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True Murder with your host, 56 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.319 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 57 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:47.560 Good Evening. 58 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:53.879 Two families mysteriously murdered under similar circumstances just a month apart. 59 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.840 One was memorialized in Truman Capoti's classic novel In Cold Blood, 60 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.719 the other was all but forgotten. Dick Hickcock and Perry 61 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:09.960 Smith confessed to the first, the November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine, 62 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:15.000 murder of a family of four in Holcombe, Kansas. Despite 63 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:20.120 remarkable coincidences between the two crimes, they denied committing the second, 64 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.919 the December nineteenth murder of a family of four in Osprey, Florida. 65 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:30.599 Over half a century later, a determined Florida detective undertakes 66 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.639 exceptional efforts to try to bring closure to the long 67 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.639 cold case. The book that were featuring this evening is 68 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:42.280 in Colder Blood, The True Story of the Walker Family Murder, 69 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:45.000 with my special guest, journalist and author J. T. 70 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:45.520 Hunter. 71 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.479 Welcome back to the program and thank you for agreeing 72 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:49.080 to this interview. 73 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:49.560 J T. 74 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.960 Hunter, Thanks for having back on Dan. 75 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:59.400 Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure. Now, how 76 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.159 did you come to write this book? 77 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.840 Well, I don't honestly remember when I first heard about 78 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.360 this case, but at some point in a couple of 79 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:18.199 years back, I came across a story about the murder 80 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:23.519 of the family in Ausbury, Florida, and I just started 81 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:30.319 doing some basic research into the case, tracking down different 82 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:36.720 newspaper accounts of the killings, and went over to Sarasota, 83 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.120 did some research there in the library and got, you know, 84 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:43.560 some older newspaper articles about it, and then ended up 85 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:48.240 going over to the Sarasota County Sheriff's office and getting 86 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.800 access to their files on the case. And you know, 87 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.319 the more I read about it, the more interested I 88 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:58.959 got in it, and you know, I planned on writing 89 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.199 about it. Eventually I assembled a lot of materials about it, 90 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.680 and it was something that I really thought was it 91 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.879 was an interesting case and of itself, and so I 92 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:12.720 planned on writing about it at some point. And then, 93 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:17.560 you know, several several years after that, I heard I 94 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.800 came across a recent story about a detective who I 95 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.240 had actually met when I was doing my initial research 96 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:28.120 on the case. She had come up with a theory 97 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:32.920 in the case, which ended up being the theory. That's that's, 98 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.920 you know, the the focal point of the book in 99 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.879 Colder Blood, right, right. 100 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:41.839 Well, let's get to that. 101 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.240 We won't completely go obviously through in Cold Blood. The 102 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:51.759 obviously the classic book that people are pretty familiarized with 103 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.839 a couple of movies in the book. But let's talk 104 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:59.319 about a completely different family. It just happens to be 105 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.680 a family of four. But this is the former Christine 106 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:07.720 Myers and Cliff Walker. He's a ranch hand at this 107 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:12.399 Palmer ranch and they live free, so he makes just a. 108 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:13.160 Few hundred dollars. 109 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.439 But in that time, in at nineteen fifty nine, and 110 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.519 they've got a couple kids, a three year old boy 111 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:20.720 named Jimmy and a little girl named Debbie. 112 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:21.680 Two. 113 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:28.360 And this is an osprey, you say, Southwest Florida, Sarasota County. 114 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.639 So now you open the book with their out looking 115 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.240 at new cars. So tell us a little bit about 116 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.920 the beautiful Christine Myers and the rugged Cliff Walker and 117 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.959 their little family, and a little bit about Osprey, South 118 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:47.959 Florida to introduce this story. And then just before Christmas, 119 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:50.920 they're out looking for a brand new car or a 120 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:51.800 new car anyway. 121 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.800 Yeah, as you mentioned, you know, the family lived in 122 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:01.360 and lived in Osprey, Florida, and that's that's not far 123 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:07.639 from Sarasota. They're in the Southwest Florida area. And you know, 124 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:11.839 back at the time, this is back in nineteen fifty nine, 125 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:17.000 that area was was you know, extremely rural, you know, 126 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:21.000 even more so than today obviously. And as you mentioned, 127 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.240 they lived in a house there on the on the ranch. 128 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:29.920 He Cliff the husband, he was a ranch hand there 129 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.879 on the Pumber ranch and he was able to live 130 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:36.519 in this house, you know, rent free as part of 131 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:39.279 his work there. And you know, they didn't have a 132 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.759 ton of money. They weren't weren't a wealthy family by 133 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:45.560 any stretch of the imagination. They were pretty pretty simple 134 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.759 kind of country family, you know that you might picture. 135 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:55.600 Cliff was kind of the consummate cowboy working the ranch there, 136 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.879 and you know, Christine. He had met her during high 137 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.519 school and they had you know, they got married shortly 138 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:09.199 after that and ended up having the two kids, Jimmy 139 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:12.560 who was who was three years old, and Debbie, who 140 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.839 was almost two at the time. And you know, Christine 141 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:21.120 was you know, she was an attractive woman and she was, 142 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.160 you know, people likened her figure to being, you know, 143 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.120 similar to that of Marilyn Monroe, that sort of figure. 144 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.559 And you know, she was a friendly, friendly person, outgoing 145 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:39.480 and you know, well liked by everybody. And Cliff was, 146 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.600 you know, kind of a little more reserved character, but 147 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.919 also someone who generally gone along well with everybody else. 148 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:55.320 And you know, was very much, very much a family man, 149 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:58.000 you know, interested in spending time with his kids and 150 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:04.360 enjoyed them. And they lived out there in that house 151 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:06.600 in the ranch for a couple of years prior to 152 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.440 the you know, the incident that's detailed in the book. 153 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.639 Now you talk about this day and on the nineteenth 154 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:22.639 of December nineteen fifty nine, and they're looking to trade 155 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:27.679 or looking at used cars or looking at cars. Take 156 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:32.000 us into that scene where they are looking for cars 157 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:37.200 and what do they do before we introduce the intersection 158 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:43.399 a very faithful intersection with mister Hickcock and mister Smith. 159 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.000 Okay, so on December nineteenth, they had a lot of errands. 160 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.440 You know, it was holiday season, Christmas was not too 161 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:55.000 far off, and so you know, there was a lot 162 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:58.159 going on, as you can imagine, just like there is 163 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.679 for most people on the holiday. And sure in that 164 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.519 particular day, they had a lot of errands that they 165 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.720 planned on doing, and in one of which was looking 166 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:13.240 at looking at new cars. They were interested in trading 167 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:18.159 for a car that would be more functional for them, 168 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.639 be better for them, you know, with a with a 169 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:24.919 growing family, the kids and whatnot. So they planned on 170 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:28.919 going into into Sarasota to look at cars, and you know, 171 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.000 they ended up doing that. They ended up going at 172 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.639 different used car lots in dealerships in Sarasota looking at 173 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.080 various cars, and you know, they ended up being a 174 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.600 particular particular type of car that sort of caught cliss 175 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:49.039 I was a nineteen fifty six Chevy was what he 176 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:55.799 was interested in in getting, apparently, and they they went 177 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:01.360 several places looking for him. 178 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:08.080 Now you introduce Hitcock and Smith and they're driving a vehicle, 179 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:13.240 and you also introduced the backgrounds of Smith and Hitcock 180 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:18.360 again to explain how this might have happened. This again, 181 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.320 this intersect between these two parties. So tell us a 182 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.799 little bit about Smith and Hitcock, their backgrounds, and what 183 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:29.919 they were driving reportedly around that time. 184 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.039 Okay, so a few days before the nineteenth of December, 185 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.000 which was the day the Walkers were out looking at cars, 186 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:44.399 it was a Saturday, So a few days before that, 187 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:50.360 Hickcock and Smith were making their way south. You know, 188 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:53.200 it was about a month earlier that they had killed 189 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.000 the Clutter family up there in Hokam, Kansas, and they 190 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.799 had been traveling around quite a bit since then. And 191 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:05.240 a few days before the nineteenth of December, they were 192 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:10.600 hiding down into Florida, and they were they had along 193 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:15.279 the way, they had apparently they had stolen a a car, 194 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.039 and you know, as it turned out, it was a 195 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.440 nineteen fifty six Chevy bel Air, which was the type 196 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.279 of car that Cliff was purportedly interested in had been 197 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.360 been eyeing while while the Walker family was out looking 198 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:32.639 around in car shopping. So Hickock and Smith had that 199 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.240 same type of car, that same make and model car, 200 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:40.919 and they were driving it down into Florida a few 201 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.240 days prior, and you know, they made their way down 202 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:50.159 through UH, through the Panhandle and UH in Tallahassee, and 203 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.799 they were they stopped at various various places along the way, 204 00:12:53.840 --> 00:13:00.000 and witnesses, you know, described them, and the descriptions met 205 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.679 that of Hickock and Smith, and you know, eventually they 206 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:08.519 made their way down into South Florida, and you know, 207 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:14.639 and it's partly detailed and in Truman Capode's in Cold Blood, 208 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:20.200 they ended up in Miami right around the time of 209 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.320 the Walker family was murdered. They ended up in Miami 210 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.320 during that during that time period and stayed at a 211 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.919 hotel there. And then that's where things get a little 212 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:33.840 more blurred a little bit. 213 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:34.639 Uh. 214 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.120 You know, the account in Capode's novel as to how 215 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.519 long they stayed in the hotel versus what the evidence 216 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.639 that investigators ended up finding out about how long they 217 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.799 stayed there and where they're you know, about where their 218 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:54.960 whereabouts were during the pertinent time period. 219 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.919 Yeah, And before we open up this, I guess you've 220 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.840 you've started to do this with Copodi and I won't 221 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.039 we won't go into any kind of critique of Copoti 222 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.639 and in Cold Blood, but you do say in this 223 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:15.840 that there may have been some motivation to downplay either 224 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:22.919 Smith and Hitcock's participation in this murder for publishing purposes, 225 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:28.600 for practical publishing purposes, because Copoti wanted a really suitable 226 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.879 ending for In cold Blood. Hence the executions to wrap 227 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:36.519 up the entire story that would have delayed the publishing 228 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:41.480 would have delayed the story. So anyway, it seems that 229 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.679 what this detective has put together and your book really 230 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:49.600 talks about is the again, a very detailed, point by 231 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:57.559 point reasonable analysis of the connection between these people that killed, 232 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.480 these two people that killed the Clutter family and the 233 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.000 people that of the Walker family. 234 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.720 And why. So let's get back to. 235 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:10.399 Smith and Hitcock. These guys met in prison, they got 236 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.960 out three days later, they went and killed the Clutter family. 237 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.960 Now you take us that they are a thousand miles 238 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:21.120 away in Florida, and then the Walker family. Again, what 239 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.000 is the how would it come and again you provide 240 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:26.720 this in the book. How would it come to be 241 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.279 that what was the background of Hitcock and what was 242 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:34.559 the background of Smith that would likely that would have 243 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.360 them come in contact with the Walker family that day 244 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.080 while they're out searching for a vehicle. 245 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:41.559 Well, Hickock and Smith. 246 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:48.960 They were known to have background working as a car painters, 247 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:53.000 car repair and you know, doing bodywork on cars and 248 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.279 that sort of thing. So they were known to stop 249 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:06.200 at dealership and car lots looking for work when they were, 250 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:09.919 you know, when they were on the run basically after 251 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.399 the killing the Clutter family. So they they had they 252 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:20.000 both had backgrounds and in automobile work, and you know, 253 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:21.559 that's what they ended up doing when they were down 254 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.120 there in Florida. They they stopped at a number of 255 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.960 dealerships and used car lots and various other places, you know, 256 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.200 inquiring about whether there you know, be work for repairing 257 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:41.000 cars or painting cars and that sort of thing. So 258 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:43.799 they were spotted, ya you know, a lot of people 259 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:49.799 that they came across. And the interesting thing as I 260 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.200 was researching the case was that the witnesses they came 261 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.360 into contact with, you know, at the time, they didn't 262 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:58.639 know obviously that it was hicc Hock and Smith that 263 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:05.359 they were encountering. But nonetheless, the descriptions they provided were really, 264 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.200 i mean, really remarkably. 265 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:10.640 Similar. 266 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:15.119 You know, they basically almost spot on to descriptions of 267 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:21.279 Smith and Hiccock, And especially when you take into account 268 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.640 what may have occurred at the at the walker House, 269 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.240 you know, when the when the family was murdered, and 270 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:34.279 the descriptions of the two men who, as I said, 271 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:37.000 you know, fit fit the descriptions of Hitcock and Smith 272 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:43.759 quite quite closely, would would seem to definitely support that 273 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:45.200 they were there at the walker house. 274 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:52.119 You provide that Hitcock was a mechanic also a used 275 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.160 card salesman for a certain time, which is a you know, 276 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:59.640 amazing connection to somebody that's going to trade a car 277 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.039 to to a family perspectively while they're looking at actual 278 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:08.079 car lots. And you also said that you also had 279 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.000 the other track record of all the witnesses saying that 280 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.920 they exchanged tires, they cashed in various car parts for 281 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.319 money when needed. So they were familiar with that kind 282 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.359 of salesmanship or the entrepreneurship or whatever you want to 283 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.759 call it. And they also knew obviously prices of things 284 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.319 involved with vehicles, so they were familiar with that. It's 285 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:32.839 likely that that's reasonable thing that they would be around 286 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.119 those types of places that this family could have bumped into. 287 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.960 These people. Now let's get to and also what we 288 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.039 missed here is that I guess what you're we don't 289 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.400 want to give away is the description of Hitcock, which 290 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.880 was repeated by a bunch of witnesses. So let's not 291 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:57.240 give that away. What that description very very specific detail 292 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:02.319 of Hitcock in these this is reports. Let's get back 293 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:06.319 to what happens with the Walker family in their pursuit 294 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.720 of this vehicle, at least in the reconstruction that you 295 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:11.720 put together, the likely reconstruction. 296 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.400 Okay, well, yeah, The theory was that during the course 297 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:23.920 of car shopping that day that they either directly encountered 298 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.599 Hickock and Smith and you know there and thereby Hickock 299 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.480 and Smith learned of Cliff Walker's interest in the very 300 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.680 same type of car that they were driving, and uh, 301 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:40.119 you know, in which which case needing money, it was 302 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:45.359 quite likely that they engaged him in discussions about either 303 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:49.680 selling the car to him or trading it in some capacity. 304 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:53.200 But in either event they could have directly encountered them 305 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:59.720 or uh, you know, in visiting the various dealerships. Having 306 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:05.079 the the backgrounds they did, Hickock and Smith, you know, 307 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.440 probably knew how to talk to the people that worked 308 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:12.160 there and probably heard from one of the car salesmen 309 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.880 or someone else there at the at the dealership, or 310 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.880 a car a lot that at the Walker family had 311 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.839 been around looking for the same type of car that 312 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:23.680 they were driving. You know, it could have been as 313 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.960 simple as, oh, you know, there was a family in 314 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.039 here just a little while ago looking for the same 315 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.200 type of car, or they were interested in getting, you know, 316 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.880 that sort of thing. So so one of those two ways, 317 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.039 either one of them would have been would have been 318 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.160 quite possible for Hickock and Smith to learn of the 319 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.319 Walker's interest in that type of car. 320 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.359 You have an interesting again eyewitness report from that time 321 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.400 is that there's a service station that they both use, 322 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:57.079 and he had called Cliff had used the phone at 323 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:01.160 someone's home and called at three point fifty no answer 324 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.359 three point fifty five. You say that Christine and the 325 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:10.039 kids were going to a service station, filled up, went home, 326 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.240 and then fifteen or twenty minutes later, Cliff arrived at 327 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:20.240 that same service station and then proceeded home. So take 328 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:25.200 us from again what the reconstruction seems to point to 329 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:29.079 in terms of positioning of the car before we talk 330 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:35.240 about the actual what must have happened that day to 331 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:35.880 this family. 332 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.039 Okay, well, yeah, I mean leading up to that day. 333 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.880 You know, obviously Higreck and Smith would have been traveling 334 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:48.400 down from up north down through Florida. And you know, 335 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.200 on their way down through Florida, they were spot at 336 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:53.559 different spots. You know, on the seventeenth, a couple of 337 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:58.960 days before the murder, they were spotted in Tallahassee. I 338 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.599 think you may have mentioned the you know, they ended 339 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.920 up selling the new tires they had in their car 340 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.880 in exchange for some money and a set of older tires. 341 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.400 And then you know, they were spotted further down in 342 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:23.680 the Sarasota area at a station asking about anybody needing 343 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.359 auto painting and that sort of thing. And the same 344 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.960 day they were spotted asking a resident down there in 345 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.119 the Sarasota area if he wanted them to repair a 346 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.000 dent that they noticed on his car. And then they 347 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:47.000 checked into the Miami Hotel on December eighteenth, the evening 348 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:55.200 December eighteenth, and according to the hotel records, they ended 349 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.559 up checking out of that hotel the very next morning, 350 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.359 even though they had paid for h think about a 351 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.440 week's worth of you know, rent, basically ahead of time. 352 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.559 For some reason, they decided they wanted to leave, so 353 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.599 they left the next morning, they asked for refund and 354 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:16.640 weren't given one, but but left anyway, and a couple 355 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.400 of men matching their description were spotted in a department 356 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.480 store in Sarasota later that day on the nineteenth. And 357 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.160 you know, while that was going on, the Walker family 358 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.680 had done their car shopping on the nineteenth and that's, 359 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.440 you know, obviously the day that these two parties could 360 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.240 have intersected there in Sarasota, the Hickock and Smith coming 361 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:44.279 up from Miami and the Walker family coming down from Ostbury, 362 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:49.519 and they definitely could have intersected there in Sarasota. And then, 363 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:54.599 as you mentioned, let's see the Walker family returning from Sarasota. 364 00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:58.759 What happened is they had stopped by a friend's house 365 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:09.759 and spent some time there, and eventually Cliff was was 366 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:13.519 staying there to get some some hay or some feed 367 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:17.640 for the cattle that they they maintained over there at 368 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:23.000 their house, and Christine left early to go home and 369 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:27.720 ahead of them, so she left, as you said, she 370 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.400 stopped at this gas station not far from where they lived, 371 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:35.880 and Cliff followed a little bit after about you know, 372 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.640 I think it was about fifteen twenty minutes approximately after her, 373 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:41.839 and he had the two kids. He had Jimmy and 374 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:44.880 Debbie with him. He stopped by that same gas station 375 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.279 on the way home, so witnesses, you know, spotted them. 376 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:53.119 And then so the the kind of the reconstructed events, 377 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.279 you know, placed Cliff getting home with the kids somewhere 378 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:00.279 around a quarter to five, around four forty five in 379 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:05.039 the evening on the nineteenth of December, with Christine having 380 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:08.319 arrived home a little bit before that, you know, about 381 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:09.599 fifteen twenty minutes or so. 382 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.359 It's interesting you made that correction that I made a 383 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.720 mistake where the kids were with her, they were rather 384 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.160 with him, which is just a little less horrifying. When 385 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:30.960 we talk about this one question in the Clutter family, 386 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:32.920 we will get to all the comparisons, but I want 387 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:34.559 to get to this one now because I think it 388 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:35.279 will be important. 389 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.400 Is that. 390 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:44.759 When Hitcock and Smith killed the Clutter family, you talk 391 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.920 about and in cold blood talks about Smith fighting or 392 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:57.720 trying to stop Hitcock from raping Missus Clutter. Now missus 393 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.000 Walker gets home first, and we talk about the encounter 394 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:05.119 likely with these guys. And I asked you about the 395 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:08.319 positioning of the car. It looked like what had happened 396 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.559 in terms of the parking of the vehicles and what 397 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.799 that was an indication of. And then I alluded to 398 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:21.240 what happens with missus Walker, So can you tell us? 399 00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:26.039 Yeah, so you know, according to the reconstruction again of 400 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:35.680 what happened, Christine, according to friends and family that knew 401 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:40.400