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True Murder with your 53 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 54 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:48.120 Good Evening. 55 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:53.199 One day in May nineteen ninety seven, a young couple 56 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.360 on their way to work off a dirt road in 57 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:59.159 the mountains of Colorado, spotted a man dragging a woman's 58 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:03.759 body up a trail. The man fled, leaving behind a bloodied, 59 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:09.039 dying woman. The beautiful wooded area seemed such an incongruous 60 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.080 place for a violent crime that the couple had a 61 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:15.120 hard time believing what they were seeing. Indeed, the investigation 62 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.800 into the death of young street walker Anita Paley would 63 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:21.479 lead from that idyllic spot to the seemy underbelly of 64 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:26.039 Denver and a world of prostitution, drug dealers, and violent criminals, 65 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:28.960 and it would expose the lives of two of that 66 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.800 world's inhabitants, the suspect, Robert Riggan and Anita's friend Joanne Cordova, 67 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.240 a former cop turned crack addict and hooker. In the past, 68 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:43.000 Cordova had submitted to violent sex with Riggan in exchange 69 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.919 for drugs. It was just part of her life on 70 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.120 the mean streets. But when her friend Anita was murdered, 71 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:51.319 Joanne had to make a choice. She could go to 72 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.960 her former colleagues on the police department and tell them 73 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:56.639 what she suspected and put her life in danger as 74 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:59.599 a snitch, or she could look the other way and 75 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.680 let us suspected killer walk free and continue his attacks 76 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:07.240 on women. Rough Trade is more than the recounting of 77 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.520 a murder investigation and prosecution. It's also the story of 78 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.039 two people from the seething criminal underworld of Denver, Colorado, 79 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.079 and how their pass crossed on the streets and in 80 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:21.000 the court room. There's Riggan, who was raised in his 81 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:25.000 own private hell that included rape, incest, and extreme abuse 82 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:29.319 to become a violent sexual predator. And there's Cordoba, who 83 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.720 had to summon the courage and suffer the humiliation in 84 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.600 order to pull herself out of the abyss into which 85 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.079 she had fallen to testify against the man she believed 86 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:43.079 killed her friend, and in doing so she found her 87 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.240 own personal redemption. The book that we're featuring this evening 88 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:52.199 is Rough Trade, a shocking true story of Prostitution, Murder, 89 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:56.120 and Redemption with my special guests, journalist and author and 90 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:59.399 publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome back to the program, and thank 91 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:00.680 you for a GREENI this interview. 92 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:01.959 Steve Jackson. 93 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.319 Well, thanks Dan, it's always a pleasure to be here. 94 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.399 Thank you very much. I hope you didn't have too 95 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:13.079 much trouble. When I last spoke to you. You were 96 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:20.240 involved in a tornado. So it's moving a little bump. 97 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:20.959 In the road. I would say. 98 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:25.079 Yeah, I was in my apartment out here where I 99 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.879 live and got a tornado warning telling me to take cover. 100 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:34.560 Next thing I knew, boom, the apartment's gone. The building 101 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:37.240 I was in is well, it was now condemned. There's 102 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.600 it's on shaky ground. But so anyway, Yeah, it's been 103 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.959 the last couple of weeks moving out of one apartment 104 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.240 and into a new new house and all that sort 105 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.680 of thing. So kind of the unexpected. It's not every 106 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.160 day you think you're going to get wiped out by 107 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:54.439 a tornado and have to move. 108 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.680 No, absolutely not. Let's get to this book. It was. 109 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.399 Published in nineteen ninety nine if I'm not correct, And 110 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:10.160 tell us how you came to this story, and I 111 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:12.240 don't know what this number was, but I know this wasn't. 112 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:12.759 Your first book. 113 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.839 But tell us about which one this was in terms 114 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.920 of how many true crimes you've written, books you've written, 115 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.639 and tell us how you came to this project, to 116 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:23.800 this story. 117 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.959 Well, I believe the book was actually published maybe in 118 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:33.360 two thousand, but yeah, very close into that range there, 119 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.800 And I believe that it's my second. Why I say I 120 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:41.360 believe because you know, many of us were always working 121 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.920 on two or three books that had a time and 122 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:47.319 not stone unturned would come out very quickly on the 123 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:49.959 heels of this one as well. But I believe this 124 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:54.560 is number two after a monster and I came upon it. 125 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:59.920 It was the crime occurred in the county in Colorado, 126 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.959 which I was living at the time. And you know, unfortunately, 127 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.680 there are a lot of murders in the in the 128 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:11.000 United States of one sort or another, and not all 129 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:17.759 of them rise to the necessities to create a book 130 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.160 that might be of interest to people or say something 131 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:25.519 some message, I would hope. But as I received a 132 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.000 call one day from someone saying, you know, you might 133 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.879 really be interested in this case. I've been working in 134 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.800 Denver besides as an author, as a journalist for many 135 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.759 years in the courts, and they said that one of 136 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.079 the star witnesses in the case was a former police 137 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:47.720 officer who was now a prostitute, and she would be 138 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.199 the prosecution's star witness if she managed to survive long 139 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:59.920 enough to be the wit. Well, no, well that's kind 140 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:01.480 of you. Tell us sort of how we got started. 141 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.720 Now, you talked about that county that you were from, 142 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:09.040 and this story involves a couple counties obviously, well much 143 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:12.120 more than that, but especially Jefferson County, and you talked 144 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.920 about also Guilpen County. 145 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.480 If that's the way we pronounced it. And so tell us. 146 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.120 As you open up in the story, you talk about 147 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.079 with a couple of people that were living in Golden Colorado, 148 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:29.600 Jason Sizaby and Amy Johnson. They're both involved in the 149 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:34.799 casino industry in that area and they're on their way 150 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:37.000 on a road. So take us back to, as you 151 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.559 do in the book, to this scene where these two 152 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:44.000 people they're about to be married or their fiance and 153 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.360 ready to be married. So who are these people and 154 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.879 how do they happen upon this basically what ends up 155 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.440 being the crime scene. 156 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:00.720 Well, Jefferson County and Guilpen County are Jason one another 157 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.480 Guiltin's a little farther north and west of Jefferson, and 158 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.960 uh they have a district attorney for Jefferson County actually 159 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:16.600 at the time also handled Guilden County UH prosecutions, and 160 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.080 that's so they had a merged district and that's how 161 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.879 this this crime that happens in Guilpen actually ends up 162 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:26.759 in the Jefferson County courthouse. But that's sort of a 163 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:33.399 legal whatever uh issues and stuff that are there. But anyway, 164 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.840 the the the young couple, UH, they're they're living in 165 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.639 the mountains in Colorado. The gaming industry uh in that 166 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.720 area is up in Blackhawk and Central City, two old 167 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:51.039 mining towns that have sort of undergone some uh changes 168 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:55.080 because of gaming was allowed, and they happened pretty much 169 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.639 ghost towns until that happened, and and so they were 170 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:04.159 experiencing a revival of sorts. And these two happened to 171 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.399 have jobs with the with the casinos and they were 172 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.720 living in a little house up in the mountains and 173 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.039 just happened to be on their way to work one 174 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:19.039 morning driving past down a dirt road, as many of 175 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:22.039 them are in that area toward the city at black 176 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.879 Hawk and and kind of came around the bend and 177 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:30.559 there's an old miners cabin there at that bend in 178 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:35.559 the road. And as they went past, Jason, I guess 179 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.440 he didn't see anything right away he saw the van 180 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.000 actually a blue vand parked by the side of the 181 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.120 road and and parked on the wrong side of the road, 182 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.639 as we would say, you know, the tone of pointing 183 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:51.799 the wrong direction. But his fiance Amy, she was looking 184 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.360 out the side and then suddenly yelled that, you know, 185 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.399 wait a second, I just think I saw somebody hauling 186 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:04.279 a body of a trail. The body was on a 187 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:08.519 sleeping bag, and this whoever it was, was pulling the 188 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.240 bag behind him up a rather rough trail. So it 189 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:17.039 wasn't like somebody's doing it for fun. And Jason at 190 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.639 first didn't believe her, thought, you know, because they went 191 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.080 pretty fast quiet, and thought, you know, she was just misinterpreting. 192 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.440 But she was so insistent that they eventually got to 193 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.240 the end of the road where t bones there, and 194 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.120 and he flipped around and was going to go up 195 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:38.200 and mostly to at the dissatisfy her, you know, tell her, 196 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.480 you know, you you misinterpreted, you didn't see what you saw. 197 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.120 But as they were driving back up the road in 198 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.759 that direction, the blue van he'd seen before came roaring 199 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.360 down the road and passed them, And so they kind 200 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:56.320 of continued on up to the cabin, and as you 201 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.399 noted it, it quickly became the crime scene when they 202 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.200 came upon a young woman who was lying on a 203 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:07.399 sleeping bag on this trail, her head grossly swollen from 204 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:14.360 a skull fracture and bleeding both from her vaginal area 205 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.480 as well as from her head. 206 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.679 Now there was no self service, So what did they do. Well, 207 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.799 I'll just say that they ran next door. Jason ran 208 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.159 next door for help. So tell us they take her 209 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.399 to the hospital. What are the extent of the injuries? 210 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:36.039 Of course, the police are called. 211 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:36.559 What are the. 212 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.799 Extent of the injuries that they can determine immediately at 213 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:41.559 that crime scene? 214 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.159 Right, they life flight are out of there. It's it's 215 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:49.320 pretty far up in the hills and would have taken 216 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.320 an ambulance quite some time to get there. So they 217 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.519 get her out of there. You know, it's obviously she's 218 00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:01.279 got something wrong with her her head, just because it's 219 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:06.519 swollen to the size of essencially of volleyball, basketball or whatever, 220 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:12.159 just grotesquely swollen. And they can tell she's bleeding quite 221 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.480 profusely from her vaginal area just because of the stains 222 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:21.039 on the sleeping bag. So they know she's hurt pretty bad. 223 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:27.000 She does some moaning, but basically there's no point of consciousness, 224 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.519 and she doesn't say anything in particular. She's just very 225 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:39.159 badly hurt. So they take her to the hospital er room. 226 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.399 Now, Jason was pretty observant, and obviously Amy was in 227 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.039 the very first place. But Jason didn't get the entire 228 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.840 license plate. But what part of that license plate and 229 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:55.240 what kind of description did they give police about this 230 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:57.919 person that they saw, What did he see and what 231 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:00.879 could he impart to the officer? And how much of 232 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:02.120 that license fleet did he get? 233 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:09.000 Well, they got the blue van, and I believe as 234 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:12.919 the GMC. It's a little bit back there for me 235 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.159 to remember. Could have been afford to conno line for 236 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:21.200 all I know, but a larger blue van. And and 237 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.679 he did get the first three letters of life plate 238 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:31.000 Colorado generally about six to seven, just depending characters and stuff. 239 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.600 But he got the first three on the on the 240 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.120 van as it went past them. And you know, it 241 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.720 was moving fast. It was going much faster than a 242 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.600 person normally would on a dirt road, and they were 243 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.279 going the other direction, so that there was only a 244 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.120 brief moment to catch it. He didn't get much of 245 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:51.320 a look at the guy inside of the van, other 246 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.759 than noting it was a male, and of course Amy 247 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.840 had seen what she believed was a male pulling the 248 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:00.679 the sleeping bag in the bar. Get the trail. 249 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.200 So now there's an alert out and there's a pretty 250 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.519 observant state trooper, this Frank Cisco, and you talk about 251 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:13.960 he crossed paths with the one. A van turns around, 252 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:18.720 he's in pursuit and there's some dangerous driving going on 253 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:24.440 by this this driver, Cisco has to abandon chase. And 254 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.440 meanwhile they're trying to save this woman's life at the hospital. 255 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.399 Is there any identification to have any idea of who 256 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.080 she is, that she have a purse or anything they 257 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:35.200 have any idea. 258 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.399 They couldn't find anything to identify who she was. She 259 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.440 was just the Jane Doe. They did find a driver's license, 260 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:48.440 but it belonged obviously to an older woman, a woman 261 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:53.080 in her forties, and the girl of the victim was 262 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:57.600 obviously not that old and uh and they had found 263 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:04.679 some uh well, actually that's that's that's a little down 264 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.879 the thing. She she when they get her to the hospital, 265 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.399 they don't have anything on her. They don't actually find 266 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:13.159 any of this other identification until later on when they 267 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:14.360 do find the van. 268 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.919 No, it's as we talked about in the opening, she 269 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:25.879 doesn't She doesn't last very long. Her prospect of her 270 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.919 living wasn't very good. And she didn't survive, did. 271 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:33.240 She, No, she didn't. It was they had a doctor's 272 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.879 working on one on her head, trying to relieve the 273 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.480 pressure of the skull fracture, and she was also, as 274 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:47.600 a noted, and suffered a severe cut to the interior 275 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:53.440 of her vaginal area, and that was had she gled 276 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.960 profusely from that. But it was the mostly the head 277 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:02.200 injury that prevented any sort of you know, even their 278 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.400 heroic measures. And they really did. I mean, they had 279 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.799 two of the best er doctors in Colorado working on her. 280 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.599 Dr nurses and everybody did their best to save this girl, 281 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:15.559 and it just wasn't meant to be. 282 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:21.000 Now, as you go back and forth in the book, 283 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.359 we have this high speed chase that this police are 284 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:29.079 alerted to and he's driving dangerously and he has to 285 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.960 abandon this. The police officer that was alerted was has 286 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.039 to abandon that chase. 287 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:35.640 So what happens. 288 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.759 They find this minivan? And if and when they do, 289 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:40.680 what do they. 290 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:41.119 Find in there? 291 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.559 What kind of clues do they are able to assess 292 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.000 from that evidence they found in the van? 293 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:47.960 Tell us what they find? 294 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.000 Well, they do when once they find the van, it's 295 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.000 abandoned the city of Boulder. Once they do find the van, 296 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.680 they find an identification card for a woman named Joanne Colrdoba, 297 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:10.039 who is obviously older than the victim and uh so 298 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.319 they're not exactly sure where she might be. And of 299 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:16.799 course the fears are that something had happened to her 300 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:23.720 as well. And they find some other identification that there 301 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.440 lets them think that they are looking for a man 302 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:31.759 named Robert, Robert Riggan or Robert Johnson. Goes by several aliases, 303 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.599 so they do find some some clues there. They also 304 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.920 find some blood in the van and uh and and 305 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.960 some articles of clothing and some other things like that. 306 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.640 Now the vent itself, at first we imagine or at 307 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.240 least I conjured up. Okay, this is the torture vent 308 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:55.799 like we have in so many stories, but that's not 309 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.440 the case in this particular case. But so what, how's 310 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.960 that van set up? What to tell us what is 311 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:05.599 in the back? And again do they get any clues 312 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.960 as to the kind of character of the what they 313 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.839 may believe is a killer at that time? From that 314 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.480 looking at that van itself, well. 315 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.640 The van itself, other than the blood between the two 316 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:23.039 seats at the back of it, is pretty much set 317 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.319 up for somebody to live in the van, and it's 318 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.400 very neatly kept. He's got everything in its place and 319 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.920 contained plastic containers with bungee cords to hold everything in 320 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:42.119 place as it drives, and very almost too neat in 321 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.880 some ways. That is, you know, there's nothing out of 322 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.079 place in the van, and the only thing that's different 323 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.279 or at a place, I guess, is the blood between 324 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.519 the seats. 325 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.119 As you do in this book, you investigate our pardon me, 326 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.039 you introduce characters that are important obviously to the story, 327 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.799 and one of those is investigator with the DA's office, 328 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:09.559 which is Jim Burkholter. And this is from Jefferson Counter, 329 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.039 which is a much bigger county and able to assist 330 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.400 and much bigger staff obviously as well and more experience. 331 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.759 So you also include a little bit of the experience 332 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:25.240 that these people have, this high profile experience, will say 333 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.519 in the courts, just to demonstrate where this person is 334 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:34.359 coming from before they experience this. As we're knowing Robert 335 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.759 Riggins Junior. So you do a particular case where you 336 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.880 talk about the case that he was involved in with 337 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:47.519 the disabled man who dismembered his competition. Tell us a 338 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:51.519 little bit about Jim Burke Calter and this one particular 339 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:52.880 story that you include in your book. 340 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:59.200 Well, Jim Burculter was a long time Denver police detective 341 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:04.200 before retiring from the Denver Police departments and beginning to 342 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:09.440 work as an investigator for the Jefferson County District Attorney's office. 343 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.240 Not an uncommon thing, particularly in Colorado, that the district 344 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:19.920 attorney's offices hire former police department police officers or detectives 345 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.799 to work as their investigators. These are investigators who run 346 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:27.799 down things for the district attorneys kind of carry on, 347 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.640 you know, the police share whether Sheriff's office with police 348 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.599 departments do the initial investigation in most of it, but 349 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.839 these investigators kind of they start working the case where 350 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.960 the prosecutors saying, we need to find this, we need 351 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:47.240 to find that. So that's where where Jim comes into 352 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:54.200 play there. But he had a long and varied history 353 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:58.200 as a detective, so it was considered one of Denver's 354 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:03.400 better police detectives and had solved some some pretty outstanding crimes. 355 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.039 But one of them was a guy in a wheelchair 356 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:12.720 who was sort of a love triangle of sorts. And 357 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.799 and yes, he he ended up murdering his his competition 358 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.559 and dismembering him and all these sorts of things, which 359 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:28.880 I guess from a wheelchair makes it doublely, uh, I 360 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:32.200 guess impressive from a murderer's point of view. And I 361 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:33.960 don't know how the rest of us you look like that, 362 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:39.200 But he he went through all the all the things 363 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.599 that many killers do as far as trying to dismember 364 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.759 his victim and get rid of him in various ways 365 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:51.319 that way. But yeah, so that's that's one of one 366 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.359 of a number of great detective stories that Jim has. 367 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:02.440 Yeah. The part of this story that's even more impressive, 368 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.079 I guess is that he was taunted as this disabled 369 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.480 person by the neighborhood kids, young kids, and so to 370 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.119 add to the horror of the crime. He sent some 371 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.359 of the severed body parts to the neighborhood kids to 372 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.160 further taunt them for their taunting. So and so that's 373 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:28.599 where interesting you have Jim Burkhalter comes not so innocent 374 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:33.160 to this case. So what do the police think that 375 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.720 they have and when they discover and the name comes 376 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.599 up Juanne Cordova. Obviously, what happens as a result of 377 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.759 the police looking into who Juanne Kordova is what happens 378 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.440 as a result, Well. 379 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.640 The concern is part of it. I mean, obviously, you 380 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:55.000 have a young woman, she suffered a skull fracture, and 381 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.279 as this guy is trying to holler up a trail 382 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.359 as opposed to taking her some where to you know, 383 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.200 seek help or something like that. It's you start with 384 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:11.400 that it's a crime and a homicide. But the victim 385 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.240 in this case had been cut with a very sharp instrument, 386 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:21.880 very sharp knife or razor blade, very deeply in her vagina. 387 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.200 And of course that seems to you know, that's one 388 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.799 of those things that sets off the alarm bell that 389 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.160 you're you're not just dealing with somebody who gets in 390 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.759 an argument and it whacks somebody on the head with 391 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:39.720 a stick, and and this person has hurt or shoves 392 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.119 her out of a car or or hits her with 393 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:44.480 a car or anything like that. This is somebody who 394 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:49.400 carries it a step further to where he's actually maiming 395 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:54.440 somebody who has already been incapacitated. In that, of course, 396 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:59.279 any police detective sets the the red flags up that 397 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.079 you know, you're deal with somebody who could very well 398 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:07.519 be a serial sexual killer or at least has those 399 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.079 those sort of traits that this is. This is more 400 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:16.799 than just killing. This is somebody who has some anger 401 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:22.119