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Sign up now at 24 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:57.679 Chumba Casino dot com. 25 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.880 No prigs necessary. Dao where if I lost the terms 26 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:00.719 of elock. 27 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.319 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 28 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:21.799 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 30 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.640 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:48.280 Good Evening. This psychological crime thriller takes us inside the 34 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.519 mind of a unique female serial killer, a prostitute who 35 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:56.159 murdered seven adult men, a case with which the author 36 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.560 was intimately involved. The issues raised by this my profile 37 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.959 criminal case remain unresolved to this day. Women, even prostitutes, 38 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.639 have the right to self defense in theory, but in 39 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.639 practice the story is more complicated. This book will challenge 40 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:16.400 everything you ever thought about prostitutes, serial killers, and justice 41 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.960 in America. Alien Warnos is a damaged soul, a genuine 42 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:24.240 American outlaw, a symbol of women's rage, a symbol of 43 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.439 what can happen to severely abused children, and of how 44 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:32.520 our justice system fails women. Chessler's involvement with a serial 45 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:35.840 killer has haunted her ever since. She speaks in Aileen 46 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.639 Warnos's voice as well as in her own, and delivers 47 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:46.000 an incisive, original, and dramatic portrait of a cognitively impaired, traumatized, 48 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.159 and alcoholic woman who endured so much pain in her 49 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:53.639 short life. When she had had enough, the results were deadly. 50 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:59.240 This is a poignant, sometimes humorous, never before told, behind 51 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:03.800 the scenes tale well. Warnos's story is handled with great sensitivity, 52 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.759 but also with realistic detachment by Chesler as she probes 53 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.120 the telling moment. The telling phrase was Warno's suffering from 54 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:15.560 post traumatic stress after a life lived on a killing field? 55 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:20.120 Was she also born evil? So many prostitutes have been 56 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.599 torture murdered by serial killers? How did Warnos once pray 57 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.439 become a predator? Requiem for a Female serial Killer will 58 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.319 also haunt you. It won't let you put it down. 59 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.000 Take a walk on the wild side The Ghost of 60 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.919 Alien Warnos Beckons. The book that we're featuring this evening 61 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.800 is Requiem for a Female Serial Killer with my special guest, 62 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:47.199 journalist and author Philip Chesler. Welcome to the program, and 63 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:50.879 thank you so much for this interview. Philip Phillips Chesler. 64 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:53.680 It is my pleasure to be with you. 65 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.240 Thank you so much for joining me on this to 66 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:03.240 talk about your reque for a serial killer. Now you 67 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.240 talk about you open in your book. Florida nineteen ninety 68 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:11.759 in a report, two women are being sought shooting deaths 69 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.800 of eight to twelve middle aged men lured to their 70 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:19.519 desks in Florida highways. A suspect number one, a white 71 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.920 female five foot ten, blonde hair. Suspect number two, white 72 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.360 female five foot four to five foot six, heavy build 73 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.759 and short brown hair. They are armed, in dangerous and 74 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.279 possibly the nation's first serial killers. And it was a 75 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:41.360 warning put out too men traveling off Highway one seventy five, 76 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.639 I seventy five. All of these men were strangers, not husbands, 77 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:47.720 not intimates. 78 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:49.839 You. 79 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:58.720 Soon after Alien is arrested, the Lee Carol Warnos called you. 80 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.879 A few months after she was a tell us about 81 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.000 that conversation. What was said in that short amount of time. 82 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.160 Well, first, when I first heard the announcement, I thought 83 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.439 it was a joke, It wasn't possible. And then when 84 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.720 she was captured, I thought, well okay. And what drew 85 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:26.240 me in was the hope vision that we could present 86 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:31.040 to a jury the nature of prostitution in America and globally, 87 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:36.079 which is the most extreme form of violence towards women, 88 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:40.560 and it's not understood that way. So when she called 89 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.879 me for the first time, and there's a backstory to 90 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.360 how I arranged that, I knew I would only have 91 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.519 a few seconds to get her attention. So I said, Lee, 92 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.920 I represent a feminist government in exile. We know that 93 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.839 you've been captured and we'd like to help. And she responded, 94 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.399 far fucking out. You're the women's lib right, I said yes, 95 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.720 And then she said, tell the women out there that 96 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:13.959 I'm innocent, Tell them that men hate our guts. I 97 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.439 was raped and I defended myself, and she referred to 98 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:24.639 the known I mean gerald Steno had been killing prostitutes, 99 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:29.519 mainly black cocaine addict prostitutes, all over Florida, was never 100 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.240 caught for a long time. She knew about this. The 101 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:38.800 corpses littering the highways were those of women, not of men. 102 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:45.160 So what she did ultimately was a first. As you 103 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.519 said already, she was meant to be prey, and she 104 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.800 became the first time out someone who killed in self defense. 105 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:59.639 I really believe that thereafter something changed and she became 106 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.000 a predator. So that's how it began. 107 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:09.519 Now give our audience your background at this time and 108 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.800 position at this time when you are talking to alien 109 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.040 on the telephone. What is your background in your feminist 110 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.240 activist background? Tell us about that. 111 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:24.199 Well, for since the late nineteen sixties, I've been involved 112 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.439 in all the issues as a scholar, as a professor, 113 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:34.839 and as an activist in terms of violence against women, rape, incest, 114 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:42.439 woman battering, pornography, prostitution. And I don't think that we 115 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.439 changed a lot of consciousness, but we failed also to 116 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:52.800 command our point of our abolitionist point of view, either 117 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:58.079 in the media or on campuses. So I saw her, 118 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:01.600 I didn't even think, is she is serial killer? Do 119 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:03.759 you really want to mix it up with a serial killer? 120 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.720 I only saw her as someone who'd been raped all 121 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:13.319 her life, paid to be raped eventually, who probably had 122 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:20.439 organic brain syndrome and other cognitive and neurological impairments, hustled 123 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.319 every day of her life from the time she was 124 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:28.120 quite young, like maybe nine or ten, and I go 125 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:34.240 through all of the traumatizing and tortuous experiences that she had, 126 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.759 and she was the tougher for it, and the more 127 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.840 dissociated for it. So I saw in her the opportunity 128 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:47.600 to put prostitution on trial, to put male violence and 129 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:51.679 contempt for women who are prostitutes or who they view 130 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:56.000 as if they are prostitutes, on trial. I also wanted 131 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:59.559 to have a jury here that women should have the 132 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.480 right to kill in self defense, but mainly don't the 133 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:09.840 first time that Eileen killed in self defense? What could 134 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:11.480 she have done gone to the police. There was a 135 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.320 warrant out for her arrest. She was already a criminal 136 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:18.279 by definition because she was selling sex for money. The 137 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.840 johns don't get arrested, they are not seen as criminals. 138 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.360 So there's a little movement in that area, but not 139 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.919 much really, So what could she have done? She had 140 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:32.120 to just go back to earning her daily bread, so 141 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:37.080 to speak. So I didn't even contemplate is she a 142 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.519 serial killer? If so, what kind? And it took me 143 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:46.200 years to profile the kind of very unique serial killer 144 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.720 that she is. 145 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:53.679 When did you get to when did the decision come 146 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.120 to be able to try to defend her with this 147 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.559 rape self defense? How much information did you have before 148 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:02.720 you endeavored to take upon this project. 149 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:09.080 Well, I had already written, I had written about three 150 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:15.440 cases in America from the nineteen seventies in which mainly 151 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.879 women of color had killed in self defense because they 152 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:23.240 were raped or in one instance, to avoid being raped. 153 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:28.679 And there's case law that I wanted the Florida public 154 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.559 defenders to consider because I thought it might apply. Now. 155 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:41.000 Of course, she didn't get a fair deal, a fair shake, 156 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:44.759 not in her life, and not at her first trial, 157 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:49.679 and not when she made her first confession, because the 158 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:55.519 video of that confession, when her only goal was to 159 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.559 rescue her lover who was the one who betrayed her 160 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.960 by taking the stand against her, and the cops cannily 161 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.240 set that up. And I write about what they did 162 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:12.360 and what it led to. So the fact that Lee, 163 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:16.200 that's what people call her, the fact that Lee kept 164 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:21.200 referring to she killed in self defense sixteen times in 165 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.600 that confession. The jury didn't get to hear that because 166 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:29.120 somebody edited it out of the video that the jury 167 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:34.159 was shown. So that's just one of many many examples 168 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.559 of too little justice for her. On the other hand, 169 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:41.639 I can't say, well, the public defenders through the case 170 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:47.080 because she was a hard client. She cursed like a sailor, 171 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.240 she cursed like old the men who were John's in 172 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:53.240 her life, none of whom she hated. She thought they 173 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.399 were her friends or her boyfriends. Some of them gave 174 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.919 her advice carry a gun. You know, in a fact, 175 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:04.159 you're not working, honey, you're in a war. So she 176 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:08.519 started carrying a gun, which did save her life that 177 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:13.840 first time. And this is something that I talked to 178 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.360 her about at length. She would never ever reveal the 179 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.399 details of each murder, so I had to imagine it 180 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.759 through her eyes based on what I understood about her, 181 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.679 what I had learned from talking to her and corresponding 182 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.519 with her and reading every piece of paper legal and 183 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:38.399 otherwise that I could find. And she was a very 184 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.519 quick study. Because suddenly, he is she's hearing from a 185 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:46.759 feminist who has other feminists backing her up who want 186 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.120 to put together a team, like a dream team for her. 187 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.840 She starts talking like a feminist. I was kind of 188 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:58.240 impressed and amazed. So I think that women who are 189 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:04.360 prostituted pretty much know how to say what they think 190 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.679 the customer wants to hear, and you never get to 191 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.759 know what they're really thinking. So she was quite good 192 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:16.759 at that. And I remember at a certain point I 193 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:21.600 asked her, could you please write down for me how 194 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:26.960 many times you've been raped? And she did, and then 195 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.679 she read it to me on the phone. Well, her 196 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:36.080 definition of rape was not my definition. And I've studied 197 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:40.279 rape traumas syndrome, and anyone who's listening knows that some 198 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.159 women they get raped once and it changes, it crushes 199 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.720 a bit of their soul for a while, if not forever, 200 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.159 even if they continue on with their lives. So she 201 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:56.159 how definition was when a bunch of guys, probably on 202 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.279 the young side, tie you down, tie you up, bang, 203 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:05.000 rape you, rob you, threaten to kill you, beat you up, 204 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.120 but then you live. So she was giving me examples 205 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:12.480 of this, and then she had another definition of being raped, 206 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:19.840 which was if you sell the sex, which is like 207 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:25.120 getting money for being raped, but the guy doesn't pay you. 208 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.639 That's another definition of rape to her. And after she 209 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:36.679 got through I don't know ten or fifteen, I said, 210 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.399 you can stop now because it's way off the charts, 211 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:45.120 although it's totally typical of any prostitute's life. And she says, 212 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:47.679 now I can keep going. It's okay. It doesn't bother me. 213 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.639 I'm thinking, oh my god, but it bothers me. You know, 214 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:58.639 such extreme profound violence, and she toughed it out because 215 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.159 and drank. You have to drink or take drugs and 216 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:06.159 get dissociated in order to make your way through this 217 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:06.879 war zone. 218 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.879 Let's talk about her background, because I know people have, 219 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.679 Like I said to you in the beginning before the program, 220 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:20.879 I've read all kinds of things about her horrendous upbringing. 221 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:24.559 But there are things in this book that you chronicle 222 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:27.799 that I don't think people are aware of, like that 223 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.080 she had experienced death and seen a corpse. But let's 224 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.639 go back to the everything that you found out about 225 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.679 her background and also her foray I guess into selling 226 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:41.320 sex at a young age. 227 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:52.799 Well, her biological father hung himself in jail. He was 228 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:57.759 known as a pedophile and a wife beater. A biological 229 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.679 mother who I track down in Texas and who was 230 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.600 afraid to visit her even on death row, afraid of 231 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:11.799 her daughter who had a bad, bad temper, No compassion possible. Unfortunately, 232 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:18.679 her grandparents, who were both alcoholics, ran her biological mother 233 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:23.559 out of town, and then they told Lee and her 234 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:28.240 brother Keith that they were her real parents. Whether they 235 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.879 performed a legal adoption or not, I'm not sure. I 236 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:40.799 can check and her grandfather was its Finnish origin in Michigan, 237 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.960 Troy and Rochester, Michigan where it gets pretty cold in 238 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:50.879 the winter. And she was probably difficult and rebellious, and 239 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:55.679 she was hard of hearing and visually impaired. And the grandmother, 240 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.240 who Lee claimed did really love her, never correct did 241 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:07.160 these impairments. I'm not sure why not. She managed to 242 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.799 get herself into different kinds of trouble, but her grandfather 243 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:17.319 beat her savagely for minor infractions as well as for 244 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:22.200 major infractions. And then she began she was very proud 245 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.640 that she didn't take drugs, and she didn't consider the 246 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:30.240 beer that she drank a drug. I do, and because 247 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.039 she drank a lot of it. But you know, back 248 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:39.119 in the day, she tried psychedelics, she tried grass. She 249 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.799 had to obtain them somehow when she was eight or 250 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:46.319 nine or ten, so she started getting them by having 251 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:51.599 sex with neighboring boys. And this was voluntary, she said, 252 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:56.759 this was voluntary. But then when she was about thirteen 253 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:04.920 going on fourteen, she was raped and impregnated, presumably by 254 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.000 a friend or someone who represented himself as a friend 255 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:14.759 of her father grandfather. And can you imagine what her 256 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.400 family felt here. She's someone who doesn't clean up after herself, 257 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.400 who has a bad temper, who's loud, doesn't pay attention 258 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.519 in school, can't see, can't hear very well. At the trial, 259 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:30.359 I think this was true as well. She's pregnant, so 260 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.599 she goes to the Florence Crittenden Home for unwed mothers 261 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.559 in an era when it was seen as shameful and 262 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.359 there was no question ever about keeping your baby. You 263 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.119 have to sight. Unseen baby is whisked away. And by 264 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:50.920 the way, that's the kind of torture, and it's catastrophic 265 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:55.400 and traumatic, just that that male serial killers cannot go through. 266 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.880 In many ways or in some ways, she was like 267 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:04.799 male serial killers, bullied and isolated, and she did set 268 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:11.359 two fires with her brother, but then her grandparent parents 269 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.680 threw her out and she lived in an abandoned car 270 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.720 in the snow. Now this is unheard of because where 271 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:21.359 were the social workers, Where was the police department, Where 272 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:25.400 were the other adult neighbors. Why was she not looked 273 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:29.920 after or rescued or helped in some way? Of course 274 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.240 she wasn't, and I'm not saying she was an easy ride, 275 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.640 but she was a child. She was a child, So 276 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:43.200 after she was raped and pregnated and forced to give 277 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.039 up or probably wanted to give up a baby for adoption, 278 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:50.279 that's when she told her aunt's sister Laurie that men 279 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.119 hate us, they really hate us. I don't know where 280 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.680 that sentence came from in her head, but at that 281 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.759 point she hit the road, and she was young and 282 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:08.680 good looking and blonde and Scandinavian and was hooking on 283 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.279 the road. Now, who's on the road truck is? They 284 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:17.039 could be big and rough and good time guys. Likewise, 285 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:21.960 and she was by then, at fifteen sixteen, drinking a 286 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:27.039 lot of beer and had a child sense of money. So, 287 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:31.079 for example, her brother Keith died and left her ten 288 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:36.039 thousand dollars. A regular kind of person would say, hmm, 289 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.839 maybe I could make a down payment on a house 290 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.160 or fund some education. No, she blew it in three 291 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:48.599 months on a car which was repossessed, and on beer, music, 292 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.480 and food. So I only gradually began to comprehend that maybe, 293 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:59.480 even though she was slick and smart and drew beautiful drawings, 294 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.319 that she may have had a low IQ as well, 295 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.920 not a high one. And in many ways she was 296 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.799 thinking the way a child thinks. If you have enough 297 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.960 money from the sex for a motel room for a 298 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.519 couple of nights, and for beer and food, you're okay. 299 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:24.759 So the ability to plan ahead was nonexistent, and unlike 300 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.920 many high profile male serial killers, she just left clues everywhere. 301 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:38.000 She wasn't strategic in her killings. So here you have 302 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:43.119 a child in America, a child of Michigan, who was 303 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:47.519 just allowed to disappear and make her own little way 304 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.359 in this wide wide world. And in Requiem for a 305 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.839 Female serial Killer, I do have some of her descriptions 306 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.799 which are heart rendering of what it means when guys 307 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:05.079 get rough with you, exactly what it means. I'm not 308 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.680 going to read them on the air, but you know, 309 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.920 this was her life, and she toughed it out. And 310 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:17.400 when she was in jail in Citrus County, it was 311 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:22.680 male jail and everybody was like taunting her, the male prisoners, 312 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:26.759 And she started telling me about it, and I said, 313 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.079 oh my god, how can you parent? She goes, I'm tough, 314 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:31.839 I can take it. It doesn't bother me. Let them talk, 315 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:37.240 you know. So she was from another world, not my world. 316 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:42.319 I'm privileged to lead a life of ideas and an 317 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:46.440 activist life. She didn't have that chance. And in fact 318 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:52.000 it was funny because here I came, and other feminists 319 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.519 with me who were revolutionary in our vision, and we 320 00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:00.359 wanted to overturn this bad stuff. She just wanted a 321 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.920 piece of the pie. She just wanted, you know, fair 322 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:11.559 and square our meals and her her money for her work. Different. 323 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:15.640 She was a petit bourgeois capitalist and did not understand, 324 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:20.119 could not believe why anyone, beginning with myself and others 325 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:24.599 like me, would do something for no money. She didn't 326 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:30.400 get it, So I was a fool, also not just she. 327 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:36.440 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a second. 328 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.240 With Lucky Landslots, you can get lucky just about anywhere, 329 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.880 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 330 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.720 the bride and broom? 331 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:45.599 Sorry? 332 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:46.799 Sorry, we're here. 333 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:48.920 We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost 334 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:49.480 track of time. 335 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.039 No lucky land casino with cash prizes that add up 336 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:54.599 quicker than a gets registered in. 337 00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:56.640 In luck case, I pronounce you lucky. 338 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:58.000 Thanks for free. 339 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.319 At Lucky Landslots dot com. Buses are waiting, no purchase necessary. 340 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.839 Voyd were prohibited by eight team plus terms and conditions 341 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:05.920 of flag. See website for. 342 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:14.880 Details and two for these messages. Now, Phyllis, we were 343 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:19.400 talking about just her background. She gets married when she's 344 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.200 twenty years old. Tell us about this very brief marriage. 345 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:29.279 Oh, she married Lewis Fell who she beat. She beat 346 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:33.200 him and he took out an order of protection against her, 347 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:36.599 and she was very proud that he had a lot 348 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.559 of money, but she wasn't going to stay with him 349 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:43.240 even for the money. She had a very interesting relationship 350 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.599 to money because on the one hand, she professed, I 351 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.400 don't care about it, it's not important to me. On 352 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:56.640 the other hand, once she was caught and she became 353 00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.839 notorious or famous, or she put it, I've made history, 354 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.839 then she was really obsessed with money. And I understand 355 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:09.079 that many male serial killers are likewise. So she had 356 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:12.880 two very different kinds of relationships to money. 357 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:20.119 Now, tell us about this relationship that really is more 358 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.200 than a contributing factor to these murders, but just the 359 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:28.839 high point of Aileen's life, and tell us where they 360 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:33.039 met and then how this relationship. What was the dynamics 361 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:36.000 of this relationship right from the start, and what did 362 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.400 Aileen tried to do for her new love, Tyra harry Well. 363 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:43.359 I wish I truly understood it. I also tracked Tyrea 364 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:47.599 down and interviewed her where she was living. I'm not 365 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:54.599 going to say where, but both of them agree that 366 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.960 Lee was not really a lesbian. I don't know what 367 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.200 that means exactly, because she said she loved her and 368 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.759 she confessed to save her, and she was her one 369 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.759 and only, her only living person in her life. She 370 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:13.000 didn't have family, she didn't have friends, so she had Tyria. 371 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.480 So maybe they weren't sexual. Many prostitutes are not sexual. 372 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.960 How can they be given what they must do and 373 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:28.119 what they must think? So perhaps they were bonded, joined 374 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.680 at the hip, but it wasn't necessarily or primarily sexual. 375 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.160 So it was a matter of having someone there, a 376 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.839 living being, a body in the cave, so to speak. 377 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:47.079 So Tyrea said she didn't like Lee hooking and that 378 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:53.279 she would have worked two jobs cleaning motels or doing 379 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:58.440 minimal wage work to keep Lee off the road. Lee 380 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.480 said no, Tyree wanted cigarettes and beer, and I had 381 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.559 to keep giving her money and I had to work 382 00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.359 to support her. Now I could not decide where the 383 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:14.039 truth lay between the two of them. So and Lee, 384 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.799 by the way, did not hate men. Does not hate men, 385 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:20.279 or at least that's what she said. On the one hand, 386 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:23.000 men hate our guts. But on the other hand, hey, 387 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.920 my best friends, you know, are these guys you know, 388 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:31.000 and they're like boyfriends or and she like a child, 389 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.599 she would do some things that prostitutes do not do. 390 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:39.440 She would cuddle, she would kiss, is unheard of in 391 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:45.440 the world of prostitution. So again signaling to me that 392 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:51.720 there was a primitive child trapped in this grown up body. 393 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:58.079 And she had many boyfriends before the first lesbian love 394 00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:01.480 affairs she had before Tyrea many boyfriends, and she could 395 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:07.240 not understand why they always screwed her and hit her 396 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.279 and left her. So I tried to see a lot 397 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.319 of it through her eyes, because she really didn't understand 398 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.400 why she kept getting in trouble, genuinely didn't get it 399 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.880 because she saw herself as trying hard and being forced 400 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.000 to fail. Nobody gave me a break, ever, was her line. 401 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.519