WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:01.320 Sure. 2 00:00:02.759 --> 00:00:06.240 Well, this is going to sound somewhat esoteric and maybe 3 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:09.640 a bit strange, but I was actually trying to figure 4 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:14.119 out how to mitigate the risk of digital superintelligence to 5 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.399 the agree that that we can improve our bandwidth to 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:23.000 our digital tertiary self. I think we can better align 7 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.039 artificial intelligence with a collective human will. 8 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:29.120 That's going to sound very strange, but so. 9 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:33.039 You could think of like, basically our intelligence is being 10 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.920 divided into roughly three areas. That's sort of like a 11 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:40.479 like you know, Olympic system, like like like the sort 12 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:45.119 of instinctual elements that this sort of like the cortex 13 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.359 and the planning part. Then we also have a tertiary layer, 14 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:55.320 which is only computers and bones applications software that we use, 15 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:58.359 so that you have a digital tertiari self. 16 00:00:58.399 --> 00:00:59.960 Basically we were already an android. 17 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.960 Defictively, I think people feel this when they forget their phone. 18 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:07.079 Forgetting a phone, leaving a phone behind, it is like 19 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.799 having missing limb syndrome. You're missing your part of your 20 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:16.239 digital tertiaries. The constraint on human machine symbiosis is bandwidth. 21 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:18.959 What is the especially output bandwidth? 22 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.400 The output bandwidth of a human is less than one 23 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:24.280 bit per second over the course of a day. 24 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:26.439 So if you have eighty six four hundred. 25 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.159 Seconds in a day, the number of output bits that 26 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.640 you produce. Maybe there's some rare cases where it's above 27 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:36.920 one bit per second, but very few people produce eighty six. 28 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.120 Thousand, four hundred output bits. 29 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:41.760 So most people like our averaging less than one bit 30 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.480 per second over twenty four hour period. And when we 31 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:46.879 do speak, they say the number of symbols per second 32 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.319 of speech typing is quite low, especially if it's going 33 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.319 through a phone. Then you just sort of have two 34 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:55.840 slow moving meatsticks that are trying to type letters on 35 00:01:55.959 --> 00:02:00.359 a phone, so you really have just a few per 36 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.319 second of characters, so that your phone is like a 37 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.640 supercomputer in your hands and it is desperately trying to 38 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:06.840 figure out what you want to say. 39 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.639 I'll tell you I've personally experienced that phantom limb syndrome 40 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:12.560 when I actually can't find my phone. And I hadn't 41 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.400 thought of myself as a cyborg until you challenge. 42 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:17.560 Me to think that way. But you're in a room 43 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:19.120 of folks who've devoted their. 44 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:22.159 Lives to neurologic disease, and I must confess to you 45 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:24.280 that I had never actually thought of the output of 46 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:26.680 the brain in terms of bits per second. But when 47 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.560 you frame it that way, it makes it really clear 48 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:32.919 why there may be a broader opportunity to make that 49 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.560 virtual cyborg that we have now with our phone a 50 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.479 little bit more efficient. So that's as a starting point, 51 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.400 what prompted your interest in neuralink. 52 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:46.000 Yeah, so basically I thought. 53 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:50.680 Okay, in order to have better human AI semiosis, we 54 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:54.680 must solve the bandwidth problem. Below a certain bandwidth, we 55 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:58.960 are basically just stationary to a computer and at one 56 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.479 bit per second. Know, that's the very low data rate 57 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.120 when computers are doing brillions of bits per second. 58 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:06.680 So when you think about brain machine interface, why did 59 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:08.319 you select the technical approach you did? 60 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:09.919 I know a lot of thoughts gone into that. 61 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:11.719 Yeah. 62 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.039 So if you say, like, okay, we need to have 63 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:18.439 ultimately a million bits per second or a billion bits 64 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.840 per second to gig a bit per second interface, then 65 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.560 that means you really you can't. 66 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:26.680 You need an implant and. 67 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.719 Ultimately will need to replace the skull and it's going 68 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:31.599 to be a zillion wire. I mean, this is some 69 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:35.400 sci fi, bizarre sci fi stuff, and I'm not this 70 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:37.400 is certainly optional. 71 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:41.159 Plan mandatory replacement of my skull whatever problem. 72 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:44.039 Mandatory chip and brain is not what we're saying, Yeah, 73 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:44.759 for sure. 74 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.599 But at some point you're you say like, okay, how 75 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:52.879 many electrodes are needed in order to interface with have 76 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.039 a whole brain interface? 77 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.319 Yeah, you know, I've heard you mentioned that larger goal 78 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.560 of whole brain interface. One thing that's really me by 79 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.840 the approach that's been taken is, I think as a resurgence, 80 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.840 we often contemplate the natural history of the disease and 81 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.520 competing risk and benefit in neuralink as a company has 82 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.960 started with folks who have als and spinal cord injury. 83 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.360 These kind of first steps in terms of technical approach. 84 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.000 So we'd love to hear a little bit more about that. 85 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:20.120 Yeah. 86 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:25.519 Absolutely, long tem goal, like I said, is mitigating civilizational 87 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:30.839 risk associated with a divergence of biological and digital intelligence. 88 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:32.879 That's the long tim goal. Obviously. Then you've got to 89 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:34.079 parse that, h L, Well, what are we going to 90 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.959 do tomorrow? Yeah, So the starting point with the first 91 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:42.879 new link device is a thousand electrodes, and with just 92 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.120 one hundred of those electrodes are active, if it takes 93 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.879 up our first few patients, you know, we're also having 94 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.480 world records. Admitically, these are world records that are pretty low, 95 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:52.079 but we're getting around. 96 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.600 Ten ves per second, and that does a path to 97 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:56.439 one thousand us per. 98 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.519 Second, which would be literally one hundred times more than 99 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.360 the next record. So we want to do the implants 100 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.519 in where there's the highest gain and the least risk. 101 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.800 So we call the first implant to telepathy, which really 102 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:15.319 just interfacing with the motor cortex, and it's basically looking 103 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.439 at signals as though somebody moved their own and just 104 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.600 reading that signal and then sending that signal to the 105 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.959 patient's phone or computer so they can then move the 106 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.040 cursor around just by thinking. If you will have seen 107 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.759 the videos of Noland, that's pretty impressive what he can do. 108 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.480 In fact, shortly after getting the implant, he spent all 109 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.439 night playing video games just by thinking. 110 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.720 Yeah, and those are the records you're talking about in 111 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.120 those first two prime patients, where you're able to extract 112 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.360 signals from their brain at record bits per second and 113 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.160 enable them to work in the world. 114 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:50.959 Is those of us who lose their phone would use today. 115 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:52.199 Yeah. 116 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.759 Absolutely, And I think we'll get to the point pretty 117 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:58.959 quickly where someone with a neuralink implant will outperform somebody 118 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:00.839 who's using their hands play a video game. 119 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.199 What do you think the timeline for that is? We 120 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:05.319 won't hold you to it. 121 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.639 Sure, I mean I do have a habit of being 122 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.800 optimistic with respect to timelines. But if I wasn't optimistic, 123 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:13.199 I wouldn't be starting these companies. 124 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.040 Probably, Yeah, that's fair. 125 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.160 But I think given that we're already. 126 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:22.439 Pretty much out a point where we're pretty close to 127 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:26.240 on par with the video game. Basically you can play 128 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.959 a video game at a comparable competent level to someone 129 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.319 with hands. I think with our second generation device, which 130 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:37.639 we'll have three thousand electrodes, and we'll get a lot 131 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.439 better at placing those electrodes so only it's only one 132 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:45.120 hundred electrodes being effective, we'll both improve the yield and 133 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.360 will increase the number of electrodes. So we'll go from 134 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:51.279 say one hundred electrodes that are reading to I don't know, 135 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:54.120 out of three thousand electrodes, maybe fifteen and a half, 136 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:56.800 So like fifteen hundred are reading. So at that point 137 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:59.560 the data rate is far in excess of what someone 138 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.399 video game with their hands could do, and we can 139 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.079 reduce the latency the moment you think of a move, 140 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:09.519 it happens instantly on the computer, as opposed to for 141 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.279 you know, currently, if you're a human play a video game, 142 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:13.959 you have to move your hand so that that's like 143 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:15.480 you've got to send signals to the muscles. 144 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:16.519 The muscles have to move. 145 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:19.839 Your finger takes a certain amount of time to move, 146 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:22.519 so you've got to be you basically got to move 147 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.040 the meat puppet. If you don't have to move actuate 148 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:27.240 the muscles in your hand or your finger's going to 149 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:29.680 move at a certain rate and set like milimeters per second. 150 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:31.680 But if you don't have to do any of that, 151 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:33.800 you can literally think it immediately with no latency. 152 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.120 You'll outperform someone who has to use a hands. 153 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.639 Yeah, you know, I think as surgeons we really take 154 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:40.839 pride in being efficient and using your hand. But when 155 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:42.959 you're a reductionist like that, it actually makes me feel 156 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.839 like I'm actually not particularly efficient. You could just if 157 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:47.959 you just think and do it, I think I'd probably 158 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:49.639 get a lot I'll get a little lot more done. 159 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:50.000 You know. 160 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:52.199 One of the things that struck me in terms of 161 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:55.519 the technical approach is obviously you have the implant and 162 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.879 then you're extracting those signals and have a recording algorithm, 163 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:02.319 and then you're actually affecting an action and you know, 164 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:04.959 in one of the patients you actually had a lead 165 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.519 or traction. But then we're able to tune the recording 166 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:10.120 algorithm to actually recover that function. 167 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:12.079 Could you maybe say a little bit about. 168 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.680 That kind of vertically integrated approach and how that's going 169 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:15.959 to let you scale a little bit? 170 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.720 Sure? Well, since you know, really none of this stuff 171 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.160 existed before, we had to design and build everything from scratch, 172 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:29.360 and I mean it's basically like having an apple watcher 173 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:31.920 a fit, but that replaces a piece of skull. And 174 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:36.440 then you've got these electrodes, very very fine electrodes that 175 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.759 are implanted with a surgical robot. 176 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.639 I mean, we can share a little bit about the robot, 177 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:42.720 the R one robot. 178 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.519 That two is to implant the threads. 179 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.360 Yeah, so the threads are really too small to be 180 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:51.120 manipulated by hand, and they need to be placed with 181 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.440 extreme precision, very quickly. The brain is moving all the 182 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.399 time due to breathing and heartbeat or just not just 183 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.720 sitting there. It's like a pulsing thing, and you're trying 184 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.879 to get an electrode to a specific depth, while this, 185 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.840 you know, jello balloon is just moving around all over 186 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:12.399 the place. So it's it's it's kind of an impossible, 187 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.279 really an impossible thing to do by hand. These these 188 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.480 spades are just too tiny and the level of precision 189 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:21.759 required is beyond what people can do. I maybe liken 190 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:26.440 it to be being similar to computer controlled machining or 191 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.679 three D metal printing with we've better a lays of 192 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.279 welding tiny bits of metal dust. It's just there's just 193 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:34.679 no way that humans just do not have the level 194 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:38.639 of precision necessary to implant the electrodes, you know, to 195 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.320 fractions of a millimeter of x y z position. 196 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:45.519 Well, you know what's interesting obviously is a group of surgeons, 197 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.840 many of us to varying stages, have incorporated robotics into 198 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:53.519 our practice. When you hear a precision exceeding human capacity, 199 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.960 do you think is this going to be a disruption 200 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.080 or is this an augmentation to what surgeons do? And 201 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:01.840 I know you have some thoughts around that, and there's 202 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.120 maybe some analogies and ophthalmology, so it would love to 203 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:05.159 hear that perspective. 204 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.559 Yeah, So I think the ophalmology analogy is the right 205 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:14.320 one with laseric and ophthalmologists will oversee perhaps half a 206 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.559 dozen or a dozen laser machines and to make sure 207 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:21.600 the machine is is the patient getting the right operation 208 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.879 in the correct eye, and is the is the machine 209 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.679 operating properly. But thereafter the you know, patils in the 210 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:33.960 laser chair and the robots going to basically laser rival. 211 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.200 And now this is much better than someone getting a 212 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.200 hand laser and laid hand lasering arrival, which would have 213 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.279 varying results. I think it will be something similar to LASIC, 214 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.240 where you perhaps a neurosurgeon overseeing half a dozen or 215 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:50.879 a dozen of the neuralink robots that are doing the 216 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:53.279 implants and just obviously making sure it's the right implant 217 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.720 and the right location for the right purpose, and that 218 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.519 everything's okay with the patient. So it would be like 219 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.159 a massive amplification, I think, and it's kind of necessary 220 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:06.039 that it'd be a massive appiplication because there's simply not 221 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:07.600 enough neurosarchence to do this whole by hand. 222 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:08.799 It's like physically impossible. 223 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:13.080 Yeah, because we're talking about ultimately doing tens of millions 224 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.000 of these things, like maybe this eight billion people in 225 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:16.600 the world. 226 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:18.120 I don't know, maybe at. 227 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.320 Least a few billion are going to want this, maybe 228 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.720 more so, then how do you get billions of devices 229 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:25.399 unless you got the robots. 230 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:26.279 It's not happening. 231 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.960 I've heard you frame the introduction of the robot is 232 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.759 not just a precision issue, but an interest of workforce 233 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.320 and scale. And there's obviously a little over three thousand 234 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:37.000 of us nationally, so that would be a little bit challenging. 235 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.559 Can you share a little bit in this early journey 236 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.919 with BCI what some of the challenges have been, what 237 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.360 you've encountered technically, I know, a biological environment, the saltwater 238 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:47.559 problem is very hostile. 239 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:49.279 Things with energy treaties. 240 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.360 Would love to hear your thoughts on that and how 241 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:53.840 your team's taking those things on. 242 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:59.960 Yeah, I mean, yeah, as everyone obviously talking to people 243 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.600 that know a lot more about the brain and that 244 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.639 than I do, but I accidentally come to understand more 245 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:09.840 than most people. The challenge is You've got a device 246 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:12.360 that's going to live there for years. It's an electrical 247 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:17.320 device that has to transmit radio essentially, you know, it 248 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:19.840 has to transmit photons to your computer. 249 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:23.200 It's subcutaneous, it's got to be charged. 250 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.559 It's got electrodes that are reading and writing, so it's 251 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:28.720 not like it can't just be electrically isolated. 252 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.240 In fact, you're fighting two things. You want. 253 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.200 You really are desperately trying to read these neurons, but 254 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.159 you also don't want to be corroded. So it's like 255 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.399 the very difficult thing to have just the minimum amount 256 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.320 of insulation necessary to not be corroded, but not be 257 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.279 so insulated that you can't hear the neurons. So there's 258 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:50.279 a very challenging materials problem with our latest electrodes that 259 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:53.559 will be silicon carbide coded, but even the silicon cartibide is. 260 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:54.799 A very difficult material to work with. 261 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:56.600 It's awesome, but it's very difficult, and you've got to 262 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:00.759 make sure the coding is extremely precise. It's be you know, 263 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.360 canvy tooth thin or tooth thick anywhere. It's going to 264 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:08.799 be very evenly you applied to the threads. So it's 265 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.720 the cher number of iterations necessary to actually have this 266 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.679 device be medically sealed and survived in the body and 267 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:21.879 not fail in some way, and then have to be 268 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.960 able to transmit to your phono computer at a high 269 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:29.080 data rate without burning down the battery is very difficult. 270 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:32.159 I'd say there's many many technical challenges in that. So 271 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.919 I mean I do have slightly criviolized by saying it's 272 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:37.799 sort of like a fitbit or an Apple Watch in 273 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.879 your brain. But if you actually put those things in 274 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.600 your brain, neither your brain nor the Apple watch or 275 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:43.600 fitbot would be happy. 276 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.600 So this feels like the right place to ask. I 277 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.519 think one of the more interesting questions we received. So 278 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.879 as someone who's in a position of authority to comment 279 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.639 on both, can you settle the age old question, what's 280 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.519 actually more difficult brain surgery or rocket science? 281 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.440 Well, both of my challenging. It's bizarre that I'm in 282 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.000 bold in both. I mean, I think there are similar 283 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:07.399 magnitude of difficulty. 284 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.120 Especially story the story checks out. 285 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.519 Yes, I think nobody's out there thinking, you know, what's 286 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.159 easy brain surgery and rockets. 287 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:17.519 Okay, perfect, Thanks, thanks for backing us up. We appreciate it. 288 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.120 Yeah, and unmercent, Now that's a legit. Rain surgery is 289 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.360 super hard, and rockets it's super hard. And there's a 290 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:25.639 reason that there are idiomatic expressions. This is no accident, 291 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.919 especially as you try to scale the electrodes number of electrodes, 292 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.200 and I don't we don't know how to say. 293 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:34.759 Like ultimately get to say, how do we do a 294 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:35.759 million electrodes? 295 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:37.559 This is we don't know how to do that yet 296 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:41.320 except that hopefully it is physically possible. If you want 297 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.559 to have a hind Man with a whole brain interface, 298 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:47.200 then I think probably the right automagtude is something like 299 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.120 a million electrode and that that still has a very 300 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.639 high ratio of neurons to electrodes, So that means you've 301 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.159 got to read you try to add like any given 302 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.960 electrode has to be able to read neurons from you 303 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.679 know several like I don't know one hundred or one 304 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.080 thousand neurons. So if you can do if you've got 305 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.240 a million electrodes and each electroid can read a thousand neurons, 306 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.120 so you've got access to a billion neurons. 307 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.759 Well, the goal with a whole brain interface is this 308 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.840 potential for long term augmentation or symbiosis. But you know, 309 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:24.120 in the more immediate term, something that we think a 310 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.159 lot about as surgeons is how is technology can allow 311 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.879 us to treat problems that we aren't able to treat 312 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:35.200 now and there's this whole family of diseases, psychiatric conditions, 313 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:40.000 neurodevelopmental conditions, you know, folks who are neurodiverse and nerd 314 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.440 degenerative conditions like Alzheimer's and so as we get a 315 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.399 better picture of not just the structure of the brain, 316 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.320 but you know, for lack of better term, the music 317 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:48.840 of the brain. 318 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.080 Do you see those as intermediate steps? Would love to 319 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:53.120 hear your perspective on it. 320 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:55.399 Yeah, I mean, I think we should be able to 321 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:59.120 solve any problem over time that is a result of 322 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.080 you know, like if you think of the brain like 323 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.879 a computer effect, like a circuit board or something like that, 324 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.519 you can say, like if you're given a circuit board 325 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.840 and there were some short circuits or some circuits that 326 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:13.159 should be there but aren't there. If there are any 327 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:17.799 circuits that shouldn't be there, and and some that that 328 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.559 are there but shouldn't, we can fix those. So basically, 329 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.159 if if if it's it's like fixing a circuit board. Now, now, 330 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.320 if the circuit board is all melted, it's going to 331 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.840 be hard to fix a melted circuit board. You can 332 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.879 fix the circ board with a few issues, but you 333 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.519 can't fix it if it's been melted. But the vast 334 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:39.279 majority of diseases or brain issues I think are fixable 335 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.240 with your within your rolling device. It's it's a it's 336 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:47.480 a fine grained means of reading and writing electrical signals 337 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.559 in the brain at a road with high precision. And 338 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.120 so that means like if there's an electrical storm, some 339 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.960 kind of apilepasy or something, you can interrupt that storm 340 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.120 if you can, if there are a set of signals 341 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.600 to like in the case of blindness, that if somebody's 342 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:05.839 lost their optic noble both eyes, you can still stimulate 343 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.359 the visual cortex. 344 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:10.960 Basically anything that is a function of signals in er out. 345 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:12.799 If that is the nature of the problem, it can 346 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:14.720 be fixed ultimately with a neuraling device. 347 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:15.720 Yeah, well I know you. 348 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.880 Neuralink just got FDA breakthrough designation for blindsight week and 349 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.759 a half before this meeting. One thing that I heard 350 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.119 you talk about that I thought was so interesting when 351 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.759 I think about neurodiversity or NeuroD degenerative disease, is this 352 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.640 idea of imagine, if someone of the intellective of Stephen 353 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.240 Hawking was able to communicate more efficiently, how much more 354 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.440 would society have benefited from those insights, and so when 355 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.960 I think of people with neurodiverse conditions, I always think 356 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.920 that they have this amazing potential to potentially be unlocked, 357 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:50.000 and maybe this implant could be a digital bridge to that. 358 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.559 Absolutely, so I think it can help a lot of people, 359 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.240 like really ultimately help tens millions of people, maybe one 360 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.960 hundreds of millions of people. I should say, also this potential, 361 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.319 we'll go beyond the brain to like if somebody's got 362 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.799 a sort of spinal cord injury, that being able to 363 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:07.440 transmit the signals, so. 364 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.559 You know, like the ideal. I think what most people 365 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:11.160 that have blusted the. 366 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.000 Connection between their brain and their body would like is 367 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.200 to reanimate their body. Sure you know there are there 368 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.680 are there are some approximations of that where you can 369 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.880 animate see a robot suit or a robot arm or 370 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.319 something like that. But if I think most people will 371 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.920 be asking them, like, what would you prefer, I'd like 372 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.799 my body to work again if provided the neurons are 373 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.640 still kind of there, It's it's simply physically possible to 374 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.319 shunt the signals, frown the motor cortex past the point 375 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.319 where the damage has occurred to the neurons that then 376 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.599 interface with your muscles and your. 377 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:41.279 Arms and legs. 378 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:43.960 If you think of it just like an electrical and 379 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.279 communication system, like if you severed some ethernet cables, what 380 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:48.680 would you do? 381 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:49.839 Well, you bridge the signal? 382 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.720 Okay, great, that the same thing can be done with 383 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:57.079 the human body is bridge the electrical signals and the 384 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.319 communication signals. So you've got sensors and actuators and the 385 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.839 signals the bi directional signals for sensors and actuators are 386 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.079 being interrupted, and I said, if you shunt the signals, 387 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.079 you will be able to renovate the body. 388 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.880 One other issue that comes up with implants that you 389 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.440 were mentioning our iPhones when you're committing someone to an implant, 390 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.440 obviously there's a whole issue around upgrades or the cycle 391 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.079 time or iteration and technology. So you can maybe say 392 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.119 a little bit about reversibility and how we should be 393 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.759 thinking about these things as we enter an era where 394 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:29.839 bci'll become more widespread. 395 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.880 Yeah, so we do think upgrades are pretty important, just 396 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:35.839 as you would not once an iPhone one stuck in 397 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.000 your head when there's an iPhone sixteen or whatever version 398 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.559 iPhone and are on these days but I think it's 399 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:41.720 like six it's pretty high. 400 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.039 I've lost track of what not for they're on I 401 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:45.759