WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.519 You are listening to Redefining Energy. 2 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:15.519 Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Raid and from London 3 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:21.199 Laurent Segalam. Today on Redefining Energy, we're going to talk 4 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:24.519 about decarbonizing buildings, Laura. 5 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.679 Yes, Jaden. There's a lot of action going on. Probably 6 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:29.679 first award from my. 7 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:34.479 Partner, Redefining Energy sponsored by a Mundi, the leading European 8 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.200 asset manager, your trusted partner to accelerate the transition to 9 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.320 a low carbon future. Leading asset manager based on the 10 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:47.520 IPE ranking. Investing involves risk, can solt your financial advisor. 11 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:51.679 Yes, Jada. It's an important topic because the sector of 12 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:56.280 buildings accounts for thirty seven percent of all emission, so 13 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.679 it's a third pilar of decarbonization next to a generation 14 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.079 and transportation. 15 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:05.040 Yeah, and it's always been the one that has been 16 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:10.280 regarded as really hard to decarbonize. And my own view 17 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:15.200 is that's changing, and it's changing because of rapid technology 18 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:20.040 change which actually enables us to decarbonize buildings. But that's 19 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.159 only my opinion. So we decided let's bring on an expert. 20 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:27.359 And that expert you met him at the World Economic Forum, 21 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:31.480 and I will explain in the conclusion why you are invited, 22 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:32.120 but never me. 23 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:39.719 I got to know Vincent Petite, who is senior vice 24 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:43.480 president at Schneider and he's really in charge of their 25 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:47.959 sustainability research institute, and we've we've been talking for a long, 26 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.439 long while in and around what's needed, and what he 27 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.879 felt was needed was just a publication of data in 28 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:58.200 and around buildings, and no better company to do that 29 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.879 than Schneider given the fact that they've got energy management 30 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:02.799 systems and buildings across the world. 31 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:05.560 Good Look, it's a good moment because there are a 32 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:10.960 lot of regulation coming online. In Europe. We have something 33 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:15.520 called as usual in Europe, it's a mouseful, the Energy 34 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:20.400 Performance of Building Directive EPBD. What do you want to 35 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:21.080 say about that? 36 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.680 Well, I think this is a game changer. The reason 37 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.280 I think it's a game changer is because what you've 38 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:33.479 got is a binding target across Europe to reduce carbon 39 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:37.759 emissions by sixteen percent by twenty thirty and up to 40 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:40.560 twenty two percent by twenty thirty five. So it's a 41 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:42.080 little bit like we had before a row on this 42 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:46.280 redewble energy target, but now it's in buildings and that 43 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.680 means you have to invest in energy performance, whether that's 44 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:55.919 solar batteries, artificial intelligence, energy management systems, you name it. 45 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:56.680 That's where we're going. 46 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.439 Okay, so let's bring versus Computy on the show to 47 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:05.680 discuss that regulation and a lot of other things. Vincent, 48 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:06.879 Welcome to the show. 49 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.879 It'll all so Vincent first, it is great to have 50 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:11.439 you on the show. 51 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.520 We're really interested to sort of dig into building efficiency 52 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.120 and what we can do there in terms of decarbonization. 53 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.759 And what you seem to see is huge. 54 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.360 Change going on in the building area, where what you're 55 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.680 seeing is a current approach, which is governments are incentivizing changes, 56 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:32.400 but there's also a stick. You know, your carbon tax 57 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:34.800 is coming in, etcetera. So it feels as if the 58 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:37.280 next part of the energy transition is all going to 59 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.400 be about buildings. Do you agree with that or how 60 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.560 do you see the future there in terms of the 61 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:45.360 energy transition and the role of buildings in it. 62 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.080 Yes, buildings. I think the next two pick we've seen 63 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.039 tre among those progress will either as decayed or saw 64 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:58.039 in some sectors like boil generation and mobility and the 65 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.080 next order of business buildings. My view is that it's 66 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:04.919 not completely started yet. It's started, but it's not completely 67 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.759 started to run up yet. However, the route is pretty 68 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.960 clear because we see a lot of things emerging. And 69 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:13.919 if you walk by the strait of where you live, 70 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.199 you start to see more and more households equipped with 71 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.920 solar panels. You start to see evs on the road, which, 72 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.839 by the way, are charging inside the homes and the buildings. 73 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.160 You start to see a lot of new solutions to 74 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:31.439 electrify buildings, to remove fussy fuels from buildings. You live 75 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.519 in buildings, and you have more and more digital capabilities 76 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.759 inside buildings. So all those things are here and they're 77 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:41.720 starting to perlate the building market, and when you start 78 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.399 to combine them, you see really buildings transforming in the 79 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:46.360 foreseeable future. 80 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.279 I was very struck by recently being in Japan and 81 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.199 if the Japanese approaches, you just knock the building down 82 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:54.319 and restart. 83 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:57.360 While we in Europe and North America we. 84 00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:59.480 Have a different approach, which is we say, let's keep 85 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.279 us and renovations. It seems to be expensive and difficult. 86 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.160 Yeah, you're right. I mean, if we look at the 87 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.120 global landscape, we tend to say in the Western world 88 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.240 that seventy percent of the buildings will still be here 89 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:14.680 in twenty fifty or something like that. It's actually a 90 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.040 Western perspective. I mean, if you look at it at 91 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.560 global level, it's not exactly the figures figure is more 92 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.759 around thirty to forty percent. Why because in many regions 93 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.800 of the world, the building stuck is actually about to 94 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.399 considerably increase, So it's going to be buildings of the 95 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.040 future versus buildings of the past that we try to renovate. Now, 96 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.079 coming to your point on renovation and the fact that 97 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:40.839 we traditionally consider that renovation is expensive, it's true, but 98 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.000 it depends on what renovation we're talking about. If we're 99 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:48.120 talking about rebuilding the walls, rebuilding the roof, rebuilding all 100 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.120 the insulation inside the building, that's true that it's expensive. 101 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.839 It brings a lot of efficiency, and don't get me wrong, 102 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.480 but it's true it's expensive. Now, what I was saying 103 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:01.600 right before about deploying period deploying electric solutions and on 104 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.120 integrating EV's and so on is a very different story. 105 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:07.920 And we could talk about this right because we've been 106 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.079 doing a lot of projects around the world and so 107 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.399 we have a little bit of experience on that. We 108 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.680 were also doing some research, some modeling research, on the topic. 109 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:19.240 So we see the benefits and the paybags and actually 110 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.879 well some issues, but the bottom line is it's not 111 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:22.720 that expensive. 112 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:25.040 Then that's a very good point to start with. 113 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:27.600 So you've done obviously a lot of research and modeling, 114 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.639 as you said, in this area. Maybe you could just 115 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.000 talk a little bit about your findings are. In other words, 116 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:34.759 if I want to go and renovate or upgrade a 117 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.920 building in terms of its energy grade, what should I. 118 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.519 Do To walk around the street? What do you see? 119 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:42.560 You see more and more homes with PVY, more and 120 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.079 more homes with hitt bombs, more and more home with 121 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.720 TV's and so so the interesting question is if you 122 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.120 combine all those changes together, what are the economics. Let 123 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.319 me talk about the research and the modeling we've done, 124 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.319 because it's interestingly enough, there's not been a lot of 125 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.319 research from the topic. Most of the result is actually 126 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.120 focused on the old way of doing things, and in fact, 127 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.199 what are the finding So long story short, when you 128 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.160 look at your annual bills, how much energy you pay, 129 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.279 what's the savings you make once you've clubbed all those 130 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:15.360 transformations together. Well, the savings you get range between twenty 131 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.560 and eighty percent across different types of buildings and across 132 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.439 different regions. In the research we do, we look at 133 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.439 commercial buildings and residential buildings, and we look at that 134 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:29.120 across different regions in US, in Europe, in China. Mostly 135 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.720 this is what we've been looking at so far. There 136 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:34.360 are obviously a lot of differences across regions and building 137 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.519 types because the buildings are not the same, so the 138 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:39.360 capacities are not the same, the regions are not the same, 139 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:41.680 the weather is different on the tariffs are different on, 140 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:45.120 the local tonations are different. The cost of the technology 141 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:49.120 is also different. But overall you save up to eighty 142 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:51.839 percent of your bill. In the lower range you will 143 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.240 find a very large, tall buildings, like large office buildings 144 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.240 that you see in city centers. And in the higher range, 145 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.120 toward the eighty person, you will find your single family 146 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.920 household or big retail street mall and that kind of 147 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.040 thing that's for the bill. Now, if you look at 148 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.800 the payback, because obviously all this as a cost, it's 149 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.439 interesting already when we start discussing about payback to differentiate 150 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.000 about new construction and renovation, because you still have new 151 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:20.160 constructions happening even in Western economies. Even if it's a 152 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.800 small portion, but like I was saying before, you've got 153 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:26.000 a lot in new economies going on. When you look 154 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.439 at new constructions, the additional cost on the total cost 155 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.519 of construction is between two and eight percent, So that's 156 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:34.720 the bottom line, and actually the capex is going down, 157 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:37.519 so it's probably going to go further down going forward. 158 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.600 And when you look at renovations, the payback vary quite 159 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:45.720 greatly today between five years for some applications like for instance, hotel, 160 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.559 strip malls, schools, and so. Commercial buildings are actually much 161 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.919 better paybacks, and you have paybacks that are much higher. 162 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:57.679 For residential they can go up to twenty years or above. 163 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.159 In certain conditions. It varies, but in general the paybacks 164 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.399 remain quite acceptable. And we see as well happening and 165 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.320 you know that much better than I do, JR. Is 166 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:12.000 that actually the capex for all those technologies is going 167 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.120 down at rapid pace. On top of that, the value 168 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:17.960 chain is not yet completely structured to tackle those projects, 169 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.960 and the hassle factor, as we say, is still pretty important. 170 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:24.879 So you can expect those paybacks to improve dramatically. 171 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.399 Can you give me one or two example of major 172 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.879 renovation you've done and I guess I'm changing the light bulbs. 173 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.840 That's probably an easy one, but it's all about the 174 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.679 h FI heating system probably where there is the most 175 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:38.519 energy demand. 176 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:42.559 There's this project we did in Finland a couple of 177 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:45.559 years ago, so Biso and not necessarily the sunniest place 178 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:49.039 in the world in a city in nam Lipula, Java. 179 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.919 What it is is a net zero city center, so 180 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.840 it's a city center, so it's retail offices all together, 181 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.120 and they built it net zero and the payback was 182 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.720 five years. And with this the actual source fifty percent 183 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.399 of their energy demand from what they've got on their howtop. 184 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:06.919 So that's one example. I could give you another one. 185 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.399 It's also about the speed of chain. Those projects can 186 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:13.399 go very fast. So there's this project so this time 187 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:17.240 in US that we've done in the Montgomery County of Marylands. 188 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.320 You've got the city which has all these bus fleets, 189 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.440 so they've got like eighty public buses. They wanted to 190 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.759 decarbonize and to electrify their buses, which they did in 191 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.039 less than a year. We were actually able to have 192 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.559 them electrify their bus fleet and then to create a 193 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.879 full micro gride on their bus depot, which means that 194 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:37.759 probably all their charging is done with solar panels that 195 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:40.519 are on the canopies of the bus depot. And that 196 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.799 was a project that was done in a very short timeframe, right, 197 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:47.879 and then maybe a last one also because those are 198 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:51.840 relatively smaller applications, but that this is actually quite scalable 199 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:56.879 to build larger applications. We're currently working with the gfkare Port. 200 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.960 They're rebuilding their terminal one. The terminal one's going to 201 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:04.159 you full of microgrids, even megawats micro grids, but eight 202 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:08.240 megawetts of panels. They've got five megawets of storage. And 203 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:12.679 the target, which has been model simulated, validated one is 204 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:16.200 a reduction of emissions of about forty percent. And obviously 205 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.559 there will be fully resilient. There was a reason why 206 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:20.960 they did that was not a medical organization. Was also 207 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:23.639 resiliency in case you have a storm, they want the 208 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:25.840 terminal to still be operting and so on, and so 209 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:28.679 with this there sure this happens. 210 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.840 So I really understand this, and when I'm listening to 211 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:36.440 what you're talking about is really putting generation behind the 212 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.240 meatia And I understand you might say heat pumps is 213 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.200 not because it's a place is obliged. 214 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:45.240 But could you explain the energy efficiency benefits? 215 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.120 After all, you know, I can understand from a like 216 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:50.159 I'm a sharp I put soll on my roof, I 217 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:52.720 reduce my carbon emissions. But when I think of it 218 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.360 efficiency for me, it's lorentzop. Maybe earlier on it's LEDs. 219 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.879 You put LEDs in reduce consumption. So does the technology 220 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.720 talk about reduce consumption or the reducing emissions there as 221 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:04.039 a power? 222 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.679 It's both in fact, but probably I insisted a bit 223 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.200 on the generation behind the meter as you put it, 224 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.559 because I think it's a game changer. But in what 225 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.879 we do, it's a combination of things. It's about local generation, 226 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.600 but it's also about the hitt pont as you mentioned, which, 227 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:21.799 by the ways, bringing efficiency. And it's also about the 228 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.960 digital infrastructure because anyhow, once you've put that in place, 229 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.519 you know those two components, you need some level of 230 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:30.279 control locally in order to be able to manage that. 231 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:34.000 And those controls they do not only manage the generation, 232 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.720 they also manage the demand and the uses in a 233 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.240 whom the benefits are what they are. The are typically 234 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.600 between eight to ten percent of energy efficiency. But if 235 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:44.080 you go in a commercial building, if you go in 236 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.039 an office building, is the savings are actually much larger. 237 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.559 They are own ound twenty to thirty percent of energy demand. 238 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.240 And this is fairly simple because what you do people 239 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.759 leave a meeting, hold, you shut down the light, you 240 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:57.840 shut down the AC not everyone is coming at the office. 241 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.320 Nowadays we have some chromofice and so on not to 242 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.840 shut down parts of the buildings. That way you make 243 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.639 actually very significant energy efficiency saving. And by the way, 244 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:10.840 it's a different form of savings than you were mentioning 245 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:15.200 in the introduction Real insulation work and traditional renovation. Traditional 246 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.519 renovation is really about its passive efficiency if you want so, 247 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.679 it's really about braining down the baseline. What we're talking 248 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:26.399 about here is more active energy efficiency. So it's complementary, 249 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.639 but it's making sure that you optimize the uses of 250 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:33.360 the given building, getting to the law the minimum of 251 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.240 the baseline. And it's also about preventing rebond effects right, 252 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.519 which we have upseller with traditional efficiency measures as well. Well. 253 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:44.159 Vincent, listening to you, I believe that we have all 254 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:50.480 the necessary tools, whether it's heat pumps, hevise, solar batteries, 255 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.919 digital your name made, so can you expand a bit 256 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:53.879 on solar place. 257 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.799 Yes, thanks Lauren for the question, And I think that 258 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.639 ties up well with the previous questions from there or deficiency, 259 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.639 because there are other efficiencies beyond what you can actually 260 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.279 get inside the building. There are efficiencies that are more 261 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.759 at a system level, and PV is a good example 262 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.559 because we are in a race of supply and demand, 263 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:14.159 So how much fast can we ramp up the supply, 264 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.720 how much fast can we decarbanize the demand or electrifize 265 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:19.639 the demands. So we've got all this thing going on, 266 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:23.320 but the potent shoal of distributed generation, so host of 267 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.559 PV is much larger than we think in some research 268 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:29.799 we've done. But it's not only US. We've seen some 269 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.279 research in the US saying that forty percent of current 270 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:36.320 electricity demand could be provided by distributed generations. Imagine that. 271 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.799 In some studies we've done, we're thinking that we at 272 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.840 global level it's about twenty twenty five percent of electricity 273 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.360 demand that could be provided by distributed generation. So this 274 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.360 is a big accelerator of the transition. And coming back 275 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:53.080 to efficiency is also efficiency of use, lend use and 276 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:56.279 more very the role of distributed generation in the realm 277 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.639 of the electrification of building. You know, there are a 278 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.840 lot of discussions and people claiming that we're gonna need 279 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.559 to electrifize those buildings if we want to take organize them. Okay, 280 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.759 fair enough, but when we do that, we're going to 281 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.600 have a massive impact on the power raid because obviously 282 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.000 the demand for electricity is going to rise very significantly. 283 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.399 When in fact, when you start to put PIV on 284 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.879 your rooftop to a large extent, you mitigate that issue. 285 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.360 And we've done some simulation about this and it's clear 286 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.440 that in some areas you will face problems and there 287 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:28.200 may be local areas where you need to upgrade the 288 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.919 distribution in crastal jobs. But one thing that came up 289 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.559 in our work and that was actually quite a surprise 290 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.600 to us, is typically for commercial buildings, what we found 291 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.840 out is that for commercial buildings, if you've got the 292 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.919 right amount of PV, you actually mitigate the impact of 293 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:45.480 the electrification from the standpoint of the power raid. And 294 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:48.679 that's another big, big efficiency gainst for the system. 295 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.080 As all, I can now introduce one of my favorite 296 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:56.240 concepts jars and all of it the Jevons paradox. 297 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:00.320 You like that job, don't you we do the rebound effect. 298 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.519 Yeah, exactly. So the Gevens paradox means the more energy 299 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:06.519 efficiency you put in a system, the. 300 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.120 More energy is being consumed. 301 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.399 And I empathize with your thesis that discribution grid is 302 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:12.919 going to be okay because we're going to do a 303 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.159 lot of local generation. But when the suns are shining, 304 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.559 if you not have enough batteries, it's probably going to 305 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:20.600 work eighty percent of the time or eighty percent of 306 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.960 the time. But the problem are always the last ten percent. 307 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.240 And I don't think we have a problem on average, 308 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.200 but that system needs to work twenty four seven, three 309 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.879 sixty five, And of course the problem is it's the 310 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.519 total heat wave or the blizzard, and maybe it's going 311 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.519 to happen thirty days a year. That's how big the 312 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.519 system needs to be designed, plus a little margin. So 313 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.240 are we just running on a treadmill? 314 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.559 Appear on your point on a rebound effect, which is 315 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.919 a very good point because I look a bit at 316 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.279 the history of past energy transitions. You've always had a 317 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:56.799 rebound and at least a nature of things. That's very 318 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.679 very true. Two points maybe on that when we discuss 319 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:05.319 on energy efficiency The point on using digital technologies, which 320 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.960 are modern technologies to manage the energy used, is really 321 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:13.359 a way to prevent rebound effects in energy among inside buildings. 322 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.240 So that's one point I think we should keep in mind. 323 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:20.599 And this is very different from traditional uncontrolled efficiency solutions 324 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.960 which do not prevent you from a remom. But that's 325 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:25.599 a very specific point. I fit. Your question about rebund 326 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.400 is larger than that, and you're right, if you deploy 327 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.279 more generation capacity, well you may have more energy uses. 328 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.759 But this is also a synonym of abundance law. We 329 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.480 feel we live in a period of scarcity, but nothing 330 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.240 prevents us from living in a period of abundance. If 331 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.400 we develop enots energy and clean energy obviously supply the 332 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.119 topic of rebond it's a complicated one. I think there 333 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.440 are technologies that can help you to prevent it on 334 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.119 specific aspects. After the larger question, which is the one 335 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.200 you're raising, is the one of building a society of 336 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:00.599 abundance of energy, and to do that we need to 337 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.319 deploy a lot of energy capacities, and beyond the meter 338 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.160 or behind the meter, we've got a huge reservoir that 339 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.880 we can tap into a new question of residence, which 340 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.279 is also a very good one. You're absolutely right, law, 341 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.079 and if it's not going to be a one hundred 342 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.039 person residience. Now, in some of the examples they give you, 343 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.839 like the JFK Terminal one airport, why did they build it. 344 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:24.559 They did not build it only because they wanted to 345 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:28.200 reduce emissions. They built it because they wanted to increase 346 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:32.079 the resilience of the airport of the terminal in case 347 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.680 of large weather incident. And you know that in these 348 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.880 regions it happens that there are quite a few over winter. 349 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:40.839 The way they see this kind of technology and particularly 350 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.000 generations behind the meter, is a way to increase their 351 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:46.519 residience because by the way they have that, they have 352 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:49.720 some local generation capacity may not work one hundred of 353 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.759 the time, but if they don't, they rely on the 354 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:55.759 power grade and there are incidents on power grids as well, 355 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.039 especially when there are harsh weathers. So actually you could say, 356 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.680 for shots, I'm going to solve one hundred percent of 357 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.119 the issue. No one is saying that, but it's actually 358 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.519 improving the residience of the total system. 359 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.119 Vincent, can I ask you a little bit of a 360 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.759 cheeky question, what we've got in Europe is we've got 361 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.599 a new energy performance directive in the buildings area, and 362 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.799 what this means is that governments across Europe have to 363 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:24.160 go and look at their building stock and decide how 364 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.079 best to decarbonize them. My question to you is, you're 365 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:31.279 the minister in charge of buildings in France. What's your 366 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.839 policy is going to be to actually ensure that we 367 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.359 improve efficiencies in buildings over the next decade? 368 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.119 Thank you, Ah, that's a cheeky question. 369 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:46.720 Or I can answer. I can answer second million bureaucrats. 370 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.559 Let me frame my own self this way. So there 371 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.960 are two things. The first one in French, right, So 372 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.440 it's a good question about the Minister of Francis. I 373 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.279 also live in Boston in the US, and I walk 374 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.160 by the streets on the weekends with my daughters and 375 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.599 my girls, and I look at the new homes being built, 376 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.960 and I'm getting nervous because what I see is that 377 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.359 they're installing a lot of gas boilers. So I have 378 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.359 a first recommendation, which is, when you build a new home, 379 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:14.680 and you build a new building, how come that we 380 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.359 continue to build them with technologies from the twentieth century 381 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.839 that we know that we don't want anymore by twenty fifty, 382 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.000 So are we serious or are we're not serious? So 383 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:24.960 my first thing would be what do we do about 384 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.880 new construction. My subbumn thing is more looking at it 385 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.720 from the standpoint of company corporation which is involved in 386 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.319 the field, and it's a case of Snider Rectrick that 387 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:39.359 it's a case of many others. Sometimes I'm inside meetings 388 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.160 where people discuss about why is it not happening faster, 389 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.920 what's blocking? Why is it that companies are not getting 390 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.000 into this failed and so there's a lot of discussions 391 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.240 and reflection training with government or on what to be 392 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.599 done in terms of incentive, carrot and sticks. Like you 393 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.839 said earlier, the are what the private sector. It is 394 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:59.799 a business case. They need customers. When you start to 395 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:02.480 have customers, you have the private sector that get in 396 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.400 and that invests. And the reality is in many regions 397 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.759 of the world we still don't have that market or 398 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.440 it's still not structure. And so this is probably where 399 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.920 I would could focused rather than you're putting a lot 400 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:16.960 of money on the table, but other focus on how 401 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.359