WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:14.720 Special Operations Cobertsbiona the Team House with your hopes. Jack 2 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:24.559 Murphy and David bark Hey. Welcome to Teamhouse, episode three 3 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.320 fifty four. I'm Dave. This is Jack. Joined tonight by 4 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:34.439 our guest Rob Harrison, former Air Force intel guy, with 5 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.000 some very interesting stories about his own career and also 6 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:42.759 about the Chapman incident on Robert S. Fridge as a 7 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:46.880 first hand. It has some first hand accounts of that 8 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:51.119 and then the aftermath also. So Rob, thank you very 9 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:53.320 much for joining us tonight. 10 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.799 Thanks guys, I appreciate you all having me. My name 11 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:01.159 is Rob Harrison. I spent about twenty six year's active 12 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:05.560 duty in the Air Force and retired in twenty twenty one. 13 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:08.159 So Rob, the first thing we always like to ask 14 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.760 is our guest origin story. What what led you? How 15 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:16.040 do you grow up? And what led you to the military? 16 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:24.159 The path? Yeah, I would say there's some poetry references 17 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:28.159 in here somewhere, But I didn't take a traditional path 18 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.760 like many young young men out there. I might not 19 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:36.239 have known exactly what I wanted to do. I graduated 20 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.640 high school, I was always a good student, ended up 21 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:42.959 on an academic scholarship to a local junior college where 22 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:44.280 I was going to go ahead and knock out my 23 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:49.599 general education requirements before going off to a bigger university. 24 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:54.439 And had always had the military and mind specifically the 25 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.840 Air Force, based on some family lineage folks that had 26 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:05.200 also served, and I ended up deciding I came up 27 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:07.719 with this awesome plan. I was like, all right, well, 28 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.919 I'm going to party my first semester, and I know 29 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:12.599 that I need to have a three point oh, So 30 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.639 I'll squeak by the first semester and then I'll pull 31 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:17.319 a four point zero on the second one after I 32 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:19.479 get it all out of my system and everything will 33 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.120 be good. But there was this fine print in my 34 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.599 in my scholarship, and I needed to maintain a three 35 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:29.319 point oh for each portion of the academic year. And 36 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:33.439 so I got the regret to inform you, mister Harrison, 37 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.120 but we're going to have to pull your academic scholarship. 38 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.719 So I had to tuck my tail between my legs, 39 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:40.599 go back home to Mom and dad, fess up to 40 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.560 them what had happened. And my dad said, well, what 41 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.919 are you going to do about it? So I decided 42 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.800 not to put that burden on anybody else and said, well, 43 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:51.199 I think I'm going to go talk to the Air 44 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:54.960 Force recruiter. And he said, I think that's a good idea. 45 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.520 And so you went to the recruiter and how did 46 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.800 you choose the job that you ended up with. 47 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:08.360 So that's another there's a story of irony with this one. 48 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:09.120 I went in. 49 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:10.439 I wanted to fly. 50 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:11.879 I knew that if I was going to join the 51 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.520 Air Force, I wanted to be on airplanes. That's what 52 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:16.840 the Air Force does, right, we fly, fight and win. 53 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.360 So I went into the recruiter. The recruiter said, yes, sorry, 54 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.159 I don't have any of those jobs available for you. 55 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:27.120 But uh, but I took all these aptitude tests and 56 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:29.560 I qualify for all this stuff. And he says, well, 57 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.840 you want to be a linguist and uh, and I said, 58 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:36.240 I'm a redneck from Mississippi. I can barely speak English. 59 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:38.919 What do you mean, uh, you know, study foreign language? 60 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.240 He said, well, you you know you qualify for this test. 61 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.759 You've you've done it, you passed it. You could go 62 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:48.120 do that. And I was like, I don't think so, 63 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.680 so I went in open electronics and uh, in week 64 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.080 five back then in Air Force basic training, they gave 65 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.840 you your job assignments, and I grew up, you know, having 66 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:02.719 family connections to the Air Force that had served in 67 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.680 earlier generations. I knew enough about that, and thanks to 68 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.439 the Discovery Channel's Wings you know episodes way back when, 69 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.000 I knew enough about the Air Force to know that 70 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.040 to be a missile maintenance guy in the bottom of 71 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.759 a silo was not a garden spot, right, And so 72 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:23.160 I raised my hand in the middle of week five 73 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.720 of basic training and said, somebody said that I could 74 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:29.480 be a linguist. And I passed for this test and 75 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.160 so forth, and the guy stopped and he said, anybody 76 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.040 else take that test, And somebody caught on to what 77 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.879 was going on and they raised their hand. A side 78 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.920 door opened up, an in service recruiter came and rescued 79 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:46.079 this for a few hours out of basic training. We 80 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.319 went down a side hallway into a private room, sign 81 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:52.600 new contracts, got a coke and a smile, and became, 82 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.800 you know, contracted to become an airborne photological linguist. 83 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:03.680 Fascinating and so so then I assumed, so was DL 84 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:04.759 I the next step for you? 85 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.680 Yeah, after basic you would go through DL I pick 86 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:15.040 up your basic language acquisition. I studied Persian FARSI. I 87 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:18.720 finished that and went into the intelligence and the air 88 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.959 flu training pipelines. So you go through your intel analysis schools. 89 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:25.720 We do that in a place called goodfell At Air 90 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:30.560 Force Base in San Angelo, Texas. Then most of our 91 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.600 survival stuff, most of it happens up in Washington State. 92 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.560 And then by June of ninety seven, I had spent 93 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.040 just shia two years in the initial accession pipeline. I 94 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:45.959 made it to my first duty station at off At 95 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.439 Air Force Base outside of Omaha, Nebraska, in a little 96 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:49.360 town called Bellevue. 97 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:54.439 Fascinating and so what what were you responsible for their 98 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:55.600 when you learn Offit? 99 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.240 At off It, I was a new crypt linguist. We 100 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.639 were assigned to the RC one thirty five's. I got 101 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.319 a chance to qualify on the the what we call 102 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:10.959 the Rivet joint, the Combat Scent and the Cobra Ball. 103 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:16.879 I flew up probably about ten different deployments. Fortunately they 104 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:21.480 were all relatively short air crew deployments by normal deployment standards. 105 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:24.519 And it all has to do with aircrew hours and 106 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:29.360 you know, keeping keeping folks physiologically from being like overflowing, 107 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.040 if you will. So back and forth to the sandbox. 108 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:33.920 You know. 109 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.480 This was Operation Southern Watch, Northern Watch. Most of my 110 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.319 deployments would have been to Prince Salton Air Base. I 111 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.040 did one up to insult Turkey, and that happened to 112 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.199 coincide with events that were unfolding in ninety nine for 113 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:53.519 Allied Force. But on my very first deployment, I went 114 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:57.079 out with the combat Scent and the Cobra ball excuse me, 115 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.920 the combat scent and the Rivet joint and we redeployed 116 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.920 back through Ramstein, Germany. And there I ran into an 117 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.600 AC one thirty spector crew and a guy that the 118 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:13.680 personality sticks out. His name is James Patterson O'Brien and uh, 119 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.800 and if you could imagine, he's from Boston, and uh, 120 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:19.680 he's got family members that were cops and firemen and 121 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:24.319 probably one that was a priest. But Obe, as they 122 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.879 called him, he was an intimidating fellow because he had 123 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.639 this cool specter patch and he was wearing all of 124 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.959 the subdued patches and my aircrew patches all look like 125 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.920 a bright shining rainbow compared to his, and he's he 126 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.240 looks at me and gives me this stern, you know, 127 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.759 evil look. He's like what are you a fucking dizzo? 128 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.839 And I had to look at my supervisor at the time. 129 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.800 I'm like, what is he talking about? Is I don't 130 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.439 speak that. He's like, well, you had asked, you know, 131 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.879 could you ever go down and and do our do 132 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.000 our job in Florida? And he's like, that's what he's 133 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.560 talking about. Oh so I was a wee can fly 134 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.360 on gunships. And so at that point it dawned on 135 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.199 me on my very first deployment that I was not 136 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:12.720 in the airframe that I was most suited for. You know, 137 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.920 the the rivid joint was was cool. I like to say, 138 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:19.160 it can spy on the devil and talk to God. 139 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:25.279 There's enough Wisban gadgetry on this aircraft to handle all 140 00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:29.360 of today's work. And you have a twelve way adjustable 141 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:33.559 captain's chair, you know, like all kinds of comfort on 142 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:38.360 this aircraft. So anyway, I find out on that very 143 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.360 first deployment that I can go work with Air Force 144 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.320 Special Operations and from you know, that planet a seed, 145 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.120 and so I had to figure out like, okay, how 146 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:47.919 do you chart that path, what do you have to do, 147 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.919 what do you how do you qualify to get considered 148 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.279 to go and do that sort of work. So fast forward, 149 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.440 that's what I did, And by two thousand I had 150 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.200 done a number of deployments around the world and and 151 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.639 I went down to do assess assessment for what we 152 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.120 called Commando Look, And that was so that I could 153 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:11.159 become an intel professional, support and Air Force special operations 154 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:15.480 on their various airframes, whether it was AC one thirty gunships, 155 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:20.360 MC one thirty talents, they had fifty three payblows and 156 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.440 then ultimately they ended up Osprey's and so on. I 157 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:25.799 got a chance to do and fly all of those. 158 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.120 It sounds kind of challenging, just even rivet joint. It 159 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:32.080 sounds kind of challenging because like when you talk about 160 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.159 you know, somebody who's doing signals intelligence at like a 161 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:39.679 regional collection facility or something like that. You know, obviously 162 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.919 there is that real time aspect, but they can also 163 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.960 record it, they can go back, they can like assess it, 164 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.320 but they're kind of depending on you guys for real 165 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:53.960 time like side by side interpretation or translations as you're flying. Right. 166 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.960 Yeah, there's a there's a number of aspects like way 167 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.399 that you would look at it from the intelligence process 168 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.639 that goes along with all of it. But like first 169 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.840 and foremost, you know, any Intel professional that is assigned 170 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.639 to one of those crews, your your duty is to 171 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:16.480 the platform itself. And then oh, by the way, you 172 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.639 know whatever, you know, national priority requirements might be levied 173 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.159 upon you for tasking and that sort of thing. Right, 174 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:28.240 so you you you basically trioge based on prioritization, you know, 175 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.960 so preservation of the platform itself comes first and foremost, 176 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.840 and then then going after whatever national requirements might be 177 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:35.320 tasked to you. 178 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.279 Right, what was it a I don't want to say 179 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.399 Rivet joint in parteriar, but it was a n I 180 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.879 s R platform that was rushed and down by the 181 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:51.200 Chinese a few years ago, Right, So. 182 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.639 It wasn't a It wasn't a Rivet joint. I think 183 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.679 the one that you're talking about is the Navy P 184 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:02.360 three and the Hainan Island incident. Udly enough, I was 185 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.879 just having a conversation with somebody about that story today. 186 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:05.919 You know. 187 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:08.200 Fast forward towards the end of my career, I got 188 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.720 a chance to be a superintendent of the Intel squadron 189 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.879 that that handled all of the flyers for the Arsenlum 190 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.279 thirty five specifically for the Pacific, and that Heinen Island 191 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.600 incident was one of our alum He was what we 192 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.679 would have called a Niner, the three ninetyieth Intelligence Squadron. 193 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.519 Kirk Town's his name. He actually happened to be an 194 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.240 airman that was augment in that Navy P three crew 195 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:37.399 when the Heinen Island incident happened. And and I had 196 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.440 several mentors that were part of the repatriation process and 197 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.480 and so forth. But yeah, that that was an interesting story. Uh, 198 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.840 maybe one for another episode. Yeah, there's a there's a 199 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:51.919 lot of opinions out there on yeah, and whether or 200 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:55.080 not landing at Heinen Island is the right call under 201 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:56.080 the circumstances. 202 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.399 Right, and then and then I booked I guess that 203 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.039 not to go to but I said, there wasn't a 204 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.320 they didn't do a sufficient burn of of everything on 205 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:06.360 the aircraft either. 206 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.279 Yeah, there's a there's a ton of story that I 207 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.480 would that I'd love to share with you one day 208 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.080 over over a beverage when we're when we're not on 209 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:16.519 this call. 210 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:17.759 Sounds good, sounds good. 211 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.879 That's a that's a deep story. 212 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.519 But but just to just kind of point out that 213 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.919 you know, you talk about intelligence on an ac vers 214 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 like A one thirty five and those those ones that 215 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:37.960 you know the most is SR platforms are fairly defenseless, 216 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.200 like they're out there kind of hanging it out right. 217 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:46.399 Yeah. I mean you you operate within you know, international standards, 218 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.759 you know what is known. You know, every everybody's going 219 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:53.720 to do some form of reconnaissance on one another intelligence gathering. 220 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.120 What how do you but yeah, you go out there. 221 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:02.840 You typically, you know, at alta tude, you're you're in 222 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:06.440 international airspace or within an area that you're approved to fly, 223 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.720 and then you know you're executing your mission. Uh, you know, 224 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:14.000 depending on the ao R. I've done everything from off 225 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:18.480 the off the coast of the Chatka Peninsula to you know, 226 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:21.879 in the in the Pacific theater, whether it be you know, 227 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:26.120 North Korea, China, across the Middle East. Most of my 228 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.480 deployments and the rest of my formative years were on 229 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.960 the APSOX side, So majority of my time was spent 230 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.240 deploy into Iraq, Afghanistan, Horn of Africa, that sort of thing. 231 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.399 Yeah. So, so you make it through this selection, uh, 232 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.840 and I assume that there's you know, additional training for 233 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:43.759 you then at that point. 234 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.519 Yeah, the the worst part of selection is the is 235 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:53.000 the psycho aw I hated that part. It was too 236 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:55.799 damn long and they asked the same question over and over. Uh, 237 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:02.480 so I I despised. It turns out the guy that 238 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:03.759 was doing. 239 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:09.720 My position with ob on that that specter crew ended 240 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.799 up being on my board when I was going through 241 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.919 the selection process, and so Jack is his name. 242 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:20.039 Jack ends up telling me, Yeah, the psych doc came 243 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.159 in and debriefed how irritated you got with the number 244 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.039 of questions and that you thought that it was bullshit 245 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.919 because there wasn't any like actual correct answer in the 246 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:32.600 five choices that they gave you. I was like, yeah, 247 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.879 that's about right. So he gives the readout on the 248 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:40.399 situation and everybody's like, well okay, and they did their 249 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:44.320 vote around the room. Everybody slaps the table on approval 250 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.080 for Rob. He's like and then I just started laughing, 251 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.519 you know, and I was like, well, what was so funny? 252 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:51.559 I was like, because the psych doc said the same 253 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.360 thing when I assessed. So I just laughed at all 254 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:54.919 of them, said you just let another one of me, 255 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:55.840 and they give the chief. 256 00:14:55.720 --> 00:15:02.080 Dumbasses, so you and at the twenty fifth Intelligence Squadron 257 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:05.279 at Herlbert. And what's it like for you when you 258 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:06.120 first show up there? 259 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.960 Back then? Really small squadron. We were maybe maybe eighty strong, 260 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:19.120 small unit. It hadn't it hadn't exploded yet. Uh. And 261 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.759 and when I say exploded, a lot of stuff, you know, 262 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.600 coincided with with my eleven War on Terror, the deployments 263 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.840 that the resulted from all of that. But we were 264 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.639 eighty people strong. I was a young guy coming from 265 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.639 the rc WENT thirty five arena, trying to figure out, Okay, 266 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:40.159 how do I do an intelligence job to support you know, 267 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.879 Air Force special operations platforms and so on. I had 268 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:49.519 several guys, one of my mentors, a buddy named Ted Gambogi, 269 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.559 another guy named Shane Kimmitt. You know, we lost Shane 270 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.480 in O two and an aircraft accident in Roosevelt Roads. 271 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.360 But those guys kind of helped steer me, you know, 272 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.879 down the successful path of how to navigate from the 273 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.840 traditional strategic IR platform down to the soft side and 274 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:11.879 you know, how to operate in the weeds and uh 275 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:14.399 and do you know how do you fit in within 276 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.440 that crew? And and it really you know, boiled down 277 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:21.960 to airmanship and and learning learning your airframe, learning your craft, 278 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.519 and being able to mix and mingle with whether it 279 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:29.679 be a special operations airlift mission or strike or cast 280 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.399 platform or rescue, you know, with the rotary lift, you 281 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.879 name it. So they helped me navigate it. Jack was 282 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:40.440 one of my primary instructors and uh and I leaned 283 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:44.919 on him heavily because in the late nineties, Jack and 284 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.000 another guy named John Scott had been in some key 285 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:54.639 missions over in Bosnia and Serbia, and Jack specifically he 286 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.320 was he was the dizzo on the Paveloat mission that 287 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.279 flew in to rest to you at the time, that 288 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.640 was Lieutenant Colonel Goldfiend. He was a squadron commander. I 289 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.480 think of the triple Nickel, the five fifty fifth out 290 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.839 of Aviano, if I have all that historically out theurate 291 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.200 and when Goldfiend grew went on to become the chiefest 292 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:20.000 staff of the Air Force. That night he described it 293 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:24.759 as he said, it was his least proud moment when 294 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:29.680 he successfully intercepted an SA three missile, meaning he got 295 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:35.559 shot down. So anyway, Jack and the crew get the payblows, 296 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:40.039 get tasked to go and recover those guys recover him. 297 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.640 And if you can imagine like where his AT six 298 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.119 team gets shot down, like it's in a heavily defended 299 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.240 air defense serfs to air missile type environment. So Jack 300 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.039 as an intel capability on the pablows. It helps them 301 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.920 navigate through low level terrain masking, threat avoidance, threat warning, 302 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.960 that sort of thing. These guys literally fly the gauntlet 303 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.480 in order to go and pick up Goldfen and Goldfien 304 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:11.519 you know, lives and becomes to the capabilities of Air 305 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.839 Force Special Operations and specifically the ones we call the 306 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.160 steel Horse the payblows. 307 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:24.079 That's wild. That's wild. So while you're at the twenty 308 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.279 fifth on your first tour, that's when nine to eleven happens. 309 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:35.079 Yeah, nine to eleven happened obviously September eleventh that year. 310 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.640 I had just by by about July time period, I 311 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.039 had gotten qualified on the U model gunship known as 312 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.759 the Spooky AC went thirty U. And when once nine 313 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:52.400 eleven happened, immediately everybody is in deployment mode like you're 314 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:54.920 just waiting, you know, you know that the orders are 315 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.039 going to come. It's just a matter of like the 316 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.480 tasking flowing and that sort of thing. So our unit 317 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.359 immediately starts spinning people up on additional airframes so that 318 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.359 you can maximize you know, support and you know, expand 319 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.359 capability and so on. They build out the deployment team. 320 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.079 And there's a handful of people that know this story. 321 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:20.200 But Rick, Cops, if you're listening, I apologize for what 322 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.640 I'm about to say. Sorry, not sorry. They were building 323 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.599 out the initial deployment team and I wasn't on the list, 324 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:33.200 and I was recently, you know, like I was the 325 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.720 guy who had just assessed into the unit, but I 326 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.440 was the one who had most recent you know experience 327 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:45.160 in our intel mission in that AOO and so our 328 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.640 guys were looking at the seasoned folks and Rick Cox's 329 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.160 name was on the list as one of our folks 330 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.960 and he was out in the Pacific Theater. And as 331 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.400 they're going around the room with the initial deployment plan, 332 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.359 fella name, he become Colonel sip the Captain Sippowitz, big tall, 333 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.960 athletic dude, grizzled jaw. You know, he just sitting there 334 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.279 stone stone cold, you know, killer planning, you know, the 335 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.799 the deployment operation for for our mission set. And he 336 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.200 does the around the room and I'm like, yep, new 337 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.440 guy here. I got a question and I made my pitch. 338 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.079 I was like, I'm the most recent I'm newly qualified 339 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.480 on this, but I've got recent experience in this ar. 340 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.799 I've been busting my ass and my name's not on 341 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:34.440 that list that I want. I want that changed. And 342 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.000 he stops and he listens, goes around the rooms. A 343 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.720 whole bunch of people said thumbs up. He's like, all right, 344 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.359 Cox is out, Harrison, you're in and Uh, and that 345 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.720 story has come back, especially after I had made a chief. 346 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:50.480 He's like, I remember the day when you and Uh, 347 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:52.720 and it was, you know, just a moment where open 348 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.720 mouths get fed you you you speak up. And in 349 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:01.599 this case, I had had reason too. And man if 350 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.559 I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have made the initial deployment, 351 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.519 and things hadn't wouldn't have unfolded the way they did 352 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:09.720 in my crew. And well, anyway, sorry, not something. 353 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.279 So let's talk about that initial deployment because Gecko, Rhino 354 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.160 and Akanda Roberts like, you were there for it. 355 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:26.960 Yeah, so I had. I was extremely fortunate. So I 356 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.839 was brand new and to say brand new amongst you 357 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.480 know an operator crowd. I didn't even know what a 358 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.359 rock drum was, so I was new, you know. When 359 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.920 it came to that level of operations. I had some 360 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.839 senior folks, a fella named Ken Welborne that took me 361 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.839 under his wing. He showed me the ropes. 362 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.880 Hey, guys, it's your pal Jack. 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Can 392 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:33.759 you tell us about that deployment how it starts out 393 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.119 for you? 394 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:40.000 Yeah? So I had just mentioned a fellow by the 395 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.839 name of Ken Wellbornon who was our He was our 396 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.839 senior guy and had taken me under his wing, showed 397 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.920 me the ropes and kept me from walking into propellers 398 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.519 and all kinds of stuff. Ken was a typical you know, 399 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.160 just he was the epitome of a of an awesome 400 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.640 senior nco. He he had done a ton of cool 401 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.400 stuff in his career, and so at this point like 402 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:06.079 this might have been towards the end of his actual 403 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.000 active duty career, so he put me, you know, out 404 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.799 in front as much as he possibly could. I had 405 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.400 the fortune of being on the very first AC one 406 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:21.839 thirty that crossed into Afghanistan airspace after nine to eleven, 407 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.839 and then that led to that initial mission at Gecko 408 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.880 and Rhino, which was the airfield seizure that the Rangers 409 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:34.160 had taken over what became Rhino at Camp Rhino, I 410 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.680 think is what the Marines called it. They once they 411 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.319 took over from the Rangers and to all the Marines, 412 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:47.440 the Rangers were there first. Then Gecko was Mulla Omar's palace, 413 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.000 and that night that was a huge joint Special operations mission, 414 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.279 tons of rotary wing aircraft, fixed wing. I remember charging 415 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:02.440 at the border and we had we had three gunships 416 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.200 and three talents his sixty one thirties line of breast 417 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.440 trying to hit tankers as we're pressing in, and the 418 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.279 tanker crews were hilarious because they're like, no, this tale 419 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.839 nuver is supposed to be behind this tanker and we're like, dude, 420 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.519 we don't give a shit, just give us gas. And 421 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:20.720 so they gave us gas and we pressed on because 422 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.079 they were about to screw up time zone target. So 423 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.960 anyway we push in the airborn mission commander is Pete Blaber. 424 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.240 He's on board the aircraft that I'm on, and yeah 425 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:34.000 it was wild. 426 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.599 Yeah. So you know it's interesting because you know, having 427 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.160 been involved in all this stuff, you know, the AC 428 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:46.759 one thirty is a platform that's sort of been under fire, 429 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.039 you know, like we we don't need anymore since Vietnam, 430 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.079 and it's and from what I hear, it's under fire again. 431 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:58.119 I mean, but with as they continue to update it, 432 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:01.680 do you see anything else that can read place its capabilities? 433 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.680 Man, I think we'd have to sit here and go 434 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.839 to the whiteboard with some sci fi capabilities. You know, 435 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:13.960 when you talk about you know, persistent casts and so on, 436 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.640 the debate nowadays is you know, penetrating platforms and you know, 437 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:24.920 having having an environment that allows for a persistent cast platform. 438 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.079 Whether the debate is over the A ten that is 439 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.480 you know, phased out and said to be replaced by 440 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.799 the F thirty five. Like you know, nothing will ever 441 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680 you know, purposely specifically be able to replace what the 442 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:39.960 A ten Warthog could do, just like nothing would ever 443 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.440 be able to specifically replace what an ac Win thirty 444 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:47.839 can do. I could there be something, Yeah, but I'm 445 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.400 I'm your typical you know. Uh, I'm a I'm a 446 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.319 soft guy at heart, you know. So what do we do? 447 00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.519 We think outside the box? I could come up with 448 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.160 a number of Barnapkin ideas on how we could do that, 449 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:07.519 but I don't know. I think there are certain platforms 450 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.400 that always be near and dear and sentimental. So I 451 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.240 would I'd vote to keep it around as long as 452 00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.240 you can, because I mean, look at look at what's 453 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:20.319 going on in Iran and Israel right now. If if 454 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.079 Israel is able to you know, establish you know, air superiority, 455 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:27.400 well now you have the ability to penetrate with those 456 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.720 platforms that weren't initially designed to penetrate. 457 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:30.119 Right. 458 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.640 So I'd say there's still a need, still a capability 459 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.079 that would exist and still in the future, you know, 460 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.440 it push came to shove, you would you would allow, 461 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:44.519 you'd create the environment that would allow their their operations 462 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:45.519 to continue. 463 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:52.039 Yeah. So so let's go on to Robert s. Fize 464 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:54.039 if you don't mind, can can you tell us sort 465 00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:56.960 of the the mission brief for you guys, what your 466 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.640 responsibility was and how it all played out. 467 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:06.880 Yeah, So that initial deployment was you know October. Robert's 468 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.960 Ridge is associated with Operation anacondas so we got to 469 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:16.000 fast forward to February March time period of two thousand 470 00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:21.599 and two. So just chronologically, you've gone through you know, 471 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.519 Pobbo has fallen, Kandahar has fallen, the North has fallen, 472 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:32.880 the al Qaeda fighters and Taliban had moved to Tora Bora, 473 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.039 and we've gone through the winter time where they've kind 474 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:40.079 of retreated into their high ground if you will, basically 475 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.720 pages out of the playbook that they had used against 476 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.480 the Russians in the eighties. Ironically, that was required reading 477 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.880 for us as we were going in. I remember books, 478 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.880 you know, showing up by the case for the bear 479 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.920 went over the mountain and the other side of the mountain. 480 00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.880 So it was eighties, uh, you know, war story perspectives, 481 00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.759 one from you know, Russian commanders and others from commanders 482 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.039 of the muja haden, So we obviously cared what the 483 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:11.119 other side of the mountain looked like, and what was 484 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.319 unfolding in Operation at Anaconda was exactly what we anticipated 485 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:17.559 based on how they had behaved against the Russians in 486 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.799 the eighties. So the mission brief is that this is 487 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:26.160 the spring offensive. It's brief as hammer and Anvil. You're 488 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:31.720 gonna have special operations, uh overwatch, calling in fire support. 489 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.799 You're gonna have uh soft working with indigenous pushing up 490 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.240 against the anvil that is a conventional force. And it's 491 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:43.559 all gonna happen right there in the Shaykope Valley for 492 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:47.279 anybody that follows the you know, Afghan you know, uh 493 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.279 critical battles and stuff. The the nearest town that would 494 00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:55.920 be significant is that of Marzak. You know, the there's uh, 495 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.400 there's areas like the the safe houses up in Gardez, 496 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.200 you know, the some of the forces had come out 497 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:08.799 of barroom down to this area. But anyway, Operation Anaconda 498 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:11.799 is going to be the kickoff of all of that. Ironically, 499 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.440 the very first night of Anaconda gets delayed with weather 500 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.240 and so forth, and then once we start to move 501 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.920 you know, American forces into position, it becomes immediately obvious 502 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.000 that the enemy is already there and they already have 503 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:31.000 a foothold in the high ground. We essentially don't have 504 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.880 enough dedicated close air support on station. During the very 505 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:40.079 first night of operation Anaconda, which causes a shuffle of 506 00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.759 the scheduling plan for the next night, and then we 507 00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:47.799 just basically saturated. So we've got three gunships coming out 508 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.480 of the north, out of Uzbekistan, We've got three gunships 509 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.039 coming out of Mesira. Six birds on station staggered over 510 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.160 the period of darkness to make sure that there's plenty 511 00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.880 of cast to go around, and not to mention, you know, 512 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.359 the platforms that were well beyond you know, just the 513 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.519 AC one thirties, you had other fixed wing capabilities in 514 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:13.599 the area as well. For our specific mission, when Robert's 515 00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:18.039 Ridge is unfolding, we are the emergency on call cast platform. 516 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.480 We don't have a dedicated customer that night. Our goal 517 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:27.039 is to basically take off, fly right through Afghanistan airspace, 518 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.599 immediately hit a tanker in Pakistan, top off our tanks, 519 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.079 and then just stand by for any emergency that may 520 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.359 pop up. While that happens. One of our sister ships 521 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.519 a nail a nail flight, I think it was Nail 522 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.480 to zero. They were originally tasked for the Maco infill 523 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.599 via the Razor elements, so Razor was the image forty seven. 524 00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.880 Some of your listeners the audience may be familiar with 525 00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.079 Alan Mack. He's the chief worn officer that was pilot 526 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.200 and Razors zero three. He's the guy who's taking in 527 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.960 the seal team that is Maco three zero and their 528 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:10.039 combat controller is MAKEO three zero Charlie John Chapman. We 529 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.920 are on tanker while NAIL is supposed to be covering 530 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.599 that infill. Well, there's a series of delays, some of 531 00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:25.119 its maintenance related, and then meanwhile Coust Airfield comes under attack. 532 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:28.680 So since the infield that that NAIL is supposed to 533 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.559 cover is delayed, Airborne Command and Control decides to re 534 00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.480 roll the NAIL element to cover the troops in contact 535 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:40.960 situation that erupts at Coust. And when this is going on, 536 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.440 we're literally flying right by that airspace and we even 537 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.200 come up on the radio going, hey, they've got a 538 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.559 dedicated mission. You're sure you don't want us to cover 539 00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:52.720 that troops in contact since we're the emergency on call platform. 540 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.279 They're like, nope, nope, Nail's got it. The other guys 541 00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.480 are delayed, You guys proceed a tanker and don't mess 542 00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.839 up the tanker flow. So we set to the ar 543 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.640 track for air refueling. We we we're topping off our 544 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:08.640 tanks when all of a sudden you hear may day, 545 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.440 may a made a any grim any nail. This is 546 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:15.519 Maco three zero, Charlie. And when you hear that, you know, 547 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.920 everybody's you know, quiet as you know. You can hear 548 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:20.799 a pin drop on the aircraft, believe it or not. 549 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.759 We're we're in the middle, like the one point thirty 550 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.079 gets heavy behind a tanker and we have to execute 551 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.279 what they call it toboggan. So you're descending with the 552 00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:34.839 tanker in order to maintain air speed and stay connected, 553 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:38.799 all while this Mayday call is going on. So pilot's 554 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.519 talking to the engineer. I'm getting a location of a 555 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.079 down to aircraft over some special equipment that I have 556 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:49.319 on board. They they execute an emergency breakaway from the tanker, 557 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.279 and I passed the coordinates of the of the down 558 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.000 to aircraft and the source of where you know, John 559 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.440 Chapman's on the radio, and we just make a b 560 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:01.839 line to their to their location sensors to those specific coordinates, 561 00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.960 and we just fly straight there and establish an orbit 562 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.000 over what is now downed Razor zero three in the 563 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.679 valley just north of their original infilid position that was 564 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.920 at toccer Gar at the mountain top. 565 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.159 So so you guys are looking at the downed aircraft. 566 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:28.400 Meanwhile things are going on on the ridge line. Are 567 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.199 you paying attention to both or do you have a 568 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:31.079 priority there? 569 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:36.440 So when we when we fly in, we're we're trained 570 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:41.639 to trained. The sensors are are specifically looking at at 571 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.480 the coordinates and what turns out to be like the 572 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.920 actual helicopter and you can see friendlies around the crash 573 00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:52.320 site as we're flying in and establishing that orbit. Chappie's 574 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.280 on the on the radio as three zero Charlie telling 575 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.199 us that they lost a teammate on top of the 576 00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.880 mountain and says, hey, we've got a friendly up there. 577 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.079 Can you shift eyes and shift your orbit to that location? 578 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.639 And so we hadn't even established a full orbit, but 579 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.159 we just slide immediately slew the sensor to the mountaintop. 580 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.119 That's where we see an active IR strobe and an 581 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.559 individual laid out on the mountaintop. We've got a sister ship, 582 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.840 another grim element that picks up an orbit around the 583 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:27.440 helicopter and then we just slid our orbit over to 584 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.480 the mountain. So there's there's two specter gunships in neighboring 585 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:38.480 orbits covering the helicopter's crash site and the original infill location. 586 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.480 So we're eyes on the infill location and we are 587 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:42.280 Grim three to two. 588 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.159 Okay, and is it this point, at this point that well, 589 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.000 are you sure? Are you guys there when Chappie, when 590 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:52.440 Slab's team comes in. 591 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.159 So when they initially tried to infill, note, we were not, 592 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.320 so we didn't see any of that. What I've what 593 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:03.840 I have seen of that mission is from old historic 594 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:07.800 footage and I can't find that stuff anymore, like I 595 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.239 know it still exists. But there's some interesting story in 596 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:15.480 all of that because that's where Fifi Petty Officer Neil 597 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.639 Roberts was the guy who fell out of the back 598 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:22.559 of the helicopter. There's a variety of accounts of what 599 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.440 happened in that immediate aftermath. I was not specifically there, 600 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:30.400 but I've spoken to one of my mentors was the 601 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:34.599 intel guy that was that was supporting those airframes out 602 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:40.000 of Uzbekistan, and he literally debriefed those crews. And so 603 00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.400 the story is that that Fifi fell out of that helicopter, 604 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.280 he got jostled loose as they had positioned getting ready 605 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.360 for the info. So the team is up and they're 606 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:56.079 they're positioning towards the ramp and then once they're coming in, 607 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.599 the enemy activity is seen by the crew of the 608 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:05.199 helicopter and they start taking enemy fire. They wave off 609 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.440 of the infill and that's when Roberts gets knocked loose, 610 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:14.280 and the the forty seven gunner that was there, it 611 00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.719 would have been a crew chief in the back. He's 612 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:18.960 the tail gunner, if you will, That's what we would 613 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.119 have called him in the Air Force. But he said 614 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.840 that that when Fifi fell, it was happening in slow 615 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.239 motion and all I could see was him smiling back 616 00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:31.360 up at him. And so there's there's different accounts on 617 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:35.800 how exactly that fall happens. And I'll save part of 618 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.960 that story for Frank Daily since he was the one 619 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:44.880 who debriefed those guys. But anyway, the gunner, the crew 620 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.679 chief had fallen, Fifi's involved in helping recover that guy, 621 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.639 and then Fifi falls after all of that, and the 622 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:56.000 story is that that Fifi survived that fall, and Fifi's 623 00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.920 seen engage in the enemy, but that footage was out 624 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.280 there and then that footage got scrapped like it got. 625 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.280 I don't know, I don't know what the circumstances are, 626 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:11.239 but I remember I remember seeing Fifi fight against the 627 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:15.159 enemy out there. And this is all before, like before 628 00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.280 our gunship. When I say I saw it, it was 629 00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:22.320 after the fact. I had seen video of this, but 630 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:26.840 I haven't seen it since. And so our perspective when 631 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.079 all this unfolds, that helicopter is now limped off north 632 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:33.719 of the valley. Interesting stories from Alan mack on on 633 00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:39.079 how that happens. Amazing airmanship involved all the way around 634 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:43.440 on that crew. Well, by the time we see what's 635 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.880 going on, we've put eyes on based on Chappe's direction, 636 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.920 Petty Officer Roberts is laid out with an active IR 637 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.280 strobe and we see him just laid out stationary on 638 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.079 top of the mountain. Upon further inspection, our sensors can 639 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.639 see what turns out to be footpads, and it looks 640 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.760 it looks like if you were to do an exploit, 641 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:10.400 like a spliced view of an ant hill, it's like 642 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:13.000 you could see the little foot footpads. And the difference 643 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:18.239 is because the heat of the of the melted snow 644 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.760 where they've been walking back and forth versus the cold 645 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.920 of the snow top, you know, mountain, and so you've 646 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.119 got the hot spot of Robert's body, you've got dark, dark, 647 00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:32.400 what I call rat lines for the foot pads, and 648 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:34.360 then all of a sudden, the enemy just come out 649 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.880 of the woodwork and they just surround him. So at 650 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.519 that point the strob is extinguished. We don't know the 651 00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.599 fate of Roberts. We have to assume that we have 652 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.360 that we're dealing with the potential survivor. Next thing, you know, 653 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.880 Roberts is positioned up against the area that they called 654 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:56.039 the boulder, and so that's the big rock outcrop. So 655 00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:00.760 if you're if you're looking up slope where where the 656 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:03.760 teams would have infilled to the top of that mountain 657 00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.440 and been fighting uphill towards bunk what was known as 658 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.960 Bunker one and Bunker two, the rock out crop, the boulder, 659 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:15.000 is that that big rock structure that's up there kind 660 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.920 of center mass. 661 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.079 Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by ghost Bed. Check 662 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:24.119 them out. Please to make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome betting. 663 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:28.840 Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award winning mattresses 664 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.920 crafted in the US and Canada. 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I love 707 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:45.559 ghostped Thanks guys. 708 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:50.400 Well, Roberts gets propped up right there, and we assume 709 00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.199 that the enemies wounded him and propped him up and 710 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.360 left in his bait, knowing that the Americans are going 711 00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:57.840 to come back for him and basically lay in an 712 00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.400 ambush for anybody that. 713 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:03.679 Comes back, right And is she on the from from 714 00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:08.119 where we see Chappie's in phil Is he on the 715 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:10.320 near side or the far side or the top side 716 00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:11.320 of the bottom side of the boulder? 717 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:13.480 Do you remember Roberts is on the near side? So 718 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.920 where the where the where? You look at videos that 719 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:21.119 show the MAKEO three zero element and Chapman all, you know, 720 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.519 infilling and then going up the mountain that you can 721 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:28.119 actually see the hot spot that is petty Officer Roberts, 722 00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:32.840 And he's kind of if you're looking at the boulder 723 00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:39.280 and Bunker one, he's closer to Bunker one than he 724 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.920 is the far side of the boulder, Okay, but he's 725 00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.280 propped up against the boulder. 726 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.599 Yeah, I don't know if that was included in the 727 00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:52.760 the video and the analysis that what was his uh, 728 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:55.960 the gentleman who wrote the book, I can't remember, but 729 00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:56.360 on the. 730 00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.920 Kid, Yeah, it's Dan Shilling, right, Dan Shilling that right 731 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.280 over my shoulder here, Lorie Chapman, Long Fritz and Dan 732 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.159 Chilling road alone at dawn. There's a great video out 733 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.719 there that Dan nir rates and that's based on the 734 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.679 culmination of all of the Air Force's research that went 735 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.239 into the John Chapman Medal of Honor package. So you 736 00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.559 can you can look, you can see what's in that book, 737 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.800 and you can look at that video and hear what 738 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.599 Dan narrates, and you can take that as gospel. 739 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:33.440 Yeah. Okay. So so then how long before the make 740 00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:36.599 A three team goes in for the recovery? 741 00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:41.519 Yeah, Without having the times right in front of me, 742 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:46.079 I can't give you an exact one. Roughly, I would 743 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.719 say it's probably about an hour before they get the 744 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:53.719 they re insert to try and recover Roberts. And the 745 00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.519 difference is that so razors threes down in the valley 746 00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.440 zero four infilled a separate MAKEU element, but they're the 747 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.320 second of the MH forty sevens. Because normally, you know, 748 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.639 any rotary lift is usually going to fly into two 749 00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.920 ships so that they have self recovery capability. But they 750 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.519 had two distinct teams and two separate infill locations that 751 00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:19.119 they were working. But zero four is not going to 752 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.039 come home until they've you know, gotten words on zero three. 753 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.760 So he's orbiting in what we would describe as a 754 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:28.360 black hole, you know, away from populated areas, but he's 755 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.119 terrain massed from a line of sight on the on 756 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.199 the radios with his teammate ers zero three, who's now crashed. 757 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.960 So zero four's talking to us, We're talking to zero 758 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.440 three and we're giving them an update and Chappie as 759 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:49.239 three zero Charlie is is coordinating you know, the pickup. 760 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:53.320 And there's an interesting storyline there because you can look 761 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:56.400 at some of the videos and Slab says that he 762 00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.280 ended up having a mission change and now his mission 763 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.280 became to rest that air crew and as a teammates, 764 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:08.599 as a soft team on a helicopter that crashes. Unless 765 00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.639 you literally gather those guys and you expill on the 766 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:15.480 ground away from that, you're not rescuing anybody. You're being 767 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.159 rescued unless you're the combat controller who is trained to 768 00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:23.679 coordinate rescue assets coming in and doing that sort of thing. 769 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:26.639 So Chappie is three zero, Charlie is the one who 770 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:31.800 actually coordinates via Grim three two two Razor zero four 771 00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:34.159 to come in and pick them up, and then they 772 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.039 reconstitute at the safehouse, figure out their plan of attack, 773 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:40.199 and then they come back to the top of the 774 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.960 mountain to recover Roberts. So there's videos out there. It's 775 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.840 part of the growing false narrative that the Navy pushed 776 00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:51.599 with Gritzlovinski and one of those elements of what I 777 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.800 would consider stolen Valor. You know, John's the one who 778 00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.239 affected the rescue of that crew, but the people that 779 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:03.360 did the rescuing were Raizor zero four. So anyway, so 780 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:06.239 at splitting heres, but I think it detracts from the 781 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.400 credibility of Slab and the rest of the drama that 782 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:10.320 goes on with all of this. 783 00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.960 Yeah, so are you guys on station then when that 784 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:15.559 insertion happens. 785 00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:21.760 Yes, so we are. We're on station. And what sucks 786 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:27.239 during all of this As anybody under these circumstances, you 787 00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:31.199 would want a close air support platform to potentially soften 788 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.119 targets to do some pre assault fires. But we are 789 00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:39.599 a gunship thinking of a survivor on the ground and 790 00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:43.119 everything is danger close proximity. And oh, by the way, 791 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.159 we were a crew that was involved in a fracture 792 00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:50.039 side the very night before, and so you can, you know, 793 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.400 armchair quarterback it. I would tell you that the fracture 794 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:56.639 side event that happened the night before, while it was 795 00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.840 in the mind of the crew, this crew was seasoned, 796 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:03.360 professional enough to put that piece aside and deal with 797 00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.480 the situation at hand. And the fratricite event from the 798 00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:10.440 night before did not, you know, actually impact. Like the 799 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.360 reason why we didn't shoot. We didn't shoot free assault 800 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.760 fires because we didn't know for sure the status of 801 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.599 Roberts and he was literally danger close and by a definition, 802 00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.119 there was nobody there that could give us the authority 803 00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:26.440 to fire our munitions right there danger close proximity when 804 00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.519 when he wasn't in comms given us the authorization because 805 00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.719 he was the one in harm's way. 806 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.519 Baby. For instance, you said that you guys could identify 807 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.800 through thermal the rat lines and stuff, so you could 808 00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.440 see the termination points, so you could essentially in a 809 00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:43.039 way identify the bunkers. 810 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:47.639 Correct, Yeah, we knew at times you could see the 811 00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.760 personnel and then other times they would mask themselves, right, 812 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.719 camouflage concealment, but you knew where positions were. You could 813 00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:58.920 see where some trenches, you could see where some paths were. 814 00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:03.199 You could see areas that would definitely be of interest 815 00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:08.119 for us to put down fires. But every one of 816 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:11.000 those would have been in the danger close proximity of 817 00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:14.199 where Roberts was because of the how how close that 818 00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:15.280 area is well. 819 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:17.639 And I don't want to Mandy Morning quarterback this because 820 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.039 obviously I wasn't there, and I'm like in the good 821 00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.559 idea of fairy always happens afterwards. But you guys have 822 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.599 like smoke capability on on on your bird. 823 00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.639 So there would have been back in the day we 824 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:31.840 would have flown with what they called Willie Pete rounds, 825 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:35.440 probably familiar with the white phosphorus. Yeah, we didn't have 826 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.880 them on board during during these but but yeah, that 827 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.199 the capabilities, yes, uh. And then one of the other things, 828 00:49:43.239 --> 00:49:45.840 you know, discussion that had happened between whether it was 829 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:49.360 command and control us on board that that sort of thing. 830 00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:53.000 There were ideas of laying down fire on the far 831 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:56.000 side of the ridge and walking them up towards the 832 00:49:56.039 --> 00:50:01.360 fighter positions and then keeping our fire on the other 833 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.920 side of the boulder that them would have shielded Petty 834 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.519 Officer Roberts. So there were a number of tactical you know, 835 00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:13.039 considerations that were that were given that ultimately, like they 836 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:17.320 wanted pre assault fires, we didn't give them as a 837 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:19.679 result of, you know, not knowing the fate of robertson 838 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:24.639 again danger close sure, and then we were identifying the 839 00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:28.239 spot that we wanted them to infill to and the 840 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.039 idea was that they would come in, get on the ground, 841 00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:34.360 established two way coms with us, and then they would 842 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.679 talk us onto targets and then we would establish their 843 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:42.360 position on the mountain. Well, I think the tactical debate 844 00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:45.239 and and this is you know, to put words in 845 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:48.440 the in the mouth of the team leader, you know, 846 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:51.920 And and maybe it's not even that I've seen interviews 847 00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.000 and heard his his take on it, but they didn't 848 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.079 want to fight uphill. Uh. There was a sense of urgency. 849 00:50:58.119 --> 00:50:59.960 They had a teammate that was down. They wanted to 850 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:03.239 get right back to the X, and so the normal 851 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.480 consideration of either doing an offset or landing where we 852 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:10.079 had marked for them didn't make tactical sense to them, 853 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:12.679 and so they chose to blow right through our spot 854 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.760 and then infield literally right back on the X. Caught 855 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.000 us by surprise because we were literally lazing where we 856 00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.159 wanted them to go right and then they blew right 857 00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.840 through it. And I remember, you know, us talking about 858 00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:27.960 it because you know, somebody's like, hey, keep eyes on 859 00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:30.159 on this, keep marking the LZ, and we're like, they're 860 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:33.039 already back on the on the X. They already hit 861 00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:35.760 the ground, and some of the crew that didn't have 862 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:38.199 eyes on the sensors that was them catching up on 863 00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.880 the reality of what was going on. So it happened 864 00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:42.440 pretty quick. 865 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:47.039 Yeah. So so they land on the X. You guys 866 00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:52.079 see uh, you guys see somebody fall and yet you 867 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.480 think that it's due to enemy fire. Later we found 868 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.320 out he just like it was snow, like you fell. 869 00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.920 Yeah. So after after actions, you know, the order in 870 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.159 which they the team make O three zero all exits. 871 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:11.280 The aircraft slab was first. He doubles over, according to 872 00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:16.000 his account, in the snow, not not realizing how deep 873 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:19.280 that snow was. From an aircrew perspective, we literally thought 874 00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:22.440 they had been hit by enemy fire and that he 875 00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:26.400 was down down. That's what put Chapman on point, because 876 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:30.320 Chapman leap frogged over Slab at this point and he's 877 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:33.079 he's recovering from snow in the face and goggles and 878 00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:36.480 everything else. And so Chapman's on point going up the 879 00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:40.000 slope as the rest of the team gets gets together 880 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:43.840 to include Slab and they form a little circle some 881 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.480 folks WO call it a wagon wheel, and Chappy's slightly 882 00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.599 upslope from them, so he's he's between their formation and 883 00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:54.800 Bunker one, closest to the most formidable threat, which is 884 00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.400 Bunker one at this moment, right, and then they start 885 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.159 taking fire from three different directions and all hell breaks. 886 00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:04.079 Right, So Chappy, it looks to me like watching the video, 887 00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:09.079 CHAPPI moves to contact, and he is He's probably expecting 888 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.519 the people on his six to move to contact with him, 889 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.679 and they decided. You know, I'm not saying they're wrong. 890 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.239 I don't know their tactics, but they're not moving to contact. 891 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.159 They are deciding what they're going to do next. 892 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:33.159 Yes, So I'm gonna piece this together. Just culmination of stuff, 893 00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:36.480 and this is access to people who had done the analysis, 894 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:41.719 other seals that had analyzed it, others Air Force Special Tactics, 895 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.239 folks that had looked at it what you had with 896 00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:48.119 you had two different thoughts and trains of thought, the 897 00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.320 move to contact and then those that didn't. And there 898 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:56.599 there was a difference in training of tactics that was 899 00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:01.599 going on within that community. According to Eric Demming, he 900 00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:06.400 had explained it to me as the close quarters defense 901 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:10.440 guys that school of thought moved to contact and then 902 00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:14.639 whatever this other variation of training tactics was, they didn't 903 00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.800 do it the same way. And so John goes towards 904 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:23.039 the gun and is attack the attacker. You've got to 905 00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:25.199 go through the ambush, as it was explained to me, 906 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:29.199 He's doing that, and a wedge never forms behind him. Instead, 907 00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:32.159 they're breaking off into two man fire teams. So the 908 00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:36.440 only person that actually follows behind Chappie is Slab himself. 909 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:41.480 Because two guys are covering down slope. Two guys are 910 00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.840 going towards what if we just consider their infill point 911 00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:48.440 and look up the mountain, I'll just say left and right. 912 00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:51.599 Two guys go over to the left of the boulder, 913 00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:56.039 and then that would put Chapman on point. Slab a 914 00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:00.360 good distance behind him going towards Bunker one, and Chappy 915 00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:03.239 is the one, who is you know, laying hate to 916 00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:08.639 Bunker one, eliminates Bunker one. Eventually Slab catches up to him, 917 00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:12.360 but it's after Chappi's eliminated that threat, he's gone through 918 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:16.400 a magazine or two. He he literally goes inside that 919 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.119 bunker and you know, eliminates him at point blank range. 920 00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:23.599 And then after all of that, after he's gone in 921 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.480 and come out on the other side, that's when Slab 922 00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:30.920 finally closes that distance and he fires some confirmatory shots 923 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:35.639 into the bunker. And then Slab and Chappier both than 924 00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.480 engaging what we call Bunker two that's higher above that, 925 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:42.679 and it's actually a bigger threat. It was just it 926 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:46.119 was masked by the tree and the rock there. So 927 00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.719 Chappy's on the far right, and then Slab is approaching 928 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.639 Bunker two between the boulder and the tree that is 929 00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:58.719 right there at Bunker one, so he's got some cover 930 00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.440 and concealment, but they are both in the fray and 931 00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.880 they're both trying to direct fires at Bunker two, and 932 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:10.039 that's when Chappie sustains a mortal wound, gets taken out 933 00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:14.960 of the fight incapacitated, and ultimately Slab believes he's killed, 934 00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:19.239 and then he ends up breaking contact from the bunker 935 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:21.960 two engagement, coming up with a different plan. You can 936 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:24.960 see that unfold on the video. There's a gunner that 937 00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:28.599 climbs up on top of the rock. Enemy frags the 938 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:30.840 top of the grenade, the top of that rock with 939 00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:35.840 the grenade. The gunner falls down, and then shortly thereafter 940 00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:41.400 slabs assessing the situation, and the team makes a collective 941 00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:46.960 decision to tactically retreat. They throw some smoke grenades to 942 00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:50.440 cover their movement, and they break contact. And all of 943 00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:54.000 this is unfolding before our eyes, and we do not 944 00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:56.519 have two way radio contact with the team at. 945 00:56:56.360 --> 00:57:01.480 All, right, And so, yeah, and that difference in tactics, 946 00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:04.840 it's definitely to me, to me and and Jack, you've 947 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.559 seen the video. Like to me, Chapman was moving like 948 00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:09.800 a ranger like it was, you know, it was it 949 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.840 was infantry tactics, right, uh, movement to contact, and the 950 00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.039 Seals are not necessarily following that same protocol. They had 951 00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:19.719 their own sort of their own sort of protocol. 952 00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:24.840 Yeah, Chappy wasn't foreign to this team, you know. So 953 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:28.280 he had worked with them and and he had not 954 00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:30.360 only been in the field, he had done pre deployment 955 00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:32.800 stuff with the with these same same teams. He was 956 00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.840 he was no nubie when it came to working with 957 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:39.079 with this particular seal team. 958 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:45.320 Yeah. Yeah, So then is there any point like during 959 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.599 that operation where you guys real time realized that Chapman 960 00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:50.280 is still alive. 961 00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.119 There's a moment of fog and friction, and it happens 962 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:59.760 right as they break contact. So the main element of 963 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:05.639 make breaks contact. We assume that all of Maco three 964 00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:11.039 zero is together except for petty Officer Roberts. The radio 965 00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:15.199 call comes across and it is it's now slab on 966 00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:18.480 the radio and it is, hey, Grim, this is Maco 967 00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:21.360 three zero. We are no longer on top of the mountain. 968 00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:26.320 Got troops down possible, KA need fire on tops now. 969 00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:30.119 And it's a it's an unconventional nine line, is what 970 00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.880 he's telling us. Right, we know where they are. We've 971 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:39.400 got a strobe on their main element. As you can imagine, 972 00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:42.960 you get on top of an objective, if everybody has 973 00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:46.760 their strobe emitting, then it presents confusion for sensors that 974 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.760 are out there. So there'll be like one main guy 975 00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.719 that keeps a strobe on for the team. And then 976 00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:56.679 everybody else has the other marketing, you know, capabilities, and 977 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.480 we can see who's who. I will see that we 978 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:05.239 momentarily lost eyes on what would have been Chappy when 979 00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:09.559 he sustains that that initial mortal wound and is incapacitated 980 00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:13.400 because when they break contact, Chappie's kind of under the 981 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:17.840 cover of the branches of that tree next to Bunker one, 982 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.559 and we think that that whole team is together, and 983 00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:24.239 when he says possible Kia, we assume that he's talking 984 00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:27.320 about Petty Officer Roberts, right, because they were literally right 985 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:30.280 next to Roberts up against that boulder, and so like 986 00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:33.480 we're literally seeing them right next to each other. So 987 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:36.920 you know, the only thing that seems to make sense 988 00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:41.199 is that. But again you assume, right, So we didn't. 989 00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:44.960 You know, ttpees have sinse evolved and we're way more 990 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.920 deliberate about, you know, number of personnel that go on 991 00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:51.039 an objective and calling out all of those those key 992 00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.719 elements of information so that you keep tabs on all 993 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:57.639 the right stuff. But at that moment, no, we didn't know. 994 00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.280 And he calls for fire and we immediately start trying 995 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:06.800 to put down rounds well onside on board the gunship, 996 01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:10.400 we're trying to shoot with the forty millimeter bofors and 997 01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.679 on the specter we call that gun five. There's a 998 01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:16.880 gun malfunction with gun five. The gunners have to take 999 01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:20.440 that down, so we switch over primary weapon to gun six, 1000 01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:25.679 the one oh five howitzer. The we had proximity rounds 1001 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.440 loaded in the one oh five, so the gunners have 1002 01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:31.079 to do a round change because that proximity round the 1003 01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.440 way that thing's gonna work, it's gonna spin up. And 1004 01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:35.800 when it the way the fuse works on that thing, 1005 01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:38.000 after it gets so many feet above the ground, it's 1006 01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:40.239 gonna air burst and it's gonna shrapnel. 1007 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:40.639 Right. 1008 01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:45.039 So, since you've got a potential friendly and unknown you know, 1009 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:49.960 unknown status, we don't want to shoot the prox rounds 1010 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:53.960 unless we're literally we know that we're shooting its soft 1011 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:57.840 enemy targets. So they switch over to a point that 1012 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.559 natan round that takes the better part of half in orbit. 1013 01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:04.840 So we're talking from the call for fire to the 1014 01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:07.679 initial rounds impacting, probably about a minute and a half 1015 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:11.519 or so have transpired. So we start going hot with 1016 01:01:11.559 --> 01:01:15.719 the one oh five. The infrared sensors primary on that gun. 1017 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:19.760 The TV sensor. He can see all light level TV. 1018 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:24.639 So think of this like an MVG capability. He can 1019 01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:29.920 see the ambient light that's magnified sixty somewhat thousand times 1020 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.039 that of what it actually is. So he's looking for 1021 01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:38.559 light sources. And a gunship's tactics will end up being where, 1022 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:42.599 you know, if one sensor's firing, another sensor will always 1023 01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:47.360 be primary on the friendlies, so that sensor is the 1024 01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:50.519 TV Chris. Chris is primary on the friendlies, So he's 1025 01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:53.199 scanning back and forth where the IR is engaging and 1026 01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:56.639 where the friendlies have egress too, and that way we 1027 01:01:56.679 --> 01:01:58.920 can keep tabs on what's going on, and then he 1028 01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:03.880 can also look for light emissions around where we're actually engaging. Well, 1029 01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:06.480 it's in that moment of those initial rounds that we 1030 01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:09.239 put down that are all one oh five on those 1031 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:14.039 known fighting positions up around the higher terrain elevation that 1032 01:02:14.239 --> 01:02:17.800 Chris says, Hey, FOCO, that's the fire control officer that's 1033 01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:20.639 in charge of the sensors that are actually doing the shooting. 1034 01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:23.760 He's like, hey, Folco, I've got another strobe up here. 1035 01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:25.719 He's like, but this one doesn't look like the others 1036 01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.960 I've got like the main element of friendlies are here, 1037 01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.840 and I got this other strobe here. And so as 1038 01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.400 a crew they start to deconflict like what they're actually seeing, 1039 01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:37.960 what we're seeing doesn't match what we just heard from 1040 01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:42.320 slab is Maco three zero. And then before you ever 1041 01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:45.639 get a chance to really communicate that particular fog and friction, 1042 01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:49.400 the enemy starts lobbing mortars in on top of the 1043 01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:52.559 LZ and they're walking them close to where the make 1044 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:56.280 up element is, so you're onto the next closest alligator 1045 01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.119 to the boat. So we saw that strobe come active, 1046 01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:03.360 and I've seen it. I saw it in real time. 1047 01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:06.280 I saw it better, you know, in the aftermath of 1048 01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:10.079 all the analysis. Well you see Chappie literally crawl back 1049 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.800 into Bunker one at that point. And so what makes 1050 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:17.480 sense to me is that his strobe looks different either 1051 01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:21.320 a because he was using a different, different strobe, like 1052 01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:25.000 maybe a backup strobe. We had little little ir Firefly 1053 01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:26.679 as we called him, that stuck on the end of 1054 01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:30.159 nine volt batteries. If it wasn't that, if if he 1055 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.400 was used in the same exact strobe, then perhaps it 1056 01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:38.320 was the the disbursement of light based on the tree 1057 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:41.880 canopy or the any covering that would have been over 1058 01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:46.960 the bunker area. So anyway, there was a distinct, you know, 1059 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:49.960 light emission difference when you're looking at those from the 1060 01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:55.360 from the footage, and then we're literally going after, you know, 1061 01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:58.440 the mortar situation and trying to cover the team's movement 1062 01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:01.440 and they're moving further from down the mountain at this point. 1063 01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.840 And we'd never come back to the idea of there 1064 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:08.239 being one of their original team that went back after 1065 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:11.079 Roberts being left up there. We never knew that they 1066 01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:13.880 left a teammate behind, but we did see that stroke 1067 01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.920 come active, and that was the the aha moment. But 1068 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:21.840 you're now covering the movement of the team, you're onto 1069 01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:24.840 something else. You don't have radio coms with anybody else 1070 01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:28.119 up there, and the sun's coming up and Command and 1071 01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:31.840 Control is ordering us off station, you name it. It's 1072 01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:34.679 like Murphy had a party up there that night. 1073 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.880 So yeah, and one of the things about the AC 1074 01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.639 platform that maybe the viewers don't know is because it 1075 01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:46.800 is a slow moving, low flying aircraft, the Air Force 1076 01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.039 is not like them up when the sun is up. 1077 01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:56.000 Yeah, it was expressly against our our doctrine to operate 1078 01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:00.679 during during daytime operations, and it's times back to the 1079 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.760 First Golf War. There's an aircraft that everybody in the 1080 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:09.000 gunship community knows, Spirit zero three. They were they were 1081 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.360 done with their mission. There were marines that needed support. 1082 01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:17.039 There wasn't believed to be certain serfs to air missile 1083 01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:20.679 threats in the AOH in that area of operations at 1084 01:05:20.679 --> 01:05:23.800 the time, and the gunship stayed in daylight to help 1085 01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:27.239 out some marines that needed close air support lo and 1086 01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:32.800 behold shoulder launched serfs to airmen, you know, missile manpad 1087 01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:35.920 Man portable air defense system gets launched up at them 1088 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:39.639 and it takes out Spirit zero three and kills the crew. 1089 01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:43.599 So that is, you know, it's one of those things 1090 01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:46.320 like when you go through gunship training, when you go 1091 01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:48.599 through any of our formal training, it's they have a 1092 01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:52.039 Spirit zero three award in the formal schoolhouse, you know, 1093 01:05:52.159 --> 01:05:54.119 for that top student and that sort of thing. So 1094 01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.239 like you know this story. If you fly gunships, so 1095 01:05:57.280 --> 01:06:00.320 everybody knows, don't fly during day daylight at this point time. 1096 01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.719 So anyway, they're they're literally ordering this off station. Sun's 1097 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.199 coming up. It is, you know, past that moment of 1098 01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:10.440 what we call beginning morning nautical twilight, so it's when 1099 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.639 you can first start to distinct, you know, daylight from 1100 01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:17.760 from darkness. Type of deal we had. We had shut 1101 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.719 off a couple of UH commandic control radios because we 1102 01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:24.280 didn't like what we were hearing from them, and they 1103 01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:29.000 were kind of muddy, muddying up the airwaves from our perspective, 1104 01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:32.719 so you know, we didn't like being told to go home. 1105 01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:35.719 So from a from a cruise standpoint, we had all 1106 01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:38.519 checked in nose to tail on call at the direction 1107 01:06:38.599 --> 01:06:40.920 of the pilot, like, hey, we know what's going on here, 1108 01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:44.679 Uh stay or go? Everybody check in and and it 1109 01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:47.599 was unanimous from UH from nose to tail that we 1110 01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:51.199 wanted to stay and not leave those guys behind. Mhm. 1111 01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:52.559 We all. 1112 01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:57.960 Higher headquarters prevailed ended up getting ahold of us. Even 1113 01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:00.639 though we had shut off that particular com net. They 1114 01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:02.760 found us on another one and we couldn't hide from 1115 01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:06.199 them anymore and we had to break contact. So as 1116 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:09.719 we were doing that, we facilitated a handoff with a 1117 01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:12.079 two ship of F fifteen e Strike Eagles. It was 1118 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.239 twister five to one and five to two. Gave them 1119 01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:19.039 the lowdown, gave them that last known position of Roberts 1120 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:21.280 in that bunker where we had seen the strobe, gave 1121 01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:23.639 them the last known position of the main Maco element, 1122 01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:26.360 told them what was going on, told you know, hey, 1123 01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.840 it's hot, don't go back up there. And then in 1124 01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:32.840 that fog and friction, none of that information makes it 1125 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:36.239 to the QRF, the Quick Reaction Force helicopters that are 1126 01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:39.239 raisor zero one and zero two, with the Ranger elements 1127 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:42.119 that are coming in to help build those guys out. 1128 01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:46.559 They do a seventeen plus hour stand. At this point 1129 01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:51.599 We've recovered up in Uzbekistan, so I'm not there for 1130 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.840 the rest of that battle, but it was a significant 1131 01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:57.199 one and the Rangers saved the day. 1132 01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:02.519 So in Shillings video, because we see like the time 1133 01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:09.079 after Chapman recovers and then re engages what what uh? 1134 01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:11.360 And that's one video I believe right, it's not a 1135 01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.800 compilation video, so it's one. 1136 01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:21.039 Video that he has he has narrated. There are splicing 1137 01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:25.960 of different sensors times during during that, but they're all 1138 01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:30.920 times synced. So it is as accurate of a depiction 1139 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:35.600 as you could get from the totality of footage that existed. 1140 01:08:35.319 --> 01:08:39.119 So you do you recall what the other because because 1141 01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:45.319 you left as Chapman crawled back into Bunker one and 1142 01:08:45.399 --> 01:08:49.319 then and then there's still like Chapman like there's hours 1143 01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:53.279 after that, correct hours where he continues to fight. Do 1144 01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:55.680 you know what other platforms were involved in that? 1145 01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:00.359 Yeah, so there's a there's a Navy platform that nobody 1146 01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:05.119 wants to talk about. There's predator that is up there. 1147 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:11.319 That's the majority of the other footage. But the when 1148 01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:17.640 I mentioned the the Roberts footage before, the Navy possesses 1149 01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:20.520 the footage that showed what Roberts did up there that night, 1150 01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:24.199 and okay, and they're they're part of why why you 1151 01:09:24.199 --> 01:09:25.159 don't see it anymore? 1152 01:09:25.399 --> 01:09:31.399 Yeah. So so at any point in time, Uh so, 1153 01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:35.680 so with these predator feeds and these other platforms, are 1154 01:09:35.720 --> 01:09:39.920 are there people real time watching Chapman continue to fight? 1155 01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:46.800 Yes? Yeah, so there the the theories like if you 1156 01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:49.279 go back to the book that was written by Malcolm 1157 01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:53.880 McPherson called Roberts Ridge, he he had you know, access 1158 01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:57.239 to the people and the studies and the information that 1159 01:09:57.279 --> 01:09:58.880 was out there at the time. I think that book 1160 01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:03.840 published in five The theories were there were there were 1161 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:07.119 three of them. People thought that that that person still 1162 01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:10.199 fighting up there was Roberts. Then there was the Air 1163 01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:12.880 Force's uh, you know side of it, that it was Chapman. 1164 01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:16.159 And then the competing theory was that it was red 1165 01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:20.359 on red as an enemy fighting enemy in broad daylight 1166 01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:23.960 in close quarters, shooting each other in the face, right, 1167 01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:27.760 that one that one does not hold water. Yeah, and 1168 01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:32.479 that that continues to be part of the counter narrative 1169 01:10:32.600 --> 01:10:36.439 that the Navy pushed the whole time so that they 1170 01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.279 didn't have to face the music. That Chapman survived. He 1171 01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:44.479 was unfortunately left now at the time, in real time, 1172 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:48.079 like they didn't know. I believe that they they assumed 1173 01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:49.079 that he was taken out. 1174 01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:49.760 Okay. 1175 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:52.520 I think that was just straight up fog and friction 1176 01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:57.159 of war and an honest mistake and under the tactical circumstances. 1177 01:10:57.479 --> 01:10:59.840 Whether the Seals ever want to admit that they left 1178 01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:02.920 somebody behind, it just is what it is, and that's 1179 01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:06.840 what happened in this case. Yeah, So like I don't 1180 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:11.239 fault anybody for that at all. You know, look back 1181 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.479 in the you know the cases that I tell you 1182 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:17.920 where our mistakes were re assault fires, the fracture side 1183 01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:21.079 the night before, you know, clarifying, Hey, we saw a 1184 01:11:21.119 --> 01:11:23.560 strobe in the midst of all that. Like, there's so 1185 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:25.720 many things that could be hot washed and debriefed and 1186 01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:28.199 everybody could learn and be better and be stronger the 1187 01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:32.319 next day for it, if people would have the integrity 1188 01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:36.560 to just own your mistake and accept it and make 1189 01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:40.439 yourself and your organization, your unit bigger, better, faster, stronger tomorrow. 1190 01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:44.119 Well, you know, and there's obviously there there's a reason, 1191 01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:46.920 or at least a perceived reason why they don't, whether 1192 01:11:47.000 --> 01:11:50.960 it's internal you know, you know higher going oh you know, 1193 01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:53.720 you messed up, or it's the public, the public not 1194 01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:56.439 understanding fog wort. You know, we can look at stuff 1195 01:11:56.439 --> 01:11:58.479 like Tilman, like we can look at all these things, 1196 01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:02.439 and people have been in comberos, you know, what should happens. Unfortunately, 1197 01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:05.199 like there there is the fog war. You know, their 1198 01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:08.279 mistakes happen all the time. It's horrible. We try to 1199 01:12:08.319 --> 01:12:11.640 mitigate it, but they happen, and the civilians won't. The 1200 01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:15.399 civilians often won't get that, they don't understand how those 1201 01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:19.479 things happen. And also if there's there's you know, punitive 1202 01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:22.880 stuff going on. But I thought what was really interesting 1203 01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:25.159 with this is you told us something that we had 1204 01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:31.279 never heard before, that that this looks like or I 1205 01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:33.640 don't want to say it, well to me, I'll say, 1206 01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:36.079 to me, it looks like it was a cover up 1207 01:12:36.079 --> 01:12:41.840 from the very beginning, because you said that that Deak 1208 01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:46.439 group actually sent people up to confiscate the video. 1209 01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:50.880 Yeah, the very naxt day, the very next day, so 1210 01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:55.239 you know that period of darkness is three to four March, right, 1211 01:12:55.279 --> 01:12:59.239 So we're landing in the early daylight hours of four March. 1212 01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:03.640 The next day, on the fifth, somebody had showed up 1213 01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:08.119 at Uzbekistan, at Karshi Kanabad and confiscated the tapes. 1214 01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:12.239 Did they even have like the authority to do that, 1215 01:13:12.279 --> 01:13:14.319 because you guys are in like separate commands. 1216 01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.600 That's a good question, you know. So a couple of 1217 01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:23.359 dudes showed up said handed over. You know, I went 1218 01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:27.439 there when when that east happened. I know who was 1219 01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:30.560 I've spoken directly to him. He said it was two 1220 01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:35.000 guys from Blue that showed up in suits, not in 1221 01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:38.039 uniform and said you'll hand it over. And it was 1222 01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:43.279 based on their commander down the barroom. So exactly what 1223 01:13:43.399 --> 01:13:47.239 authority they cited. But yeah, at that point we fell 1224 01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:50.439 subordinate to what would have been Task Force Dagger, and 1225 01:13:50.479 --> 01:13:54.119 then you know, there's a there's a handful of elements. 1226 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.479 I don't want to mistate anything, but I went I 1227 01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:00.600 was part of everything from TIF Sword to DAG to 1228 01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:03.720 support in k Bar and somewhere in there t F 1229 01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:07.520 eleven showed up. So there's a there's a whole you know, 1230 01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:11.680 change of like who's running what show. 1231 01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:14.800 But it wasn't It wasn't like somebody coming down from Jaysock, 1232 01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:18.520 for instance. It was directly from the command itself, from 1233 01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:21.840 from DEV Group coming which is what makes it particularly 1234 01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:23.079 odd or regular. 1235 01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:26.760 That's my understanding. Now, I don't know, you know, like 1236 01:14:27.479 --> 01:14:30.119 I think everybody that is familiar with this knows that 1237 01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:34.720 General Trebone was the DCG, the Deputy Commanding General at 1238 01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:38.039 the time that was there forward with them, So I 1239 01:14:38.039 --> 01:14:41.319 don't know if they cited his name or authority or what, 1240 01:14:41.479 --> 01:14:44.079 but yeah, they confiscated it. 1241 01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:45.960 Yeah that you know. 1242 01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:47.800 So here's the funny thing, and I'll fast forward a 1243 01:14:47.840 --> 01:14:52.239 little bit. But those tapes are initially recorded on VHS, 1244 01:14:52.520 --> 01:14:55.560 they're converted to the digital and stored on a CD 1245 01:14:55.720 --> 01:14:59.239 ROM and the VHS is get recorded over and you 1246 01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:03.159 know Rinston repeated, you know, on mission after mission, so 1247 01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:08.079 they're washed out of the VHS, they're stored on the digital. Well, 1248 01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:12.720 the analyst had already uploaded that stuff to DoD because 1249 01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:16.079 of the significance of what had happened. So that stuff 1250 01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:20.479 had transited via email over a server that was deployed 1251 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.359 with this we called it the Terror Server. Well, in 1252 01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:27.800 the end they confiscated the cd ROMs. What they didn't 1253 01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:32.840 realize is that the packets of information that transited over 1254 01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:36.479 that Terror server still resided on the Terra server itself. 1255 01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:40.479 They just happened to be partitioned into two thousand little chunks. 1256 01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:46.479 So in the end, during the Air Force research they 1257 01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:50.640 pieced all of that together complainte with all the correct timestamps. 1258 01:15:51.359 --> 01:15:54.159 I know the individual that did it, Jackie, did a 1259 01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:57.279 hell of a job on that one, between her and 1260 01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:00.520 Frank Daily, the analysts that was there at the time 1261 01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:04.760 and started out as the initial analyst to do the 1262 01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:09.640 research for John Chapman's Medal of Honor. What would have 1263 01:16:09.640 --> 01:16:13.279 been the it was like a higher valor review board 1264 01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:16.800 or something valor decoration board or something that was commissioned 1265 01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:20.399 by the Air Force Special Operations Command based on guidance 1266 01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:21.640 from the Secretary of the Air Force. 1267 01:16:22.159 --> 01:16:23.960 Rob Just one quick follow up to that. 1268 01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:28.479 In your career, how many times do you have mi 1269 01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:31.439 ib's show up and confiscate tapeline? 1270 01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:35.000 Yeah? Do you ever see anybody from Red or Green 1271 01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:35.600 or any. 1272 01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:41.119 Or another command, a superior command, a subordinate command, anything. 1273 01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:47.840 Yeah. So the moment we landed, our number two in 1274 01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:52.439 command for the specters that were deployed, he met us 1275 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:55.399 at the aircraft the moment that the crew door opened 1276 01:16:55.439 --> 01:16:57.920 and said, give me the tapes. Not welcome back, not 1277 01:16:58.039 --> 01:17:01.600 how you doing, just give me the tapes. So we 1278 01:17:01.640 --> 01:17:05.680 gave him the tapes. We knew that, you know, something 1279 01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:08.840 significant had transpired. How we just covered the mission, right. 1280 01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:12.960 So as that's going on, he's going back into the talk. 1281 01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:15.399 I don't know what he's doing with the tapes at 1282 01:17:15.439 --> 01:17:19.119 that point, but they have to get immediately triaged, right, 1283 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:22.000 So they had to transmit stuff. They got that piece 1284 01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:25.800 done before the men in black showed up and confiscated 1285 01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:31.640 what was believed to be the only copy. So when 1286 01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:35.279 when that colonel showed up and said give me the tapes, 1287 01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:38.159 we had deplaned and there were a couple of us 1288 01:17:38.159 --> 01:17:40.079 from the tach crew who had met up underneath the 1289 01:17:40.119 --> 01:17:43.359 left wing, and that's where we're having that initial conversation 1290 01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:46.680 of Chris is like from the TV center, He's like, 1291 01:17:46.760 --> 01:17:49.520 there was somebody still up there when we left. He's like, 1292 01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:52.680 we left somebody alive fighting on top of that mountain. 1293 01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:56.199 He was still up there, So that thought is in 1294 01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:59.560 our mind. But at the same time, we just landed, 1295 01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:01.760 were imdiately going into crew rest, and you're going to 1296 01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:03.920 fly the next day to cover the next group of 1297 01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:09.720 guys that need your help. So the debrief is somewhat hasty. 1298 01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:12.680 It's done. They've got the tapes, they'll triage it. We 1299 01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:15.359 give them what we can from an intelligence standpoint, and 1300 01:18:15.399 --> 01:18:19.239 then we're onto the next mission. So this thing essentially 1301 01:18:19.720 --> 01:18:21.199 like when they show up and they say give me 1302 01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:24.520 the tapes, like that thing is put to rest. It's 1303 01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:29.840 put to bed until you know. Service secretaries say, hey, 1304 01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:33.640 what about how come you know? The question was what 1305 01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:35.680 does it take to win the Medal of Honor? I 1306 01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:38.720 think is the quote from the article from the Secretary 1307 01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:42.159 of the Air Force at the time. Because there is 1308 01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:46.039 a ton of significant valor stories, especially out of the 1309 01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:49.279 Air Force Special Tactics community, I could think of a 1310 01:18:49.319 --> 01:18:52.600 handful that should be on a list for consideration for 1311 01:18:52.800 --> 01:18:57.760 Medal of Honor upgrade. But Chapman's story resonated with those 1312 01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:02.279 that recalled it. It was the strongest case for evidence 1313 01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:05.279 for an upgrade. And then with the ability to piece 1314 01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:08.960 meal all of the two thousand chunks of the original 1315 01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:13.039 footage back together, then they were able to make the case. 1316 01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:15.800 And then it only got stronger from there. There's a 1317 01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:19.119 number of elements of analysis that went into to all 1318 01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:22.720 of this, from the imagery analysis to the medical forensics, 1319 01:19:23.199 --> 01:19:25.159 you name it. It goes further. 1320 01:19:25.399 --> 01:19:31.720 So let's let's continue with your chronology, because this does 1321 01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.319 come back what we're talking about right now, the review 1322 01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:38.880 and everything. You're actually a part of that around twenty fourteen, right, So, 1323 01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:43.760 but between this point in twenty fourteen, I want to 1324 01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:46.600 continue with your story. I know we'll we'll back, we'll 1325 01:19:46.640 --> 01:19:50.199 roll back to this. So from that deployment, which was 1326 01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:55.880 about roughly a six month deployment, you then go relanguage, right, yeah, 1327 01:19:56.920 --> 01:20:01.439 and then and then and you get involved with MC 1328 01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:02.359 twelve project. 1329 01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:10.119 Yes, So between between O two and eleven, I had 1330 01:20:10.479 --> 01:20:14.439 stayed essentially in that particular mission UH as a direct 1331 01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:20.800 sport operator for various assoc platforms relanguaged UH, you know, 1332 01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:24.920 picked up Somali. I I came back to the unit 1333 01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:29.560 at this point. I'm a I'm an experienced seasoned operator, instructor, evaluator. 1334 01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:34.279 We end up having a new mission that emerges that 1335 01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:38.920 we call it a light I SR mission as a 1336 01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:44.039 light aircraft Intel surveillance reconnaissance. We're doing precision geo location, 1337 01:20:44.560 --> 01:20:48.039 working with a lot of full motion video. Essentially, we're 1338 01:20:48.079 --> 01:20:50.640 the find and fix to find in all the bad 1339 01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:53.880 guys that are out there. So we were we were 1340 01:20:53.880 --> 01:20:57.760 building this UH, this capability. As a seasoned operator on 1341 01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:01.119 one side, I was asked to help stand that up. 1342 01:21:01.199 --> 01:21:05.560 So we had one hundred new airmen that showed up 1343 01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:09.159 in this flavor over the span of about a year 1344 01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:13.000 year and a half. Hell I probably personally trained about 1345 01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:16.399 fifty five of the first one hundred. But we built 1346 01:21:16.399 --> 01:21:20.920 out this capability to do this new mission set and 1347 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.760 that led to me getting selected to help. They called 1348 01:21:24.800 --> 01:21:29.319 it normalizing the MC twelve platform. So MC twelve was 1349 01:21:29.439 --> 01:21:33.279 berthed out of a contingency need and they were trying 1350 01:21:33.319 --> 01:21:36.880 to expand this same mission of precision geolocation matched with 1351 01:21:37.520 --> 01:21:42.520 full motion video sensors to conventional forces beyond just that 1352 01:21:42.640 --> 01:21:46.359 of a traditional soft customer. And so while that was 1353 01:21:46.359 --> 01:21:48.560 being done, it was all done as a pickup game. 1354 01:21:49.000 --> 01:21:54.319 So the capability is literally bought and fielded. Within six months, 1355 01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.279 it rivaled out of the P fifty one Mustang. This 1356 01:21:57.279 --> 01:22:00.199 thing got all kinds of accolades over the year. How 1357 01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:04.359 they even competed for the what they call the Collier Trophy. 1358 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:09.680 It's a National Aeronautic Association, So think of the mars 1359 01:22:09.800 --> 01:22:15.399 Lander and Felix Bombgardner, who you know, parachuted from outer space. 1360 01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:20.079 We were competing against the likes of those platforms for 1361 01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:25.600 the most significant contribution to aviation, all based on the 1362 01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:31.239 speed and scope of the Project Liberty. So anyway, when 1363 01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:35.760 they do that mission, that mission is birth from idea. 1364 01:22:36.359 --> 01:22:39.479 It's being fielded by the Mississippi Air National Guard, my 1365 01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:44.840 home state, and then everybody basically goes down to Mississippi, 1366 01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.039 gets trained up on the aircraft, gets qualified, and then 1367 01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.039 goes forward and operates them. You know, whether it's in 1368 01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:52.439 Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever they happen to be poor 1369 01:22:52.560 --> 01:22:55.920 deployed to at the time. This is the capabilities fielded 1370 01:22:55.960 --> 01:23:00.000 around nine and so by eleven the Air Force is said, Okay, 1371 01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:02.920 we're no longer going to make this just a pickup game. 1372 01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:06.119 We want them to have a traditional you know, host 1373 01:23:06.199 --> 01:23:10.199 wing that owns that mission. And they decide to make 1374 01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:13.079 the ninth Reconaissance Wing at Beal Air Force Base out 1375 01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:17.680 in north of Sacramento, California, the home station for it. 1376 01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:20.319 So I get I get tasked to go out there, 1377 01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:23.479 stand up a unit of intelligence operators that we're going 1378 01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:27.159 to operate the back of it. And yeah, the rest 1379 01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:30.880 was history. Spent three years with that mission based on 1380 01:23:31.159 --> 01:23:34.119 prior experiences, you know, kind of hand picked for it, 1381 01:23:35.439 --> 01:23:39.000 grew a capability with some some awesome young airmen. They 1382 01:23:39.039 --> 01:23:42.039 really kicked butt. And then after three years of that, 1383 01:23:42.119 --> 01:23:45.680 I got brought back down to our parent ISR group, 1384 01:23:46.680 --> 01:23:50.239 you know, an echelon above the squadrons as an op 1385 01:23:50.319 --> 01:23:53.520 superintendent and then eventually made chief out of there. And 1386 01:23:53.560 --> 01:23:56.039 that's when I got that's in that fourteen to sixteen 1387 01:23:56.119 --> 01:23:59.239 time period where I was brought onto the Chapman you know, 1388 01:23:59.680 --> 01:24:00.560 research project. 1389 01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:04.199 So and I didn't mean to skip so far ahead 1390 01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:08.039 if we missed anything significant within the rest of your 1391 01:24:08.039 --> 01:24:10.600 time in and out of the twenty fifth because you know, 1392 01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.000 from two thousand and one to twenty eleven is quite 1393 01:24:14.039 --> 01:24:16.800 a tour. Do we miss anything significant? 1394 01:24:16.960 --> 01:24:22.159 Well, so, I mean a couple of just quick, I guess, 1395 01:24:22.359 --> 01:24:25.920 brief highlights. But you mentioned Pat Tillman. I was in 1396 01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:30.520 Afghanistan and four when that unfolded. I was not airborne 1397 01:24:31.000 --> 01:24:35.199 in the midst of the firefight that took Pat's life, 1398 01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:39.319 but the aftermath of his unit going after the guys 1399 01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:44.319 that ambushed them. I was there for that. That was interesting. 1400 01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:46.840 I was part of the I was on the ramp. 1401 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:49.520 I was in in the hangar when they recited the 1402 01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:52.800 Ranger Creed got to listen to all of the stanzas 1403 01:24:52.840 --> 01:24:55.159 and we sat out there and did the honor guide 1404 01:24:55.199 --> 01:24:58.720 on with our head lamps as we repatriated his body 1405 01:24:59.239 --> 01:25:01.800 via Humby on to a C seventeen and he was 1406 01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:09.079 flown back Stateside fast forward. I was on a on 1407 01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:13.520 a mission in the Horn of Africa. So most people 1408 01:25:13.560 --> 01:25:17.720 know about the Marisk, the Marisk Alabama. After that, there 1409 01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:21.760 was the there was a blue water yacht that had 1410 01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:26.079 been pirated. I was I was overhead that aftermath, and 1411 01:25:26.119 --> 01:25:29.159 that one was a mess, uh not the way things 1412 01:25:29.199 --> 01:25:33.319 typically go down. And there's some there's some his some 1413 01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:38.720 historical you know seal you know information that that coincides 1414 01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:43.239 with how the Alabama went down and then what happened 1415 01:25:43.319 --> 01:25:47.720 with the Blue Water Yacht incident, and so the Seals 1416 01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:50.560 had basically been put on a leash. And so the 1417 01:25:52.239 --> 01:25:58.359 a hostage piracy recovery type of mission, the way you 1418 01:25:58.359 --> 01:26:02.359 would typically think it would unfold, did not unfold the 1419 01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:05.960 way you would have expected. During that Blue Water Yacht deal, 1420 01:26:06.479 --> 01:26:11.439 they had been handcuffed so bad that essentially they they 1421 01:26:11.479 --> 01:26:16.880 had coaxed the head pirate off of the boat, brought 1422 01:26:16.960 --> 01:26:20.119 him on board a naval warship and he was going 1423 01:26:20.199 --> 01:26:23.319 to you know, negotiate, you know, the the transaction for 1424 01:26:23.399 --> 01:26:25.960 payment and all that kind of stuff. Well, obviously once 1425 01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:27.479 we had him in our custody, they weren't going to 1426 01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:30.359 let him go. And so then you had a bunch 1427 01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:34.600 of idiots, idiot pirates that are left and they all 1428 01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:37.800 flip out and in broad daylight, the assault takes place. 1429 01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:42.680 Everybody dies. It was it was horrible, but I was 1430 01:26:42.800 --> 01:26:45.199 I was overhead that one. That that one just sucked. 1431 01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:48.880 But if you if you think about the storylines that 1432 01:26:48.960 --> 01:26:53.119 go along with with some of the the narratives that 1433 01:26:53.239 --> 01:26:56.399 get spun out of some of the Seal war stories. 1434 01:26:57.760 --> 01:27:03.560 I'm not saying the entire community is tainted, but when 1435 01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:07.479 we look at the Chapman incident and how all of 1436 01:27:07.479 --> 01:27:12.039 that stuff unfolded, you look back, who has the high 1437 01:27:12.079 --> 01:27:16.520 ground here and that is the Air Force, Okay, because 1438 01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:19.760 when it comes to seals and stories, you know, off 1439 01:27:19.800 --> 01:27:22.880 the battlefield. Dude, we could sit here and have a 1440 01:27:22.880 --> 01:27:26.439 three hour episode going through just stuff over the last 1441 01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:30.960 twenty years. Yeah, Like I remember going through a Joint 1442 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:34.600 Special Operations Senior Listed Academy. Votel was the commander at 1443 01:27:34.680 --> 01:27:37.880 SOCOM at the time, and one of the biggest things 1444 01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:40.479 that we were hitting. This is in the late fifteen 1445 01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:45.000 time period, and we were still hitting on that incident 1446 01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:48.079 where they had fragged the hostage with the grenade and 1447 01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:51.119 they had lied about using grenades on the objective, and 1448 01:27:51.159 --> 01:27:54.239 everything was about the integrity and why it was important 1449 01:27:54.319 --> 01:27:57.359 to own your mistakes and to fess up and so forth. 1450 01:27:57.800 --> 01:27:59.319 And we're coming out of all of that and it's 1451 01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:01.680 like nobody he ever learns anything. All they do is 1452 01:28:01.760 --> 01:28:04.960 just create another false narrative, pinna metal on somebody and 1453 01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:10.039 move on and just can continue this legend. It's I 1454 01:28:10.600 --> 01:28:12.880 find it distasteful. I don't think it does them any 1455 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:17.079 real honor. I would love to respect the Trident, but 1456 01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:20.319 right now there's a handful that just tarnished the shit 1457 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:20.960 out of it for me. 1458 01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:25.079 Yeah, yeah, Now we're when you said they were handcuffed 1459 01:28:25.079 --> 01:28:28.960 on the Blue Water yayte. What was that because of 1460 01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:32.039 actions that they took on the Marask or was it? 1461 01:28:32.319 --> 01:28:36.960 That's my understanding now, Like I I wasn't directly involved 1462 01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:40.760 in the in the Marisk Alabama piece, but it was 1463 01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:44.239 my understanding that those guys went off a little half 1464 01:28:44.319 --> 01:28:48.079 cocked and how they executed that one. They were successful, 1465 01:28:48.199 --> 01:28:50.159 you know, like they did it and you know there's 1466 01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.760 great story that comes out of it. There's another interesting 1467 01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:55.960 one that Matt Cole tells about in his book and 1468 01:28:56.399 --> 01:29:01.760 Code over Country. But anyway, that was it was dubbed 1469 01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:07.439 a success from a leadership standpoint in internal to like 1470 01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:12.399 Socom channels, I don't think that everybody was in agreement 1471 01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:15.720 and how that mission unfolded, and so when the Blue 1472 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:21.159 Water Yacht piece happened, they were literally handcuffed. So like, 1473 01:29:21.560 --> 01:29:24.479 nothing about that unfolded the way you would have imagined 1474 01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:30.319 the recovery of a pirated vessel. Yeah, like when when 1475 01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:31.199 do we move on that? 1476 01:29:31.279 --> 01:29:33.199 And broadly right right? 1477 01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:38.039 Yeah, like yeah, I mean nothing about it made sense. 1478 01:29:38.800 --> 01:29:41.119 And I was I was there from the moment that 1479 01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:44.760 the that the naval warships you know, initiated what they 1480 01:29:44.760 --> 01:29:47.279 would have called the stalk, and so they were just 1481 01:29:47.399 --> 01:29:50.359 over the horizon and then you know that vessel is 1482 01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:54.479 going back and further and further towards Somali waters, and 1483 01:29:54.520 --> 01:29:58.000 then you're up against the timeline of trying to, you know, 1484 01:29:58.319 --> 01:30:00.520 figure out how you're going to deal with this situation 1485 01:30:00.640 --> 01:30:03.439 before they get into waters that technically we shouldn't have 1486 01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:06.880 entered under the circumstances. I don't think it would have mattered, 1487 01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:09.319 you know, whose flag of waters they were in. We 1488 01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:10.760 were going to get it one way or the other. 1489 01:30:11.800 --> 01:30:15.000 But none, none of that ever unfolded the way you 1490 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:19.279 would have imagined, you know, without getting into specific TTPs, 1491 01:30:19.359 --> 01:30:23.479 it just none of it made sense. Yeah, and then 1492 01:30:23.800 --> 01:30:26.840 in the end it ends up being broad daylight. Everybody dies, 1493 01:30:27.119 --> 01:30:29.399 So that is obviously not a success. 1494 01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:32.000 Yeah. When you say everybody dies. You're talking about the 1495 01:30:32.039 --> 01:30:33.399 pirates and the hostages. 1496 01:30:34.159 --> 01:30:38.880 Yeah, the pirates. The pirates executed the hostages, and it's 1497 01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:43.239 pretty obvious that when the assaulters got on board, Yeah, 1498 01:30:43.359 --> 01:30:44.279 nobody else lived. 1499 01:30:44.479 --> 01:30:50.520 Yeah. So you this brings us to twenty fourteen, where 1500 01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:56.840 you are at the three sixty first Yep, and the 1501 01:30:57.119 --> 01:31:04.359 and I believe wasn't it an article for the Secretary 1502 01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:06.279 of the Air Force for some reason. I believe it 1503 01:31:06.279 --> 01:31:09.720 was an article about about airmen, about the Air Force 1504 01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:14.720 not having won a, you know, a Medal of Honor 1505 01:31:15.079 --> 01:31:18.359 since Vietnam and only one was word then, and it's 1506 01:31:18.399 --> 01:31:20.039 sort of like, what does it take for an airman 1507 01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:23.760 to win the Medal of Honor? And the Secretary Air 1508 01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:27.079 Force like, that's a good question, and can we review 1509 01:31:27.800 --> 01:31:33.439 axe valor that our airmen and airwomen have performed, you know, 1510 01:31:33.520 --> 01:31:36.560 during the g WATT and see if there's anything that 1511 01:31:36.600 --> 01:31:38.720 would qualify. Yep. 1512 01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:43.520 That's the way I recall it. The it picked up 1513 01:31:43.560 --> 01:31:45.880 steam based on an Air Force Times article, and I 1514 01:31:46.159 --> 01:31:48.720 think that headline was what does it take to win 1515 01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:52.000 the Medal of Honor? Right, and and it was based 1516 01:31:52.039 --> 01:31:55.319 on a number of like Air Force crosses and things 1517 01:31:55.359 --> 01:31:57.600 like that that had specifically come out of the special 1518 01:31:57.600 --> 01:32:04.079 tactics community. That anyway, the service secretaries across all the 1519 01:32:04.119 --> 01:32:09.439 services ordered a review of top valor awards to make 1520 01:32:09.479 --> 01:32:12.800 sure that we hadn't left a stone unturned, if you will. 1521 01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:16.399 So when the Air Force did their initial look, they 1522 01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:19.399 had a shortlist, but at the top of their short 1523 01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:23.000 list was that of John Chapman and the story of 1524 01:32:23.479 --> 01:32:30.479 Roberts Ridge. So it worked in the Air Force's favor that, 1525 01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:33.800 you know, they still had that Terra server thanks to 1526 01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:38.479 Frank Daily. The funny story he told me was the 1527 01:32:38.479 --> 01:32:41.399 young analyst that was with him was like, hey, those 1528 01:32:41.439 --> 01:32:45.399 guys came and confiscated the videos. I just found all 1529 01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:47.520 these clips on the Terra server. Do you want me 1530 01:32:47.560 --> 01:32:49.840 to go ahead and delete those? He's like, no, no, 1531 01:32:50.199 --> 01:32:54.279 do not save that. And so if it hadn't been 1532 01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:58.000 for Frank, that stuff could have been lost and never recovered. 1533 01:32:59.239 --> 01:33:02.159 But I in the midst of all of this, once 1534 01:33:02.199 --> 01:33:05.720 we really picked up steam and we had already briefed 1535 01:33:05.720 --> 01:33:09.359 a Mako element. This is like September of sixteen, But 1536 01:33:09.439 --> 01:33:13.399 between then and eighteen, when the when the final you know, 1537 01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:15.680 like valor boards are being done at a four star 1538 01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:18.319 level and so forth. Before it goes to the sect death. 1539 01:33:19.279 --> 01:33:22.960 All of a sudden, an unmarked envelope shows up, and 1540 01:33:23.640 --> 01:33:28.840 inside the double wrapped package are the original classified, handwritten 1541 01:33:29.159 --> 01:33:34.239 marked CDs in Frank Daly's handwriting, because he's the one 1542 01:33:34.279 --> 01:33:38.199 who had had marked those original CDs from the original deployment. 1543 01:33:38.439 --> 01:33:39.039 Yeah, and so. 1544 01:33:39.560 --> 01:33:42.159 Wherever that stuff came from, I don't know if it 1545 01:33:42.479 --> 01:33:46.680 if it came from from DAMNAK or if it came 1546 01:33:46.720 --> 01:33:49.760 from a treasure trove down in Tampa out of SOACOM. 1547 01:33:50.239 --> 01:33:53.199 I don't know. It was not marked like when you 1548 01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.199 send something classified, their's specific rules and ways that you 1549 01:33:56.279 --> 01:33:59.039 package stuff. But there was no way to tell exactly 1550 01:33:59.079 --> 01:34:01.479 what the source of this was. But somebody wanted to 1551 01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:03.199 make sure that we got all of it, and they 1552 01:34:03.239 --> 01:34:07.039 sent it to us, and finally we had everything to 1553 01:34:07.159 --> 01:34:11.640 include the original gunship footage that showed our conversation on 1554 01:34:11.760 --> 01:34:15.760 board and the second strobe and him getting in. And 1555 01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:17.840 then oh, by the way, now you had all the 1556 01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:20.600 rest of the predator footage and all of the rest 1557 01:34:20.600 --> 01:34:24.520 of those clips that have been pieced together. So it 1558 01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.600 made for an air tight case, especially with all of 1559 01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:32.119 the imagery analysis that went into it. There's a guy 1560 01:34:32.600 --> 01:34:34.960 I don't talk about him because he's still working certain mission. 1561 01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:39.960 But when they went in they did the imagery analysis 1562 01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:43.359 on this. They mapped this thing down to the to 1563 01:34:43.439 --> 01:34:47.920 the nats ass like you could, you know, basically, put 1564 01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:50.520 a pin drop anywhere on that mountain. You could put 1565 01:34:50.520 --> 01:34:55.439 me in a laying, prone, kneeling, standing, tall, crouch, whatever, 1566 01:34:56.119 --> 01:34:58.039 and you could look around and give me three hundred 1567 01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:00.800 and sixty what my specific field of view was from 1568 01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:03.159 that point on the mountain. And they did that over 1569 01:35:03.199 --> 01:35:05.880 the entire area. And that's how we knew that there 1570 01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:09.920 were inconsistencies in some of the seals narrative on Hey, 1571 01:35:09.960 --> 01:35:12.319 I looked and saw the rise and fall of a laser. 1572 01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:15.159 I could see him. I verified, I crawled right over 1573 01:35:15.199 --> 01:35:15.960 the top of him. 1574 01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:16.199 Right. 1575 01:35:16.439 --> 01:35:20.119 Well, none of that was true. You know, there wasn't 1576 01:35:20.159 --> 01:35:23.239 a laser illuminated that. For that laser, it was a 1577 01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:25.720 momentary switch. It would have meant that John would have 1578 01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:29.760 had to have fallen incapacitated and something had direct pressure 1579 01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:33.239 on the switch, right, and then we would have seen 1580 01:35:33.279 --> 01:35:36.000 that with our sensors because I can see when their 1581 01:35:36.079 --> 01:35:39.279 lasers are active on their rifles. You use those as 1582 01:35:39.279 --> 01:35:41.880 marketing devices at times, and then you know they let 1583 01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:44.399 you know, like where they're pointing towards, so enemy on 1584 01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:49.760 the far side. Anyway, none of the stuff matched Air 1585 01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:55.520 Forces research is airtight. The crazy part was the Navy leadership. 1586 01:35:56.560 --> 01:35:59.319 You know, I'm kind of getting off script, you know, 1587 01:35:59.359 --> 01:36:01.319 as far as time and order of all of this. 1588 01:36:01.520 --> 01:36:06.399 But lo and behold, we briefed make the surviving members 1589 01:36:06.439 --> 01:36:12.560 of Maco three zero and what would have been DEV 1590 01:36:12.600 --> 01:36:17.760 Group's commander at the time, Captain Jeremy Williams. We briefed 1591 01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:23.159 them in a DC facility in September of sixteen, and 1592 01:36:23.199 --> 01:36:27.319 they had their intel guy, Commander Heartwell. I always get 1593 01:36:27.319 --> 01:36:31.920 the dude's name mixed up, but they had their intel 1594 01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:34.239 guy in the room as we're briefing all of them 1595 01:36:35.199 --> 01:36:40.039 our findings. And I say this because later on Heartwell 1596 01:36:40.119 --> 01:36:41.760 is the one who shows up at all the valor 1597 01:36:41.800 --> 01:36:46.399 boards with this other version of events. And this is 1598 01:36:46.439 --> 01:36:49.920 the Navy's version of events, not like what all the 1599 01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:54.600 research actually showed. And so they constantly say that John 1600 01:36:54.640 --> 01:36:57.479 died within the first three minutes, and they still stick 1601 01:36:57.560 --> 01:37:00.640 to that story today. So there's a full of people 1602 01:37:00.680 --> 01:37:03.800 working on their own documentary all funded by Seal money 1603 01:37:03.840 --> 01:37:08.039 whatever it is, They still stick to that slabs at 1604 01:37:08.159 --> 01:37:11.439 current accounts still says that John died right beside me 1605 01:37:11.560 --> 01:37:15.119 and the initial assault. Well, no, he didn't, you know one, 1606 01:37:15.159 --> 01:37:17.600 because you were never right beside him anyway, you know. 1607 01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:20.840 But nevertheless, John was the one who went and did 1608 01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:25.239 all that stuff. And then by the time he's killed, 1609 01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:30.199 it's after the element has broken contact. John is still 1610 01:37:30.279 --> 01:37:34.199 up and up around Bunker one and the QRF is inbound, 1611 01:37:34.600 --> 01:37:36.760 and he knows that if he doesn't put down suppressive 1612 01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:39.079 fire after being up there for an hour and twenty 1613 01:37:39.119 --> 01:37:42.479 minutes by himself, if he doesn't do that, then the 1614 01:37:42.520 --> 01:37:45.000 helicopter is going to suffer the same fate that they 1615 01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:47.279 did when they came in. 1616 01:37:47.920 --> 01:37:51.920 So at that point in twenty fourteen, when you first 1617 01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:54.880 get kind of picked for this, were you aware of 1618 01:37:55.560 --> 01:38:00.960 the extended fight that happened while you guys were grounded. 1619 01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:06.279 Yeah, you're talking about you're talking about the extended fight 1620 01:38:06.319 --> 01:38:07.520 on top of the mountain. 1621 01:38:07.479 --> 01:38:12.079 That John when he recovers and continues to fight. Were 1622 01:38:12.119 --> 01:38:15.439 you aware of any of that between like your involvement 1623 01:38:15.479 --> 01:38:17.800 with that operation and twenty fourteen. 1624 01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:23.079 I knew that Between between the time of the event 1625 01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:27.199 and me being brought onto to the research team, I 1626 01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:30.279 knew that there were three variations of the story. We 1627 01:38:30.319 --> 01:38:32.439 knew that there was somebody that continued to fight up 1628 01:38:32.439 --> 01:38:35.760 there after the Mako element had broken contact and before 1629 01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:39.600 the QRF arrived. That was Captain Self and his rangers, right. 1630 01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:45.520 I knew that that the competing theories were Roberts and 1631 01:38:45.560 --> 01:38:50.319 then Chapman, and then red On Red. I didn't believe 1632 01:38:50.399 --> 01:38:54.800 the like we knew after the fact that the predator 1633 01:38:55.319 --> 01:38:58.800 could confirm based on the sawing motion that they could 1634 01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:03.199 see that they called. They would have told you right 1635 01:39:03.239 --> 01:39:05.000 then and there. If we had been in direct comms 1636 01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:06.720 with them, they would have told us right then and 1637 01:39:06.760 --> 01:39:10.560 there that that Roberts had been killed already, we didn't 1638 01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:14.680 know for sure. We weren't in comms with them. So 1639 01:39:15.079 --> 01:39:17.159 there were people out there that knew that Roberts had 1640 01:39:17.159 --> 01:39:20.119 been killed at that point, that he moved his body 1641 01:39:20.159 --> 01:39:23.199 and propped him up by the by the boulder there. 1642 01:39:23.520 --> 01:39:23.640 Right. 1643 01:39:25.479 --> 01:39:27.800 That only leaves Chappie and the and the red On 1644 01:39:27.880 --> 01:39:33.680 Red theory, and the fact that the fighting is literally 1645 01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:38.399 close proximity. I mean, like we're talking, we're talking you know, 1646 01:39:38.479 --> 01:39:43.439 inside of twenty meters in broad daylight for guys that 1647 01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:48.119 had had occupied that mountain for months, you don't shoot 1648 01:39:48.159 --> 01:39:50.039 each other in the face in broad daylight. There's no 1649 01:39:50.159 --> 01:39:53.159 red on red at that distance. I'm sorry, like that, 1650 01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:56.640 that absolutely does not hold water. Right, And there's a 1651 01:39:56.680 --> 01:40:00.720 funny story when all this stuff came to be the 1652 01:40:00.760 --> 01:40:05.079 final brief to Secretary of Defense Mattis that he asked, 1653 01:40:05.079 --> 01:40:07.560 what the view that, what's the prevailing view of others, 1654 01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:12.079 what's the leading competing theory. They explained that, and Mattis 1655 01:40:12.199 --> 01:40:13.479 is like, yeah, I don't buy. 1656 01:40:13.319 --> 01:40:17.000 It, Yeah, especially because there was actually hand to hand 1657 01:40:17.079 --> 01:40:17.880 at that point too. 1658 01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:21.760 Yeah, yeah, you can. You can see that in the footage, 1659 01:40:21.800 --> 01:40:26.680 like they're literally hand to hand, and Shappy prevails in 1660 01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:27.800 that engagement as well. 1661 01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:29.840 Yeah. Yeah. 1662 01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:32.359 And oh, by the way, he was so when we 1663 01:40:32.399 --> 01:40:36.239 say that he was incapacitated, the medical forensics showed that 1664 01:40:36.239 --> 01:40:39.920 that was a mortal wound with without attention, he would 1665 01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:45.319 have died from that wound. Right. Well, he's still He's still, Mike. 1666 01:40:45.720 --> 01:40:48.880 This is Rob's theory. But I think a one oh 1667 01:40:48.920 --> 01:40:51.199 five going off right next to your position is one 1668 01:40:51.239 --> 01:40:52.279 hell of an alarm clock. 1669 01:40:52.479 --> 01:40:52.680 Yeah. 1670 01:40:52.840 --> 01:40:55.319 I think if you're a seasoned, you know, combat controller, 1671 01:40:55.680 --> 01:40:57.760 the first thing you're going to do is illuminate a 1672 01:40:57.840 --> 01:40:58.960 strove and find cover. 1673 01:40:59.319 --> 01:41:00.000 And that happened. 1674 01:41:00.760 --> 01:41:04.000 That's what happened. That's what made sense. Like it doesn't 1675 01:41:04.039 --> 01:41:06.239 take a rocket scientist to put all this stuff together. 1676 01:41:06.600 --> 01:41:08.600 But oh, by the way, we had so many different 1677 01:41:08.680 --> 01:41:11.920 layers of evidence that that prove, Like there's no question 1678 01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:14.880 about John his actions or the status of his medal, 1679 01:41:15.399 --> 01:41:16.920 Like he earned his stuff. 1680 01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:17.199 Right. 1681 01:41:17.479 --> 01:41:21.439 If there's ever any question, it's why didn't they present too? Instead? 1682 01:41:21.479 --> 01:41:24.319 The Air Force literally chose to combine the elements and 1683 01:41:24.399 --> 01:41:28.159 make it one air tight case. Right, But but you 1684 01:41:28.159 --> 01:41:30.600 could you could split those and you could you could 1685 01:41:30.720 --> 01:41:34.119 provide a basis for two medals of honor for John Chapman. 1686 01:41:34.359 --> 01:41:39.119 Yeah. Yeah, so you know, out of curiosity because you 1687 01:41:39.159 --> 01:41:42.119 said there was a shortlist of error airmen who who 1688 01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:48.000 probably qualified. Do you think that the air forces that 1689 01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:50.199 the Air Force suffers from the fact that they are 1690 01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:53.840 their attachments and so often do not get the recognition 1691 01:41:53.920 --> 01:41:54.720 they deserve. 1692 01:41:57.239 --> 01:42:04.159 From firsthand experience. So I'm not a special tactics hereman, right, 1693 01:42:04.439 --> 01:42:08.359 But I'm a I'm a special intelligence capability that exists 1694 01:42:08.399 --> 01:42:12.880 within Air Force Special Operations. So my parent command is 1695 01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:17.720 not Air Force Special Operations Command. So when when our 1696 01:42:17.720 --> 01:42:20.439 guys go out and they operate, you got different chains 1697 01:42:20.479 --> 01:42:24.119 of command. So I've got my administrative chain. We're all, 1698 01:42:24.279 --> 01:42:27.119 you know, chopped to the same people operationally to execute 1699 01:42:27.119 --> 01:42:30.159 our missions. But when it comes time to decorate everybody, 1700 01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:34.119 there's there's different ways that that can happen. The operational 1701 01:42:34.199 --> 01:42:38.319 authority can do that from theater and submit and cover everybody, 1702 01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:40.640 or if it doesn't happen in time, then it comes 1703 01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:44.840 to light later. Now you're you're geographically separated, you're with 1704 01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:47.960 your administrative chain of command versus the operational one that 1705 01:42:48.000 --> 01:42:52.640 you were attached to. And yeah, I think that absolutely 1706 01:42:53.159 --> 01:42:53.960 plays a part in this. 1707 01:42:54.439 --> 01:43:01.279 Yeah, it's got to be frustrating. So so you see 1708 01:43:01.319 --> 01:43:05.880 this through through twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen, you guys put 1709 01:43:05.880 --> 01:43:09.000 it all together, the awards go up. I if you 1710 01:43:09.000 --> 01:43:12.720 weren't directly involved in the politics behind, like how the 1711 01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:15.479 decisions were made, then I don't want to get involved 1712 01:43:15.479 --> 01:43:17.800 in that. But like, at what point do you kind 1713 01:43:17.800 --> 01:43:20.039 of hand this off and you're done with it. 1714 01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:27.000 So the last significant piece for me, it's if you 1715 01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:30.720 think about the joint soft community. You know, with the 1716 01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:32.640 point that you had just made, you know, the Air 1717 01:43:32.680 --> 01:43:35.920 Force is often attached, right, like very seldom are we 1718 01:43:36.319 --> 01:43:40.800 like the primary unit that is executing a mission, unless 1719 01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:44.199 it's like an airborne platform. You know, that's just typically 1720 01:43:44.199 --> 01:43:47.880 not us. Our specialties are there to exist other soft 1721 01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:54.000 teams and elements. Right. So when we're going through the 1722 01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:58.399 the information process, the boarding process, that initial brief in 1723 01:43:58.479 --> 01:44:02.880 September of sixteen, I'm talking with what would have been 1724 01:44:02.920 --> 01:44:06.680 the twenty fourth sole commander, so he owned those respective 1725 01:44:06.680 --> 01:44:10.439 special tactics airmen. And as we go in, you know, 1726 01:44:10.600 --> 01:44:14.800 you've got the medical professional, You've got the imagery and analyst. 1727 01:44:15.239 --> 01:44:18.800 You've got Jay Hill, who was on an adjacent mountain 1728 01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:22.399 who heard Chappie come up on the radio ass three zero. 1729 01:44:22.479 --> 01:44:26.520 Charlie knew him, personally, recognizes radio etiquette, recognize his voice, 1730 01:44:27.119 --> 01:44:29.439 tried to talk to him but never had positive two 1731 01:44:29.439 --> 01:44:31.960 A coms. But he heard Chappy and it was after 1732 01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:34.840 the gunship had departed, but before the QRF had showed up. 1733 01:44:35.920 --> 01:44:41.840 So between that and me are articulating the eyewitness testimony 1734 01:44:41.880 --> 01:44:47.439 from our video that's literally playing showing Chappie's strobe illuminate 1735 01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:51.399 and crawl into the bunker and recounting the audio that 1736 01:44:51.880 --> 01:44:55.039 is showing Chris explaining to the folk, O, hey, I've 1737 01:44:55.039 --> 01:44:57.359 got a second strobe. This doesn't look like the others 1738 01:44:57.840 --> 01:45:01.720 and then they hear the rest of that mortar come in, like, 1739 01:45:02.359 --> 01:45:03.680 you can't refute. 1740 01:45:03.239 --> 01:45:03.800 That, right. 1741 01:45:04.199 --> 01:45:08.279 So, as in the spirit of having to play nice 1742 01:45:08.279 --> 01:45:11.600 with others in the joint soft community, the Special Tactics 1743 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:14.640 community just said, hey, here are the facts, and we're 1744 01:45:14.680 --> 01:45:17.600 gonna let the experts and the witnesses speak to these 1745 01:45:17.960 --> 01:45:21.920 to these points, so you know, if there's a preparation, 1746 01:45:22.279 --> 01:45:25.520 you know, going into it, it's like, hey, Rob, don't 1747 01:45:25.520 --> 01:45:27.720 hold back, Like when you get up there, I want 1748 01:45:27.800 --> 01:45:31.119 you to tell your side of the story and just 1749 01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:34.159 don't back down. Yeah, And I'm like, yeah, you know, 1750 01:45:34.279 --> 01:45:36.479 you don't have to tell me that, Colonel, Like I 1751 01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:39.560 got you. I knew exactly what was going on in 1752 01:45:39.600 --> 01:45:42.239 the situation that we were walking into because you knew 1753 01:45:42.239 --> 01:45:45.479 that there was pushback already. And literally in that meeting, 1754 01:45:45.840 --> 01:45:49.199 that's the moment where Slab changed his story because he 1755 01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:52.159 went from the rise and fall of a laser on 1756 01:45:52.199 --> 01:45:56.359 the chest, so literally it was. You remember the baseball 1757 01:45:56.439 --> 01:45:59.479 drug scenario where Rafael Paul Merrow says I did not 1758 01:45:59.720 --> 01:46:03.199 use performance in Andy, I did not use steroids Before Congress, 1759 01:46:04.239 --> 01:46:06.760 Slab has a moment like that and says, I crawled 1760 01:46:06.840 --> 01:46:10.239 right over the top of Jump right, And we're literally 1761 01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:13.359 showing in the video that has all of the breadcrumb 1762 01:46:13.439 --> 01:46:18.039 data showing like we've gone back and established the order 1763 01:46:18.039 --> 01:46:22.800 in which they exited. We have signed an IR signature 1764 01:46:22.880 --> 01:46:26.520 to each individual, and we can follow them chain of 1765 01:46:26.520 --> 01:46:30.720 custody greater than ninety percent chance of accuracy based on 1766 01:46:30.960 --> 01:46:34.560 the totality of all that information, And we can literally 1767 01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:38.800 see the area where Slab says I crawled right over him, like, no, 1768 01:46:38.880 --> 01:46:41.680 you didn't. You crawled over You crawled over Roberts right. 1769 01:46:41.920 --> 01:46:44.600 And you guys still say that y'all never saw Roberts right. 1770 01:46:44.680 --> 01:46:46.840 You were right on top of Roberts at the boulder. 1771 01:46:48.920 --> 01:46:51.399 At the boulder, he would have had to crawl over 1772 01:46:52.279 --> 01:46:54.279 Chappie up near the bunker. 1773 01:46:54.840 --> 01:46:58.439 Yes, yeah, yeah, And at the point, like you can 1774 01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:01.640 follow their egress, the only time that he would have 1775 01:47:01.680 --> 01:47:05.039 had eyes on Chappie being incapacitated was when they were 1776 01:47:05.079 --> 01:47:09.279 both engaged in bunker two, and Slab would have been 1777 01:47:09.560 --> 01:47:12.520 to the to the left of the tree, up against 1778 01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:16.279 the boulder boulders on his left facing up towards bunker two, 1779 01:47:16.840 --> 01:47:19.680 and Chappie's on the right of that tree. But we 1780 01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:24.199 also dropped breadcrumbs there and showed Slab his what his 1781 01:47:24.319 --> 01:47:26.600 field of view would have been, like we could literally 1782 01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:29.760 spin him around, like the entire area was scanned to 1783 01:47:30.199 --> 01:47:33.039 include under the tree, like you could see, this is 1784 01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:35.720 what the canopy was, this is where your terrain was, 1785 01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:38.279 this is what you could see. And if if Chappie 1786 01:47:38.319 --> 01:47:40.800 had fallen and he was laying out prone the way 1787 01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:42.800 you described, you literally can't see him from where you 1788 01:47:42.840 --> 01:47:48.239 said he could right right, And so anyway, his story 1789 01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:51.800 changed in that briefing at that moment said he crawled 1790 01:47:51.840 --> 01:47:54.000 right over the top of Chappie. The only person he 1791 01:47:54.039 --> 01:47:56.239 crawled over the top of was petty Officer Roberts. 1792 01:47:56.359 --> 01:48:01.640 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's weird because you know, there have 1793 01:48:01.680 --> 01:48:07.319 been a number of attempts to uh, you know, like 1794 01:48:07.439 --> 01:48:10.479 after after some of this came out, then then the 1795 01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:13.479 I think there was an argument that well, you know, 1796 01:48:13.760 --> 01:48:16.840 Chappie was out of his lane. He was there to 1797 01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:20.560 provide you know to bride to be the CCT. He 1798 01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:23.159 shouldn't have been assaulting, like, you know, there have been 1799 01:48:23.239 --> 01:48:24.840 so many attempts. 1800 01:48:24.359 --> 01:48:26.840 To sort of like, Yeah, there was also the theory 1801 01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:31.279 right that he saw Roberts and thought that was Chapman, right, 1802 01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:35.279 fog of war. I don't know what the truth is there, 1803 01:48:35.319 --> 01:48:39.800 but sure maybe, yeah. 1804 01:48:38.319 --> 01:48:40.800 I don't. I don't think a boat team would ever 1805 01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:46.520 misidentify one of their original sixth or the seventh combat 1806 01:48:46.560 --> 01:48:51.520 controller that was that was augmenting Like, I don't buy it. 1807 01:48:51.800 --> 01:48:57.600 Yeah, so that's part of your two and a half 1808 01:48:57.640 --> 01:49:02.800 years at the three sixty first and then then you 1809 01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:05.239 go to the R to work with the RC third 1810 01:49:05.439 --> 01:49:06.199 one thirty five. 1811 01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:11.800 Yeah, I I I ended up in my unit of assignment. 1812 01:49:11.800 --> 01:49:13.920 I got voted off the island as I had promoted. 1813 01:49:14.520 --> 01:49:16.880 You know, there were you know, limited number of positions, 1814 01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:20.079 they were already filled. I drew the straw to go 1815 01:49:20.159 --> 01:49:23.359 out to what turned out to be the the best 1816 01:49:23.359 --> 01:49:29.119 assignment of my career. I love the mission that we 1817 01:49:29.119 --> 01:49:31.920 were just talking about, but as far as best Overhall 1818 01:49:31.960 --> 01:49:34.479 assignment for me and my family, h going out to 1819 01:49:34.560 --> 01:49:37.479 Okinawa and being the senior enlisted leader for the three 1820 01:49:37.560 --> 01:49:41.680 ninetieth Intelligence Squadron. That was freaking cool. And the reason 1821 01:49:41.840 --> 01:49:45.760 is is that that's the birthplace of Airborne I s R. 1822 01:49:46.199 --> 01:49:49.359 From a modern standpoint. Now, I got a former commander 1823 01:49:49.640 --> 01:49:55.319 who's a historian bona fide, he's a professor. He would 1824 01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:57.279 tell you that the birthplace of Airborne I s R 1825 01:49:57.560 --> 01:50:03.000 Started in the European theater. There's he's he's absolutely true. 1826 01:50:03.039 --> 01:50:04.640 I'm not going to argue with him. But as far 1827 01:50:04.680 --> 01:50:07.640 as the Air Force specific units that we support with 1828 01:50:07.680 --> 01:50:11.239 the RC one thirty five, there's a mission that used 1829 01:50:11.279 --> 01:50:14.359 to be the Combat Apple. That's what they came and 1830 01:50:14.439 --> 01:50:16.960 grew into the RC one thirty five that we know today. 1831 01:50:17.600 --> 01:50:20.479 And it was stood up by a gentleman by the 1832 01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:24.479 name of Doyle Larson. Most of the folks in the 1833 01:50:24.680 --> 01:50:27.800 in the ISR community like know who this is from 1834 01:50:27.840 --> 01:50:31.000 an Air Force perspective. Our buildings named after him. I 1835 01:50:31.039 --> 01:50:33.399 got to go out there, was there during that unit's 1836 01:50:33.399 --> 01:50:36.520 fiftieth anniversary. I know that doesn't seem like much. We 1837 01:50:36.600 --> 01:50:39.199 just celebrated the Army as two hundred and fiftieth, but hey, 1838 01:50:39.359 --> 01:50:40.840 you know, give us a break. The Air Force is 1839 01:50:40.840 --> 01:50:44.520 still young. But our squadron had turned fifty. Out there, 1840 01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:47.479 I got a chance to be part of that unit 1841 01:50:48.760 --> 01:50:51.840 while we were doing what we call the pivot to 1842 01:50:51.880 --> 01:50:56.479 the Pacific, so iron was flowing from the Central you know, 1843 01:50:56.600 --> 01:50:59.800 theaters over the Middle East away from Central Command back 1844 01:51:00.079 --> 01:51:03.720 or to what is now Indo pe com Our unit. 1845 01:51:04.279 --> 01:51:08.760 They covered everything from the summit in Singapore, you know 1846 01:51:09.239 --> 01:51:13.119 where Trump met with the leader in North Korea, to 1847 01:51:14.279 --> 01:51:18.760 the Olympics and then help we uh, we would help 1848 01:51:19.119 --> 01:51:23.279 take care of the South China Sea, you know, with 1849 01:51:22.680 --> 01:51:28.119 the Chinese like to to expand their their their maritime 1850 01:51:28.199 --> 01:51:32.880 claims a little bit further than what it is internationally recognized. 1851 01:51:34.479 --> 01:51:39.479 That's fascinating. Uh. And then from there you became the 1852 01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:44.159 i G Superintendent for the sixteenth Air Force. Yes, and 1853 01:51:44.199 --> 01:51:46.239 can you tell us about that? So now you're like 1854 01:51:46.279 --> 01:51:46.960 a big boss. 1855 01:51:48.279 --> 01:51:52.479 Yeah, yeah, kind of kind of, I guess always the 1856 01:51:52.560 --> 01:51:56.279 number two, you know, so I as a senior enlisted leader, 1857 01:51:56.319 --> 01:52:01.119 you know, we're advising the those commanders. If you if 1858 01:52:01.159 --> 01:52:03.720 you look back at some of my some of my 1859 01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:07.880 past experiences, you know from a just from the service, 1860 01:52:08.479 --> 01:52:12.159 it was nice, a nice kind of twilight assignment there 1861 01:52:12.680 --> 01:52:15.880 as the IG superintendent because your your whole goal is 1862 01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:19.359 to speak truth to power, hold people accountable, you know, 1863 01:52:19.479 --> 01:52:22.039 take care of airmen that are out executing mission and 1864 01:52:22.399 --> 01:52:26.439 so on. So that was a pretty sweet moment to 1865 01:52:26.439 --> 01:52:29.319 be able to do that at the end. And then 1866 01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:34.119 you know, to have had this is around the time period, 1867 01:52:34.199 --> 01:52:40.319 you know, some eighteen is when August of eighteen is 1868 01:52:40.319 --> 01:52:43.359 when Chapman has awarded his Medal of Honor. I got 1869 01:52:43.359 --> 01:52:47.159 a chance to attend that at the White House as 1870 01:52:47.159 --> 01:52:50.520 a as a guest and member of the research team. 1871 01:52:51.199 --> 01:52:55.640 Then I had reassigned there at the end of eighteen 1872 01:52:56.199 --> 01:52:59.479 to sixteenth Air Force, so I was you know, home 1873 01:52:59.600 --> 01:53:04.520 was and Antonio and then yeah, towards the end of 1874 01:53:04.560 --> 01:53:07.359 the IG tour, you know, you do your best to 1875 01:53:08.800 --> 01:53:12.439 you know, speak up for airman, hold people accountable when 1876 01:53:12.760 --> 01:53:16.159 when necessary, and just make sure that mission has executed 1877 01:53:16.159 --> 01:53:16.920 the way it should be. 1878 01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:20.960 Was there, you know, was there any heartache on the 1879 01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:25.319 part of like the research team. Obviously there are stories 1880 01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:27.760 about the back the backroom deals that had to be 1881 01:53:27.840 --> 01:53:30.800 made with the Navy in terms of you know, those 1882 01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:34.159 are stories, but what we do know is that Slevinsky 1883 01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:38.399 was awarded a Medal of Honor and he was awarded 1884 01:53:38.399 --> 01:53:41.439 the Medal of Honor, not at the same time as Chapman. 1885 01:53:41.520 --> 01:53:44.600 They made sure that his was awarded like prior to. 1886 01:53:46.640 --> 01:53:52.159 So. Yeah, So back up to September of sixteen, I 1887 01:53:52.159 --> 01:53:55.319 told you we brief We briefed the surviving members, Captain 1888 01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:59.920 Jeremy Williams, and Mako. So all the surviving members and 1889 01:54:00.039 --> 01:54:02.760 Maker through zero either present in the room, three of 1890 01:54:02.760 --> 01:54:05.319 them in the room and one on a telecon and 1891 01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:09.800 it's us presenting information to them, and then the only 1892 01:54:09.840 --> 01:54:14.000 other extra person in the room is Commander Hartwell. At 1893 01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:16.960 the end of that meeting, we're getting ready to shuffle 1894 01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:21.680 out the door and Jeremy Williams is sitting right next 1895 01:54:21.680 --> 01:54:24.720 to He's standing next to Slab close to the exit. 1896 01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:28.399 He just looks over at Slily's like, huh, maybe we 1897 01:54:28.439 --> 01:54:33.199 should look at upgrading yours. This is September of sixteen. 1898 01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:39.279 By December of sixteen, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mavis 1899 01:54:39.319 --> 01:54:43.239 makes a trip out to dam Neck. Britt Slavinski in 1900 01:54:43.279 --> 01:54:46.199 his own words in an interview, I've got clips. Hopefully 1901 01:54:46.239 --> 01:54:48.319 I'll get this to D and y'all can get these uploaded. 1902 01:54:48.359 --> 01:54:52.960 But Britt describes the first time that he was informed 1903 01:54:53.159 --> 01:54:56.439 that he was going to be receiving the Medal of Honor, 1904 01:54:56.920 --> 01:55:00.800 and that's when the second MAV shows up in September 1905 01:55:00.920 --> 01:55:04.840 or December of sixteen and makes the announcement to their 1906 01:55:04.880 --> 01:55:09.920 home unit at Damn Neck and BRIT's not even like 1907 01:55:09.960 --> 01:55:11.439 he's out of the service at this point. He was 1908 01:55:11.479 --> 01:55:14.079 brought back as a guest under the rules of somebody 1909 01:55:14.079 --> 01:55:17.239 else's award. And then oh, by the way, the secon 1910 01:55:17.279 --> 01:55:21.560 NAB makes that announcement, so you don't go from September 1911 01:55:21.600 --> 01:55:25.680 of sixteen, Captain Jeremy Williams saying maybe we should look 1912 01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:31.760 it upgrading yours to sect navs showing up within ninety days, right, Like, 1913 01:55:32.119 --> 01:55:35.640 medals of honor do not happen that fast, especially ones 1914 01:55:35.640 --> 01:55:38.359 that are from events that are you know, what would 1915 01:55:38.359 --> 01:55:41.560 that have been sixteen? Go back to two that would 1916 01:55:41.560 --> 01:55:42.640 have been fourteen years old. 1917 01:55:42.840 --> 01:55:49.520 Yeah, and it's not as if new information came out, 1918 01:55:50.159 --> 01:55:53.920 favorite Slavinski, Were you an intel guy? 1919 01:55:56.880 --> 01:55:59.840 I mean that as a compliment, yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, 1920 01:56:00.399 --> 01:56:05.079 so yeah, no, there's no new information for slab, so 1921 01:56:05.520 --> 01:56:10.479 like everybody knew, all right, So back up to the 1922 01:56:10.479 --> 01:56:14.840 the original decorations that were handed out for Britt Slovinski 1923 01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:18.520 and John Chapman where their respective Service crosses. Slav was 1924 01:56:18.560 --> 01:56:23.039 awarded the Navy Cross, Chappe was awarded the Air Force Cross. 1925 01:56:23.560 --> 01:56:27.279 And that was for them being credited to storming and 1926 01:56:27.319 --> 01:56:31.800 eliminating Bunker one, saving the team. Right, we'll go back 1927 01:56:31.800 --> 01:56:35.520 and look at the footage. Tell me who eliminated Bunker one? 1928 01:56:35.800 --> 01:56:37.479 Right, right? 1929 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:41.520 And wasn't Britt Slevinski? Was he present? Was he? Was 1930 01:56:41.520 --> 01:56:43.640 he part of all of this? As of freaking lutely, 1931 01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:47.319 I won't take anything from the dude, except for when 1932 01:56:47.359 --> 01:56:49.520 you want to go down the road of stolen valor 1933 01:56:49.720 --> 01:56:54.319 and Navy false narratives. Right, that's that's crap. And then 1934 01:56:54.479 --> 01:56:58.319 now you're tarnishing the legacy of John Chapman. Now it's 1935 01:56:58.319 --> 01:57:01.159 cemented in the history books, right, Chappy has his Medal 1936 01:57:01.159 --> 01:57:03.439 of Honor, and it is what it is. But then 1937 01:57:03.560 --> 01:57:07.039 fast forward to after all of this and the you know, 1938 01:57:07.199 --> 01:57:10.439 the museum, and then they just take a big dump 1939 01:57:10.520 --> 01:57:11.479 all over the guy again. 1940 01:57:11.680 --> 01:57:14.279 Well, it's it's the Navy Seal Museum sponsored by the 1941 01:57:14.279 --> 01:57:22.000 Medal of Honor, tadda, you know. So, yeah, and then 1942 01:57:22.079 --> 01:57:26.880 for you you wrap up at Joint Force Joint Forest 1943 01:57:26.880 --> 01:57:29.319 Headquarters cyber right. 1944 01:57:29.399 --> 01:57:34.960 Yeah, this we were downsizing the Inspector General Team. I 1945 01:57:35.039 --> 01:57:37.479 still had a little bit of time left before I 1946 01:57:37.640 --> 01:57:40.600 was before I was actually retiring, and so from my 1947 01:57:40.680 --> 01:57:43.840 last twelve months I served as a senior enlisted leader 1948 01:57:43.960 --> 01:57:49.119 for for a cyber element that was was there in Texas. 1949 01:57:50.079 --> 01:57:52.359 There's a number of them on the Joint Force Headquarters side. 1950 01:57:52.720 --> 01:57:57.279 They aligned to US cybercom UH and then they execute 1951 01:57:57.359 --> 01:58:02.079 various various mission based on their geographic alignment, depending on 1952 01:58:02.560 --> 01:58:05.319 who's who's in the lead. Like the Army runs one, 1953 01:58:05.399 --> 01:58:07.319 the Navy runs one, the Air Force runs one. 1954 01:58:07.960 --> 01:58:11.159 Fantastic and so what about now, like, what are you 1955 01:58:11.239 --> 01:58:13.640 doing post Air Force career? 1956 01:58:15.000 --> 01:58:19.239 So I retired from active duty. I didn't I didn't 1957 01:58:19.279 --> 01:58:22.159 go too far from the herd. You know we I 1958 01:58:22.199 --> 01:58:25.119 think we kind of like to stay with our tribe. 1959 01:58:25.439 --> 01:58:28.079 I got. I got a wife who's who's not very 1960 01:58:28.199 --> 01:58:31.760 risk averse. My goal was to to not be a 1961 01:58:31.800 --> 01:58:34.199 government mule. I wanted to move as far away from 1962 01:58:34.600 --> 01:58:38.600 from the actual service. I wanted to go hit industry 1963 01:58:38.680 --> 01:58:40.640 and you know, see where I could make my mark 1964 01:58:41.119 --> 01:58:45.079 as a civilian. Truly, she was like no, no, no, no, no, 1965 01:58:45.119 --> 01:58:48.439 that that's cutthroat. I'm like, yeah, that's fine with me. 1966 01:58:48.520 --> 01:58:49.279 I'm going to survive. 1967 01:58:50.239 --> 01:58:54.319 But but anyway, it becomes a family decision at that point, 1968 01:58:54.399 --> 01:58:57.239 so I stayed close by. I'm still working in the 1969 01:58:57.239 --> 01:59:00.560 intelligence community as a as a government civilian. Now, I 1970 01:59:00.960 --> 01:59:05.079 did a transition moment as a as a contractor, as 1971 01:59:05.399 --> 01:59:09.199 as many people you know do after their active duty career, 1972 01:59:10.159 --> 01:59:13.960 and so I work on strategic plans for an intel directorate, 1973 01:59:14.000 --> 01:59:17.079 for a training command in the Air Force, and life 1974 01:59:17.159 --> 01:59:19.840 is good, man. I'm I'm surrounded by good people, have 1975 01:59:19.920 --> 01:59:22.920 a good culture, a good team. The mission near as 1976 01:59:22.920 --> 01:59:25.600 sexy is what it used to be, sure, But but 1977 01:59:26.000 --> 01:59:29.319 you're around good people, so that I can deal with. 1978 01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:35.279 That's awesome. Did we leave anything out? Do we working people? 1979 01:59:35.359 --> 01:59:37.479 Are you on social media or anything like that? Where 1980 01:59:37.479 --> 01:59:40.039 can people find you if they look for you? 1981 01:59:40.079 --> 01:59:44.000 So I'm not a I'm not a super super public guy. 1982 01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:47.880 Uh yeah, I've got a persona out there. But but 1983 01:59:47.920 --> 01:59:51.159 there's also a handful of folks that aren't necessarily my 1984 01:59:51.199 --> 01:59:55.039 biggest fans that that are busy pushing what I call 1985 01:59:55.159 --> 01:59:59.119 the seal false narratives. So I don't get I don't 1986 01:59:59.119 --> 02:00:01.800 get too far into that. Where where you will find 1987 02:00:01.800 --> 02:00:07.039 me is uh with individuals like y'all that that have 1988 02:00:07.600 --> 02:00:10.880 the ability to use your platform for for those of 1989 02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:14.359 us interested in speaking truth to power, And for that 1990 02:00:14.560 --> 02:00:17.000 I say thank you for the bottom of my heart. 1991 02:00:18.079 --> 02:00:21.239 What uh. I'm sure many people have have mentioned this 1992 02:00:21.319 --> 02:00:23.119 to you on the side, but I'd like to say 1993 02:00:23.119 --> 02:00:31.600 it here. The initial the initial damn it. I just 1994 02:00:31.960 --> 02:00:37.640 I just had a senior moment when we what the 1995 02:00:37.680 --> 02:00:41.720 hell do you call that thing that people sign like 1996 02:00:41.760 --> 02:00:45.760 an AFFI, David, the one the one that you started, Dave. 1997 02:00:46.399 --> 02:00:48.359 The petitions, the petition. 1998 02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:54.119 Petition, Yeah, yeah, damn okay, So the petition that you 1999 02:00:54.239 --> 02:01:00.640 signed like that kickstarted a lot. It wasn't until between 2000 02:01:00.680 --> 02:01:04.479 that and Laurie's Laurie's actual post as to what was 2001 02:01:04.520 --> 02:01:07.359 going on at the Medal of Honor Museum. That's what 2002 02:01:07.640 --> 02:01:10.760 smoked me out on this, you know. Like, so I 2003 02:01:10.800 --> 02:01:13.720 didn't like, I thought this was all water under the bridge. 2004 02:01:13.880 --> 02:01:17.159 Slab got his metal, Chapman got his, and I thought 2005 02:01:17.359 --> 02:01:21.039 we had all moved on. I didn't realize that Slab 2006 02:01:21.079 --> 02:01:25.880 had landed like keyboard positions and that he was involved 2007 02:01:26.279 --> 02:01:28.239 such in such a high manner with the Medal of 2008 02:01:28.279 --> 02:01:32.000 Honor Museum, not to mention the Congressional Medal of Honor Society. 2009 02:01:33.399 --> 02:01:36.079 And then then I start looking based off of what 2010 02:01:36.159 --> 02:01:39.199 Laurie's post was, and I was like, son of a gun, 2011 02:01:39.720 --> 02:01:43.640 I could I was. I could not believe that they 2012 02:01:43.640 --> 02:01:46.479 were literally going out there and sticking to the false 2013 02:01:46.560 --> 02:01:50.399 narrative that they used to try to subvert Chapman's metal 2014 02:01:50.479 --> 02:01:51.479 upgrade to begin with. 2015 02:01:51.760 --> 02:01:52.000 Yeah. 2016 02:01:52.399 --> 02:01:55.960 Yeah, that's the point where it's like, all right, well, 2017 02:01:57.319 --> 02:02:00.680 I'm not naive. I understand where people have power and 2018 02:02:00.720 --> 02:02:04.000 people have connection and so forth, and if they're not 2019 02:02:04.000 --> 02:02:07.479 going to be held accountable, all right, that's on somebody else. 2020 02:02:07.520 --> 02:02:10.119 But I'll tell you this, they won't get away with it, 2021 02:02:10.600 --> 02:02:12.960 so I will do my best to make sure that 2022 02:02:13.000 --> 02:02:16.760 the truth is known and understood. Chapman is a bona 2023 02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:21.720 fide friggin' hero that is an amazing one, and I 2024 02:02:21.720 --> 02:02:26.079 can't wait until that story becomes more broadly understood. You know, 2025 02:02:26.159 --> 02:02:30.479 there are efforts underway to do all of that, but 2026 02:02:31.239 --> 02:02:33.119 you just like you have to take with a grain 2027 02:02:33.159 --> 02:02:36.880 of salt. And I hate to say this because it 2028 02:02:37.279 --> 02:02:40.079 then tarnishes the rest of the good seals that are 2029 02:02:40.119 --> 02:02:43.720 out there. But if you hear a story about Seals 2030 02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:47.279 and heroics, you might want to consider that like a 2031 02:02:47.319 --> 02:02:50.920 barroom legend, you know, you know those stories where you 2032 02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:54.199 just have to have ten percent truth and then it 2033 02:02:54.239 --> 02:02:57.720 makes for a great story. There's too many of those 2034 02:02:57.720 --> 02:03:00.439 that are out there, especially of late and all of 2035 02:03:00.479 --> 02:03:05.279 that stuff ties right back to the specific personality that 2036 02:03:05.560 --> 02:03:10.079 was Tim Zamanski And then you can follow the lineage 2037 02:03:10.159 --> 02:03:13.640 down with key leaders. Wyman Howard is one of them. 2038 02:03:13.960 --> 02:03:18.359 He's the guy that they called Hatchetman, documented in Matt 2039 02:03:18.399 --> 02:03:21.319 Cole's book. You know, I don't have to go any further, 2040 02:03:21.520 --> 02:03:24.920 but how he connects to the Chapman Medal of Honor upgrade. 2041 02:03:25.760 --> 02:03:28.479 When the Seals went down the road of their false narrative, 2042 02:03:28.920 --> 02:03:32.359 they went and recreated their own videos. Well, guess where 2043 02:03:32.399 --> 02:03:36.680 Wyman Howard was assigned while that was going on. He 2044 02:03:36.880 --> 02:03:42.239 was the DOO of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. So 2045 02:03:42.760 --> 02:03:45.039 if you want to recreate footage, if you want to 2046 02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:50.359 recreate anything like the same people that mapped that mountaintop 2047 02:03:50.479 --> 02:03:52.520 and did everything that I was telling you that we 2048 02:03:52.600 --> 02:03:58.079 could do. He was the DOO, a general officer at 2049 02:03:57.720 --> 02:04:03.079 that premier agency. All while this was going on with 2050 02:04:03.159 --> 02:04:05.760 the Medal of Honor upgrade and the board and the 2051 02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:08.239 seal false narrative and the subversion efforts. 2052 02:04:09.279 --> 02:04:13.119 Is that interesting guy? You know, I've had like people 2053 02:04:13.159 --> 02:04:15.239 tell me in the past that like he was totally 2054 02:04:15.239 --> 02:04:18.520 different than like the General mccrystals and the Scottie Millers, 2055 02:04:18.560 --> 02:04:21.720 you know, the like calm, cool, collected kind of personality 2056 02:04:22.359 --> 02:04:25.560 that Wineman was like he would like seethe, Like there's 2057 02:04:25.640 --> 02:04:29.199 like anger vibrating off of this dude. 2058 02:04:30.119 --> 02:04:34.199 So my experience when I met him in person, like 2059 02:04:34.439 --> 02:04:38.199 I didn't meet him face to face, but that same deployment, 2060 02:04:39.239 --> 02:04:42.640 it's the twenty eleven time period when the Bluewater yacht 2061 02:04:42.640 --> 02:04:46.840 deal goes down. He comes and pays us a visit 2062 02:04:47.439 --> 02:04:50.960 based on you know, at the time he's the dev 2063 02:04:51.000 --> 02:04:55.600 group commander and they were in charge of that particular AO. 2064 02:04:56.680 --> 02:04:58.680 He comes in and gives us a who yah speech 2065 02:04:59.079 --> 02:05:01.800 and a hangar. Well, he showed up on one of 2066 02:05:01.840 --> 02:05:04.680 the one of the slick jets. They step off and 2067 02:05:05.079 --> 02:05:07.439 what we all call the smooths. You know, he's got 2068 02:05:07.439 --> 02:05:11.000 his suit on but but open collar, no tie. He 2069 02:05:11.199 --> 02:05:13.840 strutted into that damn hangar. You would have thought it 2070 02:05:13.880 --> 02:05:19.119 was Tom Brady like just swagger and I don't like 2071 02:05:19.399 --> 02:05:22.680 not a I don't think that he just exuded arrogance. 2072 02:05:22.720 --> 02:05:25.680 I'm not saying that, but just like you were looking 2073 02:05:25.720 --> 02:05:28.399 at a dude that you knew was a significant individual 2074 02:05:28.520 --> 02:05:31.960 and he just had that executive presence about him, that 2075 02:05:31.960 --> 02:05:35.119 that was what my personal experience, you know, being at 2076 02:05:35.239 --> 02:05:38.680 least in the same hangar within you know, throwing distance 2077 02:05:38.720 --> 02:05:42.520 of of the guy. But but it wasn't until I, 2078 02:05:42.560 --> 02:05:48.000 like I knew, I know folks that work with him directly. Yeah, 2079 02:05:48.359 --> 02:05:50.279 I've heard good stories, I've read bad. 2080 02:05:51.199 --> 02:05:51.399 You know. 2081 02:05:52.199 --> 02:05:53.840 I don't think that's for me to judge. But what 2082 02:05:53.920 --> 02:05:56.319 I would do is I will I will leave you 2083 02:05:56.359 --> 02:05:59.439 with the connective tissue that when they created their false 2084 02:05:59.560 --> 02:06:05.600 narrative against John Chapman, surviving that initial mortal wound, Wyman 2085 02:06:05.640 --> 02:06:09.159 Howard was the GEO, the director of Operations at the 2086 02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:14.119 National GEO Special Intelligence Agency. At that same time, Jeremy 2087 02:06:14.119 --> 02:06:17.520 Williams had cleaned up to the DEV Group position. So 2088 02:06:17.560 --> 02:06:20.279 he's the CEO at DEV Group and the Commander of 2089 02:06:20.359 --> 02:06:24.199 Naval Special Warfare is Tim Zemanski. So how do you 2090 02:06:24.239 --> 02:06:27.479 go from slab medal of honor from September of sixteen 2091 02:06:27.880 --> 02:06:30.680 to SECT now making the announcement in December of sixteen, 2092 02:06:31.239 --> 02:06:33.680 because Zemansky was sitting on that and had it ready 2093 02:06:34.000 --> 02:06:38.319 ready to go with no new information, nothing to expand 2094 02:06:38.399 --> 02:06:45.399 beyond the basis of his Navy cross unless we add 2095 02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:49.039 in that, Hey, I rescued the aircrew. Hey, I was 2096 02:06:49.720 --> 02:06:53.399 in combat for fourteen hours. Well, like, dude, they were 2097 02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:56.159 in combat for like ten minutes and they broke contact 2098 02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:59.560 and they were they weren't engaged, you know, like after 2099 02:06:59.560 --> 02:07:03.039 they broke contact. Now did he have wounded? Like? Was 2100 02:07:03.079 --> 02:07:07.359 there a huge pray initially absolutely won't take anything away 2101 02:07:07.399 --> 02:07:10.000 from it, but look at the basis of his of 2102 02:07:10.039 --> 02:07:12.119 his medal of Honor, and I can poke holes in 2103 02:07:12.159 --> 02:07:12.840 it left and right. 2104 02:07:13.079 --> 02:07:15.920 Well be he They basically took a lot of what 2105 02:07:16.079 --> 02:07:18.760 was on Chapman's and just transferred it over basically a 2106 02:07:18.760 --> 02:07:21.199 cop and copy and paste. 2107 02:07:21.439 --> 02:07:24.960 So yeah, so there's a there's a nugget of information 2108 02:07:25.039 --> 02:07:30.079 on that one. And I'll speak cryptically about this, but 2109 02:07:30.680 --> 02:07:33.560 when I say that Jeremy Williams is a CD character, 2110 02:07:34.439 --> 02:07:37.760 Like he's a CD character, This dude is a He's 2111 02:07:37.800 --> 02:07:41.399 a general officer right now competing for a potential three 2112 02:07:41.439 --> 02:07:44.800 star position. If this man goes into a three star 2113 02:07:44.920 --> 02:07:50.640 position as a seal Naval special warfare officer, that means 2114 02:07:50.640 --> 02:07:53.319 that he's going to be commanding in a joint environment. 2115 02:07:53.800 --> 02:07:57.199 All right, How does a guy go into a three 2116 02:07:57.239 --> 02:08:02.119 star joint command his position, whether it's command or a 2117 02:08:02.159 --> 02:08:05.119 senior staff position that's at a three star level. How 2118 02:08:05.159 --> 02:08:07.920 do you do that in a joint environment knowing full 2119 02:08:07.960 --> 02:08:11.640 well that you subverted an Air Force teammates medal of 2120 02:08:11.640 --> 02:08:16.039 honor upgrade based on a bullshit false narrative. And so, 2121 02:08:17.319 --> 02:08:21.399 to take this further, the cryptic message is when I 2122 02:08:21.479 --> 02:08:23.479 say that the Navy had every bit of the Air 2123 02:08:23.520 --> 02:08:26.800 Force information, it wasn't just because the Air Force was 2124 02:08:26.840 --> 02:08:30.079 willing to share it with them. All right, there was 2125 02:08:30.119 --> 02:08:36.680 a moment when Jeremy Williams deliberately took the information right 2126 02:08:37.640 --> 02:08:40.640 and I just I'll leave it at that. But there 2127 02:08:40.640 --> 02:08:44.039 are specific people that know exactly what happened, and that 2128 02:08:44.159 --> 02:08:48.119 man continues to go unanswered because he was in some 2129 02:08:48.199 --> 02:08:53.279 significant places also in twenty eleven. So he's got a 2130 02:08:53.319 --> 02:08:55.800 permanent get out of jail free card for some of 2131 02:08:55.880 --> 02:09:02.479 his own command and his team's you know actions, it's bullshit. 2132 02:09:02.880 --> 02:09:07.960 People need to hold these guys accountable and and yeah, 2133 02:09:08.159 --> 02:09:10.399 I'm not in a position to change it, but I 2134 02:09:10.439 --> 02:09:11.880 am in a position to speak out. 2135 02:09:13.399 --> 02:09:16.640 Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on and sharing 2136 02:09:16.680 --> 02:09:19.359 this first hand. Yeah, do we got questions to be 2137 02:09:21.560 --> 02:09:22.119 one moment. 2138 02:09:27.840 --> 02:09:31.199 I appreciate the respect and uh and description regarding your 2139 02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:34.239 teammate from Boston. Can you share a story regarding this 2140 02:09:34.359 --> 02:09:36.720 Beantown badass Thanks for the show, guys. 2141 02:09:41.640 --> 02:09:43.159 That's kind of the Ob himself. 2142 02:09:45.920 --> 02:09:47.920 That's from Matt Matt Gavin. 2143 02:09:50.319 --> 02:10:00.039 Okay, all right, yeah, from Ob being badass man. I 2144 02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:03.039 I never had to see him fight, but I would 2145 02:10:03.079 --> 02:10:05.960 tell you that the Boston accent was enough to make 2146 02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:12.119 anybody think twice. 2147 02:10:12.359 --> 02:10:13.920 One more from Corbin. 2148 02:10:14.800 --> 02:10:17.279 Over the course of your career, would you say technology 2149 02:10:17.319 --> 02:10:20.720 has helped to increase the effectiveness of communication between the 2150 02:10:20.760 --> 02:10:24.000 task asset in the stack and the eyes on the 2151 02:10:24.039 --> 02:10:27.840 ground tasking set asset or is it just mixed a 2152 02:10:27.920 --> 02:10:31.439 mixed bag dependent on the people involved in the event. 2153 02:10:33.560 --> 02:10:41.319 Yes, on all phases, so inherently, I'm I'm a you know, 2154 02:10:41.520 --> 02:10:45.279 I'm a positive thinker. I'd like to say yes, it improves, 2155 02:10:45.560 --> 02:10:47.800 but you got to take all that with a grain 2156 02:10:47.840 --> 02:10:53.720 of salt. There's a the Malani report regarding Robert's ridge 2157 02:10:54.039 --> 02:10:58.079 in the battle at Tucker Gar talks about the the 2158 02:10:58.199 --> 02:11:05.119 advent of technology and how that at times was believed 2159 02:11:05.359 --> 02:11:08.840 to be the same as having true situational awareness for 2160 02:11:08.920 --> 02:11:11.520 what was going on in the battlefield. And I think 2161 02:11:11.560 --> 02:11:14.640 anybody that's been there knows that that will never replace 2162 02:11:15.079 --> 02:11:19.239 boots on ground. If you listen to if you've read 2163 02:11:19.239 --> 02:11:24.119 any of Blabor's books, that's one of the consistent themes 2164 02:11:24.159 --> 02:11:28.279 that he espouses in his book The Mission to Men 2165 02:11:28.319 --> 02:11:30.680 and Me. He always gives credence to the men on 2166 02:11:30.720 --> 02:11:33.359 the ground. He always his lesson is listened to the 2167 02:11:33.399 --> 02:11:36.479 boots on the ground. So I think there's elements where 2168 02:11:36.520 --> 02:11:41.560 the technology will never completely and totally replace that level 2169 02:11:41.600 --> 02:11:46.000 of situational awareness, but absolutely it enhances as long as 2170 02:11:46.039 --> 02:11:47.760 it's not abused or misused. 2171 02:11:53.119 --> 02:11:56.199 Hey, Rob, thank you so much. We really, we deeply 2172 02:11:56.199 --> 02:11:58.079 appreciate it's fascinating. 2173 02:11:59.319 --> 02:12:03.600 As I appreciate shall haveing me. Thanks for the opportunity. Uh, 2174 02:12:04.800 --> 02:12:07.199 most people want to hear the rest of the story 2175 02:12:07.279 --> 02:12:10.239 on the on the Chapman piece. Thanks for giving me 2176 02:12:10.279 --> 02:12:13.279 a chance to tell a little bit of what I 2177 02:12:13.319 --> 02:12:17.039 would say is otherwise insignificant. You know, if if I 2178 02:12:17.079 --> 02:12:21.359 had to to surmize, like the key event in my 2179 02:12:21.479 --> 02:12:26.640 overall career, it's literally having an impact on Chapman's metal 2180 02:12:26.720 --> 02:12:31.199 upgrade and being there and what's actually carried forward to now. 2181 02:12:32.039 --> 02:12:35.359 But but otherwise, I'm just a small cog and a wheel. 2182 02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:38.439 But happen to be able to speak truth to power 2183 02:12:38.479 --> 02:12:41.039 when it counted for that matter, and uh, you know, 2184 02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:44.479 damn a seal false narrative. You want to tell lies 2185 02:12:44.520 --> 02:12:46.640 in front of general officers, I'm gonna call you out, 2186 02:12:46.640 --> 02:12:47.479 Commander Heartwell. 2187 02:12:48.159 --> 02:12:51.560 And for a bonus for our patron viewers, we are 2188 02:12:51.600 --> 02:12:55.239 trying to get access to your g drive where you 2189 02:12:55.359 --> 02:13:06.319 have basically documented clip wise slabs changing story over over time. 2190 02:13:07.439 --> 02:13:11.359 Yeah, I will work with d to get that drive 2191 02:13:12.000 --> 02:13:16.079 at least over to you guys. You'll have like read only. 2192 02:13:16.199 --> 02:13:19.640 But however, however, you can technically make that available to 2193 02:13:19.760 --> 02:13:23.039 your patreon folks. Dude, this is all public stuff and 2194 02:13:23.359 --> 02:13:26.119 if nothing else, you can look at the file names 2195 02:13:26.199 --> 02:13:28.640 and just google the stuff yourself. It's out there on 2196 02:13:28.720 --> 02:13:32.119 YouTube like it's nothing that came from my own private collection. 2197 02:13:32.359 --> 02:13:34.960 Yeah, fantastic, Thanks again, Rob, Thank you for. 2198 02:13:36.479 --> 02:13:39.039 My pleasure. Guys. Thank y'all. I appreciate you having me 2199 02:13:40.319 --> 02:13:44.119 all Rightyboddy, thank you. I have I got one thing 2200 02:13:45.000 --> 02:13:47.359 my wife put in my ear. We were talking about 2201 02:13:47.399 --> 02:13:51.279 the petition before, so you kicked off a huge interest 2202 02:13:51.279 --> 02:13:53.239 in what was going on at the Medal of Honor Museum. 2203 02:13:53.880 --> 02:13:58.039 At the same time, Matt Koubler started a petition that 2204 02:13:58.239 --> 02:14:03.960 ties back to Representative Paulina Luna out of Tampa, Florida. 2205 02:14:04.840 --> 02:14:08.920 There was confusion amongst the audiences out there, and so 2206 02:14:09.399 --> 02:14:12.000 what I would what I wanted to relay was a 2207 02:14:12.279 --> 02:14:14.640 thank you for what you did with your original petition, 2208 02:14:15.159 --> 02:14:17.680 but if there's any way that you can spark interest 2209 02:14:17.840 --> 02:14:20.880 towards the one that's tied towards Paulina Luna and having 2210 02:14:21.039 --> 02:14:23.640 Congress take a look at this event itself. 2211 02:14:23.880 --> 02:14:29.399 Yes, absolutely appreciate it, absolutely well. In fact, i'll link 2212 02:14:29.600 --> 02:14:32.000 It'll be in the link below. We'll put it in 2213 02:14:32.079 --> 02:14:37.000 links below and I will also through the through my 2214 02:14:37.119 --> 02:14:40.560 petition send out a link to Math's petition. 2215 02:14:41.680 --> 02:14:44.680 Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you guys again, 2216 02:14:44.840 --> 02:14:45.920 it's a pleasure to being here. 2217 02:14:46.039 --> 02:14:50.960 Thanks. Thanks. Hey, guys, it's Jack. 2218 02:14:51.039 --> 02:14:52.399 I just want to talk to you for a moment 2219 02:14:52.439 --> 02:14:54.600 about how you can support the show. If you've been 2220 02:14:54.640 --> 02:14:57.119 watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a 2221 02:14:57.159 --> 02:14:59.560 little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, 2222 02:15:00.119 --> 02:15:03.159 you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon dot 2223 02:15:03.159 --> 02:15:07.319 com slash the Teamhouse, and for five dollars a month, 2224 02:15:07.399 --> 02:15:09.960 you can get access to all of these episodes of 2225 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:14.159 The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes with our affiliated 2226 02:15:14.159 --> 02:15:18.720 podcast eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy that 2227 02:15:18.840 --> 02:15:21.640 one you will also get all of those episodes add free. 2228 02:15:22.279 --> 02:15:25.439 And you support the channel and the show, and we 2229 02:15:25.520 --> 02:15:29.520 really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has 2230 02:15:29.520 --> 02:15:34.279 helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our 2231 02:15:34.319 --> 02:15:37.520 early years, and you are what continues to help this 2232 02:15:37.600 --> 02:15:41.680 thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of 2233 02:15:41.720 --> 02:15:42.840 YouTube advertising. 2234 02:15:43.119 --> 02:15:44.880 So we really appreciate all of you guys. 2235 02:15:45.760 --> 02:15:47.399 There's going to be a link down in the description 2236 02:15:47.520 --> 02:15:51.039 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 2237 02:15:51.039 --> 02:15:53.840 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 2238 02:15:53.880 --> 02:15:56.239 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise, 2239 02:15:56.279 --> 02:16:01.119 we got stickers and we also have patches mentioned if 2240 02:16:01.159 --> 02:16:03.520 you sign up for Patreon at ten dollars a month, 2241 02:16:03.560 --> 02:16:07.119 we will nail you this patch as well, so we 2242 02:16:07.319 --> 02:16:10.199 really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the 2243 02:16:10.239 --> 02:16:14.079 merch Shop and additionally, they got t shirts up there, 2244 02:16:14.560 --> 02:16:19.279 water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff, 2245 02:16:19.880 --> 02:16:22.159 So please go and check them out and support the show. 2246 02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:24.000 We really appreciate it, guys. 2247 02:16:24.079 --> 02:16:48.440 Thank you,