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Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasiko's I Am Dana Valley coming at

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you with the one, the only, the legendary, the certified, fantabulous,

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mister Grant Hughes. We are here to talk about the

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biggest surprises and disappointments of the season. We're looking at

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only teams and how they have performed relative to their

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over under. We'll have a different type of podcast like

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this towards the end of the season where we'll reveal

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the winner of our over under competition from our discord members.

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Which that's a good reminder to come in and get

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in our discord because you can participate next year. And

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as another reminder, the winner this year will get a

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free piece of merch of their choice, but they will

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have the option if they would like to co host

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a podcast that's some sort of a mail bag or

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maybe we'll run back. We haven't done any guests of

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players this year. Like that's basically I would say the

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equivalent financially of like a million dollars at least, what

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say you.

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Speaker 2: Grant easy and we will be paying that in a

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crypto that we have just minted that might actually have

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negative value. So a million dollars in negative value.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in the process of converting my to a

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coin hawk to a coin so that I can invest everything.

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Speaker 2: How's that investment going for you?

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Speaker 1: Pretty good? I have looked at it. I'm sure it's fine.

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Why would it be weird?

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Speaker 2: But best?

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna start with the biggest overachievers. We're going

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five and five on both ends, and we'll do a

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recap at the end. You'll see it on screen if

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you're watching on YouTube of anything else that stands out

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where you're seeing what teams are on pace to do

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relative to their over under. And like I said, this

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is in final We have about a quarter a little

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bit more, but maybe like a third of the season

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left to go. But this will be interesting to see

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which teams have performed the best so far relative to

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their respective over unders. Let's get started. First up, grant

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number one overachiever, the Cleveland Cavaliers. They're on a sixty

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seven win pace, eighteen and a half wins over their

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initial over under. Is this is this surprise you at all?

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You didn't have them earmarked for a round seventy wins

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leading into the season. What's wrong with you?

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Speaker 2: I didn't and we didn't but we did have this

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over real hard. We're not gonna do this on every

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one of them, but this was one of the easier

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ones on the board, I thought. And yeah, like, you

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shouldn't ever project a team unless you're talking about we

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might have done it for the Celtics at some point

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or the Thunder actually this year, but should This is

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a ridiculous pace, But like forty eight and a half, Like,

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why did any why would anyone go under this one?

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They just they've exceeded that, But I mean, come on, yeah.

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Speaker 1: This is I think, if anything, there was an underestimation

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of not just the talent in place, but the impact

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that Kenny Atkinson would have on their offense specifically, just

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feels way more dynamic than it was last year.

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Speaker 2: And the mobile leap happened. Yeah, but not because he

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is taking ten threes a game. It's just he got

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way better at a lot of offensive things and that

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turns out to be just as valuable.

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Speaker 1: I have a question, watch you'll save it for what

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will we get to the thunder? Let's let the mystery.

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The mystery include number two biggest surprise relative over under.

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The Detroit Pistons had a twenty five point five over under.

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They were currently on a forty three win pace, so

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that is seventeen and a half over their initial projection.

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This is not surprising given what happened, but I don't

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think either of us would have pegged them as being

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one of the biggest overachievers this year leading into the season.

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Speaker 2: No, and another coaching change situation, not necessarily from like

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a decent coach to a very good one, but from

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a coach that had no desire to be there to

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a coach that did. I mean, ironically, the Cavs coach

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shows up here and they're like, maybe so once the wait,

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wait till the Pistons hire Kenny Atkinson, I guess is

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probably the takeaway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well man, they're going to be a contender after that.

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To your credit, you did go over, I went on.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't remember.

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Speaker 1: They were the team that one of the teams that

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I said I had to pull wins from. I clearly

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did not have to, and I was clearly wrong to.

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But an excellent season by them and sets up an

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intriguing future. They were not like the Calves I think

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you could have envisioned. We did predict over, but if

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we would have said this you know in August or whatever,

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like the Calves are going to outperform their win projections

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by the most in the league. I could have been like, yeah,

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if you had have said that about the Pistons, I

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guess twenty five and a half was low enough to

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where you could at least imagine it. But it's not

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something I would have bought into.

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Speaker 2: No, if you'd said forty and a half for Detroit,

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we would have gone under so fast, you know, and

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they're gonna rush that number.

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Speaker 1: Three the Portland Trailblazers little so, this one's probably the

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most surprising one so far that we've had over under

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a twenty one and a half. They're currently on pace

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for a whopping thirty four wins. Would not shock me

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if they just end up with more than that because

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of how they've been playing over the past month or so.

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So a twelve and a half bump from their win

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loss estimate, what I this one? This gets you, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, look, some of the young guys got

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better and they have enough. I mean we did talk

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about a little little like minor victory lap for us

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because we did say, like, look how many Basically I'm

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paraphrasing us, like, oh my god, look how many guys

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they have, Like they could really just like be good,

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not good, but like they might not be terrible. I

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don't know that I would have gone this high potentially,

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but uh yeah, they you know, it's a it's a

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little of strengthen numbers kind of situation with them. They've

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got enough good players to have like some really interesting

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lineups all the time.

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Speaker 1: And they have not full I mean, the problem is

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so Scoot Henderson got a lot better. A lot of

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people probably didn't see that. Denny avvia I didn't start

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out the season too great. His fit now looks cleaner.

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Tamani Kamara is just one of the most valuable players

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in the NBA. Donovan Klayton's outperformed my expectations, even though

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he hasn't necessarily played a crap ton of minutes this year.

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And you could say, and they also haven't run their

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team like a traditional tank job. But I pointed this

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out to Moret when we were talking. They're winning games

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by buy like aside from really Jeremy Grant and then

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before he was injured, DeAndre eight and like, they're winning

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games by playing the players that he would want them

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to invest minutes in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's kind of having both ways. I

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still think we would have liked them to sell off

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some of those guys, but maybe there just was no

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market for it.

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Speaker 1: I Jeremy Grant still being marriages and he's sometimes I

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don't need to watch him dribble into another like fadeaway,

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mid range up. I'm good with that. So on this

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team number four, this man another shock here. The Nets

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Grant were projective for eighteen and a half. Their current

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win rate is thirty, and they were higher. They had

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a trade Dennis Shuter to make sure they got lower.

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That's a difference of eleven and a half h and

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they're still scrappy as hell when you watch they just

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lost to the Cavaliers, and like it was just closer

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than as any business being when you're looking at who's

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on the floor, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, way to get your pick back and not do

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anything with it, guys, Like I mean, I don't know.

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This is one of those where it's a I think

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it's if you care about like establishing a culture, this

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is a huge win because, like like you said, they

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do play really hard. I think Jordi Fernandez is going

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to be a really good coach, and there's some value

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in you know, setting a baseline for like, hey, we

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play this way. Do you think they want to be

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this far over their projected number?

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Speaker 1: No? But I also were at the point now they're

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what are they? They had the fifth worst record, they

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have the sixth worst record in the league, and that's

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what they're They're where they're projected to land. There are

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three losses in front of the Raptors, five losses in

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front of the Hornets, six in front of the Jazz,

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seven in front of the Pelicans, and I mean, no

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one's like the Wizards are. They're ten in front of

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the Like how far down can they actually tumble? Now? Though?

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So was it sort of they didn't do enough? Like,

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even though they acted fairly early relative to the rest

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of the league, did they not act early enough to

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kind of nip this in the bud?

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Speaker 2: That's the thing. Though they did, they didn't wait till

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the deadline. Phinney, Smith and Schruder were gone early. I

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just I don't know what else they really could have done.

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I could just not. I don't know, Like they they

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just play too hard and they're too well coached to

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be that bad. I guess good for them.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, the players are not gonna ever

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tank on purpose. It's on the front off and even

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the coaching staff. It's on the front office to force

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you to have players in place who aren't gonna win

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or be competitive. And just the nets have every iteration

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of them is outperformed what they look like on paper.

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So Jordi Fernandez must go, I think, is the moral

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of this story. Our final biggest surprise to be this

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good and still rank is one of the five biggest

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overachievers whatever you want to call it. The Oklahoma City

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Thunder had an over under of fifty six and a half.

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They're also currently on pace to win sixty seven, so

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they're outperforming expectations over under expectations by ten and a half.

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That is insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one of the best defenses ever an

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MVP front runner. Like, that's how you get sixty seven

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sixty plus wins. I mean, you know, they were young

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enough and there were enough new additions that I mean,

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that's the thing. Is part of the reason the over

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was easy is because of because of the new additions.

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But I guess you could talk yourself into like, oh,

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we don't know about the fit or any of That's, Like.

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Speaker 1: I just let's go one step further. Had I told

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you that chet Holmer would miss more than half the season,

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Isaiah hart Sign and him would not play together for

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basically more than half the season, and that Jalen Williams

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would be contesting more shots at the rim as it

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shit like that anybody in the league as a percentage

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of like shots that are being taken when he's on

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the court. Would you have then guessed that the Thunder

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would go on to win.

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Speaker 2: Sixty seven games and that Caruso would miss a ton

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of time too. And then even in spite of that,

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this this like defensive lynchpin that you got on the perimeter,

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your defense is still gonna run away with the best

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rating in the league. Like, I mean, some expectation defying

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here for sure, But at the same time, like we

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knew the Thunder were gonna be good.

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Speaker 1: Now, I have a question for you, since we finally

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got the Thunder only once in NBA history, it was

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the seventy three win Warriors, and then that same season

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the Spurs won sixty seven games. We've only had two

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teams win sixty seven or more games twice. Do you

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think it happens again this year the caveat being the

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Thunder and the cas They've already won over eighty percent

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of their games, but they must continue winning more than

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eighty percent of their games to do it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it'll happen, And it has everything to

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do with the size of the leads they both have

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on the teams in second in the conference. And I mean,

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it just won the historical precedent as such that you

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should bet against it. But I think, like if the

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races were closer, like as we look at it now,

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Denver is in second in the West, they're eight games

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back like the Cavs, margins five and a half over

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the Celtics, So like, I don't know, I don't think

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either of them is gonna push for a bunch of

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extra wins. Certainly like the last two weeks of the season,

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we might see some like mass resting.

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Speaker 1: While I agree with what you said, I'm just gonna

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say that it happens because one, unlike you, I don't

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hate fun, But two isn't there also a chance that

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these teams are just so deep that even when they're

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not putting their best product forward, they're still gonna be

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better than most of the competition. And so unless it's

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we start seeing them sit all their guys against if

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it's Cleveland, it's Boston, it's New York, or the Thunder

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against Denver, or isn't there I mean the Thunders specifically

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might just not play their top three players and still

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win basketball games anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, there's no chance, because that would be fun,

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and we've established I'm out for that reason. I'm out

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on fun.

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Speaker 1: Would you care to guess? Let's save you do this.

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Who is the biggest underachiever this season relative to their

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preseason over under?

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Speaker 2: Is it our yours?

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Speaker 1: In mind?

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Speaker 2: New Orleans Pelicans?

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Speaker 1: It is? This is a Pelicans fans look away for

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watching it on YouTube. They'd a forty five and a half.

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They're currently on pace to win nineteen games. That's a

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difference of twenty six and a half victories in the

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wrong direction. I mean, it's just this was the season

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from literal hell.

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Speaker 2: This is Memphis two years ago. Everybody was hurt the

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whole time. That's just no suspensions, but everybody was hurt.

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That's it.

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Speaker 1: There's I will say their future seems a little bit

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bleaker than that. Memo his teams did, because this is

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like a larger symptom of okay, well, how healthy can

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Zion be? And now Dejonte Murray that achilles injury doesn't

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just fuck this season of my fuck next season too.

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They're in like a really weird spot. Do we think

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that they get over twenty wins? Though? Because they're currently

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on pace for nineteen Zion's been pretty good when.

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Speaker 2: He plays he has and I mean I was gonna say,

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let's talk about bright spots, Trey Murphy looking really good,

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playmaking leap, higher usage, good shooter, Eve mecI nice fine, injury.

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Speaker 1: I will also injured.

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Speaker 2: I will say they will uh, they will not get

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over twenty.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say they get over twenty because, as you said,

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late season Shenanians, and they also don't have to worry

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about like they're gonna have one of the four worst

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records in the league. That's just a given. The second

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most disappointing team. Did you want to take a guess here?

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I feel like this is another one you should get.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, nuh oh Phoenix, no oh come on? Oh right,

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oh right, the most disappointing team on planet ear got it.

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Speaker 1: Fifty two and a half anincdotally they are all between

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them and Phoenix would make sense. Fifty two and a

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half was their projection. They're on pace to win thirty,

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so they're they've gone twenty two and a half in

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the wrong direction. Grant, do you remember if he went

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over or under on their total?

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Speaker 2: I bet I went over.

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Speaker 1: We both went under because we are geniuses.

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Speaker 2: We're smart.

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Speaker 1: Don't ask me what we predicted for, or at leastn't

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ask me what I predicted for the Pistons. So this

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is I think you can say on some level this

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is the season from hell for them too, because of

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what happened with Joel Embiid and then McCain breaks out,

300
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only to now he's done for the year. What's going

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on with Paul George. At the same time, this is like,

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isn't it another thing with the Pelicans where it's this

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worst case scenario? Was Yes, it was their worst case,

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but it was also completely you could 'en vision it

305
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right this way.

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Speaker 2: If you had asked, like, hey, how's it gonna go bad?

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You would have come up with this. It would have,

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would you know? The McCain part is the surprise because

309
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one although even I mean, there were people that thought

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McCain was such a steal of a pick and then

311
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for him to get hurt, like, you wouldn't have I

312
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don't know, you probably wouldn't have actually been comfortable predicting

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any aspect of McCain, the good and the bad. But yeah,

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the embiid health George health slash like just kind of

315
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looking his age. Think you could have of course like that,

316
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that's what you would have drawn up as like the downside,

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as a likely downside.

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Speaker 1: I think the probably the biggest surprise is just like

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where we're like, oh, should they tank, should Joelle be

320
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shut it down for the rest of the year, is

321
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just they've lost the minutes so far per cleaning the

322
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glass when the big three have played together. Yeah, that's

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probably not something I would have predicted.

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Speaker 2: And I think too, if you'd said, what's there over

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under if Embid doesn't play all year, you might have

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still gone over thirty right, Like you would have said,

327
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there's enough talent here to there they'll win you know,

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thirty five games, right.

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Speaker 1: Because the entire point or at least not the entire

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like part of the theory of having a Paul George

331
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and then with Tyres Massey was okay, you're bill to

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navigate the structures out a beat, and they even you

333
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looked at them getting Andre Drummond and thinking sort of

334
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the same. Oh they have like a stop gap at

335
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centered and it's yeah, but it's not Drummond. It's because

336
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Yabuseli's been really good this year.

337
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Speaker 2: What a weird year?

338
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Speaker 1: Did you want to take a stab at the third

339
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most well?

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Speaker 2: I already said Phoenix. Can I say them again?

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Speaker 1: You can, but only if you want to be incorrect.

342
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Speaker 2: I'm happy to be incorrect.

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Speaker 1: It's the Utah Jazz. They had an over under of

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twenty eight and a half. They're currently on pace to

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win twenty so it's a difference of eight and a

346
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half in the wrong direction. Would you care to know

347
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if you have them as the over under you want

348
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to take a guess at that?

349
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Speaker 2: I really hope, I said under.

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Speaker 1: We both had under, we both viewed it, and I

351
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mean this is correct. I don't know how good you

352
00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:43,440
want to feel about their future? Was they can't afford

353
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not to just be awful this year and they understand

354
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the plot on like the previous two seasons.

355
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean twenty eight and a half. Is I

356
00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:55,480
wonder where that came from, Like, what's the theory of them?

357
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,840
I guess like, oh, market In plays a fully healthy

358
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,759
season and the young guys that weren't very good last

359
00:15:59,799 --> 00:16:02,720
year are all better. Like that's there's still the incentives

360
00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:04,639
are what they are. This draft class is like you

361
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,159
gotta if you gotta tank this year if you're ever

362
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:07,720
gonna do it.

363
00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:11,759
Speaker 1: And honestly, if anything too, you would have assumed that,

364
00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:13,879
like these projections would have kicked in that oh, all

365
00:16:13,879 --> 00:16:15,919
the veterans won't finish the season on the team. We

366
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,200
knew market it would, but then they proceeded to trade

367
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,759
none of them anyway, So it's just like and they're

368
00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:22,919
still gonna miss it. Good job by the jet. I

369
00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:24,759
was worried that Will Hardy was gonna get fired for

370
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,279
conduct not detrimental enough to the team, and it's clear

371
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,720
that he won't. Would you say my question on them?

372
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,600
And this is probably worth its own podcast, which is

373
00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:35,879
very quick. Are they under like the most pressure to

374
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,519
capslock hit on this draft of any team that's going

375
00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:41,720
to be in the top you know, seven to eight picks.

376
00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 2: I think, well, I'm trying to think of if is

377
00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:46,159
anybody even close.

378
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: I guess I think has a case. But while their

379
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,879
window to be really bad is small at the moment,

380
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,200
like just the two years. Yeah, they are still just

381
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,039
in the early stages of it all. This is kind

382
00:16:57,039 --> 00:16:58,840
of year three of the Jazz's reset.

383
00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:01,519
Speaker 2: Then it has to be them, like you might say

384
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,119
Washington just because but they're early too, and like maybe

385
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,559
so like they've got enough cracks at it from what

386
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,480
we know of the previous high picks that the Jazz

387
00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:12,519
have made, Like they ain't a cornerstone in there, so

388
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,359
you like that's and you've had two shots at it,

389
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,359
so this one has to hit.

390
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: Do you want to take a guess at the fourth

391
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:18,960
most disappointed?

392
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:20,599
Speaker 2: Should I say Phoenix again?

393
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 1: You should because they're the answer.

394
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

395
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,480
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't even want to say I had them

396
00:17:25,519 --> 00:17:28,759
projected for so many wins. This is just man, I

397
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,440
miss all the time, but this is egregious. Forty seven

398
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,200
and a half was they're over under. They're on pace

399
00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:37,240
grant for thirty nine wins. That's a difference of also

400
00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:41,240
eight and a half. I don't it's it's you can

401
00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:43,920
explain it, like we've seen it, we've watched it. Just

402
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,039
kind of implode in real time. This is just this

403
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,359
is disastrous for them because we'ren't the point where last

404
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,799
season they were fairly disappointing, but you could say, oh,

405
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,960
I've seen enough to think, or maybe I haven't seen

406
00:17:57,079 --> 00:17:59,319
enough to think that they get to the plan they were.

407
00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:02,279
People projected they were going to beat Minnesota last year,

408
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,839
like that was I think you might have even been

409
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,160
one could And now I don't think. Let's say they

410
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,920
get into the playoffs by virtue of a play in

411
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:12,480
which isn't guaranteed, I have zero fate, Like what is

412
00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:13,880
the team they would need to face in the first

413
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,599
round for you to think they get more than a game?

414
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's brutal, like they I don't think they're If

415
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,960
you get more than a game, like who knows, you

416
00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:24,640
might get a Booker Durant combined heater. But they're just

417
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,319
not defensively non threatening offensively. The whole is way less

418
00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:31,200
than the sum of the parts. And like we've talked

419
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,319
about before, like this is it's it's not like they

420
00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:38,599
were decimated by injury, Like this is like fairly close

421
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,799
to what they were going for roster wise, and this

422
00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:44,319
is the real Like, man, that's that's rough.

423
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,559
Speaker 1: You want to take a guess at the final most

424
00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:51,079
the fifth most disappointing team, and the last one we'll

425
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:51,559
talk about.

426
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,119
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go higher up the standings a little bit

427
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,720
and say, oh, there's two candidates. I'm just gonna change

428
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,799
my answer. I was gonna say Dallas, I'm gonna say Orlando.

429
00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 1: Okay, both of those are wrong. It's the Charlotte Hornets.

430
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,440
They had an over under of twenty nine and a

431
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,440
half and they're on pace to win twenty one. That's

432
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,160
also a difference of eight and a half. They I mean,

433
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,680
that's this is another situation. It's not even it's not LaMelo.

434
00:19:13,799 --> 00:19:16,000
He's missed time, but it's okay. Now, Brandon Miller's done

435
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,839
for the year. Mark Williams was never healthy and they

436
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,400
tried to trade him, and then he proceeded to play

437
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,440
another bad game, like against the team that was supposed

438
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,119
to straight for him. Sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

439
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,799
That's not funny, except it is. This is like kind

440
00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:32,079
of explainable, and I think it's almost encouraging because I

441
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,519
probably did pick the over for them. I said, if

442
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:37,880
LaMelo was gonna be healthy, there's enough talent here and yeah,

443
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,680
I did hit the over. Oh you hit the over

444
00:19:39,759 --> 00:19:42,240
as well, So we were both wrong. But I'm like,

445
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,720
this is you know, the Jazz. You look and say, Okay,

446
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,079
I'm okay that they're on this list, and I'm okay

447
00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:48,640
with the Hornets being on this list, they're gonna get

448
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,759
another top pick. They have LaMelo, they have Brandon Miller.

449
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:52,559
There's things they need to figure out, but I think

450
00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,599
the organization is at least focused on the bigger picture,

451
00:19:55,599 --> 00:19:58,319
which is just not something that you could say ever,

452
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,920
like before two seasons, past two seasons.

453
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think right, I think the overall it's a

454
00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:08,319
good thing that they're here. And I guess the miss

455
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,960
just was LaMelo alone, even he's missed enough time to

456
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,880
where we can take a pass. But like, I think

457
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,920
we both were just kind of the mind that if

458
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,680
LaMelo plays a healthy season like this team just the

459
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,400
offense will be good enough to offset however bad the

460
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,200
defense is. And and Miller, like Miller's out to like

461
00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:27,200
there's a lot of there's a lot of cover here

462
00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:29,480
for the Hornets to be this bad and not feel

463
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,359
too disappointed about it.

464
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,759
Speaker 1: All. Right, let's throw on the full screen look of

465
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,960
how all these teams are performing to see if anything

466
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,960
else stands out to us, and you grant anything any

467
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,480
other teams, you're kind of looking at this, Like I

468
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,680
said on the screen, we have all the teams. You

469
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,200
can want to check it out on YouTube by how

470
00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:50,039
many wins they're going to exceed or miss their over underby.

471
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting, don't you. I think we had

472
00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,720
some pretty like tough conversations about the Pacers, like, oh,

473
00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,799
how you know Phony Conference finalist and like, and they're

474
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:03,519
gonna basically hit their number. That's the one that jumps out.

475
00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:06,079
Same with the Knicks. Actually they're right there, they're half

476
00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:09,160
a win over. Just the ones that are actually close

477
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,839
are the kind of the most interesting to me, trying

478
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,839
to think when they're the Celtics too, which was a

479
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,440
high number. Yeah, those those three kind of leap out.

480
00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:18,559
Anything jump out to you.

481
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 1: I obviously Orlando, but like that's one that at least

482
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,079
can be explained. I mean, their inability to address uh,

483
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,440
the like the shooting issues and just the overarching offensive

484
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,519
issues remains annoying. I will say the Spurs are currently

485
00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:35,519
on pace to outperform. They're over under in light of

486
00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:38,559
the wemby absence, they'll probably end up skewing it in a

487
00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:42,160
different direction if I one that's really standing out to me,

488
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,359
and it's just they should be ashamed. It's like, why

489
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,920
are the Bulls about to outperform themselves by five victory?

490
00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:49,519
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, what what are you guys doing? That?

491
00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:52,960
That has to be like the biggest mistake right of

492
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,599
any of these. Like why at the Kings being four

493
00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:57,279
and a half under?

494
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:58,039
Speaker 1: Uh?

495
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: That you know they were trying to win, like that's

496
00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:03,880
the goal there that that's pretty disappointing.

497
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,039
Speaker 1: And even I'm like, I can't remember what I did

498
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,039
with the Raptors and they've just been injured and clearly

499
00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:12,160
not focused on this. Sly, I've of course hit the over.

500
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,720
I always smashed the Raptors over. I'm an idiot, but

501
00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:15,599
like that's surprise.

502
00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: Though four and a half under seems like it seems

503
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,240
like they're way worse than that, you know, but when you.

504
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: Look, yeah, it seems like you're right. It does seem

505
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,519
like given how much time Barnes and quickly missed and

506
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,599
like now they make the brandon Ingram trade and he's

507
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,160
banged up and they've dealt with other injuries. I yeah,

508
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:32,960
so it's like it's I guess it's almost impressive, But

509
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,640
I got to stop hitting the Raptors over what the

510
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,440
ell doesn't matter with me, are you if? I now,

511
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,759
I know a lot of people assume that, like bad

512
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:44,359
teams probably aren't supposed to miss their over under by

513
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,519
that much. I'm almost shocked the Wizards that are like that,

514
00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:49,640
I think speaks to how low they're over under was

515
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,799
set to begin with that they didn't miss it, Like

516
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:53,480
there's still six and a half under and they were

517
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,759
projected for twenty and a half. But that's a team

518
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:58,119
that you would think, like, oh no, they're gonna figure

519
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,400
out a way to be in the double digits. But

520
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,200
if you're gonna be basically twenty one wins as a

521
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,039
projection coming in, I don't know how much lower are

522
00:23:04,039 --> 00:23:04,720
you supposed to go?

523
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,759
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, Like mathematically it's almost like you just shouldn't

524
00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:10,799
assume anyone's ever gonna win fewer than twenty just because

525
00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:13,000
it's happened so early. But that was a pretty easy call.

526
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:16,279
What about the Wolves being seven and a half under,

527
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,559
Like that's just I mean, speaks to disappointing one. But

528
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,519
like nobody seemed all that concerned about the Cat for

529
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,039
Randall and de Vincenzo trade. Maybe everybody thought like, oh,

530
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:31,319
that doesn't matter. Edwards is just like on a rocket

531
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,240
ship to the moon and that'll offset everything. Seven and

532
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,119
a half hundred is a big number for a good team.

533
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were fifty two and a half and we

534
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,160
both hit the under and we recorded this. I think

535
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,599
we did ours after the Karl Anthony Towns trade, because

536
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:45,960
if I remember correctly, we did league past rankings. We

537
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,839
did three hours and it became No. One void because

538
00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:50,640
of that trade. We never even published it or it

539
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,680
went up at the NBA podcast. So, by the way,

540
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,640
another one that stands out just sort of like reinforces

541
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,680
what the fuck is gonna go on here? Miami missing

542
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,519
by five and a half When we're used to them,

543
00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:05,200
even amid injuries and drama, they tend to overperform during

544
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,200
the regular season or at least like they always just

545
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,400
seem to figure out a way. And so I guess

546
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,119
in previous years, if you would have seen them miss

547
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,119
by five and a half wins, you might say, oh,

548
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,599
like they're they're going to be fine in the postseason

549
00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:18,359
and moving forward, and now they've kind of entered the

550
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,279
territory where it's I don't think they deserve that type

551
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:22,400
of benefit of the doubt.

552
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,519
Speaker 2: A duo here for very different reasons. The LA teams

553
00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:28,640
both being seven and a half over, like the Clippers,

554
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,680
we thought were a decent candidate to be like, oh,

555
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,640
they're going to be in the teams maybe like that

556
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,160
could happen. And then it's really hard for the Lakers

557
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,519
to like exceed public opinion because those their numbers are

558
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:43,039
always skewed high, and there's the Lakers are seven and

559
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:46,000
a half over, which is like, I don't know how

560
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:46,599
that happened.

561
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: I by the Clippers were another team. I said this

562
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:52,160
at the time that I was just ripping victories. I

563
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,960
said they were going to be awful. I destroyed their

564
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:56,680
offseason seven and a half. I guess they were working

565
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,720
from a lower baseline. But yeah, the Lakers, this is

566
00:24:59,799 --> 00:25:03,160
just and all these vitals, aside from their actual record,

567
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,920
point to a team that is not this good. But

568
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,599
at some point, I guess you just have to trust

569
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,079
the wins and losses and the wins and they're just

570
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,400
you mentioned this during our previous pod where they look

571
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:15,480
like I know they have some personnel, but they look

572
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,160
like they should be god awful on defense now post

573
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,519
Anthony Davis trade, and maybe it goes that way, but

574
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:22,960
it's yet to go that way.

575
00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: They've made it far enough to where you have to

576
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:28,839
sprinkle in a little doubt that it's gonna fall apart. Uh.

577
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: Are you upset that the Warriors are on pace to miss?

578
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,880
But I bet the Warriors if I had to pick

579
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,599
a team that's in the red right now that I

580
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,240
think finishes in the green, I mean, they're just the

581
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,920
margins so thin, So it's the Warriors by the full.

582
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:43,599
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I'm I suspect I went over

583
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,200
pretty hard, but I mean, yeah, they they should. They

584
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,240
should get to what So this means I'm trying to

585
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,400
do some quick math. I think they were at like

586
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,799
forty six or forty seven or something like that preseason.

587
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,200
That's they got some work to do to get there.

588
00:25:59,200 --> 00:25:59,960
But it's possible.

589
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: And for those interesting I will never count this as

590
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:07,200
betting advice, but you should continue to short whatever I

591
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,359
say about the Grizzlies because this is gonna be I think,

592
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,640
like the sixty year running I hit their under, They're

593
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,440
gonna go over last year I hit there, I went under.

594
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,400
For so many years they kept exceeding it. The one

595
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,599
year I go over, they were terrible. I went under again.

596
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,519
They've been mostly awesome. So just keep that in mind

597
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:28,599
for futures. And then finally, like if the Hawks still

598
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,240
finish in the green after what happened, I like, I

599
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,799
don't understand where that team is going or where it's head.

600
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:36,440
I can kind of see the theory of what they're

601
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,559
trying to build around Tree Young, but I don't trust it.

602
00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:41,319
And if they wind out up out performing a win

603
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,240
total that was I think spot on like thirty five

604
00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:45,960
and a half, if they end up with like forty

605
00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:47,799
forty one wins, I'll be pretty impressed.

606
00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the uh, the Grizzlies last season performance is pretty

607
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,920
clear proof that it is very much personal. But like

608
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,759
between them and you, that they they just don't want

609
00:26:57,799 --> 00:26:58,359
you to be right.

610
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: Ever, let's talk about and Ingram and the future of

611
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,279
the Toronto Raptors, because brand Ingram just signed an extension

612
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,119
three years, one hundred and twenty million dollars, fully guaranteed

613
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,759
player option. On the final year, it will account on

614
00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:14,160
average for about twenty three percent of the salary cap.

615
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,720
It'll top out at about twenty six four point six percent,

616
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,799
excuse me, and it goes through his age thirty season

617
00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:22,440
is when he has the player option four. And if

618
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,480
I didn't mention this, the max extension he could have

619
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:27,400
signed right now with the Raptors was three years and

620
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,400
one hundred and forty four, So it's less than that

621
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,759
had he gotten a free agency I don't assume a

622
00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:33,519
five year deal would have been on the table, grant,

623
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,640
but a four year deal four year max would run

624
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,680
almost two hundred and nine. If you wanted to go

625
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,160
for five years, I think it would have been around

626
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,880
like two eighty or something. So this is not the

627
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,039
maximum amount of money that brand Ingram could have got

628
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:47,359
if he went into free agency. Is my point. I

629
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,079
have a couple. There are like two main points about one.

630
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,119
What do you think about the brandon Ingram contract. Let's

631
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:53,599
start there.

632
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,759
Speaker 2: I'll answer your question with a question, how sure were

633
00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:01,279
you when you saw Well, I'll just give you my experience.

634
00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:04,200
I saw three one twenty and I was like, I

635
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,599
would bet my life that that third year as a

636
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,920
player option, and it was because it just like it

637
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,200
had to be based on what the market seemed to

638
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,160
have been for him, and the sensibility of like let's

639
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,160
get on the market, Let's let's go two years and

640
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,960
get back into free agency for one more big deal,

641
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,920
like that was so really good bye him. I think

642
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,279
kind of making the best of a situation, like getting

643
00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:28,400
to a team that was going to pay him and

644
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,599
ins far as he had control over where the Pelicans

645
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,960
traded him, and kind of like getting the best he

646
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,480
could short term and preserving like some optionality for like

647
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:39,960
another big deal if he if he gets his value up.

648
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,680
I think now what I think about the deal is

649
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,279
going to hinge on like how he goes about improving

650
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:48,920
his value in these next two years, which is to say,

651
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,640
like I think he needs to be kind of a

652
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,519
different player or or like a pretty extreme version of

653
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,200
what we've seen in spurts from him to really like

654
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,079
get the market to come back around to the idea

655
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,359
of Ingram being worth even if the max numbers you're

656
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:06,279
talking about or anything close to it, you know what

657
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:10,480
I mean, Like specifically talking about the shooting volume from three,

658
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,200
the continued facilitation like that kind of stuff I think

659
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,400
I think will determine, like one, his fit with the

660
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,960
Raptors and two sort of where where he lands in

661
00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:23,920
terms of like the next free agent crop in a

662
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:24,799
couple of years.

663
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. I guess I wasn't surprised that they

664
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:30,200
kept him, because why else would you trade for him?

665
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,519
And I expected an attention. I don't. I guess I

666
00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:34,680
don't know where I expected it to fall, because if

667
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,640
you just look at what the cap space landscape was

668
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,000
going to be this summer, even if we stretch it

669
00:29:40,039 --> 00:29:42,000
and say some of the teams that might create cap space,

670
00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:45,440
if it's the Spurs, if it's the Pistons, we know

671
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:47,880
the Nets will have cap space. I didn't see where

672
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,759
the offer was coming from. But I think the Raptors

673
00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:52,160
are a perfect example of it only takes one team.

674
00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:54,160
If you want him, you will figure out a way

675
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,319
to either cut the salary cap space or then you

676
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,400
worked out a sign in trade. I think I'm fine

677
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,200
with the money. You look at it through like the

678
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:05,079
percentage of a salary cap, like it's just under twenty

679
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:07,160
five percent of the salary cap for brandon Ingram for

680
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,319
the life of this deal is fine. I was actually

681
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,400
probably more surprised than you, I guess, seeing it was

682
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,000
three years. But I was a little bit surprised that

683
00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:17,880
the Raptors gave out the player option because part of

684
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,400
the value of him getting paid now, to me, should

685
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,640
have been, if this works out, you'd like to have

686
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,839
the flexibility of keeping him for the full three years

687
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,640
rather than leaving, because if this works out, they're not screwed.

688
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920
They could still pay him, but then he gets to

689
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,160
get out the peak of his market that you helped rebuild.

690
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:36,680
So that I guess the fact that it wasn't more

691
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,440
team friendly was probably the thing that surprised me a

692
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,839
little bit, just based off how barren I considered his

693
00:30:42,359 --> 00:30:43,680
market in free agency.

694
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because he presumably he got it, got

695
00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:50,920
the player option because of the threat of just oh,

696
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,799
I'm not going to sign anything, and they had to

697
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,079
cave on that aspect of it. So it isn't he

698
00:30:56,119 --> 00:30:58,079
did have some amount of leverage, which you sort of

699
00:30:58,079 --> 00:31:01,480
get because like for Toronto trading for him, not that

700
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:03,720
they gave up a mint, like we're talking Bruce Brown

701
00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:07,640
and Alynock and like one first, but like you can't

702
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,559
trade for him and then not keep him. I think,

703
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,200
so he had some power there. So yeah, I mean,

704
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,400
the player option is bad for Toronto's side because inherently,

705
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,839
if it turns out to have been a good deal,

706
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,200
they will lose him, you know, and if it's bad,

707
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:24,920
they'll have to pay him too much when he opts in,

708
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:27,640
Like the risk is with the team in player options,

709
00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:30,720
but like I don't know, so yeah, I guess the

710
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,279
financial terms weren't I didn't didn't really bump me too much.

711
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,359
I think the fit and sort of how what that

712
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,079
means about the overall vision of this Raptors team is

713
00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:42,319
kind of the are the two like most interesting angles

714
00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:45,480
to talk about? So, like, as you look at who's

715
00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:49,960
on this team with big deals, You've got Scottie Barnes, obviously,

716
00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:51,559
you've got Emmanuel Quickly.

717
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: R J.

718
00:31:51,799 --> 00:31:55,119
Speaker 2: Barrett's got a decent sized deal for his role. Even

719
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,680
Yaka Peertl's making plenty of money for his role. And

720
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,119
now you add Ingram that suggests this team is kind

721
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:03,599
of done. Like there's you know, this is the team

722
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,160
for a while. How do you feel about that? And

723
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:10,400
how do you feel about the ceiling with with Ingram

724
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,559
being like the number two guy?

725
00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:17,519
Speaker 1: Now, I think I'm okay with it because we know

726
00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:19,359
they're going to get a high draft pick this year

727
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:22,200
and that will give you some flexibility to either develop

728
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,599
someone who's super high end or you could look at

729
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:27,480
it and say, would this team consider making a trade

730
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:31,480
where they're combining that pick to one of their other salaries,

731
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:33,759
because I think you can make the case that the

732
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:37,559
player who becomes most let's just chuse the word redundant

733
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,920
or superfluous here would be RJ. Barrett. And so if

734
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,920
you attach that pick to RJ. Barrett's money, like, what

735
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,720
does that actually get you? And you can also say,

736
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:50,279
even with Brandon Ingram on the books, it'll be close,

737
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920
but like, this team could still be under the salary cap,

738
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,920
not salary cap, excuse me, the luxury tax next year.

739
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,119
So with Brandon Ingram on the books, they have like

740
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,759
eleven million space under the tax and so that's not

741
00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:04,599
factoring it. Okay, what happens with Chris Bouchet, Like keeping

742
00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:07,599
this team together while adding a draft pick is not untenable.

743
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,599
So I feel okay about where they're at financially. It's

744
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,640
just you when you look at the pieces. Even brand

745
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:16,079
Ingram is a number two. But in the larger context

746
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:18,680
of this team, if you don't think they're gonna move one,

747
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,880
if you're not moving Yaka Pertl. I'm not saying you should,

748
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,359
but like, now you really need brandon ingram as a

749
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,839
three point shooter to hit for spacing purposes, for Scotty,

750
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,680
just the whole nine and a half court offense. You're

751
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,839
also kind of betting on seeing a level defensively from him,

752
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:35,119
probably that we really haven't, at least not for more

753
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,559
than like a season or a half season. And so

754
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,759
I think it's like kind of a series of interesting gambles.

755
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:44,400
And my biggest question to you, there's so much to

756
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,480
unpack there. Take wherever you want, but like, how do

757
00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:50,200
you feel about him as someone if they're not gonna

758
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,160
put him on the ball? Primarily just like is he something?

759
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,960
Because what I think benefited RJ and you didn't see

760
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,000
a ton of it in New York. He's been able

761
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,359
to in Samson Folk and Trey on their podcast framed

762
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,920
it this way, like play within the flow of the offense. Yeah,

763
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,400
that's something that we haven't And to be fair, I

764
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,480
don't know that New Orleans has ever really tried aside

765
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,920
from having him be like a standstill guy, we haven't

766
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:14,639
seen him given the opportunity or been forced to play

767
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,000
within the flow of something off the ball. Do you

768
00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:18,719
view him as a player who can do that?

769
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,159
Speaker 2: I think his treat well. One of the reasons the

770
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:23,880
Pelicans didn't want him back is because he didn't prove

771
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,760
he could do that consistently. And like the types of

772
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,719
shots he likes tend to be kind of ball stopping shots,

773
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,559
Like he wants to get into his bag and shoot

774
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:34,519
two point jumpers, which like fits his like he's he's

775
00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:36,599
a lanky wing that can shoot over a lot of guys.

776
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,880
Like that's I understand why that he feels that says

777
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,599
bread and butter. We've both touched on it, though. The

778
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:44,880
three point volume, which which was at a career high

779
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,679
this year over six per game, that's got to be

780
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,679
the floor and like you would just you know, teams

781
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,480
have conversations with agents and players before they do deals

782
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:56,159
like this about like what the terms of the next

783
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,079
deal are going to be. I don't know how common

784
00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:00,320
it is to have the conversation touch on I'm like,

785
00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:02,920
here's what we need you to do on the floor.

786
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,960
Are you good with that before we execute this trade?

787
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,519
Because Ingram does have to be a kind of extreme

788
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,280
version of what he's been and a pretty different version

789
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,199
of what he's been for this to go like maximally, Well,

790
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,119
I guess like so you can see the vision of it,

791
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:21,840
I can see it. If you think Ingram can be

792
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,000
more of a quick decision, get off some threes, you know,

793
00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:27,519
get into your bag if you need to. It's the

794
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:29,079
end of a shot clock. He might be the guy

795
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:31,559
that's best equipped to do that on the team. Yeah,

796
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,280
do you have concerns to questions before we get out

797
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,119
of here, do you have concerns that the dynamic between

798
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:42,119
him and Scottie Barnes is a little too similar to

799
00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:44,599
the one between him and Zion Williamson that we didn't love,

800
00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:48,159
which is to say, the bigger star is best on

801
00:35:48,199 --> 00:35:51,719
the ball, doesn't stretch and therefore is like a clunky

802
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,280
fit at least with the previous versions of Ingram. And then, secondly,

803
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,320
from the Raptor's perspective here overall, was getting Ingram an

804
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,840
ambitious move or was it unambitious because of like what

805
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,840
they seem to have locked themselves into.

806
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: Ceiling wise, So let me answer the first one. Initially,

807
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:15,800
I I'm not as worried because Scottie Barnes is just

808
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,000
a more versatile player than Zion William right stuff. Yeah so,

809
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:24,039
and I think Scotty Barnes is also has been willing

810
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:26,800
to try or exist in different type of usage states.

811
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,079
I think the bigger key there will be Ingram is

812
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:33,559
rated for basically his entire career in the ninety percentile

813
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:36,639
or better of off ball gravity and off ball shot making.

814
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,719
So to me, it comes down to if he buys

815
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,760
into it. It's not a talent or ten thing, it's

816
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,920
a will Hey thing right. And I think the way

817
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,519
that Darko has used RJ a lot of the time,

818
00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:50,880
I think that you can get Brandingham to buy into that. Now,

819
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,599
this leads into your second question. I don't want to

820
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:56,159
say it was on it's this seems like an opportunistic move.

821
00:36:56,199 --> 00:37:00,199
I think it was ambitious in the sense of you

822
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,000
gave up a first round pick that's probably not going

823
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:03,880
to be good to get someone who you then needed

824
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,679
to turn around and pay that you're only guaranteed to

825
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,599
have for two years, so you only have him under

826
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:10,159
team control because throw this season out the window for

827
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:12,880
two more seasons. So it was risky, but you're also

828
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,480
not going to get as tough to fit in as Brandon.

829
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,320
Ingram can be just the type of value he provides

830
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,840
for a first round pick and like not just an

831
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,719
expiring contract us. So Kelly Olynic's money for next season

832
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,360
is probably skews in that negative. Yeah, at this point.

833
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,559
So what I worry about it? Though? And I would

834
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:32,559
I guess I would answer your question with another question

835
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:36,760
is do you think it's tenable with RJ in the

836
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,159
mix of the barns Ingram's because I think this makes

837
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:40,719
by the way, I think this makes a manual quickly

838
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,559
even more important the ball handling now maybe not, but

839
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,559
just as a spacer and even beyond me RJ stuff. Though,

840
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,679
Was this the direction for the Raptors to take this,

841
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,119
knowing that they could have let's just say, a top

842
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:57,239
seven pick, could be top five, could be the first

843
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,719
overall pick. Do you think that this was the direction

844
00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:02,840
that the Raptors should be going down?

845
00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:06,079
Speaker 2: I think they had already gone far enough in this

846
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:10,599
direction that like moving in a different one would have

847
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:15,320
been prohibitively tough, because you you know, they did get

848
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,280
picks for Siakham, but the OG deal got them quickly

849
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,559
and bear it, and they they gave quickly a bunch

850
00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:22,880
of money and kind of you know, they're not locked in.

851
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,840
They're not in. You're not like, you know, cripplingly unflexible.

852
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,800
But it's like you kind of have a rough idea

853
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,800
of who's going to be taking up the biggest chunks

854
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,880
of the salary cap here for a while. So I

855
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,440
think I think it makes sense. I get I do

856
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:42,000
just continue to circle back to will will Ingram to

857
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:44,039
use your turn, which I think is dead on, like

858
00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:46,760
just buy in to what needs needs to be his

859
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,800
role on this team. And and it's and it isn't

860
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,360
a question of can he be good at it? I

861
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,519
think he absolutely can. Yeah, it's like does he want

862
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:57,679
to do that? And honestly, it would behoove him to

863
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,360
do that because if teams around the league see he's

864
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,280
willing to shoot ten threes a game or with you know,

865
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,559
some insane thing like that, It's like, guess what, You're

866
00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:06,719
way more valuable now because you fit everywhere.

867
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: You will get paid again.

868
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,519
Speaker 2: Into you, Yes, and you will be paid. That was

869
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:12,199
the problem before. You don't fit everywhere because of how

870
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:15,840
you prefer to play offense. The Barrett piece of it

871
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,679
is kind of like it does just feel, well, what

872
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:22,920
do you Barrett has like blossomed as the facilitator. This year,

873
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,360
he's been better than he's been with the Knicks, Like,

874
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:29,360
but I'm not sure what his role looks like if

875
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:31,239
Barnes is going to be on the ball and Quickly

876
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,559
is going to be on the ball and Ingram is

877
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:35,679
a five assist guy, like what is Barrett? Just are

878
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,079
you good with a slasher? And that that is is

879
00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:42,000
maybe that ties to Ingram willing being willing to shoot

880
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,840
threes too, because if Barrett's you know, like collapsing the

881
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,079
defense and having a guy out there that you have

882
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:49,880
to account for matters more. I don't know, Barrett's a

883
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,480
weird fit. I take your point on that.

884
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,559
Speaker 1: I am interested to see how it all come together

885
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,480
specifically with I'm not even because I think just Quickly

886
00:39:56,519 --> 00:40:01,760
fits with Yakub Brandon, Ingram, r J Barrett, and Scottie Barnes,

887
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,639
because I think I RJ. Bats are willing to try

888
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:06,320
a bunch of different stuff, like just coming over from

889
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,559
Toronto from New York and the way he's been using

890
00:40:08,559 --> 00:40:11,800
Toronto is proof of that concept. But unless you're gonna

891
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,679
like maybe they find out like should they bring him

892
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,679
off the bench and that allows more of sort of

893
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,559
a natural fit or I think people might frame this

894
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:23,239
as oh, quickly or RJ Barrett. It almost becomes just

895
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,760
looking at a spacing perspective. I wonder if them becomes

896
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,639
is that RJ. Barrett or Yaka Pertle and you need

897
00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:30,760
to kind of remake your vision of what needs to

898
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,039
be at the five spot right now again because you

899
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,159
have Ingram and I don't know the answer to that.

900
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:38,559
That's why I really want to see it all. I'm

901
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:40,599
more open minded to this working. But I was talking

902
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:43,000
to Raptors fans on Blue Sky about this. A lot

903
00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:44,840
of them were sort of which I think is fine.

904
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,119
They had like the Raptors Colors goggles on. They were

905
00:40:47,159 --> 00:40:50,119
really excited about it, and I understand that. But I

906
00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:51,559
think a lot of people were framing it as the

907
00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:54,719
only alternative was what does cap space or flexibility like

908
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,079
that do in a Toronto market. That's accurate. If my

909
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:00,760
one concern was that, oh, they should just go into

910
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,400
free agency and get guys, I was more so thinking

911
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,079
like and this, I think the cardinal sin would then

912
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:08,280
be did they prioritize the wrong type of return for

913
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,880
og Anobi. But they started down this path last December

914
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,760
with the Oceanobe Trade, where they actively decided to prioritize

915
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,440
talent over picks and prospects, and I'm still not I

916
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,880
think the world of Scottie Barnes when we did Who's

917
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,199
going to be better for the next five years? I've

918
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:25,000
picked them over a bunch of dudes that I think

919
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
made you. It made me uncomfortable, made both I was uncomfortable,

920
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,239
but it just made me. You have the timeline to

921
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,519
where you could have been more gradual about it. And

922
00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:34,519
so that's some going to kind of be watching here.

923
00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:36,679
They haven't boxed themselves into a corner. They can get

924
00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:39,320
out of this. I just I'm very curious to see

925
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,199
if it all works out. And I don't necessarily know

926
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,559
that I understand what the optimal version of this Raptors

927
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:46,840
can be even if it works out, because if branding

928
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,159
was a good fit, what do you view them as

929
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,119
relative to the rest of the Eastern Conference?

930
00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: Right That's the thing I think the only thing that

931
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,039
we can say with some level of certainty, because who

932
00:41:58,079 --> 00:41:59,880
knows how the piece will fit together, is like the

933
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:02,840
Raptors priorities are to have good players on the team

934
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,840
right now, Like that's that's what this has been about.

935
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,119
And whether that turns out to be the right decision

936
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:10,679
or the wrong one. Honestly, is gonna hinge on how

937
00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:12,960
wealth Ingram fits into this core grant.

938
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: Let's talk about everyone's favorite topic, the state of the

939
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,559
NBA game, and the genesis of this is we've already

940
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:20,480
kind of done. I recorded with more from the NBA

941
00:42:20,599 --> 00:42:22,960
podcast like the post All Star Break fallout, so this

942
00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:25,400
isn't although you had an interesting thought about what was

943
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,679
discussed then that I wanted to ask you about. But

944
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,199
I always forget this time of year. I mentioned this

945
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,360
to you that as soon as like the super Bowl's

946
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,960
over and we get out of the All Star break.

947
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:36,239
This is not a brag. It's more of just like

948
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,320
I forget, the number of radio and podcasts requests I

949
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,360
receive just goes through the roof. And this past week

950
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,039
was that sort of revelation of oh, like, oh fuck,

951
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:48,119
like I'm gonna have to not have to I enjoy

952
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:49,880
doing it, but you're gonna have to figure out. I

953
00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:51,280
said to you, was like I had to do two

954
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
in one day. It felt like so much. And the

955
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,599
question I'm continuously asked right now is whether they're using

956
00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:00,440
it as All Star break. Is the impetus. What Raymond

957
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,280
Green has said Eddie Johnson in response to Draymond Green,

958
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,920
what other people have said is just the eNB they've

959
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,960
asked me about, like how do we make the NBA

960
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:14,159
game better because it's so much worse? Yeah, And I

961
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,480
believe it comes down to a perception problem more than anything.

962
00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:19,719
And I'm just curious where you land. We've talked about

963
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,400
this before, but it's like these people are asking the

964
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,440
questions and I want to be able to have a

965
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,639
discussion about without saying because I do think part of

966
00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:29,760
the problem is if I sit here and just say, no,

967
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:30,679
you're fucking wrong.

968
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like what is.

969
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: What are the biggest things that stand out when people

970
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,840
are I know they're asking you this question, when you

971
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,639
see people saying the game is worse? Like what are

972
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,760
do you think are the biggest misconceptions that are driving

973
00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:46,360
like what's going on right now?

974
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,559
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like I when you when you come across that stuff,

975
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,360
and like the radio hits are the wrong place to

976
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,360
do this because it's all like you know, bing, bang

977
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,599
in and out, like you know, it's not it's not

978
00:43:56,679 --> 00:43:59,639
like a let's have a drawn out discussion, Like I

979
00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:01,519
want to ask, like what do you mean like what

980
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,960
like when if someone says like it's worse, well, okay,

981
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:08,559
like why Like so I think the most common answers

982
00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:12,400
that you get to that question are, all, it's too

983
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,840
many threes like that. We've we've heard plenty of talking

984
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,400
heads say everybody shoots threes. Offense is homogeneous, which is

985
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,840
kind of just an offshoot of like everyone wants to

986
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,440
shoot a lot of threes, right, you know it all

987
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,119
looks the same.

988
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:28,159
Speaker 1: What are the other like main gripes. I guess like

989
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,719
there's not as like creativity is one short? The other

990
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,840
one I get a lot is uh, players not playing

991
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,039
enough load management?

992
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:42,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't care. Yeah, So I think I think

993
00:44:42,199 --> 00:44:47,360
to have a productive discussion it you almost have to say,

994
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:50,440
like we you and I agree that like it's actually

995
00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:54,679
just subjectively wrong that the quality of the game is worse, uh,

996
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,800
and and that you can you can show that in

997
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,320
any number of like you can get the numbers that

998
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,239
show like how much more players are moving around, like

999
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,639
how many more intricate actions there are by every offense,

1000
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,280
like and look for us, it's hard because we're in

1001
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,400
a silo and we've heard and agree with like all

1002
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,280
the counter arguments. So I feel like I'm just regurgitating

1003
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,480
stuff that maybe a broader audience like hasn't heard because

1004
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,000
they're not in the same silo. But it's like, yes,

1005
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:27,800
everybody wants to shoot a lot of threes because mathematically

1006
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,639
those are the best shots, those in shots at the rim.

1007
00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:34,920
So if all you're saying is everyone wants to shoot

1008
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,559
threes and therefore the game is worse, it's like you're

1009
00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:41,239
just not watching how teams go about trying to get

1010
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,320
those threes and how difficult it is, and how much

1011
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:48,159
strategic like thinking and counter thinking is required in the

1012
00:45:48,199 --> 00:45:50,519
push and pull of like we want to get certain shots,

1013
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,079
how do we do that? How does the defense try

1014
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:54,719
to prevent you from doing that? So I think like

1015
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,639
there's no way to say this without it coming off

1016
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:04,320
as like being an elitist or calling someone like just dumb,

1017
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:09,159
But like you aren't watching very carefully. If the reason

1018
00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:11,760
you think the game is worse is because teams shoot

1019
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,360
a lot of threes, you know what I mean? Like

1020
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,239
that that feels like a threshold issue that we need

1021
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,480
to get over and then from you know, even the

1022
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,760
the idea that players missing time is like a choice

1023
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:27,559
or is somehow evidence of the game being worse. I

1024
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:30,119
would push back and say, like players are missing time

1025
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:33,599
because the game's harder, like it's physically more taxing, like

1026
00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:37,880
the things you're asking Just take centers for example, like

1027
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,679
a center thirty years ago didn't have to do anything

1028
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,239
on the perimeter almost ever, and like block to block

1029
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:49,000
and and so many other like Ben, Like, we just

1030
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:51,519
can't talk about this without referencing the video Ben Taylor

1031
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:55,760
put together comparing basketball games just randomly chosen from different eras.

1032
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,679
Like the amount of stationary stuff that happened in the

1033
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,360
eighties and nineties compared to today is just like it's night

1034
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,440
and day. Like every player is moving and processing and

1035
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:11,800
thinking and changing direction like to just an extreme degree,

1036
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,199
an extremely increased degree now versus then, And it's it's

1037
00:47:16,199 --> 00:47:18,840
harder mentally, it's harder physically, And so yeah, you're gonna

1038
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,480
miss time because you're asking your body to do stuff

1039
00:47:21,519 --> 00:47:25,199
that players thirty forty years ago just never did. So

1040
00:47:26,079 --> 00:47:29,559
I mean, I just I don't really know what to

1041
00:47:29,639 --> 00:47:33,639
say other than like you're entitled to enjoy whatever era

1042
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:37,880
you prefer. That's fine, but it is to me just

1043
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,360
objectively wrong that the actual product on the floor is worse.

1044
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,760
I just don't know how you can pay any level

1045
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,199
of attention to it and conclude that so you know

1046
00:47:48,199 --> 00:47:49,480
what I mean, Like, I don't know what to say

1047
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:51,559
to the radio host, I guess is the answer.

1048
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,519
Speaker 1: I've had some look and you're right, it's not the form.

1049
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:55,320
I just had a recent one. I don't even remember.

1050
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,800
It was a station in Louisiana. I was the RP

1051
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,679
three show. I think it was called the So shout

1052
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,000
out to them, like they made the entire segment about that.

1053
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,119
I don't think that necessarily everyone wants to hear this,

1054
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,199
But I honestly don't know because the word you were

1055
00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:10,800
were in our silo. But I would say, if you

1056
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,599
have a preference for the like the previous era, like

1057
00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:17,000
you just like that you liked slower basketball, You liked

1058
00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:20,679
possessions that were easier to follow because there was less movement.

1059
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,559
And I don't know if this is the reason players

1060
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:25,239
are missing time, but like the game is faster when

1061
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,159
you look at the app don't even forget pace. Look

1062
00:48:27,159 --> 00:48:31,360
at the average offensive possession time today is about fourteen seconds.

1063
00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:34,280
It was closer to sixteen in ninety six ninety seven.

1064
00:48:34,559 --> 00:48:37,079
Those two seconds may make a difference when you're talking

1065
00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:41,000
about more movement. In general, you're covering their smaller players

1066
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,440
guarding bigger players. The way that guys are built nowt

1067
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,079
like the way that bigger players can move like cal

1068
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:48,519
Anthony Towns is an example, is like the way that

1069
00:48:48,559 --> 00:48:50,400
he can get going downhill off the dribble. That's not

1070
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,960
what a bit like. Imagine one doing that as the

1071
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,159
big but then two having to defend that right. So,

1072
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,519
what I really think the bigger issue here is is

1073
00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:03,519
that it comes down to a failure in communication, and

1074
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,079
I think that more speaks to a failure in how

1075
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:09,119
the league is covered, because I think since the game

1076
00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:12,239
has become more complicated, it is now harder to cover.

1077
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,880
I would like to think, per your proprietary metrics, that

1078
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,440
we do an excellent job of covering the league. They

1079
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:20,480
entirely get large now at least trying to be authentic

1080
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,760
about it. But it's hard and there are people that

1081
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,719
if you want to know more about how like the

1082
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,400
x's and o's of it, if you go watch it,

1083
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,920
like the Ben Taylor video, Go watch that video. But

1084
00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:32,400
thinking basketball, just google on YouTube and it'll show what

1085
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:35,480
players and media members are getting wrong. It is so

1086
00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:38,199
much easier to follow a possession, especially if you're trying

1087
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,440
to track defense. And there's so much more stuff happening

1088
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,559
now that I have all the respect in the world

1089
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:44,960
for people who are able to break it down in

1090
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,360
real time or even after the fact, But that's not

1091
00:49:48,679 --> 00:49:52,599
enough of mainstream coverage. And I don't know necessarily the

1092
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:55,440
root of it because I think stuff that factors in.

1093
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,239
It's easy for me to sit here and say there

1094
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,360
should be more of this, but to do it in practice.

1095
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:02,920
There's less time in between plays than there is at

1096
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,599
the NFL, as an example, because that's considered just the

1097
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,280
flagship coverage. When you look at, oh, the NFL coverage

1098
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,079
is so great, it's so nuanced. There's fewer plays in

1099
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:13,679
the NFL and there's fewer games, so there's more time

1100
00:50:13,679 --> 00:50:16,960
to digest and synthesize this stuff. You don't have that

1101
00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:21,159
in the NBA. The other thing is too that everything

1102
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:23,440
feels like it needs to be presented in more bite

1103
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,079
sized form, and so you're not gonna be able to

1104
00:50:27,119 --> 00:50:30,480
have this discussion over the length of a sixty second

1105
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:33,800
TikTok video. And if the NBA is truly trying to

1106
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,880
gear itself towards that. I don't know who. We had

1107
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,239
this discussion off air, honestly don't know who the NBA's

1108
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,039
target audience is. That's maybe a problem, or maybe they've

1109
00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:44,880
decided our target audience is this. They're not interested in

1110
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,119
these long, nuanced, some people might say overly meticulous breakdowns.

1111
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:51,440
And then the final thing before I throw it to you,

1112
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,599
there needs to be a stomach to build up momentum

1113
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:57,840
for this coverage. And I'm going to liken it to

1114
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,480
the play in tournament. Now had two NBA Mid season Cups.

1115
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,760
There's already talk of getting rid of it, moving it

1116
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,280
to not compete with the NFL. I'm not saying the

1117
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,280
mid Season Cup, the NBA Cup, whatever it's called, is

1118
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,400
a home run, but if you want it to mean

1119
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,719
something to players, to fans, you need to have the

1120
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,800
stomach to give it time through those trucks, through those

1121
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,320
valleys before it ever reaches a peak. And the NBA,

1122
00:51:24,599 --> 00:51:27,199
and I think a lot of businesses in general, they're

1123
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:32,440
so focused on these short term returns and impressions and metrics.

1124
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,440
We're never gonna know if a lot of the stuff

1125
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,320
that could work. And let's circle it back to the

1126
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,840
more nuanced covers that we want. Where do I think

1127
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,039
there's a place for legacy debates, for ring debates, for

1128
00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:47,400
the covers that we get. Trade talk, sure, I don't

1129
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,960
want to be writing about trades in March. Trades can't

1130
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,079
happen in March. It is a failure in the way

1131
00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:56,280
that the game is disseminated to the fans. And if

1132
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,440
you're saying, well, that's what draws the engagement, you need

1133
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,239
to have the stomach to shift that, to show them like, no,

1134
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,880
this stuff can be interesting too. And if it turns

1135
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,599
out again, I don't know if you can do that,

1136
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:10,599
Maybe it turns out that the NBA's demographic doesn't want

1137
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:13,280
that stuff and they care more about rankings overall. There's

1138
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:14,960
also a way to do and I think this is

1139
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,840
what we do among the things we do best. There's

1140
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,679
a way to centralize your coverage and say, rather than

1141
00:52:21,679 --> 00:52:24,239
we're gonna bounce around the NBA and talk about random things,

1142
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,199
we can talk about surprises and disappointments and then get

1143
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,599
into why and be more specific and make it your own.

1144
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,559
The idea is maybe cookie cutter in the search of centralization,

1145
00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:37,039
which I totally understand, but like the actual content within

1146
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:39,559
it doesn't have to be and so I chalk most

1147
00:52:39,559 --> 00:52:41,840
of this stuff up too. There's that, And then I

1148
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,199
also think very I promise this as quickly the former

1149
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,400
players talking about this, I think there's always going to

1150
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,159
be will be guilty of it two by saying like

1151
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,599
our error is better than the next one. But I

1152
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:57,159
also think that because the level of money involved now,

1153
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,440
there might be a tinge of resentment to where players

1154
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,199
in the nineties as non stars weren't making anywhere near

1155
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,440
even when you account for inflation, what role players are today.

1156
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:09,519
So maybe there's sort of an undercurrent of resentment there.

1157
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,400
I don't know, And that's the That's the other thing

1158
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,679
is we I do think a lot of us have

1159
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,079
to acknowledge that in order to make impressions of the

1160
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:17,159
game better. I don't know that we can pretend to

1161
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:19,239
have like I won't speak in absolutes about it, is

1162
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:19,960
what I'm getting at.

1163
00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:24,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just to touch on the the idea

1164
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,800
of like the messaging that needs to be there, or

1165
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,039
like you know you what you what you hear? A

1166
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:34,400
lot in conjunction with this conversation is and JJ Reddick

1167
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,239
has said this, you know the people that are discussing

1168
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,079
the game and in prominent positions in the NBA media

1169
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:48,159
that spend a lot of time speaking ill of its

1170
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:54,440
current state, like it feels it's it's unfortunately like that matters,

1171
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:56,679
you know, like if the game is as good as

1172
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:58,639
you and I are saying it is, like, shouldn't the

1173
00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:01,400
merits of that just carry the day? And everybody who

1174
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,840
actually watches it will come to decide that, like, no,

1175
00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:07,760
this is great, Like I just look at the athleticism,

1176
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,679
look at the sophistication, look at the skill, look at

1177
00:54:10,679 --> 00:54:13,199
like there's no stiffs like anywhere on the floor and

1178
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,719
there used to be a minimum of two at all times,

1179
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,239
Like shouldn't that Like So it's it bums me out

1180
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,840
that we need to care about what the talking heads

1181
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,800
are saying. But that's just reality. And I think the

1182
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,760
problem is, and you hit on this a little bit,

1183
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,000
it's just like it's all now. Draymond is a bit

1184
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:32,719
of an exception, although he's at the end of his

1185
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,760
career and is just kind of liable to say anything.

1186
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,920
But it it is just guys that are back in

1187
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,960
my daying it like that really is you look at

1188
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,119
who all the prominent voices are that discuss the league

1189
00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:47,920
and it's retired players, and it's often like really really

1190
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,679
good retired players who for like lots of reasons, like

1191
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,880
feel like the game when they kicked ass at it

1192
00:54:56,039 --> 00:54:58,719
was its best, right because like that's kind of self

1193
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,239
aggrandizing in a way, like it was the best then,

1194
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,679
and I was the best at it, and therefore, like

1195
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,880
what happened what's happening now is worse Somehow. I just

1196
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:14,079
think it is true ultimately that we need more celebration

1197
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,679
of it, and we need more highlighting of like no, no, yeah,

1198
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,119
this result, this play resulted in a three. Look at

1199
00:55:21,119 --> 00:55:24,159
the fifteen things that had to happen in five seconds

1200
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:26,880
for that three to be generated, Like isn't that amazing?

1201
00:55:27,079 --> 00:55:31,599
Like I do think the audience can be sophisticated enough

1202
00:55:31,639 --> 00:55:34,280
to appreciate that sophisticated is the wrong word, Like that's

1203
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,159
a cool thing. And if you show a cool thing

1204
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:38,199
to people and explain why it's cool, they'll get it.

1205
00:55:38,519 --> 00:55:42,639
So that's what it needs to be. Because if you

1206
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,639
continue to allow the loudest voices to be negative ones,

1207
00:55:48,199 --> 00:55:50,800
then yeah, like I mean, look where we are in society,

1208
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,079
like this is this is not just a basketball problem.

1209
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:56,320
Like you can really steer public opinion by having some

1210
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,039
very loud voices say things that aren't true. So like

1211
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,079
it's just on people that actually care about the sport

1212
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,760
and appreciate like how much flat out better it is

1213
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,639
now to just say so and like say why it

1214
00:56:09,679 --> 00:56:10,760
doesn't need to be you.

1215
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,559
Speaker 1: Know, you don't need like a you know, thirty minute

1216
00:56:14,599 --> 00:56:18,400
video on like one play to explain what, like just point.

1217
00:56:18,199 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 2: Out the cool shit. There's a lot of it. Like

1218
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:20,679
it's not hard.

1219
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 1: I think the issue and that coverage exists, but I

1220
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:28,159
don't know how accessible it necessarily is. Because again that's right,

1221
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,239
then that's the needle to thread is like don't turn

1222
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,440
every like nobody wants to sit.

1223
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,079
Speaker 2: Through a science lesson. But like there's gotta be ways

1224
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,360
for like the more what's good about the more niche

1225
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,800
coverage that diehard like nerd fans care about. You got

1226
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,719
to find a way to package that so that a

1227
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,239
broader audience cares about it. Like that's maybe that's a challenge,

1228
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,880
but like it will help the game grow and make

1229
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,480
more money and be more appreciated for what it is

1230
00:56:56,519 --> 00:56:57,280
if you can do that.

1231
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,519
Speaker 1: I do, and I honestly think it's an insult too,

1232
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:03,239
thiscation of let's use NBA fans specifically to just assume

1233
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,480
that you can't do it this way and that the

1234
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,840
only type of engagement is rage engagement that's worth pursuing.

1235
00:57:10,039 --> 00:57:12,960
So the accessibility thing is just a big one, And

1236
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:16,639
I just don't know. I don't I'm maybe things change

1237
00:57:16,679 --> 00:57:18,840
with the way like now Amazon and NBC are getting

1238
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,760
in the fall, everyone seems optimistic about some of the

1239
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,159
cast they've put together. I will say this is the

1240
00:57:23,199 --> 00:57:25,079
cynic in me. I'll just believe it when I see it,

1241
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:29,320
because I've even seen outlets broadcast partners invest in this

1242
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,400
stuff kind of, but then they get away from it

1243
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,199
so quickly because it's not working out as much as

1244
00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:36,599
the people who are maybe driving these decisions. They're not

1245
00:57:36,679 --> 00:57:39,320
invested in the actual game of basketball or the way

1246
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,480
it's covered. They're just invested in the bottom line. And

1247
00:57:41,519 --> 00:57:44,400
so if you see Kendrick Perkins going on air and

1248
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,360
saying that, you know, LaMelo Ball is better than Michael

1249
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,079
Jordan or something, I'm just throwing something ridiculous like that.

1250
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,239
Speaker 2: You personally believe by the way you've told me that

1251
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:52,920
in confidence.

1252
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's like I feel like that wasn't spicy enough.

1253
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,079
That's a real take that someone can and should have.

1254
00:57:58,519 --> 00:58:00,960
So I don't I don't necessarily know what the answer

1255
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:03,159
is there though, and I don't really know who to

1256
00:58:03,239 --> 00:58:05,719
lay it at the feet of, because even the NBA,

1257
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,679
for as an example, has these alternative broadcasts that you

1258
00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:11,000
can access to where it's like the guys from it.

1259
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:13,039
I'm not saying you have to love it, like Nate

1260
00:58:13,119 --> 00:58:15,559
Duncan and Danny LaRue doing these alternative it's a different

1261
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,840
viewing experience than just listening to the you know, the

1262
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,920
regular broadcast who are listening to the national televised ones.

1263
00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:25,639
Like the alternatives are out there, but they're not marketed

1264
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,239
that way like the game is marketed as. I don't

1265
00:58:28,239 --> 00:58:31,840
even know what the game is marketed as anymore. You

1266
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,800
kind of just gets into All Star Weekend a little

1267
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:39,000
bit where uh mort had said, like it unfolded like

1268
00:58:39,039 --> 00:58:41,079
it was a bunch of lawyers in a room that

1269
00:58:41,159 --> 00:58:43,639
were just kind of out of touch with what like

1270
00:58:43,679 --> 00:58:45,480
the product needed to be. And you have kind of

1271
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,880
a differencepin on that, which I find interesting too. And again,

1272
00:58:48,159 --> 00:58:50,119
all this stuff we're removed from all Star Weekend now,

1273
00:58:50,119 --> 00:58:51,840
But I think this shit matters when it comes to

1274
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:53,960
driving interest in the game.

1275
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that's that feels like a

1276
00:58:57,559 --> 00:59:01,639
miss to me because the people that are deciding what

1277
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:07,599
happens at All Star Weekend are the ones with the

1278
00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:14,519
most information on and greatest incentive to like drive audience

1279
00:59:14,599 --> 00:59:18,039
engagement like like, so that's to say, it's marketers, it's

1280
00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:21,400
branding people. It's people that work at the NBA collecting

1281
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,480
data on like what fans like the most, Like do

1282
00:59:24,519 --> 00:59:28,239
you really think like they're not. The decision making process,

1283
00:59:28,519 --> 00:59:31,840
I guarantee you is built around how do we make

1284
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,639
this appealing to the most people in the audience subsections

1285
00:59:35,719 --> 00:59:39,760
that we care about? Like so, and I think this

1286
00:59:40,159 --> 00:59:44,960
so like I have a hard time believing that, like

1287
00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:48,519
the NBA is not throwing like every resource at how

1288
00:59:48,559 --> 00:59:51,000
do we engage? How do we make people enjoy this?

1289
00:59:51,079 --> 00:59:53,960
How do we make people care? Pay attention? Whatever? And

1290
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:56,639
I think and I'll throw myself in this bucket, like

1291
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,320
not super interested in All Star Weekend? Not super inches

1292
00:59:59,639 --> 01:00:02,039
could not be less interested in mister beast like doing

1293
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:04,719
a half court shooting competition or like in the Mac

1294
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,119
McClung of it all that that was actually really fun.

1295
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: That was fun. Like Kevin Hart. In my life, I

1296
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,400
use a lot less Kevin Hart. But you know what,

1297
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:12,840
you know who likes this is getting my point? You

1298
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:13,920
know who likes Kevin Hart?

1299
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,119
Speaker 2: Young people. I'm not a young person, like, so All

1300
01:00:17,119 --> 01:00:19,480
Star Weekend is not for me. All Star Weekend is

1301
01:00:19,639 --> 01:00:24,599
for like people of an age, and this is mostly

1302
01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:28,000
teenagers and kids that the NBA is targeting to build

1303
01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:31,880
lifelong fans with stuff they like, which is to say,

1304
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,679
if you're like twelve, because I can remember being twelve,

1305
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:37,960
holy shit, Like, look at all these players that I

1306
01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:40,760
really like. They're on the same team. They're gonna play together,

1307
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,800
and they're gonna play against a team with a bunch

1308
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,159
of other players that don't play together except for today.

1309
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:48,280
That's insane. Like if you're of a certain age and

1310
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,639
you're not jaded like we are and haven't seen thirty

1311
01:00:50,679 --> 01:00:54,000
All Star games, the novelty of that is still gonna

1312
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,440
like blow you away. So that's one thing. The other

1313
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,400
thing is I had a friend that took his son

1314
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,559
that's like a tween to to the arena and it's

1315
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:05,440
like everyone lost their shit for mister Beast. He's for them. Like,

1316
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,039
so the NBA is putting is like appealing to the

1317
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:10,519
customer base. I think it actually cares a lot about

1318
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,880
and it's thinking hard about the ways to do that.

1319
01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:16,119
Kevin Hart's part of that, you know, mister Beast is

1320
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:18,480
part of that. There's not a whole lot of great

1321
01:01:18,519 --> 01:01:20,800
excuses for like the downtime. I don't know what you

1322
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,119
do about that. That feels like a mistake between the

1323
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,760
actual All Star Games plural. But like, I think the

1324
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,239
league is actually succeeding in a lot of ways. I'm

1325
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,800
not persuaded by the like, well, look at the brand engagement,

1326
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,000
like no miss me with that we're talking about like

1327
01:01:35,039 --> 01:01:38,360
what's interesting to fans? I think for it's just it

1328
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,199
isn't for me. But I and so like, I don't

1329
01:01:41,199 --> 01:01:43,880
think the league really cares that much if it's successful

1330
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,599
in reaching me or like impressing me with All Star Weekend.

1331
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,280
I think it is for younger people, and I think

1332
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,199
it they did like it. I think, like that's the

1333
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,039
thing is the people that are complaining about it are

1334
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:58,000
not from that demographic, and I think all the evidence

1335
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,599
suggests the NBA cares about that demograph and not so

1336
01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:02,960
much us, We're gonna care about the league no matter what.

1337
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,199
It's trying to grab new people. That that's that's the

1338
01:02:05,239 --> 01:02:05,719
whole game.

1339
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: That's and that's it counts the miss on my part too,

1340
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,480
because my whole interpretation of Mister Beast being there was well,

1341
01:02:11,519 --> 01:02:14,639
how much of a like crossover is there between mister

1342
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,760
Like is mister Beast drawing in new viewers? But maybe

1343
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,840
it's more of a thing like, well, our viewers already

1344
01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:22,679
like are into mister Beast type of logic, And so

1345
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:25,280
I might have dismissed that too quickly. Yea, I do

1346
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,440
think what you touched on, and we've already talked about

1347
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,079
it in relation to the actual game. This is another

1348
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:32,679
instance of mythologizing the past, as it you put more

1349
01:02:32,679 --> 01:02:36,760
distance between it, like and yourself because All Star games

1350
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,079
they make it seem like Kobe was out there like

1351
01:02:39,119 --> 01:02:41,199
that's when he tore his achilles, was like really like

1352
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,199
trying to win the All Star Game. No, like, that's

1353
01:02:44,239 --> 01:02:46,119
these all like it was about when I was younger,

1354
01:02:46,159 --> 01:02:48,880
like seeing the different jerseys and then the highlights, which

1355
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,000
is just you want to know why the NBA's invested

1356
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,039
in those and those are all over a Bleacher reporter

1357
01:02:53,079 --> 01:02:55,320
or an ESPN app like, that's probably the stuff kids

1358
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:57,159
are interested, like, oh my god, Steph Curry threw a

1359
01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:01,239
lob to Kevin Durant or something. What I do wonder though,

1360
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:02,960
and you mentioned we mentioned this a little bit with

1361
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,679
the Draymond Green in his comments. Do you think, like,

1362
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:09,440
how much does it matter. Let's say, as an instance,

1363
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:13,079
that Lebron James dealing with this ankle thing and that

1364
01:03:13,239 --> 01:03:15,199
ends up not playing last minute, his spot could have

1365
01:03:15,239 --> 01:03:16,840
gone to someone else, But it's also we didn't know

1366
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,559
he wasn't playing, and that's someone that is putting butts

1367
01:03:19,559 --> 01:03:21,760
in seats and people want to see. Do you think that,

1368
01:03:22,199 --> 01:03:23,760
even though I'm sitting here and saying I don't think

1369
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,280
players went full boar in the All Star Game in

1370
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,519
years past, do you think that there is still maybe

1371
01:03:28,559 --> 01:03:32,599
a disconnect now with like how much of an obligation

1372
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:34,920
they view it to play in that game versus then,

1373
01:03:35,039 --> 01:03:37,960
or is that you know, is that also being exaggerated.

1374
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,239
Speaker 2: I think when you start messing with the format of

1375
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,400
the game, and to the extreme degree that they're messing

1376
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,960
with it now, I understand it seems like logical for

1377
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,960
players like Lebron to say like I'm okay, Like I

1378
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,239
don't need, I really don't need to be involved in

1379
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:54,960
this now because it's like we're headed towards the Pro Bowl,

1380
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,599
which is flag football, you know, like that that feels

1381
01:03:57,599 --> 01:04:00,559
like the direction we're going, and that may not be great,

1382
01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:04,000
but I think, like, again, it's not for me, Like

1383
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,079
I've seen enough All Star games. I get it, and

1384
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:09,000
like the ones that I romanticize are the ones I

1385
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:11,440
watched at a certain age that captured me, Like I'm

1386
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:13,760
already captured. We can you and I can complain all

1387
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,079
we want. We're not doing that, but like and fans

1388
01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:19,159
of our age and our demographic can complain. The league

1389
01:04:19,199 --> 01:04:23,800
already has us I And so it's just it's just changing,

1390
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,599
and everybody that's like enjoyed something for a long time

1391
01:04:26,679 --> 01:04:30,280
is uncomfortable with change and uncomfortable with like no longer

1392
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,440
being the top priority of a thing that they used

1393
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,079
to be the top priority for right And I think.

1394
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant kind of hit it on the head when

1395
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,239
he said cancel it because everyone likes to complain about

1396
01:04:39,239 --> 01:04:41,519
the NBA more than watch it. Well, and he's not

1397
01:04:41,639 --> 01:04:44,920
I mean that's hyperbole in some respects, but it's you

1398
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,840
get to what he's saying, because there's when we've gone

1399
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,039
through the dunk test, will another star do it? It's

1400
01:04:50,119 --> 01:04:52,079
kind of the same thing here where it's just there's

1401
01:04:52,159 --> 01:04:54,800
more for these players to loan than gain, lose than

1402
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,559
gain at this point by doing something extra because they've

1403
01:04:57,559 --> 01:04:59,559
become a meme, or they're not trying hard enough, or

1404
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:02,039
they should played better. And that comes with the territory

1405
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:04,559
of making so much money and in an age where

1406
01:05:04,599 --> 01:05:08,639
just everything is just quantified, collated, like disseminated, like in

1407
01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:11,960
an instant, And so I understand that they're compensated accordingly,

1408
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,119
but I do think that comes back to bring this

1409
01:05:14,159 --> 01:05:18,840
for full circle, is would perception among fans be as

1410
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,280
negative or is inclined to just think about the discourse

1411
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,519
following Lebron not playing it was I saw a bunch

1412
01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:26,440
of segments. I didn't watch them in full, but like

1413
01:05:26,719 --> 01:05:29,559
I grew up on Kobe and I'm tired of First

1414
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:32,239
of all, I'm tired of fucking hearing Shack's name when

1415
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,320
it comes to like working, Like did you even watch

1416
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,079
back then? He was just bigger and he was great,

1417
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:39,400
But like, don't pretend that Shack is like the billboard

1418
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,280
for diligence when it comes to your career. But like

1419
01:05:42,639 --> 01:05:44,840
that's the immediate thing we pounce on, is rather than

1420
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,079
like you go take me through that All Star game

1421
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:50,599
that you're talking about, whereas they gave it there all otherwise,

1422
01:05:50,599 --> 01:05:53,280
shut the fuck up, because you can be you can

1423
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,079
criticize the game without just being doom and gloom about it.

1424
01:05:56,159 --> 01:05:58,880
And it just feels like everything we latch onto when

1425
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,400
it comes not we pecifically or everyone specifically. Too much

1426
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,960
of the negative or low hanging, low browse slants are

1427
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,800
latched onto because we think that this is what either

1428
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,039
fans want or is the only thing they're capable of

1429
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,519
appreciating or responding to. And I just don't believe that

1430
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:15,119
that's the case.

1431
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 2: I think the foundational issue is that, like every algorithm

1432
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,440
in every social media platform will tell you that negativity

1433
01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:29,480
spreads faster and feels louder and does better than positivity,

1434
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:34,199
and so like that's just I mean, you could you

1435
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:36,440
could cite that as the reason a lot of talking

1436
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,639
heads are shitting on the game. Is like that sound

1437
01:06:39,639 --> 01:06:43,159
bite's gonna get spread faster and farther than them saying like,

1438
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,599
you know what, game's pretty good, or the All Star

1439
01:06:46,679 --> 01:06:48,920
Game was fine, or like we're saying not for me,

1440
01:06:49,199 --> 01:06:52,079
Like that's that's just where we are with It's not

1441
01:06:52,199 --> 01:06:53,280
basketball specific.

1442
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: No, it's a weird human condition, right, because what are

1443
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,800
you more likely to do just at large? Are you

1444
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,679
gonna go leave a review about a positive experience you

1445
01:07:01,719 --> 01:07:04,000
had at this restaurant? Or you more likely to leave

1446
01:07:04,039 --> 01:07:06,440
a review like something goes someone had a really bad

1447
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:08,000
day and like your food was wrong or they were

1448
01:07:08,039 --> 01:07:10,199
nasty to you. It's just it feels like we're more

1449
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,960
conditioned to respond to negati or come even voice our

1450
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,440
negativity than to voice our positivity.

1451
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, All Star Game's fine and or it's not for me,

1452
01:07:20,159 --> 01:07:22,599
so so I don't care. Well, they should probably revert back,

1453
01:07:22,639 --> 01:07:24,519
But if they're going to stick with this format, that's

1454
01:07:24,519 --> 01:07:26,159
the same thing with what we're just talking about. If

1455
01:07:26,159 --> 01:07:28,639
you're changing coverage, like you need to give it more

1456
01:07:28,679 --> 01:07:31,400
than a second right with it. Yeah, and I agree

1457
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:33,320
with that even if it's not perfect. Let's give it

1458
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:37,039
five years and see how it goes. Trim the downtime

1459
01:07:37,079 --> 01:07:37,639
in between it.

1460
01:07:37,679 --> 01:07:39,599
Speaker 1: And I'm saying I will say I'll stand by this.

1461
01:07:39,679 --> 01:07:42,239
I don't think less basketball. When it comes to basketball,

1462
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,559
is ever the answer for best that we agree on?

1463
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:46,480
How about we close on that. You're ready to think

1464
01:07:46,519 --> 01:07:46,840
us down of that?

1465
01:07:47,239 --> 01:07:49,199
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for listening for watching. Let us know what

1466
01:07:49,239 --> 01:07:51,880
you think? Uh, if like, what do you say to

1467
01:07:52,039 --> 01:07:54,480
because if you're watching or listening to this, presumably you

1468
01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:55,400
do enjoy the game.

1469
01:07:55,639 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: What do you say to people that if you're through

1470
01:07:58,519 --> 01:08:01,119
the age of twenty five? Specific I would love to

1471
01:08:01,159 --> 01:08:04,119
know yes and and prove me right and say you

1472
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:06,039
care about mister beast and he's not for me and

1473
01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:09,679
that's fine because I'm old. Thanks everybody for listening for watching,

1474
01:08:10,239 --> 01:08:13,639
Rate review, subscribe, leave us our comments here on coming YouTube,

1475
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:16,760
Join our discord, which is another place we can you

1476
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:18,840
can engage with us and discuss the quality or lack

1477
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:20,720
thereof in the modern and duleague game.

1478
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:23,119
Speaker 2: Link for that YouTube.

1479
01:08:23,159 --> 01:08:26,079
Speaker 1: Podcast description shouts Frank mil Keena apologies chaired Allen