WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.040 Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:05.679 I'm Dmitia con Tacos. I'm here with Mick Molroy Andy 3 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:11.400 Milburn going on as usual. Start off with, we had 4 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.599 that shooting incident that happened in d C where two 5 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:20.359 National guardsmen were shot. I believe one has passed away 6 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.239 over the weekend. The other one is in critical condition. 7 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:29.480 You know, it was a former Afghany He wasn't he 8 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:31.719 wasn't a command though. He was a translator, right that 9 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:35.000 worked for like the zero units that were connected with 10 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:39.840 the CIA. With the CIA, Mick, you obviously have you know, 11 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.240 pretty intimate knowledge about what you know, what the units 12 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:46.799 were doing there and stuff like that. I saw a 13 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.240 lot going on in terms of not I guess politically 14 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.960 where like you know, the administration pulled away like Eddie 15 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:56.479 and all immigration and versus for like any pending visas 16 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:01.600 for folks coming from Afghanistan to the United States. So 17 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:04.239 there's it's become kind of this like back and forth. 18 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.760 You see it in the veteran community and people who 19 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:10.359 have worked with you know, indigenous folks that helped us, 20 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:12.920 you know tremendously. You probably wouldn't have been able to 21 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:15.519 do any of the things we did there without them. 22 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.239 They're kind of being demonized and stuff. And obviously what 23 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.239 this guy did was abhorrent and fucking horrible and he 24 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:27.599 should rot in jail. But I don't think that, you know, 25 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:35.480 labels the entire community, right, So, Nick, what are you 26 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:37.760 thinking about like that? I know you have You're pretty 27 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.480 tight with you know, you know these a lot of 28 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:41.599 these people and stuff like. 29 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:43.439 That, so you have intimate knowledge. 30 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.400 Okay, So I don't know this individual specifically, and I 31 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:52.519 agree that this was a deplorable, cowardly act and the 32 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.400 person that did it should be prosecuted to the full 33 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:59.640 extent of the law. And now that this young soldier 34 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:03.239 has pass who is simply doing her duty, the fullest 35 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:05.719 ex center of the law is going to include potential 36 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:11.680 for the death. So my thoughts are with the surviving soldier, 37 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.840 the staff startant, and obviously the family of both. 38 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:15.439 It's just. 39 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:23.439 Horrible. I do agree that don't condemn the entirety of 40 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:28.800 the group based on the depraved actions of one individual. 41 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.759 If you look at this year alone, we've had a 42 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.599 service member run a car through people in New Orleans. 43 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:41.039 We had been killed, fourteen people we had another one. 44 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.439 So the first one was the soldier. Second one that 45 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.360 I am just off the top of my head to 46 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:52.560 attact the church in Michigan Marine. The third one that 47 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.840 I can think up the top of my head shut 48 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:59.199 people on a pier in North Carolina. Another marine. So 49 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.800 obviously marble on all fronts, but we don't condemn the 50 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.319 army in the Marine Corps, and it's entirety for the 51 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:11.080 actions of those individuals. So that's where i'd start, And yes, 52 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.000 I'm very familiar. There's a certain restrictions on what I 53 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:18.240 can say the person. To my knowledge, and this isn't 54 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.360 from my bitten knowledge from being in the service, in 55 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:26.240 the in the agencies, just from the press releases he was. 56 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.000 He was an assaulter with one of the one of 57 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:34.400 the main units that we had over there, and he 58 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:39.599 according to the media, ten years he was in service. 59 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:44.599 And I can tell you that that unit saw some 60 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.280 of the hardest fighting in Afghanistan. It was almost NonStop, right, 61 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.759 So even if you look at folks that went over 62 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:52.319 there and came back when over then came back on 63 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.080 our side, these guys never left. So it was it 64 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.000 was operations every night. I would like to point out, 65 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:02.919 although it's not really relevant to this, is this idea 66 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.680 that they were like a walking human rights violation is 67 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:09.479 patently untrue. And if it was the case, then there's 68 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.680 a whole generation of CIA officers and military officers that 69 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.920 condoned it, and essentially we're okay with it because we 70 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:22.519 were completely embedded in charge. So I just find that 71 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:24.720 to be It's one of those things each as you 72 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.319 can't defend itself because we can't really talk. But it's 73 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:33.160 just untrue, whether it's you know, a foreign journalist writing 74 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.680 it or a US And if it is the case, 75 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:37.879 then they should have a they should have had a 76 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.959 DJ investigation, and the oversight committee should be going crazy. 77 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.040 But you know why they're not because it's not true. 78 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:45.879 That's it. 79 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.839 So on on, and I don't know the exact process. 80 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.279 I was involved with the TF Dunkirk and this is 81 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:53.560 long after I got out of the government of helping 82 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:58.920 get Afghans that worked with US out and in this 83 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:03.879 special visa process, which is a law that was passed, 84 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.680 and I think the two thousand and nine NDA which 85 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:10.800 gave the criteria, and I do believe that we had 86 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.800 an obligation to get the ones out that met that 87 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.800 with the strong caveat that they still have to be vetted, 88 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.040 and if they're a threat to the United States, then 89 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:30.800 that would avoid the obligation, right. I think inherent any 90 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.439 obligation to bring you in and make you a potential 91 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:37.480 citizen is that you're not a threat to our fellow citizens. 92 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.680 So I do think what should happen here is they 93 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:45.959 should follow the facts. This could it's probably a PTSD thing. 94 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.240 I don't know that, but if I'm looking at what 95 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:54.160 happened a revolver driving across the country, the ambush style thing. 96 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.040 But again, the fact should lead, or the facts lead, 97 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.079 not speculation by me or anybody else. I don't think 98 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:06.319 there's a problem with, uh, you know, reviewing our vetting process. 99 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:11.279 But I think we should accept that any vetting process 100 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.680 is mitigation of a threat. It's never going to be 101 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.759 elimination of a threat. And that includes us like going 102 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:22.160 into the military or the CIA, or you know, vetting 103 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.399 to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever it's 104 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.160 it is. I think we have a very effective system. 105 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:30.319 There's nothing wrong with reviewing it to determine whether we 106 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.959 actually do That's one side of this. I also would 107 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:39.680 strongly urge not condemning an entire population of people based 108 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.360 on the actions of one. Obviously that's a American, but 109 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:46.560 some of the you know, the flip side not of that, 110 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.680 but the flip side of relooking at who we're letting 111 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.959 in is a lot of these countries don't have records. 112 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.120 They don't actually have what we need to do vetting. 113 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:00.079 Not not this SIV because we kept those records, but 114 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.519 a lot of people coming in from some countries like 115 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.759 there isn't anything there there, they can't really inspect it. 116 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.839 It's might understand. If if that's not true, then then 117 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.000 I don't know why we would have a band on them. 118 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:14.120 If it is true, then we're going to need to 119 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.560 review that. But that because this expanded from this individual 120 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.680 in this program to like everybody coming from you know, 121 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:27.399 is it thirty countries, I would just caution that that 122 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:33.959 should be reviewed. But ultimately, if we can do solid vetting, 123 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.000 I don't think they should be restricted, but we should 124 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:39.920 really look at our processes. I think that's very fair. 125 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:45.920 But hopefully and I saw several people who have been 126 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:50.199 champions start coming out of these groups, and I, you know, 127 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.639 on behalf of them. I appreciate that, because it's not 128 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.800 easy to be talking about this right now. From that perspective. 129 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:00.240 It's way easier just to be the one saying them 130 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:02.519 all out and all that, and that's just not I 131 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.480 think fair, just like it wouldn't be fair. 132 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:10.199 To veterans to base the base are a value and 133 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:15.319 worth on individuals that might have had a psychological event. 134 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:21.240 Yeah, I you know it. Whenever anything like this happens, 135 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:27.000 there is always a surge of kind of a desire 136 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:32.000 understandable in the public for vengeance. Right It's kind of 137 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:37.240 closing the door, the stable door after the horse has bolted. 138 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.399 And yes, the you know, the crimes are horrific, and 139 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:47.799 so everyone feels compelled, of course to say to express 140 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:53.240 rightfully sympathy for the victims. But these are such complex issues, 141 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:59.600 right you know, make you mention that PTSD was likely involved, 142 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.320 It was likely involved. You know, you mentioned to the 143 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.600 scale of combat that these units were in, and you know, 144 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:13.639 I wish you could talk a little bit more about 145 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.639 about the you know, in general terms about these units, 146 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.759 because yes, indeed they were and a degree of combat 147 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:25.519 and for a period far longer than most American troops 148 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.399 could even imagine you know, Americans rotated in and out, 149 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:35.200 but the Afghans and the Iraqis, for that matter, they 150 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.399 lived these wars. There was no escape from them. Again, 151 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.720 you know, every time we start talking about this, we 152 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:44.320 feel compelled to say, but what they did was horrible. 153 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.559 But you know, PTSD is an awful thing too, you know, 154 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:51.600 And that sounds like such a vapid, facile thing to say, 155 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:56.799 But it it changes people traumatically, all right, I mean, 156 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.559 doesn't it? You know, I mean it it makes good 157 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:00.960 people do bad things. 158 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:01.639 We know that. 159 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:04.639 We have seen that, there's no denying it. We've been 160 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.559 you know, on a on a on a on a 161 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.960 different scale. We've all known guys who've come back and 162 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:17.480 taken their own lives as a as a result of PTSD. 163 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:21.240 And and in every case that I've known of, in 164 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.600 the months, sometimes years before they have taken their lives, 165 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.600 they were no longer the individuals that they used to be. 166 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:34.360 So again, I mean, this isn't this isn't just an 167 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:44.480 empty rant about the tragedy of life. It's it's it's 168 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:48.600 a fact that we cannot you know, we want to 169 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.320 feel this desire for vengeance. We want to strike back, 170 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.759 We want to now say, okay, ban every Afgham from 171 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.519 ever coming in. But that's not the solution, you know, 172 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:01.679 because the problems that course, what the things that have happened, 173 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:04.720 are infinitely more complex. It's the same thing with the 174 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.480 Marines you mentioned making the discussions that we had leading 175 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.600 up to to the you know this podcast. The two 176 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.919 Marines who did horrific things and murdered innocent people, right 177 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.080 and you look back though at their create, they weren't 178 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.279 always like that. So what changed them? You know? Again? 179 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:27.960 And okay, so what you know, what's the solution. What 180 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.840 the solution obviously isn't to let these people off. And 181 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.360 there's a solution perhaps is to look, I mean, there's 182 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.960 multiple things, but it's a social issue, deeply buried social issue, 183 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.840 and the answer is not simply to cut off immigration. 184 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.200 And last thing I was saying this, Mick, I'm sure 185 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:45.559 you agree. I like saying that anyway because it gives 186 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:50.399 me some sense of authority. But you know, this country's 187 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.159 made it hard enough for Afghan veterans, the friends of 188 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.960 the United States to come in. The last thing that 189 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.080 we need to do is make it even more difficult. 190 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:02.799 That's that's my opinion. You know, we've deserted our allies 191 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:05.960 in many ways. We've we've raised barriers, we've left them, 192 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.039 you know, not just Afghans, you name it. I mean 193 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:14.000 before them to some extent, the Rockies, uh, and and 194 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:18.320 of course you know the Vietnamese. I mean, we haven't 195 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:23.159 been good about about enabling people who have helped us 196 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:25.559 in these wars to come to the United States. We 197 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.200 don't need to raise even more barriers. That's just my thought, 198 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:30.159 good point. 199 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:34.840 And we have a long history of unfortunately leaving our 200 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.840 allies behind, and and and then the community, you know, 201 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.759 military Intel, Special operations community stepping up. Right. So I'm 202 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.440 in Montana. If you go down to Missoula, and you know, 203 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.279 on a Saturday during the summer right now, now, there's 204 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.399 a farmer's market and you get there and you'll see 205 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:57.679 a bunch of moms, a lot of mark and they 206 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:01.039 have most beautiful vesteras by the way, and you're like, 207 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:02.879 how did you guys get here? Well, how did they 208 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.840 get here? Because a bunch of CI paramilitary and UH 209 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.679 military Special operations vets brought them from Laos when we 210 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:13.759 decided we didn't want to do that anymore. And all 211 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.440 those people were going to get slaughtered a lot, brought them, 212 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.480 brought them over and Vietnam. Right, So there's now there's 213 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:27.279 a memorial UH in Arlington. Not a lot of people 214 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:28.840 know it, but you can. You can google it and 215 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:33.879 find it to our indigenous partners from Lewes and Vietnam 216 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.600 and their service to the United States turned that conflict. 217 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:41.679 That's not any different with the Afghans who put it 218 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:46.639 all on the line, and quite frankly they've been annihilated 219 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.480 by the Taliban for working with us. So I'm all 220 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.480 about making sure that they are sound and not a threat. 221 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.840 I think if they're going to review things now, they 222 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.600 should also review who is helping them, right. So lots 223 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.600 sometimes you get into a status where you can be 224 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.200 here but you can't work. Think of the problem with that, 225 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.080 right So, if there's something keeping somebody from going get 226 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.480 gainfully employment and then we're complaining about them not being employed, 227 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.639 you can see the problem there, right. So, And I 228 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.799 understand there's a lot of bureaucracy and there's only so 229 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.080 much folks can do. But I think if we're going 230 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:24.600 to do a review, if we see here, we ought 231 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.440 to also do a review to how to help people 232 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.200 essentially help themselves. So if they're in some status that 233 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:34.320 doesn't allow them to work, let's change that. Let's change 234 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.519 that and let them work and basically make a living 235 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.799 and not be you know, a burden to others, either 236 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.519 taxpayers or other folks. It's a big part. It's a 237 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:48.480 big issue of self worth. I think we all know that. 238 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.759 So let's let's review it for everything, both suitability to 239 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:56.200 be here and what are we doing to make them successful, 240 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.240 because that's I think in all of our interests in 241 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:06.360 society at large. But again, absolutely horrible event, and I 242 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:08.320 certainly understand and sharing the. 243 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:12.480 Outage big What can you tell us about the program 244 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:14.000 that he was involved in? 245 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.600 So it's it's you know, obviously I don't I usually 246 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.399 just talk analytical stuff. But there's a lot out there 247 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:24.879 on this program. And already it's a sensitive issue, you know, 248 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.559 because it's easy to write about CI stuff and then 249 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:31.120 write all this bad stuff and the CIA doesn't generally 250 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:34.240 doesn't answer. So I want to take the opportunity to 251 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.519 point out that that's not the case. And I can 252 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:41.080 tell you there's there's people in the US military Special Operations, 253 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:44.759 you know, SOCOLM all the way to the top and 254 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.000 the HC all the way to the top that have 255 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.840 worked on these programs and spent a lot of time 256 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:55.639 years like myself, with these programs. They I think, to 257 00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:00.960 put it bluntly, we would have lost thousands of more soldiers, sailors, airmen, 258 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:03.320 and marines if it wasn't for these units, not just 259 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.279 what they're referring to is the zero units, but also 260 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:12.320 the commandos and the other units that worked directly with 261 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:16.080 the US military exclusively. If it wasn't for them, we 262 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:20.000 would have lost Meek and google how many casualties they had. 263 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.559 Those would have been Americans, right And by the time 264 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.080 we left in that really disaster withdrawal, very few Americans 265 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.320 were on the front lines. We were losing, y had 266 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.480 very few casualties, which is why I was so opposed 267 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.519 to just the way we left, rather than leaving a 268 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.120 residual force. We largely got to that position because of 269 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.879 these other units stepped up to the fight and they 270 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:50.720 did so without hesitation, and I think that has to 271 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:55.320 be remembered. Another interesting point for these particular units is 272 00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:01.960 there was never a friendly fraticide ever, and that was, 273 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.119 you know, a unfortunate occurrence in other units but we 274 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.000 never had one, we never won attempted one. In fact, 275 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.359 when I was at the Pentagon, I would be asked 276 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.640 as they did a review of the whole Green on 277 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.480 Blue fratriccide in Afghanistan, and I was pulled in, not 278 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.160 as you know, the policy guy, but the guy who 279 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.599 spent a lot of time with these units. And the 280 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:27.079 question was why. I think it is because we were 281 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.559 completely embedded with them. We had folks that went back 282 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.920 continuously to the same area. And you know, I'm not 283 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.599 saying that wasn't done. It just wasn't really done but 284 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.480 by the military. And I don't really know the answer, 285 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:42.640 but that it's important point and it's actually been studied. 286 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:46.799 So the idea that this person would come here and 287 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.599 then do this is just it's it's an anathema to me, 288 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.279 and it's just horrible obviously for the individuals, but also 289 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.119 for the community and everything that's been done by so 290 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:02.319 many people to try to help these folks get into 291 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.920 the United States. I just hope we review that and 292 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.240 do the right thing going forward, and that's both the 293 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.759 security of our citizens and also carrying out our obligations 294 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:14.319 to those that should be here. 295 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.319 You know, picking up on something that you just kind 296 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.799 of mentioned, Mick, that perhaps people don't realize now because 297 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.279 it's been a long time, but it's been eleven years 298 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.880 since really the conventional war in Afghanistan ended. I know 299 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.079 people are going to critique me for that, but that's true. 300 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:38.200 Conventional troops pulled out basically in twenty fourteen, and from 301 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.640 then on the war was being fought by units like 302 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:47.039 the Agency and by special operations forces I with them 303 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:54.200 through Afghan forces. You know, obviously in the end the 304 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.240 war was not successful, but by and large those efforts 305 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:02.559 were more successful I'm generalizing here than than our conventional 306 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.279 type operations. And that's kind of that's kind of a trend, 307 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:13.039 right wouldn't you agreement? See how I do that? But 308 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.759 you know, the the lighter touch that we have with 309 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.200 more specialist troops, the better we do. Know, you think 310 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:26.839 about El Salvador, you think about Columbia, you think about 311 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.720 the Afghanistan after twenty fourteen, as you put it, that 312 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:35.039 we were continuing the war. You know, we we were 313 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.839 holding ground, We were doing relatively well with very with 314 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.519 relatively low casualties because of our use of indigenous troops 315 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:48.400 and special operations troops. It's a really it's kind of 316 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:53.400 an interesting comment. And yet when we go in large 317 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.319 scale conventional forces, we kind of make ourselves a target, 318 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:03.359 and operating that sort of environment insurgency does require, it 319 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.079 requires specialist troops. People are going to disagree with me 320 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.000 for that, but it does. You know, I think about 321 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000 our time and I was with a conventional infantry unit. 322 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.000 I was commander of a conventional infantry battalion before I 323 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:20.799 went over to special operations, and yeah, we did you know, 324 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.759 of course we I'd like to say we did a 325 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:27.319 great job, and but we paid heavily for it. And 326 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.480 the average battalion going through Ambar back then was losing. 327 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.279 You know, this is no exaggeration, between twenty five and 328 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.240 forty five sometimes higher than that dead and several hundred wounded, 329 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.640 and our gains were very temporary. But then going back 330 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:44.880 as a commander of a Siegure SODIF where we took 331 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.599 very few casualties, we you know, we were able to 332 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.079 have a tremendous effect on the Islamic state. Yes, different environment, 333 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.480 but my point is simply this that that that is 334 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.599 I think an important thing to learn about going ahead, 335 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.200 that that the light touch you know, is maybe we 336 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.160 consider going into Venezuela now that it's that that the 337 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:10.839 big invasions just don't work so well for us, right, 338 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.240 But the influence, the putting in of highly trained teams 339 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.880 to work with indigenous forces, that's worked pretty well over 340 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:20.759 the years, even. 341 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:25.000 In campaigns things did not I agree. In fact, I mean, 342 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:27.640 we obviously have the best, most powerful military in the world. 343 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.359 Conventional forces are what's going to be necessary to fight 344 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.480 win wars, right, But the long term irregular warfare type 345 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:41.359 scenarios of counterinsurgency, Uh, it's it's in many ways counterproductive. 346 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:46.519 It's counterproductive as it tends to build more insurgents. It's 347 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.920 kind of inductive because it's very i mean politically sensitive, 348 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.599 which matters in the democracy when you see you know, 349 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.960 young men and women be coming back and wars that 350 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.440 don't have an end date. So it's it's absolutely that 351 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:04.079 we have the ability to do partner force operations in 352 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:09.279 these long term low intensity conflict although they don't look 353 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.119 so low intensity to the people that are in them, 354 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.960 but you know what I mean, it's imperative. So and 355 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.279 this is now you can see how this is coming 356 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.119 back around on each other in order to have the 357 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.720 ability to do this, you have to have trust. You 358 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.680 don't have if you don't maintain your obligations. If it's 359 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:29.480 simply everything's temporary and no commitment is valid, it's going 360 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:31.359 to make it very difficult for the US to do 361 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.599 significant partner force operations in the future. And not that 362 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:38.759 I'm running to get into the next one at all, 363 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.119 but if it happens, we have to have the ability 364 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.400 to do that. And it really is a combination of 365 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.480 the advisors for lack of a better description, and the 366 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.559 force itself. It's a combination of the two. You can't 367 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:54.319 choose to have like some remote proxy force like Iran 368 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.240 doesn't expect it to be that effective. It has to 369 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:01.400 be the combination which fuses experience, operational place planning, intelligence, support, 370 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.960 all these things in with a unit that's willing and 371 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:10.279 able to have this joint mission and of course about 372 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:13.519 by human rights, just like it was a US unit. 373 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.759 But that's going to be necessary going forward. You never 374 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.119 know what's going to happen, and we tend to find 375 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:24.279 ourselves in more regular wars than we do conventional wars, 376 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.519 but we have to be ready for both. And I 377 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:28.960 think I think this kind of ties the two together. 378 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.119 And I know, I think we're talking about Venezuela next, 379 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:34.759 hopefully we're talking about a long term counter insurgency operation there. 380 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.279 We need to have the capacity in our in our 381 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.680 in our quiver, if you will, going forward. You know, 382 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:44.359 I was I was there when we did the irregular 383 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.440 war formatics. That was a big part of it. You know, 384 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.599 we got to understand that the history of warfare is primarily, 385 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.039 if you look at the majority of them, irregular, right, 386 00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:57.279 So we have to be able to do both, and 387 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.519 one's not better than the other or anything like that. 388 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.960 Conventional forces, you know, if there's you know, if there's 389 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.119 a Third World War, you know, the special operations folks 390 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:09.920 like myself and Andy are going to be I think participants. 391 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.000 But aside THEO compared to you know, the major efforts 392 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:16.359 are going to be conventional, but the irregular wars, we've 393 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:19.119 got to be ready to to fight it. Part of 394 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:23.000 it is having a h a word that you could 395 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:25.640 trust from other groups around the world. 396 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.640 You know. The the other thing that that I thought 397 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:34.759 was very interesting that you said about the low number 398 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.680 of incidents of green on blue and by the way, 399 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.119 for everyone green on blue is when we refer to 400 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:47.440 that as intentional fratricite right from our partner nation indigenous forces, 401 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:53.559