WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:07.559 Welcome to another episode of the Ventures and Devils. We're 2 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:12.679 highly competent professionals here. Yeah, so I'm your host Will 3 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:16.039 Button joining me in the studio today, Warren Brod so worn. 4 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:18.359 Hey, thanks for having me back. 5 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:21.719 I know we were saying we're competent tech folks, but 6 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.039 you know, we were discussing before the call, how you 7 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.559 had some MacBook problems. Someone else on, you know, one 8 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:32.439 of our additional hosts had some microphone issues. Was nearing 9 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:36.240 one hundred degrees celsius as far as CPU goes. So, 10 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:38.320 you know, good times all around. 11 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.000 Right, We're doing great. 12 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:43.960 Yeah, So welcome back, Jillian. 13 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:45.399 Happy to have you back on the show. 14 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:47.240 Thanks, I'm happy to be back. 15 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:47.840 Yeah. 16 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.039 Let's see if we can make it through one more 17 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:56.240 recording without any of us dropping out due to technical issues. 18 00:00:57.079 --> 00:00:59.119 It seems like the gods are not in favor of 19 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:00.399 that plan, so. 20 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:01.759 I don't know, we'll see. 21 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:08.000 Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about how 22 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:13.359 to run your DevOps team from a management perspective. You know, 23 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:17.000 based on my experience, most of the time the teams 24 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:19.560 I've worked with have worked off of a ticket queue 25 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:22.799 where tickets come in, you grab them or assign them 26 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:29.840 and you just can you continue working working through the backlog, 27 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.799 and that's worked pretty well. But recently, like really recently, 28 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.079 as of last week, I made the decision to change 29 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.519 my team to working off of epics. And so there's 30 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:44.879 some like some of the background of why I did that. 31 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:51.120 We had a monster backlog Q and some of this 32 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:54.439 stuff is just never going to be a priority, which 33 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:58.760 is not unusual, but it made it hard to find 34 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:04.840 what was is it relevant or what should be should 35 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.680 be getting picked up or actively worked on. And then 36 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.479 my team's also a global team. 37 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:10.520 So. 38 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:16.439 You know, I'm not always around to answer questions or something. 39 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:22.919 So we have specific objectives for the fourth quarter of 40 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:26.719 this year. So I just created epics for each of 41 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:33.919 those each of those objectives. And so now everything that 42 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:38.080 my team work is working on should be either part 43 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.479 of that one of those epics or they should stop 44 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:44.280 working on it and move to something that is on 45 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.439 that epic. And so that's kind of the thought process 46 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:47.039 behind it. 47 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:57.599 Genius, brilliant. We should have thought about this sooner, right, Okay, 48 00:02:57.639 --> 00:02:58.599 thanks for tuning in. 49 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:00.719 I'm sure of that. 50 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:04.199 You know, it's interesting you bring this up because I 51 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:06.599 feel like it's been a theme for a bunch of 52 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:09.520 months now, bringing up how all the teams that we 53 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.599 have in an organization need to be run sort of effectively, 54 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:14.439 and the best way to do that is by doubling 55 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.520 down on things like team topology and focusing on Dora metrics, 56 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:22.680 or having unified alignment via some sort of OKRs and 57 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.759 having users that you collect feedback from and request and 58 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.879 put them in your backlog, et cetera, and then groom 59 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.240 that to focus on whatever your objectives that are going 60 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:35.360 to be. So like, going objective first makes a lot 61 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:35.840 of sense. 62 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.120 I like that idea too, because it creates like context 63 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:44.039 around what you're doing, which I find is very important. 64 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.120 Otherwise it's so easy to get like bobbed down in 65 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.039 the details or this new library or this bug report, 66 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.759 you know, or whatever, and not keep in mind that, hey, 67 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:56.560 we need to you know, prioritize tasks based on what 68 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:59.039 actually needs to be done, and there are a lot 69 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.199 of There are a lot of factors in that besides 70 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.319 technical issues that I think are easy to forget. So 71 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:06.319 I always like the idea of epics because I feel 72 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:10.199 like it incorporates more of the big picture into each 73 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:12.719 one of the tickets as opposed to just here's a 74 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.120 bunch of tickets, go work through them, guys. 75 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:17.839 I mean, I think one of the problems here is 76 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.519 like how do you decide what model should work best 77 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:24.879 for a team, And at least from my perspective, it 78 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.000 comes from what is the identity or core reason that 79 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.680 that team exists? And I think if you're changing the 80 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.720 model from we work on and let's just be clear here, 81 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:35.839 I think what we're saying is there are things that 82 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:37.920 need to be done in the organization and the way 83 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.920 in which they get done is one team who is 84 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.240 not responsible for that thing but needs help to get 85 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.199 that done, creates a ticket so that someone else who 86 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.160 knows how to do that work can actually do it. 87 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:53.120 And it's a very It resembles the support organizational matrix, 88 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.480 where you file a support ticket and someone else goes 89 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:57.600 and works on it. I think in the IT world 90 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.920 it's very common, especially in non tech org organizations, where 91 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:05.480 I need access to Heaven forbid this GIRA instance or 92 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:10.680 project and other technologies, or I need to requisition bare 93 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.279 metal machines or virtual machines for this service project or 94 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.639 whatever that I'm working on. So like I do understand 95 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.879 where that came from, and it does mean that while 96 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.839 maybe that's not the best model for a service oriented organization, 97 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.600 you can imagine even if it were and you decided 98 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.560 to move to EPICS, you're actually saying, we're going to 99 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.560 become something different, and maybe it's the thing that you 100 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.240 always wanted to be. You always wanted to be something different, 101 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:38.319 and now you have a working model that matches how 102 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:40.399 you want the org structure to actually function. 103 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:45.360 Yeah, there were There was a pretty sizable sequence of 104 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:50.439 events that took place to get us to this point, because, 105 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.120 like you said, you know, when we were operating in 106 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:57.759 a support model, someone would file a ticket and say, hey, 107 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.240 I need this, you know, bare metal stints, and I 108 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.720 just don't happen to have those laying around idle. So 109 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.800 it took time and effort to get one up and running. 110 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:13.399 But then meanwhile, the team that opened that ticket was saying, oh, 111 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.639 we're blocked because of DevOps, and so my team looked 112 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:19.920 like shit, It's like, well, we just heard about this 113 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.879 request four hours ago, you know, like, we're not really 114 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:27.759 blocking you. You just didn't ask us early enough. And 115 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:29.959 so then we struggled for a long time to figure 116 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:35.800 out how to get the requests into our team earlier, 117 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:38.680 you know, so we could be ready and do like 118 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.199 a just in time delivery thing to throw out that buzzword, 119 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:48.040 and that didn't work either. But then we had this 120 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.879 input from like the company and the executives and the 121 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.879 senior leadership, like, here's what we're focused on for Q four, 122 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:01.319 this is mission critical for the company. And so each 123 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:06.079 of those translated to different things that the software engineering 124 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:08.160 teams are going to be working on. So I took 125 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.720 those and said, okay, well, if they're building this, they're 126 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.079 actually going to need a bare metal instance or a 127 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.879 Kubernetes cluster or whatever it is. And so I created 128 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:24.319 epics that align with the products that the engineering teams 129 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:28.279 are going to ship, and then the tickets in the 130 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:32.040 epics are the tasks that support that. And now also 131 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.800 there's a side benefit of that, I've got someone on 132 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:40.800 my team who's almost completely dedicated to that team, so 133 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.879 they can go to their scrums and chat with them 134 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.199 on a regular basis and have like this really in depth, 135 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:51.000 long lived conversation so that they're in the loop and 136 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.439 they start hearing about all the things that we still 137 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.120 don't know about earlier in the cycle, and hopefully that 138 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:02.959 is going to result in being to deliver the dependencies 139 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.199 for them in a like a near time fashion. 140 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:07.680 I like that. 141 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:09.959 The biggest takeaway of all this is that doing support 142 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.319 work is like playing telephone in kindergarten, right. 143 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:17.839 I think it's even a little worse. I think it's 144 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:22.480 like eighteenth century mail correspondence, you know, where you break 145 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.959 out the feather quill and the ink and you write 146 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:28.839 it on parchment and then give it to the pony 147 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.439 ex bess writer and they take it to the dock, 148 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:33.879 or it gets put onto a ship and sales across 149 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:35.000 to England. 150 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:36.759 I mean, I think you. 151 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.480 Have a little bit of a benefit there because in 152 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:42.799 those scenarios you can almost ensure that both parties are 153 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.840 somehow communicating in the same language or context. And within 154 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.919 the tech organizations, we have what another team could be 155 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.919 working on could be so based in a contact or 156 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:59.960 jargon that you just don't understand because it's heavily abtracted. 157 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.679 Away you know what you're even doing. 158 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:04.320 So not only is there a confusion of the number 159 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.600 of middle people for that message to get to you, 160 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:10.440 now even understanding what the why is. And I think 161 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:12.159 One of the failure modes that a lot of service 162 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:16.159 based organizations fall into is believing that the fix is 163 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.399 clarity of expectations and communication by creating some sort of 164 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.840 slas like, oh, you need a bare metal machine. We 165 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:24.919 have a line item here that says the SLA is 166 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.159 like five weeks, and it's like you can just write 167 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.360 that down and think that, oh, everyone won't be happy 168 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.399 now now they know exactly how long it takes the 169 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.320 requisition one of these new things. But the reality is 170 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.279 that they of course potentially need it whenever they realize 171 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.639 they need it yea, and realize that they need it 172 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.639 to solve whatever problem that they're currently having, and they 173 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.519 doesn't they haven't necessarily planned out that far. 174 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:46.080 Yeah. 175 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:48.240 I think in addition to that too, that's assuming that 176 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:51.559 they actually ask for the right thing, which a lot 177 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:53.120 of times they don't. You know, a lot of times 178 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.679 the request comes in like hey, we need to deploy 179 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.840 this piece of software we build, and then you get 180 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.080 to look at it too, software and you're like, oh 181 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.639 my dude, this is not a Docker container. Like I 182 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:06.799 don't know what Google Search you typed in, but this 183 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:08.799 is not going to run a Docker container. 184 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.360 I mean that's not even there's quickly a outlived it's 185 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:18.639 usefulness there, and I fear that the lms are now 186 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:23.000 even more effective than Google at returning accurate results, given 187 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.799 what the first few result hits usually are have nothing 188 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:28.240 to do with what you're actually looking for. 189 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:32.320 Yeah, on a bit of a side note there, I 190 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:36.240 think it's Google now that does the AI generated response 191 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:37.879 right at the top of the page when you type 192 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:45.840 it in. Yeah, I found that to be helpful. Not 193 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:47.960 all the time, but there's been a majority of the 194 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.399 time whenever like that has actually been like, oh, yeah, 195 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:52.840 that's what I was looking for, and then I just 196 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.480 close the tab and move on. I close the tab 197 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.399 worn that's something that some people do. 198 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:01.559 Things, I definitely close them. 199 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.879 So, you know, let's let's let the record show that, 200 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.879 you know, I think we're just two different kinds of 201 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.399 people here. Will Because when I started seeing the AI 202 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.440 overview from Google, the first thing I did was I 203 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:17.879 created a style blocker using a block to eliminate that 204 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:20.000 element from my screen. And then I went to the 205 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.919 network tab and found the UURL that Google was using 206 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.519 to get that data, and I blocked it with my 207 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:29.519 browser so that neither the display nor the network requests 208 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.919 are executed for this data because I have no need 209 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:34.759 for it whatsoever. 210 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.919 What if it's actually helpful, though, Yeah. 211 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.960 I guess I'm just going to have to live in backwards. 212 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.879 Reality, to live like a caveman over here with how 213 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:45.120 your AI response is? 214 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:51.159 Okay ran over. 215 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:54.399 Yeah, I don't know. 216 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:58.000 It's been like a pretty even toss for me because 217 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.000 I find most of the time when I'm googling something, 218 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:01.639 it tends to be like something local. 219 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:02.960 Like I was. 220 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.360 I was trying to find out where the address of 221 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.440 the vet was that's like five minutes away from me, 222 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:09.960 and instead I got this like AI response about like 223 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:12.399 all the different reasons why you would need to, you know, 224 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:13.879 take an animal to the vet, and I was like, 225 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:17.480 I already know I have the appointment they're getting a vaccine, 226 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.000 Like I don't, got like I don't need this, and 227 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.360 then I had to scroll like all the way down 228 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:21.159 to just get it. 229 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.799 Was very silly. So anyways, I find it's about fifty 230 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:25.360 to fifty. Sometimes it's helpful. 231 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:33.080 Yeah, that's fair. So what are the uh bringing us 232 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.879 back on topic here? What are the pitfalls to running 233 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:41.600 a deadlops team using epics that I may not be seeing. 234 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.600 Yeah. So I particularly like the book here. 235 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:46.200 I think I use it as one of my previous 236 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:50.279 picks called radical focus. And one of the challenges that 237 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:54.440 definitely comes up is having too much like split focus 238 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.519 on where you're actually going. So the book talks a 239 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:00.559 little bit about how to build the appropriate okayrs, objective 240 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:04.240 and key results for an organization. And one of the 241 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:07.600 problems that can come up is that you'll focus more 242 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.000 on what you believe the business needs right now that's 243 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.559 already been articulated, versus some of these hypothetical bets that 244 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.360 other teams are making, and so it can be tempting 245 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.679 to lean on, hey, you said it right actually in 246 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:25.039 this today that we shouldn't be working on those other things. 247 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.159 And so the reality is that figuring out where the 248 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.080 boundary should be between what you do work on that 249 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.799 isn't defined sometimes called toil, sometimes called unplanned work, and 250 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.360 what has already been defined to be worked on. From 251 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.840 my experience, a good understanding at the team level can 252 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.120 be important, but it also can change over time. Like 253 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:46.440 you can say, oh, there was a lot of unplanned 254 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.559 work in the past that never got done. We're going 255 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:50.799 to radically shift and today we're only going to do 256 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:53.320 planned work. But three months from now in next quarter, 257 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.919 you can say, oh, that's also not healthy. We probably 258 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.279 want like fifty percent of the time should be dedicated 259 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.039 to plan to work, a thirty percent of the time 260 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.360 it can be dedicated to unplanned short just in time 261 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:10.120 work that we can get completed quickly. And measuring these 262 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.120 against each other is important. So one of them is 263 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.080 like keep the lights on our maintenance, which doesn't always 264 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.720 well work itself into an objective and key result, it's 265 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:20.960 sort of done. To have an objective that's like keep 266 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.600 the lights on, so much more to have, like, you know, 267 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.720 we actually want to accomplish something for the business here, 268 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:29.399 So somehow how that can work. Those tasks can work 269 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:33.039 in because fundamentally, from an agile standpoint, plans are great, 270 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:35.399 but we have to know when the plan is wrong 271 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.799 and be able to adjust and still do the work 272 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.960 we want without getting blocked by a mindset or tool 273 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.840 or framework that we've used to help us to get 274 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:45.399 to this point. 275 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.159 Yeah, I guess maybe one thing I can do is 276 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.600 create an additional epic just called unplanned work, and at 277 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:55.120 the end of the quarter, see what fell into that. 278 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.080 Bucket and then adjust from there. 279 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.799 I also imagine it's going to be very different for 280 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.639 different organizations, Like some just sort of by default are 281 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:08.000 moving fast, and I have a lot of unplanned work, 282 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:09.679 so I tend to work more in research. 283 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.720 It's almost all unplanned. There's a few things that I know. 284 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:14.240 Most of the time. 285 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.159 It's like, oh, by the way, I have one hundred 286 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.840 thousand simulations that I need to run yesterday, and I'm like, 287 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:19.960 all right. 288 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:21.399 I guess this is what we're doing. This is what 289 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.919 we're doing today. So I don't know. 290 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.720 I just I would imagine that it's all different, and 291 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.600 I feel like it falls into the uh, what's that quote? 292 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.679 You know, plans are useless, but planning indispensable kind of thing. 293 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.440 Maybe there are some organizations that could really follow the 294 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.840 use of epics and like, you know, properly plan things 295 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:43.000 out and all this kind of stuff. 296 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.720 I mean, it definitely goes along with how not just 297 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.440 the identity of the teams in the org that I mentioned, 298 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.480 but how you're delivering value and that can be mapped 299 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.559 to using the team topologies nomenclature, what's the value stream 300 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:01.360 that your organization is utilizing? Because like you can focus 301 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.679 around that and figure out how do we plan the 302 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.080 work for that value stream and maybe we can't plan 303 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.639 it at all. That value stream is specifically adding value 304 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.919 by doing unplanned work, as Hillion points out, So I 305 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.919 think identifying that is certainly one important aspect, and you 306 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.919 sort of have to decide what is the sort of 307 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.000 work that we'll be doing before we even decide how 308 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:22.080 we do it or what needs to be planned. You know, 309 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.320 what are we responsible for? And I think there's another 310 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.279 potential pitfall here, which is what a lot of what 311 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.799 you're doing is to support other teams, right You're leading 312 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:36.120 platform engineering at the company, so realistically, what are their expectations, 313 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:38.320 you know, coming up and saying I mean, I love 314 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.240 that you went and did this for a couple different reasons. 315 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:42.399 But I think the number one problem I usually hear 316 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.559 from platform engineering leaders is that, oh, our stakeholders will 317 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.759 be incredibly unhappy with us if we force them to 318 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.200 commit to providing us input at the beginning of the 319 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:54.360 quarter so that we can figure out how to best 320 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.759 support them and go forward. I'm like, well, they should 321 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.960 for sure do that, but you should also be more 322 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.320 lenient on handling requests during the quarter as well, but 323 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.519 so there are expectations and understanding as a partner in 324 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.519 what you're delivering, I think is important for sure. 325 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.720 Yeah, Like, I think one of the critical pieces that 326 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:16.359 made this whole thing possible was the mandate from the 327 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.559 executive team saying, this is what we're doing this quarter 328 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.160 without question. No, it's not up for negotiation, it's not 329 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.079 up for debate. This is what we're doing. And that 330 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.680 was a huge piece to making it possible for me 331 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.559 to do this. But even with that, there's, like, you know, 332 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.480 there's always like some uncertainty around that. You know, you 333 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.839 may get like halfway through this project and realize you've 334 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:50.559 got to shift to make it successful. And so one 335 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:55.000 of the other changes I made along with this was 336 00:17:55.279 --> 00:18:00.400 on my team. Every person is the owner of one 337 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:04.640 of the products that we build, and that person and 338 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.519 then they have a backup as well for when they're 339 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.799 sick or vacation or whatever. But one of their responsibilities 340 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:16.839 is at the end of each week, meet with the 341 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.079 team leader or engineering manager that builds that product and say, 342 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:29.279 here's what we did this week, Here's what we think 343 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.119 you're going to need for next week, and then debate 344 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.599 that to get the right get both parties to agree 345 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:39.119 on the deliverables for next week, and then identify blockers, 346 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.960 you know, like we're blocked because you haven't delivered us 347 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.359 a software, or your block because we haven't delivered you 348 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:47.200 the hardware or vice versa, and just call those out 349 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.880 so that they're known blockers. And then that has to 350 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:53.599 be done every week, so that everyone's kind of like 351 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.079 agreeing at a high level to what's happening for a quarter, 352 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.920 but agreeing on a concrete level what's happening next week. 353 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.400 I mean, I think that communication is really critical. 354 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.319 I tried to stay away from synchronous there though in 355 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:07.720 the past. 356 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:08.480 What I found, and it. 357 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.200 Really depends on what your report is, cross team, cross organization, 358 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:15.200 how much the leaders know each other. I found that 359 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.000 a thing that I've been calling flash reports is great. 360 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.319 So on a biweekly cadence, all the leads are responsible 361 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:24.759 for like top two to three critical things that they 362 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.319 want other teams to be aware of that are relevant, 363 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.720 not from the business standpoint and not like I worked 364 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:32.319 on these tickets or we release these features that's not 365 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.480 super important, but like really what they think other teams 366 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:37.680 will want to know or need to know. And then 367 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:42.200 everyone fills out their one slides worth of information and 368 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.519 then it's shared within the entire org so that everyone 369 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:46.160 can sort of read it. 370 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:46.720 If they want. 371 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.839 And included in that is basically what you said already, 372 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.000 what they worked on, what they will potentially work on, 373 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.759 and then maybe blocker if they know dependencies on other 374 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.039 teams that are interesting. And this isn't related to any 375 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.880 specific project or anything. But often I found that in 376 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.759 organizations where you depend on others or they depend on you, 377 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.559 you don't necessarily know what those relationships are all the time. 378 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:12.880 Like it'd be so easy if like, oh, yeah, I 379 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.519 know everything that everyone else is working on and exactly 380 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.759 how we're going to be involved there, But often I 381 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:21.640 need a kicker from them where they say, oh, yeah, 382 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.559 we're working on releasing a new API, and I'm like 383 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:26.960 a new API to an existing service or like a 384 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.920 new service or new does that mean new infrastructure? And 385 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:31.799 like they don't even know the answer that question because 386 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:33.160 they haven't thought about it. But if I'm on a 387 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:35.559 team that's dealing with infrastructure, I'm going to start thinking 388 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:38.480 about it now because it's going to remind me, Oh, 389 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:42.160 how do we do new containers in our organization, Do 390 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.640 we do something, is it all self service for them? 391 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.680 Et cetera, et cetera, depending on whatever that item is. 392 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.359 So in those those high level meetings, how do you 393 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:57.039 coach or give feedback to someone when they're not delivering 394 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.960 what you feel they should be delivering. 395 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.240 So, like outside, I think there's a I think it's 396 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.240 about communication, right, yeah, what what is the expectation for 397 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.000 this team and whatnot? So I would drill part of 398 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.319 it down to the okayrs, are they on progress to 399 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.279 somewhat deliver some part of what they're doing? If the 400 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:22.640 answer is no, then that investigation process may lend itself 401 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.319