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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're headed back up to Moscow where we're

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<v Speaker 1>diving right back into the unredacted IgG transcripts, and once

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<v Speaker 1>again it's Ann Taylor doing the questioning, and this time

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<v Speaker 1>the witness is Daniel Hellwig. And like in the previous episodes,

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<v Speaker 1>when I say question, that's Ann Taylor and answer is

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<v Speaker 1>mister Hellwig, Miss Taylor. The next witness is Daniel Hellwig

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<v Speaker 1>the clerk. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the

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<v Speaker 1>testimony you're about to give now before the court will

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<v Speaker 1>be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>Mister Hellwig? I do. The court go ahead, Miss Taylor.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Daniel Hellwig having been duly sworn testified as follows,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Taylor. Good morning, answer, Good morning. Question. Will you

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<v Speaker 1>please state your full name? Answer? My name is Daniel Hellwig.

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<v Speaker 1>Question what do you do for a living Answer? I'm

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<v Speaker 1>currently the friend director at Inner Mountain Forensics. We're a

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<v Speaker 1>five oh one three c nonprofit and our main mission

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<v Speaker 1>is pushing forward new and cutting edge DNA technology, assisting

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<v Speaker 1>different agencies, law enforcement and otherwise with education, training and

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<v Speaker 1>consultation on those. Our main focus right now is to

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<v Speaker 1>help fund these cases specifically, and most of our mission

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<v Speaker 1>is revolved around forensic investigative genetic genealogy or FIG. Question

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<v Speaker 1>when you say help fund these cases as a nonprofit,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you mean? Answer a variety of different We

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<v Speaker 1>actually allow people to submit cases that they may be

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<v Speaker 1>having problems getting the revenue and resources to move it forward,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we evaluate it. So this could be We've

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<v Speaker 1>worked and tried to assist, and mainly I think most

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<v Speaker 1>of our work is in smaller agencies that don't have

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<v Speaker 1>nearly as many resources to further their case work with

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<v Speaker 1>this technology. But we've done work with law enforcement, medical

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<v Speaker 1>examiners offices, and defense, especially the Innocence Project. Question what

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<v Speaker 1>did you do before you worked at this nonprofit? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I've been a forensic DNA for twenty plus years. I

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<v Speaker 1>have a bachelor's in biology and chemistry from Viturbo University

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<v Speaker 1>and a master's in forensic science from Marshall University. I

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<v Speaker 1>started my career at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory

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<v Speaker 1>as an intern there and moved on to various public laboratories.

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<v Speaker 1>I worked in forensic DNA at the New Mexico Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Public Safety and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

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<v Speaker 1>I then started in the private sector. I worked for

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<v Speaker 1>Sorens and Forensics in Salt Lake City, Utah, in a

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<v Speaker 1>variety of different jobs there. Initially I was a DNA

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<v Speaker 1>technical leader, essentially the quality manager of the DNA section,

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<v Speaker 1>but moved into executive management as the laboratory director. In

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen. I began with the inter Mountain Forensics as

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<v Speaker 1>a founder. I'll refer to that sometimes as IMF. We

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<v Speaker 1>were up until July of last year. Our mission was

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<v Speaker 1>not only funding cases, education outreach, but also we established

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<v Speaker 1>and operated a fully functioning forensic DNA lab our. Mission

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<v Speaker 1>in that realm was to again continue with cutting edge

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<v Speaker 1>DNA technology and specifically we sought to operate and utilize

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<v Speaker 1>a forensic investigative genetic genealogy support laboratory. Question what does

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<v Speaker 1>that mean? Answer? So our goal in this We had

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<v Speaker 1>a fully function in laboratory in that we did what

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<v Speaker 1>I'll call traditional forensics STRs as mentioned previously, but we

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<v Speaker 1>also wanted to implement this new technology forensic investigative genetic

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy and laboratory processes behind it. Specifically in this case,

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about forensic snips single nucleotide polymorphisms the court,

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<v Speaker 1>so you need to slow down a little bit. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't enunciate particularly well and so you need to go

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<v Speaker 1>slower the witness. I promise question. Let me see if

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<v Speaker 1>I can understand and your work right before the five

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<v Speaker 1>oh one C three getting into the forensic investigative genetic

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy world. Do I understand that your work was to

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<v Speaker 1>do the part all the long steps until you get

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<v Speaker 1>to the SNP and then it would be handed off

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<v Speaker 1>for a genealogist to do the other part of the work. Answer.

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<v Speaker 1>Beyond identifying SNPs, it's to generate and upload file an

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<v Speaker 1>end product that would then be handed off to an

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<v Speaker 1>investigative genetic genealogist to continue the research. So essentially our

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<v Speaker 1>laboratory started had the ability to start from sample from

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<v Speaker 1>evidentary item to DNA extraction, which is essentially popping cells open,

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<v Speaker 1>pulling DNA out and washing all the residual material away.

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<v Speaker 1>And then traditional forensics where you're doing short tandem repeats

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<v Speaker 1>repetitive DNA that repeats over and over and you simply

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<v Speaker 1>count them to our specific targets which was SNP's where

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<v Speaker 1>we did DNA sequencing, looking at all the different letters

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<v Speaker 1>within the genome and pulling out the relevant single new

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<v Speaker 1>ucleotide polymorphisms that were specifically associated through genealogy, generating through

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty extensive process what I'll call an upload file.

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<v Speaker 1>These are files that contain all of these SNPs single

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<v Speaker 1>nucleotide polymorphisms that contain the information that's needed for upload

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<v Speaker 1>into these databases. Okay, I'm going to go back a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit with you. So in the traditional str we've

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<v Speaker 1>heard some about that today. You said splitting the DNA

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<v Speaker 1>open and washing it. Answer. Yes, that's essentially the very

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<v Speaker 1>simplified version of a DNA extraction. You can think of

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<v Speaker 1>this biological material, these cells as little tiny water filled

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<v Speaker 1>balloons with nuclear material with DNA inside of it. DNA extraction,

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<v Speaker 1>similar to previous testimony, is just popping those cells open,

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<v Speaker 1>pulling the DNA out, and washing all of the cellular garbage.

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<v Speaker 1>If you will out to generate an extract, it can

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<v Speaker 1>then go down several different pathways depending on what you need.

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<v Speaker 1>Traditional forensic testing STRs short tandem repeats is taking that

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<v Speaker 1>DNA and looking at repetitive sequences and counting how many

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<v Speaker 1>repeats are there. The best way I can explain this

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<v Speaker 1>is if you had the word cat and that was

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<v Speaker 1>the specific DNA letters that you were looking for. You

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<v Speaker 1>could repeat the word cat eight times. That would be

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<v Speaker 1>short tandem repeat cat repeat at A times. I would

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<v Speaker 1>call that an eight. You have DNA from mom and dad,

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<v Speaker 1>so you have two copies of this, So you have

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<v Speaker 1>an eight and maybe another eight from mom and dad.

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<v Speaker 1>The problem there is that you're actually looking at the

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<v Speaker 1>specific letters. So a three letter word like dog would

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<v Speaker 1>be completely different. We've got an eight repeat STR and

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<v Speaker 1>an eight repeat str that have different sequences but still

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<v Speaker 1>have the same short tandem repeat number. SMPS single nucleotide

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<v Speaker 1>polymorphism is actually looking at the DNA sequence. So if

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<v Speaker 1>we were to look at an SNP, let's say we

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<v Speaker 1>were particularly interested in the A and cat, we would

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<v Speaker 1>sequence that DNA and then go into the sequence and say,

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<v Speaker 1>at this location we have an A, and we have

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<v Speaker 1>an A from mom and maybe an A from Dad.

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<v Speaker 1>That is the generation of an SNP profile. Same concept,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're dialing down to the specific letter. In question

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<v Speaker 1>question have you done both kinds of work? Answer? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>In my before IMF I worked at several different laboratories,

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<v Speaker 1>all using traditional forensics SDRs and ysdrs. Question if I

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<v Speaker 1>understood that part about the water balloon right, It's one

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<v Speaker 1>water balloon, same water balloon, same process of popping it open,

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<v Speaker 1>stripping out the stuff you don't need, and then it's

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<v Speaker 1>where you go from there that makes the difference between

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<v Speaker 1>an SDR and an SNP. Ultimately. Answer correct, It's all

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<v Speaker 1>associating to the same DNA extract, and that's similar to

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<v Speaker 1>what the Idaho State Police Lab does as well. Question so,

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<v Speaker 1>the process of getting the DNA water balloon open so

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<v Speaker 1>that you can strip things off, does it matter how

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<v Speaker 1>you do that? Answer? Well, there's a variety of different

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<v Speaker 1>ways to do that, but in forensics there are some

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<v Speaker 1>specific and kind of common tools that we use that

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<v Speaker 1>the process to get there can vary somewhat. However, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a fairly standard practice to use some of the same

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<v Speaker 1>tools within the forensic DNA community. Question I think I

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<v Speaker 1>understand the repeats as looking for patterns, but the SNP

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<v Speaker 1>is looking at the individual characteristic answer individual letter nucleotide.

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<v Speaker 1>So if DNA is made up of billions and billions

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<v Speaker 1>of letters, STR is looking at repetitive sequences and counting

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<v Speaker 1>the repeats, and SNP is looking at specific letters, specific

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<v Speaker 1>nucleotides on that genome. Question. All right, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the whole process. How you get from an

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<v Speaker 1>SNP to splitting the water balloon open. I'm with you there,

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<v Speaker 1>So what do you do after we get that stripped

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<v Speaker 1>off answer? If we're going down the path of forensic SNPs.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a few different ways you can do that. There

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<v Speaker 1>is one way is essentially targeted practice. We're looking at

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<v Speaker 1>SNPs in question, and we're going to focus on those

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<v Speaker 1>SNPs and do what is called an amplification PCR, basically

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<v Speaker 1>a DNA photocopier of that sequence that specific letter and

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit around it to specifically target an SNP

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<v Speaker 1>in question. The other technique is something more attuned to

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<v Speaker 1>the whole genome sequencing. Again, there's a variety of different

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<v Speaker 1>ways you can do this, but the idea here is

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to sequence the entire genome, the entire length

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<v Speaker 1>of DNA on this particular extract, and then we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to pull out the SNPs that we need, the relevant

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<v Speaker 1>ones that we're looking for. This can be done. I

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<v Speaker 1>will refer to that as whole genome sequencing, acknowledging the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that there's a variety of different ways you can

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<v Speaker 1>accomplish that. Once you sequence the DNA, it comes off

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<v Speaker 1>of the instrument in question, and there's several different instruments

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<v Speaker 1>you can use, but for the most part, it turns

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<v Speaker 1>into raw data, and that raw data is typically found

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<v Speaker 1>in a file called the fastq file. This raw data

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<v Speaker 1>is massive, it has an insane amount of information, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's not refined in a way that we can actually

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<v Speaker 1>utilize it. So the steps from taking the raw data

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<v Speaker 1>to actually getting that upload file. That end product for

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<v Speaker 1>upload into these databases is bioinformatics, essentially a software that

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<v Speaker 1>goes into this massive amounts of data and pulls out

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we're looking for. Question, is all the

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<v Speaker 1>software the same or all bioinformatics programs? Is that all

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<v Speaker 1>the same? Answer? No, Each, as far as I can tell,

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<v Speaker 1>each laboratory has their own version of bioinformatics that they

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<v Speaker 1>use to get the sequence data into usable results. Question

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<v Speaker 1>if I understand where we are, We popped open the balloon,

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<v Speaker 1>we put the DNA in a sequencer, created a raw

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<v Speaker 1>data file called fastq file, and now we need to

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<v Speaker 1>do bioinformatics to get an SNP answer. Right question, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what happens from there? Answer? So in the bioinformatic pathway,

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<v Speaker 1>you're doing multiple things. Again, you can think of this

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<v Speaker 1>as a DNA sequence that the sequencer has given you

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<v Speaker 1>a truckload of information. They're essentially puzzle pieces. The first

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<v Speaker 1>thing that we're going to do is reemerging. So we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to take all the puzzle pieces that are the

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<v Speaker 1>same and we're going to use them to paint the

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<v Speaker 1>best picture of that information. You can think of this

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<v Speaker 1>as if we're sequencing the DNA this human genome multiple times,

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully ten, fifteen, thirty times. Our samples in forensics are

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<v Speaker 1>typically difficult, so we don't tend to get that much

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<v Speaker 1>information or that level. Essentially, we're trying to sequence this

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<v Speaker 1>entire genome multiple times to add more context in what

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<v Speaker 1>we're getting e merging. We're talking in DNA sequences that

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<v Speaker 1>we have multiple copies of, and we're combining them into

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<v Speaker 1>one the best fit for that particular fragment of DNA.

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<v Speaker 1>While we still have puzzle pieces to put together. The

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<v Speaker 1>next thing is mapping the bioinformatic way will map all

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<v Speaker 1>these puzzle pieces and put them into the human genome

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<v Speaker 1>in the way that they're supposed to be that takes

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<v Speaker 1>multiple fragments and lines them up in the right manner.

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<v Speaker 1>Once it's mapped, we are going to start to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to find the particular SNPs that we're looking for.

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<v Speaker 1>We have a human genome with a whole bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>different letters in different positions. We can say, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>these are the relevant SNPs that we're looking for. Genealogy

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<v Speaker 1>based informative markers. We want to pull these SNPs out,

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<v Speaker 1>see what the call is there, and send that up

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<v Speaker 1>to an upload file. In some cases we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>all of the information. We're missing some sequence data. We've

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<v Speaker 1>maybe gotten eighty percent of the genome and most of

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<v Speaker 1>the SNPs are missing. There's a process to fill in

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<v Speaker 1>those gaps called imputation. Imputation is in most bioinformatic packages. Essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>we know that the letters are in front of this

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<v Speaker 1>particular spot we're missing, and we know that the letters

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<v Speaker 1>are behind what this particular spot that is missing. We

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<v Speaker 1>can look at all the human genomes and impute estimate

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<v Speaker 1>that most likely the letter in the position that we're

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<v Speaker 1>looking for. Once we're through imputation and calls, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to use Bioinformatic package to pull out smps that we're

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<v Speaker 1>looking for and put them into the format that will

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<v Speaker 1>be usable for upload into these databases. At IMF, we

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<v Speaker 1>actually generated two files, one specifically to ged match pro

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<v Speaker 1>database and one specific to the family Tree ft DNA database.

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<v Speaker 1>In these files, ged match Pro we typically got around

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<v Speaker 1>five hundred and fifty thousand plus SNPs that we were

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<v Speaker 1>looking for, and the Family Tree DNA database upwards of

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<v Speaker 1>six hundred to six hundred and fifty thousand smps. The

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<v Speaker 1>end product there though, is a text file or some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of upload file which could be in text format

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<v Speaker 1>or Excel format, but essentially what it is is a

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<v Speaker 1>file with all of these smps the calls at the

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<v Speaker 1>SNP locations in a format that allows them to be

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<v Speaker 1>uploaded into the database. At this point we hand it

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<v Speaker 1>off to the investigative genetic genealogist to do the research.

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<v Speaker 1>Question the upload databases you mentioned to ged match pro

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<v Speaker 1>and Family Tree DNA answer, that's correct, question. Why did

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<v Speaker 1>you mention those answer? Those are the two databases that

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<v Speaker 1>allow law enforcement searches. They have specific terms of services

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<v Speaker 1>that give a portion of that database, those that have

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<v Speaker 1>consented to do so to law enforcement to search for

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<v Speaker 1>human remains in some cases and in criminal cases. All Right,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to wrap up right there, and in the

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<v Speaker 1>next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick

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<v Speaker 1>up with question so in this lab process to get

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<v Speaker 1>to the SNP. If you'd like to contact me, you

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<v Speaker 1>can do that at Bobby Kapuchi at ProtonMail dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>That's bo b b Y c ap u Cci at

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<v Speaker 1>ProtonMail dot com, or if you prefer, you can find

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<v Speaker 1>me on x at Bobby Underscore c ap u Cci.

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<v Speaker 1>All of the links that go with this episode can

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<v Speaker 1>be found in the description box.