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Every 33 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 34 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:35.200 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 35 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:38.079 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 36 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.200 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 37 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.920 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 38 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.159 History and the authors that are written about them. On 39 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:59.480 August seventeenth, nineteen ninety two, eleven year old Holly Staker 40 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:01.920 was baby's sitting a five year old boy and his 41 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:04.920 two and a half year old sister. After eating pizza, 42 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:07.400 went out to play at eight pm. When the neighbor 43 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:09.960 noticed he was still outside, The boy said he was 44 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.719 walcked out. The neighbor took the boy to his mother 45 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:16.520 at her job at a nearby tavern. The mother, John Engelbret, 46 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.039 contacted Holly's mother and the two of them went to 47 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.240 the apartment, where they found the two and a half 48 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.919 year old girl unharmed, but Holly was dead. In the bedroom, 49 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:27.000 she had been stabbed twenty seven times and brutally raped. 50 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:29.840 In the days after the crime, Juan Rivera was jailed 51 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.520 on an unrelated burglary charge. Another inmate told authorities that 52 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.680 Rivera told them he knew who had killed Holly. Police 53 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:40.039 focused on Rivera, then just a few days short of 54 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:44.560 his twentieth birthday. Ultimately, Rivera signed two confessions to the crimes. 55 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:48.759 He later testified at a pre trial hearings that he 56 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.039 was coerced into confessing and had nothing to do with 57 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.840 the rape and murder. Engelbrett, whose children Holly was babysitting, 58 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:01.280 had initially told police, told police after Rivera was arrested 59 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:03.520 that he had approached her outside her apartment on the 60 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:06.280 night of the crime and asked what's happening. She later 61 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.759 recanted that identification, however, and said she believed Rivera was 62 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.319 not Holly's killer. In nineteen ninety three, Rivera was sentenced 63 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:16.680 to life in prison. That sentence and the conviction were 64 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.039 set aside in nineteen ninety six by Illinois appellate court, 65 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:22.360 which ruled the judge in the case had made errors. 66 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:26.400 In two thousand and five, new DNA testing excluded Ron 67 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.360 Rivera as a killer rapist, prompting a third trial, with 68 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.879 Juan his family, defense attorneys and supporters believing in his innocence, 69 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:38.080 confident that one would finally be released. On May eighth, 70 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.680 two thousand and nine, Juan was convicted of Holly Staker's 71 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.719 rape and murdered yet again, even though DNA excluded him. 72 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.080 Prosecutor site Juan's confession as proof of his guilt. Free 73 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.960 Juan Rivera joining me is my special guest journalist and 74 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.960 executive director of the Center on Wrongful Convictions, the north 75 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:05.000 Western Center on Wrongful Convictions. Welcome to the program, Rob Warden. 76 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:07.800 Happy to be with you. 77 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.199 Thank you very much for joining me on this program. Now, 78 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.120 you're the as I mentioned in the intro. You're the 79 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:20.519 executive director director of Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions in Chicago, Illinois. 80 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:26.120 You are also award winning legal affairs journalists who have 81 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:30.160 been the editor and publisher of Chicago Lawyer magazine during 82 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.759 the eighties, and you've exposed more than a score of 83 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.040 wrongoful convictions in Illinois, including the cases of six innocent 84 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.120 men that were sentenced to death. In the seventies, you 85 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:43.199 worked as an investigative reporter and foreign correspondent editor at 86 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.279 Chicago Daily News. And you worked as a political issues 87 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:52.079 consultant executive officer at the Cook County State's Attorney's Office. 88 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:56.279 So you have a lot of experience journalistically, you have 89 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.560 some experience politically, and so you don't come this like 90 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:02.839 I had mentioned and when I spoke to from any 91 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.800 kind of naivety whatsoever. How did you get involved with 92 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:12.000 this organization? When did you become involved with this organization? Rob? 93 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:16.680 Well, you know, in nineteen ninety eight, we had a 94 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:21.240 conference at Northwestern University called the National Conference on Longual 95 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:25.879 Conviction than the Death Penalty. This was, you know, an 96 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:31.240 amazing event, and I think that we basically persuaded much 97 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.600 of the media at that point that this was really 98 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:38.519 a serious problem that we were convicting people of crimes 99 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:42.839 they didn't commit. So we had thirty people here who 100 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:47.399 had been convicted and sentenced to death for crimes that 101 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:52.720 they didn't commit. And although thirty might seem like a 102 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:58.399 fairly small number in the scheme of things, once the 103 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.360 media got to in view these people and see that 104 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.839 these were genuine wrongful convictions, it sort of changed the dynamic. 105 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:15.879 And then that is the you know, we grew out 106 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.439 of that, okay. 107 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:25.000 And now your journalistic investigative journalism in your background in 108 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:30.480 that you obviously saw the good, the bad, and the ugly, 109 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.759 but you saw particularly cases that where you saw you 110 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:37.560 thought there were wrongful convictions, and that's what helped you 111 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.120 make your decision to become involved, much more involved. We'll say, 112 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:47.480 now this one Rivera case. When did this come to 113 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:51.560 the attention of your organization? When and why? 114 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:56.720 Well, we got involved in this case only in two 115 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:01.800 thousand and six. This was, you know, long after Juan 116 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:07.920 Rivera had been convicted. The first time we thought, you know, 117 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:13.040 that this was a compelling case of actual innocence. We 118 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.800 had done a great deal of work on the issue 119 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:21.720 of false confessions, and it appeared that the false confession 120 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:30.079 on which this conviction was a base was you know, 121 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:35.279 just really you know, incredible. Now, you know, of all 122 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:42.000 of the issues that lead to erroneous convictions, the one 123 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.120 that is most difficult for most of us to comprehend 124 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:46.279 is the false confession. 125 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:47.079 Right. 126 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.279 Well, you know, we can't imagine that we never confess 127 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.160 to a crime we didn't commit, and therefore we can't 128 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:58.639 imagine that anyone else would either. But the psychological techniques 129 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.959 that are taught in police academies and that lead to 130 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:11.079 false confessions are really, if not ubiquitous, at least certainly 131 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:19.480 quite common. And this case, this confession appeared to have 132 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:24.720 all of the hallmarks of a false confession. So we 133 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:29.680 got involved in the case. And because the victim was 134 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:32.399 an eleven year old girl, she'd been raped and murdered, 135 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:38.039 and there was DNA evidence in the case, we got 136 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:45.399 the DNA evidence tested and Juan Rivera was eliminated as 137 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:51.039 the source of the DNA evidence in this case. Furthermore, 138 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:56.840 you know, one had been on electronic home monitoring at 139 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.840 the time the crime occurred, he had been involved in 140 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:05.639 a murder, in a burglary, he had broken into a 141 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:13.759 car to steal a stereo, and consequently, you know, he 142 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:17.559 couldn't possibly have committed the crime. Those are the are 143 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:23.200 the issues that that basically got us involved. Now, once 144 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.639 we got to DNA and then you know, Juan got 145 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:32.080 a new trial. We were shocked that the state's attorney 146 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:36.919 in Lake County, Illinois decided that he was going to 147 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:40.799 retry the case and we went to trial with it. 148 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:48.799 And because of a number of pre trial rulings that 149 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:54.519 were adverse to our position and we think absolutely unreasonable 150 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:57.879 and illegal. Uh, they were able to persuade a jury 151 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.080 for the third time time that Juan Rivera had committed 152 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:09.159 this crime. The this is not just a matter of 153 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:15.440 prosecutorial overreaching. It's a matter of absolute, incredible, you know, 154 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:25.279 judicial error. One could not possibly have committed this crime 155 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:29.320 because of the electronic home monitoring device. He was two 156 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.000 miles away at the time the crime occurred. And yet 157 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:38.039 the judge allowed the prosecution to tell the jury that 158 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:46.799 sometimes the electronic home monitoring equipment had malfunctioned. Now, there 159 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:51.039 was absolutely no issue in this case. There was no 160 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:54.600 indication in this case that the electronic home monitoring equipment 161 00:10:54.679 --> 00:11:01.600 that one had had malfunction. In fact, it you know, 162 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:06.279 there are tests that occur routinely, and a few hours 163 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.720 before the crime and a few hours after the crime, 164 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:14.919 his equipment was functioning properly. And yet the judge allowed 165 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:19.840 the prosecution to suggest that. And then when we could 166 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:26.360 show that the DNA didn't match, that he could not 167 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.279 possibly have been responsible for this, the judge allowed the 168 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:37.440 prosecution to, you know, suggest two things were just absolutely preposterous. First, 169 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.519 that the DNA sample could have been contaminated. Now that 170 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.440 it was absolutely impossible, because the DNA in this case 171 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:51.600 came from sperm heads, and you can't change the DNA 172 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:56.600 of a sperm head no matter what. It's impossible. The 173 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.080 only way you could do it would be to have 174 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.480 inserted a sperm from someone else into the sample that 175 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:08.559 was tested. That's ridiculous. The other explanations prosecute that the 176 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:13.320 judge allowed the prosecution to advance was that this eleven 177 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:19.360 year old victim might have been sexually active, and therefore 178 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.120 the DNA that was recovered from from inside her body 179 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:32.519 might have occurred from a consensual sexual encounter that was 180 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:40.039 unrelated to the crime itself. That was another preposterous suggestion, 181 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.559 and yet the judge allowed them to do it. And 182 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.440 what we have in Lake County, Illinois, and this is 183 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:51.399 a county just north of Cook it's between you know, 184 00:12:51.559 --> 00:13:00.120 Chicago and the and the Wisconsin line is just, you know, 185 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:04.840 really a conspiracy on behalf of you know, what's called 186 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.080 the you know, the Lake County Major Crimes task Force. 187 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:13.799 The state's attorney there, a man named Mike Waller, and 188 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.279 and of course in the court, I mean it's all 189 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:21.200 three of them. It is a criminal conspiracy. And I 190 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:26.399 don't make those kinds of allegations lightly, but it's just 191 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.799 it's simply outrageous and there ought to be a federal 192 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:38.159 investigation on all levels in Lake County, Illinois. It's simply 193 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.480 unconscionable what's been going on there. 194 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.240 Well, those are like you mentioned that, those are heavy 195 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.679 claims when you're saying conspiracy, so you have to have 196 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:49.840 some evidence. So we're we're going to go through a 197 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:52.639 little bit of that. I have some questions for you, sure, 198 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.639 just one. I think a lot of people watch TV 199 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:58.080 we see DNA, but we uh, this is what I'm 200 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.879 interested in. Just to start, when you talked about how 201 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:08.600 the judge allowed the prosecution to introduce the theory, because 202 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.320 I've certainly there was there no evidence that there was 203 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:16.480 any consensual sexual relationship that the eleven year old had, right, 204 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.080 there was no evidence of that, but there was it 205 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.600 was made the theory that she could have had consensual 206 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.399 relationship and there could have been another DNA semen sample there. 207 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:30.120 Why on TV you would see that there would be 208 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.240 a clear separation when they did the testing between the 209 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.559 two DNA samples. Why was there how was this theory 210 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:41.559 supposed to work. His DNA was still not Juan Rivera's 211 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:47.200 DNA was not found that in her body. I don't 212 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:52.559 understand how that DNA could have been interfered with from 213 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.879 another possible semen donor what can you explain it to us? 214 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:01.080 I mean, it simply could not have. And that's one 215 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.120 of the things that's so you know, outrageous about what 216 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.919 the judge allowed the prosecution to get away with suggesting 217 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.840 to the jury in this case. And you know, one 218 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.600 of the and of course, you know what the real 219 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:23.279 problem was here, that was the confession itself. And I 220 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.600 think that most jurors, you know, like most of us, 221 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:32.159 can't imagine why somebody would confess to a crime, you know, 222 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.720 he or she did not commit. And in this case, 223 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.360 the confession followed, you know, twenty seven hours of interrogation. 224 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.159 I mean, that was the marathon session. But Juan had 225 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:51.679 been in custody for several days. He had been questioned repeatedly, 226 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.279 he had been lied to, he had been told that 227 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.840 he had failed a polygraph test. And it's point, I mean, 228 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.120 you know, he just basically gave up. Now you know, 229 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.840 he signed ultimately two confessions. The first confession made no 230 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.039 sense at all. There was no there were no facts 231 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.639 in the confession that related to the crime. And when 232 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.519 the prosecution, when the prosecutor, this is Mike Waller, the 233 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.039 state's attorney of Lake County, Illinois, saw this first confession. 234 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.720 He told the police, this is no good. 235 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.039 Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've 236 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:29.759 gotten lucky? 237 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.559 Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess. 238 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.559 Ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do 239 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.279 I have to say? Yes? You do? 240 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.960 In the car before my kid's pta meeting? 241 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.600 Really, yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 242 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:45.919 I never win in tell Well. 243 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:46.360 There you have it. 244 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.200 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot 245 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.000 com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? 246 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:52.799 No, We're just necessary. 247 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.279 Remember gonna be my law eighteen plus urns conditions plus fifty. 248 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.440 Yes, you got to go back and get something more 249 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.679 that that that has some facts of the crime in it. Well, 250 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.440 indeed they went back and they got a confession that 251 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.680 had all of the facts of the crime in it. 252 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.279 But these were facts that were known only that were 253 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:18.160 known not only to the killer, but were known to 254 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:24.240 the police as well. And then one of the amazing 255 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.039 one of the awful things about this in the final 256 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:32.319 trial is that the police who took this confession got 257 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:38.279 on the stand and said that wan Vera revealed facts 258 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:43.640 that they did not know until he revealed them. It 259 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:49.920 was an absolute lie. There is absolutely no question that 260 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.839 there was no fact in this confession that was not 261 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.599 known to the police. And when I say, you know that, 262 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.079 and I'm telling you, the judge in this case was 263 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:08.279 just absolutely corrupt. He allowed, he refused to allow the defense, 264 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.599 uh to introduce evidence that the police had all of 265 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.720 this evidence. He let them get away with that lie. 266 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:23.160 He covered it up. And it is an absolute disgrace 267 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:27.359 to the to the to the system of criminal justice 268 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:31.880 that we have in the United States. Uh, it's it's 269 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.240 just amazing. I can't tell you how bad it is. 270 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:41.880 Lake County, Illinois is an absolute cesspool. Now judicial corruption. 271 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.559 Sorry for interruption. Now, I want to say, you know, 272 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.279 when you talk about corrupt corruption, you talk about conspiracy, 273 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.519 You're going to have to explain a little bit more 274 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.640 for our for our audience here. What would be because basically, 275 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.319 you can't get to the motivation behind why these people this, 276 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.039 but you can speculate. I mean, certainly you talk about 277 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.079 the police why in this particular case, because we're talking 278 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.119 about now motivation changes from the first trial to the 279 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.000 second trial, the third trial. What was the motivation in 280 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.079 the very first place? Was what was the political climate 281 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.960 at the time when Juan Rivera was arrested. But more importantly, 282 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.359 we haven't fully explained whatsoever the conditions on which Juan 283 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.920 Rivera did confess, how he came to the police's attention. 284 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.759 He didn't get arrested by virtue of an investigation by 285 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.279 the police, right, it became more of other circumstances. So 286 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.200 please explain those circumstances, the jail house informat that came forward. 287 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.519 Was there any reward for his involvement, Was there any 288 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.240 incentive that he potentially could have had, any reason why 289 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:49.960 he would have said this if it were not true? 290 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:51.119 Tell us a little bit about that. 291 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.119 Yeah, well, you know, I think that those are extremely 292 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.000 important questions. You know, first of all, at the very beginning, 293 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:04.039 this a horrendous crime, the rape and murder of an 294 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.240 eleven year old girl in the city of Waukegan, and 295 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.519 every time you have a crime of that magnitude, there 296 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:17.960 is tremendous pressure on police and prosecutors to solve the crime. 297 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.119 Juan Rivera was not initially a suspect. He was not 298 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:28.480 a suspect until a person with whom you know I 299 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:32.759 said earlier, that he had committed a burglary of an automobile. 300 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.880 He was ultimately put into prison for that crime. And 301 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:43.519 he's in prison for this burglary of an automobile when someone, 302 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.759 when a man who was in prison with him, comes 303 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:55.240 forward and tells the prosecution and the police that Juan 304 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.680 Rivera knew something about the murder of this victim. Her 305 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.240 name Holly Staker. She was you know, as I said earlier, 306 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.160 eleven years old. Well, Juan Rivera didn't really know anything 307 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:13.880 at all about this murder, but he had apparently, you know, 308 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:19.200 talked about the crime in prison. And so because of 309 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:22.559 this tip from somebody who was in prison, the police 310 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:28.880 came to went down to prison and interrogated him, and 311 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.240 of course he denied any knowledge, and they brought him 312 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:35.880 back out of the state prison to talk to him 313 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:39.480 again and again and again, and that's where this incredible 314 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:46.400 interrogation took place. In which he wound up admitting that 315 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.200 he had committed the crime. You know, now, as I 316 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:57.000 said earlier, the idea of a false confashion is pretty 317 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:01.119 hard for most people to understand. But you know, we 318 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:07.200 have seen it with such frequency in the American criminal 319 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:14.480 justice system that we know that confessions are are really unreliable. 320 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:20.920 Particularly you know, a confession like this Juan Rivera had 321 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.880 been observed and this is according to a nurse in 322 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.640 the in the jail at the time this occurred, that 323 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.720 after he confessed, he was beating his head against the 324 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:39.119 wall of the cell in which he had been held. 325 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.960 He you know, didn't know, you know, what he was doing. 326 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:48.799 I mean, this is just, you know, an amazing series 327 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.759 of facts. And then we have, of course, you know, 328 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:58.599 the overwhelming evidence that he didn't do the crime, the 329 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:04.160 DNA that excludes him as the source of seamen recovered 330 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.480 from the child's body, and the fact that he was 331 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:13.319 on electronic home monitoring two miles away when the crime occurred. 332 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.839 And yet based on this confession, a jury was willing 333 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:28.839 to convict him. It's just, you know, totally ludicrous set 334 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:33.839 of facts that led to what we believe, unquestionably is 335 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.799 of a wrongful conviction. 336 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.240 Now you talk about the confession itself, and you talk 337 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.559 about an institution or an establishment called John Reid, and 338 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:47.359 so they take him to a certain center, and there 339 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.200 is a little bit of historical background to that center 340 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.000 itself and the techniques there. But the thing is, I 341 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.359 want to know you do make the accusation about the 342 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.720 police conspiring and that their statements were false and making 343 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.200 fall statements at trial later on the stand. So let's 344 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.920 you talk about false confessions, and we have to take 345 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:08.920 your word for it that false confessions occur, and that 346 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:11.559 they're very common and can occur. But for those that 347 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:16.960 are still skeptical, Y know, what I'm saying. Sure, what 348 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.240 I'm saying is that what I'm saying is that this 349 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.119 particular case provides us with a really good example of 350 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.279 how false confessions. So why don't you tell us how 351 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.599 you believe that false confession came. Now you talked about 352 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.920 him not knowing any of the facts of the case, 353 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.960 but the police claim that he knew certain things that 354 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.279 only the killer would know. Now you talk about there 355 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.799 was a first confession, there was a second fession. Please 356 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.599 explain this whole thing, because there was no what they 357 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:46.799 did have recording equipment at that time or did have 358 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.079 the capability to record the confession, yet they didn't. How 359 00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:53.160 did they answer to those claims as well that if 360 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:56.519 they wanted to add some credibility, they could have recorded it. 361 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:01.160 Well. Now, in fact, since the two thousand and three 362 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:05.000 in Illinois, you know, it's the legislature passed the law 363 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:11.559 requiring that custodial interrogations be recorded start to finish, so 364 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.519 that law was not in effect in nineteen ninety two 365 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:21.960 when this crime occurred, and consequently there was no recording 366 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:31.480 of the confession. And the issues here were really I mean, 367 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:37.559 you know, pretty straightforward. The police claimed that Juan Rivera 368 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.839 revealed facts of the crime that only the killer would know. 369 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:48.519 And yet you know, we had newspaper reports. These are 370 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:54.240 reports published in the newspaper that contained almost all of 371 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:59.079 the facts that were in his confession. Was one exception, 372 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.240 and one exception was that there had been a mop handle, 373 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.680 a purple mop handle, that had been used to break 374 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.759 into the back door of the apartment. Now, the police 375 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:16.519 claimed that they didn't know about that mop handle until 376 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:23.480 Wan Rivera revealed it in his confession, But in fact, uh, 377 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:26.200 you know, Jan had been taken, had been brought to 378 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.680 the City of Chicago. Uh, he had been he had 379 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:35.480 he had been subjected to a polograph examination, and the 380 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:41.000 polygraph examiner had written a report on saying that the 381 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:45.400 police had told him, revealing that the police had told 382 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:50.440 him about this mop handle, this purple mop handle. So 383 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.759 the police, you know, when the officers, when they got 384 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.920 on the stand, and the principal officer who perjured himself 385 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.079 and I don't use that word lightly, his name was 386 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.960 Lou Tessaman, got on the stand and claimed that he 387 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.640 didn't know about that until Juan Rivera revealed it. Well, 388 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:14.880 you know, I can't prove what Lou Testament knew or 389 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.200 didn't know, but I do know that there's no question 390 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:23.960 that the police in Lake County had told the polygraph 391 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:29.039 examinor prior to that time about this mob pandle. So 392 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:35.559 I can only conclude that Lou Testament got on the 393 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:40.359 stand in this case and lied. It was a bold 394 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.039 face lie, and I think it was very persuasive to 395 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.599 the jury. Now, you know, it might not have been 396 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.799 nearly as persuasive if the judge had been a fair 397 00:27:53.880 --> 00:28:00.440 person and had allowed the defense to challenge this point 398 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.720 out that indeed the police knew about this, but the 399 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:11.119 judge didn't. The judge refuse to allow that evidence into 400 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.920 the trial. And that's what I meant when I say 401 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:20.200