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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. This psychological crime thriller takes us inside the
Speaker 2: mind of a unique female serial killer, a prostitute who
Speaker 2: murdered seven adult men, a case with which the author
Speaker 2: was intimately involved. The issues raised by this my profile
Speaker 2: criminal case remain unresolved to this day. Women, even prostitutes,
Speaker 2: have the right to self defense in theory, but in
Speaker 2: practice the story is more complicated. This book will challenge
Speaker 2: everything you ever thought about prostitutes, serial killers, and justice
Speaker 2: in America. Alien Warnos is a damaged soul, a genuine
Speaker 2: American outlaw, a symbol of women's rage, a symbol of
Speaker 2: what can happen to severely abused children, and of how
Speaker 2: our justice system fails women. Chessler's involvement with a serial
Speaker 2: killer has haunted her ever since. She speaks in Aileen
Speaker 2: Warnos's voice as well as in her own, and delivers
Speaker 2: an incisive, original, and dramatic portrait of a cognitively impaired, traumatized,
Speaker 2: and alcoholic woman who endured so much pain in her
Speaker 2: short life. When she had had enough, the results were deadly.
Speaker 2: This is a poignant, sometimes humorous, never before told, behind
Speaker 2: the scenes tale well. Warnos's story is handled with great sensitivity,
Speaker 2: but also with realistic detachment by Chesler as she probes
Speaker 2: the telling moment. The telling phrase was Warno's suffering from
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress after a life lived on a killing field?
Speaker 2: Was she also born evil? So many prostitutes have been
Speaker 2: torture murdered by serial killers? How did Warnos once pray
Speaker 2: become a predator? Requiem for a Female serial Killer will
Speaker 2: also haunt you. It won't let you put it down.
Speaker 2: Take a walk on the wild side The Ghost of
Speaker 2: Alien Warnos Beckons. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 2: is Requiem for a Female Serial Killer with my special guest,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Philip Chesler. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 2: thank you so much for this interview. Philip Phillips Chesler.
Speaker 3: It is my pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me on this to
Speaker 2: talk about your reque for a serial killer. Now you
Speaker 2: talk about you open in your book. Florida nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: in a report, two women are being sought shooting deaths
Speaker 2: of eight to twelve middle aged men lured to their
Speaker 2: desks in Florida highways. A suspect number one, a white
Speaker 2: female five foot ten, blonde hair. Suspect number two, white
Speaker 2: female five foot four to five foot six, heavy build
Speaker 2: and short brown hair. They are armed, in dangerous and
Speaker 2: possibly the nation's first serial killers. And it was a
Speaker 2: warning put out too men traveling off Highway one seventy five,
Speaker 2: I seventy five. All of these men were strangers, not husbands,
Speaker 2: not intimates.
Speaker 3: You.
Speaker 2: Soon after Alien is arrested, the Lee Carol Warnos called you.
Speaker 2: A few months after she was a tell us about
Speaker 2: that conversation. What was said in that short amount of time.
Speaker 3: Well, first, when I first heard the announcement, I thought
Speaker 3: it was a joke, It wasn't possible. And then when
Speaker 3: she was captured, I thought, well okay. And what drew
Speaker 3: me in was the hope vision that we could present
Speaker 3: to a jury the nature of prostitution in America and globally,
Speaker 3: which is the most extreme form of violence towards women,
Speaker 3: and it's not understood that way. So when she called
Speaker 3: me for the first time, and there's a backstory to
Speaker 3: how I arranged that, I knew I would only have
Speaker 3: a few seconds to get her attention. So I said, Lee,
Speaker 3: I represent a feminist government in exile. We know that
Speaker 3: you've been captured and we'd like to help. And she responded,
Speaker 3: far fucking out. You're the women's lib right, I said yes,
Speaker 3: And then she said, tell the women out there that
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, Tell them that men hate our guts. I
Speaker 3: was raped and I defended myself, and she referred to
Speaker 3: the known I mean gerald Steno had been killing prostitutes,
Speaker 3: mainly black cocaine addict prostitutes, all over Florida, was never
Speaker 3: caught for a long time. She knew about this. The
Speaker 3: corpses littering the highways were those of women, not of men.
Speaker 3: So what she did ultimately was a first. As you
Speaker 3: said already, she was meant to be prey, and she
Speaker 3: became the first time out someone who killed in self defense.
Speaker 3: I really believe that thereafter something changed and she became
Speaker 3: a predator. So that's how it began.
Speaker 2: Now give our audience your background at this time and
Speaker 2: position at this time when you are talking to alien
Speaker 2: on the telephone. What is your background in your feminist
Speaker 2: activist background? Tell us about that.
Speaker 3: Well, for since the late nineteen sixties, I've been involved
Speaker 3: in all the issues as a scholar, as a professor,
Speaker 3: and as an activist in terms of violence against women, rape, incest,
Speaker 3: woman battering, pornography, prostitution. And I don't think that we
Speaker 3: changed a lot of consciousness, but we failed also to
Speaker 3: command our point of our abolitionist point of view, either
Speaker 3: in the media or on campuses. So I saw her,
Speaker 3: I didn't even think, is she is serial killer? Do
Speaker 3: you really want to mix it up with a serial killer?
Speaker 3: I only saw her as someone who'd been raped all
Speaker 3: her life, paid to be raped eventually, who probably had
Speaker 3: organic brain syndrome and other cognitive and neurological impairments, hustled
Speaker 3: every day of her life from the time she was
Speaker 3: quite young, like maybe nine or ten, and I go
Speaker 3: through all of the traumatizing and tortuous experiences that she had,
Speaker 3: and she was the tougher for it, and the more
Speaker 3: dissociated for it. So I saw in her the opportunity
Speaker 3: to put prostitution on trial, to put male violence and
Speaker 3: contempt for women who are prostitutes or who they view
Speaker 3: as if they are prostitutes, on trial. I also wanted
Speaker 3: to have a jury here that women should have the
Speaker 3: right to kill in self defense, but mainly don't the
Speaker 3: first time that Eileen killed in self defense? What could
Speaker 3: she have done gone to the police. There was a
Speaker 3: warrant out for her arrest. She was already a criminal
Speaker 3: by definition because she was selling sex for money. The
Speaker 3: johns don't get arrested, they are not seen as criminals.
Speaker 3: So there's a little movement in that area, but not
Speaker 3: much really, So what could she have done? She had
Speaker 3: to just go back to earning her daily bread, so
Speaker 3: to speak. So I didn't even contemplate is she a
Speaker 3: serial killer? If so, what kind? And it took me
Speaker 3: years to profile the kind of very unique serial killer
Speaker 3: that she is.
Speaker 2: When did you get to when did the decision come
Speaker 2: to be able to try to defend her with this
Speaker 2: rape self defense? How much information did you have before
Speaker 2: you endeavored to take upon this project.
Speaker 3: Well, I had already written, I had written about three
Speaker 3: cases in America from the nineteen seventies in which mainly
Speaker 3: women of color had killed in self defense because they
Speaker 3: were raped or in one instance, to avoid being raped.
Speaker 3: And there's case law that I wanted the Florida public
Speaker 3: defenders to consider because I thought it might apply. Now.
Speaker 3: Of course, she didn't get a fair deal, a fair shake,
Speaker 3: not in her life, and not at her first trial,
Speaker 3: and not when she made her first confession, because the
Speaker 3: video of that confession, when her only goal was to
Speaker 3: rescue her lover who was the one who betrayed her
Speaker 3: by taking the stand against her, and the cops cannily
Speaker 3: set that up. And I write about what they did
Speaker 3: and what it led to. So the fact that Lee,
Speaker 3: that's what people call her, the fact that Lee kept
Speaker 3: referring to she killed in self defense sixteen times in
Speaker 3: that confession. The jury didn't get to hear that because
Speaker 3: somebody edited it out of the video that the jury
Speaker 3: was shown. So that's just one of many many examples
Speaker 3: of too little justice for her. On the other hand,
Speaker 3: I can't say, well, the public defenders through the case
Speaker 3: because she was a hard client. She cursed like a sailor,
Speaker 3: she cursed like old the men who were John's in
Speaker 3: her life, none of whom she hated. She thought they
Speaker 3: were her friends or her boyfriends. Some of them gave
Speaker 3: her advice carry a gun. You know, in a fact,
Speaker 3: you're not working, honey, you're in a war. So she
Speaker 3: started carrying a gun, which did save her life that
Speaker 3: first time. And this is something that I talked to
Speaker 3: her about at length. She would never ever reveal the
Speaker 3: details of each murder, so I had to imagine it
Speaker 3: through her eyes based on what I understood about her,
Speaker 3: what I had learned from talking to her and corresponding
Speaker 3: with her and reading every piece of paper legal and
Speaker 3: otherwise that I could find. And she was a very
Speaker 3: quick study. Because suddenly, he is she's hearing from a
Speaker 3: feminist who has other feminists backing her up who want
Speaker 3: to put together a team, like a dream team for her.
Speaker 3: She starts talking like a feminist. I was kind of
Speaker 3: impressed and amazed. So I think that women who are
Speaker 3: prostituted pretty much know how to say what they think
Speaker 3: the customer wants to hear, and you never get to
Speaker 3: know what they're really thinking. So she was quite good
Speaker 3: at that. And I remember at a certain point I
Speaker 3: asked her, could you please write down for me how
Speaker 3: many times you've been raped? And she did, and then
Speaker 3: she read it to me on the phone. Well, her
Speaker 3: definition of rape was not my definition. And I've studied
Speaker 3: rape traumas syndrome, and anyone who's listening knows that some
Speaker 3: women they get raped once and it changes, it crushes
Speaker 3: a bit of their soul for a while, if not forever,
Speaker 3: even if they continue on with their lives. So she
Speaker 3: how definition was when a bunch of guys, probably on
Speaker 3: the young side, tie you down, tie you up, bang,
Speaker 3: rape you, rob you, threaten to kill you, beat you up,
Speaker 3: but then you live. So she was giving me examples
Speaker 3: of this, and then she had another definition of being raped,
Speaker 3: which was if you sell the sex, which is like
Speaker 3: getting money for being raped, but the guy doesn't pay you.
Speaker 3: That's another definition of rape to her. And after she
Speaker 3: got through I don't know ten or fifteen, I said,
Speaker 3: you can stop now because it's way off the charts,
Speaker 3: although it's totally typical of any prostitute's life. And she says,
Speaker 3: now I can keep going. It's okay. It doesn't bother me.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, oh my god, but it bothers me. You know,
Speaker 3: such extreme profound violence, and she toughed it out because
Speaker 3: and drank. You have to drink or take drugs and
Speaker 3: get dissociated in order to make your way through this
Speaker 3: war zone.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about her background, because I know people have,
Speaker 2: Like I said to you in the beginning before the program,
Speaker 2: I've read all kinds of things about her horrendous upbringing.
Speaker 2: But there are things in this book that you chronicle
Speaker 2: that I don't think people are aware of, like that
Speaker 2: she had experienced death and seen a corpse. But let's
Speaker 2: go back to the everything that you found out about
Speaker 2: her background and also her foray I guess into selling
Speaker 2: sex at a young age.
Speaker 3: Well, her biological father hung himself in jail. He was
Speaker 3: known as a pedophile and a wife beater. A biological
Speaker 3: mother who I track down in Texas and who was
Speaker 3: afraid to visit her even on death row, afraid of
Speaker 3: her daughter who had a bad, bad temper, No compassion possible. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: her grandparents, who were both alcoholics, ran her biological mother
Speaker 3: out of town, and then they told Lee and her
Speaker 3: brother Keith that they were her real parents. Whether they
Speaker 3: performed a legal adoption or not, I'm not sure. I
Speaker 3: can check and her grandfather was its Finnish origin in Michigan,
Speaker 3: Troy and Rochester, Michigan where it gets pretty cold in
Speaker 3: the winter. And she was probably difficult and rebellious, and
Speaker 3: she was hard of hearing and visually impaired. And the grandmother,
Speaker 3: who Lee claimed did really love her, never correct did
Speaker 3: these impairments. I'm not sure why not. She managed to
Speaker 3: get herself into different kinds of trouble, but her grandfather
Speaker 3: beat her savagely for minor infractions as well as for
Speaker 3: major infractions. And then she began she was very proud
Speaker 3: that she didn't take drugs, and she didn't consider the
Speaker 3: beer that she drank a drug. I do, and because
Speaker 3: she drank a lot of it. But you know, back
Speaker 3: in the day, she tried psychedelics, she tried grass. She
Speaker 3: had to obtain them somehow when she was eight or
Speaker 3: nine or ten, so she started getting them by having
Speaker 3: sex with neighboring boys. And this was voluntary, she said,
Speaker 3: this was voluntary. But then when she was about thirteen
Speaker 3: going on fourteen, she was raped and impregnated, presumably by
Speaker 3: a friend or someone who represented himself as a friend
Speaker 3: of her father grandfather. And can you imagine what her
Speaker 3: family felt here. She's someone who doesn't clean up after herself,
Speaker 3: who has a bad temper, who's loud, doesn't pay attention
Speaker 3: in school, can't see, can't hear very well. At the trial,
Speaker 3: I think this was true as well. She's pregnant, so
Speaker 3: she goes to the Florence Crittenden Home for unwed mothers
Speaker 3: in an era when it was seen as shameful and
Speaker 3: there was no question ever about keeping your baby. You
Speaker 3: have to sight. Unseen baby is whisked away. And by
Speaker 3: the way, that's the kind of torture, and it's catastrophic
Speaker 3: and traumatic, just that that male serial killers cannot go through.
Speaker 3: In many ways or in some ways, she was like
Speaker 3: male serial killers, bullied and isolated, and she did set
Speaker 3: two fires with her brother, but then her grandparent parents
Speaker 3: threw her out and she lived in an abandoned car
Speaker 3: in the snow. Now this is unheard of because where
Speaker 3: were the social workers, Where was the police department, Where
Speaker 3: were the other adult neighbors. Why was she not looked
Speaker 3: after or rescued or helped in some way? Of course
Speaker 3: she wasn't, and I'm not saying she was an easy ride,
Speaker 3: but she was a child. She was a child, So
Speaker 3: after she was raped and pregnated and forced to give
Speaker 3: up or probably wanted to give up a baby for adoption,
Speaker 3: that's when she told her aunt's sister Laurie that men
Speaker 3: hate us, they really hate us. I don't know where
Speaker 3: that sentence came from in her head, but at that
Speaker 3: point she hit the road, and she was young and
Speaker 3: good looking and blonde and Scandinavian and was hooking on
Speaker 3: the road. Now, who's on the road truck is? They
Speaker 3: could be big and rough and good time guys. Likewise,
Speaker 3: and she was by then, at fifteen sixteen, drinking a
Speaker 3: lot of beer and had a child sense of money. So,
Speaker 3: for example, her brother Keith died and left her ten
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. A regular kind of person would say, hmm,
Speaker 3: maybe I could make a down payment on a house
Speaker 3: or fund some education. No, she blew it in three
Speaker 3: months on a car which was repossessed, and on beer, music,
Speaker 3: and food. So I only gradually began to comprehend that maybe,
Speaker 3: even though she was slick and smart and drew beautiful drawings,
Speaker 3: that she may have had a low IQ as well,
Speaker 3: not a high one. And in many ways she was
Speaker 3: thinking the way a child thinks. If you have enough
Speaker 3: money from the sex for a motel room for a
Speaker 3: couple of nights, and for beer and food, you're okay.
Speaker 3: So the ability to plan ahead was nonexistent, and unlike
Speaker 3: many high profile male serial killers, she just left clues everywhere.
Speaker 3: She wasn't strategic in her killings. So here you have
Speaker 3: a child in America, a child of Michigan, who was
Speaker 3: just allowed to disappear and make her own little way
Speaker 3: in this wide wide world. And in Requiem for a
Speaker 3: Female serial Killer, I do have some of her descriptions
Speaker 3: which are heart rendering of what it means when guys
Speaker 3: get rough with you, exactly what it means. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to read them on the air, but you know,
Speaker 3: this was her life, and she toughed it out. And
Speaker 3: when she was in jail in Citrus County, it was
Speaker 3: male jail and everybody was like taunting her, the male prisoners,
Speaker 3: And she started telling me about it, and I said,
Speaker 3: oh my god, how can you parent? She goes, I'm tough,
Speaker 3: I can take it. It doesn't bother me. Let them talk,
Speaker 3: you know. So she was from another world, not my world.
Speaker 3: I'm privileged to lead a life of ideas and an
Speaker 3: activist life. She didn't have that chance. And in fact
Speaker 3: it was funny because here I came, and other feminists
Speaker 3: with me who were revolutionary in our vision, and we
Speaker 3: wanted to overturn this bad stuff. She just wanted a
Speaker 3: piece of the pie. She just wanted, you know, fair
Speaker 3: and square our meals and her her money for her work. Different.
Speaker 3: She was a petit bourgeois capitalist and did not understand,
Speaker 3: could not believe why anyone, beginning with myself and others
Speaker 3: like me, would do something for no money. She didn't
Speaker 3: get it, So I was a fool, also not just she.
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Speaker 2: Details and two for these messages. Now, Phyllis, we were
Speaker 2: talking about just her background. She gets married when she's
Speaker 2: twenty years old. Tell us about this very brief marriage.
Speaker 3: Oh, she married Lewis Fell who she beat. She beat
Speaker 3: him and he took out an order of protection against her,
Speaker 3: and she was very proud that he had a lot
Speaker 3: of money, but she wasn't going to stay with him
Speaker 3: even for the money. She had a very interesting relationship
Speaker 3: to money because on the one hand, she professed, I
Speaker 3: don't care about it, it's not important to me. On
Speaker 3: the other hand, once she was caught and she became
Speaker 3: notorious or famous, or she put it, I've made history,
Speaker 3: then she was really obsessed with money. And I understand
Speaker 3: that many male serial killers are likewise. So she had
Speaker 3: two very different kinds of relationships to money.
Speaker 2: Now, tell us about this relationship that really is more
Speaker 2: than a contributing factor to these murders, but just the
Speaker 2: high point of Aileen's life, and tell us where they
Speaker 2: met and then how this relationship. What was the dynamics
Speaker 2: of this relationship right from the start, and what did
Speaker 2: Aileen tried to do for her new love, Tyra harry Well.
Speaker 3: I wish I truly understood it. I also tracked Tyrea
Speaker 3: down and interviewed her where she was living. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to say where, but both of them agree that
Speaker 3: Lee was not really a lesbian. I don't know what
Speaker 3: that means exactly, because she said she loved her and
Speaker 3: she confessed to save her, and she was her one
Speaker 3: and only, her only living person in her life. She
Speaker 3: didn't have family, she didn't have friends, so she had Tyria.
Speaker 3: So maybe they weren't sexual. Many prostitutes are not sexual.
Speaker 3: How can they be given what they must do and
Speaker 3: what they must think? So perhaps they were bonded, joined
Speaker 3: at the hip, but it wasn't necessarily or primarily sexual.
Speaker 3: So it was a matter of having someone there, a
Speaker 3: living being, a body in the cave, so to speak.
Speaker 3: So Tyrea said she didn't like Lee hooking and that
Speaker 3: she would have worked two jobs cleaning motels or doing
Speaker 3: minimal wage work to keep Lee off the road. Lee
Speaker 3: said no, Tyree wanted cigarettes and beer, and I had
Speaker 3: to keep giving her money and I had to work
Speaker 3: to support her. Now I could not decide where the
Speaker 3: truth lay between the two of them. So and Lee,
Speaker 3: by the way, did not hate men. Does not hate men,
Speaker 3: or at least that's what she said. On the one hand,
Speaker 3: men hate our guts. But on the other hand, hey,
Speaker 3: my best friends, you know, are these guys you know,
Speaker 3: and they're like boyfriends or and she like a child,
Speaker 3: she would do some things that prostitutes do not do.
Speaker 3: She would cuddle, she would kiss, is unheard of in
Speaker 3: the world of prostitution. So again signaling to me that
Speaker 3: there was a primitive child trapped in this grown up body.
Speaker 3: And she had many boyfriends before the first lesbian love
Speaker 3: affairs she had before Tyrea many boyfriends, and she could
Speaker 3: not understand why they always screwed her and hit her
Speaker 3: and left her. So I tried to see a lot
Speaker 3: of it through her eyes, because she really didn't understand
Speaker 3: why she kept getting in trouble, genuinely didn't get it
Speaker 3: because she saw herself as trying hard and being forced
Speaker 3: to fail. Nobody gave me a break, ever, was her line.
Speaker 3: So she had a complicated relationship, as most prostitutes do
Speaker 3: to sexuality, it gets wrecked for them wrecked.
Speaker 2: Now, how did she conduct herself as this prostitute? She
Speaker 2: thought it was quite a novel approach to doing it
Speaker 2: in conspicuous, she said. She describes it as how did
Speaker 2: she approach prostitution and who did she target?
Speaker 3: She was very clever. She heard disguise was to pass
Speaker 3: for normal. She was far from normal. But she wore
Speaker 3: cut off shorts or jeans and a sweatshirt. You're very plain,
Speaker 3: no makeup, in no way tarted up. And she was
Speaker 3: clean too. Because many studies of prostitutes in general, and
Speaker 3: definitely in Florida, you know, they have open running swords,
Speaker 3: they have diseases that men have given to them, they
Speaker 3: have fevers. It doesn't stop the Johns, which is something
Speaker 3: I do not understand. And they are also dressed up
Speaker 3: to look like Hoc is not Lee. She was just
Speaker 3: dressed like an ordinary housewife. And her line was, Oh
Speaker 3: my car broke down and I have to pick up
Speaker 3: my kids. Can you give me a lift? Pretty clever
Speaker 3: so and she also imagined she had no car, and
Speaker 3: I think the main reason was not only that they
Speaker 3: they could not afford a car, but she could not
Speaker 3: get a license and she was wanted. There was a
Speaker 3: warried out for her arrest, and she had already done
Speaker 3: time in jail for something that really, she would say,
Speaker 3: was not her fault that happened to her. So she's
Speaker 3: walking like biblically along the highways and the blazing sun,
Speaker 3: or sometimes taking the Voutran bus line. So she's like
Speaker 3: a creature from the way back in the past, and
Speaker 3: everyone else is speeding by in cars. I would imagine
Speaker 3: that that alone could cause a permanent resentment and a
Speaker 3: burn on a low boil that got hotter. So that
Speaker 3: was her mo and it was simple and it was smart.
Speaker 2: You talk about the treatment, and we were already talking
Speaker 2: about this to treatment of prostitutes in general. I'm sure
Speaker 2: that people don't know. And this is what some of
Speaker 2: the promise of this book is, is to fill people
Speaker 2: in on the reality of what happens, because many people still,
Speaker 2: I've heard it myself, they blame the prostitute for luring
Speaker 2: the men instead of men looking for women. And then
Speaker 2: but just the treatment of prostitutes, and also Eileen's treatment
Speaker 2: in the past, before we talk about Richard Mallory or
Speaker 2: any of the subsequent other victims.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Warner's herself has a very good line,
Speaker 3: and it's the opening page of Requiem. She said if
Speaker 3: men would keep their money in their pockets and their
Speaker 3: penises in their pants, there would be no prostitution. And
Speaker 3: this is true. It is demand that drives it, not supply,
Speaker 3: and prostitutes, with a very rare half of one percent exception,
Speaker 3: are not making a free choice. It's a forced choice
Speaker 3: in order to eat. And the majority of prostitutes in
Speaker 3: the world, and certainly in the United States, are coming
Speaker 3: from highly dysfunctional, impoverished backgrounds. They're very often women of color,
Speaker 3: but not only and they are raped, beaten, prostituted at home,
Speaker 3: like this woman who's about to be federally executed, Lisa Montgomery.
Speaker 3: Her mother prostituted her to a series of men at
Speaker 3: home from childhood on or from early teenage years on.
Speaker 3: So very typically prostitutes are runaways hoping to get this
Speaker 3: awful stuff behind them, but of course they're then latched
Speaker 3: onto by pimp and they have to eat. They're homeless.
Speaker 3: Homelessness is a big problem. They don't have the children.
Speaker 3: They're ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, and the Johns want
Speaker 3: young children. They're pedophiles. Psychologically, even when a woman is
Speaker 3: over eighteen, she has to pretend to look younger, or
Speaker 3: say she's younger to be more marketable. So most prostitutes
Speaker 3: are not there because it's there because they had a
Speaker 3: choice between becoming the president of a large corporation, the
Speaker 3: president of a university, or being a street hooker or
Speaker 3: an escort service hooker or chain to the rother wool traffic.
Speaker 3: And by the way, trafficking is the same as prostitution.
Speaker 3: It's someone being trafficked for the purpose of prostitution. And
Speaker 3: this is a huge global industry. It's bigger than guns,
Speaker 3: and it's bigger than drugs, and it's female and sometimes
Speaker 3: male children, male sexual slavery. This is the biggest slave
Speaker 3: trade that we have. But it's simply not seen that way,
Speaker 3: which is unbelievable. And the prosecutor, John Tanner, who prosecuted Lee,
Speaker 3: and who himself had been Ted Bundy's spiritual adviser, he
Speaker 3: has gone on record, he's written some articles in Florida
Speaker 3: newspapers describing prostitutes as vile, as evil, as causing healthy,
Speaker 3: wonderful family men, not only causing them to go astray,
Speaker 3: but giving them diseases, when it's quite the other way around.
Speaker 3: So you're right, the general view of prostitution is. She
Speaker 3: loves it. It's going to end well for her. All
Speaker 3: of the film Pretty Woman, she's bringing men down, not
Speaker 3: that men are demanding it, but she's demanding of them
Speaker 3: their money. Why because women are not equal economically anywhere
Speaker 3: in the world. And yes, we have fabulous exceptions, but
Speaker 3: that's the rule. So something like war zones, genocidal war zones, poverty, homelessness,
Speaker 3: parents sell their girls. Hempce trick them by saying, you
Speaker 3: come to America or to wherever, and you'll have a
Speaker 3: wonderful job and you'll meet a great man, he'll marry you,
Speaker 3: and everything will be terrific. And they fall for this
Speaker 3: from Eastern Europe, from Russia, from Ukraine, from Thailand, and
Speaker 3: then no exit from hell, and they are gang raped
Speaker 3: to season them and break their spirits, and then they're
Speaker 3: addicted to drugs which they cannot do without. And then
Speaker 3: most of the money that they earned goes to the
Speaker 3: pimp and the brothel keeper and the landlord, etc. So
Speaker 3: you don't get rich from this so called profession which
Speaker 3: again I repeat, it's not work like sex work. And
Speaker 3: here a group of US, a large number of US,
Speaker 3: part company with the feminists who believe that women have
Speaker 3: the right to sell anything, babies from their womb, any
Speaker 3: of their orifice for someone else's sexual pleasure for money.
Speaker 3: I see it as slavery and is a forced choice
Speaker 3: and is extremely violent as a war zone, a killing field,
Speaker 3: and not as like you don't see the daughters. This
Speaker 3: is often a very very wealthy, civilized families choosing to
Speaker 3: be prostitutes. Yes some do, but that's not who's out there.
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Speaker 2: murder to start your Ritual today. Now, Phyllis, we were
Speaker 2: getting a little off track because what people have always
Speaker 2: looked at, and of course that's why she was convicted,
Speaker 2: and is that we have to get to the reality.
Speaker 2: The idea that people will accept the idea that a
Speaker 2: prostitute has shot seven or more men in self defense
Speaker 2: is beyond an uphill climb, despite the cases that you
Speaker 2: cite and you bring to the defense team. Let's talk
Speaker 2: about Richard Mallory and talk about where Eileen and Tyr
Speaker 2: were in the relationship when Richard Mallory came in into
Speaker 2: their lives.
Speaker 3: Richard Mallory was a hormonger, and a pornography addict who,
Speaker 3: amazingly for a white man, did many years in a
Speaker 3: jail for attempting to rape probably the wrong man's wife.
Speaker 3: And this is while he was married and happily married.
Speaker 3: He just couldn't get these visions out of his head.
Speaker 3: So he was not an upstanding guy. And the jury
Speaker 3: never got to hear about his lifestyle and his past
Speaker 3: imprisonment for sex addiction because quote, the dead man is
Speaker 3: never on trial. So Mallory had just been partying with
Speaker 3: two other prostitutes who were one of whom was picked
Speaker 3: up for his murder, but was ultimately let go because
Speaker 3: the they were like warners because they too were prostitutes,
Speaker 3: and so they were made for his murder. Now, I
Speaker 3: believe Lee's very credible description of that night, which would
Speaker 3: have been in nineteen eighty nine, the end of November
Speaker 3: or the very beginning of December, even though she herself
Speaker 3: recanted this. I didn't believe the recantation. And I've been
Speaker 3: trained as a clinical psychologist, and I was a professor
Speaker 3: of psychology at so you know, I had in my
Speaker 3: bones I believed her. The first trial. I found her
Speaker 3: moving incredible. She was the only defense witness for herself.
Speaker 3: Nobody else was called, and I mean none of our
Speaker 3: pro bono potential dream team were called, and they were
Speaker 3: He picked her up and by and bye. They decided
Speaker 3: that yeah, they'd have sex, and Lee gave him her
Speaker 3: prices and he before he tied her up and began
Speaker 3: to brutally torment her and do terrible things to her.
Speaker 3: He said, well, he doesn't really have the money, so
Speaker 3: that's already he's going to rate me. He's going to
Speaker 3: rate me without paying me. That's way out of line
Speaker 3: to her, and she told him that, but he tied
Speaker 3: her up, He tied her to the steering wheel, and
Speaker 3: he had his terrible way with her. And when he
Speaker 3: Lee was very rigid cognitively. And I give some examples
Speaker 3: of this in the book, Like she would get on
Speaker 3: the bus and she'd say, you have to stop right
Speaker 3: here where the bus driver always stopped, but no, the
Speaker 3: bus driver had a new mandate and he couldn't. And
Speaker 3: she went crazy because it had to be just on
Speaker 3: the line. So imagine if a guy, a John wanted
Speaker 3: something that was way out of line to her or
Speaker 3: took it without her consents, she would get pretty enraged.
Speaker 3: I mean but really very enraged, not normally enraged. So
Speaker 3: Mallory was in that category, and she finally, most miraculously
Speaker 3: decided to save her own life because she figured he
Speaker 3: was not only to kill her, but she said, he's
Speaker 3: going to dissect me or some weird stuff. So she
Speaker 3: managed in a split second to get to her shopping
Speaker 3: bag in which she kept her gun, and she started shooting,
Speaker 3: and he didn't stop coming at her, and she kept shooting.
Speaker 3: Unlike a male serial killer. She covered his body up
Speaker 3: so that it wouldn't be pecked at by birds, and
Speaker 3: she didn't want to run over him, so she then
Speaker 3: drove his car, took whatever trophies or money he had
Speaker 3: in the car, lied to Tyrea and said, well, you
Speaker 3: know a friend of mine. You let me the car,
Speaker 3: we have to keep it out of side. His wife
Speaker 3: will get jealous. Whatever story she made up. And for
Speaker 3: a while she didn't go right back to work. She
Speaker 3: was spooked. What happened spooked her, and as I said before,
Speaker 3: she couldn't go to the police, so she just drank
Speaker 3: a whole lot and continued on with life as she
Speaker 3: knew it to be. So Mallory was really bad guy,
Speaker 3: and as in his treatment of women. And he had
Speaker 3: an ex girlfriend, Jackie Davis, who was willing to testify
Speaker 3: to this. But of course, quote the dead man is
Speaker 3: not on trial. So in so many different ways, the
Speaker 3: trial was not just or fair. And when you compare
Speaker 3: it to the trials of male serial killers, oh there's
Speaker 3: no comparison, because they who kill mainly prostitutes between seventeen
Speaker 3: to one hundred women, they will get life sentences, not
Speaker 3: necessarily execution, legal execution, and it takes the juries a
Speaker 3: while to make these decisions, like in Ted Bundy's case,
Speaker 3: also in Florida, but in Mornos's case, they decided very
Speaker 3: quickly guilty unanimously in one hour and a half and
Speaker 3: death sentence in another hour and a half. You know,
Speaker 3: so being perceived. After the defense asked for a change
Speaker 3: of venue, they were not granted that Ted Bundy was
Speaker 3: granted a change of venue to Miami from where he
Speaker 3: was first on trial. And everyone had been reading all
Speaker 3: about everything that she had done and the depiction. I
Speaker 3: was told by feminists in Florida who worked with rape
Speaker 3: victims and battered women, you know they're.
Speaker 5: Going to fry her.
Speaker 3: For every woman that joined the National Organization of Women
Speaker 3: in Florida. She's going to pay the price because she's
Speaker 3: not just a prostitute. She's a lesbian prostitute. This is
Speaker 3: unheard of in this area, in these areas, these counties
Speaker 3: of Florida, which are not cosmopolitan Miami. Everybody's gay, everything
Speaker 3: is happy, everything goes. These are much more traditional areas,
Speaker 3: and I'm not judging them. That doesn't mean it's bad
Speaker 3: at all. It's just that it would view someone like
Speaker 3: her as a swamp creature from hell. And she's the
Speaker 3: real Thelma and Louise. Before the movie opened, she was
Speaker 3: there doing this before all the films that have since
Speaker 3: been cheered on with women assassins, batted, wives who kill. Finally,
Speaker 3: there's a huge number of films that have now made
Speaker 3: it into the common culture, and she preceded most of them,
Speaker 3: which is kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: Wow, preceding Hollywood in that fantasy world. But let's talk
Speaker 2: about Tyrie, because really it's it's not fair to compare.
Speaker 2: I mean, except in a couple of ways with Bundy.
Speaker 2: The trial, Bundy didn't have a Tyria Moore.
Speaker 3: Bundy, Are you kidding? He had so many fans and
Speaker 3: he married somebody who bore his child.
Speaker 2: No, that's not what I mean. That's not what I mean.
Speaker 2: What I mean is that what I mean is that
Speaker 2: you have you have this incredible thing to overcome in
Speaker 2: terms of a rape defense, where even if it were
Speaker 2: proven to Richard Mallory, were it was self defense in
Speaker 2: that case, that it was based on her confession. Now,
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is that this case is completely complicated
Speaker 2: by having Tyrea in there, and then the approach by police,
Speaker 2: and then of course the phone calls in the confession
Speaker 2: and the reason for the confession that Lee says and
Speaker 2: admits that that was the reason for her confession. So
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is it's it's much different when you
Speaker 2: have the pressure on Tyrea after she is told and
Speaker 2: we didn't mention this, she is told by Lee that
Speaker 2: she has killed Richard Mallory. Let's talk about the Let's
Speaker 2: talk about the relationship with Tyrea and Lee after Richard Mallory,
Speaker 2: and then what happens in terms of behavior and conduct
Speaker 2: from Lee before we lead, before we find out where
Speaker 2: the police finally catch up with these people based on
Speaker 2: composite drawings, and then that pressure on Tyrea changes everything,
Speaker 2: doesn't it.
Speaker 3: I think that Tyria didn't believe her. She thought she
Speaker 3: was the biggest liar and a bullshit artist. Are excellent,
Speaker 3: That's what Tyrea told me. But eventually she began to
Speaker 3: think it might be true because Lee would come back
Speaker 3: to their motel room or their lodging and she'd have
Speaker 3: another car, and she'd have a want of cash, and
Speaker 3: she'd have a ring, maybe big size mail ring. So
Speaker 3: I think over time Tyrea actually got scared. She wasn't
Speaker 3: right away again, but she eventually got scared and she
Speaker 3: went back to her family. She had a very large family,
Speaker 3: and Lee was totally broken up about this. And then
Speaker 3: the cops found Tyrea and basically threatened her with arrest, conspiracy.
Speaker 3: She knew about it, and she didn't come forward. She's
Speaker 3: going to be tried for murder. And to get out
Speaker 3: of it, she had a start calling Lee, which she did,
Speaker 3: and they taped the calls. There was a wire tap
Speaker 3: from the jail. Lee kept saying, wait a minute, wait
Speaker 3: a minute, is this being taped? Are you really in trouble?
Speaker 3: And Tyria, reading her lines that the police gave her, said,
Speaker 3: oh baby, you know they're coming after me. They're coming
Speaker 3: after my family. I didn't do anything. This is not right,
Speaker 3: and eventually lisaid, don't worry, I'll take care of it.
Speaker 3: So I call that chapter a fool for love. I mean,
Speaker 3: she confessed for love, and Tyria not only helped entrap
Speaker 3: her to save her own skin, But I mean Tyria
Speaker 3: was seen, not ditch. She was seen driving wildly in
Speaker 3: one of the cars, and then they had an accident.
Speaker 3: She was witnessed, so she was culpable, and she was
Speaker 3: legitimately frightened and was willing to turn on Lee to
Speaker 3: get the heat off her. And she did not commit
Speaker 3: the murders, presumably anyway. So what made Lee crazy was
Speaker 3: not Tyrea's betrayal. What made her crazy was that the
Speaker 3: cops allegedly were cutting deals for a movie before they
Speaker 3: captured her, and Tyrea was in on it. So Lee's
Speaker 3: presiding obsession thereafter was the crooked cops. Sometimes she'd say,
Speaker 3: what she wrote this law review article or whatever I
Speaker 3: wrote about her case, It was very good, but you
Speaker 3: got to get the cops. You got to get the cops,
Speaker 3: you know, And what does that mean? That means the
Speaker 3: authority figures the police officers who in her past would
Speaker 3: have said listen, I'm a cop and you're gonna give
Speaker 3: me sex or I'm gonna arrest you and I'm not
Speaker 3: going to pay you. Right. So she saw the cops
Speaker 3: in general and authority figures in general as corrupt and
Speaker 3: wanted to get them, and this was one of her
Speaker 3: main obsessions after she was captured. So Kyria, she got
Speaker 3: scared and the cops had her, and the cops used
Speaker 3: her and it worked.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about this dream team and what you were
Speaker 2: tempting to do and how you were trying to do
Speaker 2: that with these expert witnesses, but also that, yeah, let's
Speaker 2: talk about that that what you tempted to do in
Speaker 2: the team that you assembled to be able.
Speaker 1: To do that.
Speaker 3: What our hope was was that if a jury could
Speaker 3: understand how violent prostitution is and how if they could
Speaker 3: understand what one rape could do to a woman, imagine
Speaker 3: being raped every day a quarter of a million times
Speaker 3: in your life or more, you could jump out of
Speaker 3: your mind, you could not know any more where you are,
Speaker 3: You could decide finally to fight back. All of these
Speaker 3: are possible. But a jury uneducated would never get that ever,
Speaker 3: and they didn't. So was Lee already so drunk she
Speaker 3: didn't know what she was doing. Well, to some extent, yeah,
Speaker 3: you could say that was she so permanently traumatized and
Speaker 3: angry and super vigilant. I mean, Tyrieus said that Lee
Speaker 3: would never let anyone get anything over on her, And
Speaker 3: that was a very important sentence for me because when
Speaker 3: I profiled her the kind of serial killer she is,
Speaker 3: she unlike male serial killers, didn't go for vulnerable, younger,
Speaker 3: smaller people like girls and women. No. No, she punched up.
Speaker 3: It's unheard of. Yeah, she punched up, and that means
Speaker 3: she went for men who were taller and heavier and
Speaker 3: to some extent older but not always a lot older
Speaker 3: than she was, and she took them down. This unheard of.
Speaker 3: So she was always angry and always arguing, and she
Speaker 3: picked fights with everyone. Tyrea said it was too embarrassing
Speaker 3: to be in public with her, so when they went
Speaker 3: out to a bar together, Tyrea was totally but silent,
Speaker 3: said nothing, talk to no one, and we would often
Speaker 3: embarrass them. So what does this tell us about about Lee?
Speaker 3: Warnos tells us that she's got a borderline personality, which
Speaker 3: is the diagnosis for an incest victim. It tells us
Speaker 3: that she's got a not necessarily a sociopathic personality, but
Speaker 3: a borderline personality and a social personality disorder. She didn't
Speaker 3: know the rules at all of straight life. Nothing. She
Speaker 3: couldn't conduct herself civilly. She didn't know the rules when
Speaker 3: she made her confession. And I watched it and I
Speaker 3: read it a number of times. It was a video.
Speaker 3: She fought these cops for her John's like her friends.
Speaker 3: They offered her coffee, they offered her cigarettes, and she
Speaker 3: was just now beginning to detox from alcohol lifetime's worth.
Speaker 3: And she was so soft spoken and husky voiced, and
Speaker 3: she really was acting. She thought these guys were go
Speaker 3: to help her. She didn't know why she would need
Speaker 3: a lawyer. She goes, I'm going to tell you the truth.
Speaker 3: What do I need a lawyer for? And they did
Speaker 3: not provide one until very late in that confession. So
Speaker 3: let me tell you. Well, maybe I shouldn't say all
Speaker 3: of it, but she's There are a lot of women
Speaker 3: who are as abused as Aileen Mornos was. They don't
Speaker 3: become serial killers. They may go down softly and slowly
Speaker 3: or fast, but they don't kill anyone. She did. And
Speaker 3: there's many women who are serial killers. She's not the
Speaker 3: first one. She's a unique one, but not the first.
Speaker 3: And they're known as black widows. I'm sure you know this.
Speaker 3: And they will kill husband after husband or aging patient
Speaker 3: after aging patient for insurance policy money or real property.
Speaker 3: And they will also kill girls who they lure into
Speaker 3: prostitution if they try to run away sometimes if they don't.
Speaker 3: So women kill it's not as if we was the
Speaker 3: first ever. But unlike male serial killers, she didn't do
Speaker 3: this for sexual reasons, and she didn't pick on men
Speaker 3: because she wanted to mutilate them and pose them and
Speaker 3: obscene positions. She's the one that covered their bodies and
Speaker 3: didn't want to run over them by accident. So she
Speaker 3: may have been really angry at men in the way
Speaker 3: that male serial killers are permanently angry at women who
Speaker 3: they think are prostitutes, and they hate being dependent on
Speaker 3: women and want to triumph over female sexuality and birth
Speaker 3: giving capacities. But she didn't organize her kills, and I
Speaker 3: had a theory of what may have happened after the
Speaker 3: first one with Richard Mallory, So what she did was unique.
Speaker 3: You don't you don't have women going around or prostitutes.
Speaker 3: Some may have killed a temple John. There are some
Speaker 3: historical examples I give, but it's very rare and it's
Speaker 3: not as you pointed out seven and the men who
Speaker 3: who le killed three with John's. The others may not
Speaker 3: have been The others may have committed a cardinal error
Speaker 3: of she needed their money, she needed to eat, she
Speaker 3: had to pay the rent. Right, but they didn't want
Speaker 3: sex with her, They didn't want to give her their money.
Speaker 3: That could have been her own personal demented Affirmative action
Speaker 3: program right, so that but some of them were John's
Speaker 3: because their bodies were were naked or naked from the
Speaker 3: waist down, or in Mallory's case, you wouldn't take off
Speaker 3: his clothes, but his belt and his pants were twisted
Speaker 3: to the side. So and she didn't do this. So
Speaker 3: she's a unique serial killer.
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Speaker 2: Now you talked about the trial and she'd never got
Speaker 2: to break her whole life, and she never got to
Speaker 2: break at trial. She never got a break with the prosecutor.
Speaker 2: You talked about his fervent prosecution, Trish, like you said,
Speaker 2: never the prosecutor a pardon me. The defense attorney never
Speaker 2: called any of your expert witnesses whatsoever in this trial.
Speaker 3: But that may not mean that she threw the case.
Speaker 3: It may mean that Lee was just too difficult to clients.
Speaker 3: It may mean that Trish couldn't see your way through,
Speaker 3: she couldn't think out of the box. I means she
Speaker 3: is one of the boys who is used to representing
Speaker 3: men who rape and men who kill women mainly, and
Speaker 3: here was a woman. What was she going to How
Speaker 3: is she going to handle this? If she won would
Speaker 3: her position be and I'm just guessing this, this may
Speaker 3: not be true. What would her position be in among
Speaker 3: the Old Boys network that she's part of. She's got
Speaker 3: off the die Korps. Where's the win and net? And also,
Speaker 3: although I think that Lee was a credible and sympathetic
Speaker 3: witness on her own behalf, she, as I said, doesn't
Speaker 3: stop cursing. And in my opinion, by the time they
Speaker 3: executed her, she was legally insane. I said to her,
Speaker 3: you know, long before this, you could do an insanity defense,
Speaker 3: and she was very insulted and she said, never, I
Speaker 3: won't you know you? I said, I think you qualify.
Speaker 3: But she didn't want that, and there was a she
Speaker 3: didn't want people prying into her mind or finding fault
Speaker 3: with her minds. It was interesting thing. And do I
Speaker 3: think that it would have worked? Not sure. I'm sure
Speaker 3: Trisha thought of this also when Lee refused to do it.
Speaker 3: Do I think that any statemental asylum like Chattahoochee in
Speaker 3: Florida would ever have let her out? No? I don't
Speaker 3: think so, and they would have drugged her up. But
Speaker 3: good however, to be then on death row in isolation
Speaker 3: for so many years, it made it crazy. It makes
Speaker 3: a lot of I mean, she both found God, she
Speaker 3: found Christ, and she went crazy. They were poisoning her food.
Speaker 3: There were sonic graves coming into her head. The lawyers
Speaker 3: who good meaning folk got for her, they were against her.
Speaker 3: They were part of the CIA, or the FBI or
Speaker 3: out of space. And I thought, you know, we're not
Speaker 3: supposed to execute the insane. Am I wrong?
Speaker 2: I was going to ask this question. This is reading
Speaker 2: this book has given me this question. You see the again,
Speaker 2: she's a public defender, Trish, and she can't afford but
Speaker 2: one expert witness for the seven Trials that Iden will
Speaker 2: be a leader, will be going. We're undergoing. And so
Speaker 2: how important was that two of those victims after Richard
Speaker 2: Mallory were law enforcement And how important was it that
Speaker 2: the women were adamant and some of these guys had reputations,
Speaker 2: they were successful people, that they were adamant not to
Speaker 2: besmirch those people's reputations. How important was the first law
Speaker 2: enforcement may be involved?
Speaker 3: Importance? I would say it was important, But remember Lee,
Speaker 3: the outlaw is the kind of outlaw that Americans become
Speaker 3: fans of, like Billieve the kids, or there's an untold
Speaker 3: number of cults that follow killers, murderers of large numbers
Speaker 3: of human beings. So she represented, mythically someone who was
Speaker 3: meant to die unknown, but who became famous for killing
Speaker 3: and warners has a lot of fans. I was very
Speaker 3: surprised to discover this. I was not a fan. I
Speaker 3: was a feminist, abolitionist who wanted to have certain principles
Speaker 3: understood a lot better in our world. And ask me.
Speaker 2: Another question, the idea that she again that I don't
Speaker 2: know if she's a folk hero, but I know that
Speaker 2: what I have seen and I have not looked at
Speaker 2: this except just with posting about this program, that there
Speaker 2: was a lot of sympathy. There are many people have
Speaker 2: gone out of the way to express that she had
Speaker 2: this horrible life and never had a chance. Right from
Speaker 2: the beginning. This is the kind of sentiment that's expressed
Speaker 2: about Lee.
Speaker 3: Warno's not in the courtroom. Not in the courtroom, and Trish,
Speaker 3: you're right, she had. Trish did not handle any of
Speaker 3: the other cases. Because of how the first trial ended up,
Speaker 3: Lee decided, with her unerring inter thing to make always
Speaker 3: the wrong decision for herself. She allowed a really creepy
Speaker 3: lawyer to take her cases over, and she pled them out.
Speaker 3: She was not going to try. She was not going
Speaker 3: to go on trial again because she saw that there
Speaker 3: would be no justice for Harwai Wei's time, and she
Speaker 3: thought that she could then die, that she'll just tell
Speaker 3: the state of Floria to kill her. I said, no, no,
Speaker 3: once they have you, it's up to them when not you.
Speaker 3: But she didn't understand that. So Trish did have an
Speaker 3: Elizabeth McMahon, a doctor psychologist, and she had another witness
Speaker 3: who did refer to her limited and primitive childlike being
Speaker 3: and to her bad breaks in life. But it made
Speaker 3: no difference. It made no difference at all. That jury
Speaker 3: wasn't going to buy into any you know, there can't
Speaker 3: be true justice without some mercy. She didn't get any mercy,
Speaker 3: and many prostitutes don't. When male serial killers kill them,
Speaker 3: we don't even learn their names. We just remember the
Speaker 3: names of their killers. So and you know, Trisha also
Speaker 3: referred to her hard childhood and her hard life. It
Speaker 3: made no difference. Tanna portrayed her successfully as a quote
Speaker 3: predatory prostitute whose quote appetite for lust and control had
Speaker 3: taken a lethal term, as someone who and this is
Speaker 3: really rich who quote had been exercising control for years
Speaker 3: over then and who quote killed for power, for full
Speaker 3: and ultimate control. End of quote. I'm quoting him directly.
Speaker 3: So this was why I wanted a jury to learn
Speaker 3: what prostitution is and what prostitution does. They didn't have
Speaker 3: that opportunity.
Speaker 2: What about the effects. I always wondered about this as well.
Speaker 2: She has never done any serious crime, petty crime. She's
Speaker 2: been convicted of crimes that were just blunders. He works
Speaker 2: for limited funds. You know, her services don't fetch incredible
Speaker 2: amount of money. No, she doesn't own anything and has
Speaker 2: never lived anywhere and believes survival is well it is
Speaker 2: for her just day to day at a motel which
Speaker 2: he's always scraping together funds, has no car, like I
Speaker 2: say it resents that has a bicycle, And she's doing
Speaker 2: all these things because she finally has a love in
Speaker 2: her life of someone that accepts her. They hang around
Speaker 2: with each other all the time, they hang out. How
Speaker 2: important was this at some point these Again I won't
Speaker 2: dispute of Richard Mallory and her self defense, but at
Speaker 2: some point is it at least a factor that she
Speaker 2: wants to please and provide for her lover.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what Lee said, and that's what she believed
Speaker 3: to be true. Tyrea told me the opposite, and I
Speaker 3: truly I think Lee wouldn't have given up hooking no
Speaker 3: matter what, because this was her forte, this was her game,
Speaker 3: this was her survival, this was what she was used to.
Speaker 3: These were fake relationships that may have been as close
Speaker 3: as she could come to a real relationship, and so
Speaker 3: I don't think she would have given up hooking. But
Speaker 3: I do think that Tyrea may indeed have me telling
Speaker 3: me the truth, saying, look, I didn't wanted to do it.
Speaker 3: I told her to stop, she wouldn't stop. I would
Speaker 3: have worked two jobs, but the two jobs that Tyria
Speaker 3: would have worked wouldn't have brought in as much money
Speaker 3: as Lee could bring it. Not that that was a
Speaker 3: huge sum, but Tyrea unskilled labor, you know, cleaning motel rooms,
Speaker 3: maybe working a cash register. I don't know. So I
Speaker 3: think both things are true, and they are opposite truths.
Speaker 3: What I wanted to say about cult followings, even though
Speaker 3: I do write about it, because I was shocked to
Speaker 3: discover it that Wikipedia in the entry for her birthplace Troy, Michigan,
Speaker 3: lists her as one of their notable people, along with
Speaker 3: a whole of check it out, Hall of Fame baseball player,
Speaker 3: a Tony Award winning actor, an HL defenseman, a pit
Speaker 3: you know. So she's come a kind of folk hero.
Speaker 3: Even though her life was sordid and tragic and beyond agonizing,
Speaker 3: she's now a folk hero and people are buying on
Speaker 3: Etsy T shirts with her image on it and dirt
Speaker 3: where her ashes were scattered under a tree in Michigan.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: But what is the what is the what is the attention,
Speaker 2: what is the what is the focus of their admiration?
Speaker 3: They view her as an outlaw and nobody who was
Speaker 3: meant to die anonymously, but who instead became a somebody,
Speaker 3: a woman who gave the royal finger to authority, who
Speaker 3: even took down cops. She was a biker style rebel.
Speaker 3: That's and people are going to the last resort at
Speaker 3: the bar where she was arrested and where she hung out,
Speaker 3: and they have destination vacations at the mote which is
Speaker 3: now renamed that she once lived at. So that's another
Speaker 3: whole discussion that we could have. What is really going
Speaker 3: on there?
Speaker 2: I'm sure the Monster movie with the Charlie's thereon help
Speaker 2: that mythology along its way.
Speaker 3: And thereon as a brilliant actress, and she impersonated her
Speaker 3: body language very very well, but didn't get inside her.
Speaker 3: And of course the character played by Christina Ricki is
Speaker 3: nothing like the real Tyreea.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not in this. I know it's hard to
Speaker 2: do and it's impossible to do, really, but you do
Speaker 2: attempt to sort of analyze this because you say you
Speaker 2: immediately didn't think of her as a serial killer. You
Speaker 2: thought of it as a platform to be able to
Speaker 2: express some revolutionary ideas. But in the end she was
Speaker 2: a serial killer. What end analysis for you? If there
Speaker 2: can be?
Speaker 3: Well? Like Anne Rule, I am haunted by this fact.
Speaker 3: Ann Rule, the Great Late Ann Rule wrote about Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: She was once his friend. She couldn't believe who he
Speaker 3: really turned out to be. So I, in my way,
Speaker 3: who looked at her as a victim. You wanted to
Speaker 3: use her for political purpose, to help women, womankind and justice,
Speaker 3: and only gradually came to understand, oh, hey, hey, she's
Speaker 3: a serial killer and I was close to a serial killer.
Speaker 3: That's kind of interesting. I mean that's terrifying. I'm new
Speaker 3: to true crime. Now I'm committed, but this is the
Speaker 3: first such book I've ever written. So I managed to
Speaker 3: block out until it was utterly necessary for me to
Speaker 3: look at what she had done and try to explain
Speaker 3: why and how she had done this. So for me,
Speaker 3: it was an adventure in figuring it all.
Speaker 2: Out before I let you go, tell us a fascinating
Speaker 2: story of how many years it took you, why it
Speaker 2: took nineteen years, tell us that agreement you had with yourself.
Speaker 3: Well, I really wanted to make a difference in terms
Speaker 3: of her trial and when I couldn't, and I wrote
Speaker 3: several op ed pieces and then a couple of law
Speaker 3: review articles. I'm not a lawyer, but I did that,
Speaker 3: and I put it aside. We had a correspondence and
Speaker 3: I published some of our letters in a chapter. I
Speaker 3: call them love letters. And I didn't want to. Trish
Speaker 3: was surrounded by media and she didn't trust anyone, and
Speaker 3: she thought that I would also write something immediately and
Speaker 3: blow her case. And I said, I'll sign, I'll sign
Speaker 3: a legal document. You know that I won't do anything,
Speaker 3: you know, for twenty years or until after everything is over,
Speaker 3: And whatever that made mean, and she didn't have me
Speaker 3: do it, but I don't think she ever trusted me,
Speaker 3: and I set it aside. I had other things to do.
Speaker 3: I wrote many, many other books during this time, and
Speaker 3: then literally as I was renovating my apartment, a box
Speaker 3: fell off the shelf. I opened it and in it
Speaker 3: were about five chapters that I'd written long ago, and
Speaker 3: I couldn't put it down. It was wonderful. I said, Oh,
Speaker 3: my God, and how timely and how burning these issues
Speaker 3: still are. And then I resurrected my entire Warnos archive,
Speaker 3: which meant they were on floppy discs. I had to
Speaker 3: convert them and then print them out. And then I
Speaker 3: read every scrap the vois Deer of the jury, every
Speaker 3: legal document I could lay my hands on, every other
Speaker 3: book written about her, magazine articles, and then the interviews.
Speaker 3: I interviewed everybody, and I have transcripts of the interviews.
Speaker 3: And then I realize, Okay, now I'm going to do it.
Speaker 3: And as I was doing it from twenty nineteen to
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, you know, part of the time Quarantines, I
Speaker 3: understood how unique she was as a serial killer. I
Speaker 3: didn't pay close attention before I was writing round the
Speaker 3: clock intensely for a year. So that's why it took
Speaker 3: so long, because I really put it out of mind,
Speaker 3: out of sight. I let it go for a while.
Speaker 2: Well, it was well worth the wait. I want to
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on and talking about
Speaker 2: Requiem for a Female Serial Killer. It's going to be
Speaker 2: released tomorrow. Is that not correct? And can you tell
Speaker 2: us about your website as well?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, w W W Phyllis p h y l
Speaker 3: l I S DASH or hyphen c h E s
Speaker 3: l e R. It's out there and I've got some
Speaker 3: very very nice endorsements to this book up on my homepage,
Speaker 3: and hopefully there'll be some reviews and I'll have that
Speaker 3: up soon enough to.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, it's a brilliant offering. I want to thank
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on and talking about Requiem
Speaker 2: for a Female serial Killer. It's a brilliant, brilliant offering.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Phyllis Chessler. It's been Hello.
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