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Speaker 1: The over has to wait.

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Speaker 2: The do.

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Speaker 3: The Buddha, the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the the.

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Speaker 2: The the.

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Speaker 3: The the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the the the the the

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the the the the the the the the the the

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the the the the the the the the the the

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the the the the.

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Speaker 3: Build the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The dop the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the the the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the the the the the

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the the the the the the the the the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the the build the do.

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Speaker 2: The the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the the the the.

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Speaker 4: Alright, alright, alright, alright, alright they like hell if you

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did what's up? Welcome everybody. It's still ongoing, so we're

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still here ready to refute, and today the other Trent,

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who is not much better, has decided to chime it.

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But I want to remind you that this is the

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same guy who not long ago debated with me and

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argued that the Old Testament doesn't teach the Triad. The

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Old Testament saints didn't have a faith in the Triad,

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and multiple times on Twitter before he erased his entire Twitter,

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told me that triad is an Aryan term, not even

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realizing that it's the term that his own Uniate church

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uses for the Trinity. So he doesn't even know that

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in the Greek as an Eastern right Catholic speaking of

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Trent Horne, the term that's used is triad. So this

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is a person who literally has no knowledge of the

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differences between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics on the

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Trinity at a very serious level. So I'm sure he

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knows that there's Philly Oakua or whatever, but this is

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not going to be I don't think to academic of

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a reply. Trent is a pop apologist. As we saw

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in the debate between me and Trent Horn, Trent was

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unfamiliar with a lot of very basic philosophical ideas. Epistemology, foundationalism,

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self evidence, criterion problem, all of those were completely over

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his head. So I don't expect this to be too hardcore.

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We'll see what we've got I don't exactly know where

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he's going to go. So this came out today. I

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wanted to be ready to respond. So like you guys,

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I'm going to be fresh on the scene, you know

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what I mean, And we're going to see what Trent

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Horn presents that could perhaps salvage this position, which it

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can't be salvaged. And tens, if not hundreds of thousands

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of people are waking up to this. If you saw.

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Of course, ap debated the other goober, Trent, last night,

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and it was a disaster. That guy said that he

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believes that Jews are automatically saved. He says that at

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one point, he says, Muslims have the Gospel, kid, you not.

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So I mean, totally vindicated on the insanity of this

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other guy. But again, Trent Horn is not much better.

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Trent Horn, as his other Catholic co religionists point out,

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is actually a feminist. So we're talking about a feminist

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Roman Catholic apologist whose wife degrades and makes fun of

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him publicly and admitted on a podcast that she fell

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in love with another man at her workplace, again cucking

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Trent publicly. I say that not to be mean, but

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to point out that the people that we're dealing with,

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especially in this sphere, usually not. In the case of

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Tim Gordon, Tim Gordon's pretty stout buff dute. I think

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he would probably beat me up in a debate. The

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other dudes, for the most part, the rest of the

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sphere low tea and soy. So that's another element of

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problem that's going on with a lot of these weird, slimy, passive,

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aggressive theology nerds in the Roman Catholic world is full

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of that. That's why Benedict enjoys the gay acrobats at

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the Vatican. So let's get into it. Let's hear Trent's arguments.

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He's gonna convince us that Muslims, Christians and Jews maybe

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you do or do not. Let's see what he says.

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Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of discussion online related to

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the question do Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

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The discussion was spurred on by a debate on Timpoole

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podcast and a debate on Capturing Christian Sianity, where the

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Eastern Orthodox guest used it to argue that Catholicism is false.

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I wasn't planning on addressing this issue.

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Speaker 4: The Eastern Orthodox guest, Trent doesn't want to use my name,

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even though we've already had a debate together. My name

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is becoming like in David Lynch's Dune, a killing name.

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Uh wadeb is a killing word. So Trent doesn't want

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to say it, even though obviously he knows who I am.

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That to me is funny. By the way, if you

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want to support the stream, you can do so super

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jazz right there. So let's see what else Trent has

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to say.

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Speaker 1: Two, Because my colleagues Joe Heshmeier and Jimmy Aiken have

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already addressed this question on their own channels, and I

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try not to address topics other people have already covered,

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but I got a lot of requests to talk about it,

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and there are a few arguments that I can offer

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that compliment what Joe and Jimmy have already said. And

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there's also some objective that have come up since then.

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Speaker 4: By the way, Jimmy Aiken is the guy who says

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that Nestorius wasn't a Nestorian, and one of the video

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clips he says that we now know Arias wasn't as

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bad either, So that's the way you're getting from these gubers.

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Speaker 1: That I can address. So let's jump right in. First,

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I want to be clear that I don't like the

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phrasing Muslims and Christians worship the same God. That sounds

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like we're saying the God of Christianity and the God

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of Islam are identical in all respects, which is false.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's the language that your Vatican two documents use, Trent.

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Do we need to rehearse this again? Lumingentem sixteen Along

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with us, they were ship and adore the One Merciful God?

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Are they adore? Excuse me? They value the moral life

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and worship capital g God, same God they adore, the

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One True God. So Trent's initial objection right away is

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admitting that quote. He doesn't like the term, but the

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term is his own church's term. So now Trent knows

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better than the Vatican two documents. And I would add

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that to thank you to Let's talk God, who found

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the meeting with the young Muslims that we read in

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last Night's Dream from John Paul the Second in nineteen

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eighty five, where he says even stronger wording in terminology

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than Vatican Two's documents about worshiping, loving, and serving the

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same God as Muslims, so Trent does not care apparently

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what his own popes and magisterial teachings say. Trent knows

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better false.

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Speaker 1: The Christian God is a trinity of three distinct divine persons, father, son,

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and Holy Spirit. The God of Islam is, in contrast,

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a single infinite person who has other different attributes, though

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both concepts also have many overlapping attributes as well. It

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is silly, though, to say Islam does not worship the

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true God. Though simply because Muslims call God Allah Allah

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is the Arabic.

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Speaker 4: Word for God, nobody here has made this argument.

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Speaker 1: It's the same word Arabic speaking Christians use when they

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refer to God. So the name Allah isn't the main issue.

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But I still don't think it's prudent to make the

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claim Muslims and Christians worship the same God. You can

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show that claim is true, but you have to qualify it.

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Speaker 4: Oh the uh, No, you can't actually show that that

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name that the it's true because, as we saw in

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multiple streams and multiple responses, worship is a very specific

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theological term, and the way that that God is worshiped

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will be dependent upon how that God says he has

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to be worshiped. For example, a Muslim does not believe

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that a Christian worships the same God as him, because

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from the Muslim vantage point, we are idolators for having icons,

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images or thinking that Jesus is divine. So in their perspective,

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for example, it's not the same God because the worship

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is not accurate, it is polluted with idolatry, and therefore

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it is vain and unacceptable worship. And this is why

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it's forced so many Roman Catholics this week when we

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bring this up to argue that God accepts even the

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worship of Pagans because Pagans, according to Acts seventeen, believe

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in and worship one God. No they don't. In fact,

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that is not what Paul is saying. So let's take

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a look at that. Because I brought that up today

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on Twitter. There was a syncretist guy who had a

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comment saying that all the religion's words of the same God,

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basically making a free Masonic statement, and he was getting

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like two thousand likes and shares, and so I replied

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to him, No, Paul does not say that Pagans worship

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the one True God because in Act seventeen, he says,

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the one that you worship, you worship without knowing the

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point of the passage, even using the rhetorical example of

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having an idol to an unknown God, is that that's

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the one that's the true God, the one you don't know.

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He's not saying that they actually know and worship that

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God in any sense, in any true sense, because Paul

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also says explicitly qualifying that in Romans one, the Pagans

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exchange the truth of God for a lie and worship

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and serve the creature rather than the Creator. In Paul's mind,

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it's either or you don't worship demons but also worship God.

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You don't worship God through worshiping a demon, you don't

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worship God at all. When the sacrifices of the Pagans

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are offered to two demons and not to God First

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Corinthians ten twenty. So this immediately refutes the nonsense that

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just because Acts seventeen says that there's an unknown God,

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or that Paul cites a pagan poet that he's equating

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the worship. Those two passages right there tell you that

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Paul clearly does not mean that both from Paul, so

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Roman Catholics don't care that the other passages explain and

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qualify what Paul means. They just want it to be

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Any worship is accidentally, indirectly, somehow getting to the triying God.

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If that's the case, there's no such thing as idolatry.

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There is no longer false idolatrous worship, because every worship,

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every veneration, passes on to God in some generic, elastic,

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lowest common denominator sense. But as we know from Scripture,

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God insists many many times over that He must be

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worshiped the way He lays down. If you go back

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to the time of Moses, when God gives Moses this

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pattern of liturgical worship with all of these specifications and

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all of these iconographic things like the imagery within the

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temple and the show bred and the incense and the

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Brazen Sea, and the arc of the Covenant with the

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seraphim on it, and the Holy of Holies, all of

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this ornate, elaborate imagery is very particular and very precise.

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And even in that dispensation, I'm not saying dispensationalism. That

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dispensation when someone who did know and worship the True

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God did it in a way that was not appropriate,

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that is rejected. So Nadab and Abaihu being in the

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Covenant and knowing the One True God, worshiping him in

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a creative, made up way in Leviticus results in them

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being killed and their worship being vain and not accepted.

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How much more so outside of the Church, outside of

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the Covenant people would the vain, superstitious worship of the

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Pagans be to a demon and not to God. This

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is the kill shot for this stupid perennialist argument, clear

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as day now. And let's do another reminder, because people

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apparently don't know that is Islam is a religion like Judaism,

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that is predicated on Unitarianism and the explicit rejection of

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Trinity and deed of Christ. Therefore they do not love

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Adoor or worship the trying not. Therefore, as John says,

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whoever denies the Son, Muslims and Jews does not have

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God the Father. Therefore they do not have access. Their

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worship is not accepted, it is vain and superstitious.

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Speaker 1: Wise, people will think that you're committing religious and differentism.

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It's sort of like the claim Catholics worship Mary that

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claim is true, but it has to be qualified so

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people don't think you're committing idolatry. Catholics give Mary the

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respect she is worth. They give Mary her worthsship, since

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Luke one forty eight says all generations will call Mary blessed,

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but Catholics do not give Mary honor that is due

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to God alone. Otherwise, Muslims and Christians both worship God,

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but Muslims and Christians don't offer God the same kind

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of worship. And when we look at the question in

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this way we can find clarity amidst disagreement.

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Speaker 4: What makes this But the point is that you can

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only worship God the way that God lays down. That's why,

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for example, in First Corinthians, Paul castigates the church at

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Corinth for polluting and messing up the divine liturgy and

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the Eucharist by doing it in an irreverent way, and

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thus them bringing upon themselves a potential death sentence by

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eating and drinking unworthily, just like Native and Abay Whu.

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Eating and drinking unworthily makes the worship worthless in vain

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even within the Covenant. Thus, outside of the Covenant, it

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is not really proper at all to think of worship

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in a true sense other than the way that Roman

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Catholics are doing it, to retool the word, to make

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it mean an assent mentally to propositions of the magisterium,

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or to propositions that Muslims, Christians and Jews hold in common. So,

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in other words, it's a stack it up sort of.

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Let's go from the bottom up and say, okay, well,

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look we believe in one God. It's an eternal being.

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It's a first cause those are in common. So isn't

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it therefore the same reference as far the deacon showed

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in the original debate, they're the second debate. The way

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that we go about explaining a type of deity or

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a thing that is not a natural object. It's more

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like a set of things, and if you remove any

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one thing, you don't have the same set anymore. So

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it's like the same with the attributes of God. If

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I start listening divine attributes and I remove one of them,

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even if I have the other nine correct, it's a

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different reference now because I'm saying that I worship the

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God is that is these nine attributes, but not the

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tenth attribute of being on to present for example, Muslims

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do not believe that God is omnipresent. I don't know

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if Trent knows that. But God Allah is not present

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in time and space. He does not come down into

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time and space, so he's not omnipresent the way that

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we think. Allah also is a deity that creates and

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destroys creation at every middle millisecond in an occasionalist sense.

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So creation and creator doesn't mean the same thing as

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a Christian. Thus, even the attributes that many people think

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are quote in common that would somehow make it a

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common reference a common deity, are actually not common. Their

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words are similar, but the meanings given to the words

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are completely different. But really all of natural theology hinges

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on a word concept bait and switch, And that's exactly

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what Trent and I debated, and that's why most people

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believe that Trent lost the bait, even Roman Catholics, because

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Trent taught that the Old Testament is a Unitarian revelation

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and it's not a revelation of the Trinity. Because Trent

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doesn't know what the scriptures actually teach. And what we're

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learning through a lot of this debate and discussion is

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that many Roman Catholics are woefully ignorant on biblical theology

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and the basics of biblical theology.

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Speaker 1: Question difficult for people to discuss is that many people

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have a very narrow definition of worship. Worship is just

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giving God all the honor God is due, and.

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Speaker 4: That is not what worship essentially is. That's a very

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broad statement that you could say, Okay, yeah, we give

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God the honor, but how do we give God the

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honor in the way that God lays down. This is

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why Roman Catholics always argue against Protestants that Protestants are

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essentially failing at worship because they don't have a eucharistic

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altar and sacrifice. Yes, Protestants believe that Jesus died on

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the cross and that was a sacrifice, but they have

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discarded that eucharistic central to worship that's ongoing at an altar,

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and to most pop apologists in the Roman Callic sphere,

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they love to make the argument that Protestants therefore do

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not really worship God. They might have a mental assent,

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but the actual holistic worship, which is the entire person,

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the entire being of the person. This is why the

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liturgy both in the East and the West includes the

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whole man. It's not just a mental assent. It's also

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actually eating God, it's actually partaking of it's bowing down,

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it's crossing yourself. It's all of these actions that are

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including the physical body just as much as the mind.

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And Romancalolics don't even have this. For Orthodox the heart.

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Keep in mind, in the Roman Catholic system, there is

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no noose or heart doctrine. They don't believe that. They

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believe in the Augustinian and Thomistic idea that its body

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and soul, and for them, soul is essentially primarily identified

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with the intellect. So for them, salvation is ultimately an

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intellectual vision of the divine essence. This is known as

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the Beatypic vision. This is why for them, when they

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talk about worship, it's in that context of a mental

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assent to a vision of God's essence. Ultimately, that's the

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highest form of worship. For the Orthodox, that is not

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the highest form of worship. We do agree that there

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is an intellectual faculty in man, but we think that

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as Romans one says, man's heart as a result of

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the fall is darkened, and the heart is not identical

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to the intellect or the mind. The heart is the

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innermost being, the spirit in man, which is why Paul

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talks about body, soul, and spirit. He lists three things.

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Roman Catholics, they only believe the two. So the whole

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man is deified. The whole man participates in worship, which

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is why we taste and see that the Lord is good,

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the fountain of immortality as we see in the liturgy,

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and why the whole body is involved in worship. Kissing, praying, kneeling, bowing.

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All of these things go into the holistic element of

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man being involved in worship, which is because the resurrection

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is not just an intellectual resurrection. It's a resurrection of

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body and soul and spirit coming back together after death. Thus,

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the body plays a key role in the esketon and

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in the resurrected state. These people don't really realize that

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because for them, the eschatological state is an intellectual vision

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of the divine essence. For the Orthodox, there's a new

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heavens and a new Earth, and it's mirrored and patterned

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on the resurrected body that you see at the end

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of the Gospel of John that Jesus possesses. Jesus has

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a new body that walks through walls, and that can

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appear and disappear, and yet he can still eat and

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it still has physicality even though it's deified flesh. According

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to Saint Cyril of Alexandria, that's the deified flesh that

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we're eating in the Eucharist, which, by the way, disproves

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the Roman Catholics in the debate with Father Deacon Antonius,

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because they argue that you don't actually taste and see

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God in the Eucharist, because they're being consistent with their

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Tomistic theology, that it's all created causal effects and not

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the actual uncreated divinity that you're participating in. I hope

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you see this, because this, all of this nonsense the

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last two weeks, three weeks is simply illustrating the vast

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differences between the Orthodox view and these other pagan systems.

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And I will include Rome in the pagan systems. It

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should be evident now and on display for everyone all

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the things that I've been telling you for the last

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ten years. The entire Internet e religious world is able

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to I'll see this that Rome has a severely heretical

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and deficient position on all of these topics, whether it's

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the anthropology and restricting man to a body soul duality

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and leaving out the heart, or whether it is participation

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in uncreated grace with their official created grace doctrine, or

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whether it is the natural theology position that leads to

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the perennialism that they're all end up defending now, or

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whether it's the magisterial contradictions amongst the papal documents which

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they ignore or explain away or just handwave or just

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say it doesn't count. This is the rot of this

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system that I've been telling you about for so long,

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and people are now beginning to see it and figure

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it out, and they're going into damage control. And every

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time Cameron and his goober crew does another podcast and

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another stream, they just keep tripling down and it gets

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even worse for them. In fact, Trent Doherty is s

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saying that Muslims have the Gospel. Wow, if that doesn't

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show and tell you that this system leads to this

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blindness and darkness, there's nothing that will tell you that.

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Speaker 1: Is the Father's Son and Holy Spirit deserve honor. Refusing

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to honor each of these persons as God means a

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nontrinitarian can't worship God. Critics also say that the Bible

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teaches that whoever denies the Son does not have the Father,

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and that Pagans offer worship to demons, not God. Therefore,

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they say, Muslims cannot be worshiping God. But we have

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to be careful about taking a few proof texts and

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using that to answer a complicated question. Zeus and Thor

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do not exist, and if they have any effect on

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the world, that's just the work of demons. And John

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says the Antichrist doesn't have the Father. But in the

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same letter he also says he who loves is born

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of God.

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Speaker 4: And know yeah, but loving is still contingent in terms

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of being in the covenant and having the love of God.

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So just saying that anyone that loves is of God

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is not the sense that John means it. In one John,

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He's not saying that anyone, even a Satanist, who loves

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their spouse or their husband, is of God. That's completely false.

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Speaker 1: Knows God, a person might not have God as a

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covenantal father, but the Bible says non believers can have

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God as the creator to whom they must give worship.

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But before I share those verses.

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Speaker 4: But let's look at Romans one, because this is again

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and I don't think in Trent's video he actually mentioned

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the Romans One passage because it's not a matter of

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a couple proof texts. Thankfully, we actually have an entire

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passage from Paul on the darkness of paganism and that

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they do not honor and serve the Creator even in

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the pagan world, even though they should. So let's take

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a look at Romans one, for the wrath of God

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is revealed against all ungodanists and russianness of men who

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suppressed the truth and unusiousness. So notice that in the

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pagan world the truth is not revealed, it is not acknowledged,

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it is suppressed. Why well, it is manifest within them.

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Notice he's not talking about external reasonings at this point,

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about syllogisms or Aristotle having a really supreme high IQ intellect.

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And that's why he got a lot further than the

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Amazon tribesmen did about who God is.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's nothing to do with syllogisms and reasoning out in

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some Hellenic philosophic Plato Aristotle sense. It's about the universal

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world of idolatry that all the nations fell into after

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the fall, except for the Covenant people who maintained the

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true worship of God, the only acceptable worship of God,

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by the way, and he says that these people had

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a manifest witness to them in creation, that they should

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have come to the conclusion that there is only one

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true God and that he lives and exists and so forth.

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But did they come to that conclusion. No, Paul says,

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they are without any excuse. According to the Roman Catholics,

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they're all excused. Paul says, they're without excuse. Roman Catholics say, well,

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but they didn't know God, but they reason from creatures

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to a creator, so they are given a free pass.

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Paul says, they're without excuse. Even though they knew God,

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they did not honor him as God. Now, I think,

439
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and there's different ways you could exedute this passage. Some

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people might exitute this as if talking about any individual

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pagan at any point in their life. I think Paul's

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talking about the original connection that man had to God

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in Adam, and that all of Adam's sons should have

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had to God had they been faithful. But since they

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felt they are patterned and lived after their father Adam

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and not after Christ. And so what happens then is

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that there's a sense in which back to Adam, man

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knew God and had a relationship with God, but the

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fall led to idolatry and universal pagan worship of the

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demonic and anything other than God. And so that's the

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sense in which at one time man knew God, but

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we have all then fallen from that uh oh, and

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have not glorified or worshiped or honored him as God. Now,

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this right here futes the Roman Catholic Vatican to excuse

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and invisible invincible ignorance arguments, because they're trying to say, well,

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in the case of Pagans, they're still worshiping God, they

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still acknowledge a creator. But Paul is saying that even

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if they acknowledge the proposition that there's a creator, they're

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not worshiping and serving him in any way that God accepts,

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because they actually end up committing idolatry and their hearts

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are darkened. They profess to become wise, like Plato and Aristotle,

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but they end up being fools, as Saint Gregory Palama

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says in the very first Triad, the whole first triad

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is about Roman's one and the worthlessness of Aristotle and

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Pagan's idea of God. Palamas says, did they get a

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couple propositions right about God? Yes? Where did that get

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them nowhere? It's demonic, he says, the initiatory, demonic rights

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of Plato, for example, got him nowhere, and the knowledge

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that he got of God was worthless. So Palamas is

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faithful to Romans one. Trent and Vatican two are not

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faithful to Romans one. They retool and reword it to

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make it be the opposite of the entire point of

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the passage. Rather than meaning that pagan darkness is what

474
00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:28,079
dominated the world before the Gospel or without knowledge or

475
00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:32,400
access to the Messiah, they make it to me. No, actually,

476
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:35,239
there's all this goodness and all of this truth in

477
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,559
the Pagan religions, and we just need to weed out

478
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:41,000
a couple of the bad parts. It's the exact opposite

479
00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:46,239
of the thrust of the passage. These Pagans thought they

480
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,760
were wise, but they actually made themselves into fools, and

481
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:58,599
they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into creatures, animals, idols, etc.

482
00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:05,440
So what's the punihment of idolatry being given over to lusts. Therefore,

483
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,079
God gave them over to skittles. That's what are you saying?

484
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,360
Why because they exchange the truth about God for what?

485
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:22,679
For still worshiping God through idols? For still worshiping a creator? No,

486
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:27,960
they worshiped and served the creature. They do not worship

487
00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:32,360
and serve the Creator. This passage destroys all of the

488
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,679
sophistry of these people. It's so ridiculous that we even

489
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,880
have to debate this, and every passage that we go to,

490
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:45,400
the Roman Catholics engage in the wildest reversals to make

491
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,480
it say the opposite of what the pastor says. What

492
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:51,920
does God say throughout the Book of Exodus and Deuteronomy?

493
00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:56,760
Do not go after other gods? If these people were correct,

494
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,000
you could never go after other gods. No other gods,

495
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:03,880
because all the other gods are just imperfect worship of

496
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,599
the One True God. But nowhere in the Old Testament

497
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:08,880
at all is that accepted, and neither is it accepted

498
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:15,199
in the New Testament. God gave them up to vile passions,

499
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,119
and then you get a bunch of skittles as the penalty,

500
00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:23,960
and then it says they didn't put they didn't retain

501
00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:28,320
God in their mind, So God gave them up from

502
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,480
the cavil saying, well, no, they did retain God in

503
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,239
the mind. Oh but wait a minute, Paul says that

504
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,199
the Pagans are haters of God. Oh but they still

505
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,440
worship the One True God. But they hate him. How

506
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:48,920
do they hate him? That's why these people are saying

507
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,119
the most ridiculous things, like Trent Doherty saying, Jake the

508
00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:58,920
Muslim at a physician, the apostate from Christianity, still worships

509
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,480
in the doors the One True God who is a trinity,

510
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:03,480
even though he rejects the trinity. That's how silly. This

511
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,239
is the insanity of Like, why do we even have

512
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:11,280
to debate that? Like even having to explain this illustrates

513
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:17,519
my point of the endless maze of papalism. This is

514
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:23,760
what you get, darkness, confusion, sophistry, ignorance of actual divine

515
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,159
revelation the scriptures. I can't tell you how any Roman

516
00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:29,639
Catholics who are refuming and mad and seething are literally saying,

517
00:44:30,039 --> 00:44:32,400
you're a Protestant because you're quoting the scriptures at me.

518
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,280
Why are you quoting Scriptus at me? In fact, at

519
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,840
one point in the debate with ap and Trent Doherty.

520
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:41,480
People were sending in super chats that were just scripture

521
00:44:41,519 --> 00:44:46,360
texts and they started groaning, Ugh, more Bible. These people

522
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:50,119
actually hate what is in scripture. They hate the divine Revelation.

523
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,000
Their idol, the Pope and Vatican IWO in the magisterium

524
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:57,679
is their real God. You'll notice the religion of Michael

525
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,400
often is the Majestereum that made your star with jump.

526
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:05,480
That's his God. There God is the papacy. They will

527
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,480
die on this hill to stress and prove and go

528
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:14,119
to every mental gymnastics insane length to try to save

529
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:17,719
the vaticantued documents. Rather than just simply admitting that divine

530
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,079
revelation says the opposite about a thousand times over.

531
00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: Consider this thought experiment to help us examine the issue.

532
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,960
Imagine you're hiking up a mountain with an agnostic friend.

533
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,320
He thinks the Trinity is illogical, and so he rejects

534
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,079
that doctrine, but he is open to the existence of

535
00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:39,559
one infinite, perfect God who created the universe from nothing.

536
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,039
As you reach the top of the mountain and your

537
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:45,000
friend sees the beauty of nature before him, he says

538
00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:48,440
out into the void, thank you God, and then you

539
00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:51,239
look out into the same beauty and say, praise be

540
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:51,719
to God.

541
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 4: Now here's the problem with this passage, and it's notice again,

542
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,880
it's the exact opposite of the way that Paul approaches

543
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:04,039
this question in Romans won. So let's go back to Paul.

544
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:08,559
In Roman's one, Trent is saying, look, my friend, who

545
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,639
is a agnostic opening himself up to some form of

546
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,360
Unitarianism or perhaps Islam, is in some better position of

547
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:24,280
better worship than an atheist or a polytheist. But he's

548
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,960
not because it doesn't matter what propositions you list that

549
00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:32,480
you've got right about the deity, if it's not the Trinity,

550
00:46:33,039 --> 00:46:35,039
as Trent already said at the beginning, by the way,

551
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:38,599
contradicting what he said earlier, it doesn't matter. So from

552
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:42,800
Paul's perspective, the guy that's your buddy, that's the agnostic

553
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,840
opening up to Unitarianism walking up the mountain, Paul says,

554
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:54,159
this guy is still in darkness. And it literally doesn't matter.

555
00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,880
If you get nine essential attributes right, but you reject

556
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,519
the tenth, it's still not the same reference. The only

557
00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:10,199
God is the triad revealed in Christ. That's the only one.

558
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,719
So anyone that is not that by definition that says

559
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,320
I do not accept the trinity, but I do accept

560
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,039
a monad that is perfect. That is the first cause,

561
00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:26,719
et cetera. Right, Aristotle, it's not good enough. It's not

562
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,480
the worship that God lays out. It's not the same

563
00:47:29,639 --> 00:47:34,519
God or referent because there is no lowest common denominator

564
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:41,800
set of propositions that identifies an abstract object or entity

565
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,039
like God. That's what Father Deacon was arguing.

566
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:51,159
Speaker 1: Now, which of these statements better describe this situation? One,

567
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,400
you are friend along with you adores the one and

568
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,199
merciful God. Or two your friend is giving worship to

569
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,639
a demon or some other creature, but he is not

570
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:01,639
worshiping God.

571
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 4: See this is perfect. I'm glad Trent did this because

572
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,719
this right here illustrates the divide between the Orthodox worldview

573
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,920
and pronema and mindset and the Roman Catholic pronema and mindset.

574
00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:17,960
Why is this false? Well, the answer is actually, in

575
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:21,920
the truest sense, the second option. If Trent knew what

576
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:25,079
Romans one said, which is odd because it seems like

577
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:28,559
he's going to have to argue that the agnostic friend

578
00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:31,440
that's opening up to Unitarianism is the first option, right,

579
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,440
But that's the opposite of the way Paul talks about

580
00:48:38,119 --> 00:48:45,280
all of the universal pagan systems and a Brahammock monotheism

581
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,400
doesn't exist. So this argument has shifted from the original point,

582
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,960
which is that Muslims don't have the Trinity and that's

583
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,920
the true God wich Trent said at the very beginning

584
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,360
of this post. But now he's trying to argue that

585
00:48:57,559 --> 00:49:00,760
there's a graded scale. Okay, you can still kind of

586
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,920
halfway worship God if you get half the attributes, right, No,

587
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,519
you can't, and you don't. That's the point. Just like

588
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,079
Arians do not get access to half of God or

589
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,400
get half Catholicity because they agree with a lot of propositions,

590
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,800
they just don't believe in trinity or deed of Christ.

591
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:23,800
Just like Toe's witnesses aren't eighty percent or thirty percent

592
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:30,199
worshipers of God. Any one heresy excludes you because all

593
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,119
heresies in the Patristic teaching are a deviation in the

594
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:39,000
creation of a mental idol. So if you have a

595
00:49:39,119 --> 00:49:42,679
heterodox idea of God and that's what you worship. And

596
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,840
even worse in this case because in Trent's example, the

597
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,519
guy explicitly says, I'm not worshiping the Trinity in Christ.

598
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,519
I am worshiping this Unitarian deity that I believe in.

599
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:58,000
That is a fiction. It does not exist, any more

600
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:01,320
than Trent's earlier examples of a deity that doesn't exist.

601
00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: Most people will find statement one far more plausible than

602
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,440
statement two. Your friend knows that demons are creatures and

603
00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:19,559
that they are evil, he isn't intending to worship them.

604
00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:22,679
Speaker 4: But the debate is not about intention. The debate is

605
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,480
about whether this worship is acceptable or vain. Many Pagans

606
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,599
do not intend to worship the Christian conception of a demon.

607
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:37,159
They're worshiping Apollo or Odin, whom they do not think

608
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,320
is a demon. So the intention of the person is

609
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,679
not relevant in the topic under discussion, which is what

610
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,679
is the worship that God has laid down, that he

611
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,679
expects and that he demands. Nadab and Abai, who were

612
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,960
not worshiping a demon when they offered their own strange

613
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:58,920
fire before the Lord, yet their worship was absolutely rejected

614
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,800
and not accepted. So the debate is not, as Roman

615
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,000
Catholics are trying to shift, it about whether Muslims believe

616
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,320
or think they're worshiping the true God. This is the

617
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,360
point that we made with Kai's post last night. Kai

618
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,280
made a really good point, which was, if I buy

619
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,159
a fake Rolex from the dude on the street, I

620
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,679
can hope and want and desire all day long that

621
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,400
that be a real rolex. That has nothing to do

622
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,320
with whether it's a real rolex or not. Literally irrelevant,

623
00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:32,960
and the topic of debate is who worships God in

624
00:51:33,119 --> 00:51:36,159
each system. It is not up to the individuals or

625
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:39,960
the philosophers of the academics to decide how you worship

626
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:44,519
God and what God accepts as worship. God determines what

627
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,400
the acceptable worship is. God has always only accepted worship

628
00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:52,400
at an altar and at a sacrifice. As these hypocrite

629
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,039
Roman Catholics do every time they argue against a Protestant

630
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,119
they make this very argument. Now they have a double

631
00:51:58,199 --> 00:52:00,719
standard where they throw that out and say that you

632
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,400
could do like a half fifty percent worship if you're Muslim.

633
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,760
Muslims are worse than Protestants on this point because they

634
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,000
do not believe in any kind of alter or sacrifice.

635
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,519
But Trent doesn't know anything about Islam. He's not debated Muslims.

636
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:18,760
He doesn't even know the Muslim positions on the attributes,

637
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:20,840
so how is he going to even make sense of

638
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,320
saying that it's the same position. Really, if they mean

639
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,960
by creator occasionalism, that's not at all. That's the opposite

640
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,199
of the Christian position of creation x nilo.

641
00:52:34,519 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: However, he is expressing gratitude to the all good, uncreated Creator,

642
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,320
even if your friend is rejected.

643
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,079
Speaker 4: So you notice he's already contradicted himself. He began the

644
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:47,639
video by saying that Muslims don't actually worship the Triune

645
00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:51,719
God in the example that he's giving, He's now flipped

646
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,639
it to say that your friend, who is more or

647
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,079
less the equivalent of a Muslim, actually does honor and

648
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:01,280
worship the One True God. So literally, this goofus, as

649
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,599
I knew he would do, has contradicted himself within five minutes.

650
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:08,039
Speaker 1: Amazing to Christian theology. At least for now, you can

651
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:10,960
still commend him for rejecting the error of atheism and

652
00:53:11,079 --> 00:53:14,599
for giving praise i e. Worship to the One Creator God.

653
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 4: This doesn't yeah, but Paul as again, it's like these

654
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,360
guys have no idea what divine revelation actually says about

655
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:32,480
these topics. Let me give an example. You know, I

656
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:37,280
can be a pagan monotheist, right, there's nothing about a

657
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,880
bra Hammick monotheism, which I reject out of hand. But

658
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,960
even if there was such a thing, there's nothing about

659
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:46,039
that that means that that has or lays the claim

660
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:50,440
on the exclusive title of quote monotheism. Monotheism, by the way,

661
00:53:50,559 --> 00:53:54,599
is a very late sixteen hundreds term doesn't even exist

662
00:53:54,639 --> 00:54:14,480
in the ancient medieval world. And so I could take

663
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:22,280
the example of I mean, we listed, we listed on

664
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,559
my debate page. It's over there on the stack of notes,

665
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:32,079
many different unitarian monotheistic so called positions. Right, So you

666
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:36,400
could be a Zoroastrian version of monotheism. You could be

667
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:42,639
a shock t Hindu version of monotheism. You could be

668
00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:45,679
a perennialist like Frital Shuan or renegan On. You could

669
00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:51,840
be a Sufi mystic. You could be a theistic Satanist.

670
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:57,400
They are monotheists, some of them. These are all monotheistic positions.

671
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:00,760
So according to trent As, as long as I say

672
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,800
that it's one God that's the creator, and he didn't

673
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,719
even list any other attributes. But that's a pretty low bar. Okay,

674
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:19,360
So theistic Satanists who identify the reference as creator, sustainer, cause, omnipotent,

675
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:25,840
maybe it's just set it's satan. According to Trent, we're

676
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,599
still honoring the same reference, which is the opposite of

677
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:30,960
what he said at the beginning of his video, by

678
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:31,360
the way.

679
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: I mean, his mere theistic worship will save him from sin,

680
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,000
or even that God accepts this worship.

681
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,679
Speaker 4: Well wait a minute, So now it's that he worships

682
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,920
and adores it, but it doesn't save you and it

683
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,480
doesn't get you in and God doesn't accept it. Well,

684
00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:54,920
the whole point of the debate was worshiping God in

685
00:55:55,039 --> 00:56:00,320
the way that God accepts. There's no other version of

686
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,920
this that even matters. Obviously, we're not going to debate.

687
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:08,519
Does a person who's a religious person think that he's

688
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:11,159
worshiping his deity? I mean, that's they're shifting the debating

689
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:15,199
something so stupid and such a move of sophistry. Will

690
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,960
they think they're debating that they think they're worshiping the

691
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,719
ones you God. Everybody thinks their religion is true, of course,

692
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,119
so what that's not what's in question? That'd be like saying, well,

693
00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:31,639
people who believe that tuplus two is four, believe it's four. Okay, Well,

694
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:33,639
I'm sure there's some people who believe that tuplus two

695
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,960
is five, and maybe they really believe it. But what

696
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:38,760
does that have to do with whether tuplus two is five. Nothing,

697
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:47,440
It's irrelevant. The question is worship. The system defines what

698
00:56:47,599 --> 00:56:52,559
worship means. The system of the theology we're talking about,

699
00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:55,679
whether the Romancolic system, the Orthodox system, Muslim systems, whatever,

700
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,280
the system will define even what the attributes mean. Hentce

701
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,280
why Creator in Islam means something radically different than what

702
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,880
it means in Orthodox Christianity. I mean, they don't even

703
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,039
know that. Muslims don't believe typically most of the most

704
00:57:10,039 --> 00:57:12,840
of the Sunni majority, they don't believe in secondary causes.

705
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:18,039
They believe in a predestinarian occasionalism, even more radical than

706
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:24,519
most Calvinists. So creation means something very different than it

707
00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:28,119
means in Orthodox Christology, where God creates a world but

708
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:33,119
also in plants within that world secondary causes. Islam says

709
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:35,559
there are no secondary causes because you are taken away

710
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:39,599
from Allah's greatness. If you give power to creatures like

711
00:57:39,679 --> 00:57:44,119
free will or causation. That's the Sunni majority. They don't

712
00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:47,199
know this, but they use this bait and switch as

713
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,920
if the same words and hence why of a Mormon

714
00:57:50,039 --> 00:57:53,199
argument is so damning to these people, it's a kill shot.

715
00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:56,440
The same people will say that Mormons don't make the cut.

716
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,400
I mean, I don't know what Trent thinks. Maybe he

717
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,719
thinks they do. I don't know. But the other guy says,

718
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:02,760
and they're basically split on this. Half of them thinks

719
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,480
that more. Okay, fine, Mormon's worship God too, because they're

720
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:10,400
worshiping a god, the Father. Yeah, who's a man and

721
00:58:10,639 --> 00:58:13,639
has a body and had physical sex with Mary to

722
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:18,280
impregnate her. That's the Mormon teaching you idiots. Okay, well,

723
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,800
I guess that's it's a little too far different. Okay,

724
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,480
so what's the standard here? It's arbitrary, it's at hoc.

725
00:58:24,559 --> 00:58:28,599
In fact, when Tomashevsky was asked this on Twitter, he says, uh,

726
00:58:29,079 --> 00:58:31,840
Mormons are just too weird. That's literally his The Tomas

727
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,639
philosopher PhD answer is the the Mormon position is just

728
00:58:36,719 --> 00:58:41,840
too weird. Uh. The Muslim position not that weird. Actually,

729
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,719
the Muslim position is as is as weird. If you

730
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,440
don't because that's just again, they don't know what Islam teaches.

731
00:58:47,519 --> 00:58:50,239
These people have no idea about it other than generalities.

732
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,119
We've spent seven years now debating the Muslims, and I'm

733
00:58:54,159 --> 00:58:56,480
not an expert in Islam. I've seen enough of Islam

734
00:58:56,519 --> 00:58:58,320
in the last seven eight years to see this shit

735
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,480
is crazy, dude, And only an idiot would think that

736
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,840
that religion is synonymous with us because of similar words

737
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,280
and because they claim to have in a braind of heritage.

738
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,480
It's just so childish and stupid.

739
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,559
Speaker 1: It just means you and your friend have more common ground,

740
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,119
and so you can use this to move him closer

741
00:59:16,159 --> 00:59:19,159
to the fullness of divine revelation. And that's what Vatican

742
00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:22,159
two is talking about when it comes to Muslims. Here's

743
00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:24,800
the passage in question that's often debated, but the Plan

744
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,039
of Salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in

745
00:59:28,119 --> 00:59:30,679
the first place. Amongst these there are the Muslims who

746
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,000
professing to hold the faith of Abraham along with us

747
00:59:34,119 --> 00:59:36,760
adore the one and merciful God, who on the last

748
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,159
day will judge mankind. This passage was approved in a

749
00:59:40,239 --> 00:59:42,800
vote of two thy one hundred and fifty one Council

750
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,159
fathers in favor and only five against.

751
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,559
Speaker 4: So what was that tell you? So even at the

752
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:50,519
time of Vatican Two, like the prelates in the Latin

753
00:59:50,599 --> 00:59:52,639
Church were already pretty much apostate.

754
00:59:52,639 --> 00:59:56,039
Speaker 1: It was very uncontroversial at the Second Vatican Council. However,

755
00:59:56,119 --> 00:59:59,039
in two recent debates, the Eastern Orthodox apologist Jay Dyer

756
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,800
use this statement to argue that Catholicism is false. Redeemed

757
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,519
Zoomer and Gavin Ortlund have also take an issue with

758
01:00:05,559 --> 01:00:08,440
this claim. So let's look at some criticisms on this

759
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:11,000
side of the issue. First, even if this passage were

760
01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:14,159
in error, that wouldn't prove Catholicism is false. To do that,

761
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,239
you'd have to falsify a statement the Church infallibly defined

762
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:18,800
to be true.

763
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, Trent, the Magisterium has defined that Vatican two is

764
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,760
universal teaching and that you have to hold to it.

765
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,400
So now Trent is shifting to say that, well, this

766
01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:33,519
document doesn't count, so Vatican two can now have errors.

767
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:36,239
Notice how far Trent is having to bend to make

768
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,639
the system work. And by the way, Trent, it's not

769
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:44,159
just Nostra atat it's also Lumingentium sixteen, which is also magisterial,

770
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,400
and we can look at a moment and see that

771
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:51,079
the Vatican two documents are magisterial as loten even those.

772
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,519
So this is a total deflection, and it's kind of

773
01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:56,119
laughable because now Trent is going the direction of saying

774
01:00:56,159 --> 01:00:58,599
that the Vatican two documents might not even be binding

775
01:00:58,639 --> 01:00:59,639
and they amount of errors.

776
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,559
Speaker 1: Where you'd have to show two infallibly defined statements contradict

777
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:05,639
each other. But no doctrines were infallibly defined at the

778
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:06,679
Second Vatican Council.

779
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 4: Oh, that's not true. At least Michael Lafton accurately understands

780
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,239
that Vatican two is infallible. That means that it cannot

781
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,599
contain error. So Trent is saying that, well, it doesn't

782
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,039
magisterially say that you have to believe these things. No,

783
01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:39,039
but it does. And even if it didn't make that statement,

784
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,360
the Roman see cannot teach error at all when it's

785
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,360
teaching on faith and morals for the church. Clearly, Vatican

786
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,559
two is intended for the entire church. All of the

787
01:01:47,639 --> 01:01:50,440
documents are intended for the entire church, and they deal

788
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,079
with faith and morals. They are also signed off by

789
01:01:53,599 --> 01:01:55,960
the popes, both John and twenty third end Pole the

790
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,559
six from the chair officially for the entire church. That's

791
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:06,719
how the documents begin. By the way, now let's look

792
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,639
at the proof that you do have to adhere to

793
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,880
all of the Vatican two teachings because they are infallible,

794
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,199
and that means that their magisterial and cannot contain error.

795
01:02:19,719 --> 01:02:21,840
So this is immediately going to refute Trent right here.

796
01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:26,800
So here's one. This is the address of Paul the

797
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:33,039
sixth to the audience hall. I'm sure excuse me. This

798
01:02:33,199 --> 01:02:40,119
is the address of Francis, right and Francis talks about

799
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:55,199
the magisterial reforms of Vatican two in this document, talking

800
01:02:55,239 --> 01:03:00,880
about Vatican two, Francis said, after this magisterium about Votican two,

801
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,199
after this journey, we can affirm a certainty the magistical

802
01:03:04,239 --> 01:03:08,320
authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible. So there's one

803
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,559
statement from Francis right there, and that is Francis's sixty

804
01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:21,679
eighth National Liturgical Week in Italy address. This is John

805
01:03:22,119 --> 01:03:24,880
the twenty third, Pope John the twenty third's opening speech

806
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:29,639
at the council, where he proclaims it a dogmatic ecumenical council.

807
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,800
He says it is about repressing errors, which is what

808
01:03:36,239 --> 01:03:39,360
the tribes always say. It did defined no new doctrines,

809
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:44,639
and it didn't go against any errors. It didn't excommunicate anybody. Well,

810
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,360
you can read his opening speech right there, saying that

811
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:54,920
it is authoritative doctrine, which is another reputation of the drycats.

812
01:03:56,639 --> 01:03:59,639
This is another text that you have to put into

813
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:05,840
a translator because it is in Italian. This is a

814
01:04:05,960 --> 01:05:02,079
speech by Paul the six in nineteen seventy six. I

815
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:03,800
haven't looked at this document in a while, so I'm

816
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:20,719
trying to remember where it is in this Oh man,

817
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:22,239
it didn't translate the whole document.

818
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 2: Dang it.

819
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:43,639
Speaker 4: Somebody can translate this because the Google Translate for whatever reason,

820
01:05:43,719 --> 01:05:49,079
is not translating the whole document. So I'll put this

821
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,159
in the chat for you guys here for this example.

822
01:05:51,199 --> 01:06:00,360
There's there's more examples. So Pope Pious the eleventh wrote

823
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,159
an encyclical called Casti Kanubi, and we're going to look

824
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:14,719
at paragraph one oh four In Casti Knubi, let the

825
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,400
faithful be in their guard against the overrated independence of

826
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,840
private judgment and that false autonomy of human reason, for

827
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:21,920
it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of

828
01:06:22,039 --> 01:06:26,400
Christian to trust his own mental powers, the Church sent

829
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,119
by God to teach and God all nations, and not

830
01:06:28,199 --> 01:06:30,800
conversant with president affairs and circumstances, or even that he

831
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:35,000
must obey. This is what's being condemned. You must only

832
01:06:35,119 --> 01:06:37,719
obey in the matters that the Church has decreed with

833
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:42,079
solemn definition, as though her other decisions might presume to

834
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:47,239
be false or putting forward insufficient motive. Quite the contrary,

835
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,039
all true followers suffer themselves to be guided in all

836
01:06:52,239 --> 01:06:56,880
things that the Supreme Pontiff touches on. Does that say

837
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:00,440
that you only are bound by the ordinary magic, or

838
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,159
should be the extraordinary.

839
01:07:04,679 --> 01:07:04,719
Speaker 2: A.

840
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 4: Trent doesn't even appear to be aware of that. You're

841
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:12,559
not just bound by the universal extraordinary magisterium. You're also

842
01:07:12,679 --> 01:07:15,719
bound by the universal ordinary Magisterium, which Vatican one says

843
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,599
cannot err. So Trent's missing the point that it doesn't

844
01:07:19,639 --> 01:07:23,960
really matter the authority put behind the document. When Vatican

845
01:07:24,039 --> 01:07:27,960
one says the Roman Sea cannot teach error, it doesn't

846
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:32,280
matter what authority they placed in the document. The Roman

847
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:43,239
Sea doesn't teach error. See the Legus a Pius the twelfth.

848
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:49,559
This is about obedience and obedience being necessary to the

849
01:07:49,679 --> 01:07:53,239
Roman Sea. Even if you think the pope is wrong,

850
01:07:54,559 --> 01:07:58,719
so it's not very long see the leagus, I will

851
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,599
give you this think as well. This also refutes the

852
01:08:01,719 --> 01:08:12,760
papal minimalists. And let's look at Canon seven point fifty

853
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:27,359
two of the Roman canon law. Although not an assent

854
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,800
of faith, a religious submission of intellect and will must

855
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,199
be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or

856
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:37,640
the College of Bishops declares concerning faith and morals when

857
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,279
they exercise the authentic magistarian, even if they don't proclaim

858
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:46,479
it or intend to proclaim it by a definitive act. Therefore,

859
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,119
as I've been saying for the last ten to fifteen years,

860
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,600
even if Vatican two were optional, which it's not, but

861
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,640
even if it were, if the magistarian proposes it for belief,

862
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:00,640
you don't get the right to say that you disagree

863
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,680
or you think it's wrong. You submit with docility and

864
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,279
you shut your mouth because the Roman seed doesn't teach her.

865
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:10,760
So notice how far Afield Trent Horne is from what

866
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:14,119
the documents actually say. And this is because within the

867
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:18,840
Roman sphere they're trying to figure it out as they go,

868
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:22,560
and so they don't even know within this miasma of

869
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,319
thousands of pages of papal doctrines and teachings. They don't

870
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:30,479
even know the maze of papacy. But I spent almost

871
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,279
a decade in it, and I know it pretty good,

872
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:36,760
So I know these documents. Now, let's look at Vatican

873
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:47,800
one again to remind you that you don't get the

874
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,920
option of picking and choosing, and the Roman seed does

875
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:59,279
not teach error. Now, is the Roman Sea or the

876
01:09:59,359 --> 01:10:07,359
Roman Church preserved from error only in ex cathedra statements. No,

877
01:10:08,119 --> 01:10:10,039
And in fact there's more, by the way, there's four

878
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:12,359
more statements I can go to in Vatican one that

879
01:10:12,399 --> 01:10:14,439
condemn the idea that you only have to follow the

880
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:17,640
ex ca theater statements. That's condemned four times, that idea

881
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:23,439
in the Roman dogmatic system. Wherefore, by divining Catholic faith,

882
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,319
all those things are to be believed contained in the

883
01:10:25,359 --> 01:10:28,640
Word of God, scripture and tradition, which are proposed by

884
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,319
the Church as divinuly revealed, whether by solemn judgment that's

885
01:10:32,399 --> 01:10:40,479
ex cathedral or ordinary universal magitstarian that those two things

886
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:45,640
are covered by infallibility in errancy, in the Petrin chroism,

887
01:10:48,199 --> 01:10:53,520
the ordinary teaching could be wrong, but according to Canon

888
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,920
seven to fifty two, you still have to believe it

889
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,760
with facility even if you think it's wrong. Look how

890
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,880
far afield the pap apologists and the papal minimalists and

891
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,560
Tim Gordon and all these people are from what their

892
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,239
documents actually say. There's no papal minimalism here. That's a

893
01:11:11,319 --> 01:11:15,239
position that they've invented to have flexibility to make the

894
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:16,880
system work, and it still doesn't work.

895
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:22,199
Speaker 1: In a worst case scenario, a Catholic, if he had

896
01:11:22,239 --> 01:11:25,520
good reason, could privately refuse to assent to this statement.

897
01:11:26,039 --> 01:11:27,000
Such an act would not.

898
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 4: Be no, you cannot. Let's look at Trent Horn explicitly

899
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,920
rejecting his own canon law. Now, I'm pretty sure that

900
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,159
in the Romancholic system, Trent Horn is not above canon law?

901
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 3: Is he?

902
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,359
Speaker 4: What did Trent say? Even a Catholic could theoretically reject

903
01:11:54,399 --> 01:11:57,479
this statement? Why is Trent thinking along this once? Because

904
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,680
he's seeing and he's even in this video you can

905
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,359
tell you grappling with the obvious contradiction and problem here.

906
01:12:04,159 --> 01:12:07,399
He knows that it's foolish to say that Muslims worship

907
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,359
the Trinity, or that worshiping a demon is still somehow

908
01:12:10,399 --> 01:12:14,479
worshiping the One True God. So we'll go with perhaps

909
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,399
the option that this document isn't binding and I can

910
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:19,960
reject it or think that it's in error. What does

911
01:12:20,039 --> 01:12:23,359
Canon seven to fifty two say, even if it's not dogmatic,

912
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:31,159
you must submit with intellect and will on faith and morals,

913
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:38,000
even if it's not definitive. So Trent does not follow

914
01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:40,199
his own canon law. I bet you he doesn't even

915
01:12:40,239 --> 01:12:42,399
know that's in his canon law, because he doesn't seem

916
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:47,600
to be aware of extraordinary magisterium and universal ordinary magistarium

917
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,000
being covered by the terroism of Peter.

918
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: As sinful as rejecting an infallibly defined dogma like the

919
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,960
tren a heretical act, which always involves grave matter. I've

920
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:07,520
also found that some Eastern Orthodox commenters are inconsistent on

921
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:07,960
this point.

922
01:13:08,119 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 4: By the way, he's saying basically that defined dogma is

923
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:17,920
like the Trinity or the Incarnation. No defined dogma and

924
01:13:18,039 --> 01:13:23,560
infallibility cover any ecumenical council that the Pope approves, because

925
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,439
the Roman see can't teach error. He doesn't even know

926
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:32,840
Roman Catholicism. This is the top pop apologist now thinks

927
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,520
that you can make Vatican two statements optional.

928
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,079
Speaker 1: They will say Catholicism is false because the Pope said

929
01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:43,239
in an off hand comment that Christians and Muslims worship

930
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:43,880
the same God.

931
01:13:44,079 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 4: It's not an off hand comment. It's two documents in

932
01:13:47,119 --> 01:13:51,239
Vatican two and countless John Paul the second speeches, which

933
01:13:51,319 --> 01:13:54,359
people are digging up now. As we just saw the

934
01:13:54,479 --> 01:14:03,359
address to the Muslim youth that we found meeting with

935
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:08,600
the young Muslims in Casablanca, who worships, love, adore, and

936
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:12,600
serve the same God as us. The whole message of

937
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:17,119
dump all the second is the same as us. So

938
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:21,199
Trent is not telling you the truth, trying to minimize

939
01:14:21,279 --> 01:14:23,800
this as an offhand comment that the Pope says, the

940
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,199
popes have been praying in the mosque. Do what are

941
01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:30,319
you talking about an offhand comment. By the way, Trent

942
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,000
is intentionally not talking about the last several popes praying

943
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:38,399
in mosques and synagogues because he knows that's so damning

944
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:50,239
to his position. The fact that he's ignoring this and

945
01:14:50,399 --> 01:14:53,319
saying maybe in an off hand comment the pope acted

946
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,279
like we worship and served the same God. No going

947
01:14:57,359 --> 01:14:59,960
into the mosque and the synagogues as the last three

948
01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:06,800
popes have done. Is not an offhand comment, Trent. Why

949
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,439
are you guys even following Trent Horne? I don't understand

950
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,800
why people think that this is at all convincing. You

951
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:15,720
have to be like pretty mid tier IQ to think

952
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:20,439
that this is like solid stuff. He's not even mentioning this.

953
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,439
Why doesn't he at least mentioned the scandal? You don't

954
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:28,199
talk about patriochs. Yes we do. I've talked about ecumenism

955
01:15:28,399 --> 01:15:30,800
Orthodox Church and opposed it and called it out for

956
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:33,600
over ten years, even before I was Orthodox.

957
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:37,199
Speaker 1: Or a non infallible teaching at an ecumenical council, says

958
01:15:37,279 --> 01:15:38,760
Christians and Muslims each.

959
01:15:39,119 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 4: Where does he get that it's not infallible or that

960
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:47,079
he doesn't have to follow it? Do you notice he

961
01:15:47,199 --> 01:15:53,119
just said that he's not provided any sources. I've given

962
01:15:53,159 --> 01:15:57,000
you all the freaking Vatican sources. In fact, let's just

963
01:15:57,039 --> 01:16:01,319
go ahead and put this to rest with the actual

964
01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:05,439
Vatican source that loft Dog mc loft doog pulled up,

965
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:10,640
which refutes what Trent says. The Holy Spirit that guys

966
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,359
the Church is at work in the religions, the universal

967
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,720
presence of the Spirit cannot be compared to the presence

968
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:21,920
in the Church. Although one cannot exclude the salvafic value

969
01:16:22,079 --> 01:16:27,359
of the false religions, this does not mean that everything

970
01:16:27,399 --> 01:16:32,119
in them in them is selvi effic However, they can

971
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:51,520
be self effic given the explicit recognition of the Spirit

972
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:54,399
in these religions, the false relig the Holy Spirit's working

973
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,359
in the false religions, one cannot exude the possibility that

974
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:03,079
they exercise as such, not in spite of, but as such,

975
01:17:03,399 --> 01:17:10,399
as false religions a salvaffic function. Even though they're ambiguous,

976
01:17:11,359 --> 01:17:19,199
they help men achieve salvation. This is the nineteen ninety

977
01:17:19,239 --> 01:17:25,680
seven Vatican document clarifying what you see in Vatican two.

978
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:32,000
So notice they don't explain things the paup Apologists because

979
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,960
they have some idea that this is absurd and obviously

980
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,199
a contradiction. They don't explain things the way their Vatican

981
01:17:38,279 --> 01:17:39,560
does have. You notice this.

982
01:17:48,239 --> 01:17:51,560
Speaker 1: Adore God, but then they will ignore their own tradition

983
01:17:52,039 --> 01:17:55,279
when it speaks of Christians and Muslims having recourse to

984
01:17:55,359 --> 01:17:58,840
the same Creator God. Here's video of Russian patriarch caill

985
01:17:59,159 --> 01:18:02,359
saying Christian and Muslims each turned to the same God,

986
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:05,079
the Creator and here's a twenty twenty three address where

987
01:18:05,079 --> 01:18:08,359
the Russian patriarch said, we Christians and Muslims no one

988
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,000
confess that God is the true creator of the world

989
01:18:11,279 --> 01:18:12,520
and the only lawmaker.

990
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,319
Speaker 4: Well. Yeah, the difference is that Kirol has no authority

991
01:18:16,399 --> 01:18:20,039
or power to bind me to his erroneous statements. The

992
01:18:20,279 --> 01:18:24,319
Vatican Two documents and the papal normative teaching is binding

993
01:18:24,359 --> 01:18:27,119
on Roman Catholics, as we just saw. So that's why

994
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:29,920
this two quoque way and this false equivalence doesn't work.

995
01:18:30,119 --> 01:18:32,720
If we thought that Kirol was infallible or he had

996
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,720
madgisterial powers, this might be a good argument.

997
01:18:36,199 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: And Jay Dyer saw this post it on x not

998
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,359
knowing its source, he said, thanks for proving you're not Christian.

999
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:43,039
Speaker 4: Lol.

1000
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,039
Speaker 1: And here's Patriarch Bartholome you of Constantinople.

1001
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,159
Speaker 4: They thought this was a gotcha, but they don't realize

1002
01:18:49,199 --> 01:18:52,159
that I don't have a problem saying that that statement

1003
01:18:52,399 --> 01:18:54,399
is not Christian, and I don't care if it comes

1004
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,159
from Kurrol or anyone. If it comes from our priest

1005
01:18:57,319 --> 01:18:59,840
or our bishop, it's not a Christian statement. And it

1006
01:19:00,079 --> 01:19:03,479
shows a doubt because we don't know the source and

1007
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,560
so if it turns out to be Kerrol, it's entirely

1008
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:09,880
possible that Kirol is a heretic. Bartholomew probably is a

1009
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:13,840
heretic too, And why is that, Well, guess what. Many

1010
01:19:14,159 --> 01:19:16,680
patriarchs in the history of the Church have been heretics.

1011
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:24,000
This position, however, doesn't have any contradictory power. Within Orthodox ecclesiology,

1012
01:19:24,359 --> 01:19:28,159
we recognize that no bishop is infallible. Every bishop can

1013
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:31,840
become a heretic, every bishop can say things wrong. So

1014
01:19:32,159 --> 01:19:35,319
they're applying the papal system to the Orthodox system and

1015
01:19:35,359 --> 01:19:37,359
saying you don't meet up to our standards of what

1016
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:40,880
the Roman bishop has to do, and say, okay, we

1017
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,239
don't have your system. So it's a two quoque way

1018
01:19:43,319 --> 01:19:47,319
and it doesn't work within our system. So this gotcha

1019
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:51,000
was actually ridiculous because I actually affirm that it doesn't

1020
01:19:51,079 --> 01:19:53,800
matter who says it, it's a false statement. Are all

1021
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,359
created by this By the way, how many patriarchs have

1022
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:59,920
been heretics. Four of the five patriarchs at the council floor,

1023
01:20:00,079 --> 01:20:03,800
it's ended up heretical. Nestorius is the most famous patriarchal

1024
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:09,199
Constantinople who's an arch heretic, Bartholme, you can easily be

1025
01:20:09,199 --> 01:20:13,680
a heretic. How does that disprove Orthodoxy? They think that

1026
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:16,399
if I can show that you got problems or that

1027
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:20,359
you have a humanist then haha, we got you. It

1028
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:24,159
only works if you have the same system of ecclesiology.

1029
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,920
If we built everything on one, dude, then you would

1030
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:30,399
have a good argument. But they don't understand that the

1031
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:34,079
Orthodox Church is decentralized. It is not a papal system,

1032
01:20:34,319 --> 01:20:37,520
and it doesn't have a pentarchy five head, and it

1033
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:41,239
doesn't have an eight octarchy eight head. They're just bishops

1034
01:20:41,279 --> 01:20:45,520
with canonical privileges. They're not super bishops like they think

1035
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:50,279
the Pope is a super bishop and as such we

1036
01:20:50,399 --> 01:20:53,800
are brothers and sisters. See this is funny too, because

1037
01:20:54,279 --> 01:20:58,880
we have for so long been opposing ecumenism anywhere. I

1038
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,399
call it out in Rome, and you can go back

1039
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,079
ten years where I've done podcasts calling out of humanism

1040
01:21:05,239 --> 01:21:08,119
in the EP and if it's in the MP, two

1041
01:21:08,239 --> 01:21:14,000
is wrong. Between ourselves. We have the same heavenly Father,

1042
01:21:14,279 --> 01:21:15,560
whatever we call him.

1043
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: Now, Orthodox apologists say this doesn't matter.

1044
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,079
Speaker 4: No, I didn't say they have no authority. I said

1045
01:21:21,119 --> 01:21:25,279
they're not infallible and they don't bind us magisterily. This

1046
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:29,279
is the sophistry of you guys. You assume that we

1047
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:31,199
look at a bishop the way that you look at

1048
01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:34,840
a pope, and it's not our view. The Orthodox Church

1049
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:39,560
is decentralized, Bishops are not infallible. Bishops can become heretics.

1050
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,760
You're just showing your ignorance of Christian history because you

1051
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,760
don't know how many patriarchs have been heretics. Do not

1052
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:51,399
understand that this works against you, because if you're a

1053
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:53,800
Roman Catholic and you think the Church of the first

1054
01:21:53,880 --> 01:22:00,159
millennium was Roman Catholic, then all of the patriarchs who

1055
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:04,119
became heretics, that would be the same problem in your system.

1056
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:08,279
Speaker 1: You idiot, matter because the patriarchs aren't infallible, but the

1057
01:22:08,359 --> 01:22:11,479
pope and ecumenical councils aren't always infallible.

1058
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:16,720
Speaker 4: In fact, they that's totally wrong. The Pope cannot teach

1059
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:21,439
a an ecumenical council error because they are guided by

1060
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,600
the spirit of truth and do not teach error. Trent

1061
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:28,039
does not know what Vatican One says. The Roman Sea

1062
01:22:28,159 --> 01:22:31,760
has never taught error. According to Vatican One, this is

1063
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:32,439
totally false.

1064
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:37,039
Speaker 1: Rarely teach infallibly. If the patriarchs can err on Islam

1065
01:22:37,119 --> 01:22:40,359
without refuting Orthodoxy, then the same is true of non

1066
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:41,960
infallible Catholic teaching.

1067
01:22:42,079 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 4: So his whole argument hinges on this being non infallible.

1068
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:48,319
But in Canon seven fifty two, even if it were,

1069
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:50,680
he still has to assent to it and agree to it.

1070
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,439
So this ends his whole argument. But it's also false

1071
01:22:54,960 --> 01:23:12,279
because Vatican two, according to Francis, is magisteriel where'd it go?

1072
01:23:13,079 --> 01:23:16,319
Speaker 1: Things on the same subject. But more importantly, how does

1073
01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:19,720
the Eastern Orthodox apologist know that the Pope Vatican two

1074
01:23:20,039 --> 01:23:25,079
and these Orthodox patriarchs are wrong about Muslims worshiping God? Like?

1075
01:23:25,239 --> 01:23:27,439
Speaker 4: Does he think that we can't know until there's some

1076
01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:32,159
definitive statement that gives us epistemic certitude. Actually does think that,

1077
01:23:32,279 --> 01:23:34,439
because when we had our debate, he didn't even know

1078
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:40,520
the distinction between like existential certitude and normativity or like

1079
01:23:41,279 --> 01:23:44,800
normative authority, where whereby somebody pronounces something to be. So

1080
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,279
that's not the same thing when you bind someone's conscience

1081
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,680
to how I go about getting certitude or knowing something

1082
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,760
for sure? John says in the Book of John, you

1083
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:57,960
have an anointing, and you know all things. So I

1084
01:23:58,079 --> 01:24:02,319
don't need a magisterium to know truth and falsehood, because

1085
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:05,680
every person who has been chrismated in the Orthodox Church

1086
01:24:06,319 --> 01:24:08,960
has a direct connection to God. This blows the minds

1087
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:11,640
of the Roman Catholics because they actually think that knowledge

1088
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:16,079
and certitude are contingent upon the Pope saying something with

1089
01:24:16,279 --> 01:24:19,680
certitude and with magistarial authority. And then you know. But

1090
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,880
of course, where is the Roman Catholic list of the

1091
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:25,760
ex cathedra things. No Roman Catholic can give you that,

1092
01:24:26,159 --> 01:24:28,800
because there isn't. There isn't such a thing. In fact,

1093
01:24:29,039 --> 01:24:31,279
Trent doesn't even seem to be aware of Denzinger. Now

1094
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,920
let's go to Denzinger because I want you to see

1095
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:40,399
the specific places in Denzinger where this idea of Trent

1096
01:24:41,039 --> 01:24:44,239
that you only have to follow the infallible statements or

1097
01:24:44,279 --> 01:24:47,760
the ex cathedra statements is condemned. This will put to

1098
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:57,680
rest the entire nonsense of Trent. Watch this, Okay, we're

1099
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:03,720
gonna get our Denzinger out, And knowing Denzinger well is

1100
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,159
really the kill shot for all the Roman Catholic stuff.

1101
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:12,920
This is the famous sources of Catholic dogma. This is

1102
01:25:13,399 --> 01:25:18,680
essentially from their vantage point, all of the papally approved statements.

1103
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,239
And if I go to Abadikan one.

1104
01:25:32,279 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 2: Okay, here we go.

1105
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:42,159
Speaker 4: We're gonna go to Denzinger sixteen ninety nine first mhm

1106
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:44,439
uh ninety eight.

1107
01:26:52,399 --> 01:26:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, m hm.

1108
01:26:58,720 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 2: Hm m hm.

1109
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:04,159
Speaker 4: Nor do they blush to profess openly and publicly the

1110
01:27:04,279 --> 01:27:08,760
axiom in principle of heretics from which so many perverse

1111
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:11,880
opinions and errors arise. For they repeatedly say that the

1112
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:15,000
ecclesiastical power is not by divine right, or it's not

1113
01:27:15,159 --> 01:27:17,720
distinct from an independent from the civil power, and that

1114
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:20,159
the distinction independence of the same could not be preserved

1115
01:27:20,239 --> 01:27:23,840
without the essential rights and civil power being invaded or

1116
01:27:23,920 --> 01:27:26,479
served upon the Church. And we cannot pass over in

1117
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,239
silence the boldness of those who, not enduring sound doctrine

1118
01:27:29,319 --> 01:27:31,880
contend that without sin and with no lass to the

1119
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:37,600
Catholic profession, one can withhold assent and obedience to the

1120
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:42,720
judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is

1121
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:44,840
declared to relate to the general good of the Church

1122
01:27:45,279 --> 01:27:49,680
and its rights and disciplines, so provided it doesn't touch

1123
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,279
on dogmas. That's exactly what Trent just argued, and that

1124
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:57,680
is the position that is condemned. So Trent just stated

1125
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,680
a literal condemned proposition that you only have to follow

1126
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:06,800
the ex Cathedrais statements and not the disciplines and decisions

1127
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,399
of the Roman Curia and the Roman College and the

1128
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:15,920
Roman see. Can everybody see that there is no one

1129
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,000
who does not see and understand how opposed this is

1130
01:28:20,199 --> 01:28:23,600
to Catholic dogma, Literally the position that Trent just said.

1131
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,239
And if you don't know this is pious, the knights

1132
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:38,520
quanta cure. Okay, now let's go to the next one

1133
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:50,800
sixteen eighty three. This one explicitly condemns Trent because it's

1134
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:55,359
exactly what Trent disargued. Again, these people don't even know

1135
01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:00,279
that they make what were considered modernist proposition in the

1136
01:29:00,359 --> 01:29:04,439
eighteen hundreds. They make the modernist propositions, and then they

1137
01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:07,239
didn't even realize that the papacy has condemned the very

1138
01:29:07,319 --> 01:29:11,039
modernest propositions that they're saying. So let's go to another

1139
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:25,239
Denzinger sixteen eighty three. We persuade ourselves also that they

1140
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,960
did not wish to declare that the perfect adhesion to

1141
01:29:29,039 --> 01:29:33,199
revealed truths, which they recognize is absolutely necessary to attain

1142
01:29:33,279 --> 01:29:36,600
true progress in the sciences and to refute errors. Could

1143
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:40,239
be obtained if faith and obedience were only given to

1144
01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:44,920
the dogmas expressly defined by the Church. For even if

1145
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:48,640
it were a matter concerning the subjection which is to

1146
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:52,279
be manifested by an act of divine faith, nevertheless, it

1147
01:29:52,319 --> 01:29:54,960
would not have have to be limited to those matters

1148
01:29:55,039 --> 01:29:59,560
which have been defined by express decrees or ecumenical councils

1149
01:30:00,199 --> 01:30:03,920
of the Roman Pontus of the Sea, but would have

1150
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,199
to be extended to those matters which are handed down

1151
01:30:06,239 --> 01:30:12,640
as if only revealed by the ordinary teaching power of

1152
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:15,119
the whole Church spread throughout the world, and therefore by

1153
01:30:15,199 --> 01:30:17,920
universal and common consent, are held by Catholic the Olgiens

1154
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:20,520
to belong to the faith. So you have you're bound

1155
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:24,039
by more than just that. And then we got seventeen

1156
01:30:24,359 --> 01:30:37,880
ninety two by divining Catholic faith. All those things are

1157
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:39,720
to believe what you are containing the Word of God, tradition,

1158
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:41,920
and which are proposed by the Church, either in a

1159
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:46,760
solemn pronouncement or interordinary universal magisterrum. That's from Vatican one.

1160
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:57,760
All right, now, we're going to go back to fifteen

1161
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:02,840
seventy eight, because this one works through a fuge Trent too,

1162
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:25,239
this is a Jansenist position condemned in Octorum fe day.

1163
01:31:25,239 --> 01:31:34,359
I think this is what this one is. This is

1164
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:37,600
describing the Jansenest positions. And it says as if the Church,

1165
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,600
led by the Holy Spirit of God, could have established

1166
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:43,800
a discipline which is useless or burdensome for Christian liberty,

1167
01:31:44,079 --> 01:31:46,560
but which is even dangerous and harmful and leads to

1168
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:52,199
the superstition and materialism. This position is false, rash, scandalous,

1169
01:31:52,279 --> 01:31:56,760
and dangerous, offensive to the ears, and injurious to the Church.

1170
01:31:57,359 --> 01:32:01,680
So if you think that the Church can establish any

1171
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:06,119
disciplines or any rights, and by extension, if you think

1172
01:32:06,239 --> 01:32:11,479
that Nostra ataate or Luminagentium sixteen are false, are bad,

1173
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:13,760
or are bad, or if you think that the New

1174
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:17,319
Mass and the New Sacraments are bad, you are condemned

1175
01:32:17,399 --> 01:32:21,720
because the Roman See cannot produce rights and disciplines that

1176
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:24,560
are harmful to the church. So that refutes Trent. Again.

1177
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:27,079
By the way, there's more, but I think you get

1178
01:32:27,159 --> 01:32:30,039
the point that you don't get the liberty of picking

1179
01:32:30,119 --> 01:32:35,079
and choosing amongst a much broader magisterium than the papal

1180
01:32:35,199 --> 01:32:37,680
minimalists want to make it. And the only reason they

1181
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:41,039
argue papal minimalism is to get around the problems that

1182
01:32:41,119 --> 01:32:43,000
they have with these Vatican two documents.

1183
01:32:44,279 --> 01:32:47,359
Speaker 1: An Orthodox apologists might say, well, we have the tradition

1184
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:50,600
and consensus of Orthodox saints and fathers to guide us.

1185
01:32:51,119 --> 01:32:55,439
But does he centuries before Islam existed the Church fathers

1186
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:59,640
affirm that Jews who rejected Jesus still worshiped God.

1187
01:33:00,239 --> 01:33:06,199
Speaker 4: No, they don't. John chrystalstom we just shared this again.

1188
01:33:06,359 --> 01:33:08,159
By the way, I bet you. Let's see. I want

1189
01:33:08,159 --> 01:33:13,439
to see what Cody's going to show. By the way,

1190
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:17,239
remember John Paul the Second said, may Saint John the

1191
01:33:17,359 --> 01:33:23,319
Baptist protect Islam? Remember that again, refuting the nonsense of Trent.

1192
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:38,960
But what does Chrystalism say about the Jews? No Jew

1193
01:33:39,039 --> 01:33:42,479
worships God? Who says this? The Son of God says it,

1194
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:44,960
for he says, if you knew my father, you would

1195
01:33:45,039 --> 01:33:47,199
know me. But neither do you know me, nor do

1196
01:33:47,279 --> 01:33:51,399
you know my Father? What is more trustworthy than the

1197
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:53,640
testimony that I can offer than this? In other words,

1198
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:57,359
Christalism correctly says there's no higher authority than Jesus in

1199
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:02,119
John at five and John eight. The Jews do not

1200
01:34:02,319 --> 01:34:05,079
know the Father because they don't know the son. So

1201
01:34:05,239 --> 01:34:09,560
Trent is completely contradicting himself. Here's John Christ st John Christs.

1202
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:11,560
I'm in Homily two. By the way, I went and checked,

1203
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:14,680
this is accurate. It's Homily two against the Jews, and

1204
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:19,680
it's exactly correct. And it doesn't And even if Trent

1205
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:21,880
finds a quote where a church father says something wrong,

1206
01:34:22,199 --> 01:34:25,600
uh sorry, but divine revelation trumps a church father in

1207
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:31,119
anybody's system, whether you're Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox. Divine revelation

1208
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:35,039
is above a church father because everybody believes that any

1209
01:34:35,079 --> 01:34:38,399
individual church father can make errors and say things wrong.

1210
01:34:39,199 --> 01:34:42,119
Roman Catholics believe that even the doctors of the church

1211
01:34:42,279 --> 01:34:44,680
in the Roman system can get things wrong because Thomas

1212
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:47,399
Aquinas teaches things that Roman Catholics now believe are false.

1213
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:49,560
For example, about the Immaculate conception.

1214
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:58,359
Speaker 1: In the second century, Justin Martyr said, nor do we

1215
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:00,840
think that there is one God for us, us another

1216
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:03,800
for you, but that he alone is God who led

1217
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:06,760
your fathers out from Egypt with a strong hand and

1218
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:09,600
a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other,

1219
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:12,560
For there is no other but in Him, in whom

1220
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,239
you also have trusted God.

1221
01:35:16,159 --> 01:35:18,359
Speaker 4: The Him and whom you also have trusted is a

1222
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,960
reference to the Jews and Hebrews of the past who

1223
01:35:22,039 --> 01:35:25,359
were true worshippers of Jesus in the Old Testament. The

1224
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:28,960
irony of this passage is that Trent doesn't even realize

1225
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:31,960
that he's citing a book that refutes the very thing

1226
01:35:32,039 --> 01:35:34,800
he argued to me in our debate. In our debate,

1227
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:37,720
he argued that the Old Testament saints didn't know the Trinity.

1228
01:35:38,119 --> 01:35:40,840
I mentioned in our debate. Have you not read Justin

1229
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:45,439
Martyr against Tripho the Jew Because Justin's entire argumentation is

1230
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:51,680
about how the Old Testament teaches the triad. Trent hasn't

1231
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:54,840
read this passage or this book. And even this passage

1232
01:35:55,279 --> 01:36:00,399
is saying to Tripho Tripho, the real true Jews worship

1233
01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:03,159
the Angel of the Lord like we do. That's Jesus.

1234
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:06,439
That's the argument of the book. So this is out

1235
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:11,000
of context and not correct. And let me show you

1236
01:36:11,159 --> 01:36:17,079
something to hammer this position home. Actually, this is actually

1237
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:22,960
an important point. Watch this what do you want to

1238
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:25,039
bet Shamun is the one who actually put this together.

1239
01:36:25,119 --> 01:36:30,880
By the way Church Father quotes on who is the

1240
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,880
Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Let's see

1241
01:36:40,199 --> 01:36:49,279
sixty three. Now, notice what assuming that scam shamou put

1242
01:36:49,359 --> 01:36:53,560
this collection together. He begins with Justin Martyr against against Streifo,

1243
01:36:55,239 --> 01:36:58,720
and Justin Martyr's whole argument in the book is that

1244
01:36:59,239 --> 01:37:01,479
Jesus is the with the Lord, the God the Old

1245
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:05,359
TESTAMU is the Trinity. And Trent is taking that out

1246
01:37:05,399 --> 01:37:09,920
of context because it proves what I argued against Trent

1247
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:14,439
in our debate. I hope everybody sees how ridiculous Trent Horne.

1248
01:37:14,319 --> 01:37:18,319
Speaker 1: Is of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob. In

1249
01:37:18,399 --> 01:37:21,159
the fourth century, Gregory of Nissa said, we can hear

1250
01:37:21,319 --> 01:37:24,720
Jews believing in God, and our God too. Even our

1251
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:27,680
Lord reminds them in the Gospel that they recognize no

1252
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:30,479
other God than the Father of the Only Begotten, of

1253
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:33,199
whom ye say that he is your God. Are we

1254
01:37:33,359 --> 01:37:36,720
then to call the Jews Christians because they too agree

1255
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:39,159
to worship the God whom we adore.

1256
01:37:40,479 --> 01:37:43,720
Speaker 4: He's taking that out of context, because again the passage

1257
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:47,239
is saying that you Jews claim to worship God the Father.

1258
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:51,119
You have worshiped God the Father because Abraham was a

1259
01:37:51,199 --> 01:37:53,760
Jew that worshiped God the Father. But he worshiped God

1260
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:56,479
the Father through the Son because he believed in the Son.

1261
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:59,319
So once again it's like Trent is not even aware

1262
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:02,880
of what on five and John five, John eight actually say.

1263
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:06,479
Let's look and remind each each other. And by the way,

1264
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:10,039
even if his reading were correct, Gregor Vnissa got plenty

1265
01:38:10,079 --> 01:38:12,720
of things wrong. Gregor Nissa believes in a pocket the stasis,

1266
01:38:13,119 --> 01:38:16,439
and that position is eventually rejected by the Church. Which

1267
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:18,640
I'm not granting that Trench's reading is actually correct, But

1268
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:20,880
even if it were correct, and even if Gregor Nissa

1269
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:24,279
spoke out of hand, it wouldn't matter because we aren't

1270
01:38:24,279 --> 01:38:27,199
as Orthodox bound by every statement that a church father says.

1271
01:38:28,119 --> 01:38:33,600
We're not bound by the varying canons that many church

1272
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:36,239
fathers propose. They're all over the place when it comes

1273
01:38:36,279 --> 01:38:40,079
to varying canons. And then as we get towards the

1274
01:38:40,199 --> 01:38:43,520
Seventh Ecumentical Council, there seems to be a greater and

1275
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:46,880
greater consensus on the canon scripture. But we don't go

1276
01:38:47,079 --> 01:38:50,840
to somebody who's in the second century and say, well,

1277
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,479
this church father said this really weird list of a

1278
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,800
canonical scripture. So it must be that, and you must

1279
01:38:55,840 --> 01:38:57,760
be bound by that if you hold that person as

1280
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:01,279
a saint. Nobody actually operates that way. What does Jesus

1281
01:39:01,319 --> 01:39:12,279
say to the Pharisees, the Father sent me. You have

1282
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:14,920
neither heard his voice at any time, nor have you

1283
01:39:15,000 --> 01:39:19,399
seen his form, nor do you have him and his

1284
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:23,520
word abiding in you. You search scriptures because you think

1285
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:25,840
that it's in them you have eternal life. But the

1286
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:30,279
scriptures bear witness to Christ. The Torah is about Jesus.

1287
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:34,479
Jesus is the living Torah. He's saying, I do not

1288
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,479
receive honor from men, but I know you. You do

1289
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:41,119
not have the love of God in you. Now a

1290
01:39:41,239 --> 01:39:45,720
Jew might say, wait a minute, I believe in the tetragrammatone.

1291
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:50,359
I believe that God is Yahweh, and the proposition is correct.

1292
01:39:51,079 --> 01:39:54,760
But having a correct proposition is not enough and is

1293
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,319
not what we're talking about in terms of worship. Love

1294
01:39:57,399 --> 01:40:01,680
and adore do the Unitarian fear. He's in Jews love

1295
01:40:03,039 --> 01:40:07,720
the one God. Jesus says, no, you do not have

1296
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:12,840
the love of God in you. And Jesus Trump's gregor

1297
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:15,479
of Nissa even though I don't grant that Trent's reading

1298
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:19,239
of Gregorness is correct. Again, look at all of these

1299
01:40:19,439 --> 01:40:26,039
Justin Martyr quotes. The angel who's wrestling is Jesus. Jesus

1300
01:40:26,159 --> 01:40:28,279
is the Angel of the Lord. He's the Theophany, He's

1301
01:40:28,279 --> 01:40:30,800
the one that's appearing in all these passages. He's the

1302
01:40:30,880 --> 01:40:34,520
I Am in Exodus three, Jesus, Jesus. Jesus is the

1303
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:39,840
whole point of Justin's argument. And in the debate with

1304
01:40:39,920 --> 01:40:44,359
Trent Horn, he explicitly says they're not worshiping Jesus in

1305
01:40:44,359 --> 01:40:47,600
the Old Testament. They don't know about the Trinity. Do

1306
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:51,359
you understand how important this point is. This means that

1307
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:56,119
Roman Catholics are misleading you, and the Orthodox Church correctly

1308
01:40:56,239 --> 01:41:01,039
teaches that there is no monotheistic thing. As Father Seraphim

1309
01:41:01,079 --> 01:41:06,880
Rose says right here, there's only the Trinity. The God

1310
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:11,119
of the Christians is the God who's worshiped as Holy Trinity, Father, Son,

1311
01:41:11,159 --> 01:41:13,960
and Spirit. This is the God revealed to Abraham in

1312
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:18,159
the icon If you just looked at the rublev Icon,

1313
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:25,960
you would know Christian theology. Even iconography would just simply

1314
01:41:26,039 --> 01:41:30,279
teach the average lay person or the Russian peasant. This point,

1315
01:41:49,039 --> 01:41:58,039
I'm looking for the Saint Maximus picture because that one's

1316
01:41:58,079 --> 01:42:15,359
good too. Here is Saint Gregor Palomas explicitly saying Muslims

1317
01:42:15,399 --> 01:42:19,039
do not worship God. Latin Skismatics can stop taking him

1318
01:42:19,039 --> 01:42:23,079
out of context. Although they knew God, they did not

1319
01:42:23,319 --> 01:42:28,760
honor and worship him as God. That's in the context

1320
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:32,920
citing Romans One as I did about Muslims. So Gregor

1321
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:35,720
Palomas has taking the Romans One passage about Pagans and

1322
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:40,000
saying same application of the Muslims. But we need to

1323
01:42:40,039 --> 01:42:43,399
see the By the way, this famous icon I forgot

1324
01:42:45,159 --> 01:42:49,520
also teaches this point. The true worship of God is

1325
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:53,239
in the arc of the church. And you'll notice it

1326
01:42:53,399 --> 01:42:57,439
is the Holy Spirit that guides this arc church. It's

1327
01:42:57,520 --> 01:43:03,039
the wind that moves the sails. And outside of this

1328
01:43:03,239 --> 01:43:10,760
church are the demons, the Masons, the heretics, the Pope,

1329
01:43:11,439 --> 01:43:18,840
the atheist Lenin Luther, the iconoclasts, Antichrist, and the Muslims

1330
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:23,720
at Mohammed. Notice that Mohammed is shooting his arrows out

1331
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:28,399
of the mouth of a giant beast at the church.

1332
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:31,479
And Roman Catholics will don't understand this because they don't

1333
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:37,439
understand that canonical icons teach the correct theology. You don't

1334
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:40,359
have to be a PhD in theology or a THHD.

1335
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:46,600
You don't have to master Patristic Greek and learn all

1336
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:52,159
of this, you know, high falutin logi, logizmoy all this.

1337
01:43:52,359 --> 01:43:54,640
You don't have to do that. If you are good

1338
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:59,560
enough at reading an icon, you will get the accurate

1339
01:43:59,640 --> 01:44:09,239
faith in the canonical icons. Yeah, but I do want

1340
01:44:09,279 --> 01:44:11,760
to find I know I shared it. Where's it at

1341
01:44:13,199 --> 01:44:20,000
the quote from Maximus that's just kind of ends this

1342
01:44:20,079 --> 01:45:15,439
whole thing. Maybe I already skipped it. Okay, I don't

1343
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:18,279
mean to be showing these dms, but this only place

1344
01:45:18,319 --> 01:45:23,159
I can find it. So here's the DM same Maximus

1345
01:45:23,279 --> 01:45:26,680
confessor that Abraham was taught and worshiped the Trinity response

1346
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:31,119
to the Lassios ad the Lassios twenty eight two. God

1347
01:45:31,199 --> 01:45:33,760
appeared to Abraham, who was perfect in knowledge and who

1348
01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:37,800
already possessed an intellect completely beyond matter in figurations. God

1349
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:40,359
taught him that the immaterial principle of the Trinity and

1350
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:42,199
here is in the principle of its unity. And for

1351
01:45:42,279 --> 01:45:46,479
this reason, God appeared to Abraham as three and spoke

1352
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:52,279
as one. Abraham believed and worshiped the Triad. And that's

1353
01:45:52,319 --> 01:45:56,880
why all of these Roman Catholics are refuted by the

1354
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:02,880
exact same arguments that we used against the Muslims. Isn't

1355
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:08,199
that interesting when we argue with the Muslims? When I

1356
01:46:08,279 --> 01:46:14,880
debated Daniel Haikikachu, what was the debate ultimately about? Is

1357
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:20,840
the God of the Prophets unitarian? Or try it? This,

1358
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,039
by the way, is why sam Shamun has completely destroyed

1359
01:46:24,119 --> 01:46:28,520
himself because he now has contradicted and agreed that Muslims

1360
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:38,720
are worshiping the one true God. Here it is right

1361
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:45,720
here jen whether Islam or Christianity actually has continuity with

1362
01:46:46,079 --> 01:46:47,920
the religion that's laid down in the Law and the

1363
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:51,079
Prophets and that image there. We're not going to go

1364
01:46:51,079 --> 01:46:52,520
two deep into it right now, but we'll get into

1365
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:54,159
it here in a little bit, and I might go

1366
01:46:54,279 --> 01:46:57,119
back and forth between screenshare and some of the stuff

1367
01:46:57,119 --> 01:46:59,720
I've got over here to show the first question I

1368
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:03,600
would ask in regard profits are disconsistent with prior revelation

1369
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:08,640
that the Second Temple period was not a monolithic Unitarian enterprise.

1370
01:47:09,359 --> 01:47:12,159
The question becomes, what are the teachings of the Prophets

1371
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:16,359
in the Old Testament. Did they actually teach as Islam says,

1372
01:47:16,399 --> 01:47:20,439
a radical unitarianism or is it something more fluid or

1373
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:24,359
is there differentiation in Yahweh? In fact, modern Jewish scholarship

1374
01:47:24,479 --> 01:47:29,279
unanimously is undecided on this question. There's a lot of

1375
01:47:29,359 --> 01:47:32,960
Jewish scholarship that is listed here. For example, Daniel Boylaren

1376
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:37,239
later I have Summer and I have Siegel, and they

1377
01:47:37,279 --> 01:47:40,039
admit that in the Old Testament itself not due to

1378
01:47:40,279 --> 01:47:44,520
Christian deviation, but in the Old Testament itself we find many,

1379
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:50,680
many passages that show differentiation in Yahueh. That differentiation is

1380
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:53,720
not just located in rabbinic debates. It also continues into

1381
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:56,640
later medieval debates with Jewish cabbal law, and you could

1382
01:47:56,640 --> 01:47:59,680
see there. For example, Gursham Scholam in his book on Kabala,

1383
01:48:00,119 --> 01:48:04,680
the respected Cabalist, theologian of the Middle Ages, or a

1384
01:48:05,119 --> 01:48:08,319
scholar of medieval Kabbala, he points out, for example, to

1385
01:48:08,399 --> 01:48:11,239
be three beginningless lights that are mentioned. Now, I'm not

1386
01:48:11,279 --> 01:48:14,079
a cobbleist. I'm just pointing out that this shows that

1387
01:48:14,199 --> 01:48:17,840
the Jewish tradition is not monolithic in its presentation. So

1388
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,640
I'd like to come back then to my screen. To me,

1389
01:48:22,039 --> 01:48:27,359
these are particularly useful for demonstrating this, and that's Jesus

1390
01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:30,960
in the triad throughout the Old Testament. I mean, so

1391
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:38,600
it's just kind of exhausting, disheartening and ridiculous that we

1392
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:41,880
have to actually explain to all of these so called

1393
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:47,119
Christians that it's essential to Christianity that the Old Testament

1394
01:48:47,239 --> 01:48:49,640
teach the trinity and the deed of Christ. I mean,

1395
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:51,439
can you believe that this is what we're having to

1396
01:48:51,520 --> 01:48:59,920
do and something that should be basic for Christians, Especially

1397
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:03,319
if you're going to be combating Muslims and Unitarians and Jews.

1398
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,920
You got to know this stuff or else you're going

1399
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:09,199
to be duped. As many people who don't know their

1400
01:49:09,239 --> 01:49:13,039
faith fall into Islam because they think the Old Testament

1401
01:49:13,119 --> 01:49:17,000
is unitarian. Well, if the Old Testament's unitarian and Deuteronomy

1402
01:49:17,039 --> 01:49:19,680
thirteen and eighteen says not to go after other gods

1403
01:49:20,119 --> 01:49:22,920
and Jesus comes along and says he's God, then Muslims

1404
01:49:22,920 --> 01:49:26,119
and Jews are correct. Then it's another God because it's

1405
01:49:26,159 --> 01:49:29,439
no longer a unitarian deity. It's a trinitarian duty. It's

1406
01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:32,439
very simple. It has to always be trinitarian. And if

1407
01:49:32,479 --> 01:49:36,720
these people understood how to do apologetics against Muslims and Jews,

1408
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,840
they would not fall into this stupid error. But they

1409
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:42,960
fall into it because the real God in the determiner

1410
01:49:43,039 --> 01:49:46,119
of their system is the papacy. And that means that

1411
01:49:46,319 --> 01:49:49,600
their worship is also false worship because it's an idol.

1412
01:49:50,399 --> 01:49:53,279
God is not first in their system, it's the papacy.

1413
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:59,640
The papacy decides and determines reality. Remember Trent said, the

1414
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:03,840
pope can now even change the death penalty, which they

1415
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:07,720
thought is natural law and natural justice. The pope can

1416
01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:12,520
decide that's against the Gospel. And when I brought this

1417
01:50:12,640 --> 01:50:15,039
up to Trent, and when Trent replied, Trent said, as

1418
01:50:15,079 --> 01:50:17,520
we covered it in our streams, well, you picked the

1419
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:20,600
answer that you think is the best. This is we're

1420
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:28,239
Roman Cathic Polgetics's so, notice also that the religion and

1421
01:50:28,319 --> 01:50:34,199
worship of God, as I pointed out, is done in

1422
01:50:34,279 --> 01:50:40,439
a certain way. It's done with a priesthood, an alter

1423
01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:49,520
a sacrifice, and it has to have a Messiah. And

1424
01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:53,800
we also find other implements like vestiments in sense and iconography,

1425
01:50:56,159 --> 01:51:03,359
those are essential and incidental of the worship of Yahweh. Right,

1426
01:51:07,680 --> 01:51:15,920
does Islam have those No, Islam has no temple, no priesthood,

1427
01:51:16,439 --> 01:51:21,000
no altar, no sacrifice, no heavenly content, no heavenly liturgy,

1428
01:51:21,560 --> 01:51:25,560
and thus no continuity with the worship of the Old Testament.

1429
01:51:26,079 --> 01:51:31,840
Malchisedec refutes Islam, and it also refutes these idiots trying

1430
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:34,239
to argue that Muslims worship the same God as Us.

1431
01:51:36,199 --> 01:51:39,720
Why because Paul says in Hebrew seven that the priesthood

1432
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:44,520
of Christ is an eternal priesthood that's Melchizedecian, and the

1433
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:47,800
only way to worship God is triadic, because Jesus is

1434
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:55,119
the eternal priest, offering the worship in heaven. So unless

1435
01:51:55,159 --> 01:52:01,399
you're united to Jesus, the Melchizedekian high priest, you're not

1436
01:52:01,560 --> 01:52:06,239
worshiping the Father, even if you think you are. It's

1437
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:11,119
vain and futile. That's what they don't understand, because they

1438
01:52:11,199 --> 01:52:15,760
don't know that Islam doesn't have temples, pri says, alters, sacrifices,

1439
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:20,840
or heavenly liturgy. And if you don't have the divine

1440
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:24,199
person of the Son of God in human nature as

1441
01:52:24,279 --> 01:52:28,720
a Melchizedekian priest offering in heaven, you don't have the

1442
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:47,640
Father all right now, he's going to quote a bunch

1443
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:49,760
of Protestant stuff. I don't really care about Martin Luther

1444
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:50,960
and Protestant stuff.

1445
01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:58,720
Speaker 1: Of Abraham. Note the qualification Muslims profess or claim to

1446
01:52:58,800 --> 01:52:59,880
have the faith of Abraham.

1447
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:03,560
Speaker 4: No, it does not say that. It says that. In

1448
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:09,119
one place, it says they profess to have it. Here, however,

1449
01:53:10,439 --> 01:53:16,520
in no att it says they do have it. They

1450
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:20,319
take pains to submit wholeheartedly even to God's indiscritable decrees,

1451
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:25,960
just like Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes

1452
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:29,760
pleasure in liking itself submitted to God. So notice the

1453
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:34,439
contradiction between the nostra atat statement and the lumagentium statement.

1454
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,479
Here it says they do adore the One True God

1455
01:53:39,800 --> 01:53:44,760
and they do submit to God's decrees, just like Abraham.

1456
01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:48,479
So it says both things, Trent. It doesn't just say

1457
01:53:49,279 --> 01:53:52,840
they think they have it. It says both, And it

1458
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:57,680
says they worship God. Now, remember they tried to play

1459
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:00,600
a word game, many of them that, Oh, it doesn't

1460
01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:04,239
actually say worship, It's used the word adore. That's different. Oh,

1461
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:07,279
but it uses worship in the last sentence of three

1462
01:54:07,439 --> 01:54:09,279
doesn't Oops, Oh that doesn't work.

1463
01:54:09,359 --> 01:54:13,119
Speaker 1: Uh oh, but they don't actually have that faith because

1464
01:54:13,159 --> 01:54:15,800
the Quran is an uninspired distortion of the Old and

1465
01:54:15,880 --> 01:54:18,880
New Testament delivered by a false prophet. I cover this

1466
01:54:19,039 --> 01:54:21,680
in my episode on why I'm not a Muslim linked

1467
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:22,640
in the description below.

1468
01:54:23,359 --> 01:54:27,319
Speaker 4: If it's an uninspired distortion from a demon, then the

1469
01:54:27,439 --> 01:54:32,239
god of that inspiration is also, by extension, a false god.

1470
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:34,800
Speaker 1: Real fast. At this point, a lot of people would

1471
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:37,159
say in a video, here's the word from our sponsor.

1472
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:41,199
But I love that our supporters are so generous. They

1473
01:54:41,279 --> 01:54:44,399
did not honor him as God or give thanks to him,

1474
01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:47,840
but they became feudile in their thinking, and their senseless

1475
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,560
minds were darkened. Saint Paul assumes a person can not

1476
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:53,279
only worship God if they don't know he is a trinity,

1477
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:56,239
but a person is morally required to work.

1478
01:54:56,319 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 4: There's nothing in that passage that gives the indication that

1479
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:03,720
Paul is saying that you can still worship God without

1480
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:07,159
knowing that he's trying. In fact, in Acts seventeen, he

1481
01:55:07,319 --> 01:55:10,000
actually says the Word is near you, even in your heart.

1482
01:55:10,159 --> 01:55:49,960
He actually references Christ, not a generic Unitarian God. How

1483
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:52,000
do I know that? Well, let's look at the passage here,

1484
01:55:52,039 --> 01:55:55,800
he says, as I walk through the Areopagus men of Athens,

1485
01:55:55,840 --> 01:55:58,319
I perceive that you're very religious. The word there is

1486
01:55:58,319 --> 01:56:01,800
also superstitious, and some of the translation for as I

1487
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:04,640
was passing through, I considered the objects of worship, and

1488
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:07,720
I found an altar. Paul is talking about idols. He's

1489
01:56:07,720 --> 01:56:10,079
talking about how superstitious the Greeks were, and then that

1490
01:56:10,199 --> 01:56:14,399
he found an idol to the Unknown God. Paul is

1491
01:56:14,479 --> 01:56:20,560
using a pedagogical teaching at example, through finding this altar.

1492
01:56:21,359 --> 01:56:23,720
He is not saying, if you read, as we saw

1493
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:28,319
earlier in Romans One, that the pagan gentiles here are

1494
01:56:28,439 --> 01:56:31,279
actually worshiping the one True God because they had an

1495
01:56:31,279 --> 01:56:34,800
altar called Unknown God. That totally reverses and changes the

1496
01:56:34,880 --> 01:56:38,119
whole meaning and point of this passage. He's saying that

1497
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:42,159
although you ought to have known God, you don't. You failed,

1498
01:56:42,279 --> 01:56:45,439
and you worship things that are not God. Notice he

1499
01:56:45,479 --> 01:56:48,279
says in verse twenty nine after he talks about this,

1500
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:51,359
he says that God made all the nations and set

1501
01:56:51,439 --> 01:56:54,920
up their boundaries in the times of their dwellings so

1502
01:56:55,079 --> 01:56:59,079
that they might seek Him, not a generic Unitarian God.

1503
01:56:59,159 --> 01:57:02,239
So Trent keeps us assuming that the God that's mentioned

1504
01:57:02,279 --> 01:57:05,560
in this passage is a generic Unitarian deity, it's not.

1505
01:57:06,319 --> 01:57:10,840
In fact, the god Paul says, is Jesus here in

1506
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:12,600
the hope that we might grow fro him and find him,

1507
01:57:12,600 --> 01:57:15,960
although he is not far from each of us, for

1508
01:57:16,159 --> 01:57:17,920
in him we live and move and have our being.

1509
01:57:18,319 --> 01:57:22,039
This is talking about the logos, right, because in Colossians One,

1510
01:57:22,199 --> 01:57:26,960
Paul uses the same terminology about Christ. In him we

1511
01:57:27,039 --> 01:57:30,159
live and he sustains everything by his word? Who is

1512
01:57:30,239 --> 01:57:34,199
the logos? So in him, who's the hem that we

1513
01:57:34,279 --> 01:57:36,079
live in, move and have our being? When Colossian's one,

1514
01:57:36,159 --> 01:57:41,279
it's Jesus. It's not a generic Unitarian god. Some of

1515
01:57:41,319 --> 01:57:45,520
your poets have said we are his offspring. Paul is

1516
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:49,439
using a rhetorical device of saying that even pagan poets

1517
01:57:49,800 --> 01:57:53,199
have pointed out that we're children of God, but we're

1518
01:57:53,239 --> 01:57:55,880
not children of good of Zeus. Paul is saying that

1519
01:57:56,439 --> 01:58:00,680
you're not knowing or understanding who you're worshiping. Zeus is

1520
01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:03,720
a demon. Zeus doesn't have offspring, he doesn't have children.

1521
01:58:04,159 --> 01:58:07,720
You don't know that Yahweh is the one true God

1522
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:10,439
and we are his offspring. So this would be like

1523
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:13,880
saying if a Satanist says, I am a son of

1524
01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:17,720
Satan and he makes me divine, and I say, you're

1525
01:58:17,840 --> 01:58:20,880
right to say that we become sons of God and divine,

1526
01:58:21,239 --> 01:58:24,199
but not through being children of Satan or Zeus. That's

1527
01:58:24,279 --> 01:58:28,119
what Paul's point is. That's why it's not the known God,

1528
01:58:28,319 --> 01:58:32,119
it's the unknown God. And the Roman calarchies are literally

1529
01:58:32,159 --> 01:58:35,119
taking his passage and saying, well, Paul actually means that

1530
01:58:35,159 --> 01:58:37,840
he's the one they know because they have an altar

1531
01:58:38,039 --> 01:58:41,560
and it says unknown, are you that dumb? Really? In

1532
01:58:41,720 --> 01:58:45,399
Roman's one, he says they don't know him. They exchanged

1533
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:53,359
the worship of that God for false worship. Then he says, therefore,

1534
01:58:53,439 --> 01:58:56,000
since we are the offspring of God, we should not,

1535
01:58:56,359 --> 01:58:58,920
like in the divine nature, to idols the very thing

1536
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:04,039
that they've done us invalidating their worship, it's idolatry. God

1537
01:59:04,119 --> 01:59:07,239
doesn't accept idolatrous worship. He didn't accept Nate evan Abaye,

1538
01:59:07,239 --> 01:59:10,960
who God overlooked their ignorance. So wait a minute, I

1539
01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:13,640
thought they weren't ignorant. I thought they knew, because Trent

1540
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:17,279
just said they knew and worshiped a Unitarian God. But

1541
01:59:17,359 --> 01:59:21,279
Paul says, no, you're ignorant, because he is appointed today

1542
01:59:21,319 --> 01:59:24,359
in which he will judge the world by this God.

1543
01:59:25,359 --> 01:59:27,479
Who is the god in this passage. According to Paul,

1544
01:59:28,640 --> 01:59:30,960
the man whom he raised from the dead is the God.

1545
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:35,920
So the iron is that the God of this passage,

1546
01:59:35,960 --> 01:59:41,960
according to Paul, is Jesus, not a Unitarian God. And

1547
01:59:42,119 --> 01:59:50,159
all the Roman Catholic oargmentation stops around here and tries

1548
01:59:50,279 --> 01:59:53,319
to make this or no, it stops at twenty eight.

1549
01:59:53,479 --> 01:59:57,279
It tries to make this a proof of generic theism,

1550
01:59:58,159 --> 02:00:01,840
leaving out twenty nine and thirt in thirty one, where

1551
02:00:01,920 --> 02:00:05,239
Paul flips the script and says, no, no, no. Your

1552
02:00:05,399 --> 02:00:08,600
demon that you think makes you a child of God

1553
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:14,039
and gives you divinity is a false God. It's a demon.

1554
02:00:14,880 --> 02:00:20,680
The real one is the man, Jesus Christ, who is God.

1555
02:00:23,079 --> 02:00:26,000
That's the point of the passage. You can't stop at

1556
02:00:26,039 --> 02:00:29,079
twenty eight, as these idiots are doing this dishonest nonsense

1557
02:00:29,600 --> 02:00:34,560
and ignore twenty nine, thirty and thirty one. Jesus is

1558
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:38,720
the logos, not Marcus Aurelius's logos. Who's the same word

1559
02:00:39,039 --> 02:00:41,399
to the same word, do must be the same thing?

1560
02:00:43,239 --> 02:00:46,960
Did the day word, do thedame thing, good, good, good, good, good, good,

1561
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:47,640
good good good.

1562
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:50,640
Speaker 1: Worship God and give him thanks as the one creator.

1563
02:00:51,039 --> 02:00:54,520
Those who sacrifice to idols worship demons because idols represent

1564
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:57,479
finite creatures, not the true, uncreated God.

1565
02:00:57,960 --> 02:01:01,640
Speaker 4: Oh wait a minute, so does the Kabbah and all

1566
02:01:01,720 --> 02:01:04,800
of the ideology of the Muslims also represent a demon.

1567
02:01:05,079 --> 02:01:09,640
So you see, Trent is confusing the idea of idolatry

1568
02:01:10,199 --> 02:01:16,920
only being something external in a statue. Trent aren't heresies

1569
02:01:17,039 --> 02:01:22,199
also mental idols and thus impediments to truly worshiping God.

1570
02:01:22,319 --> 02:01:25,359
That's the point that they don't understand. All right, let's

1571
02:01:25,399 --> 02:01:33,840
get ahead here or here he's gonna play met let's

1572
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:36,680
sho he says, the Samaritans are Unitarians. It's the same

1573
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:37,159
fundamental