so you have a huge gap in between.

1582
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,520
And but the way that I function is that there

1583
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,560
are threads that I see, and these threads are like

1584
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,119
they're like little they're they're like the trap door that's opening,

1585
01:20:53,159 --> 01:20:55,560
like the opportunity that's presenting itself. And then when I

1586
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:57,920
see that, I just go and I move in that

1587
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,840
direction and I hold on of the other things like

1588
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,159
I kind of hold on to them. I never forgot

1589
01:21:03,199 --> 01:21:05,680
that I would love to carve icons, like it was

1590
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,439
just part of my life for what is it like

1591
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:11,119
almost you know, like eight eight years or whatever or

1592
01:21:11,159 --> 01:21:14,199
seven years and then when all of a sudden the

1593
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:15,920
door was open, I was ready and I just grabbed

1594
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:17,800
the thread and I just started moving in that direction.

1595
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:22,119
And so it also depends on on on your on

1596
01:21:22,199 --> 01:21:25,039
your opportunities. Like sometimes you just if you do whatever

1597
01:21:25,079 --> 01:21:26,800
it is, if you have things in front of you

1598
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:28,760
that are kind of glowing, even if it's not like

1599
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:30,920
the thing that you want to do, and you do

1600
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,399
it the best with all your energy and all your love,

1601
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:36,760
and it has that flow to it. Yea, you'll find

1602
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,359
your way. You know, it'll leave you and and you

1603
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:42,359
when you once you find you the thing that you're doing,

1604
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:45,640
you know you might thought you might have thought, wow,

1605
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:47,680
ten years ago, I never would have thought that this

1606
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,680
is where it would be. And and that's also completely fine.

1607
01:21:51,079 --> 01:21:54,600
Speaker 2: I think we all early on coming out of school

1608
01:21:55,199 --> 01:21:57,560
worry about this. And one of the biggest things is

1609
01:21:58,159 --> 01:22:00,279
you're thinking too far in the future, and you're thinking

1610
01:22:00,319 --> 01:22:03,720
too globally and a lot of things is the amount

1611
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,399
of things that will change, Like, even if you're successful

1612
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:09,880
beyond your wildest dreams, it won't be aligned with what

1613
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:10,960
your wildest dreams are.

1614
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:11,239
Speaker 5: Now.

1615
01:22:11,239 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 2: It's not gonna look like anything that you want, even

1616
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,520
if it goes well, because there's so much change. And

1617
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:18,479
all you have to worry about is if you have

1618
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,880
your framing right, with your value system right in a

1619
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,600
bigger way, what is the most interesting thing for you

1620
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,840
to do right now? That's all that matters tomorrow this week.

1621
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,319
What's your next paper, what's your next assignment that you're

1622
01:22:30,359 --> 01:22:33,560
going to all write ahead of deadline? Yeah, you know,

1623
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,159
because if you think out ahead, it's like you're just

1624
01:22:36,199 --> 01:22:39,039
borrowing Tomorrow's trouble. By the time you get anywhere close

1625
01:22:39,119 --> 01:22:41,640
to that, you're going to have way more information and

1626
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,720
way more failures and dead ends and opportunities and corrections.

1627
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,880
There's gonna be so much new, more data. But of

1628
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,279
course you can't help to be worried about it because

1629
01:22:49,359 --> 01:22:53,439
you're human. But think, try and concretize it. Here. What

1630
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:55,439
do you want to do right now? What's the what's

1631
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:57,439
a paper you could write, What's a book you're going

1632
01:22:57,520 --> 01:22:59,960
to read? What's a art that you're going to engage?

1633
01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:02,039
And it will consume you?

1634
01:23:02,119 --> 01:23:02,279
Speaker 5: Right?

1635
01:23:02,319 --> 01:23:04,560
Speaker 2: And then even if it doesn't and it's a failure

1636
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,159
you get in you're not interested. That still progress because

1637
01:23:07,199 --> 01:23:09,840
you're carving off an option that's moving into something else.

1638
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:16,359
Speaker 13: Thank you both for coming here today. I had a

1639
01:23:16,399 --> 01:23:19,920
question about the creative process. When you start with either

1640
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:23,479
an image or a symbol or this kind of picture

1641
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,039
in your mind, do you know that it's going to

1642
01:23:26,039 --> 01:23:29,960
be something much larger immediately? Is it sort of does

1643
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:31,960
it sort of marinate until it comes to fruition?

1644
01:23:32,039 --> 01:23:32,439
Speaker 2: How does that?

1645
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,239
Speaker 13: How do you go from this this interesting snippet to

1646
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:39,159
a larger project? And do you know that it's going

1647
01:23:39,199 --> 01:23:41,119
to succeed or if it am I just kind of

1648
01:23:41,199 --> 01:23:42,039
languish on its own.

1649
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: Those of you.

1650
01:23:51,359 --> 01:23:54,239
Speaker 2: I used to have a quicker cycle of like idea

1651
01:23:54,319 --> 01:23:56,239
to go like. One of the benefits that I had

1652
01:23:56,399 --> 01:23:59,000
was I didn't have a break between, Like I remember

1653
01:23:59,039 --> 01:24:00,439
the first time I want to write a play, I'm like,

1654
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:02,800
let me just start writing a play. And I remember

1655
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,159
the first job I got in TV, which wasn't really

1656
01:24:05,199 --> 01:24:09,159
a job. I was translating and counting animated mouth flaps

1657
01:24:09,199 --> 01:24:13,199
for Dragon Ball Z and matching English words into a

1658
01:24:13,239 --> 01:24:16,760
badly translated Japanese script that was largely perverse. So we

1659
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,520
had to get it around the sensors right because there'd

1660
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:22,439
be like an old guy grabbing a girl's ass and

1661
01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:24,079
I'd have to be like, oh, let me brush that

1662
01:24:24,159 --> 01:24:26,640
twig off your dress. So it was like but the

1663
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:28,840
first job I had, I was literally like on the

1664
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,560
plane with the producer flying to the studio in Fort

1665
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,399
Worth reading a book about how to format screenplays right,

1666
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:39,760
so that the movement was so fast. I just was like,

1667
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:41,479
let me go and try it. Let me go and

1668
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:45,199
try it. And when you're talking about which ideas take,

1669
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:47,319
I think part of it was I used to move

1670
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:49,800
quicker into it, Like I'd have an idea it'd be

1671
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:51,720
a book. I'd put all my energy in and go,

1672
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,840
and as I get older, it's very interesting. I've just

1673
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,399
been observing this in a very significant way lately. I

1674
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,720
have some where I think, oh my god, that's the

1675
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:04,199
next book, and I'll flesh out four or five pages

1676
01:25:04,239 --> 01:25:06,199
of notes and I'll sit on it and give it

1677
01:25:06,279 --> 01:25:09,640
more time, and it'll it's almost like stagnan. I never

1678
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:11,439
used to do this. I used to anything that I

1679
01:25:11,479 --> 01:25:13,880
was aimed at next I would just do. And I'm

1680
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,239
giving a lot more time for breathing. And I just

1681
01:25:16,319 --> 01:25:19,119
got into a situation with the manuscript I'm working on

1682
01:25:19,159 --> 01:25:21,560
now it's like this will be my twenty six or

1683
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:26,640
twenty seventh where I wrote into it thirty percent and

1684
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:30,000
then recognize that the entire ending and direction I was

1685
01:25:30,039 --> 01:25:32,600
going to go isn't what I want. And I haven't

1686
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:34,479
had that since like one of my first books. And

1687
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:38,319
so there's a weird freedom again that's happening now where

1688
01:25:38,319 --> 01:25:41,119
I'm slowing in the creative process to take a lot

1689
01:25:41,159 --> 01:25:43,760
more time to try and like measure twice and cut once.

1690
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:46,399
That has been a natural process, and I think that

1691
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:48,319
part of it is when you first get an idea,

1692
01:25:49,239 --> 01:25:51,680
if it grabs you, you go with it right. It's

1693
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,159
like being carried by the way in an undertow almost.

1694
01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:57,760
But also if you write things down, you can see

1695
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,800
if they continue to live and yield right. A lot

1696
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,239
of times when I think of a story, it's like

1697
01:26:03,279 --> 01:26:05,279
when you first lay down on a towel on the

1698
01:26:05,319 --> 01:26:07,600
beach and it's all uncomfortable and lumpy, and you kind

1699
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,399
of have to adjust yourself into it. There's a form

1700
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,279
that the story needs to take. And if you can

1701
01:26:13,319 --> 01:26:15,159
think about it when you have some notes, you can

1702
01:26:15,199 --> 01:26:18,079
see if you can if your mind's continuing to masticate

1703
01:26:18,119 --> 01:26:20,279
on the idea and settle it in more and more.

1704
01:26:21,159 --> 01:26:23,239
And that's really worth doing to write down a bunch

1705
01:26:23,279 --> 01:26:25,960
of notes and see are you compelled to return to

1706
01:26:26,079 --> 01:26:28,760
it and to adjust it and to get into it further,

1707
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:31,119
and is it living and breathing? And this other thing

1708
01:26:31,199 --> 01:26:33,039
might be four or five pages of bullet points that

1709
01:26:33,079 --> 01:26:34,920
you're like, Eh, there's no there there.

1710
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:40,159
Speaker 14: Yeah, thank you both. I was wondering if you could

1711
01:26:40,159 --> 01:26:45,319
speak to this idea that an artist should maybe create

1712
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:48,079
what they're interested in, as opposed to catering to an audience.

1713
01:26:48,119 --> 01:26:49,880
If you think that's accurate, or if you should cater

1714
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:52,239
somewhat to an audience. And then if you think that,

1715
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:56,560
like the retelling of old stories, insofar as that pertains

1716
01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:00,000
to the previous question, is something that should be considered.

1717
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely. I mean I have a different perspective

1718
01:27:04,359 --> 01:27:07,520
on art in general, which is that I really do

1719
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:12,119
think that art should be useful. That That's why one

1720
01:27:12,119 --> 01:27:13,680
of the reason why I became an icon corver was

1721
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:17,720
because there was something missing in the idea of understanding

1722
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:20,720
art as a performer and a public that was in

1723
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:25,720
some ways alienating, because there's a sense in which you're

1724
01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:29,880
creating something that doesn't actually participate in the life of

1725
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:33,239
the person. It's like a diversion or a distraction. Entertainment

1726
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:37,399
write that image. There's nothing wrong with entertainment, it's fine,

1727
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:41,000
but there was something about how I wanted the line

1728
01:27:41,199 --> 01:27:45,560
the connection to be far deeper, and realizing that in fact,

1729
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,359
I wanted more an art that was like making a

1730
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:51,279
chair for someone, where it's like, well, you make a

1731
01:27:51,399 --> 01:27:53,359
chair so that people can sit in it and it

1732
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:57,479
participates in their life. And that's how I entered into

1733
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,039
icon icon carving was because I wanted the line to

1734
01:28:01,119 --> 01:28:04,039
be set. I wanted to make an object that someone

1735
01:28:04,079 --> 01:28:07,560
will take and will be their patron saint, that is

1736
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:09,760
that they were given to when they're baptized, or like

1737
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:11,920
a cross that a priest wears, and that it's just

1738
01:28:12,039 --> 01:28:14,079
part of their life and it and it doesn't have

1739
01:28:14,119 --> 01:28:17,319
that that that structure of the of the the artist

1740
01:28:17,399 --> 01:28:20,760
and the public that is is actually very modern, Like

1741
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,640
it's a very it's in some ways it's quite a

1742
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:28,079
recent recent recent idea. Like fictional stories in the past

1743
01:28:28,159 --> 01:28:30,239
or in the Middle Ages, you know, there would be

1744
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:33,119
they would still be participative in the sense that you'd

1745
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:35,199
have a tributeur that would come and would like tell

1746
01:28:35,239 --> 01:28:38,000
the story and and it would engage people into it.

1747
01:28:38,039 --> 01:28:41,439
There was this whole participative sense. Even our idea of

1748
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:44,119
the public right, we don't we don't have like even

1749
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:47,000
or in Shakespeare's days, where we don't have the idea

1750
01:28:47,039 --> 01:28:49,720
that the public can like kick the people off stage,

1751
01:28:50,279 --> 01:28:52,239
that we can yell them down, that we can like

1752
01:28:52,399 --> 01:28:55,479
make them stop because they suck. Like we don't have that.

1753
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:57,960
I know, like where there's like the polite public. It's

1754
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:04,600
it's like this pure like alienated, you know, passive public right.

1755
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:06,119
And I'm saying I want to be careful I'm not

1756
01:29:06,159 --> 01:29:07,920
saying that that is wrong or whatever. I'm just saying

1757
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:11,479
that's not what I wanted. So as I come towards storytelling,

1758
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:14,520
I have the same approach, which is I want to

1759
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:18,479
tell stories that are that will enter into people's lives

1760
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:21,159
and will become part of their life. And that's why

1761
01:29:21,199 --> 01:29:24,199
the first my first tendency is to say, can I

1762
01:29:24,359 --> 01:29:29,319
grab things in memory that are anchors for identity, and

1763
01:29:29,359 --> 01:29:31,680
now can I represent them in a way that is

1764
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:35,439
fresh and alive and that people can re enter into them.

1765
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:38,720
So even when I think about the entertainment part of it,

1766
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:40,720
which is like, you know, i'd say I'm writing a

1767
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:44,560
graphic novel series, like the graphic novel series is for me,

1768
01:29:45,159 --> 01:29:47,600
is something like, yes, it's going to be entertaining and

1769
01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:50,680
fun for your seventeen year old, you know guy that's

1770
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:54,800
looking for a kind of adventure story. But everything about

1771
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,359
it is trying to re anchor you back into memory

1772
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:02,600
and become a a track for thinking and for and

1773
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,640
for identification. So that's been my like, that's been my

1774
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:08,000
approach to storytelling. And I don't think it's the it's

1775
01:30:08,039 --> 01:30:10,319
the only one, but at least at this moment in

1776
01:30:10,359 --> 01:30:12,199
my life. It's the only thing that makes me care

1777
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:15,840
about storytelling, and so like that's why Greg and I like,

1778
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:17,560
if we're going to do something together. For me, it

1779
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,680
was like, well, let's do Genesis, because it's like if

1780
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:22,920
we could do if we could pull that off, like

1781
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:27,640
if we could create a narratively compelling retelling of the

1782
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:31,079
of creation and the Fall and and canaan able, I mean,

1783
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:33,960
can you imagine this in some ways the service we

1784
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:37,159
would be rendering Western civilization, Like it sounds like, it

1785
01:30:37,239 --> 01:30:40,119
sounds like it's cocky, but really, like I did believe that.

1786
01:30:40,119 --> 01:30:42,119
It's like that's what Milton was able to do, right,

1787
01:30:42,159 --> 01:30:44,319
Milton was able to do that, and there are very

1788
01:30:44,319 --> 01:30:45,800
few people that have been able to do it. So

1789
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:47,560
I'm like, man, if we could pull that off, that'd

1790
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,640
be an amazing thing. And so I don't only see

1791
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:53,279
it as oh, well, we'll keep people happy, we'll divert

1792
01:30:53,319 --> 01:30:55,600
them will like it's be entertainment. No, I think it's

1793
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:57,399
like it's really going to the core.

1794
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:00,600
Speaker 2: I can answer this from the more or I think

1795
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:03,960
I'm more consistently in touch with the commercial side of things.

1796
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:07,960
And what's interesting is my advice holds. But for slightly

1797
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:10,319
different reasons. There's a lot of people who say, like,

1798
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,319
right after the Da Vinci Code came out with Dan Brown, right,

1799
01:31:13,359 --> 01:31:18,199
there's this glot of everybody writing symbology texts, right, or

1800
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:24,119
you know, secret society stuff. By the time you write that, right,

1801
01:31:24,399 --> 01:31:27,000
that's a year, year and a half, two years. Then

1802
01:31:27,039 --> 01:31:29,560
a book needs a year lead time on publication. You

1803
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:32,039
don't even know where you are. And one of the

1804
01:31:32,079 --> 01:31:33,600
things is I sat next to a woman on the

1805
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:37,159
flight out here who's a pretty renowned comedian, but she's

1806
01:31:37,199 --> 01:31:39,960
just switching over and doing some writing a pilot, and

1807
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,000
she was talking about like, well, how do you do it?

1808
01:31:42,039 --> 01:31:44,600
And what do you want? And everyone's you always hear

1809
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:47,199
this in Hollywood, right, everyone's buying stuff that's like this.

1810
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:49,439
And I said, none of them have any idea what

1811
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:53,239
they want, Like there's no version under which you know,

1812
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:57,119
somebody thought that what we really need is a rap

1813
01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:00,439
opera about Hamilton and that that's going to take over

1814
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,479
the world. Nobody thought that like a magic school for

1815
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:06,920
like you know, little kids. I mean, Scholastic bought that

1816
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:09,920
book for like nothing. It was like educationally, right, they're

1817
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:13,560
not a big commercial house. There's a judge who famously

1818
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:16,239
remarked about pornography like, I don't you know what's the

1819
01:32:16,239 --> 01:32:18,199
definition of pornography? I don't know, but I know when

1820
01:32:18,239 --> 01:32:21,439
I see it. And there is this notion that, like

1821
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:26,039
you're going into this collective being, like like publishing or Hollywood,

1822
01:32:26,079 --> 01:32:28,760
that anybody knows anything. There's a very famous line by

1823
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:32,680
William Goldman, who's the pre eminent screenwriter, a butcher, casting

1824
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:34,680
The Sun Dance Kid at Marathon Man. He says, nobody

1825
01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:38,279
knows anything. That's the lesson about Hollywood. And so to

1826
01:32:38,319 --> 01:32:41,439
try to anticipate market or to guess or to say, oh,

1827
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,640
what's selling right now, or quirky medical shows like House

1828
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:48,920
that might not be aligned with your inner pattern, which

1829
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:51,079
means you might not be able to do that brilliantly.

1830
01:32:51,279 --> 01:32:53,159
And the one thing you're going to have as an

1831
01:32:53,239 --> 01:32:56,079
artist or as anything that you are, as an engineer,

1832
01:32:56,119 --> 01:32:58,600
as a vat, as a doctor, as a diagnostician, pick

1833
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:02,199
your field, is that when it's aligned with you, when

1834
01:33:02,239 --> 01:33:05,840
it resonates with you, you have something to say or to

1835
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,279
give that only you can say or give. And that's

1836
01:33:08,359 --> 01:33:11,000
profoundly true if you're an artist and if you're trying

1837
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:15,439
to go apply it to you know, some formula of

1838
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:18,279
what's going to sell two years from now. When something

1839
01:33:18,279 --> 01:33:21,680
gets made, you just can't even anticipate it. And all

1840
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,079
the successes that come between now and then are going

1841
01:33:24,159 --> 01:33:26,680
to be surprising from things that are made that are undeniable.

1842
01:33:27,199 --> 01:33:31,640
And so I would say, again, my own esthetic happens

1843
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,560
to be fairly commercial. But when I'm writing, I'm writing

1844
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:37,399
to write the best possible version of it. And I'm

1845
01:33:37,399 --> 01:33:40,920
going to talk about this a little bit tomorrow about

1846
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:44,159
you know, what does it mean to be commercial versus literary?

1847
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:47,039
But the best version and so, And what that doesn't

1848
01:33:47,079 --> 01:33:49,079
mean is that you can be urcane and you can

1849
01:33:49,119 --> 01:33:50,600
be cute, and you can be inside, and you can

1850
01:33:50,640 --> 01:33:52,199
be snide, and you can be intellectual, and you can

1851
01:33:52,199 --> 01:33:54,800
make a work that's impenetrable. Right. What you want is

1852
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:57,520
to write something that's accessible. But the best version of

1853
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:00,479
writing is where it's accessible to everyone high or low,

1854
01:34:01,039 --> 01:34:04,119
and you're not playing games to show how smart you are, Like,

1855
01:34:04,159 --> 01:34:06,079
I never want me as the novelist to be what

1856
01:34:06,119 --> 01:34:07,920
people are thinking when they're reading a story. I want

1857
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:10,159
them to be thinking about the story. And so in

1858
01:34:10,199 --> 01:34:13,399
that way, I'm making sure that I'm guiding and in

1859
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:15,880
conversation with readers in a way that brings them along.

1860
01:34:16,359 --> 01:34:17,840
But they don't know what they We don't know what

1861
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,000
we want. None of us know what we want right.

1862
01:34:20,039 --> 01:34:22,119
So to take it from readers who say, I'd really

1863
01:34:22,119 --> 01:34:24,600
love if Orphan X, you know went to the moon,

1864
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:26,479
It's like, no, you don't. You have no idea what

1865
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:29,760
you want right Like, you like it and you're engaged

1866
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:33,199
with it because I'm showing you something that you didn't

1867
01:34:33,199 --> 01:34:35,920
think of yourself, so you don't want to seed to that.

1868
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:41,199
Speaker 3: Well, this is in really a wonderful conversation. Thank you

1869
01:34:41,239 --> 01:34:44,159
for sharing your friendship and your passion and your stories

1870
01:34:44,199 --> 01:34:48,359
of us. In closing, I just want to say how

1871
01:34:48,359 --> 01:34:51,239
honored we are at Rolston College to have both of

1872
01:34:51,279 --> 01:34:55,560
you here, not only as guests, as speakers, but really

1873
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:57,960
sincerely as friends. You both have given so much to

1874
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:02,199
this little fledgling institution, and I think, speaking as an

1875
01:35:02,239 --> 01:35:05,119
actress or writer, myself, a story maker, or someone who's

1876
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:09,039
so desperately clung to this idea that stories matter. The

1877
01:35:09,119 --> 01:35:13,039
story of Ralston College comes at a time that I

1878
01:35:13,079 --> 01:35:16,359
think the world is ready to hear it, and I'm

1879
01:35:16,399 --> 01:35:19,600
curious from your perspectives, if you could leave with us

1880
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:24,800
as a final thought, what does displace this endeavor? What

1881
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:26,680
does Ralston mean to you? And what do you think

1882
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:27,880
it has to give to the world.

1883
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:33,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think there really is a confluence

1884
01:35:33,119 --> 01:35:36,680
of moments and things happening in the world in general,

1885
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:41,199
and I think Ralston is stepping into that exactly at

1886
01:35:41,199 --> 01:35:43,760
the right time. I think right now is the right time.

1887
01:35:44,279 --> 01:35:48,079
And the thing is that because it's something like what

1888
01:35:48,119 --> 01:35:52,399
Greg said, the idea is that the luminary is invisible

1889
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:56,399
to most people, the thing that is actually going to

1890
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:59,279
be the seed that will bear fruit in the future.

1891
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:02,880
There only it's like it appears as this small light

1892
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:06,159
and you need a certain kind of perception and a

1893
01:36:06,239 --> 01:36:08,720
kind of intuition to see that that's the thing that

1894
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,560
is going to And when I come here and when

1895
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:13,960
I heard about the way that Ralston's doing things, whether

1896
01:36:14,039 --> 01:36:16,720
it's the culture that they're setting up with you, whether

1897
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:19,479
it's the pedagogy, whether it is the way in which

1898
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:22,560
they're structuring what you're learning and in what order and

1899
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:24,840
how they're doing it by bringing you to Greece and

1900
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:29,319
to do that, I personally immediately perceive that this is

1901
01:36:29,760 --> 01:36:33,600
a life giving thing, that it is something which will

1902
01:36:34,079 --> 01:36:36,840
bear fruit in the future. And my vision is that,

1903
01:36:37,119 --> 01:36:40,239
you know, Rawlston now is this little thing with like

1904
01:36:40,319 --> 01:36:43,960
twenty something studid, but that this way of thinking and

1905
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:49,119
of doing will will yield. So because of that and

1906
01:36:49,159 --> 01:36:52,079
because I can see like and it's partly one of

1907
01:36:52,159 --> 01:36:54,239
the things that makes me see that is also the

1908
01:36:54,359 --> 01:36:57,960
quality of people that are drawn to it. Right, So

1909
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,560
you notice you watch like you just have, and that's

1910
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:03,319
to use like, oh, look at this person who is interested.

1911
01:37:03,359 --> 01:37:05,680
Look at this person who is kind of like that

1912
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:08,479
and like curious and coming and moving towards it. Whether

1913
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:10,800
it's the people that are working for Ralston, where there's

1914
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:12,840
the people that are kind of becoming this kind of

1915
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:16,560
network of friends. You're like, oh, yes, I can see

1916
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,680
that this is in some ways almost like a vision

1917
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:23,000
of the future. It's a vision of a movement or

1918
01:37:23,199 --> 01:37:26,239
a new beginning of something that's growing. And so because

1919
01:37:26,239 --> 01:37:29,680
of that, I really, I really believe that that Ralston

1920
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,880
is is a treasure and that it and the fruits

1921
01:37:34,319 --> 01:37:37,199
are not apparent right now. They can't be because it's

1922
01:37:37,239 --> 01:37:39,039
like it's a it is a new beginning. It's like

1923
01:37:39,079 --> 01:37:42,359
a seed but I trust and I can see that

1924
01:37:43,239 --> 01:37:45,479
through all of these with all of this happening, even

1925
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:47,520
in terms of what's happening in the world, in terms

1926
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,520
of politics, in terms of in the fragmentation, but this

1927
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,800
like desire to create a new beginning, I see only

1928
01:37:55,039 --> 01:37:57,640
a bright future. That's what I that's my perception.

1929
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:02,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a conference we were at last year in

1930
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:05,760
London and ion Hersya Lee was speaking and she talked

1931
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:10,199
about Western civilization as a beautiful cut flower that's like

1932
01:38:10,279 --> 01:38:13,760
resting on a table, and she said, our job now

1933
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:17,279
is to plant seeds, right, It's we're severed from our

1934
01:38:17,359 --> 01:38:20,119
roots in a certain way. And Ralston, I mean, there's

1935
01:38:20,119 --> 01:38:23,520
a reason you've used that metaphor multiple times. You know.

1936
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:28,199
Ralston is a seed that way. And part of how

1937
01:38:28,239 --> 01:38:31,399
I know when I'm in the right place or affiliated

1938
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:34,640
with the right place is a large part. It's how

1939
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:40,159
I feel when I'm here. It's there's a there's an

1940
01:38:40,159 --> 01:38:43,520
a liveness that is here, there's an a liveness of learning.

1941
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:47,960
There's nothing that feels sort of stuffed shirt or rigid

1942
01:38:48,039 --> 01:38:50,720
or workmanlike. And to me, it's a callback. I went

1943
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,560
to fancy colleges back when they were still places to

1944
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:56,720
be proud of, you know, and so I I really

1945
01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:58,520
had this. I could find a track when I was

1946
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:03,960
there with incredible professors, incredible classmates, and it's just it's

1947
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:07,560
so absence and when I'm here and the people around here.

1948
01:39:07,560 --> 01:39:10,159
And I came with my wife, who is a psychologist

1949
01:39:10,199 --> 01:39:12,920
and a psychology professor. We came last year or two

1950
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:15,640
years ago, I can't quite remember. It was very similar

1951
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:18,119
for her. There's students she's still in touch with of

1952
01:39:18,239 --> 01:39:22,760
just there's a respect, there's a hunger, there's an a

1953
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:26,439
liveness in the students here. There's an earnestness and you

1954
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:31,239
know that's that's in rare supply, right when snark and

1955
01:39:31,319 --> 01:39:35,560
snide is ascendant to be earnestly engaged, but with the

1956
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:38,640
sense of humor, and there's naughtiness, and there's boxing, and

1957
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:41,319
there's you know, there's all the things that are going

1958
01:39:41,399 --> 01:39:44,399
to be necessary for any institution to keep it revivified.

1959
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:48,119
But this is an incredibly special place, and so that's

1960
01:39:48,159 --> 01:39:51,560
part of why I'm always delighted to come back. I'm

1961
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:53,680
always delighted to be near it because I feel like

1962
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:56,680
one of the best things is when you when asked

1963
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,560
to go somewhere to contributor be of help. You feel

1964
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,960
like it's nourishing, that the whole process is nourishing also,

1965
01:40:04,399 --> 01:40:18,880
and that's how I feel when I'm here. Thanks you,

1966
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:24,520
I thank you, thank you very much.

1967
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:32,680
Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

1968
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:35,399
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

1969
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:38,560
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

1970
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:41,560
with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So

1971
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:43,760
go to the Symbolic world dot com and thank you

1972
01:40:44,079 --> 01:40:44,800
for your support