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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening.
Speaker 4: One day in May nineteen ninety seven, a young couple
Speaker 4: on their way to work off a dirt road in
Speaker 4: the mountains of Colorado, spotted a man dragging a woman's
Speaker 4: body up a trail. The man fled, leaving behind a bloodied,
Speaker 4: dying woman. The beautiful wooded area seemed such an incongruous
Speaker 4: place for a violent crime that the couple had a
Speaker 4: hard time believing what they were seeing. Indeed, the investigation
Speaker 4: into the death of young street walker Anita Paley would
Speaker 4: lead from that idyllic spot to the seemy underbelly of
Speaker 4: Denver and a world of prostitution, drug dealers, and violent criminals,
Speaker 4: and it would expose the lives of two of that
Speaker 4: world's inhabitants, the suspect, Robert Riggan and Anita's friend Joanne Cordova,
Speaker 4: a former cop turned crack addict and hooker. In the past,
Speaker 4: Cordova had submitted to violent sex with Riggan in exchange
Speaker 4: for drugs. It was just part of her life on
Speaker 4: the mean streets. But when her friend Anita was murdered,
Speaker 4: Joanne had to make a choice. She could go to
Speaker 4: her former colleagues on the police department and tell them
Speaker 4: what she suspected and put her life in danger as
Speaker 4: a snitch, or she could look the other way and
Speaker 4: let us suspected killer walk free and continue his attacks
Speaker 4: on women. Rough Trade is more than the recounting of
Speaker 4: a murder investigation and prosecution. It's also the story of
Speaker 4: two people from the seething criminal underworld of Denver, Colorado,
Speaker 4: and how their pass crossed on the streets and in
Speaker 4: the court room. There's Riggan, who was raised in his
Speaker 4: own private hell that included rape, incest, and extreme abuse
Speaker 4: to become a violent sexual predator. And there's Cordoba, who
Speaker 4: had to summon the courage and suffer the humiliation in
Speaker 4: order to pull herself out of the abyss into which
Speaker 4: she had fallen to testify against the man she believed
Speaker 4: killed her friend, and in doing so she found her
Speaker 4: own personal redemption. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 4: is Rough Trade, a shocking true story of Prostitution, Murder,
Speaker 4: and Redemption with my special guests, journalist and author and
Speaker 4: publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 4: you for a GREENI this interview.
Speaker 8: Steve Jackson.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks Dan, it's always a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. I hope you didn't have too
Speaker 4: much trouble. When I last spoke to you. You were
Speaker 4: involved in a tornado. So it's moving a little bump.
Speaker 8: In the road. I would say.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was in my apartment out here where I
Speaker 5: live and got a tornado warning telling me to take cover.
Speaker 5: Next thing I knew, boom, the apartment's gone. The building
Speaker 5: I was in is well, it was now condemned. There's
Speaker 5: it's on shaky ground. But so anyway, Yeah, it's been
Speaker 5: the last couple of weeks moving out of one apartment
Speaker 5: and into a new new house and all that sort
Speaker 5: of thing. So kind of the unexpected. It's not every
Speaker 5: day you think you're going to get wiped out by
Speaker 5: a tornado and have to move.
Speaker 8: No, absolutely not. Let's get to this book. It was.
Speaker 4: Published in nineteen ninety nine if I'm not correct, And
Speaker 4: tell us how you came to this story, and I
Speaker 4: don't know what this number was, but I know this wasn't.
Speaker 8: Your first book.
Speaker 4: But tell us about which one this was in terms
Speaker 4: of how many true crimes you've written, books you've written,
Speaker 4: and tell us how you came to this project, to
Speaker 4: this story.
Speaker 5: Well, I believe the book was actually published maybe in
Speaker 5: two thousand, but yeah, very close into that range there,
Speaker 5: And I believe that it's my second. Why I say I
Speaker 5: believe because you know, many of us were always working
Speaker 5: on two or three books that had a time and
Speaker 5: not stone unturned would come out very quickly on the
Speaker 5: heels of this one as well. But I believe this
Speaker 5: is number two after a monster and I came upon it.
Speaker 5: It was the crime occurred in the county in Colorado,
Speaker 5: which I was living at the time. And you know, unfortunately,
Speaker 5: there are a lot of murders in the in the
Speaker 5: United States of one sort or another, and not all
Speaker 5: of them rise to the necessities to create a book
Speaker 5: that might be of interest to people or say something
Speaker 5: some message, I would hope. But as I received a
Speaker 5: call one day from someone saying, you know, you might
Speaker 5: really be interested in this case. I've been working in
Speaker 5: Denver besides as an author, as a journalist for many
Speaker 5: years in the courts, and they said that one of
Speaker 5: the star witnesses in the case was a former police
Speaker 5: officer who was now a prostitute, and she would be
Speaker 5: the prosecution's star witness if she managed to survive long
Speaker 5: enough to be the wit. Well, no, well that's kind
Speaker 5: of you. Tell us sort of how we got started.
Speaker 4: Now, you talked about that county that you were from,
Speaker 4: and this story involves a couple counties obviously, well much
Speaker 4: more than that, but especially Jefferson County, and you talked
Speaker 4: about also Guilpen County.
Speaker 8: If that's the way we pronounced it. And so tell us.
Speaker 4: As you open up in the story, you talk about
Speaker 4: with a couple of people that were living in Golden Colorado,
Speaker 4: Jason Sizaby and Amy Johnson. They're both involved in the
Speaker 4: casino industry in that area and they're on their way
Speaker 4: on a road. So take us back to, as you
Speaker 4: do in the book, to this scene where these two
Speaker 4: people they're about to be married or their fiance and
Speaker 4: ready to be married. So who are these people and
Speaker 4: how do they happen upon this basically what ends up
Speaker 4: being the crime scene.
Speaker 5: Well, Jefferson County and Guilpen County are Jason one another
Speaker 5: Guiltin's a little farther north and west of Jefferson, and
Speaker 5: uh they have a district attorney for Jefferson County actually
Speaker 5: at the time also handled Guilden County UH prosecutions, and
Speaker 5: that's so they had a merged district and that's how
Speaker 5: this this crime that happens in Guilpen actually ends up
Speaker 5: in the Jefferson County courthouse. But that's sort of a
Speaker 5: legal whatever uh issues and stuff that are there. But anyway,
Speaker 5: the the the young couple, UH, they're they're living in
Speaker 5: the mountains in Colorado. The gaming industry uh in that
Speaker 5: area is up in Blackhawk and Central City, two old
Speaker 5: mining towns that have sort of undergone some uh changes
Speaker 5: because of gaming was allowed, and they happened pretty much
Speaker 5: ghost towns until that happened, and and so they were
Speaker 5: experiencing a revival of sorts. And these two happened to
Speaker 5: have jobs with the with the casinos and they were
Speaker 5: living in a little house up in the mountains and
Speaker 5: just happened to be on their way to work one
Speaker 5: morning driving past down a dirt road, as many of
Speaker 5: them are in that area toward the city at black
Speaker 5: Hawk and and kind of came around the bend and
Speaker 5: there's an old miners cabin there at that bend in
Speaker 5: the road. And as they went past, Jason, I guess
Speaker 5: he didn't see anything right away he saw the van
Speaker 5: actually a blue vand parked by the side of the
Speaker 5: road and and parked on the wrong side of the road,
Speaker 5: as we would say, you know, the tone of pointing
Speaker 5: the wrong direction. But his fiance Amy, she was looking
Speaker 5: out the side and then suddenly yelled that, you know,
Speaker 5: wait a second, I just think I saw somebody hauling
Speaker 5: a body of a trail. The body was on a
Speaker 5: sleeping bag, and this whoever it was, was pulling the
Speaker 5: bag behind him up a rather rough trail. So it
Speaker 5: wasn't like somebody's doing it for fun. And Jason at
Speaker 5: first didn't believe her, thought, you know, because they went
Speaker 5: pretty fast quiet, and thought, you know, she was just misinterpreting.
Speaker 5: But she was so insistent that they eventually got to
Speaker 5: the end of the road where t bones there, and
Speaker 5: and he flipped around and was going to go up
Speaker 5: and mostly to at the dissatisfy her, you know, tell her,
Speaker 5: you know, you you misinterpreted, you didn't see what you saw.
Speaker 5: But as they were driving back up the road in
Speaker 5: that direction, the blue van he'd seen before came roaring
Speaker 5: down the road and passed them, And so they kind
Speaker 5: of continued on up to the cabin, and as you
Speaker 5: noted it, it quickly became the crime scene when they
Speaker 5: came upon a young woman who was lying on a
Speaker 5: sleeping bag on this trail, her head grossly swollen from
Speaker 5: a skull fracture and bleeding both from her vaginal area
Speaker 5: as well as from her head.
Speaker 4: Now there was no self service, So what did they do. Well,
Speaker 4: I'll just say that they ran next door. Jason ran
Speaker 4: next door for help. So tell us they take her
Speaker 4: to the hospital. What are the extent of the injuries?
Speaker 4: Of course, the police are called.
Speaker 8: What are the.
Speaker 4: Extent of the injuries that they can determine immediately at
Speaker 4: that crime scene?
Speaker 5: Right, they life flight are out of there. It's it's
Speaker 5: pretty far up in the hills and would have taken
Speaker 5: an ambulance quite some time to get there. So they
Speaker 5: get her out of there. You know, it's obviously she's
Speaker 5: got something wrong with her her head, just because it's
Speaker 5: swollen to the size of essencially of volleyball, basketball or whatever,
Speaker 5: just grotesquely swollen. And they can tell she's bleeding quite
Speaker 5: profusely from her vaginal area just because of the stains
Speaker 5: on the sleeping bag. So they know she's hurt pretty bad.
Speaker 5: She does some moaning, but basically there's no point of consciousness,
Speaker 5: and she doesn't say anything in particular. She's just very
Speaker 5: badly hurt. So they take her to the hospital er room.
Speaker 4: Now, Jason was pretty observant, and obviously Amy was in
Speaker 4: the very first place. But Jason didn't get the entire
Speaker 4: license plate. But what part of that license plate and
Speaker 4: what kind of description did they give police about this
Speaker 4: person that they saw, What did he see and what
Speaker 4: could he impart to the officer? And how much of
Speaker 4: that license fleet did he get?
Speaker 5: Well, they got the blue van, and I believe as
Speaker 5: the GMC. It's a little bit back there for me
Speaker 5: to remember. Could have been afford to conno line for
Speaker 5: all I know, but a larger blue van. And and
Speaker 5: he did get the first three letters of life plate
Speaker 5: Colorado generally about six to seven, just depending characters and stuff.
Speaker 5: But he got the first three on the on the
Speaker 5: van as it went past them. And you know, it
Speaker 5: was moving fast. It was going much faster than a
Speaker 5: person normally would on a dirt road, and they were
Speaker 5: going the other direction, so that there was only a
Speaker 5: brief moment to catch it. He didn't get much of
Speaker 5: a look at the guy inside of the van, other
Speaker 5: than noting it was a male, and of course Amy
Speaker 5: had seen what she believed was a male pulling the
Speaker 5: the sleeping bag in the bar. Get the trail.
Speaker 4: So now there's an alert out and there's a pretty
Speaker 4: observant state trooper, this Frank Cisco, and you talk about
Speaker 4: he crossed paths with the one. A van turns around,
Speaker 4: he's in pursuit and there's some dangerous driving going on
Speaker 4: by this this driver, Cisco has to abandon chase. And
Speaker 4: meanwhile they're trying to save this woman's life at the hospital.
Speaker 4: Is there any identification to have any idea of who
Speaker 4: she is, that she have a purse or anything they
Speaker 4: have any idea.
Speaker 5: They couldn't find anything to identify who she was. She
Speaker 5: was just the Jane Doe. They did find a driver's license,
Speaker 5: but it belonged obviously to an older woman, a woman
Speaker 5: in her forties, and the girl of the victim was
Speaker 5: obviously not that old and uh and they had found
Speaker 5: some uh well, actually that's that's that's a little down
Speaker 5: the thing. She she when they get her to the hospital,
Speaker 5: they don't have anything on her. They don't actually find
Speaker 5: any of this other identification until later on when they
Speaker 5: do find the van.
Speaker 4: No, it's as we talked about in the opening, she
Speaker 4: doesn't She doesn't last very long. Her prospect of her
Speaker 4: living wasn't very good. And she didn't survive, did.
Speaker 5: She, No, she didn't. It was they had a doctor's
Speaker 5: working on one on her head, trying to relieve the
Speaker 5: pressure of the skull fracture, and she was also, as
Speaker 5: a noted, and suffered a severe cut to the interior
Speaker 5: of her vaginal area, and that was had she gled
Speaker 5: profusely from that. But it was the mostly the head
Speaker 5: injury that prevented any sort of you know, even their
Speaker 5: heroic measures. And they really did. I mean, they had
Speaker 5: two of the best er doctors in Colorado working on her.
Speaker 5: Dr nurses and everybody did their best to save this girl,
Speaker 5: and it just wasn't meant to be.
Speaker 4: Now, as you go back and forth in the book,
Speaker 4: we have this high speed chase that this police are
Speaker 4: alerted to and he's driving dangerously and he has to
Speaker 4: abandon this. The police officer that was alerted was has
Speaker 4: to abandon that chase.
Speaker 8: So what happens.
Speaker 4: They find this minivan? And if and when they do,
Speaker 4: what do they.
Speaker 8: Find in there?
Speaker 4: What kind of clues do they are able to assess
Speaker 4: from that evidence they found in the van?
Speaker 8: Tell us what they find?
Speaker 5: Well, they do when once they find the van, it's
Speaker 5: abandoned the city of Boulder. Once they do find the van,
Speaker 5: they find an identification card for a woman named Joanne Colrdoba,
Speaker 5: who is obviously older than the victim and uh so
Speaker 5: they're not exactly sure where she might be. And of
Speaker 5: course the fears are that something had happened to her
Speaker 5: as well. And they find some other identification that there
Speaker 5: lets them think that they are looking for a man
Speaker 5: named Robert, Robert Riggan or Robert Johnson. Goes by several aliases,
Speaker 5: so they do find some some clues there. They also
Speaker 5: find some blood in the van and uh and and
Speaker 5: some articles of clothing and some other things like that.
Speaker 4: Now the vent itself, at first we imagine or at
Speaker 4: least I conjured up. Okay, this is the torture vent
Speaker 4: like we have in so many stories, but that's not
Speaker 4: the case in this particular case. But so what, how's
Speaker 4: that van set up? What to tell us what is
Speaker 4: in the back? And again do they get any clues
Speaker 4: as to the kind of character of the what they
Speaker 4: may believe is a killer at that time? From that
Speaker 4: looking at that van itself, well.
Speaker 5: The van itself, other than the blood between the two
Speaker 5: seats at the back of it, is pretty much set
Speaker 5: up for somebody to live in the van, and it's
Speaker 5: very neatly kept. He's got everything in its place and
Speaker 5: contained plastic containers with bungee cords to hold everything in
Speaker 5: place as it drives, and very almost too neat in
Speaker 5: some ways. That is, you know, there's nothing out of
Speaker 5: place in the van, and the only thing that's different
Speaker 5: or at a place, I guess, is the blood between
Speaker 5: the seats.
Speaker 4: As you do in this book, you investigate our pardon me,
Speaker 4: you introduce characters that are important obviously to the story,
Speaker 4: and one of those is investigator with the DA's office,
Speaker 4: which is Jim Burkholter. And this is from Jefferson Counter,
Speaker 4: which is a much bigger county and able to assist
Speaker 4: and much bigger staff obviously as well and more experience.
Speaker 4: So you also include a little bit of the experience
Speaker 4: that these people have, this high profile experience, will say
Speaker 4: in the courts, just to demonstrate where this person is
Speaker 4: coming from before they experience this. As we're knowing Robert
Speaker 4: Riggins Junior. So you do a particular case where you
Speaker 4: talk about the case that he was involved in with
Speaker 4: the disabled man who dismembered his competition. Tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about Jim Burke Calter and this one particular
Speaker 4: story that you include in your book.
Speaker 5: Well, Jim Burculter was a long time Denver police detective
Speaker 5: before retiring from the Denver Police departments and beginning to
Speaker 5: work as an investigator for the Jefferson County District Attorney's office.
Speaker 5: Not an uncommon thing, particularly in Colorado, that the district
Speaker 5: attorney's offices hire former police department police officers or detectives
Speaker 5: to work as their investigators. These are investigators who run
Speaker 5: down things for the district attorneys kind of carry on,
Speaker 5: you know, the police share whether Sheriff's office with police
Speaker 5: departments do the initial investigation in most of it, but
Speaker 5: these investigators kind of they start working the case where
Speaker 5: the prosecutors saying, we need to find this, we need
Speaker 5: to find that. So that's where where Jim comes into
Speaker 5: play there. But he had a long and varied history
Speaker 5: as a detective, so it was considered one of Denver's
Speaker 5: better police detectives and had solved some some pretty outstanding crimes.
Speaker 5: But one of them was a guy in a wheelchair
Speaker 5: who was sort of a love triangle of sorts. And
Speaker 5: and yes, he he ended up murdering his his competition
Speaker 5: and dismembering him and all these sorts of things, which
Speaker 5: I guess from a wheelchair makes it doublely, uh, I
Speaker 5: guess impressive from a murderer's point of view. And I
Speaker 5: don't know how the rest of us you look like that,
Speaker 5: But he he went through all the all the things
Speaker 5: that many killers do as far as trying to dismember
Speaker 5: his victim and get rid of him in various ways
Speaker 5: that way. But yeah, so that's that's one of one
Speaker 5: of a number of great detective stories that Jim has.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The part of this story that's even more impressive,
Speaker 4: I guess is that he was taunted as this disabled
Speaker 4: person by the neighborhood kids, young kids, and so to
Speaker 4: add to the horror of the crime. He sent some
Speaker 4: of the severed body parts to the neighborhood kids to
Speaker 4: further taunt them for their taunting. So and so that's
Speaker 4: where interesting you have Jim Burkhalter comes not so innocent
Speaker 4: to this case. So what do the police think that
Speaker 4: they have and when they discover and the name comes
Speaker 4: up Juanne Cordova. Obviously, what happens as a result of
Speaker 4: the police looking into who Juanne Kordova is what happens
Speaker 4: as a result, Well.
Speaker 5: The concern is part of it. I mean, obviously, you
Speaker 5: have a young woman, she suffered a skull fracture, and
Speaker 5: as this guy is trying to holler up a trail
Speaker 5: as opposed to taking her some where to you know,
Speaker 5: seek help or something like that. It's you start with
Speaker 5: that it's a crime and a homicide. But the victim
Speaker 5: in this case had been cut with a very sharp instrument,
Speaker 5: very sharp knife or razor blade, very deeply in her vagina.
Speaker 5: And of course that seems to you know, that's one
Speaker 5: of those things that sets off the alarm bell that
Speaker 5: you're you're not just dealing with somebody who gets in
Speaker 5: an argument and it whacks somebody on the head with
Speaker 5: a stick, and and this person has hurt or shoves
Speaker 5: her out of a car or or hits her with
Speaker 5: a car or anything like that. This is somebody who
Speaker 5: carries it a step further to where he's actually maiming
Speaker 5: somebody who has already been incapacitated. In that, of course,
Speaker 5: any police detective sets the the red flags up that
Speaker 5: you know, you're deal with somebody who could very well
Speaker 5: be a serial sexual killer or at least has those
Speaker 5: those sort of traits that this is. This is more
Speaker 5: than just killing. This is somebody who has some anger
Speaker 5: and some other possibly fantasies and that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: So you start worrying about, you know what else has
Speaker 5: this guy then, So when they find the identification cards
Speaker 5: of Joanne Cordova, they're alarmed about, well, who is this woman?
Speaker 5: He has her card. There's some articles of clothing in
Speaker 5: this van that don't seem to belong to the victim,
Speaker 5: So has he already struck before this? And they're looking
Speaker 5: at somebody who has killed more than one person.
Speaker 4: Now there's another alert police officer named Bruce Norton, and
Speaker 4: in an abandoned van he finds some documents that indicate
Speaker 4: to indicate clearly that the person that they're looking for
Speaker 4: is using various aliases. And there's an address book and
Speaker 4: it doesn't have any area codes listed. But again they
Speaker 4: have to try these phone numbers, and so he tries
Speaker 4: a local area code, doesn't work, and he tries IOWA
Speaker 4: And tell us who he calls and who he thinks
Speaker 4: that it says Dad in the phone book, So this
Speaker 4: is about about the only humorous thing in this book, really,
Speaker 4: But tell us what that call is like and who
Speaker 4: he gets on the line, and what does his father say?
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, And one of the things I really loved
Speaker 5: about this book is that there's a number of detectives
Speaker 5: all kind of working simultaneously, and yet you kind of
Speaker 5: see them. It's almost like a solar system. You know,
Speaker 5: they're all doing their own thing, but they're evolving around
Speaker 5: this one on crime. And there's some great detective work
Speaker 5: and many facets, and this is one of them where
Speaker 5: the guy takes a flyer with the address book and
Speaker 5: and and starts calling and eventually finds that he gets
Speaker 5: the one that says dad and calls this guy and
Speaker 5: it turns out to be a man named Robert Riggins
Speaker 5: and basically they describe, describe this and and the dad says, well,
Speaker 5: it sounds like my son. You know, he's been in
Speaker 5: and out of trouble with the law and and you know,
Speaker 5: so now they have a name and a person and
Speaker 5: a where he's from to go on. Uh and uh,
Speaker 5: so the search becomes for Robert Riggin and junior and
Speaker 5: uh and so it's just another one of those little
Speaker 5: pieces of the puzzles starting to click in this place
Speaker 5: as the detectives work this case.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 4: And what happens to Norton takes this a little bit
Speaker 4: further as well. They look into what they now have
Speaker 4: as a Name's Riggins has got has done time on
Speaker 4: firearm violations and he's been twice arrested for sexual assault,
Speaker 4: but I guess not convicted. And he found they just
Speaker 4: should have been a photo with the US Marshals and
Speaker 4: sure enough there is, so.
Speaker 8: Right away they're on the job here.
Speaker 4: They've got his alias, which is Robert Davis, and right
Speaker 4: away they've got this out for the evening news. They
Speaker 4: don't know who Jane Doe is, but there's an unusual
Speaker 4: tattoo on her foot and they're going to go from there,
Speaker 4: and as you do in the book, we go back.
Speaker 8: To Joanne Cordova.
Speaker 4: So at this time, Jane Doe is dead and they
Speaker 4: have a name. So what's happening with Joanne Cordova at
Speaker 4: this time? What is she doing and how does she
Speaker 4: happen upon hearing about this connection with the person that
Speaker 4: she knows her friend Anita.
Speaker 5: Well, as you said, they've they've kind of got this
Speaker 5: down to a to to a suspect. They have a
Speaker 5: photo of the suspect and under under an alias, but
Speaker 5: they put it on the evening news, and it just
Speaker 5: so happens that Joanne Cordova is watching the evening news
Speaker 5: and it talks about a young woman has been found
Speaker 5: dead and there's a suspect in her murder, and they
Speaker 5: flashes his photo up. And Joanne at this time is
Speaker 5: uh is working as a prostitute. And then Vernon Colfax Avenue,
Speaker 5: which is one of the ceder areas of town, particularly
Speaker 5: particularly at that time, kind of known for prostitution and
Speaker 5: dealing and gangs and violence and and all of this
Speaker 5: sort of thing. And Joanne has met this guy. She says,
Speaker 5: I recognize him as that's Robert Davis or Robert Johnson,
Speaker 5: you know, he he's passing different aliases around it. And
Speaker 5: she had actually gone with him at some point. Basically
Speaker 5: he would buy drugs, crack coach caine for these women
Speaker 5: and and in exchange for for sex, and she had
Speaker 5: gone with him at one point and even traveled with
Speaker 5: him once once up into the mountains, where in Joanne,
Speaker 5: you know, it was sort of a uh, you know,
Speaker 5: he wasn't a bad guy to her. He kind of
Speaker 5: bought her some clothes, he you know, bought her some
Speaker 5: crack cocaine, which to a crack addict is uh is
Speaker 5: pretty much doing everything they want you to do, and
Speaker 5: then took her up to the mountains for what seemed
Speaker 5: to be a was going to be a pleasant little trip.
Speaker 5: So she recognizes him right away and then realizes that
Speaker 5: the Jane Doe that they're talking about must be her
Speaker 5: friend Anita, because the last time she had seen Anita,
Speaker 5: Anita was about to go meet this guy that that
Speaker 5: Joanne knew as Robert Johnson and Robert Davis, and she
Speaker 5: was Anita was going to going to go out with
Speaker 5: the guy. The guy was going to buy her some
Speaker 5: crack and give her some money and Anita was Paley.
Speaker 5: I guess I should say back up a little bit,
Speaker 5: that her friend Anita Paley was going to go meet
Speaker 5: this guy. So that's when she realizes when she sees
Speaker 5: the television these guys, that the dead girl must be
Speaker 5: her friend Anita Paley, and and that the perpetrator is
Speaker 5: this guy Robert Riggins.
Speaker 4: Now, as you do in this book as well, Again
Speaker 4: I hate these words humanize. That's crazy because they're just humans.
Speaker 4: But to at least demystify how someone could go from
Speaker 4: a police officer, and I think this is the big
Speaker 4: Again obviously it's the redemption, but also it's the super
Speaker 4: big contrast and the thing that we really learned from
Speaker 4: this book and how is it really possible? And so
Speaker 4: as you put in the book, and you document the
Speaker 4: incredible reason for her to become a cop and then
Speaker 4: end up on the streets of submitting to violent sex
Speaker 4: and for piece of crack. So tell us what happens
Speaker 4: with Juanne Marie Cordova. She was born in nineteen fifty eight.
Speaker 4: Tell us what happens to her that shapes the way
Speaker 4: she becomes later.
Speaker 5: Well, Joanne uh when she first starts, first starts it's
Speaker 5: it's you know, if you watch the movies, it's somebody
Speaker 5: UH is one thing. They're a police officer and then
Speaker 5: they try to crack the next day they're a prostitutent.
Speaker 5: And that's That's not what happened with Joanne. She it
Speaker 5: was was a long downward spiral and what And originally
Speaker 5: Joanne came from a good home. She was sexually molested
Speaker 5: early on in life by a friend of the family,
Speaker 5: but she came from a good home, good background, good values,
Speaker 5: and was a you know, good student. And she married young,
Speaker 5: had had a child young with her her husband, and
Speaker 5: they married too young. They were right out of high school,
Speaker 5: and eventually that would split. But Joanne met a UH
Speaker 5: at Denver police off or police detective. And this guy
Speaker 5: was kind of older and had a lot of money
Speaker 5: for some reason. You know, he's just a police detective
Speaker 5: and and kind of winder and dinder, and you know,
Speaker 5: he was married. But you know, he gave her the
Speaker 5: lines about you know, he's the wife that doesn't understand him,
Speaker 5: and all these sorts of things, and eventually she starts
Speaker 5: having an affair with him, and eventually they end up
Speaker 5: as a couple. But this this plea other police detective was,
Speaker 5: you know, he ran a sort of a moonlighting security
Speaker 5: uh company, and and did a number of things that
Speaker 5: were pretty nefarious and not above board. And and he
Speaker 5: would convince Joanne that, you know, it's it's okay, everybody
Speaker 5: does it that sort of thing, and and you know,
Speaker 5: we can all look at what other people do and
Speaker 5: and say, well, I would never do that, and I
Speaker 5: would never do that. But you know, until you been
Speaker 5: in that situation, I'm not sure how many people know
Speaker 5: what they would do. But Joanne, you know, eventually convinces her.
Speaker 5: She works for him for a while in this security company,
Speaker 5: but eventually convinces her that she'd be a good police officer.
Speaker 5: And so Joanne actually appy too and went to the
Speaker 5: police academy and got through the police academy and all
Speaker 5: these sorts of things. Now she wanted to go on
Speaker 5: vacation with her lover police detective and and so she
Speaker 5: actually cheated a little bit and had her sister fill
Speaker 5: out one of the forums on one of the tests,
Speaker 5: and so you know, that wasn't obviously wasn't right. And
Speaker 5: eventually all that sort of stuff would come back to
Speaker 5: haunt Joanne when she broke up with her her lover
Speaker 5: and one railway or another, and I think we all
Speaker 5: probably know what happened, and she ended up being the
Speaker 5: police find out that, you know, her sister took this
Speaker 5: one test. Even though Joanne up to that point had
Speaker 5: been an exemplary police officer, had been on patrol and
Speaker 5: worked for a while and had commendations and all these
Speaker 5: sorts of things, but you know, a past mistake came
Speaker 5: back to haunt her, and she eventually ended up having
Speaker 5: to resign from the force. And I think it's one
Speaker 5: of those things in life where you know, you find
Speaker 5: something you like to do and would be good at,
Speaker 5: and but you have made a mistake, and now you've
Speaker 5: got to pay for it, and suddenly what do you have. Well,
Speaker 5: So she worked for a while after she left the
Speaker 5: police department, various jobs, had various successes, kind of fell
Speaker 5: in with some people who did a lot of partying,
Speaker 5: and at that time, drugs and cocaine and particularly crack
Speaker 5: cocaine where sort of new on the scene, and she
Speaker 5: got into smoking crack cocaine. And yeah, I mean this
Speaker 5: is we're talking a period of years. I'm sort of
Speaker 5: doing a condensed version here, but a period of years
Speaker 5: she starts using crack cocaine until the crack cocaine, the
Speaker 5: addiction to it starts to overcome her reasons and reasoning
Speaker 5: and her morals and her ethics, and and you know,
Speaker 5: long story short is in the end she to get
Speaker 5: crack more crack. She can't hold a job because she's
Speaker 5: a drug addict. At this point, she starts working working
Speaker 5: as a prostitute, which is I think, I forget what
Speaker 5: percentages are, but the number of women who work as
Speaker 5: prostitutes who are also addicted to drugs of one sort
Speaker 5: or not are is extremely high. And so that when
Speaker 5: we catch up to the story that's Joanne, she it's
Speaker 5: many years down the line from when she is a
Speaker 5: police officer and she's obviously spiral downhill to where she's
Speaker 5: a prostitute on a streets of Denver and telling herself
Speaker 5: for crack cocaine.
Speaker 4: She falls even further because she has children and she
Speaker 4: has ends up in prison. She might think she's going
Speaker 4: to get probation. She got four years, survived that and
Speaker 4: then went clean, and you said, as you document, she
Speaker 4: was cleaned for ten months and then she had a
Speaker 4: relapse and then a year after that relapse, she talked
Speaker 4: about she was paroled in nineteen ninety five. A year later,
Speaker 4: in May nineteen ninety seven, she was approached by a
Speaker 4: man in a blue mini van and his name was
Speaker 4: Bob Davis.
Speaker 8: So we get back to you get back to this
Speaker 8: where there's.
Speaker 4: Bob Davis is And when Joanne Courtover encounters Bob Davis,
Speaker 4: what's the situation? He has a woman with him, what
Speaker 4: does he say? What is the situation that you describe
Speaker 4: in the book where they meet mother.
Speaker 5: The Bob Davis is driving, he does have another woman
Speaker 5: in the van, and she's another hooker in that part
Speaker 5: of Denver, and they see Joanne on the streets. And
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's pretty understood that if you that
Speaker 5: the hookers in that part of Denver are probably if
Speaker 5: they aren't doing crack, they know where to find it.
Speaker 5: So basically he says, hey, do you know where we
Speaker 5: could find any crack? And Joanne, of course is working,
Speaker 5: working the odds and figuring, well, if I tell him
Speaker 5: I know where to find some crack, I'll probably get
Speaker 5: some crack out of this myself. And so and that's
Speaker 5: what happens is that they go to one of her
Speaker 5: dealers and find some crack and they all get high,
Speaker 5: and that's the last she's that's still last. That day
Speaker 5: she sees of Robert Davis and he tells her that
Speaker 5: the woman with him is his wife. And she knows better.
Speaker 5: She you know, figures this is just another hooker. But
Speaker 5: you know, they're all all these guys at the hookers.
Speaker 5: Some of them want to pretend they're married to the hooker,
Speaker 5: some of them want to you know, they all have
Speaker 5: their their fetishes and that sort of thing. So she
Speaker 5: doesn't really care what he considers this girl. If he
Speaker 5: wants to state it's my wife, that's his business. And
Speaker 5: all she really cares about is getting the drug.
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Speaker 4: Now she doesn't know who this Robert Davis Bob Davis is. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: it's Robert Riggins Junior. And you talk about in the
Speaker 4: book about this guy's very, very twisted upbringing. So let's
Speaker 4: as you do. Let's divert a little bit to go
Speaker 4: where his mother, Vernice and her kidney stones and the
Speaker 4: abuse that he tell us a little bit again you'll
Speaker 4: have to condense it, but a little bit of the
Speaker 4: strange and twisted upbringing of Robert Riggins Jr.
Speaker 5: Well, this is this is one of those things where
Speaker 5: I think I noticed in this book and some other books,
Speaker 5: is that you know, sometimes we create our own monsters.
Speaker 5: You know, there's it doesn't excuse excuse the the crimes
Speaker 5: somebody like Robert Riggan or anybody else one of these
Speaker 5: type of guys does, but it certainly gives us a
Speaker 5: reason why they turn out. But Robert Reagan had probably
Speaker 5: as bad as childhood as I can imagine his Uh,
Speaker 5: I mean, there's so much incest in his family and
Speaker 5: his brothers or his uncles or you know, are Uh
Speaker 5: it's who's who's fathered what child through his mother or
Speaker 5: his sisters or or anything else, and is just sort
Speaker 5: of a grab bag of of who was who and
Speaker 5: and how are they related, you know, and plus the
Speaker 5: sexual perversions, uh, you know, the the his father drilling
Speaker 5: holes in the walls so we can watch his own
Speaker 5: daughter's bathe and uh, it's it's just a horror story
Speaker 5: that you would have a hard time believing in some
Speaker 5: ways if you didn't hear it or or see the
Speaker 5: facts of it. But basically that's that's the sort of
Speaker 5: landscape he grew up in, which is a landscape of
Speaker 5: sexual perversion and incests and sexual abuse, and so that's
Speaker 5: that's where Robert Riggan comes from, and you sort of
Speaker 5: start to understand that some child raised that way can't
Speaker 5: possibly have a normal outlook on how people are supposed
Speaker 5: to be a.
Speaker 4: As you point out in one example is that there
Speaker 4: was a pastor Keys came over to discuss with the
Speaker 4: family just there was a rumor that Robert was abusing
Speaker 4: his step like, Robert was abusing his step granddaughter Teresa,
Speaker 4: and the mother, Vernie, said, listen, the problem is not
Speaker 4: is not my husband, it's Teresa. So it just showed
Speaker 4: you the mentality without any further explanation of where that
Speaker 4: As you describe a house full of incest and brothers
Speaker 4: and sisters born from relationships she had with her brother.
Speaker 4: It is a very bizarre upbringing. But what's also very
Speaker 4: interesting for the time in the seventies is that he
Speaker 4: was there was some medical potential intervention here in the
Speaker 4: second grade. He was burnt with this gasoline was apparently
Speaker 4: an accident from his father, who'd just added to again
Speaker 4: his trauma and the torment for the scar the terrible
Speaker 4: scars that he had at school. But he also was
Speaker 4: diagnosed as depressed, and he also had this a thing
Speaker 4: that was involved with his bowel movements. So maybe you
Speaker 4: can explain also this the potential for psychiatric intervention. But
Speaker 4: at least what they did see at that time and
Speaker 4: what they did report.
Speaker 5: Pretty early on, they actually start noting that he's got
Speaker 5: probably the bowel movement is when he get frightened or
Speaker 5: upset or whatever, he loses controls of his bowels. And
Speaker 5: you know, as a child, you can imagine what that
Speaker 5: would be like in school, especially after he gets burned
Speaker 5: and starts in these scarred looking and and all these
Speaker 5: sorts of things, and comes from the household he does, so, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, suddenly he's also dealing with that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: And then you know it's it's uh, you you you
Speaker 5: have this child who is burned, who is going through
Speaker 5: this sexual especially perverted household, who doesn't understand any of
Speaker 5: the mores of normal society or how you're supposed to relate.
Speaker 5: And they they did have some psychiatric intervention or or
Speaker 5: could have had and there were, but unfortunately both the parents,
Speaker 5: uh you know who wouldn't take him to his counseling.
Speaker 5: And then you you see sort of a favure of
Speaker 5: of child protective services. I mean, if you know, I
Speaker 5: I know, we sometimes criticized child protects of services as
Speaker 5: overstepping their bounds and and all these sorts of things.
Speaker 5: And but in this case, there was a child left
Speaker 5: in a household that was so obviously just you know,
Speaker 5: beyond the pale of of of these sorts of things
Speaker 5: that you you keep for. As I was watching his trial,
Speaker 5: I kept her and hearing this part of it. During
Speaker 5: the the sentencing phase, I kept wondering, is like, how
Speaker 5: did somebody not just take this kid out of the situation?
Speaker 5: Or in all the kids, you know, they were just
Speaker 5: left there? And uh and once again, and sometimes we
Speaker 5: create our own monsters. Is there is there any any
Speaker 5: doubt that this boy would have turned out to ye?
Speaker 5: I mean, I think the greater surprise would have been
Speaker 5: if a Robert Rigan had turned into a normal, productive
Speaker 5: human being, then that he turned into a killer.
Speaker 8: Right, Well, let's get back to the other again.
Speaker 4: What would seem like a trajectory that would be poised
Speaker 4: for success. This Duanne Cordova had everything going for her.
Speaker 4: She did have certainly some incredible setbacks with this lieutenant.
Speaker 4: This that was incredible double cross where he informed on
Speaker 4: her as revenge for breaking up with him. Essentially meanwhile,
Speaker 4: he was not only having an affair with his wife,
Speaker 4: but a couple other women as well. So she had
Speaker 4: a lot of incredible bad luck and like you say,
Speaker 4: a ten year descent into where she's at that at
Speaker 4: this time that she's on the street submitting to violent
Speaker 4: sex with this Riggins guy.
Speaker 8: Ah.
Speaker 4: But there's also you add another story as well to this,
Speaker 4: is that there's another woman named Johnson that has an
Speaker 4: experience with Riggins as well. Just to talk about the experience.
Speaker 4: So tell us about this woman named Johnson and what
Speaker 4: her experience is with Riggins and what he tells her.
Speaker 5: Well, it's it's hers is sort of a h You
Speaker 5: see this pattern over and over with with Riggan is
Speaker 5: that he he sort of wants to live this fantasy
Speaker 5: of you know, he both both both with he actually
Speaker 5: has a couple of wives and and but also women
Speaker 5: he meets later on that he lives this sort of
Speaker 5: fantasy of you know, the normal guy and very gracious
Speaker 5: and good manners and all these sorts of things and
Speaker 5: everything a girl could want. But he snaps, he gets violente.
Speaker 5: He likes rough sex. He treats women as it's been
Speaker 5: basically the only way he really understands how to treat him,
Speaker 5: which is to you know, basically act out rape fantasy
Speaker 5: and very controlling.
Speaker 4: So to add to Joanne Cordova, she understands what she's
Speaker 4: in store for in terms of with Riggins, and yet
Speaker 4: still submits to that. But what is her experience that
Speaker 4: she despite all that you know, lure and also that
Speaker 4: she needs this drug. There is a time when she
Speaker 4: sort of has some instincts and says, listen, I'll be
Speaker 4: back in a couple hours. And that's how we get
Speaker 4: to the point where she has her clothes and events.
Speaker 4: So explain how that happens, because this is really an
Speaker 4: important part of this and this story is those clothes
Speaker 4: and he does reactions to those clothes. Joannes the police.
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit how that happens.
Speaker 5: Well, for when when Joanne meets Robert Riggan and uh,
Speaker 5: you know, at first he's he's He doesn't even mana
Speaker 5: sex right away. He buys drugs, they go for drives.
Speaker 5: He takes her shopping, of course, he shoppeds most everything.
Speaker 5: He's kind of a better at criminal in many many
Speaker 5: other ways, but he uh, you know, she kind of
Speaker 5: lets herself the word into this idea of you know,
Speaker 5: she's being treated nice by a guy. Again, he's not
Speaker 5: treating her like a prostitute. He's not doing this sort
Speaker 5: of thing and and that sort of thing. And and
Speaker 5: then he wants to go h for a a ride
Speaker 5: up to the mountains to his favorite place. And they
Speaker 5: go up to the mountains and they find this miners
Speaker 5: cabin and take a little hike up there. She kinna
Speaker 5: takes a nap and stuff, and and then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden he changes. He wants his sex and isn't
Speaker 5: one just sex. He wants rough, rough rape type sex.
Speaker 5: He wants to inflict pain. He it's not a pleasant
Speaker 5: experience and it frightens her. But Joanna has also been
Speaker 5: at this for a while. You know, she's run into
Speaker 5: other guys who uh, you know, get rough for violence.
Speaker 5: You know, it's not pretty woman out there. When when
Speaker 5: you're talking about women on the streets and and meeting
Speaker 5: meeting guys. It's you, you know, you get with you
Speaker 5: what what comes your way sometimes and sometimes you can't
Speaker 5: always see it. So she basically has this guy. She's
Speaker 5: now realizes that Robert Davis is a dangerous guy that
Speaker 5: his you know he's and she manages to talk him down.
Speaker 5: You know, she submits to what he wants because she
Speaker 5: knows to not submit to what he wants could be
Speaker 5: very dangerous. So she talks him down and manages to
Speaker 5: escape and and you know, has to leave behind the
Speaker 5: clothing that he bought her at at various things, which
Speaker 5: is a big deal to her. She didn't have any money,
Speaker 5: she didn't have money to go buy nice things, and
Speaker 5: he'd bought her some nice clothes and these sorts of things.
Speaker 5: So she has to basically leave it in the van,
Speaker 5: leave all this stuff in the van and tell him, oh,
Speaker 5: I'll see it be later. But basically she was just
Speaker 5: getting away from it. And of course we'll lead to
Speaker 5: the point where then it's Anita Paley, who has does
Speaker 5: not have this kind of experience who you know, he
Speaker 5: he he wants somebody else. I Needa volunteers to be
Speaker 5: the guy. The girl that goes to him. And but
Speaker 5: and as she's leaving that day, I maybe jumping forward
Speaker 5: a little bit, but Joanne says, hey, would you get
Speaker 5: my clothes from the van that he bought me in?
Speaker 5: And Anita says, sure, no, no problem, and happily goes
Speaker 5: off with this guy because she would just once crack.
Speaker 5: She's newly addicted, she's new to the whole idea of prostitution.
Speaker 5: And so it's it's it's the unfortunate part is the
Speaker 5: fortunate part is Joanne had the street sense to get
Speaker 5: away from somebody who was very dangerous, but Anita, Nita
Speaker 5: did not.
Speaker 4: Now we talk about where you talk about that eventually,
Speaker 4: and then we're talking about again in early nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 4: and do you just say as well. Interesting footnote is
Speaker 4: that five months earlier, December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six, Boulder,
Speaker 4: Colorado really gets put on the map forever and ever
Speaker 4: with their thrust into the national spotlight with the murder
Speaker 4: of John Benet Ramsey, six year old. So five months later,
Speaker 4: officers Vicki Brennanshan and Curtis Johnson Respont respond to a
Speaker 4: report that maybe there's a suspect and a guy carrying binoculars,
Speaker 4: so I'll get you to take it from there. They
Speaker 4: stop a guy gives them an alias. What happens with
Speaker 4: these two officers and Robert Riggins.
Speaker 5: Well, the officers spot some a guy who fits the
Speaker 5: description of the suspect they now have. They're looking for
Speaker 5: the guys that had the van, and they by the
Speaker 5: guy walking through Bowler. Basically, Robert had abandoned his band
Speaker 5: at this point, broke into a place and stole some binoculars,
Speaker 5: so he's kind of walking around the town of Boulver,
Speaker 5: acting like he's just a tourists or or whatever else
Speaker 5: out there. So you know, he's it's it's a good
Speaker 5: point again, good police work. They spot somebody, they ask
Speaker 5: him some questions, he doesn't give satisfactory answers, and eventually
Speaker 5: break it down to that he's the guy they're looking for,
Speaker 5: and you know, and he immediately starts his news stories that, oh,
Speaker 5: you know that this girl I was with, you know,
Speaker 5: really liked her and stuff that she jumped from my
Speaker 5: van and hit her head and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 5: So but it's it's it's again good good police basic
Speaker 5: police work to have spotted this guy, but to ask
Speaker 5: the right questions that lets him fall into his own trap,
Speaker 5: which will be important later in the court courtroom that
Speaker 5: because he begins, like all liars, you know, it's hard
Speaker 5: keeping lives straight. You can keep the truth state straight,
Speaker 5: but it's hard keeping alive straight.
Speaker 4: Sure, it's interesting dynamic you haven't in this their very
Speaker 4: movie esque scenes in this book. It's incredible where you
Speaker 4: have officer Vicky and and also the other Johnson uh
Speaker 4: where basically you know, pardon me, officer or detective Louc
Speaker 4: and Riggins, and he only wants his Vicky Brenn and
Speaker 4: chen rnish and pardon me with the pronunciation, but anyway,
Speaker 4: wants Vicky because yeah, and he thinks what he does
Speaker 4: as well is that he really, as you say in
Speaker 4: the book, he really wants to convince this Vicky. So
Speaker 4: he basically ignores everybody else and begins talking too much
Speaker 4: and again inconsistently. And so just tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about more about how he did himself in by
Speaker 4: the inconsistencies and trying to explain thinking he's so smart
Speaker 4: to think ahead of what questions they may ask him
Speaker 4: in anticipation.
Speaker 8: This is what he does.
Speaker 5: Well, he's for one thing, he's he's a pretty classic
Speaker 5: sociopath by this point, which is that you know, he's
Speaker 5: he's constantly thinking, he's constantly lying and thinking that he
Speaker 5: can talk his way out of problems. And because he
Speaker 5: feels he gets farther with women than he does with men,
Speaker 5: men intimidating, and so he doesn't want to deal with him.
Speaker 5: But he thinks he can kind of convince the police
Speaker 5: woman that you know, he's innocent and that it was
Speaker 5: all a misunderstanding and this girl, uh, you know, uh,
Speaker 5: it wasn't his fault that she's hurt or or anything
Speaker 5: else like that. So he's trying to he's trying to
Speaker 5: work that through this whole scenario. And of course, the
Speaker 5: problem is is that that when you're a guy like
Speaker 5: Robert Riggan, is that the more you talk, the more
Speaker 5: and and police officers take notes and and and and
Speaker 5: all these sorts of things, and and uh and then
Speaker 5: then all of a sudden, you're gonna get stuck and
Speaker 5: caught in your lives. And he starts and he changes
Speaker 5: his story. He talks about where she jumped out of
Speaker 5: the car and there's a lot of blood there and
Speaker 5: and you know, all the all these sorts of things
Speaker 5: that you know, he thinks is telling them a good story.
Speaker 5: But of course what these guys don't do very well
Speaker 5: is is think, well, the police are going to go
Speaker 5: up there and they're going to look at this spot
Speaker 5: in the road and find the blood, or they're going
Speaker 5: to check this out, and so trying to make a
Speaker 5: very long, complicated story in all the pieces fit, it
Speaker 5: doesn't work. So then you've got to start changing your story.
Speaker 5: As soon as you start changing your story, you of
Speaker 5: course have walked into yet another trap.
Speaker 4: Now this too, you introduce a character, chief inspector investigator
Speaker 4: Dennis Goodwin, and his job is to learn everything he
Speaker 4: can about Robert Riggins Junior's past. And the first thing
Speaker 4: he does is he talks to Riggins's first wife, Judy.
Speaker 4: And you also add again a little bit of experience
Speaker 4: this guy has is that as a young criminology student
Speaker 4: in Florida State University in January nineteen seventy eight, he
Speaker 4: was working as an intern for the Tallahassee Police Department
Speaker 4: Kyomega Sorority house break in with Ted Bundy. So he
Speaker 4: was actually enlisted to bring some evidence to court and
Speaker 4: encountered Ted Bundy. Weirdly enough, as he came into the
Speaker 4: building and so and everybody call him, and he thought
Speaker 4: it was weird everybody calling him Ted. So he could see,
Speaker 4: even in his brief encounter, the again the sociopathic, classic
Speaker 4: sociopath that has everybody to a certain degree charmed.
Speaker 8: And as we know, that was the.
Speaker 4: Case with Ted Bundy. So tell us what happens with
Speaker 4: Dennis Goodwin and what does he what kind of information
Speaker 4: does he get from the first wife Judy.
Speaker 5: Well, basically he does the Iowa part of the case
Speaker 5: and going back and find the ex wives and stuff,
Speaker 5: and and again it's more of the pattern Robert has.
Speaker 5: He can be very charming and very nice and you
Speaker 5: know when he met her, kind of swept her off
Speaker 5: her feet she was young and and that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: But then he has these Well, for first of all,
Speaker 5: he's an inveterate criminal. I mean, it's it's not just
Speaker 5: you know, he's not just a serial killer. He's you know,
Speaker 5: he's also a shoplifter and burglar and and uh sells
Speaker 5: things off and dealt some arms and these sorts of things.
Speaker 5: So she realizes pretty quick that he's you know, he's
Speaker 5: a criminal to start with, but you know his uh
Speaker 5: he is into once again, he's the the sex he wants.
Speaker 5: Isn't your loving sort of guy that she met and
Speaker 5: expected would be her husband. He's instead very violent and
Speaker 5: sex to him is all about rape and control and
Speaker 5: these sorts of things. So again, uh, Dennis the Godwin,
Speaker 5: the investigator Goodwin is is uh you know this, These
Speaker 5: these pieces keep falling together to make them believe that
Speaker 5: Robert Riggan, as they now know is, has the possible
Speaker 5: makings of a of a sexual predator sexual serial killer,
Speaker 5: even in that he follows the everything he does is
Speaker 5: sort of a pattern of of of uh he flips
Speaker 5: when when he doesn't get what he wants and then
Speaker 5: he wants violent sex and uh use of weapons or
Speaker 5: a knife to to get it just seems to exciting
Speaker 5: me even more. So they find this, start finding this,
Speaker 5: these sorts of things up from this wife and again
Speaker 5: later on another wife that that that establishes the pattern
Speaker 5: of who this guy is. So now once again they're
Speaker 5: starting to think that, you know, does he have other victims?
Speaker 5: Is there somebody else we would find if we keep
Speaker 5: going here.
Speaker 4: Now at the same time, we have to get back
Speaker 4: to Juanne Cordova.
Speaker 8: When we were back. If people were keeping.
Speaker 4: Track, is that she was in front of that television set.
Speaker 4: She recognized what she realized that her friend was likely
Speaker 4: Jane Doe and that this guy might even be coming
Speaker 4: for her. She didn't know, so she who did she do?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: What did she do?
Speaker 8: How did she go.
Speaker 4: About contacting the police? She was a former cop, but
Speaker 4: it's not like she was in that life anymore. So
Speaker 4: who did she contact and how did that go?
Speaker 5: Well? I mean, it is a very intertwined story. It's
Speaker 5: as you're noting, it's it's these these lives that all
Speaker 5: became whether it's the detectives or Robert Riggan or Joann
Speaker 5: Kordova's or Anita Paley's, they all become intertwined, sort of
Speaker 5: like a rug a tapestry or whatever. And it's almost
Speaker 5: hard to not have what's going on with this person,
Speaker 5: well that what's going on with that person, because they
Speaker 5: are so involved. But anyway, Joanne sees this and she
Speaker 5: thinks about it for a little bit. She actually is
Speaker 5: she's visiting with a friend, and this friend I think
Speaker 5: it convinces her that she needs to come forward, you know,
Speaker 5: she needs to. They don't even know who Anita is, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, she's just Jane Doe. And the things that
Speaker 5: Joanne knew about who Anita had left supposed was supposed
Speaker 5: to go see. And this guy's violent tendency. He convinces
Speaker 5: Joanne that, you know, to go forward. And there's there's
Speaker 5: a couple of things going on here for Joanne at
Speaker 5: that time. Her family doesn't really know that she's she's doing.
Speaker 5: She's working as a prostitute. She's ashamed. She you know,
Speaker 5: some of these guys who are on the police department
Speaker 5: so were guys who went with her through the police academy.
Speaker 5: So she's ashamed, she's humiliated. But there's something else going
Speaker 5: on too, which is she's working in the underworld of Denver,
Speaker 5: where you know, they don't care. It's a snitch is
Speaker 5: a snitch. And yeah, you may want to only go
Speaker 5: forward and tell about this guy who killed your friend,
Speaker 5: but what's what's to say that you're not going to
Speaker 5: also say something about the guy who sold her the
Speaker 5: crack cocaine or set or any of these other things
Speaker 5: that are going on the streets. So it's actually a
Speaker 5: very dangerous proposition for Joanne to go forward, but she
Speaker 5: eventually places a call and says she you know she can,
Speaker 5: she will meet with the police and tell them what
Speaker 5: she knows.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 5: So it with Joanne, it's sort of a you know
Speaker 5: that we all have good and bad in us. That
Speaker 5: in this case, the person who became a good police officer,
Speaker 5: she wasn't a police officer. She was a very good
Speaker 5: police officer. And this person who was a loving mother
Speaker 5: at one point overcame the Joanne that was they did
Speaker 5: the crack the person who had committed some crimes, the
Speaker 5: person who was working on the prophetitutes.
Speaker 4: So what you didn't what we didn't include in that
Speaker 4: is is not only did she have to consider this
Speaker 4: very real possibility to be considered a snitch and then
Speaker 4: her life would be in danger to make this other
Speaker 4: decision to go to the police and not knowing what
Speaker 4: the reaction to her coming forward would necessarily be, but
Speaker 4: she went in fact to show actually how dangerous it
Speaker 4: was in Denver, was that she had to go to
Speaker 4: a guy that she thought, listen, this guy's gonna know
Speaker 4: one way or another, I'm going to go to him
Speaker 4: and tell him what I'm going to do, and why,
Speaker 4: that's how serious this courageous woman, the kind of courageous
Speaker 4: woman had to really have to be able to do this.
Speaker 5: Well, she went to Yeah, the guy you're talking about
Speaker 5: basically ran that street, ran most of that appter. He
Speaker 5: is the biggest dealer on that thing. He had that
Speaker 5: the gangs that actually worked for him, and only two
Speaker 5: weeks earlier had been he was very volatile, very large man.
Speaker 5: And you know, she had upsett him for a different
Speaker 5: reasons earlier, and he almost choked the life out of her.
Speaker 5: So this is a guy she has to go to
Speaker 5: at his place where everybody in the place has guns,
Speaker 5: there's drugs, there's everything else. And she has to go
Speaker 5: to this guy and say, I need to do this,
Speaker 5: I need to testify for my friend. And you know,
Speaker 5: and she was taking a chance of that. He wouldn't
Speaker 5: have just thrown her in the back of a trunk
Speaker 5: of a car and taken her someplace and killed her,
Speaker 5: because you know, to to his way of thinking, is
Speaker 5: what's going to prevent her if she's going to go
Speaker 5: to the cops about this, what's to prevent her from
Speaker 5: working on an even sweeter deal. At some points and
Speaker 5: pointing the finger at him. A snitch is the snitch
Speaker 5: on the streets. Once, once you've broken that sort of
Speaker 5: code of the streets, you are you know, you're dangerous.
Speaker 5: You're dangerous to them. So she has to go to
Speaker 5: this guy who had almost killed her two weeks earlier
Speaker 5: and take a chance that he wasn't just going to
Speaker 5: strangle her right then and there or shoot her or
Speaker 5: anything else. And that, you know, So it did take
Speaker 5: an enormous amount of courage to go to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was amazing. In the book, how you what
Speaker 4: you portray is that she says, she kind of looks
Speaker 4: at his face, and then it seems to get to
Speaker 4: him that she's talking about a daughter, you know, and
Speaker 4: so that seemed to make him change. He said something
Speaker 4: to the effect like, do what you've got to do,
Speaker 4: so giving her as permission basically, do what you gotta.
Speaker 5: Do, but only what I liked his comments, but do
Speaker 5: what you gotta do, but only what you gotta do,
Speaker 5: because you know, I mean, it came with a warning.
Speaker 5: It came with a you know, we're gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 5: overlook you doing this. But if I hear about it
Speaker 5: going any farther than this, then it could be very
Speaker 5: dangerous for you. So you know it was, Ah, it was.
Speaker 5: It's just it took a lot of courage to do it.
Speaker 5: A lot of people can look down on Joanne and
Speaker 5: stuff for her lifestyle and what became of her life,
Speaker 5: but at the same time, it's you know, it took
Speaker 5: an enormous amount of courage to do what she did.
Speaker 4: Now we have this Riggan is in jail, and of
Speaker 4: course he has again, like a lot of sociopaths, not
Speaker 4: so surprising. These guys think they can defend themselves and
Speaker 4: decide to defend themselves, so as such they can. He
Speaker 4: was had the right to call the prosecutor, Denis Hall,
Speaker 4: to work out a deal. None of that was ever
Speaker 4: worked out. When he would he stuck to his story
Speaker 4: about Anita jumping out of the van and did all
Speaker 4: kinds of other wasted this Denis Hall's time. Basically, the
Speaker 4: thing that he stuck to this story was and I
Speaker 4: want you to tell us what, because it is a
Speaker 4: very very important aspect of this trial and this case.
Speaker 4: What was his explanation, because we just touched on it,
Speaker 4: that cut to the vagina, the the when they did
Speaker 4: the autopsy, they said this was like a surgical cut,
Speaker 4: a three inch cut, I would believe, so very deep,
Speaker 4: very precise. What was Ronald or what was Riggans's explanation
Speaker 4: for that vaginal wound?
Speaker 5: Well, originally he had no explanation for it. Uh And
Speaker 5: and this is one of the things that of course
Speaker 5: catches him because he you know, he doesn't have a
Speaker 5: good legitimate reason for why this, uh this happened. It's
Speaker 5: sort of later on and here you have to he
Speaker 5: did have a lawyer in the trial eventually that you know,
Speaker 5: they come up with this idea that prostitutes hide their uh,
Speaker 5: their crack sometimes in a you know, they were trying
Speaker 5: to say a vial or something, and that when she
Speaker 5: landed and when she jumped from the truck or as
Speaker 5: a van and hit the street, that this vile or
Speaker 5: even her crack pipe, you know, broke inside of her
Speaker 5: and cut her that way. You know, it's it's sort
Speaker 5: of one of those we've got to explain this at trial.
Speaker 5: How are we going to do it? Oh, let's see
Speaker 5: what what might be an explanation for that, you know.
Speaker 5: And then of course they talked to enough prostucts to say, well,
Speaker 5: you know, you know, well people hide their their their
Speaker 5: stuff in their vagina and their drugs to avoid, you know, police,
Speaker 5: if the police shake them down the streets or whatever
Speaker 5: something that they're they're trying to hide something. But it's
Speaker 5: one of those reaching to find a plausible uh excuse,
Speaker 5: you have to you have to define, you have to
Speaker 5: do some about it that trial. So it's to me,
Speaker 5: it's the defense attorney coming up with an idea of
Speaker 5: how this could have happened.
Speaker 4: Right, and for our audience too, we got to let
Speaker 4: them know that this is a death penalty case, so
Speaker 4: there's that good possibility looming. And also, yeah, so it's
Speaker 4: a death penalty case now. And what I wanted to
Speaker 4: say too as well is that they did have a
Speaker 4: couple other women that could have testified, but in the end,
Speaker 4: tell us what happens with those women and it ends
Speaker 4: up that it's just Juanne Cordova, and tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about what the police reaction is to her
Speaker 4: and what is her feeling about that and as a result,
Speaker 4: what does she do to get prepared for this to
Speaker 4: make sure that she does something that she always dreamed
Speaker 4: of when she was a detective, and that was to
Speaker 4: prosecute one of these kinds of guys. So what does
Speaker 4: she do in that endeavor? What does she do to
Speaker 4: to prepare herself for that?
Speaker 5: Well, Joanne earned the respect of the guys like Jim
Speaker 5: Burkehalter and John Locke and Dennis Godwin in that. You know,
Speaker 5: they they they they kind of came around, you know,
Speaker 5: they were shocked, of course, and and then kind of
Speaker 5: came around to uh that, Wow, it's it's taking some
Speaker 5: courage to do this.
Speaker 8: Fact.
Speaker 5: They're very they were very afraid. They they offered her
Speaker 5: protection several times, but you know, she kind of turned
Speaker 5: it down, saying, you know, if you do that, then
Speaker 5: it's going to make me even stand out even more.
Speaker 5: So they you know, they they she earned her respect
Speaker 5: just that she was coming forward. These other women you're
Speaker 5: talking about, there were other prostitutes, and they would have
Speaker 5: been very valuable at the trial. They they they had
Speaker 5: their own experiences, uh with with Riggans violence and and
Speaker 5: how he treated women and prostitutes and things he would
Speaker 5: say and do and and uh would have been very
Speaker 5: valuable witnesses. But they took off. They couldn't be found.
Speaker 5: They were subpoena for the trial, but they left town
Speaker 5: or or went underground or did whatever. And to me,
Speaker 5: there's there's your difference between somebody like uh Joanne, who's
Speaker 5: living the same life they are and bases the same
Speaker 5: dangers and humiliation and embarrassment that these women did. And
Speaker 5: yet you know that that kernel of goodness, of morality
Speaker 5: and and doing the right thing was stronger in her.
Speaker 5: While these other people took off and did the safe
Speaker 5: thing for themselves. Joanne went forward. And like you said,
Speaker 5: she she was a young cop. Like all young cops,
Speaker 5: you know, they don't want to just work shoplifting cases
Speaker 5: and traffic and all that sort of stuff. All their lives.
Speaker 5: They they all dream about catching the Ted Bundy or
Speaker 5: the the killer and through their detective work and their
Speaker 5: testimony at trial, they put them away. I mean, you know,
Speaker 5: everybody wants to live the television show and to to
Speaker 5: a young officer like joe Anne when she was the
Speaker 5: police officer, that's what she dreamed about, is that some
Speaker 5: days she would be a detective and she would, through
Speaker 5: her work as a as a detective and her testimony
Speaker 5: at trial, put a dangerous killer behind bars. And so
Speaker 5: this was her chance to do that. Not under the
Speaker 5: circumstances that she had ever dreamed or fantas it's about,
Speaker 5: but you know that uh, it was, it was I
Speaker 5: don't know if it's a dream come true because of
Speaker 5: the circumstances, but it's it was certainly uh coming full
Speaker 5: circle for for Joe Anne. It's you know, it's a
Speaker 5: true moment in somebody's life where you know hopefully that
Speaker 5: that it's it's it's you know when things are being
Speaker 5: weighed on that that scale there, that this is one
Speaker 5: of those things that weighs for you.
Speaker 4: And as essentially the star witness, she looks sober. I
Speaker 4: mean because you hear so many cases where the witness
Speaker 4: is discredited completely and entirely because they're a prostitute, because
Speaker 4: they're a crack addict, no credibility, you know, and and
Speaker 4: they're not good witnesses whatsoever. She was sober, looking, healthy, consistent, truthful.
Speaker 4: She didn't deny her addiction or the prostitution. She owned
Speaker 4: up to that, and she was good on cross examination,
Speaker 4: and she seemed to be according to what you say, solid, unwavering.
Speaker 4: And it ends up it's just the battle of the
Speaker 4: expert witnesses. This doctor Chris Lee Sperry and doctor Galloway
Speaker 4: and so tell us a little bit about Joanne Cordova's experience.
Speaker 4: I mean, what I wanted you to talk about was
Speaker 4: that she was really trying to again, still fighting with
Speaker 4: his addiction, but it seemed at some point that she
Speaker 4: had a grasp of it, that she had turned a corner,
Speaker 4: that she this was part of that, as you described,
Speaker 4: this redemption, this sort of coming back from where she
Speaker 4: was to where she could have been.
Speaker 5: Because she cleaned up, as you said, especially for the trial.
Speaker 5: She you know, uh, fortunately there was enough time that
Speaker 5: she was able to uh try to get a handle
Speaker 5: on her addiction. And and when she when she testified,
Speaker 5: you know, the defense attorney did everything he could to
Speaker 5: humiliate her and try to get her to crack and
Speaker 5: to go emotional on on the whole thing. But what
Speaker 5: all she did was just she didn't try to. You know,
Speaker 5: the one thing you can always tell about a bad witness,
Speaker 5: they try to elaborate. Uh, you know, they make up
Speaker 5: more than they did. Oh he said, I'm going to
Speaker 5: kill the next one. Or are they They do do
Speaker 5: something like this, A truly good witness says no more
Speaker 5: than what they actually know. They don't try to add
Speaker 5: to it. They don't try to make you know, Perry
Speaker 5: Mason moment there. They they only say what they do,
Speaker 5: what they know, And Joanne did that. She didn't try
Speaker 5: to say that, uh you know, Robert Reagan told me
Speaker 5: he killed Anita. He didn't. She didn't try to say
Speaker 5: anything like that. All she did was say what she
Speaker 5: her experiences with him and what she knew, and that
Speaker 5: that's the stuff that Jerry's believe. You know, they don't
Speaker 5: believe that other stuff they you know, everybody's seen enough
Speaker 5: television to not believe all that that stuff. So with
Speaker 5: with Joanne, it's it was a she just told the
Speaker 5: truth and and no matter what the defense attorney tried
Speaker 5: to do to humiliate her, and she didn't break She
Speaker 5: she said she owned it. And she said that's me.
Speaker 5: I you know, yes, I've worked as a prostitute, I've
Speaker 5: done these things. I was a police officer. I'm uh
Speaker 5: these the and and that sort of thing just is
Speaker 5: devastating to a defense attorney because he wants her to crack.
Speaker 5: But basic cliche. She just owned it and did a
Speaker 5: great job. So and it did become the defense or
Speaker 5: the defense experts versus the prosecution experts in the end,
Speaker 5: But you know, I talking to jurors afterwards, it was
Speaker 5: it was Joanne's testimony that really salted this one away.
Speaker 5: That the experts are one thing. The prosecution experts were
Speaker 5: much more convincing, you know, And you have to say, well,
Speaker 5: is that because they're telling the truth and the other
Speaker 5: guys are trying to come up with explanations. But you
Speaker 5: know that that's that's what you get. But it's that
Speaker 5: that you know, there's there's there's a thing in trials
Speaker 5: called demeanor testimony, and people don't talk about this much,
Speaker 5: but it's not just what you say. It's your demeanor
Speaker 5: on the stand, and and juries are are allowed to
Speaker 5: take that into two account. They're allowed to sit there
Speaker 5: and say, I think he was lying, I think she
Speaker 5: was telling the truth. I think the way she did
Speaker 5: this or did that made her believable to me. It's
Speaker 5: it's demeanor. It's not exactly, it's not words, it's not
Speaker 5: a document, but it's legitimate. And having somebody having Joanne
Speaker 5: testify as she would have if she was a police
Speaker 5: officer really assaulted this one away for the prosecution.
Speaker 4: Now we could talk about just briefly what happens is
Speaker 4: a death penalty case, and there's always the mitigating factors
Speaker 4: and the aggregator aggravating factors, and in the end he
Speaker 4: gets life without the possibility of parole. Luckily he has
Speaker 4: a couple of people fighting for his life. Really otherwise
Speaker 4: he would have got the death penalty. But more importantly,
Speaker 4: what's interesting in the book you you talk about who
Speaker 4: was attended the court was not the victim, not Anita's family,
Speaker 4: not Riggins family certainly, but Joanne Fordova in the end, again,
Speaker 4: just a little bright spot in a in a true
Speaker 4: crime story that has no happy ending. You talk about
Speaker 4: what Joanne Pudova was doing today seventeen years later and
Speaker 4: a futures program, So tell us about a little bit
Speaker 4: of a right spot in this story.
Speaker 5: Well, I think you're exactly right. You know, it's we
Speaker 5: and Dan, You and I have taught for years on
Speaker 5: some of the stories, and you know the type of
Speaker 5: stories I look for, And I'm not looking for that
Speaker 5: that big story that you know has some sort of
Speaker 5: wizard of ours ending. But I'm looking for something that
Speaker 5: has a message there. And this is just I mean,
Speaker 5: and this is a story. It's not John Bennet, it's
Speaker 5: not Ted Bundy. It's not any of these these sorts
Speaker 5: of stories in Casey Anthony or or anything juicy like that.
Speaker 5: This is a a a small story. It's a it's
Speaker 5: a small murder of a of a prostitute with a
Speaker 5: prostitute as a star witness, and you know, a guy
Speaker 5: who was just this horrible creature created by other horrible creatures.
Speaker 5: And and there's there's people say, well, why would you
Speaker 5: do a story like that? And the reason I would
Speaker 5: do a story like that is because of it shows you,
Speaker 5: no matter how far you have fallen, there is a
Speaker 5: kernel in some people that you know. It makes it
Speaker 5: a good story. It makes it an important story that
Speaker 5: hopefully is some thing more than the Joanne Bane or
Speaker 5: John Ramsey's story or something along those lines where you're, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, there there is no satisfying or good ending
Speaker 5: and nobody is a is a good guy and nobody
Speaker 5: is a bad guy. And it's just out there and
Speaker 5: it's got a lot of publicity. But in this I'm
Speaker 5: hoping people will look at this and say, you know,
Speaker 5: no matter how far I've fallen, or no matter what
Speaker 5: kind of a you know, troubles I've had in my life,
Speaker 5: here here's somebody who had fallen about as far as
Speaker 5: you can possibly think about falling and came through in
Speaker 5: the end and did the right thing. And Joanne, she
Speaker 5: you know, she's had her ups and downs, even even
Speaker 5: after this Crack is no no joke. It's one of
Speaker 5: the most addictive drugs out there. It's a it's a
Speaker 5: horrible thing, and when you are already hurting in your life,
Speaker 5: it's the only way to make yourself feel good for
Speaker 5: a little bit. But she went up and down, and
Speaker 5: then she got into this program and and graduated from
Speaker 5: the program and has been clean and sober for oh
Speaker 5: what is she now, She's going on a couple of years,
Speaker 5: and you know, and and all of us. I talked
Speaker 5: to Jim Burke Alter before I republished this book, and
Speaker 5: and talked to Dennis Hall, who was the prosecutor, and
Speaker 5: some other people, and and we all keep pulling for her.
Speaker 5: And I talked to Joanne and then let her know
Speaker 5: that you know, we're all still pulling for her. We
Speaker 5: recognize the courage that it took to do what she did,
Speaker 5: and so you know, we're all hoping and and hoping
Speaker 5: that this is the last time, and that she has
Speaker 5: now found her herself. She's she's funny, she's she's like,
Speaker 5: you know, I'm still trying to figure out what I'm
Speaker 5: going to do when I grow up, so you know,
Speaker 5: and and but it's been through what she's been through
Speaker 5: and to still have that that sense of humor and
Speaker 5: that sort of you know, not going to give up,
Speaker 5: not not quitting, you know, it's it's uh, it can
Speaker 5: make it. It can make going through a tornado seem
Speaker 5: like he didn't really deal with much of it. If
Speaker 5: you have anything, if if I compare my life to hers.
Speaker 4: Well you've done an incredible job of capturing basically this world.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is not the first book that has
Speaker 4: delved into the world of prostitution and then of course
Speaker 4: the world of murder as well as a result. But
Speaker 4: or there's a correlation anyway, these are these are where
Speaker 4: the serial killers, where these people prey on people, and
Speaker 4: these are the people the most vulnerable, the person that
Speaker 4: would jump in a vehicle for a piece of crack,
Speaker 4: to a violent rape, anal rape and demeaning. He called
Speaker 4: this these women everything under the sun, and then to
Speaker 4: apologize for this assault. I mean, even though they are prostitutes,
Speaker 4: this still, even by their definitions, they were raped, and
Speaker 4: yet a little bit of clothing was all it took,
Speaker 4: a little bit of not having sex from the beginning
Speaker 4: to the end of the time that he paid for
Speaker 4: was his idea of romance. And bizarrely enough, these women's
Speaker 4: idea of a pretty good date compared to some of
Speaker 4: the dates that they were experiencing. So you've captured how
Speaker 4: on earth that someone even like Joanne Pardova, never mind
Speaker 4: Anita Pailey, a woman with a couple kids, that was
Speaker 4: talked into this lifestyle at a young age. You've done
Speaker 4: an incredible job capturing these lives and how on earth
Speaker 4: it could happen. And it's a very cost andary tail
Speaker 4: and again with somewhat of a happy ending in terms
Speaker 4: of the right thing was done and good police work
Speaker 4: and people observant otherwise who knows.
Speaker 5: So yeah, very much credible.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you Steve for coming on once
Speaker 4: again another incredible tale. I don't want to thank you
Speaker 4: very much. For those that might not know about Wild
Speaker 4: Boo Press, can you tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: that and how they might find out more information about
Speaker 4: some of your other work and other fine authors on
Speaker 4: Wildloo Press.
Speaker 5: Well. Wild Bloo Press is my publishing company with my
Speaker 5: partner Michael Kordova, and we started I guess Our first
Speaker 5: book came out in twenty fourteen and we haven't looked back.
Speaker 5: We have a number of really good, great true crime authors, everybody.
Speaker 8: For well.
Speaker 5: And William Phelps is our latest just came out today
Speaker 5: with the book called Murderer's Row. We have, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: just an outstanding group of authors who have kind of
Speaker 5: bought into our idea of of trying to make a
Speaker 5: publishing company that is for authors and by authors, and
Speaker 5: you know, trying to establish ourselves in the world of
Speaker 5: traditional publishing. We don't want to call ourselves an indie
Speaker 5: publishing company, and we see ourselves as sort of somewhere
Speaker 5: between indie publishing and traditional publishing. But so while blue
Speaker 5: press dot com, uh, and you can go there and
Speaker 5: you can find all of our authors. We have true
Speaker 5: crime and crime thrillers, and we are starting some history genres,
Speaker 5: and we even have some romance in there. Not that
Speaker 5: you can get me to read any of it.
Speaker 6: But.
Speaker 5: It's uh, maybe maybe somebody out We have some great
Speaker 5: romance writers though we have Amy Lee Simpson and Janis Bocoff,
Speaker 5: who are very popular and are doing well, and they're
Speaker 5: just excellent writers. And we're just trying to give people
Speaker 5: who maybe don't have a voice out there or would
Speaker 5: be accepted by a traditional publisher a chance to get
Speaker 5: a book out there. And we think we've found some
Speaker 5: great ones.
Speaker 4: Oh, you absolutely have.
Speaker 8: You had an incredible roster.
Speaker 4: You're next to someone from the well breast right beginning
Speaker 4: bro Bert will be beyond with Betrayal in Blue and
Speaker 4: that's next month coming up.
Speaker 8: So that's a great book.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely great book.
Speaker 4: So I want to thank you again for coming on
Speaker 4: talking about Rough Trade. You have yourself a great evening
Speaker 4: and I we'll probably be talking to you again real soon.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: I'm sure we will. Dan, it's always a pleasure to
Speaker 5: talk to you.
Speaker 4: Bye bye, Thank you. Can I