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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history.
Speaker 5: True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski,
Speaker 5: Good Evening. What do Jack the Ripper, Jesse James, the
Speaker 5: Texas Servant, Girl Annihilator, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
Speaker 5: and Jack the Kisser have in common? They were all
Speaker 5: subjects of true crime newspaper reporting in the eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 5: and now these stories and that of many others, are
Speaker 5: brought together in their original form in a two volume
Speaker 5: set True Crime Chronicles, Serial Killers, Outlaws and Justice, Real
Speaker 5: crime stories from the eighteen hundreds, compiled and commented on
Speaker 5: by New York Times bestselling author and former detective Mike Rothmiller.
Speaker 5: These classic works of journalism resurrect astonishing stories that will
Speaker 5: take the reader on a fascinating journey back in time
Speaker 5: to when these horrific tales mesmerized a nation. Some may
Speaker 5: find these articles and their descriptions of people and crimes
Speaker 5: shocking by today's standards, but they are representative of the
Speaker 5: most colorful true crime stories of the day. True Crime
Speaker 5: Chronicles Volume two include stories about Billy the Kidd, Jesse James,
Speaker 5: the Legendary, Jack the Ripper, Lizzie Halliday, Anna, Marie Swanzigger,
Speaker 5: Jack the Haircutter, Butch Cassidy, and the Sundance Kid, the
Speaker 5: Nebraska Murderer, and many more. Shocking stories follow along as
Speaker 5: these reporters from another century visit the crime scenes, interview witnesses,
Speaker 5: and pen the stories of murder, evil and swift frontier justice.
Speaker 5: The book that we're featuring this evening is True Crime
Speaker 5: Chronicles Volume two, Serial Killers, Outlaws and Justice, Real crime
Speaker 5: stories from the eighteen hundreds, with my special guest journalist
Speaker 5: and author and true crime historian Mike Rothmiller. Welcome back
Speaker 5: to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Mike Rothmiller.
Speaker 4: It's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. This is a fascinating, fascinating book.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about For those that didn't hear the earlier
Speaker 5: interview this month for the volume one, maybe you can
Speaker 5: just repeat or reiterate basically the intention of this and
Speaker 5: the unique format used to convey these incredible stories.
Speaker 4: Sure, a little bit of background on it. I was
Speaker 4: researching another book in various archives, and I kept coming
Speaker 4: across fascinating stories that were written in newspapers regarding serial
Speaker 4: killers and other albumos and so forth, and the way
Speaker 4: they were written. They were very dramatic, very detailed, and
Speaker 4: very grisly in some cases, and they just fascinated me.
Speaker 4: And I thought that was rather interesting because those stories
Speaker 4: mesmerized the country at the time. So I decided to
Speaker 4: bring those forward, resurrect those stories as they were written,
Speaker 4: because I couldn't do a better job describing it. And
Speaker 4: if I did, on some of these serial killers, people
Speaker 4: would say, well, jeez, that that sounds crazy. How do
Speaker 4: you notice, Well, this is from the reporters who were
Speaker 4: there at the scene and attended the trials and the
Speaker 4: lynchings and everything, so it was first hand information. In
Speaker 4: some cases it ends up being witnessed testimony, and it's
Speaker 4: just absolutely fascinating the detail they get into what they
Speaker 4: were able to cover. In what I'm speaking of. Then,
Speaker 4: when I was a detective, there are certain things that
Speaker 4: you told the press, but you held back a lot.
Speaker 4: In these stories, nothing was held back they talked about
Speaker 4: the type of crime, the injuries, They described them in
Speaker 4: great detail, to the victims, They described the weapons used,
Speaker 4: where the bodies were found, how they were found, and
Speaker 4: ones that were mutilated how they're mutilated. So it's a
Speaker 4: fascinating read. It gets into a great deal of detail
Speaker 4: that people just don't read today unless it's in a
Speaker 4: novel somewhere. But you certainly would not read that type
Speaker 4: of information in a newspaper today. So with that in mind,
Speaker 4: I decided to keep the stories as they were written
Speaker 4: and then provide a commentary from my perspective about these
Speaker 4: stories and why they were significant or what made them
Speaker 4: very very strange beyond what was written. And I wrote
Speaker 4: that from a historian and the detective's point of view
Speaker 4: to basically all the stories that are in both the books,
Speaker 4: volume one and volume two.
Speaker 5: Right now, in terms of the contents, you have the intro,
Speaker 5: then you have serial killers, the Other Jacks, the Old West,
Speaker 5: the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln, and you have short
Speaker 5: crime stories. Yeah, so let's start with Let's start with
Speaker 5: and you mentioned that you usually have a commentary here
Speaker 5: before the story or afterwards. You start off with, of course,
Speaker 5: the most infamous true crime story ever and character Jack
Speaker 5: the Ripper. What does give us your commentary that you
Speaker 5: provide for the articles that you present about Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 4: Well, one, I introduced the crime itself because there's some people,
Speaker 4: even though it's very, very famous, they do not know
Speaker 4: about Jack the Ripper, and so I had to provide
Speaker 4: some background about that in the time frame and where
Speaker 4: it was occurring, and what this person was doing, and
Speaker 4: how many basically female prostitutes were rerually murdered and a
Speaker 4: lot of them dismembered by him, and sometimes it's just
Speaker 4: some very strange things that he did to their body.
Speaker 4: So I lay that out. I lay out what happened
Speaker 4: in that area Whitechapel in New York and why a
Speaker 4: pardon me not New York in London, and why it
Speaker 4: was considered a lower class area where there're prostitutes, a
Speaker 4: lot of criminals and so forth. And then I get
Speaker 4: into the issue of people who are identifying various men said,
Speaker 4: I think this guy's Jack the Ripper, and that guy's
Speaker 4: Jack the Ripper. And the first guy they labeled was
Speaker 4: called the leather Apron, who was the first killing. And
Speaker 4: that's because they found a leather apron at one scene
Speaker 4: and they said, well, gee, there must be this s
Speaker 4: guy and so they start calling the leather apron killer.
Speaker 4: So that's background information for people that's very useful. And
Speaker 4: then I get into one of the articles too regarding
Speaker 4: the Chief of Detectives for Scotland Yard who headed up
Speaker 4: the investigation and what he had to say during his
Speaker 4: interview about Jack the Ripper, and ultimately he states, and
Speaker 4: I've been able to verify a lot of it since then,
Speaker 4: that they did in fact capture Jack the Ripper, and
Speaker 4: I talked about it in there, but they didn't have
Speaker 4: enough to convict him in a criminal court. So under
Speaker 4: the power of the Crown, which was the power of
Speaker 4: the Queen, they decided okay, they went to their Secretary
Speaker 4: of State basically and said, this is the guy who's
Speaker 4: been doing it. He's insane, and so with a single
Speaker 4: stroke of a pen, he was put into a mental
Speaker 4: hospital for the criminally insane, and they called it the
Speaker 4: Lunatic Asylum. And so this is where I get into
Speaker 4: and all the stories talk about this who Jack the
Speaker 4: Ripper was, the revelations about him made by the Chief
Speaker 4: of Detectives, and if quite Frankly, if anybody knew about
Speaker 4: Jack the Ripper, it's going to be the chief of
Speaker 4: detectives who handled it at the time, and so his
Speaker 4: interview was in there about the entire story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting. I had never actually read that conclusion
Speaker 5: that they had captured Jack the Ripper and then put
Speaker 5: him in a same asylum. I never read that conclusion.
Speaker 5: And as many Jack the Ripper books have been featured
Speaker 5: on this program.
Speaker 4: So yes, I know, And like I said, since then,
Speaker 4: I have a colleague. We've co written a book that
Speaker 4: will come out in July in London, and we've dug
Speaker 4: up more information confirming it that Jack the Ripper was
Speaker 4: in fact captured by Scotland Yard and put into the
Speaker 4: broad More Lunatic Asylum as they call it. So we're
Speaker 4: going to dig a little bit deeper still and we'll
Speaker 4: probably i think within another few months once there archives
Speaker 4: opened up for people to go and we'll probably be
Speaker 4: able to identify who Jack the Ripper was.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's incredible. You have a section called the Other Jacks.
Speaker 5: What is the other Jacks about?
Speaker 4: Well, the other Jack's that, if anything, that was a
Speaker 4: little lighter part of Jack. And they called several different people,
Speaker 4: and they went through time, but mainly in the East Coast.
Speaker 4: But one was Jack the Haircutter, Jack the Kisser, Jack
Speaker 4: the hugger, and Jack the Cutter, and basically what it
Speaker 4: was during the eighteen hundreds, primarily in New York and
Speaker 4: Washington and some other areas on the East Coast, Jack
Speaker 4: the Haircutter. There were a lot of want to be
Speaker 4: Jack the haircutters once the word got out. But when
Speaker 4: a woman or a girl would be walking down the streets,
Speaker 4: he's got long hair, ponytails. These guys would run up
Speaker 4: to them, grab them and generally with the straight razor scissors,
Speaker 4: cut off their ponytails, keep the ponytails and the long
Speaker 4: hair and run away. And this was not uncommon. A
Speaker 4: lot of copycats going on. So that is Jack the Haircutter,
Speaker 4: and the stories are in there about him. Jack the
Speaker 4: Kisser was just what it says. Once again, there were
Speaker 4: copycats in the same locations and they would ride their
Speaker 4: buggies or a horse that they're walking down the street
Speaker 4: and they'd see a girl or a woman they would
Speaker 4: grab her and then kiss her. And the one guy,
Speaker 4: the main guy, would generally end up with a poem
Speaker 4: he would tell him some poem and then they would
Speaker 4: take off, they would disappear. So that was very popular.
Speaker 4: Jack the Hugger, as it states, these guys would see
Speaker 4: a woman and they would run up to her and
Speaker 4: hug her, and the woman would fight, try to get away.
Speaker 4: They keep hugging her. Then they would let her go
Speaker 4: and they would run away. And that was a very
Speaker 4: popular if you want to say, it was a crime
Speaker 4: in a sense. But sometimes I think a lot of
Speaker 4: these the articles were they were maybe joking, but there
Speaker 4: were copycats. Jack the Cutter was a interesting character who
Speaker 4: did not like long dresses on women that were dragging
Speaker 4: on the ground. So those are primarily in Washington, d c.
Speaker 4: That this occurred. But he would see some moment with
Speaker 4: a long skirt and if it was dragging on the ground,
Speaker 4: he would jump out with a pair of scissors shears.
Speaker 4: He'd run up to them, he'd grab them and he
Speaker 4: would cut their dresses off another six or seven inches
Speaker 4: so they would and drag on the ground. And so
Speaker 4: that was more of a sounds like more of a
Speaker 4: fetish in some bizarre way. So that was Jack the Cutter.
Speaker 4: So when I was doing the research, quite Frankly, I
Speaker 4: didn't know about any of these other Jacks, and I
Speaker 4: thought the stories are so interesting because they all occurred
Speaker 4: around the same period of time, and I just thought
Speaker 4: I had to include them because they were so unusual
Speaker 4: and so different. So that's how all the other Jacks
Speaker 4: ended up being in the book.
Speaker 5: Let's go to a far more incredible story. September eleventh,
Speaker 5: eighteen ninety three, and you have the Courier News and
Speaker 5: the headline A murderous maniac. And for the audience this
Speaker 5: the term maniac is used in these articles all the time,
Speaker 5: it seems. Anyway, this is a crimes charged against Lizzie
Speaker 5: Holliday and a mania. Like Jack the Ripper, she killed
Speaker 5: and mutilated her first husband in same manner as second,
Speaker 5: and then the McQuillan women were murdered through a thirst
Speaker 5: for blood. Tell us what do you have to say
Speaker 5: about Lizzie Halliday and why this story was so compelling.
Speaker 4: Well, Lizzie, well, the primary reason. There are very few
Speaker 4: serial killers who were women through time, generally their man
Speaker 4: and in most cases younger men, so was of interest immediately.
Speaker 4: And then when I started reading the articles about her,
Speaker 4: I realized that she was probably for most of her life,
Speaker 4: she would be considered insane and she just would kill.
Speaker 4: She killed a couple of her husbands, and she would
Speaker 4: kill for a variety of reasons, but truly they were
Speaker 4: never known. And so she was eventually convicted and imprisoned.
Speaker 4: And there was one woman who basically was like a
Speaker 4: warden they call them, and their guards who pretty much
Speaker 4: befriended her and was able to control her because she
Speaker 4: was just really wild. She would attack people for no reason,
Speaker 4: or whatever her reason was, nobody really knew. And so
Speaker 4: when this woman finally told her that she was leaving
Speaker 4: the prison system, Lizzie got upset and just decided to
Speaker 4: go ahead and try to stab her to death in prison,
Speaker 4: and she just attacked her, and then Lizzie ended up
Speaker 4: after she was convicted of these other murders of Sarah
Speaker 4: Quinlan and Eloquent mcquinland. She was the first woman to
Speaker 4: be electrocuted in the United States to receive the death penalty.
Speaker 4: So she was very very strange, very diabolical, and as
Speaker 4: some of the articles pointed out, they said that she
Speaker 4: was the worst woman on earth because they pretty much
Speaker 4: narrowed it down that she killed five people her husband's
Speaker 4: step son, two women friends, and then the nurse in
Speaker 4: the asylum where she was sentenced. So she was very
Speaker 4: very different, very bizarre. And as far as the story
Speaker 4: of very interesting story.
Speaker 5: You include the Texas Servant Girl annihilator eighteen eighty four
Speaker 5: in Austin, Texas and this city in a state of panic,
Speaker 5: and the seven or more women were murdered apparently by
Speaker 5: the serial killer using an axe or a knife. Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit more about this Texas Servant Girl.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in most cases the women were African American, and
Speaker 4: in many cases they were young. And what they were
Speaker 4: was they were for better term, acting as live in maids,
Speaker 4: live in cooks, and so forth, and some wealthy or
Speaker 4: upper class white families. And this guy would come in
Speaker 4: at night when everybody was asleep, and generally speaking killed
Speaker 4: them in their bed with an axe. You would split
Speaker 4: their skulls wide open, and the articles talk about how
Speaker 4: the brains are all over the room and so forth.
Speaker 4: But he would do this, and they believed eventually, and
Speaker 4: all the other resorts said that he was probably an
Speaker 4: African American man, but there weren't quite sure. And so
Speaker 4: he went into This guy went into one room with
Speaker 4: whether he was a copycat or not. And there were
Speaker 4: two women in there, two white girls in the attack
Speaker 4: them in the same way, who'd either cut their throats,
Speaker 4: but generally an axe was used and he would go
Speaker 4: for the head or go for the neck. A few
Speaker 4: times bodies were taken outside of the bedroom where the
Speaker 4: initial attack occurred. He would drag him off, maybe fifty
Speaker 4: sixty hundred yards and then he would just go at
Speaker 4: him with an axe or a knife and leave the body.
Speaker 4: But he was never caught. They had suspicions. One time
Speaker 4: they had a descript of a guy who did attack
Speaker 4: these two girls who were both white, but once again
Speaker 4: they never caught him and he took off. But the
Speaker 4: Texas Servant Girl Annihilator was that's what they called name
Speaker 4: in the newspaper articles, and that's what he did. He
Speaker 4: just annihilated servant girls. And then there was question worried
Speaker 4: because all of a sudden, the murders stopped and they
Speaker 4: start happening in other locations, and they were very concerned
Speaker 4: that this is the Texas Servant Girl Annihilator and he's
Speaker 4: just relocated to another city, and it was reoccurring. Whether
Speaker 4: that's true or not. Nobody knows at this time. It
Speaker 4: may have been the same person and may have been
Speaker 4: a copycat. They just don't know. But a very interesting
Speaker 4: story about a man who used an axe most cases
Speaker 4: and just would brutally, brutally murder people in their bedroom.
Speaker 5: You have a story of Anna Maria zwanziger And born
Speaker 5: in seventeen sixty and beheaded September eighteen eleven for murder.
Speaker 5: And this is she worked in several German homes as
Speaker 5: a housekeeper and cook. What was her preference for people
Speaker 5: she worked with and people she killed.
Speaker 4: Her preference was generally she wanted to work for judges
Speaker 4: and upper middle class people. And her favorite way of
Speaker 4: taking out people was with poison. And so she would
Speaker 4: poison people and they would get very ill and should
Speaker 4: pretend that she's nursing them back to health and so forth.
Speaker 4: A few times that worked, many times the person died.
Speaker 4: And so they were able to check for various poisons
Speaker 4: back then, their various corners around the world, and they
Speaker 4: kept coming of Arsenic was a very favorite poison to
Speaker 4: use them, and they would find it, and they eventually
Speaker 4: convicted her, and as you said, she was executed, but
Speaker 4: she just had a passion for using poison as opposed
Speaker 4: to a knife or a gun or anything else. But
Speaker 4: she was just a very very disturbed and very interesting woman.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, you have a story called the Nebraska Killer.
Speaker 5: What's the most notable characteristic or thing about this killer
Speaker 5: that you noted and you included in this?
Speaker 4: He was very cold and calculating, and when he was arrested,
Speaker 4: they were taking him by train back to Nebraska to
Speaker 4: stand trial, and some reporters got on the train with them,
Speaker 4: and as I said, they would just go ahead and
Speaker 4: conduct interviews, and the police would say, hey, this is great,
Speaker 4: go ahead and talk to the guy. And in most
Speaker 4: cases these people would come out with a confession, say yeah,
Speaker 4: I did this, I did that. But he ended up
Speaker 4: killing six people that they know of and that they
Speaker 4: prosecuted him for. He is only in his early twenties,
Speaker 4: but he was extremely cool and collected when he was
Speaker 4: talking to reporters. But the one thing he was really
Speaker 4: interested in is that there was no spinning in these stories,
Speaker 4: no spinning by the reporters, no embellishment, and no fake news.
Speaker 4: He just wanted the facts to come out about him
Speaker 4: what he did. And if you want to say his reasoning,
Speaker 4: his reasoning for doing it. But he was just a
Speaker 4: very very disturbed into visual once again, and he would
Speaker 4: just matter of fact talk to the reporters, very slow,
Speaker 4: very cunning. And one of the people that he killed
Speaker 4: after he killed this family was a baby, and the
Speaker 4: baby continued to cry, and so he just got mad
Speaker 4: and he killed the baby. And they said, oh, basically,
Speaker 4: why did you kill the babies? Well, it wouldn't shut up,
Speaker 4: kept crying, and so he did that. Then he basically
Speaker 4: dumped the bodies next to the house and cover them
Speaker 4: up and took off. But a very cold calculated character.
Speaker 4: And reading his interview from those reporters, it really gets
Speaker 4: into his mind how he worked. And obviously he was
Speaker 4: a serial killer at that stage. He murdered quite a few.
Speaker 4: And then you just step back and you say, hey,
Speaker 4: this is his logic, this is what he's saying. It
Speaker 4: is very bizarre because you're in these stories. It's actually
Speaker 4: that you're listening to him. You're sitting there as the
Speaker 4: reporter listening to him talk about this and making his
Speaker 4: confession and so forth, and you walk away from going
Speaker 4: this guy was nuts and very deadly, and it just
Speaker 4: it's kind of frightening to a lot of people people
Speaker 4: like that today.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, especially because he wanted only the
Speaker 5: truth to be had by these reporters, to document the truth.
Speaker 5: And yet that's inconsistent with the barbarity of the crimes
Speaker 5: that he did. You would think with someone where would
Speaker 5: be questionable the crime somewhat and he would be worried
Speaker 5: about the perception by the public. But it didn't make
Speaker 5: sense his request that they'd be accurate, especially given the
Speaker 5: again the brutality of these murders, you know, a baby
Speaker 5: and with than iron in the face and crushing skulls.
Speaker 4: Yes, and so when you step back and look said,
Speaker 4: wait a minute, it's how is his brain working and
Speaker 4: what is the logic behind this? Like a lot of
Speaker 4: these serial killers, like Lizzie, she was insane, This guy,
Speaker 4: you can say is insane, but like a lot of them,
Speaker 4: he probably wasn't. And you just wonder, Okay, now he knows,
Speaker 4: or he has to anticipate, he's going to be found guilty,
Speaker 4: he's going to be executed. So why is he so
Speaker 4: concerned about this at this stage and insistent that hey,
Speaker 4: you print the facts, you know, not the nonsense, just
Speaker 4: the facts, and so once again it takes you into
Speaker 4: the mind of a killer and how they thought about
Speaker 4: their situation at the time. And some of these people
Speaker 4: are like this guy. You wouldn't want to meet him
Speaker 4: on a dark night anywhere. You know. He's just like
Speaker 4: the Texas Servant Girl, Nihilator and so forth. Very scary people,
Speaker 4: very brutal, and very dangerous.
Speaker 5: In this section, you still call serial killers. We've covered
Speaker 5: this with an author in January, the Atlanta Ripper, but
Speaker 5: it's worth mentioning again because the incredible nature of these crimes.
Speaker 5: The Atlanta Ripper is named because there is some association
Speaker 5: with Jack the Ripper. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: the incredible Atlanta Ripper.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was basically during the early nineteen it's about
Speaker 4: nineteen ten, somewhere around in nineteen eleven. He would basically
Speaker 4: work like Jack the Ripper did. He would work the
Speaker 4: streets and a lot of times hit alleys, and he
Speaker 4: would attack women, not just prostitutes, but any woman walking
Speaker 4: along of any age. It could be a mother, working
Speaker 4: class woman. And all of his victims were black, and
Speaker 4: basically he would attack them on deserted streets in very
Speaker 4: dark places. He would ambush them. Obviously they wouldn't see
Speaker 4: him coming, and all of them were killed there on
Speaker 4: the scene. A lot of times he would what they're
Speaker 4: expecting that he would use an axe, hand acts or
Speaker 4: hard object and hit them in the head, probably kill
Speaker 4: them outright, if not, certainly cause issues, and then he
Speaker 4: would just go ahead and cut the throat or let
Speaker 4: him bleed out, or behead them. And the murders generally
Speaker 4: always occurred on Saturday night and the bodies were discovered
Speaker 4: on Sunday mornings. So in Atlanta at the time, there
Speaker 4: were loads of men who were arrested on suspicion and
Speaker 4: they were all were let go. And the killer remains
Speaker 4: unknown to this day. Whether it was one person working
Speaker 4: alone or two or what. Nobody knows. But he's just
Speaker 4: another I'm saying he assuming was. He's just another serial
Speaker 4: killer that just vanished and nobody was ever proven to
Speaker 4: be that person. They have it up to at least
Speaker 4: eighteen girls females were killed by him, but they don't
Speaker 4: know if that's a complete number or truly how accurate
Speaker 4: is because a lot of them they just found the
Speaker 4: bodies and they said, well, we think it's him, but
Speaker 4: we really can't be sure, but it sent a panic
Speaker 4: through that entire community, especially for women who were working
Speaker 4: into the evening, whether they were servants in a home
Speaker 4: or at a factory or whatever, and when they were
Speaker 4: going home, especially African American women, they were the targets,
Speaker 4: and so they were terrified at night. And it went
Speaker 4: on for a while until finally he just kind of vanished.
Speaker 5: You talk about the New York Ripper. Excuse me when
Speaker 5: I found most interesting was you talk of the fear
Speaker 5: of Jack the Ripper leaving London and traveling to other
Speaker 5: parts of the world. Yeah, this is what the New
Speaker 5: York Ripper is about. Just tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was an interesting case. It was right after
Speaker 4: a few years after Jack the Ripper was active in
Speaker 4: Whitechapel in London, and they start having some deaths occurring
Speaker 4: of primarily prostitutes who are found nearly killed in the
Speaker 4: same fascist Jack the Ripper and London, and I mean
Speaker 4: their bodies are mutilated. I know there was one that
Speaker 4: the guy absuming the guide removed the woman's intestines and
Speaker 4: coiled them up on a table next to it, removed organs.
Speaker 4: Some of the organs of these people were missing so
Speaker 4: he took time to not only kill them, but to
Speaker 4: dismember them. And by taking the various body parts, you're
Speaker 4: assuming that he's taking a trophy, because I know a
Speaker 4: few of the murders I dealt with as a detective
Speaker 4: that they would take sometimes clothing, sometimes part of the
Speaker 4: body as a souvenir as a reminder of this murder
Speaker 4: they committed. And so what was really sad about that
Speaker 4: there was a guy this thing in a hotel, Middle
Speaker 4: Eastern fellow was not fluent in English, and he was
Speaker 4: basically down the hall from this one woman that was
Speaker 4: found mutilated, and his name was Frenchy, And for some
Speaker 4: reason the detectives, probably because of pressure there getting arrested
Speaker 4: him and he was charged and so forth. But as
Speaker 4: it turned out, and all the information's in here and
Speaker 4: how it happened went down, he was not the murderer.
Speaker 4: But they were just fine with having him go to
Speaker 4: prison and probably be executed. They were thinking in the beginning,
Speaker 4: and he was not the guy. And so what happened
Speaker 4: was there a number of reporters who were at the scene,
Speaker 4: and the detective claimed that there was a blood trail
Speaker 4: leading from that room. In his room and they were
Speaker 4: there right when the detective was and they said, wait
Speaker 4: a minute, there was no blood trail and other things
Speaker 4: that he talked about. The detective it so finally they
Speaker 4: brought this up, and the governor pardoned this man after
Speaker 4: a number of years. And why the detective or detectives
Speaker 4: falsified the information and the evidence to convict this guy,
Speaker 4: You'll just never know. And you know, it's something that's
Speaker 4: horrible because this guy could have been easily executed, and
Speaker 4: even today things like that occur. But the New York Ripper,
Speaker 4: as this guy was known as, just vanished once again.
Speaker 4: Nobody knows who he was.
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Speaker 5: the next section in your book is the Old West,
Speaker 5: and remarkably and incredibly you talk about all of the
Speaker 5: people that we think we know through movies like Butch
Speaker 5: Casting and The Sundance Kid. In nineteen sixty nine, Paul
Speaker 5: Newman and Robert Redford portrayed these outlaws in this feature film.
Speaker 5: You have a commentary for Butch Casting and the Sundance Kid.
Speaker 5: What is that?
Speaker 4: Well, basically, it's their true story. I said, We've seen
Speaker 4: the movies, we've read books, we've heard stories, and in
Speaker 4: most cases they're wrong. Yeah, these guys were outlaws, they
Speaker 4: were doing various things. But what was always interesting is
Speaker 4: that in the movie they were you know, read and
Speaker 4: Newman portrayed these guys. Yeah, they were criminals, but they
Speaker 4: were kind of just fun loving guys. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they were pulling some robberies in this, but they really
Speaker 4: didn't want to hurt anybody. With a romantic twist. Well,
Speaker 4: that's what most people believe, but these articles get into it.
Speaker 4: They weren't fun loving guys. They were roofless criminals, and
Speaker 4: they killed a lot of people. And they're always involved
Speaker 4: in criminal activity for a long time. They had from
Speaker 4: some of the articles they're talking about, how butch Cassidy
Speaker 4: for a better term ran if you want to say,
Speaker 4: a small army in the Rocky Mountains of about five
Speaker 4: hundred outlaws.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then they would move through different areas. But
Speaker 4: then finally there was a secret conference that was conducted
Speaker 4: with the governors of Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and I believe
Speaker 4: was Idaho that they had to stop Cassidy and they
Speaker 4: had for a better term, had to put together their
Speaker 4: group of people to try to hunt them down. And
Speaker 4: so it gets into the whole story about how bad
Speaker 4: these fellows really were, and it goes from for better term,
Speaker 4: from their beginning to their end in Bolivia and basically
Speaker 4: what happened after they were being chased down here in
Speaker 4: the early nineteen hundreds and a lot of their if
Speaker 4: you want to say, their captains of their outlaw gang,
Speaker 4: were captured or killed and kind of went their own way.
Speaker 4: They took off and went to first through Mexico and
Speaker 4: Central America, and they ended up Bolivia and then they
Speaker 4: started up robbing people again, robbing training, stage coaches or
Speaker 4: whatever it was, and they killed several people in Bolivia,
Speaker 4: and then they were running again as they're being chased
Speaker 4: down into Argentina in that area. But it ended up
Speaker 4: in Bolivia where they found them hiding out and they
Speaker 4: had a shootout with some troops military troops, and they
Speaker 4: were killed at the time. But what is interesting is
Speaker 4: that even today a lot of people believe that they
Speaker 4: escaped and that they made it back to the US
Speaker 4: and continued just a quiet life. That is interesting. But
Speaker 4: the Bolivians, the people they soldiers. They killed two guys
Speaker 4: and they buried them down there, and everybody, all historians,
Speaker 4: I say, believe that that is absolutely true that they
Speaker 4: were buried, and the rest of it is just folklore.
Speaker 4: That they made it back to the States and they
Speaker 4: lived quietly ever after. But this sets the record straight
Speaker 4: because these stories were written at the time, and it
Speaker 4: gets into what bad guys they truly were, them and
Speaker 4: their gang, and how long they terrorized a section of
Speaker 4: the country. So it will enlighten a lot of people.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. You include a story called the Manketto executions particularly disturbing.
Speaker 5: Thirty eight Siu Indians hung eighteen sixty two while the
Speaker 5: Civil War in the US was raging. Tell us about
Speaker 5: this story.
Speaker 4: And the cover, yes, really really well, the press coverage
Speaker 4: was nothing. It was literally two sentences and that was it.
Speaker 4: And what happened was around eighteen sixty two, the Sioux
Speaker 4: nation up in the Dakotas for bedroom, They're being invaded
Speaker 4: by a lot of settlers moving in, taking their lands,
Speaker 4: killing off all the game that they survived on. And
Speaker 4: a hunting party was out one day and they rans
Speaker 4: people and they hunting party about five or six Sioux
Speaker 4: and they killed these people, these white people that were there.
Speaker 4: So that got everybody obviously very upset that the Sioux
Speaker 4: were doing this, and the Civil War was raging. It
Speaker 4: wasn't going well for Lincoln and the Union, and so
Speaker 4: Lincoln had to do something, and he was getting pressured
Speaker 4: heavily because this could be the start of another war
Speaker 4: with the Indian nations. And then he was worried that, well,
Speaker 4: if they start fighting the Sioux, they've got to pull
Speaker 4: soldiers away from fighting the Confederates. And then he was
Speaker 4: concerned that the other Indian nations may join the Sioux.
Speaker 4: And quite frankly, at the time, the Plains Indians were
Speaker 4: the best horsemen around and probably the best soldiers around.
Speaker 4: And so he authorized to have the army going there
Speaker 4: and basically try to make a deal and bring these
Speaker 4: people in. And they said, okay, they'll do that. So
Speaker 4: they went out. They kind of negotiated with this one
Speaker 4: chief and he brought in his warriors and they're arrested.
Speaker 4: They brought in basically about four to five hundred. The
Speaker 4: records aren't completely clear on that, but they brought him in,
Speaker 4: they surrendered, and then they decide, okay, we're going to
Speaker 4: put all these guys on trial, all these Sioux Indians.
Speaker 4: So they have a military tribunal. Some of the trials
Speaker 4: of these fellows were about a minute long or thirty seconds.
Speaker 4: Said what's your name? They give the Indian name. They say, fine,
Speaker 4: you're guilty, You're going to die, and the next guy please.
Speaker 4: So they ran through this. They send a letter to
Speaker 4: Abraham Lincoln. This general does with all these Indian names.
Speaker 4: He wants to hang all of them, all of them
Speaker 4: and found guilty. He wants execute all of them. And
Speaker 4: it was over four hundred. Lincoln, look, I said, none
Speaker 4: on a way. We can't just arbitrarily hang you know,
Speaker 4: four to five hundred Sioux Indians, because that will not
Speaker 4: go well in the country, especially within the Indian nation.
Speaker 4: So he narrows it down. He says, well, just give
Speaker 4: me the ones that raped white women. So that came
Speaker 4: down a very short list, just a couple. He says, well,
Speaker 4: that's not good. We've got to execute more to show
Speaker 4: that we're serious about this and to try to dissuade
Speaker 4: them from killing more whites. So he personally selected thirty
Speaker 4: eight names Indian names to hang them. He issued the order.
Speaker 4: It goes up so they have a massive gallows built
Speaker 4: to hang all of them at one time. They bring
Speaker 4: in the soldiers, they surround the area. They start calling
Speaker 4: off the names of the Sioux to take their place
Speaker 4: under the hangman's news, and they call them off, and
Speaker 4: they walk up there and they start singing the death
Speaker 4: song and the death chant, and they hang them all. Boom,
Speaker 4: they're done, thirty eight of them. Well, they find out
Speaker 4: later that two of them that they hung they hung
Speaker 4: by mistake. There were young kids, and it's just that
Speaker 4: when this soldier called them off the names, the kids said, well,
Speaker 4: that's me because he mispronounced it. So they walked up
Speaker 4: and they were hung by mistake. They're completely innocent. So
Speaker 4: they take the bodies, they bury them in the sand
Speaker 4: down by the river. And then some other people going afterwards,
Speaker 4: some whites for souvenirs for body parts, and they take
Speaker 4: bodies to sell them to doctors and to for better
Speaker 4: medical schools so they could perform autopsies on these cadavers
Speaker 4: and just learn from them. So they do that. So
Speaker 4: all these people are killed as the largest mass execution
Speaker 4: in American history. Yet in eighteen sixty three, I think
Speaker 4: it was the Summit County Beacon. They basically had six
Speaker 4: words about it. It's just on the date, thirty six
Speaker 4: Sioux Indians hung in Minnesota. That was it. And then
Speaker 4: in eighteen eighty one there was an article about one
Speaker 4: of the boards or the two by fours or four
Speaker 4: by fours that were used from the gallows to hanged
Speaker 4: Indians that it was being donated to the State University
Speaker 4: of Museum in Saint Paul, and that was a great artifact.
Speaker 4: They're proud to have it. And then later on in
Speaker 4: eighteen ninety there's an article about a guy coming into
Speaker 4: town and he has a scalp from one of the
Speaker 4: Sioux that was hung back then. He got it from
Speaker 4: his brother in law, who is a soldier. So what's
Speaker 4: interesting is that it's the larger mass execution in US history,
Speaker 4: and yet the first article was all of about six words.
Speaker 4: That's it. And that just shows you how Native Americans
Speaker 4: at the time were looked at. I mean, if they
Speaker 4: killed thirty six dogs or something, or cattle, it would
Speaker 4: have probably had the same response in the newspaper. So
Speaker 4: it just takes you back to a time and you
Speaker 4: can understand how Native Americans were looked at at the time,
Speaker 4: and we still had years down the road the Indian Wars.
Speaker 4: But you just look at and say, wow, it's only
Speaker 4: six words. When they hung all these people and two
Speaker 4: of them by mistake, two kids, and that's all a
Speaker 4: warranted in the media. Yes, incredible.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about another person that is immortalized and fictionalized
Speaker 5: and Billy the Kid. Tell us what you found out
Speaker 5: about Billy the Kid that poses the mythology.
Speaker 4: Well, really the true story about him, and a lot
Speaker 4: of it, some of them we've heard about a lot
Speaker 4: of it's, if you want to say, twisted because different
Speaker 4: people didn't have the information or they want to write
Speaker 4: the story of the book in a different fashion. But
Speaker 4: these articles were written at the time. They were written
Speaker 4: by reporters who spoke to some of the people that
Speaker 4: were around him over the years and really talking about
Speaker 4: how many people he killed and how many his gang
Speaker 4: ended up killing, and how ruthless he was, and then
Speaker 4: eventually he was killed. That's the way it's been reported
Speaker 4: in these newspapers too. By Sheriff Pat Garrett. When Billy
Speaker 4: was hiding out at a ranch after he escaped killed to
Speaker 4: law enforced two deputies in town, and he escaped, went
Speaker 4: up to this ranch and they went out and at
Speaker 4: dark snuck upon the house and Garrett went into the
Speaker 4: room and that's when he saw the person he said,
Speaker 4: it was Billy the Kid walk in and that's when
Speaker 4: he shot him. So it gets into what really occurred
Speaker 4: at the time, not what contemporary stories say or television.
Speaker 4: But it gives you a good look at well Pat Garrett,
Speaker 4: the sheriff at the time, and the history of Billy
Speaker 4: the Kid, when he started out and through his life,
Speaker 4: what he did, and how many people he did kill,
Speaker 4: and how ruthefless he was.
Speaker 5: You also debunked the story, or at least you discussed
Speaker 5: the story that even some newspapers spoke about the idea
Speaker 5: that he had escaped and went on to live his
Speaker 5: life somewhere else, and that that Pat Garrett's former friend,
Speaker 5: the sheriff who had shot him apparently just substituted a
Speaker 5: different corpse. It was so you talk about that that story,
Speaker 5: we talked.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what some people start saying is that when
Speaker 4: Billy was shot out of Las Vegas, New Mexico, that
Speaker 4: it really wasn't him, that it was somebody else. And
Speaker 4: Garrett decided to bring this body and say no, this
Speaker 4: is him, because there was a reward then, but also
Speaker 4: for the note to writing he wanted them killed that escape.
Speaker 4: But the odds are it it was once again it
Speaker 4: was Billy the kid. And just setting you know, history
Speaker 4: straight is that this was written at the time and
Speaker 4: these reporters were crawling there and talked to him, talk
Speaker 4: to the people that were out there when he was
Speaker 4: shot and so forth, and so there's no doubt that
Speaker 4: in my mind that Billy was killed.
Speaker 5: Then absolutely. You also talk about Jesse James, and you
Speaker 5: have a particular commentary about Jesse James. Again one of
Speaker 5: those people that one of those outlaws that people believe
Speaker 5: through some movies and thumb stories that they know about
Speaker 5: Jesse James. And you set the record straight, tell us
Speaker 5: about a little bit about Jesse James.
Speaker 4: Yet, Jesse started out really killing people with Quantrell's Raiders
Speaker 4: during the Civil War. He first went there after there
Speaker 4: was killing at his parents ranch and so forth, and
Speaker 4: his brother Frank was already writing with Quantrell's Raiders, and
Speaker 4: so Jesse went one time. He wanted to join this
Speaker 4: to know, you're too young to get out of here.
Speaker 4: He came back later when he was still young and
Speaker 4: while I'm saying, yeah, I'm timber six fifteen sixteen seventeen,
Speaker 4: and he joined Quantrell's Raiders, and they were a band
Speaker 4: affiliated with the Confederacy, and they would raid various cities,
Speaker 4: mainly belong in Kansas in that area, and he bragged
Speaker 4: that he killed, you know, at least thirty six to
Speaker 4: forty people in this one raid in Lawrence, Kansas when
Speaker 4: they went in there, and they basically killed all of
Speaker 4: the men and all the boys in that town, and
Speaker 4: it was approaching about two hundred maybe a little bit
Speaker 4: more than that. And as a result of that, the Confederacy,
Speaker 4: for a better term, pulled their support from Quantrelle because
Speaker 4: they didn't want people just being slaughtered, just to be slaughtered,
Speaker 4: especially boys and so forth and innocent men, and so
Speaker 4: Jesse in that raid claimed he killed thirty six. Probably
Speaker 4: did maybe more, maybe a few less, but it's just
Speaker 4: a matter of he was very, very vicious. And then
Speaker 4: he went on with his brother Frank James and so forth,
Speaker 4: and they formed their own gang and they started pulling
Speaker 4: robberies and so forth, of banks, of stage coaches and
Speaker 4: so forth, because that's what they knew from writing with
Speaker 4: Clontreille that that's what they would do, and finally he was.
Speaker 4: He and this group were so sought after and terrorizing
Speaker 4: that area of the nation that the governor basically was
Speaker 4: hiring people to go out and find him for a
Speaker 4: better term, almost like private detectives and so forth, and
Speaker 4: other criminals, and to eliminate him. And so eventually that's
Speaker 4: exactly what happened. There were a couple of guys who
Speaker 4: were no better than Jesse came to the house as friends.
Speaker 4: He knew him in the past, and when they were
Speaker 4: in the living room chatting, Jesse wanted to straighten a
Speaker 4: picture on the wall and dust it off, and he
Speaker 4: was shot from behind and by one of these friends
Speaker 4: of his, And so eventually they were both, if you
Speaker 4: want to say, and dieted put on trial. It was
Speaker 4: very rapid, it was over quickly. But there's no doubt
Speaker 4: in anybody's mind that the governor knew about this well
Speaker 4: in advance. And these articles talk about this, how he
Speaker 4: knew these two guys and basically was talking about, yeah,
Speaker 4: go out and see if you can get him. But
Speaker 4: then they go into the body of Jesse, and when
Speaker 4: they're describing the body. The reporters or this particular porter
Speaker 4: had a fascination with him and talking about he had
Speaker 4: a magnificent physique and this is when he's laying laid
Speaker 4: out dead, and that he's you know, it's in this
Speaker 4: pride of health and strength, and he is a commanding
Speaker 4: figure and all this sort of stuff. And so even
Speaker 4: then the legend of Jesse James was being built by
Speaker 4: some of the reporters that were there, the way they
Speaker 4: described everything and examining the body and so forth. So
Speaker 4: it's a very interesting story about the history of Jesse
Speaker 4: and Frank James and so forth, and it brings up
Speaker 4: a lot of areas that, excuse me, just are not
Speaker 4: covered in other books or stories, television and so forth.
Speaker 5: It's fascinating that you talk about the tenth thousand dollars
Speaker 5: reward and then the motivation for this Robert and Charles
Speaker 5: to be able to try to kill this person that
Speaker 5: they knew and they hooked up with the detective as
Speaker 5: you write, and said, listen, we know these guys. I've
Speaker 5: known him for four or five years, so they could
Speaker 5: identify them. But they also knew the country, they knew
Speaker 5: the layout, the countryside, and so they figured between them
Speaker 5: that they had to kill him. There was no way
Speaker 5: they were going to take this guy prisoner, so they
Speaker 5: wanted to get close to him. And it was lucky
Speaker 5: that Jesse James needed some people for a bank robbery.
Speaker 5: He hadn't robbed a bank in a while and was
Speaker 5: low on funds, so they gained his trust that way.
Speaker 5: And it's fascinating to as you write that they had
Speaker 5: to wait till his back was turned and he had
Speaker 5: no access to weapons, so to make sure that they
Speaker 5: could kill this person and get that reward.
Speaker 4: And yeah, they were. They were terrified of him. I
Speaker 4: believe that's why they Because there were two of them,
Speaker 4: they could have pulled their guns on him anytime when
Speaker 4: he's standing there the day before or whatever, but they didn't,
Speaker 4: so they waited until he was turned us back they
Speaker 4: shot him. His wife was in another room in the house.
Speaker 4: She ran into that living room aria and realized what happened,
Speaker 4: and these two guys took off. But they went basically
Speaker 4: to the sheriff after that and said, hey, we just
Speaker 4: killed Jesse James and that was pretty much the end
Speaker 4: of it. But in a sense they became heroes. The
Speaker 4: sum and villains to other because a lot of people
Speaker 4: who at the time they were intrigued by Jesse James
Speaker 4: as they were with a lot of other outlaws, and
Speaker 4: especially if they were supporters of the Confederacy, and they
Speaker 4: knew that they were with the Confederacy fighting with them.
Speaker 4: So it's interesting. It brings both sides into play. It
Speaker 4: brings the true horrible outlaw that they were in killers,
Speaker 4: but then you also see the other side of how
Speaker 4: some people and especially the reporters viewed them. Yeah, they
Speaker 4: were criminals, but kind of romantic criminals in a sense.
Speaker 4: So it's it's very interesting the way the stories are written,
Speaker 4: because as I mentioned earlier, they don't hold anything back.
Speaker 4: They talk in detail about the wounds and what went
Speaker 4: on and so forth. So it's just it takes people
Speaker 4: to a different level. Regarding the history of Jesse and
Speaker 4: Frank James.
Speaker 5: You also write that when Jesse was fourteen and his
Speaker 5: older brother was in the Quandtrails, that they wouldn't allow
Speaker 5: them into these into the into the gang. But then
Speaker 5: his stepfather, doctor Samuels, you write a pronounced secessionist. He
Speaker 5: had a visit from the He had the visit from
Speaker 5: these Union soldiers and so they strung him up. Rope
Speaker 5: was produced and strung him up, and he was later
Speaker 5: cut down. But Jesse's mother and sister were imprisoned, and
Speaker 5: so that at fourteen, see as you write, it set
Speaker 5: him off on his murderous future, didn't it.
Speaker 4: Yes, it did. He at that stage he obviously he
Speaker 4: hated the Union more than he had in the past,
Speaker 4: and after he saw a personal attack by the soldiers
Speaker 4: on his family, that was it. He did whatever snapped
Speaker 4: in him or didn't snap her, that was his decision.
Speaker 4: He said, Okay, I am going to go with my
Speaker 4: brother and for better term seek retribution for my family
Speaker 4: on the Union people of the Union at the time
Speaker 4: and not the Confederacy. So yeah, for young boy at
Speaker 4: the time, he was ruthless.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely. You include at the end of this book
Speaker 5: several true crime stories. We don't have time to go
Speaker 5: into them. But what are some of these stories, these articles,
Speaker 5: these headlines, what do they indicate and tell you? And
Speaker 5: why were they included?
Speaker 4: Okay, well, the one I have in there about Lincoln's assassination.
Speaker 4: But in the short stories, they're interesting because some of
Speaker 4: them were now most of them only maybe one hundred
Speaker 4: words are very short, but they get into society at
Speaker 4: the time, what was, if you want to say acceptable,
Speaker 4: what was not acceptable, and how people were to react
Speaker 4: to it. Like there's one I have in there. This
Speaker 4: gal was dating this guy and he was also dating
Speaker 4: another woman, and so he took this other woman out
Speaker 4: for a buggy ride. This other woman she knows they're
Speaker 4: going out, so she gets in a buggy. She goes
Speaker 4: after him, and she catches other shoots and kills both
Speaker 4: of them. So is jealousy at play what you see today.
Speaker 4: And there was one truly interesting story, but it was
Speaker 4: repeated many times in other stories, and that was it
Speaker 4: sounds crazy, but the deadly blue gum negro, which they
Speaker 4: said and what they believe was that if an African
Speaker 4: American had blue gums, his bite was as deadly as
Speaker 4: a rattlesnake. And so I found numerous articles about this
Speaker 4: back then, and I put this one in how they
Speaker 4: want to rest the sky. He bit some people and
Speaker 4: they died afterwards. They said, see that proves that he's
Speaker 4: a blue gum Negroes are as deadly as rattlesnakes. And
Speaker 4: it was folklore that was leave for many, many years
Speaker 4: and as I put in there, here's the story, but
Speaker 4: then also put in there from the Cleveland Clinic about
Speaker 4: human bites, how how they can become badly infected, and
Speaker 4: especially then the no antibiotics. You break the skin with
Speaker 4: no antibiotics, especially from a human bite, there's a chance
Speaker 4: that's going to become infected and then you're going to
Speaker 4: die from the infection. So that was one I found
Speaker 4: very interesting. There's another where typical con men they had
Speaker 4: them back then, where they pull in and they're well dressed.
Speaker 4: They see this guy sitting on his sports basically a rancher,
Speaker 4: and they want to buy it, and they pulled out
Speaker 4: some gold bricks and said, here's what we're going to
Speaker 4: buy it with. So they cut the deal, they get
Speaker 4: some cash in advance, and the guy finds out these
Speaker 4: bricks are not gold. He was scammed. And there's some
Speaker 4: really kind of interesting ones where there's a they found
Speaker 4: his body and they didn't know if it was a
Speaker 4: joke or murder, because it was was all pretty well mutilated,
Speaker 4: but they pretty much determined that it was cadaver from
Speaker 4: a medical school that some guys took out and chopped
Speaker 4: it up and shot it up and dumped it in
Speaker 4: the river. But the most interesting one at the very
Speaker 4: end I closed the book with was a defense of
Speaker 4: a woman in Washington, d C. During the Civil War.
Speaker 4: And she was captured by the Union aiding and a
Speaker 4: bedding acting as a spy in an aid for the Confederacy.
Speaker 4: So each time they'd catch her, they would go and
Speaker 4: that was execution then, and so shortly afterwards the general
Speaker 4: in charge that was holding her would receive a notice
Speaker 4: from Washington, d C. Release her. So this happened several times,
Speaker 4: and obviously was puzzling to this journal because everybody else
Speaker 4: would be hung or shot. Well. As it turned out,
Speaker 4: she was running a brothel and an abortion clinic and
Speaker 4: was in DC, and and so what she did she
Speaker 4: would She was servicing a lot of the politicians, high
Speaker 4: ranking polity maybe Secretary of State, ands of congressman, senators,
Speaker 4: and she was also performing the abortions on their girlfriends.
Speaker 4: And so this is why she kept getting off as
Speaker 4: a Confederate spy. But then she actually shoots somebody, a
Speaker 4: guy she was blackmailing. She gets on a for better
Speaker 4: turn to trolley and she shoots at him. She misses,
Speaker 4: kills the guy next to him and wounds this other one.
Speaker 4: And she goes on trial and she's found not guilty
Speaker 4: of this. And what is interesting is that the what
Speaker 4: got me onto is having been in court many times,
Speaker 4: you know, testifying, is that the defense attorney basically wanted
Speaker 4: her to be found insane because then she would go free.
Speaker 4: And so the question was asked, well, how insane, he said, well,
Speaker 4: just insane enough to get her off, you know, I
Speaker 4: mean it just that attorneys then that's what they do today,
Speaker 4: you know. So, yeah, but the backstory on her is
Speaker 4: truly fascinating. They wrote her entire backstory in.
Speaker 5: There, absolutely the disguises and yeah, just all the people
Speaker 5: she slept with that she blackmailed, and the incredible amount
Speaker 5: of people that she had ties with in Washington at
Speaker 5: that time.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and she was always dressed like a man
Speaker 4: when she was going down to bring different supplies and
Speaker 4: information to the Confederates. So it was truly she's a
Speaker 4: story in herself, you know.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 5: on and talking about True Crime Chronicles Volume two, Serial Killers,
Speaker 5: Outlaws Injustice, Real crime stories from the eighteen hundreds for
Speaker 5: people that might want to take a look at other work.
Speaker 5: Where can they go? And this is a Wild Blue
Speaker 5: Press release and tell us about your upcoming HH Holmes release.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, well to find out more about me and
Speaker 4: my books, they're all available on Amazon, so just go
Speaker 4: to Amazon Books and so forth. And one just came
Speaker 4: out with it's doing really well. Is I obtained the
Speaker 4: if you want to say, written confession, but it's kind
Speaker 4: of a confession and non confession of HH Holmes that
Speaker 4: he wrote while he was in prison awaiting trial and
Speaker 4: he eventually executed for it. But it gets into it's
Speaker 4: absolutely it comes from him. It's his words and they're
Speaker 4: they're in their entirety, and it's just fascinating because it
Speaker 4: takes you inside of that guy's mind and he thought
Speaker 4: that well, he was very intelligent, but he probably thought
Speaker 4: that he could outwit everybody. But was he setting the
Speaker 4: record straight knowing he would die or did he actually
Speaker 4: leave this But if anything, it was his way of
Speaker 4: trying to pass judgment on himself that he was really
Speaker 4: an innocent guy. So that's out. And I said it
Speaker 4: is for a better term his diary about killing people
Speaker 4: and so forth, and why he was truly innocent. So
Speaker 4: it gives another perspective, it goes inside of a serial
Speaker 4: killer's mind.
Speaker 5: That will be fascinating. I'm very very anxious to read
Speaker 5: that and anxious to discuss that with you on the
Speaker 5: program very very soon. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 5: Mike roth Miller for coming on and talking about True
Speaker 5: Crime Chronicles, Volume two, Serial Killers, Outlaws and Justice, Real
Speaker 5: crime stories from the eighteen hundreds. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Mike. You have a great evening.
Speaker 4: Good night, You're welcome. Take care, take care,