WEBVTT

1
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Destiny.

2
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, this is Cliff,

3
00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:24.519
<v Speaker 2>your host of Destiny, and today we are talking about caregiving.

4
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.359
<v Speaker 2>And this is something that hits home for me because

5
00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:33.840
<v Speaker 2>my grandfather was very ill and he decided he wanted

6
00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>to stay home and die, and he had the family

7
00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:43.000
<v Speaker 2>around him and people took shifts watching him. He passed

8
00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:46.920
<v Speaker 2>away from cancer, but he did it in like a

9
00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.600
<v Speaker 2>three month period. It was very difficult, and as a caregiver,

10
00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:57.520
<v Speaker 2>we took turns watching him and changing him and feeding him.

11
00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.880
<v Speaker 2>And I this happened again when my younger brother got

12
00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:08.879
<v Speaker 2>very ill, and I saw it up close and personal

13
00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:12.079
<v Speaker 2>because my sister in law in the very beginning decided

14
00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.280
<v Speaker 2>that she was going to be his major caregiver and

15
00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:19.799
<v Speaker 2>she had no training whatsoever, and she refused to get

16
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:24.760
<v Speaker 2>support and she basically quit her job to care for him.

17
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:28.400
<v Speaker 2>And it didn't make any sense to me. And as

18
00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:31.840
<v Speaker 2>it turned out, she didn't really do very well. She

19
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:37.239
<v Speaker 2>was constantly stressed. It actually changed her personality and got

20
00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.799
<v Speaker 2>to the point where she was alienating the family. And

21
00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.159
<v Speaker 2>so caregiving is a very very big deal. And as

22
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:50.079
<v Speaker 2>we'll learned today, one in five households in the US

23
00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:55.640
<v Speaker 2>are dealing with caregiving, and it translates to about sixty

24
00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:00.400
<v Speaker 2>three million people. Our caregivers. These are people the air

25
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:06.120
<v Speaker 2>hospice care are somebody who's had a stroke or someone's

26
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:12.400
<v Speaker 2>very very ill and they are caretaking. Now, we chose

27
00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:17.360
<v Speaker 2>this program because this is something that isn't discussed very much,

28
00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:22.919
<v Speaker 2>which is the caregiver not necessarily the person who's ill.

29
00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:30.520
<v Speaker 2>It's more the stress and the strain of caregiving. And

30
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:32.680
<v Speaker 2>many of us just say, you know what, I love

31
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:36.360
<v Speaker 2>this person and I'm going to be their provider without

32
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:41.599
<v Speaker 2>really having any training, an understanding, or a support system.

33
00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.080
<v Speaker 2>And as I've just mentioned, this can be a serious

34
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:51.840
<v Speaker 2>life changing event because you're going by doctor's orders, you're

35
00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:56.080
<v Speaker 2>going by therapy, you're setting up appointments for this person.

36
00:02:56.159 --> 00:03:00.000
<v Speaker 2>If they're not bedridden, I mean, the sky's the limit,

37
00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:03.919
<v Speaker 2>and then more seriously, ill they are, especially if it's

38
00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.960
<v Speaker 2>a hospice situation. And this is what happened with my

39
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.080
<v Speaker 2>grandmother who had dementia. My grandfather, who was a physician,

40
00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.039
<v Speaker 2>tried to take care of her. So you can see

41
00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:22.560
<v Speaker 2>my one family has three examples. My grandmother, my grandfather,

42
00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:29.080
<v Speaker 2>and my brother who all were dealing with serious illnesses.

43
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.400
<v Speaker 2>In fact, you know, in some cases they were terminal.

44
00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:35.879
<v Speaker 2>And in my grandfather's case, he tried to take care

45
00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:43.879
<v Speaker 2>of my grandmother as she began losing her mind, and

46
00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:45.879
<v Speaker 2>it got to the point where he couldn't deal with

47
00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:48.439
<v Speaker 2>it anymore because she would go out and walk around

48
00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.479
<v Speaker 2>the yard. A couple of times he lost her because

49
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.159
<v Speaker 2>she took off and she was walking down the street.

50
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.319
<v Speaker 2>It's yeah, I mean, you can get a sense of

51
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.919
<v Speaker 2>just how important and it is to have training. He

52
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.639
<v Speaker 2>eventually had to place her in a nursing home, which

53
00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:10.439
<v Speaker 2>is you know, a skilled labor, skilled nursing facility where

54
00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:12.960
<v Speaker 2>she got the care she needed. And you know, he

55
00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:18.759
<v Speaker 2>was relieved of this you know situation, this constant care.

56
00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:24.720
<v Speaker 2>And I've had friends whose parents were failing. Again, I

57
00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.600
<v Speaker 2>mentioned my own brother who towards the end had to

58
00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.079
<v Speaker 2>have around the clock care. It's a full time job.

59
00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a full time job. So today we're going to

60
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:43.920
<v Speaker 2>learn about end of life care or care for somebody

61
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:48.800
<v Speaker 2>who is seriously ill, not well. But we're gonna look

62
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.800
<v Speaker 2>at it from a Buddhist zen Buddhist tradition, and I

63
00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:59.040
<v Speaker 2>think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what the outcomes are

64
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.240
<v Speaker 2>of the various case. Today is that we'll discuss today

65
00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:08.759
<v Speaker 2>and more importantly, how the caregiver can approach these life

66
00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:13.399
<v Speaker 2>changing situations with more understanding of what they're going through

67
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:18.160
<v Speaker 2>and how to make it more of a positive outcome.

68
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:22.879
<v Speaker 2>So today's program is Zen Caregiving, How to care for

69
00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:28.519
<v Speaker 2>yourself while caring for others, And my guest is Roy Reemer.

70
00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.600
<v Speaker 2>We have a new book we're featuring this week. It's

71
00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:07.680
<v Speaker 2>called Zen Caregiving, How to care for Yourself while caring

72
00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:12.040
<v Speaker 2>for Others. And what is a fascinating fact about this

73
00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:16.040
<v Speaker 2>new book is that the author has not only tagged

74
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:21.319
<v Speaker 2>a statistic that is mind blowing, he is also opening

75
00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:24.680
<v Speaker 2>the door for an understanding in the what we don't

76
00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.639
<v Speaker 2>want to call it dying process, but the transition. I'm

77
00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.000
<v Speaker 2>going to use the word transition process of a friend

78
00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:36.600
<v Speaker 2>of a relative and what that means. One in five,

79
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.399
<v Speaker 2>According to this research, one in five households has a

80
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:46.399
<v Speaker 2>caregiver associated with a person. And this calculates the sixty

81
00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:51.040
<v Speaker 2>five million individuals. My guest today is Roy Reemer. He

82
00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.920
<v Speaker 2>is an educator, end of life caregiver. He is the

83
00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.160
<v Speaker 2>executive director of the Zen Caregiving Project in San Francisco,

84
00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.399
<v Speaker 2>and I'm really happy to have them, not only because

85
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.279
<v Speaker 2>we haven't talked enough about transition in our culture. It's

86
00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:10.160
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of a dark subject for a lot of people,

87
00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.800
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's extremely important and this new book,

88
00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.639
<v Speaker 2>Zen Caregiving is a focus not only in that process,

89
00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:23.519
<v Speaker 2>but also what it means to incorporate Zen, the Zen

90
00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.920
<v Speaker 2>mindfulness aspect. So Roy, welcome to Destiny. Thank you for

91
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.839
<v Speaker 2>having on the program.

92
00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:31.279
<v Speaker 3>It's great to be here. I really appreciate it.

93
00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.879
<v Speaker 2>Uh, what was the impetus to write a book like this?

94
00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:40.439
<v Speaker 2>It's not a I can see you as a caregiver

95
00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:45.120
<v Speaker 2>and all the transitions and things that you've seen in

96
00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.839
<v Speaker 2>your life and your experience, but you're presenting much more

97
00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.600
<v Speaker 2>than just the caregiving in this You're presenting a Zen aspect.

98
00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.680
<v Speaker 2>What does that mean as a caregiver who understands the

99
00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Zen process.

100
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.240
<v Speaker 3>Sure, well, it's probably helpful to share with the audience

101
00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:09.560
<v Speaker 3>that you know, we at Zen Caregiving Project, the organization

102
00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:14.480
<v Speaker 3>I were on, we have developed a curriculum of training

103
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:21.480
<v Speaker 3>for family caregivers clinical caregivers that are rooted in Zen

104
00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:27.519
<v Speaker 3>practice and mindfulness. Approaches and that's really our sweet spot.

105
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:32.480
<v Speaker 3>So there are some wonderful organizations out there that support

106
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.879
<v Speaker 3>people around learning how to do some of the more

107
00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:43.000
<v Speaker 3>practical activities of caregiving. You know, how to transfer someone

108
00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.799
<v Speaker 3>from a wheelchair to a bed, how to clean someone up,

109
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:52.080
<v Speaker 3>how to administer medications, change a wound dressing. But for us,

110
00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:56.720
<v Speaker 3>our sweet spot where we focus is on the emotional

111
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:03.840
<v Speaker 3>resilience of caregivers, offering approaches and ways to build emotional

112
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.840
<v Speaker 3>resilience and so this is really relevant and it's often

113
00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:14.759
<v Speaker 3>overlooked among caregivers. For family caregivers, you know, you mentioned

114
00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:17.320
<v Speaker 3>the statistic one in five. I think it's up to

115
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:22.639
<v Speaker 3>about sixty five million caregivers in the US. So if

116
00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:26.679
<v Speaker 3>we haven't been a caregiver, we can pretty much count

117
00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.039
<v Speaker 3>on being in the role at supporting a friend, a

118
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:34.600
<v Speaker 3>family member, a loved one when they need support around

119
00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:39.159
<v Speaker 3>it dealing with an illness, So this becomes really relevant.

120
00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.799
<v Speaker 3>Often we're thrown into the role completely unprepared, and in

121
00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.080
<v Speaker 3>the early days it may be kind of a light lift,

122
00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:53.120
<v Speaker 3>but then as illness progresses, especially in cases of dementia,

123
00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:57.960
<v Speaker 3>the burden becomes quite heavy and it can take a

124
00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:03.440
<v Speaker 3>real emotional toll, not to mention physical toll on the caregiver.

125
00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:09.960
<v Speaker 3>So Zen Caregiving Project began as Zen Hospice Project back

126
00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:13.879
<v Speaker 3>in the mid to late eighties. It was a project

127
00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.200
<v Speaker 3>within the San Francisco Zen Center, and so our roots

128
00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:21.480
<v Speaker 3>are very much in the Zen tradition, the Soto Zen tradition,

129
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:25.559
<v Speaker 3>to be precise, And what we found early on was

130
00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:30.399
<v Speaker 3>that these approaches are really really useful, really supportive in

131
00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:35.159
<v Speaker 3>showing up fully for someone who's not just living with

132
00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:40.519
<v Speaker 3>terminal illness, but living with long term chronicle illness. And

133
00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:47.639
<v Speaker 3>so Zen, the literal translation of Zen coming from Chan

134
00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:53.559
<v Speaker 3>in the Chinese tradition is meditation. So Zen is really

135
00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.840
<v Speaker 3>about the direct experience of the present moment. And as

136
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:03.799
<v Speaker 3>a caregiver, there's a lot of emotional chaos in the

137
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:08.720
<v Speaker 3>experience of living with an illness. So when a caregiver

138
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:14.000
<v Speaker 3>has the ability to drop into present moment awareness and

139
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.639
<v Speaker 3>quiet the mind chatter what I call the thinking mind,

140
00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:23.799
<v Speaker 3>where we can begin to ruminate or get obsessed with

141
00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:28.240
<v Speaker 3>what may happen next, you know, all that's a distraction.

142
00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.799
<v Speaker 3>When we can drop into present moment awareness, we're really

143
00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.080
<v Speaker 3>much more available to the person we're caring for and

144
00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.799
<v Speaker 3>we offer we deliver better care.

145
00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:45.519
<v Speaker 2>So when you are phrasing the subtitle how to care

146
00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:49.759
<v Speaker 2>for Yourself, talk about that because I think people don't

147
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:54.039
<v Speaker 2>understand that there's a stress level involved in being a

148
00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:59.799
<v Speaker 2>caregiver maintaining the comfort of the person you're working with

149
00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.559
<v Speaker 2>caring for. But I think the idea that you're trying

150
00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.000
<v Speaker 2>to present is that you need to take care of

151
00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:08.120
<v Speaker 2>yourself as well.

152
00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:09.039
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

153
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:10.919
<v Speaker 2>Can you frame that a little bit for us?

154
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.200
<v Speaker 3>Sure? Well, first I'll say, you know, we're really trying

155
00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:21.799
<v Speaker 3>to introduce these approaches and this framework to people as

156
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.440
<v Speaker 3>early as possible and their caregiving experience, even before they're

157
00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.399
<v Speaker 3>in the role of caregiver. So in that sense, I

158
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:37.879
<v Speaker 3>view these approaches the book itself is an insurance policy

159
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:43.559
<v Speaker 3>of sorts. If a caregiver waits until they're beginning to

160
00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:50.120
<v Speaker 3>show signs of burnout, it's really too late. So we

161
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.360
<v Speaker 3>want to teach these approaches as early as possible. And

162
00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:57.480
<v Speaker 3>these are really well, I consider them to be life skills,

163
00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:04.399
<v Speaker 3>not just caregiving skills. So we talk about the reciprocity

164
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:12.080
<v Speaker 3>of care. We are delivering care to someone, but we're

165
00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.840
<v Speaker 3>getting a lot out of the relationship ourself and so

166
00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:21.360
<v Speaker 3>we're in this together in a kind of absolute sense.

167
00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:27.879
<v Speaker 3>You know, we talk about no separation between ourself and others, right,

168
00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.759
<v Speaker 3>So just to make the point that we're really in

169
00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:38.799
<v Speaker 3>this together. So if I'm overwhelmed and stressed, You're going

170
00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.600
<v Speaker 3>to pick up on my overwhelm and stress. And we

171
00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.360
<v Speaker 3>talk I talk about this in the book. You know,

172
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.039
<v Speaker 3>we as humans, we have these mirror neurons in the brain.

173
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.840
<v Speaker 3>We're constantly responding to each other. And we've all noticed

174
00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:56.480
<v Speaker 3>this when we're with someone who's very upregulated, who's agitated.

175
00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.000
<v Speaker 3>If we're not paying attention to our own body, our

176
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:04.919
<v Speaker 3>own mind, we begin to get a bit upregulated and agitated. Well,

177
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:10.279
<v Speaker 3>the opposite is true as well. If I'm calm and grounded,

178
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.639
<v Speaker 3>I can have a calming and grounding influence on others.

179
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:21.039
<v Speaker 3>And there are other benefits of integrating mindfulness into caregiving,

180
00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.759
<v Speaker 3>which I'm happy to speak to. But you know, it's

181
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:30.720
<v Speaker 3>this idea that if I can maintain my own steadiness,

182
00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:34.200
<v Speaker 3>my own equanimity, and the care relationship, it's going to

183
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.399
<v Speaker 3>be beneficial for the person I'm caring for.

184
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.879
<v Speaker 2>That's something that I really like. The person who is

185
00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.639
<v Speaker 2>being cared for is going to pick up because they're

186
00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:50.000
<v Speaker 2>becoming sensitized to this caregiver. And if you're expressing and

187
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:55.240
<v Speaker 2>showing burnout, that's going to transition right into their feeling.

188
00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.279
<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe I should not cry so much, Maybe

189
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I should so the sky's a limit on emotions on

190
00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:02.279
<v Speaker 2>that one.

191
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:07.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, it's so true. You know, it's impossible for

192
00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.279
<v Speaker 3>me to forget about you know, my father's experience caring

193
00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.279
<v Speaker 3>for my mother toward the end of her life. He

194
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:19.720
<v Speaker 3>was her sole caregiver. This is very common. He experienced

195
00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:24.360
<v Speaker 3>a lot of social isolation. And what we discovered after

196
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.679
<v Speaker 3>my mother died was that he was living with a

197
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.399
<v Speaker 3>systemic infection in his body. And this is just an

198
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:39.960
<v Speaker 3>example of how caregivers they They repress what's happening in

199
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.799
<v Speaker 3>their body, in their hearts and minds, for the sake

200
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.639
<v Speaker 3>of continuing to be able to show up to deliver

201
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:53.039
<v Speaker 3>care well for my dad. Fortunately, he survived until after

202
00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:57.159
<v Speaker 3>my mother died and then he went into the hospital

203
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:02.039
<v Speaker 3>and he healed from that. But if a caregiver goes down,

204
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:07.159
<v Speaker 3>so to speak, because they're just emotionally overwhelmed or so

205
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.679
<v Speaker 3>physically exhausted, they cannot go on any longer. That's obviously

206
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:13.600
<v Speaker 3>not good for the caregiver. It's not good for the

207
00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.200
<v Speaker 3>person who's receiving their care. It creates a new level

208
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:23.080
<v Speaker 3>of crisis in the relationship. So these techniques that are

209
00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.840
<v Speaker 3>introduced in the book are designed to help the caregiver

210
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:33.320
<v Speaker 3>maintain their emotional wellbeing so that they can stay in

211
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.679
<v Speaker 3>the role for the long run, for as long as

212
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.279
<v Speaker 3>they need to be in the role.

213
00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:47.399
<v Speaker 2>What do you think caregivers get fundamentally wrong about working

214
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.440
<v Speaker 2>with somebody who is in need.

215
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:54.039
<v Speaker 3>Well, one thing I think they often get wrong is

216
00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.919
<v Speaker 3>that it's a one way street. In other words, they're

217
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:04.119
<v Speaker 3>really there just to support the person who they're caring for,

218
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:09.319
<v Speaker 3>without consideration to their own needs. So this operates on

219
00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:13.880
<v Speaker 3>a number of different levels. And you know, I want

220
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:21.680
<v Speaker 3>to be really careful here because excuse me, caregivers often

221
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:24.079
<v Speaker 3>hear from others, well, you need to take better care

222
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:29.000
<v Speaker 3>of yourself. And I describe this as kind of weaponizing

223
00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:33.400
<v Speaker 3>It's a bit little dramatic, but weaponizing self care for

224
00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:39.359
<v Speaker 3>professional caregivers are paid caregivers working within a health system

225
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:44.799
<v Speaker 3>where case loads are really really high. The burden is enormous.

226
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:51.279
<v Speaker 3>It can be insulting to have someone in administration say,

227
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, you need to take better care of yourself

228
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.720
<v Speaker 3>when the system that these people are working within is

229
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:04.359
<v Speaker 3>just over burden and it's unhealthy. I think of the

230
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.039
<v Speaker 3>practices that are introduced in the book as moment to

231
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:15.279
<v Speaker 3>moment self care. We're not talking about getting away to

232
00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:20.319
<v Speaker 3>the spa or you know, even finding the time to

233
00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:24.200
<v Speaker 3>take yourself out for a wonderful dinner. Those things are wonderful,

234
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.720
<v Speaker 3>But the practices that are being introduced in the book

235
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:34.240
<v Speaker 3>are practices that we can apply in all the activities

236
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:38.839
<v Speaker 3>that we're already engaged in in our life. You know.

237
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:44.039
<v Speaker 3>I make the point in the book that if one

238
00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.880
<v Speaker 3>were to go out and buy themselves a meditation cushion,

239
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:52.720
<v Speaker 3>a zafu, or you know, buy a bell and find

240
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:54.880
<v Speaker 3>a place in their home where they can set up

241
00:18:54.920 --> 00:19:00.160
<v Speaker 3>a quiet, beautiful spot and meditate for thirty minutes every day,

242
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.279
<v Speaker 3>that would be wonderful. They would probably begin to see

243
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:09.440
<v Speaker 3>the most progress. However, we can use all the activities

244
00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:13.759
<v Speaker 3>we already engage in, whether it's washing the dishes, folding

245
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:18.319
<v Speaker 3>the laundry, you know, sitting with someone and assisting with

246
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.319
<v Speaker 3>their feeding. We can use all those sorts of activities

247
00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:31.000
<v Speaker 3>to cultivate and deepen mindful awareness. And I'm really quite

248
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:35.440
<v Speaker 3>inspired by, you know, Dogan Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen,

249
00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:41.279
<v Speaker 3>because he figured out that it was necessary to take

250
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:48.160
<v Speaker 3>these practices that were perhaps you know, limited to a

251
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:54.559
<v Speaker 3>priestly class and show commoners how to integrate these teachings

252
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.400
<v Speaker 3>and practices into their own life. And so that's really

253
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:01.920
<v Speaker 3>what I'm trying to do, trying trying to find a

254
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:06.559
<v Speaker 3>way to show people how these practices that come out

255
00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:11.039
<v Speaker 3>of this rich spiritual tradition can be integrated into one's

256
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.720
<v Speaker 3>own life, whether or not we have any interest whatsoever

257
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.640
<v Speaker 3>in formalson practice.

258
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:23.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you described caregiving as a spiritual practice, and I'm

259
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:27.759
<v Speaker 2>curious you were just mentioning a few examples. But I

260
00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.519
<v Speaker 2>as a consider myself a spiritual person as well. If

261
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't meditate once a day, at least once a day,

262
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm in big trouble because I don't have the background,

263
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:44.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't have the support that my practice provides. What

264
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.000
<v Speaker 2>are some of the other examples of a spiritual practice

265
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.039
<v Speaker 2>that you consider within caregiving?

266
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:58.839
<v Speaker 3>I love this question. Well, I think it's really important

267
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:08.359
<v Speaker 3>for caregivers to find opportunities to expand their awareness, because

268
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:14.000
<v Speaker 3>it's really quite easy for a caregiver to become very

269
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:18.759
<v Speaker 3>contracted in their thinking or in their focus in a

270
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:23.799
<v Speaker 3>beautiful way, they're narrowly focused on the well being of

271
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:27.519
<v Speaker 3>the person they're caring for, or when they're stressed out.

272
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:34.119
<v Speaker 3>As all of us know, our thinking becomes very narrowly focused.

273
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:40.119
<v Speaker 3>We become very contracted in our thinking in our mindset.

274
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.359
<v Speaker 3>So to open up into something bigger than ourselves can

275
00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.440
<v Speaker 3>be really quite supportive. And I want to acknowledge that

276
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.079
<v Speaker 3>a lot of caregivers do this naturally because of the

277
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:58.920
<v Speaker 3>religious tradition that they may be practicing within. The other

278
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:00.920
<v Speaker 3>thing that I think is important and to share is

279
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:10.279
<v Speaker 3>caregiving is a transformative experience like illness. Caring for someone

280
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.720
<v Speaker 3>who's dealing with an illness changes us, whether we want

281
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.680
<v Speaker 3>it to change us or not. So I use the

282
00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:23.359
<v Speaker 3>lens of initiation or rights of passage. I view caregiving

283
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:29.359
<v Speaker 3>as a rights of passage. And so the suffering that

284
00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.039
<v Speaker 3>may be part of the caregiving experience is really the

285
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:39.480
<v Speaker 3>chrystalis of change and growth and transformation that this human

286
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.720
<v Speaker 3>being who's in the role of caregiver is going to

287
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.200
<v Speaker 3>go through whether they want that kind of change in

288
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.799
<v Speaker 3>transformation or not, whether they're aware of it or not.

289
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:57.240
<v Speaker 3>So as we know about rights of passage, the threshold experience,

290
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:04.400
<v Speaker 3>the experience of intense challenge and difficulty brings with it gifts,

291
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:11.759
<v Speaker 3>gifts of wisdom and realization. And so I've seen so

292
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.160
<v Speaker 3>many caregivers come to us to take our classes where

293
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.440
<v Speaker 3>they're really frightened. They don't think they're going to come

294
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.920
<v Speaker 3>through this experience, they don't think they're going to survive it.

295
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.440
<v Speaker 3>But what I love seeing is this glimmer of hope

296
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:31.920
<v Speaker 3>that they will not only survive, but they'll thrive in

297
00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:38.160
<v Speaker 3>the experience. And when the experience ends, as everything ends,

298
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.200
<v Speaker 3>they're going to have these gifts that they can then

299
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.519
<v Speaker 3>share with others around them, and their family and their

300
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.759
<v Speaker 3>community who someday will be in the role of caregiver.

301
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.319
<v Speaker 3>So I think this really shifts things into a more

302
00:23:52.720 --> 00:24:00.640
<v Speaker 3>spiritual context where we recognize that there's real growth potential

303
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:06.480
<v Speaker 3>here and that can give us hope, and that can

304
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.400
<v Speaker 3>give a real sense of purpose and meaning when we

305
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:15.680
<v Speaker 3>feel like we're just at the end of our rope,

306
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:21.960
<v Speaker 3>then you know, there's the compassion piece, right, So I

307
00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:25.920
<v Speaker 3>like to remind people you would not be showing up

308
00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.720
<v Speaker 3>to offer care to a loved one if you weren't

309
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:33.359
<v Speaker 3>a compassionate being. And a lot of caregivers are quick

310
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:35.240
<v Speaker 3>to say, well, I didn't have any choice in this.

311
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:39.599
<v Speaker 3>I was thrown into this, And I remind them, you know,

312
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.240
<v Speaker 3>you do hear these stories of you know, a spouse

313
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:48.799
<v Speaker 3>learning that their partner has this illness and they say,

314
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.960
<v Speaker 3>this is not for me, you know, and they kind

315
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.640
<v Speaker 3>of check out. But caregivers are really showing up because

316
00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:02.720
<v Speaker 3>they're compassionate beings. But as humans, our heart opens and

317
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.680
<v Speaker 3>our heart closes. It's just very natural, and when we're

318
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.359
<v Speaker 3>stressed out, it's easy for the heart to begin to

319
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.759
<v Speaker 3>shut down. So I have this whole section on compassion

320
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:19.640
<v Speaker 3>where we break down the process of compassion, and we're

321
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 3>reminding people of what's actually happening when we experience it,

322
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:27.799
<v Speaker 3>both towards others and towards our self, and how to

323
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:35.200
<v Speaker 3>feed compassion. And as we feed compassion, we open up

324
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:39.799
<v Speaker 3>to our connection, our inherent connection to not just the

325
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.839
<v Speaker 3>person we're caring for, but to all beings, and we

326
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:49.079
<v Speaker 3>begin to recognize that this sense of self isn't limited

327
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.839
<v Speaker 3>to the one who's in this body. You know who's

328
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:55.079
<v Speaker 3>in this mind, but everything around us.

329
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.400
<v Speaker 2>We're going to take a short commercial break to allow

330
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 2>our sponsor to identify themselves, and we will return shortly

331
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:07.400
<v Speaker 2>with my guests today, Roy Reimer discussing his new book

332
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Zen Caregiving, How to care for yourself while caring for others,

333
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:56.960
<v Speaker 2>will be right back. Hey. Factor is a sponsor of

334
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.440
<v Speaker 2>our show this week, and I gotta tell you what

335
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.880
<v Speaker 2>a great company they are, the pre made specialists. Their

336
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.680
<v Speaker 2>dinners are just superb. I think I've mentioned many times

337
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't have time to cook. I just don't have time.

338
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:14.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm a bachelor, I work long hours, I'm editing, I'm interviewing. Oh,

339
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.119
<v Speaker 2>it just takes the whole day. Their meals are excellent.

340
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.480
<v Speaker 2>And if you're on a special Keto diet or a

341
00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:26.279
<v Speaker 2>GLP one support or you're looking for special strength workout diet,

342
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 2>you got to have their food. They got over one

343
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:34.599
<v Speaker 2>hundred rotating meals that you can choose from. They taste great,

344
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.680
<v Speaker 2>and they use the best ingredients you can imagine. It

345
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.880
<v Speaker 2>is excellent. The food. I just can't say enough about it.

346
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.440
<v Speaker 2>And this week they got a program go to Factor

347
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Meals Dot com slash Earth Ancients fifty off and use

348
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:54.200
<v Speaker 2>code Earth Ancients fifty off to get fifty percent off

349
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.960
<v Speaker 2>and free daily greens per box. This is a new

350
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.559
<v Speaker 2>subscription program only and at last until September of the

351
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.359
<v Speaker 2>twenty seventh. But I got to tell you, if you

352
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:06.799
<v Speaker 2>are looking for great pre made foods and there's a

353
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.279
<v Speaker 2>lot of choices out there, Factor has been around. They've

354
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:12.039
<v Speaker 2>been doing it for a while and their food is

355
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:18.039
<v Speaker 2>excellent again. Factormeals dot com slash Earth Ancients fifty percent

356
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:24.039
<v Speaker 2>off and use code Earth Ancients fifty off. My guest

357
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.480
<v Speaker 2>today is author Roy Reemore, who has written a new

358
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.279
<v Speaker 2>book called Zen Caregiving, How to care for yourself while

359
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:35.079
<v Speaker 2>caring for others, and reports are that over sixty three

360
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:39.960
<v Speaker 2>million people are dealing with some kind of care giving lifestyle.

361
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:49.400
<v Speaker 2>I have been present with my grandfather's passing. He wanted

362
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.880
<v Speaker 2>to pass at home, and we had different family members

363
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.079
<v Speaker 2>around somewhere in medicals, a couple of doctors in the

364
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:02.960
<v Speaker 2>family who approach it much differently than somebody who is

365
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:11.440
<v Speaker 2>totally oblivious to the dying process. And I'm curious about

366
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.599
<v Speaker 2>the Zen approach to hospice because this is something that

367
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:20.119
<v Speaker 2>you've been doing, and I'm curious how you approach it

368
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and how you teach the process of transitioning. I'd be

369
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>curious to hear, you know, the technique because I can't say.

370
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I was with my grandfather, but I don't

371
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.319
<v Speaker 2>know if it's something that I would sign up for,

372
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, hospice volunteer or something just because of my personality.

373
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.839
<v Speaker 2>It's like I can save you, I can give you

374
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:46.079
<v Speaker 2>the remedy, you know, and it's something that you need

375
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.839
<v Speaker 2>to open to and understand. This is the person's time

376
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.759
<v Speaker 2>to go, or perhaps they're in a very bad health

377
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>condition that doesn't look good. Maybe if they survive fantastically,

378
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:03.559
<v Speaker 2>but what's the mindset at each well?

379
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.839
<v Speaker 3>I would say the first thing is just the recognition

380
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.519
<v Speaker 3>of the impermanence of everything. And so this is where

381
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:17.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, the meditation practice becomes so helpful. You know,

382
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:22.319
<v Speaker 3>on the in breath, we notice what's here. On the outbreath,

383
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.119
<v Speaker 3>we see what's falling away, or on the in breath,

384
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.599
<v Speaker 3>we notice what's arising. On the outbreath, we see what

385
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.000
<v Speaker 3>is falling away. So we begin to see that with

386
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.640
<v Speaker 3>every breath and every moment, something is falling away. As

387
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:43.000
<v Speaker 3>something new or rises, this is the nature of reality.

388
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:51.599
<v Speaker 3>This is the nature of things. So to live that knowledge,

389
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.079
<v Speaker 3>to recognize that this is just the way it is,

390
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 3>it kind of normalizes the fact, depersonalizes the reality of death,

391
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:10.240
<v Speaker 3>the end of this human life. Now you know that's

392
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.599
<v Speaker 3>the absolute truth in relative circumstances, especially with a family member,

393
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:17.960
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't do as a whole lot of good necessarily.

394
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.599
<v Speaker 3>Maybe it does after years of practice. But the reason,

395
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:27.240
<v Speaker 3>you know, our volunteer program is so wonderful and so

396
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:33.359
<v Speaker 3>supportive and beautiful is that when we're experiencing a loved

397
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:42.079
<v Speaker 3>one's death, there is just so much emotional entanglement that

398
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 3>really obscures what's actually happening in this moment. Whereas when

399
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 3>you're a volunteer and maybe you've known someone for a

400
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:58.039
<v Speaker 3>few weeks or even just a couple of days, you

401
00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:02.599
<v Speaker 3>can sit at the outside of someone who's dying and

402
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:09.039
<v Speaker 3>become this very clear, open hearted presence that invites them

403
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:13.960
<v Speaker 3>into this space that is all about this present moment

404
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:21.440
<v Speaker 3>where we're not bound by all the joys and successes

405
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:25.799
<v Speaker 3>of life, or all of our mistakes and foibles that

406
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:30.240
<v Speaker 3>we've experienced in this lifetime. It's about what is here

407
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 3>in this moment. And you know it sounds very beautiful,

408
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:41.400
<v Speaker 3>but not always. But you actually see this when someone

409
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:47.640
<v Speaker 3>can surrender to the present moment in those week, days,

410
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:52.240
<v Speaker 3>hours leading up to their death. You know, we at

411
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:55.000
<v Speaker 3>zen Hospice Project at the time, we used to have

412
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:59.359
<v Speaker 3>this beautiful six bed residential care facility and people would

413
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:03.119
<v Speaker 3>sometimes say, ah, that's that place where people go to die,

414
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.079
<v Speaker 3>and I would say, well, actually, this is where they

415
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:12.759
<v Speaker 3>go to live as fully as possible until that last breath.

416
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:17.920
<v Speaker 3>And you see this. Yes, people are most of the

417
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:21.599
<v Speaker 3>time aware that the end is coming soon, but they're

418
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.599
<v Speaker 3>really just trying to squeeze out of life every precious

419
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:31.200
<v Speaker 3>moment and so it really can put people in a

420
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:35.559
<v Speaker 3>place where they recognize the preciousness of each passing moment

421
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:41.359
<v Speaker 3>and that's where they want to dwell. So as a caregiver,

422
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, there are certain things we can do to

423
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 3>help the person we're caring for prepare themselves for the

424
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.599
<v Speaker 3>very end of life. And you know, one example that

425
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:57.400
<v Speaker 3>comes to mind that I cover in the book is

426
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:04.039
<v Speaker 3>the life review process. So this is a necessity that

427
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:09.079
<v Speaker 3>we as humans have to reflect upon the life we've lived.

428
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 3>The relationships that we've had in this lifetime, and to

429
00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:19.039
<v Speaker 3>steep in the wonder and in the pain of what

430
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.360
<v Speaker 3>we've experienced in this life, so that we can kind

431
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.840
<v Speaker 3>of set that story aside, so we're not, as I

432
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:31.480
<v Speaker 3>was saying before, bound by or anchored to what has

433
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.519
<v Speaker 3>already passed. We can better surrender to whatever comes next,

434
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.800
<v Speaker 3>to the great mystery, if you will. And as a caregiver,

435
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.599
<v Speaker 3>you can serve a really important role by eliciting stories

436
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.000
<v Speaker 3>from the person you're caring for. And you know, some

437
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 3>people are going to be receptive to that kind of

438
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.079
<v Speaker 3>storytelling and others aren't going to be interested, and you

439
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:57.360
<v Speaker 3>have to honor what they're interested in or capable of

440
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:01.840
<v Speaker 3>sharing with you. But just to to present to them

441
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:06.960
<v Speaker 3>this clear, open container for them to pour their stories into,

442
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.719
<v Speaker 3>so to speak, is a really really useful endeavor going

443
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:16.320
<v Speaker 3>in with no agenda. You know, this is really important

444
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:20.559
<v Speaker 3>piece too, because this idea of a good death, this

445
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:24.519
<v Speaker 3>is so subjective. You know, there's been so much talk

446
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 3>in recent years about, you know, helping people have a

447
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.719
<v Speaker 3>good death. Well that's really up to the person who's

448
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.239
<v Speaker 3>experiencing the death to decide for themselves. What is a

449
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:34.719
<v Speaker 3>good death.

450
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 2>But isn't the role. I shouldn't say isn't a role

451
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 2>because you're telling me right now, and it's obvious everyone's different,

452
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:44.320
<v Speaker 2>so every death is going to be different. But is

453
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.320
<v Speaker 2>it your role to make the transition as smooth as

454
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.079
<v Speaker 2>possible or do you just are you there as a

455
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.480
<v Speaker 2>witness whatever happens happens.

456
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:58.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, you're right. It's not the role of the

457
00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:07.840
<v Speaker 3>caregiver to fix or to ensure the best possible death.

458
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 3>And again, this is challenging for family caregivers because of

459
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:18.079
<v Speaker 3>the relationship and the emotional entanglement. But you know, the

460
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:21.199
<v Speaker 3>hardest thing, and this really came up for me around

461
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.280
<v Speaker 3>my mother's death. It's so hard with a family member

462
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:30.239
<v Speaker 3>to say I can't fix this. I cannot fix this.

463
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.280
<v Speaker 3>So you know, by the time someone reaches their death

464
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 3>and hopefully at the end of a long, rich life,

465
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 3>you know there have been so many causes and conditions

466
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 3>that have led them to this moment that there's this

467
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 3>idea of compassionate detachment. Right, I'm not responsible for the

468
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.840
<v Speaker 3>causes and conditions that have led up to this moment.

469
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:58.639
<v Speaker 3>As a family member, maybe you do have some responsibility

470
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.360
<v Speaker 3>and to what has happen and leading up to this moment,

471
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.400
<v Speaker 3>because relationships are complex, but I think it's a real

472
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:12.760
<v Speaker 3>gift actually to step away and acknowledge this is the

473
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.360
<v Speaker 3>death that this person is getting and I cannot fix this.

474
00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:22.360
<v Speaker 3>I cannot change this. You know, there's I think a

475
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.079
<v Speaker 3>lot of freedom in that. And one of the reasons

476
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:29.199
<v Speaker 3>why this is so important is if we're too locked

477
00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:33.840
<v Speaker 3>into a fix it mindset, then the person we're sitting

478
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:38.960
<v Speaker 3>with becomes kind of an object to fix or change,

479
00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:42.400
<v Speaker 3>and that gets in the way of deep human connection.

480
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:47.440
<v Speaker 3>And one of the beautiful things about maintaining mindful awareness

481
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:52.320
<v Speaker 3>and a caregiver relationship is that it addresses or satisfies

482
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.119
<v Speaker 3>this core human need. Personally, I feel it's the greatest

483
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 3>need of someone dealing with an illness, certainly terminal illness,

484
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:07.800
<v Speaker 3>is to feel the sense of connection to someone else,

485
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.079
<v Speaker 3>to feel really witnessed, to be to feel really seen.

486
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.880
<v Speaker 3>And if I'm too focused on fixing a problem, they're

487
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:19.360
<v Speaker 3>not going to have that experience, you know, Yeah, to.

488
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.159
<v Speaker 2>Become an object rather than a right. You know, I'm

489
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>listening to you, and I'm thinking of the classic transitional

490
00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.480
<v Speaker 2>people like Elizabeth Kobola Ross and Levine and some of

491
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:34.760
<v Speaker 2>these other people who have written extensively and provided the

492
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.320
<v Speaker 2>foundation for a lot of the work on death and dying.

493
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Where have we moved beyond that? Where do you think

494
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:49.079
<v Speaker 2>we have stepped to another level from those foundational theories.

495
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:55.679
<v Speaker 3>Well, deep gratitude to all these teachers, you know, because

496
00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.840
<v Speaker 3>they really were at the forefront of something. And I

497
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:06.079
<v Speaker 3>would say, what these individuals who work so closely in

498
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:08.679
<v Speaker 3>this area, work with so many people who were at

499
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:12.239
<v Speaker 3>the very end of their life. You know, what they

500
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.599
<v Speaker 3>learned about the experience and what they shared with others

501
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 3>remains true to the experience. What I would say is,

502
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:30.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, these days, so many teachers have emerged. You know,

503
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:32.800
<v Speaker 3>there are so many people out there who have done

504
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:40.039
<v Speaker 3>trainings as death duelos, and people who have physicians and

505
00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:45.320
<v Speaker 3>otherwise who have used their experience of being people being

506
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:48.599
<v Speaker 3>with people at the end of life who are now

507
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:53.599
<v Speaker 3>beginning to offer to others what they have learned. So

508
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:03.480
<v Speaker 3>one area that has really changed was recognizing and addressing

509
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.119
<v Speaker 3>the multicultural diversity in the end of life experience, because

510
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.159
<v Speaker 3>the way people die can be very much determined by

511
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:22.880
<v Speaker 3>the culture in which they've lived, and unfortunately, you know,

512
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 3>there are still some real disparities in the kind of

513
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:31.440
<v Speaker 3>care that people receive depending on you know, what color

514
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.840
<v Speaker 3>their skin is, or you know, how much annual income

515
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.719
<v Speaker 3>they or their family makes. Right, So this is starting

516
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.440
<v Speaker 3>to be really acknowledged and in dressed and addressed by

517
00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:50.480
<v Speaker 3>different teachers. And this I think is really really beautiful, amazing.

518
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:57.960
<v Speaker 2>You use the phrase bearing witness, and I'm curious to know,

519
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:02.840
<v Speaker 2>why is this more powerful than just trying to fix

520
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:03.760
<v Speaker 2>someone suffering.

521
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Well, it kind of goes back to what I was sharing.

522
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:16.960
<v Speaker 3>I would say, bearing witness is free from any biases

523
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:21.880
<v Speaker 3>or preconceived notions of who this person is, who I'm

524
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:26.079
<v Speaker 3>caring for, or what this experience should look like for

525
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 3>this person. I don't know that it's possible to truly

526
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:39.440
<v Speaker 3>bear witness without being in the present moment, without being

527
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:45.119
<v Speaker 3>able to drop into direct experience of what's happening right here,

528
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 3>right now. So that's an essential component, that kind of

529
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:56.199
<v Speaker 3>open arted presence. So this is really hard for a

530
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of people, you know, for a lot of family caregivers,

531
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:05.920
<v Speaker 3>they feel such a sense of responsibility. You know, I'm

532
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:10.559
<v Speaker 3>blessed by having, you know, just wonderful in laws. My

533
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:14.840
<v Speaker 3>father in law has been very, very ill, and at

534
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:16.800
<v Speaker 3>least twice we thought he was at the very end

535
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.079
<v Speaker 3>of his life. But he's come back to a large degree,

536
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:26.519
<v Speaker 3>I think because of the intense, loving support of his wife.

537
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:31.239
<v Speaker 3>But it's really difficult for my mother in law to

538
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:36.480
<v Speaker 3>sit down and to be still as supportive as that

539
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 3>can be, right, And people are sometimes just wired that way,

540
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:47.719
<v Speaker 3>that's just how they are. So you know, I'm often

541
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:52.159
<v Speaker 3>encouraging people, even if it's just for two or three minutes,

542
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:56.239
<v Speaker 3>to stop what they're doing, just to be fully present.

543
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:00.599
<v Speaker 3>You know, give that person you're caring for those two

544
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:07.119
<v Speaker 3>three minutes, and you know, see what you notice. And

545
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.679
<v Speaker 3>I think, really that's what we're talking about when we

546
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:16.480
<v Speaker 3>talk about bearing witness. This word bearing is it's beautiful

547
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:21.079
<v Speaker 3>to me. You know. It really addresses this idea of

548
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:27.280
<v Speaker 3>being with suffering, right, which is compassion. So we're bearing

549
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:33.559
<v Speaker 3>whatever shows up. And it can be easy to want

550
00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 3>to turn away from suffering. Even after all my years

551
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.400
<v Speaker 3>of practice, I still experience this. I sit with someone

552
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.880
<v Speaker 3>on a regular basis who has a really horrible chronic illness,

553
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:52.559
<v Speaker 3>and because of this person's life experience, I become the

554
00:43:52.599 --> 00:44:00.519
<v Speaker 3>recipient of really difficult stories and from childhood trauma. And

555
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:06.920
<v Speaker 3>there are moments where, if I'm not trying to offer

556
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:11.079
<v Speaker 3>comfort or fix the situation, I want to get up

557
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:13.880
<v Speaker 3>and get away from this. I admit it, you know.

558
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:21.239
<v Speaker 3>And so in those moments when I notice that core inclination,

559
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.719
<v Speaker 3>which I think is primarily a fear response, you know,

560
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 3>because I'm trying to flee, right, it's that flight response,

561
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.239
<v Speaker 3>I remind myself, Roy, all you need to do, all

562
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.480
<v Speaker 3>you need to do here is stay for one more breath,

563
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.119
<v Speaker 3>be here fully for one more breath, and then another

564
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.599
<v Speaker 3>and then another. That's all you need to do. Just

565
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:50.599
<v Speaker 3>be here, listen, bear, witness. Nothing else is being asked

566
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:55.760
<v Speaker 3>of you. And it's not as if I'm dismissing the

567
00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:00.440
<v Speaker 3>pain and anguish that's being shared with me. But I'm

568
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:04.639
<v Speaker 3>just reminding myself that I have the capacity to be

569
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:10.639
<v Speaker 3>here with this person, to witness this suffering, and my

570
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:16.119
<v Speaker 3>only job is to make her feel a sense of

571
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.320
<v Speaker 3>connection to something more than what she's describing or her

572
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:22.480
<v Speaker 3>current circumstances.

573
00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Is this person processing these memories and using them as

574
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.480
<v Speaker 2>a blame factor, or is it more just that this

575
00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.159
<v Speaker 2>is a life experience that she wants to express to you.

576
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.599
<v Speaker 3>I think it depends on the day. Oh really, I

577
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:48.000
<v Speaker 3>think sometimes there's a recognition. I think this is true

578
00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 3>for all of us. There's a recognition that, you know,

579
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:56.880
<v Speaker 3>the challenges that we've faced in life have made us

580
00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:01.400
<v Speaker 3>into the person we are today, and for some that

581
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:08.199
<v Speaker 3>brings comfort. For others that can bring regret. But sadly,

582
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:14.719
<v Speaker 3>some people and you know, I feel fortunate that whatever

583
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:19.079
<v Speaker 3>trauma I've experienced in my life has been minimal. But

584
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.440
<v Speaker 3>we know this to be true. There are people walking

585
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.960
<v Speaker 3>around out there who have endured suffered such trauma we

586
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:33.760
<v Speaker 3>can't even imagine. And I think when that describes our

587
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 3>life experience, it can be easy to get stuck in

588
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:45.039
<v Speaker 3>those stories and to feel tethered to those stories, and

589
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.199
<v Speaker 3>so we return to them again and again. But you know,

590
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:53.840
<v Speaker 3>I have this deep trust that in telling those stories

591
00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:58.440
<v Speaker 3>of something that in a sense is no longer relevant,

592
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:02.960
<v Speaker 3>that the processing of those stories, there's something healthy that

593
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:07.960
<v Speaker 3>comes of it. You know. Another chapter of the book

594
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:12.159
<v Speaker 3>is focused on storytelling, and this is a really important

595
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 3>piece to caregiving. I think because so many caregivers experience

596
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:21.280
<v Speaker 3>so much social isolation, you know, it's important for them

597
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:25.559
<v Speaker 3>to be able to be witnessed and to tell their stories.

598
00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:32.000
<v Speaker 3>And they deserve to have their stories told, So I

599
00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:39.000
<v Speaker 3>encourage people wherever they can to find opportunities to share story.

600
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.480
<v Speaker 3>And for a lot of caregivers that's not going to

601
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:45.280
<v Speaker 3>be welcomed, or it may not even be possible. And

602
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:49.079
<v Speaker 3>if that's the case, for someone out there listening, go

603
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.360
<v Speaker 3>to your journal, or go to the memo app on

604
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:56.239
<v Speaker 3>your phone and just let those stories move through your

605
00:47:56.280 --> 00:48:02.440
<v Speaker 3>body and be expressed orally, because there is something I

606
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:08.400
<v Speaker 3>think really worthwhile and healthy in that act of reflecting

607
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.280
<v Speaker 3>upon an experience through story.

608
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:16.840
<v Speaker 2>We're going to take a short commercial break to allow

609
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:20.960
<v Speaker 2>our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly

610
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:26.079
<v Speaker 2>with my guest today, Roy Reamer, discussing his new book,

611
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:32.519
<v Speaker 2>Zen Caregiving. We'll be right back with you.

612
00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:59.679
<v Speaker 1>Move comes with the early summer line cating way gently

613
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.760
<v Speaker 1>by the wind.

614
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:05.480
<v Speaker 4>And jously.

615
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.679
<v Speaker 2>My guest today is Roy Reemer. He has written a

616
00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:21.280
<v Speaker 2>new book called Zen Caregiving, How to care for yourself

617
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Speaker 2>while caring for others. And this is a look at

618
00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:27.840
<v Speaker 2>a variety of different care scenarios, including hospice, people who

619
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:31.960
<v Speaker 2>are very ill, and people who need home care or

620
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:39.239
<v Speaker 2>hospital care in different scenarios. Why is there resistance to

621
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.840
<v Speaker 2>storytelling when you're in groups? Why would people have a

622
00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:44.480
<v Speaker 2>problem with that?

623
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:48.760
<v Speaker 3>Well, two things come to mind. One is I've heard

624
00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:52.760
<v Speaker 3>from a lot of caregivers that they feel so burned

625
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.480
<v Speaker 3>by their own circumstances they don't feel like they can

626
00:49:56.119 --> 00:50:01.039
<v Speaker 3>hear one more story of someone else who's suffering. But

627
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.559
<v Speaker 3>the other thing that comes to mind is, you know,

628
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.360
<v Speaker 3>as a people, our brains are changing, right Like, we're

629
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:16.199
<v Speaker 3>constantly bombarded by distractions, and I've certainly noticed how language

630
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:22.840
<v Speaker 3>has really changed. We've become so incredibly efficient and communicating

631
00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:27.679
<v Speaker 3>with each other through you know, text messages and whatnot

632
00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:31.559
<v Speaker 3>that I feel like people are losing the capacity to

633
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:38.679
<v Speaker 3>not just listen to story, but they're losing contact with

634
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:44.400
<v Speaker 3>the wonder that can come from hearing someone tell their story,

635
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:50.079
<v Speaker 3>you know, and caring for someone is so much about storytelling,

636
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 3>like we want to you know, there's this whole body

637
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:58.760
<v Speaker 3>of work that's referred to as narrative medicine, and it's

638
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.079
<v Speaker 3>so healthy for people who are dealing with an illness

639
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:08.239
<v Speaker 3>to tell their story. And I think it's also true

640
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:15.639
<v Speaker 3>for someone who's caring for someone with illness. Like, sharing

641
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.079
<v Speaker 3>story can be really good medicine for someone who's caring

642
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.280
<v Speaker 3>for another person.

643
00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:22.639
<v Speaker 2>So it's like a release of some kind. Would you

644
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:27.159
<v Speaker 2>say it's you're calling it medicine, so you're and you

645
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.519
<v Speaker 2>just use the word therapeutic. So obviously in your practice

646
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:33.679
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing this this release.

647
00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:38.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, Cliff, I, in addition to the work

648
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 3>I do with a caregiving project, I'm quite fortunate to

649
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.920
<v Speaker 3>have found my way into what's referred to as earth

650
00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:48.800
<v Speaker 3>based rights of passage and you know, inviting people out

651
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.400
<v Speaker 3>onto the land. We typically are out in the desert,

652
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:56.800
<v Speaker 3>but to have some experience that marks some big passage

653
00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:59.920
<v Speaker 3>in their life. So much of our time has spent

654
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:08.239
<v Speaker 3>in circle sharing story, and this becomes so therapeutic for people,

655
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:13.360
<v Speaker 3>so helpful, And part of it is that we can

656
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.039
<v Speaker 3>do this one on one. But in these circles, someone

657
00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:19.519
<v Speaker 3>will share a story and then as a guide I

658
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:23.559
<v Speaker 3>might mirror back to them elements of their story so

659
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:27.039
<v Speaker 3>that they are able to see their story and their

660
00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:31.159
<v Speaker 3>experience in a slightly different way. So I feel like

661
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:36.599
<v Speaker 3>this is the metabolizing of experience by being able to

662
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.599
<v Speaker 3>utter allowed a story or to put it to paper,

663
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:47.559
<v Speaker 3>and then as we're speaking our story, we're hearing it,

664
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:51.840
<v Speaker 3>and then we might gain insights that we would not

665
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:58.760
<v Speaker 3>otherwise gain, or it's an easy way to recognize the

666
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.360
<v Speaker 3>patterns of behavior we get stuck in. So if I

667
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:08.679
<v Speaker 3>have some default attitude towards, you know, particular activity or

668
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:13.280
<v Speaker 3>particular thing that someone might say, by sharing it with

669
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:17.760
<v Speaker 3>someone else, I get to reflect upon, Ah, wow, that's

670
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 3>kind of a common pattern. You know, maybe I need

671
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:25.159
<v Speaker 3>to look at this, but I would say, you know, ultimately,

672
00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:27.119
<v Speaker 3>it just helps us feel more connected.

673
00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:30.440
<v Speaker 2>I keep feeling. The word that came to my mind

674
00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.639
<v Speaker 2>is grounding. For some reason, when you're storytelling it, you're

675
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:40.159
<v Speaker 2>grounding in humanity because you're able to express an experience

676
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:44.360
<v Speaker 2>that you've had to others, and then you see their face.

677
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.960
<v Speaker 2>It's a form of connection because they're reacting, either positively

678
00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:50.800
<v Speaker 2>or negatively.

679
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:55.639
<v Speaker 3>I guess, well, that's right, that's beautiful. And you know,

680
00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:59.119
<v Speaker 3>hearing you share that, it brings me to this idea

681
00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:04.559
<v Speaker 3>of vulnerability. You know, to share a story with someone

682
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:08.480
<v Speaker 3>invites you into this place of vulnerability. Very good, And

683
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.679
<v Speaker 3>if we can express our vulnerability, then I think it

684
00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:19.880
<v Speaker 3>helps us move toward a place of more self compassion.

685
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps forgiveness and as the recipient of a story, that's

686
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:32.000
<v Speaker 3>a role we can play is to you know, mirror

687
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.239
<v Speaker 3>back to the person who's sharing the story. Yeah, this

688
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.360
<v Speaker 3>is what it means to be human. You know your

689
00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:45.239
<v Speaker 3>circumstances are uniquely yours, but to suffer in this particular way,

690
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:49.280
<v Speaker 3>you know you're not alone. This is just what it

691
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:55.159
<v Speaker 3>means to be human. And I think that soothes or

692
00:54:55.239 --> 00:55:01.159
<v Speaker 3>addresses feelings of isolation in the role that can be

693
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:04.199
<v Speaker 3>so common to caregivers.

694
00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:07.159
<v Speaker 2>I want to cover just as we close a few

695
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:13.960
<v Speaker 2>practical applications, what are two or three simple practices a

696
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:20.079
<v Speaker 2>caregiver can start today that will immediately improve their experience.

697
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:26.599
<v Speaker 3>What comes to mind is this idea of a pause.

698
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:36.440
<v Speaker 3>So again I want to acknowledge and honor the time

699
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:42.000
<v Speaker 3>limitations that so many family caregivers are even paid caregivers

700
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.679
<v Speaker 3>confront or face. But there have been some really interesting

701
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:52.199
<v Speaker 3>studies that show even just pausing long enough for three

702
00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:58.320
<v Speaker 3>intentional breaths. So just pausing and paying attention, or as

703
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:03.960
<v Speaker 3>a colleague of mind says, your breath and allowing your

704
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:08.840
<v Speaker 3>attention to follow three breaths in and out, you know,

705
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:12.679
<v Speaker 3>this can stimulate that parasympathetic nervous system, which will begin

706
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:19.599
<v Speaker 3>to calm the body and mind. So that's I have

707
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:21.679
<v Speaker 3>to admit, I find it hard that someone wouldn't be

708
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 3>able to find time to follow three breaths in and out.

709
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:27.719
<v Speaker 3>And then you know, once you pause once during your

710
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 3>day to do that, then you can begin to integrate

711
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:36.440
<v Speaker 3>more experiences of this right. And I would recommend to

712
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:40.360
<v Speaker 3>people that when they pause to do this, they even

713
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:43.199
<v Speaker 3>place a hand upon their chest over their heart and

714
00:56:43.400 --> 00:56:47.440
<v Speaker 3>just sense into that touch. You know, this can be

715
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:51.400
<v Speaker 3>really useful. The other piece that I would say is

716
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:57.440
<v Speaker 3>feel your feet in contact with the floor beneath you.

717
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:01.159
<v Speaker 3>If you can get outside and stand upon, you know,

718
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:05.920
<v Speaker 3>a patch of exposed earth, all the better, And you know,

719
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.440
<v Speaker 3>remind yourself, I am connected to something much bigger than myself.

720
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:14.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, I am here because of this great mother

721
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Earth that I'm standing upon that I'm feeling myself in

722
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:22.559
<v Speaker 3>contact with. And you know, people can take that in

723
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:24.639
<v Speaker 3>a lot of different directions. If they're feeling a lot

724
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:30.360
<v Speaker 3>of stress, if they're feeling a particular big emotion, they

725
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.079
<v Speaker 3>can give that stress. They can give that emotion back

726
00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:37.159
<v Speaker 3>to the earth, and Earth will compost that for them,

727
00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:39.440
<v Speaker 3>but to feel that sense of connection, and what that

728
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:42.719
<v Speaker 3>does is it puts someone back in their body and

729
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:47.440
<v Speaker 3>the sensations of the body our present moment experience. It

730
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:50.400
<v Speaker 3>can't be otherwise, you know. Then we start to layer

731
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.079
<v Speaker 3>stories on it, and then we leave present moment awareness.

732
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:57.199
<v Speaker 3>But you know, when we're paying attention to sensations in

733
00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:00.760
<v Speaker 3>the body, we're in the present moment. So I think

734
00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:05.079
<v Speaker 3>these are good practice. I'll name one more and then

735
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:12.559
<v Speaker 3>we'll move on, I guess, But in your pause or otherwise,

736
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:19.760
<v Speaker 3>just remind yourself that I'm human and I'm doing the

737
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:24.960
<v Speaker 3>best I can and that's all I can do. That's

738
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:28.079
<v Speaker 3>all I can do. I'm showing up for this and

739
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:31.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to make mistakes and that's just the way

740
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:39.000
<v Speaker 3>it is. Yeah, but I'm showing up and I can

741
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.840
<v Speaker 3>hold my experience when I mess up or when I'm struggling,

742
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:49.440
<v Speaker 3>and that's how I can keep moving forward.

743
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:55.639
<v Speaker 2>Can you suggest a practice? I mean, I have not

744
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:58.440
<v Speaker 2>been a hospice care person, but I would think in

745
00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:02.400
<v Speaker 2>the beginning and maybe even after a while, the feeling

746
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:07.880
<v Speaker 2>of depression is a big one. Yeah, I meditate, I

747
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:11.559
<v Speaker 2>can relieve myself. But a lot of people don't care

748
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:13.960
<v Speaker 2>to meditate, They don't want to be in that space.

749
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:19.039
<v Speaker 2>Is there a psychological practice that you recommend for a

750
00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:23.559
<v Speaker 2>caretaker that can be incorporated when you're feeling like you're

751
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:26.079
<v Speaker 2>weighted down by the experience?

752
00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:29.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, first I should say, you know, I want to

753
00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:33.119
<v Speaker 3>be careful here because I don't have clinical training as

754
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:37.199
<v Speaker 3>a psychologist or a therapist. Yeah, but from my own experience.

755
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:39.880
<v Speaker 3>So that's to say, you know, I can't really address

756
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:46.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, symptoms of you know, clinical or depression.

757
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:48.360
<v Speaker 2>But when.

758
00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:55.280
<v Speaker 3>We're feeling weighted down by the sadness or grief from

759
00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:58.000
<v Speaker 3>witnessing a loved one as they approach the end of

760
00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:05.280
<v Speaker 3>their life, I would say, what can be extremely supportive,

761
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:11.800
<v Speaker 3>apart from sharing your feelings with another one in your

762
01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:16.760
<v Speaker 3>storytelling is once again like, even if you can't get

763
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:22.519
<v Speaker 3>outside because of the climate or the season or circumstances,

764
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:27.159
<v Speaker 3>maybe you're in the middle of the city, you know,

765
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:35.239
<v Speaker 3>find images online or wherever you can that give you

766
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:39.199
<v Speaker 3>a sense of awe and a connection to something bigger

767
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:44.679
<v Speaker 3>than yourself. The natural world mirrors back to us the

768
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:52.199
<v Speaker 3>reality of impermanence and the way that even as elements

769
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:56.440
<v Speaker 3>die away, you know, it's giving way to something new,

770
01:00:56.679 --> 01:01:04.280
<v Speaker 3>to emerge, something as worthy of our awe as the thing,

771
01:01:04.360 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 3>the plant, the tree, the mountain, whatever is falling away again.

772
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:14.480
<v Speaker 3>You know, when we're in an experience of intense grief,

773
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:18.679
<v Speaker 3>our mind is really contracted. So if we can open

774
01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:21.360
<v Speaker 3>up to be aware of what else is out there,

775
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.480
<v Speaker 3>I think this can be really helpful. It just breathes

776
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:26.559
<v Speaker 3>some space into the experience.

777
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.960
<v Speaker 2>That's amazing because I would think, you're right. You get

778
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:34.280
<v Speaker 2>out in nature and you're automatically shifted away from whatever

779
01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:38.039
<v Speaker 2>you've been experiencing into this natural world. And we don't

780
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:42.199
<v Speaker 2>even have a word for it. It's like observing nature, absorbing

781
01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:44.079
<v Speaker 2>nature right.

782
01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:49.159
<v Speaker 3>Now, observing nature, and you know, recognizing that and again,

783
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.639
<v Speaker 3>this is my belief system. But this person who I

784
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:56.599
<v Speaker 3>care so much about, this person who is saying goodbye

785
01:01:56.639 --> 01:02:00.920
<v Speaker 3>to their life, I'm saying goodbye to this is what

786
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:04.159
<v Speaker 3>they're releasing into this beauty. Even if you're in the

787
01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:05.840
<v Speaker 3>middle of the city and you can only look up

788
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:09.360
<v Speaker 3>at the blue sky or the passing clouds, you know,

789
01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:14.440
<v Speaker 3>we can derive great solas from reminding ourselves that that

790
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:18.360
<v Speaker 3>is the container that holds this narrow human experience. This

791
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:22.719
<v Speaker 3>beautiful human experience that includes death and dying.

792
01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:27.960
<v Speaker 2>The books called Zen Caregiving How to care for yourself

793
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:31.920
<v Speaker 2>well caring for others. My guest today has been Roy Reamer.

794
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I have to ask this question because we're here in

795
01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the Bay Area. Roy, have you had any input from

796
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:52.159
<v Speaker 2>AI in terms of perhaps conversations on how to apply

797
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:58.760
<v Speaker 2>therapy anything. I'm just curious because it's growing exponentially and

798
01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:01.920
<v Speaker 2>there are specific big types of AI that are being

799
01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:06.400
<v Speaker 2>designed for certain industries. Medicine is one of them, and

800
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:09.480
<v Speaker 2>some of the language is showing that at some point

801
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:14.320
<v Speaker 2>you can take a diagnosis, process it through AI and

802
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:16.679
<v Speaker 2>it will give you an idea of how to treat

803
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:22.000
<v Speaker 2>it with your doctor's you know, approval, And but I'm

804
01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:25.880
<v Speaker 2>just curious in your field if AI has been approached

805
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:26.239
<v Speaker 2>at all.

806
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:32.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm going to set aside the medical aspects of

807
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:38.320
<v Speaker 3>the question, mostly because I'm not familiar with how it's

808
01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:43.599
<v Speaker 3>being used in the medical context. However, while our organization

809
01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:50.920
<v Speaker 3>has not yet used AI as in say, you know,

810
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:54.679
<v Speaker 3>offering people a resource where they can say, share their story,

811
01:03:56.599 --> 01:04:00.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, I use AI and I really appreciate AI

812
01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:06.400
<v Speaker 3>in terms of, you know, crafting communications on a more

813
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:15.880
<v Speaker 3>administrative level. But you know I'm part of Death Cafe.

814
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:18.199
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with the

815
01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:21.639
<v Speaker 3>area of Death Cafe, these venues to gather and talk

816
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:24.760
<v Speaker 3>about death and dying. I've been part of this group

817
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:29.000
<v Speaker 3>for several years now, and one of our participants, a

818
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:33.440
<v Speaker 3>dear friend of mine, is quite enthusiastic about the potential

819
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:39.639
<v Speaker 3>of AI, and he posed some questions to AI about

820
01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:46.159
<v Speaker 3>impermanence and death and just asking it to reflect upon

821
01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:49.920
<v Speaker 3>a particular loss he was dealing with. And what came back,

822
01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:53.199
<v Speaker 3>I have to tell you clip was just beautiful and

823
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:57.320
<v Speaker 3>it brought me great joy because it was a harvesting

824
01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:01.880
<v Speaker 3>a reflection of the collective intelligence of what we as

825
01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:06.119
<v Speaker 3>humans know about death and dying. That was I was

826
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:08.599
<v Speaker 3>blown away by that. It was really impressive.

827
01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:11.960
<v Speaker 2>So I'd love to hear that, I really do. That's amazing.

828
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember what program it was? What LLC?

829
01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:15.440
<v Speaker 1>It was?

830
01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:20.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? That or was clot or I was early on.

831
01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:26.280
<v Speaker 3>I I think it was Chad Gpt that I'd have

832
01:05:26.360 --> 01:05:26.920
<v Speaker 3>to ask.

833
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:29.639
<v Speaker 2>I think that that that is so cool. I wasn't

834
01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:32.000
<v Speaker 2>sure how you would react, Roy. I thought, you know,

835
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:35.280
<v Speaker 2>you could be like, it's not appropriate for my field,

836
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:38.360
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's kind of permeates everything, you know

837
01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:38.800
<v Speaker 2>what I mean.

838
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:41.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it does it PREMI and it will continue to

839
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:45.079
<v Speaker 3>do so. And you know, I certainly have my personal

840
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:52.559
<v Speaker 3>attitudes about AI, but I also recognize that, yeah, it

841
01:05:52.719 --> 01:05:55.559
<v Speaker 3>may be a really useful tool for some folks, especially

842
01:05:56.840 --> 01:06:02.000
<v Speaker 3>if they're feeling isolated and they want to hear a

843
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:07.119
<v Speaker 3>different perspective on some of the challenges that they're dealing with.

844
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Zen Caregiving. Okay, give us some information about how people

845
01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.320
<v Speaker 2>can learn more about you, Roy. What's the website that

846
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:19.159
<v Speaker 2>you refer people to, and give us some of your

847
01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:22.320
<v Speaker 2>social media contacts as well. Please, that's great.

848
01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:27.639
<v Speaker 3>You know, I run this nonprofit organization and as many

849
01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:32.079
<v Speaker 3>people recognize, you know, running a nonprofit, sustaining financially a

850
01:06:32.119 --> 01:06:36.440
<v Speaker 3>nonprofit these days is challenging. So I'm really channeling everyone

851
01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:38.519
<v Speaker 3>to the organization to find out more about the book

852
01:06:38.519 --> 01:06:44.800
<v Speaker 3>and myself. And that's www. Zencaregiving dot org and we

853
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.079
<v Speaker 3>have a page dedicated to the book. You can find

854
01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:51.639
<v Speaker 3>out more about what I'm up to and the classes

855
01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:55.840
<v Speaker 3>we teach for caregivers. We have one self paced course

856
01:06:55.920 --> 01:07:00.599
<v Speaker 3>which I think is really strong that people can participate

857
01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:02.239
<v Speaker 3>in in their own time.

858
01:07:03.159 --> 01:07:06.920
<v Speaker 2>You say self paid, Are you saying self paste, So

859
01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:11.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying it again, self paced, self pace okay.

860
01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:14.559
<v Speaker 3>So it's just an asynchronous course, oh, excellent, okay. Whereas

861
01:07:14.599 --> 01:07:19.280
<v Speaker 3>most of our courses are online but live with other caregivers.

862
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:22.599
<v Speaker 3>This is someone if they can't make one of our

863
01:07:22.760 --> 01:07:26.360
<v Speaker 3>classes the timing work, they can do the course on

864
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:26.880
<v Speaker 3>their own.

865
01:07:28.039 --> 01:07:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Okay. And do you have a YouTube channel or are

866
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>you doing online programs other than the one you just mentioned.

867
01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:43.519
<v Speaker 3>We have a number of webinars and some video content

868
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:48.360
<v Speaker 3>that we host on our website. We do have a

869
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:53.920
<v Speaker 3>YouTube channel, which is Zen Caregiving. People can find it

870
01:07:53.960 --> 01:08:00.559
<v Speaker 3>that way, and certainly we're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn's excellent,

871
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:01.880
<v Speaker 3>please come find us.

872
01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:07.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fantastic, roy a real pleasure, much success on this

873
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:10.079
<v Speaker 2>new book. I think you got something there, and uh,

874
01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:11.800
<v Speaker 2>there's pleasure having you on the program.

875
01:08:11.880 --> 01:08:14.800
<v Speaker 3>I appreciate it clip and I appreciate everyone out there

876
01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:18.399
<v Speaker 3>listening who's doing great work in their lives. So may

877
01:08:18.439 --> 01:08:19.039
<v Speaker 3>you all be well.

878
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:30.560
<v Speaker 2>Hospice care terminally illness dying is a real tough subject

879
01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:34.640
<v Speaker 2>in the West because we don't like to we don't

880
01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:37.800
<v Speaker 2>like to talk about dying. It's a part of life.

881
01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:41.520
<v Speaker 2>It's our Our culture is all about being young. And

882
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:47.239
<v Speaker 2>that's why the cosmetic surgery is just huge here. I

883
01:08:47.239 --> 01:08:50.880
<v Speaker 2>mean it's huge in other countries. Whatnot is wide they

884
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:54.399
<v Speaker 2>used as it is here. And you know, we just

885
01:08:54.439 --> 01:08:56.199
<v Speaker 2>don't want to get old. We don't want to get

886
01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:59.279
<v Speaker 2>We don't want to consider that our time is coming

887
01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:04.680
<v Speaker 2>to an end. And when you get ill and you

888
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:10.319
<v Speaker 2>are you know, pronounced terminal, your diagnosis is terminal, that's

889
01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:13.159
<v Speaker 2>not something that a lot of people want to talk about.

890
01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:15.880
<v Speaker 2>And I've seen this in other families. I've seen this

891
01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:21.119
<v Speaker 2>with other people. And that's why people like Elizabeth Kobola

892
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Ross and others began writing about this, because our ancestors

893
01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:32.319
<v Speaker 2>understood that dying is a part of living. But it's

894
01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:34.840
<v Speaker 2>a challenge to think about it, you know. I mean,

895
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:36.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't want to be I don't want

896
01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:39.079
<v Speaker 2>to die. I had a heart attack and it freaked

897
01:09:39.079 --> 01:09:42.960
<v Speaker 2>me out, you know, a few years ago, and I

898
01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:46.640
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh my god, this is it. But the

899
01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:49.319
<v Speaker 2>truth of the matter is that I haven't processed it enough.

900
01:09:50.680 --> 01:09:53.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, we're kind of out of whack in the West.

901
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:58.920
<v Speaker 2>We're just all about collecting stuff and are we have

902
01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a great deal of just funk. And that's why having

903
01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:06.760
<v Speaker 2>somebody like Roy on the program who does practice zen

904
01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:13.159
<v Speaker 2>meditation and approach to life otherwise known as mindfulness, this

905
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:18.239
<v Speaker 2>is a critical aspect of everyday life. And I'm not

906
01:10:18.279 --> 01:10:20.479
<v Speaker 2>saying you have to go and sit with somebody who's

907
01:10:20.600 --> 01:10:23.840
<v Speaker 2>dying in hospice, but it's something that we need to

908
01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:30.520
<v Speaker 2>be more aware of. And it's really critical to understand

909
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:34.279
<v Speaker 2>and to take in that our time on the planet

910
01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:40.079
<v Speaker 2>as a physical being is limited now metaphysically, if you

911
01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:44.960
<v Speaker 2>talk about and you bring up past life, that's a

912
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.600
<v Speaker 2>whole different animal. And some people are like, Okay, I'm

913
01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:50.760
<v Speaker 2>going to take off. I'll come back in another lifetime.

914
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I have a couple of friends that are like, I

915
01:10:53.880 --> 01:10:56.119
<v Speaker 2>am not coming back to Earth. It's just such a

916
01:10:56.159 --> 01:10:58.760
<v Speaker 2>goddamn mess here. I do not want to come back.

917
01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:02.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm going on another planet. And there's a lot of

918
01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:05.159
<v Speaker 2>case work for that too, because there's a lot of belief,

919
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:12.239
<v Speaker 2>especially among a Native indigenous people, that you can come

920
01:11:12.279 --> 01:11:17.079
<v Speaker 2>from another planetary system and incarnate into a physical Earth human.

921
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:19.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's why a lot of people are kind of

922
01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:24.319
<v Speaker 2>feeling like they're not quite adapting to the norms of

923
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:29.399
<v Speaker 2>this culture, the Earth culture. So anyhow, the sky's a

924
01:11:29.439 --> 01:11:31.760
<v Speaker 2>limited on this, but I hope you enjoy that. And

925
01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:36.079
<v Speaker 2>his book's coming out very shortly and I think it's

926
01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:40.159
<v Speaker 2>a good one. All right, that's it for this program.

927
01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I want, I think my guest today, Roy Reemer, coming

928
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:48.079
<v Speaker 2>to us from northern California. As always, the team of Gaeltour,

929
01:11:48.800 --> 01:11:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Mark Foster, Faya Pavar. You guys rock all right, take

930
01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:56.199
<v Speaker 2>care of you will and we will talk to you

931
01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:56.760
<v Speaker 2>next time.

932
01:12:45.800 --> 01:15:54.159
<v Speaker 4>I don't know no, I don't know no. I don't

933
01:18:27.119 --> 01:25:26.399
<v Speaker 4>know no. So no, I don't know no. O. Oh no,

934
01:26:22.199 --> 01:32:12.600
<v Speaker 4>I don't know no. I don't know no, no no,

935
01:32:12.800 --> 01:34:05.960
<v Speaker 4>I s