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Turn 47 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:05.840 condition to details. 48 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:18.960 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 49 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.080 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:29.400 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 51 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 52 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 53 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:53.560 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, Absolute Madness 54 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.719 tells the disturbing true story of Joseph Christopher, a white 55 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:01.560 serial killer who targeted blackmails struck fear into the residence 56 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.360 of Buffalo and New York City in the nineteen eighties. 57 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.319 Dubbed both the twenty two Caliber Killer and the Midtown Slasher, 58 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:14.159 Christopher allegedly claimed eighteen victims during a savage four month 59 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:19.439 spree across the state. The investigation, aided by famed FBI 60 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:24.360 profiler John Douglas, drew national attention, in biting criticism from 61 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:28.479 Jesse Jackson and other civil rights leaders. The killer, when 62 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.439 at last he was unmasked, seemed an unlikely candidate to 63 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.680 have held New York in a grip of terror. His 64 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.960 capture was neither the end of the story nor the 65 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:42.159 end of the racial strife which flared anew during circuitous 66 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:46.000 prosecutions and judicial rulings that prompted cries of a double 67 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.639 standard in the judicial system. Both a wrenching true crime 68 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:54.280 story and an incisive portrait of dangerously discordant race relations 69 00:03:54.280 --> 00:04:00.000 in America, Absolute Madness also chronicles a lonely, vulnerable mins 70 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:04.520 man's tragic descent into madness and the failure of the 71 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.439 American mental health system that refused his pleas for help. 72 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:12.360 The book that were featuring this evening is Absolute Madness, 73 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.360 a true story of a serial killer, race and a 74 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.279 city divided, with my special guest, journalist and author, Catherine 75 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.439 Catherine Pellinaria. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 76 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:24.920 much for agreeing to this interview. 77 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:30.399 Catherine Pelenara, Hi, good evening, Dan. 78 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.639 This is Catherine Plenaro. It's very very nice to be 79 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:34.319 speaking with you. 80 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:38.319 Thank you very much. This is an incredible story. Like 81 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.040 I had mentioned just previous to this, I had not 82 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.920 heard of this and I can't believe what I just read. 83 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.560 And this book is fantastic, and I'm sure the audience 84 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.480 is going to be very very fascinated with his story. 85 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:58.160 I mentioned. Thank you just ah you welcome. Let's talk 86 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.720 about how you came to be the author of Absolute Madness. 87 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:04.360 How did you come to be in a position? Why 88 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:05.839 did you want to write this book? Tell us a 89 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:06.720 little bit about that. 90 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.120 Sure, well, my first true crime book was Kitty Genevie'z, 91 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:15.920 which was published in twenty fourteen. And in May of 92 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:19.680 twenty fourteen, I was on my way to Buffalo, New York, 93 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.240 which also happens to be my hometown, to do some 94 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:25.959 publicity appearances for Kitty Genevie's and of course the question 95 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.240 was coming up, well, what's your next book going to be? 96 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.279 And I actually had no plans for another book. I 97 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.720 had spent seven years altogether on the Kitty Geneviez story, 98 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.040 and you know, another delving into another book was sort of, 99 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:41.600 in a way, the last thing on my mind. But 100 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:45.319 as I was on my way, i'm I was talking 101 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:47.879 to my sister on the phone, one of my sisters, 102 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.480 and she was telling me, you know, you should think 103 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:53.879 about writing the story of the twenty two caliber killer. 104 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.759 And I told her, you know, I don't really remember that. 105 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.360 I mean, because it had happened in our hometown. Is 106 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.439 the killings that started in Buffalo in nineteen eighty And 107 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:06.040 you know, I was a kid at the time, and 108 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.240 I remember, while I really remember it was the headlines, 109 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.319 I really didn't know anything about the story. I remember 110 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.680 the headlines about the twenty two caliber killer and something 111 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:17.120 about two cab drivers being murdered and having their hearts 112 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:18.959 cut out. But you know, I told her, I just 113 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:20.839 don't remember anything about it. She said, well, you know, 114 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.800 while you're there, look into it. It's a really really 115 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:28.639 heartbreaking and compelling story. It's it's never been told, and 116 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.639 you know, I really think you should look into it. 117 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.920 So while I was there, I spoke to a friend 118 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.279 of mine in the Erie County District Attorney's office, and 119 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.600 you know, he did some checking for me, and he said, 120 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:43.079 he came back and he said, well, you know, if 121 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.720 you do decide to write about this case, we have 122 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.360 all the original files. We have, you know, twenty two 123 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.959 boxes of the original files and they're you know, you're 124 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.399 welcome to them. Now. It turned out there was every 125 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.600 more than twenty two boxes. But so that, I mean, 126 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.279 that's certainly a great offer for crime author. And also 127 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.040 my father, Salvator Pelenarrow was a Buffalo police officer for 128 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:09.319 thirty four years, and he passed away in two thousand 129 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:14.240 and five unfortunately. But of course he knew many, if 130 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.360 not all, of the Buffalo police officers and some of 131 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.120 the state police who had worked on the case. So 132 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.519 my first thought was, well, maybe i'll, you know, I'll 133 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.879 look into it because it were, you know, kind of 134 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.000 maybe an excuse to spend a little time in the hometown. 135 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.279 I thought maybe I'll write an article about it or something. 136 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:34.000 But the more I started looking into the case, I 137 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.759 went from a feeling of well, this might be interesting 138 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:39.959 to oh, my god, I've got to tell the story 139 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.560 because it was so different than anything I had heard. Now, 140 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.199 even keeping mine, I only remembered the headlines, but I 141 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.519 did go back and look up some of the archival 142 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:55.920 news footage, and it was the storyline was always these 143 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.839 were racially motivated attacks. It was this white serial killer, 144 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.319 and nobody knows why he did this, but he went 145 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.160 around and he started killing black men at random. So 146 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:10.000 now when I write, my approach to nonfiction, and particularly 147 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.920 to true crime, is I try to be as absolutely 148 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.720 thorough as possible. I started out as a playwright. My 149 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.160 background is in the theater, where the focus is completely 150 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:23.480 on character, and I approach even real people the same way. 151 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:25.839 In other words, I try to learn as much as 152 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:29.560 I possibly can about them. So I started looking. I 153 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:32.360 look into the case and the case file, and I 154 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:36.039 start digging into the background of Joseph Christopher, whose name 155 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:39.120 I didn't even know when I started working on this case. 156 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.919 So I really, I really had no horse in the 157 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.960 race as far as you know, I thought the story 158 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.240 should be one thing or the other. I mean, I really, 159 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.000 you know, really had no vested interest in it if 160 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.000 if you know what I mean, whatever story was, that's 161 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.120 what I was going to write. So as I started 162 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.759 looking into it, this is a case where it always 163 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.720 been advertised as this racist serial killer who went on 164 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.600 a rampage and nobody seemed to know why. But then 165 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:10.039 it became very obvious that there was something there's there 166 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.480 was something that wasn't right about that, because I'm looking 167 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.799 at the police reports, you know, the actual interviews that 168 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:17.279 were done at the time when Christopher became a suspect, 169 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.720 and every single one, I mean they interviewed former co 170 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.080 workers of his and friends and and many friends who 171 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.039 were who were black, who were African American, and they 172 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.120 all said the same thing. You know, you know, you've 173 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:33.559 got they told the police you've got the right You're 174 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:36.240 looking at the wrong guy. Joe is my friend. He's 175 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.799 never never a racist remark from him. You know, I've 176 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:44.240 had have dinner with him, you know, we socialized together. 177 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:49.320 So I thought, well, this is odd and and just 178 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.639 to back up a little bit, Joseph Christopher was twenty 179 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:55.120 five years old and had no criminal record, you know, 180 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:57.480 was before of course he was. He became the light 181 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:02.080 of the suspect in these crimes, so it was he 182 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:05.559 was completely under the radar of the police. And when 183 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:07.919 you did become a suspect, it became as a shock 184 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:11.360 to everybody who knew him. I mean, there wasn't even 185 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:15.039 anybody who could come forward and say, well, yeah, you know, 186 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.080 sometimes he would be violent. You know, there was really 187 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:20.639 nothing like that. So the more I learned about that, 188 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.399 you know, the more intrigued I became to find out, well, 189 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:26.720 wait a minute, what happened. I mean, who wakes up 190 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:29.000 at the age of twenty five and decides to go 191 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:32.200 on a racist killing spree? That just you know, that 192 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.480 just didn't sound right. You know, there has to be 193 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.879 more to it. And I guess at the beginning I 194 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:39.879 sort of path expected that I'll dig into his background 195 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.679 more and I'm going to find out that maybe very 196 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:44.519 few people knew it, but he was in some neo 197 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:47.480 Nazi group there's something like that. But there was nothing 198 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.360 like that. And I covered, I mean, I really covered 199 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.879 my bases. I spoke to his third grade teacher. I 200 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:55.919 spoke to guys who were in cub Scouts with him. 201 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.720 I spoke to high school friends, to employers, to you know, 202 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.600 girl who was a former girlfriend, and eventually to his 203 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:08.000 you know, closer family members. And there was just nothing. 204 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.440 And of course the more I find, the more I 205 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:14.480 discovered that, you know, the question will be becomes, well 206 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:19.200 what did happen then? And I'll stop there because I 207 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.279 don't want to get ahead of myself. But that's really 208 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.320 what got me into it. It was originally it was 209 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:27.039 sort of that connection to the hometown, you know, the 210 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.679 offer of here, you know, our files are open to 211 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:33.120 you if you'd like to write about it, and you know, 212 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.919 then just being completely sucked into the story and thinking, 213 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:37.840 oh my god, I've got to tell the world about this. 214 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.919 It's interesting how this interview is unfolded. So we won't 215 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.960 go back to September twenty second, nineteen eighty as you 216 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.240 do in your book. Let's talk about Christopher, his wife, 217 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.840 his mother, Teres, and his father Nicholas, and of course 218 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.120 talk about his early life as you do. And you 219 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.799 researched to paint to pick sure of what seems to 220 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.039 be fairly normal, and but then you went and dug 221 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.039 much deeper. So let's talk about Joseph Christopher and the 222 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.639 life he had with his parents and his siblings. 223 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:16.519 Okay. Joseph Christopher was born July twenty sixth, nineteen fifty five, 224 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:21.559 to a couple in Buffalo, New York, ordinary middle class home. 225 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:27.200 He had two older sisters, and by all accounts it 226 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:31.559 was it was a fairly uneventful childhood. You know. The 227 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:34.720 parents lived in a what could be described as a 228 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:38.360 you know, sort of an ordinary family oriented neighborhood. The 229 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:42.759 only thing that was even remotely significant was that Joseph 230 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:47.279 had a difficult time in school. He was not a 231 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:51.879 good student academically, no behavior problems with him, but academically 232 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.320 he didn't seem to be able to catch up with 233 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.559 his class and I guess reading, especially with a problem well, 234 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.799 and they could never figure out why because he was 235 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.840 given an IQ test and he tested you know, at 236 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:05.480 perfectly normal levels. 237 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:07.039 Well, one thing that. 238 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:10.559 I had discovered when I was doing this research that 239 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.080 could have been the cause was I got his when 240 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:17.120 he was in his twenties. He had joined the army, 241 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.480 and I got his enlistment in medical records and his 242 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.799 uncorrected vision, meaning his vision without glasses was twenty two hundred, 243 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.799 which means that without glasses, he was legally blind. And 244 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:32.360 to me, I thought, well, maybe that's the answer. I mean, 245 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:34.799 we're talking about the nineteen sixties. This is an era 246 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:39.440 when teachers taught on the blackboard, and he probably couldn't 247 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.240 see and that was probably his you know, the difficulty. 248 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.480 But I mentioned that because that did seem to be 249 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:52.679 significant in Joseph's life. His older sisters were very good students. 250 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:58.000 That apparently that did cause conflict and especially eventually with 251 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.679 his father, who wanted him to stay in school and 252 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.360 to excel, and Joe struggled with that. And then as 253 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.120 he became a teen, Joe eventually dropped out of high 254 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.240 school and that caused a big problem with his parents, 255 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:17.279 his father especially who was very disappointed about that. But 256 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:24.039 that early, you know, early experience in school with being 257 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.120 behind the class and should also be mentioned when he 258 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.200 was very young, he went to Catholic school, and we're 259 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.679 talking about old school Catholic school, where if you weren't 260 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:36.440 if your grades weren't good, the nuns would try maybe 261 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.080 try to correct it with a ruler, if you know 262 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:42.480 what I mean, rather than some extra help. So that 263 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:46.120 does seem to have given him somewhat of an inscuriority complex. 264 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:51.799 But other than that, really nothing out of the ordinary 265 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.240 in that in his growing up years, you know, pretty 266 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.279 you know, pretty traditional Italian Irish family, growing up on 267 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.240 the East Coast, four kids altogether, he had a younger 268 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.120 sister eventually, so you know, certainly nothing know, nothing that 269 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:13.360 would really stand out. And it wasn't until nineteen seventy six, 270 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.639 when Joe was twenty years old, his father passed away 271 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.720 of heart disease, and that, of course was very difficult 272 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.879 for him, as if this would be for pretty much anyone. 273 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.440 But other than that, we're talking about what could be 274 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:32.879 described as a fairly ordinary upbringing. 275 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:36.879 You also talk about this, and I agree with you 276 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:41.120 that it's a fairly normal upbringing. And however, everybody reacts 277 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.840 to different stimulation differently. You also say that the at 278 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:50.440 one point that they were definitely admiring of each other, 279 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.519 father and son. But at some point that changed, and 280 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.240 it changed radically. So you say that you do talk 281 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:02.840 about how it that relationship changed and the particulars of 282 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.879 or what that manifests itself in terms of dialogue between them. 283 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.240 What would he do in public and what would he 284 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.039 say about your son in private? 285 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:18.720 Okay? What by all the According to all the people 286 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.120 that I interviewed, and there there were many family members 287 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:25.600 and friends and neighbors. Nicholas Christopher, Joseph's father was highly 288 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:29.960 critical of him, and sometimes, you know, would embarrass him 289 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.159 in front of people and you know, complain about all 290 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.120 his you know, he didn't do this right, and uh, 291 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.960 what it should be said. While I'm not defending that 292 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:45.759 behavior by any means, it was not terribly atypical for 293 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.000 the time for a father to be very harsh, you know, 294 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:52.440 especially that Joe was just it was the only son. 295 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:59.360 And but as he got older, it made uh unfortunately 296 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.079 it's in Joseph's case, it seems to not have inspired him. 297 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.799 You know, his father's constant criticism didn't inspire him and 298 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:10.119 instead made him rather self conscious. So he would try 299 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:11.880 to prove himself to his father, and he was all 300 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.200 by pretty much all accounts, he was also afraid of 301 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:21.000 his father. So and then when his father died when 302 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.279 Joe was only twenty, as one of Joe's first cousins 303 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.359 said to me, you know, perhaps Joe felt it all 304 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:30.400 the more keenly because he felt he had never had 305 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:32.680 a chance to prove himself to his father, because like 306 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.319 most sons, he wanted his father's approval and respect and love. 307 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.559 And you know, then his father dies rather suddenly and 308 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.240 he never has the chance to you know, to to 309 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.480 gain that, to prove himself to his father. So that 310 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:52.160 was certainly, you know, there was something certainly significant, I 311 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.799 think in his adolescence, especially because Joseph started to rebel 312 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.000 and you know, in little ways, you know, and it's unfortunate, 313 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:05.759 but again it should be said it wasn't a terribly 314 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.799 atypical father son relationship for the time. 315 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.359 You say that it really affected the entire family when 316 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.720 Nicholas died, the father died, and it affected especially Joseph, 317 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.319 and it continued to affect him, it seemed even more 318 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.559 so at certain points. But you also talk about that 319 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.279 his father had said something previous about military service, so 320 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:35.839 tell us what happens at a certain point with Joseph 321 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.920 and this idea that his father had said long before. 322 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.720 Sure, well, Nicholas Christopher served in the infantry in World 323 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:48.200 War Two, and when Joseph was in high school, his 324 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.039 father had suggested to him that he might want to 325 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.960 join the army after high school. And his father apparently 326 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.200 thought of the discipline and the regiment would be very 327 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:00.799 would be good for him, because apparently the father's opinion, 328 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.240 he didn't think that Joe had a lot of direction 329 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.720 in life. But that's a you know, and it's very 330 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.119 hard to say. After the fact, their interest did seem 331 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.759 to diverge, and perhaps that was part of the problem, 332 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:19.200 because Christopher was a big outdoorsman and enjoyed hunting and whatnot, 333 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.920 and so did Joe. But Joe also had an interest 334 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.920 in cars, you know, he seemed to be interested in 335 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.440 auto mechanics. So he had some interests that were separate 336 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.839 from his father's. But anyway, this is a suggestion that 337 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.839 his father had made him that he might want to 338 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.000 join the military for a while. So the Nicholas dies 339 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:46.759 and within a couple of years after that, Joe did 340 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.319 try to enlist in the Army and he was rejected 341 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.480 because he had a hernia. He actually scored very high 342 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.319 on the Army entrance exams, but they, you know, couldn't 343 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.200 take him because of the hernia. So he actually saved 344 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.160 the money and for the surgery and had the hernia repaired. 345 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.839 And then when he was twenty five, and this would 346 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.720 be nineteen eighty, he went and he enlisted in the 347 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.039 service again, and this time he was accepted. You know, 348 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.279 he had the medical problem had been resolved. 349 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:25.480 You talk also about his personality again. All kinds of 350 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.799 people said that he was normally had friends, but you 351 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:34.359 talk about that afterwards. People talked about a striking difference 352 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.799 that occurred. What were some of the things that they 353 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.920 noticed were different about Joe? 354 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.960 Okay, when he was about twenty four years old. Something 355 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.160 it seemed to come on gradually. To skip ahead, when 356 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.799 Joe was in his early twenties, he meets a woman 357 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.880 who I call Donovan Alden in the book, and they begin, 358 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.680 you know, living together, and everything seems to be going 359 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.559 fine for months and months, but then all of a sudden, 360 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.240 Joe seems very preoccupied and he stops talking to her 361 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.319 and heart his behavior starts to become a little odd, 362 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.880 like he'll go out at night and just walk all night, 363 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:23.319 walk around the city at night, and as if he 364 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:25.119 was and I think it was described as if he 365 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:28.119 was trying to walk a walk out walk his problems. 366 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.359 So of course Donna asked him, what's wrong? If you know, 367 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.759 what's bothering you, and he would tell her Sometimes he 368 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:35.720 would just say nothing, and other times he would say 369 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:37.799 I don't know, but it was obvious that something was 370 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.920 bothering him. So he rather abruptly one day breaks off 371 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:44.960 his relationship with her and tells her I'm going to 372 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.279 be moving home. And what was very unusual about this 373 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.480 was that he just, you know, he's the one ending 374 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.400 the relationship, and he just started sobbing as if this was, 375 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.599 you know, very painful for him. So she didn't understand 376 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.359 what was really going on. So he moves back in 377 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:04.039 with his mother and his two sister. He had two 378 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.279 sisters still living at home, and they begin to notice 379 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.119 differences in him too, and they and eventually it becomes 380 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.400 very stark. It started out with he was not socializing anymore. 381 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:16.640 He seemed to be just kind of want to stay 382 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.240 around the house and just would be quiet, not talk 383 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.319 too much. Then all of a sudden, according to his 384 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.000 younger sister, she said, to her, it seemed like it 385 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.519 was overnight that one day he seemed like this normal 386 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.759 guy in his early twenties, messy room, going out with friends. 387 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.200 And then the next day she said, he's wearing you know, 388 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.519 white button down shirts and coralraye pants and going to 389 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:43.480 church with us with my mom every day. So and 390 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.839 that was kind of stark. And his sister even said 391 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:47.160 to him, you know, what the hell happened to you? 392 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:49.000 What's going on? You know, and he would just tell 393 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.720 to shut up, find your own business. And at the 394 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:55.680 same time, he starts withdrawing from friends from you know, 395 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.279 not just his girlfriend, but he had a best friend 396 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.160 who I call Pewter Trementina in the book, and they 397 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:03.319 used to spend all all kinds of time together. And 398 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.480 Joe was just pulling back from everyone. And then it 399 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:12.160 got to the point where Joe would he stopped working, 400 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.960 and he really wasn't going out of the house much, 401 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.759