Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasiko's I Am Dana Valley coming at
you with the One the Only Mister mort Jensen of
the NBA podcast fame, of Forbes fame, and of Yah
Yahoo Sports fame, as well as OnlyFans. Celebrity plans have
been scrapped, as we are inclined to do this time
of year, because the New York Knicks have fired head
coach Tom Thibodeaux after five seasons, fresh off giving him
a multi year extension last summer, and I believe he has.
Ian Begley said he had like ten plus million left
for the next three years at least on there. So
they're taking quite a bit of a hit. In the
statement before I throw it to more that Sham's had
for the report was that the knickser is basically hell
bent on winning a championship and they believe that a
different voice is going to change things for them. That's
where we're gonna pick up off and running. But first,
the question everyone wants to know the answer to more,
how the heck are you?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well? So is the ketchup state that I
apparently have on my shirt? So yes, it's it's a full.
Speaker 1: Hot blood from when you saw the news and you're
such a TIB's loyalist that you bit part of your
tongue off in blood trip.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm pretty sure. I even brought up tips
in our coach's Hot Seats segment that.
Speaker 1: Was which, by the way, I think was fair. But
it is noteworthy when you make the Eastern Conference finals
and then get fired. I would say fairly, it is noteworthy.
Speaker 2: But are we shocked at all? Really? So, so here's
here's I'll take you through my reaction slash thought process.
Because we were having dinner when I saw the notification.
I didn't even click on the tweet. I just read it.
I was like huh okay, and kept going at it
to be honest, because it wasn't because you know, I'm
Homer Simpson and just focusing on the food. It just like, yeah,
not surprised, Like I just put my phone down pretty quickly.
It's like that makes sense because look that the noise
around him has just been too much. Like this has
been a thing all year long. Every Knicks fan has had,
you know, He's or her moment where they're like this
is enough, and you have media punt. It's also saying look,
this is becoming an issue with the lack of bench
usage and the lack of offensive creativity and so on
and so on. So at some point I was just like,
you know what, unless he wins the title, I'm really
sure we're at least looking at a discussion here.
Speaker 1: I think that's a fair way to look at it.
And I want to make it clear. I mean, anyone
who's ever listened, if you're stumbling onto this for the
first time, you may not know this, but on this podcast,
I have never once been what you would consider a
TIBs supporter. But I do think context is important here.
I believe that Tom Thibodeau is a was a problem
the Knicks. I do not actually believe that he was
the problem. I think he showed some growth, and I
think that it took him too long to get there.
I mean, he explored more of his bench by the
end of the playoffs. Again, why weren't you doing that
all season? He finally got rid of the starting lineup
which was May for most of the year, and then
lost it two minutes during the playoffs. Took you too
long to do that. But what I keep coming back
to is what else was he honestly supposed to do.
That would have made this exact roster more of a
contender than it ended up being. And it's not to
say that I think he was the right coach. I
think I guess The two things I'm getting caught up
on is, if you're getting rid of him, you better
believe that you have the upgrade in mind. And I
don't know. I think Michael Malone is a really good
head coach. He feels a little tibsy into me. You know,
if you want someone to go, oh, we need to
see more of Tyler Kohlik next season. That would have
made a difference this year. That's not really your guy.
But the other thing I keep getting hung up on
is the Knicks game up control of seven first round
picks last summer. They brought back Mcal Bridges and Karl
Anthony Towns, neither of whom is nor have they ever
been a true number two option. And I think the
Bridges opportunity costs things the most. But he is even
further away from a traditional number two option than Karl
Anthony Towns. And the issue with Towns is, you know,
I criticized him a lot for the three point volume
he was at per minute, the lowest he was since
the first time he was with Tibbs as a head coach,
which the jokes going around are actually funny that Kat
got TIBs fired a second time. I do find that
little hysterical. But like you can't like if Towns has
never really been a number two and he's battled these
offensive inconsistencies and involvement issues, He's never been a great
live dribble playmaker. There's always been sort of the why
doesn't he take more threes about him? I don't know
how much of that you can't I won't even say
falls on Tibbs, but is something that a new coach
is going to fix. And I think what's gonna be
the big question here is that. And I would argue
that this can This definitely was Tibbs's fault to an extent.
The Jalen Brunson Karl Anthony Towns dynamic deteriorated as the
season went on, and so I was just writing about
this before we hopped on. But up until January first, more,
Jalen Brunson assisted on over twenty percent of Karl Anthony
Towns's buckets. That number plummeted from January first to when
Jallen Brunson got injured. Then it plummeted again to about
like fourteen percent during the playoffs. It feels like by
the end of the year felt like they were two
separate entities. It felt like they were better off in
staggered minutes than together. And that's a problem. And I
will also before I throw it back to you, I
will say it's a problem that even if you think
it can be solved offensively, I don't know that it
can be solved defensively. This might always be a team
where you're looking at it and saying, oh, no, like
the nick just aren't going to be able to cobble
together this really good defense with those two in the
game at the same time. And so what you're then
I would assume banking on is well, there was just
so much left on the table offensively, and that was
the bigger issue here where people look and they say, oh,
fifth in point score per possession, how much better are
you supposed to get? Well, they were fourteenth from January
first onward. And I know Brunson missed time with his
ankle injury towards the end of the year, so I
understand the logic is what I'm getting at, and I
think it might even end up being the right decision,
But I also don't think that it can be the
only change that is made just because I don't. I
don't look at this roster, after having seen it together
for ninety plus games now and think that's a team
that would beat the full strength Celtics, or that's a
team I know would beat the Calves, or that's a
team that you know, them making this decision by the
way we're recording this, you know, like thirty six hours
before the NBA Finals, them making this decision before potentially
witnessing the thunder, just establishing hey, no one's even close
to touching us. I also find that fascinating too, So
a lot of moving parts here. But if I had
to sum it up, my long winded ran away of
saying is I think it's justifiable, it might even be
the right call. But I don't think that if they
just run this roster back and add like an eighth man,
a different maybe an upgrade over the seventh man, I
don't think that's going to be enough to turn them
into the team that it's not just that they were
trying to be, but I would argue that they have
to be after you expended so many of your assets
last summer.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I agree with you very much along
the way here because I wrote a piece over at
Yahoo as well, where I also kind of pointed to
management saying, given the roster that he had to work with,
there are some shortages here and there, like the bench
for example. Are we supposed to sit here and say
tips could have created a strong product when the best
bench player is Mitchell Robinson and he didn't come back
until when was that like March March? Right?
Speaker 1: Seventeen regular season games he played it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like virtually no regular season experience this year, and
Pacombe Dottier like a nineteen year old Frenchman who's getting acclimated.
Like that's just that's tough, right. You can say, oh, well,
Cameron Pain is a veteran. Sure, he's also Cameron Pain.
So there's a limit. There's some limits to what you
can expect right at a certain level. Now, I will
say I do think Landry Shammitt that was a little
unfair to camera, But I mean, you get my drift.
I do think Landrew Shammitt wasn't utilized enough like this.
This was a team that too often needed three point
volume and just a player who could come in and
stretch the floor, and for some reason you didn't play Shammit. Like,
I know, he's inconsistent, but he will have games where
he goes like six for nine. He will have games
where that three is sticking and he could actually help them.
So for him to get so many games where he's
playing like ten minutes or even not playing much at all,
and that was dumb. That was that was just ridiculous.
So it's again, it's one of those situations where you
actually said it Tips was a problem, not the problem.
I think that's the best takeaway from this. But I mean,
you have to solve issues one at a time. So
if TIPS was a problem, now you have to fix that,
and then afterwards you have to fix the roster. You
have to find ways to get depth right. So if
you get a coach in who is more let's say,
proficient in regards to minute's distribution and in just in
terms of building a bench unit that kind of works,
and also not playing all five starters over thirty five
minutes per game in the regular season, that might also
just be a factor.
Speaker 1: I can actually ask you a question about that. Yes,
of course I do tend to agree with you about
the minute stuff. But everybody finished the season healthy for them.
Do you think when you were watching them that exhaustion
played a role in how they ended up faring against
the Pacers? Because I looked at it as more of
a personnel like the talent and the strength of the
personnel issue, rather than man, look how many minutes they
logged up until this.
Speaker 2: Point, specifically against the Pacers. I don't think it was
that egregious, But I do think we saw plenty of
regular season games over the course of the year where
you saw a lot of those guys just huffing and
puffing and there wasn't a whole lot of gas left.
So you kind of wonder what would have been the
effect here if you had been able to shave off
some of those man's I mean we saw. I think
Cleveland is a good example. When Kenny Atkinson came in,
he basically played every one of the main guys in
the low thirties or late twenties. They had staying power.
Of course, they got injured at just the worst time
that their timing was awful, something that for some reason
seems to be flying under the radar. Everyone is trying
to break up the back quart right now, which I
don't understand, Like is.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, like I must be so in my I
haven't seen it.
Speaker 2: That's like when I say everyone, I don't mean media,
I don't mean like analysts, I mean like fans. That's
I keep seeing it pop up in like, you know,
on Instagram, on Facebook, like the comment section, like oh
this backboard, and I'm I've seen it a ton, and
I'm just like what, what? Why? Why is that a thing?
You have to run things back, and you have to
run them back in order to also optimize it. Do
I think the Knicks were optimized given that Josh Hart
and Mikhail Bridges were both playing forty seven plus minutes
per game, that o Jananobi was also damn near forty
seven per game. No, I don't think that's optimized. I
think I would want a team that is that potent
in terms of like the raw talent level to enter
the postseason fully healthy. And if you can shave games
off just by having them play lesser a fewer minutes, yeah,
so be it. I mean it's good if you again,
I'm not gonna sit here and say, oh, mc kail
Bridges shouldn't play eighty two games per year, but he
will automatically save games if he goes from thirty seven
to forty two minutes per game, like he will just
kind of I don't I haven't done the math, but
he'll shave like what five six seven games off technically
over the course of a season. That's not nothing.
Speaker 1: No, it's not nothing. I guess it's just you have
the talent on this roster to continue to win basketball games.
While doing that. I think you could argue that the
Knicks needed to. I mean, it's probably more egregious when
you look at their losses that they have and they
were over there twenty nine of them this year or
thirty one of them, excuse me, And so you could say, like,
why didn't he pulled? Like for sure, So I would
agree with you there, But then that comes back to
sort of the the depth issue of it. Does I
don't know how much he was supposed to extend it,
especially with because until much Robinson comes back, you're dealing
with six dependable players. And I agree with you on
all your Landry sham At points. I think he kind
of proved as much during the playoffs, where even gave
him some fight on defense too, like defended some of
the pacers as big provided some ball pressure of their own.
But he was dealing with a shoulder injury for half
the season, and so it's like, when he comes back,
how are you supposed to integrate him to the train
that's already moving. So it's complicated, and so I think
I think there are kind of two more questions just
to ask on this subject. And the first is are
there any names that you've seen or that you can
think of that you think makes sense to slide in
here to replace Thibodeaux? And if there's sort of a
dearth of answers on either one of our ends, like
that sort of speaks to I won't say how problematic
this is, but how risky of a gambit the Knicks
are making right here. It's a good question. I look
this having a couple hours ago.
Speaker 2: I haven't really duck down and like looked at available coaches.
I'll be completely upfront about that. What a thought that
did hit me was kind of scouring the college ranks
and trying to identify some of the most potent offensive
coaches out there, because I do think this team needs
to lean in on offense a lot. Like I'm not
gonna sit here and say, oh, you have a meeting
with Josh Hart and Mikilbridge is a no gen and
nopan you tell all three hey guys, stop playing defense.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you have
to make sure that offense is the you know, the
drying vehicle of this and what Josh Hart Mkilbridge's no
genit nob he gives you defensively. Obviously it's also going
to be necessary, but the focus should be on optimizing,
you know, floor spacing, three point volume offensive diversity, because
let's just be real, it's a lot of one or
two pass go offense for tips. He's not exactly a
mastermind offensively. He never has been. So I would like
to see that narrative or not narrative. I would like
to see the script just flipped a little bit, and
if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but I at
least want to see it. I've told you this before.
I think there is a version of Karl Anthony Sounds
who can average like an efficient thirty per game. I
think he's that good of an offensive offensive player, he
has to be geared towards it. But he also needs
to have a coach who understands how to implement him
and use him and kind of encourage him to take
more threes, encourage him to take more shots. And I
just don't think Tips is that guy.
Speaker 1: I'd be curious to see if they'd be willing to
go in a first time direction. I think this front
office has gone against the grain under Leon Rose relative
to the Knicks that everyone memed years ago, So it
wouldn't shock me if they're trying to get in on
you know, Chris Quinn. It just like seems like one
of the more coveted, just like assistant guys. But it's
also just you know, I mean, we saw the Lakers
do it with JJ Reddick just as one example, and
that's a high pressure job with a first time head coach.
But I part of me just feels like it would
be fairly surprising to see them go with the first
time roun. And I hope, honestly, I hope, just for
the memes and the jokes, that Jay Wright gets an interview.
I hope that he just gets an interview just to
the Villanova connection. And then, by the way, that's another
part of this. I'm assuming you consult Jalen Brunson about
this after he takes such a below market deal that
his extension last year, so I guess he wouldn't have
like defended or like prevented them from doing it. But
if you did do this and didn't like kind of
get his approve or stamp okay, that would be weird
and I would just be curious how he would process
all of this because I would argue that he's been
more supportive of Tibbs than like ninety five percent of
star players in the NBA are of their head coach.
So that's just another weird wrinkle.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd be kind of surprised if they didn't
talk to him. But at the end of the day,
he also seems to be very low maintenance, so maybe
they kind of bake that in and go, hey, you
know what, like he'll find a way.
Speaker 1: Well, does Rick Brunson still have an assistant coaching job?
How does that work? Now?
Speaker 2: Just make sure my dad is okay, Yeah, imagine he's
the next head coach. Yeah, all right, that'd be funny.
I'd be there for that narrative. Funny, No, I can't imagine.
I can't imagine, but like, yeah, even if you go
out and scoured like the assistant coaches around the league,
that'd be fine. I wouldn't hate that. Also, I wouldn't
hate to see them also begin to make additional hires
around the marchines. So, for example, the Bulls inexplicably fired
Peter Patton, their shooting coach, a guy who really made
a name for himself when he was in New Orleans.
We all know Chicago didn't have great space and going
into the season he turned that around. I think they
ended up being like the second best three point shooting
team in the league. Then they fired him because management
or idiots like hiring him to a new head coach
and having him work a ton with Josh Hart and
Mikail Bridges, who seems to be changing his jump shot
every seven months. Maybe getting some sustainability there, Like just
whoever you hire, I wouldn't stop there with a head
coach and then just his normal army of assistance. I
want to be proactive about this and go in and
get the best guys for the job. You have to
if you want to have a crack at it.
Speaker 1: I was already kind of hoping that maybe they would
figure out a way to bring in Terry Stotts to
help run the offense next season just under TIBs, Like
that was sort of I thought that was I don't know,
maybe TIBs wasn't open to it. And we have the
report from I think it was Ian Begley that James
Dolan was present in like some of these exit interviews
with players, which is very atypical, and so was the
decision already made? Did he consult these guys about the
TIBs thing? But I just wondered, why didn't you maybe
do more to futs and fiddle with the staff under
TIBs if you were looking for a more creative offense
or someone to be just like give the input of like,
hey we need to extend the rotation or try this.
I honestly, like I said, I'm not shocked, but I
am mildly surprised just given that I don't know that
this is a like when a coach get fires, it
feels like it's a no brainer because there's obviously a
clear upgrade or like air apparent out there, or they
just lost the locker room entirely. And now we know
what Michael Bridges said a couple months ago, and we
know that Towns and Tims don't have like the best
track record together. So maybe there was some stuff like
festering that then bubbled to the surface and this was
reached the point of no return. But I think that's
the part that why I'm still mildly surprised is that
this doesn't feel like a no brainer decision to me.
I do want to have a final question I would
ask on this is what is the like, the next
biggest problem? Then for them, we're gonna have more on
their offseason. It's coming shortly everyone, I promise, but just
as like not necessarily going into the weeds and addressing everything.
But what do you view as this team's because I'm
assuming unless I'm detecting something, I'm not like, you don't
view this as a contender is currently constructed? Right? Or
do you think that the head coaching change does kind
of prove to be the skeleton key that puts them
on that level?
Speaker 2: No? No, I mean you need one more thing, and
that's that's stepped. We already kind of kind of covered
that a little bit. I think they're closer than what
most people make them out ask because they do have
the top tier town level. I mean, there's just no
debate about that. They have great, great, top tier talent.
I think it kind of flew onto the radar a
little bit because Mikail was Let's just be real about this,
Mikail was sort of a disappointment here in year one.
It wasn't just his three point shot, it was the defense.
You and I have talked about that at lengths. He
wasn't as plug and playable as you hoped he was,
especially for what you relinquished Tory services. So he'll need
a bounce back year and again, if Cameron Payne is
one of your key pinch guys, you're just not going
to make it that far. He shouldn't be playing in
the playoffs, he shouldn't be playing a lot, generally speaking.
So if you fix the depth, if you get a
creative offensive coach in there and perhaps a shooting coach,
and you kind of work around the margins with some
of the stuff. I actually think they're closer to a
title than most might make it appear, as I think.
Speaker 1: The biggest question they may still need to answer is,
do they think that predominantly Karl Anthony Towns is a
four or five? Because I think that impacts how you
go about fleshing out your debt. Well, then you're saying
that you can build a capable defense around him and
John Brunson, and I don't necessarily know if that's the case, Like,
what do you to upgrade from Josh Hart on the
defensive end? Reduce McBride in those minutes is just and
then if you're gonna say, well, Mitchell Robinson and then
that slides Karl Anthony Towns to the four, and that
creates other sorts of issues to where those minutes are intriguing.
Don't get me wrong, but if you are worried about
kar Anthy Towns and Jalen Brunson not being involved in
enough actions together, inserting someone else who needs to be
the primary screener in Mitchell Robinson isn't going to help that.
But if you do decide that's the best course moving forward,
you then need a third big for sure, because I
know you can stagger Mitch and Karl Anthony Towns, but
when they're beginning games together, that just gets inherently more
difficult and so like, a precious to Chua isn't gonna
cut it. You need a third, either someone to start
in lieu of Mitchell in and he comes off the bench,
or just bringing a capable Bacon come off the bench.
And if you view Karl Anthony Towns as a five,
then I think what the question then becomes is like,
how do we either optimize the defense around him or
what's the player? What's the starter we need to add
to optimize the offense between him and Jalen Brunson. And
we know it's not Heart in that instance, it won't
be Mitchell Robinson. Deuce McBride played forty minutes more in
total in the regular season in playoffs with the four
other starters that aren't Josh Hart so like, and that's
just really tough. And this bleeds into well, they don't
have a first round pick to trade this summer, and
at most they're gonna have the mini mid level, which
comes in at five point seven million dollars to spend
in free agency. I don't know what. Maybe that gets
you a like a really useful player, Does it get
you a starter, Does it get you a sixth or
seventh guy? I don't know. But like, that's just they're
in a tough spot to say even if you want
to boil it down to they just need more depth.
They're a tough spot to carve out more depth. And like,
I just don't think the answer is in house, I guess,
is what I'm saying, because it's more of You could
say Tim isn't good at developing the youngsters, but I
don't know if more of Pacomb Dottie or Tyler Kohlik
would have moved the needle in the right direction for
this team. And they weren't nearly dominant enough in the
regular season to say, hey, let's get these guys reps
while still winning fifty plus games.
Speaker 2: No, definitely not this year, but I do think it's
fair to wonder next year, like with a new coach
who might emphasize depth a little bit more. If you
can get it, maybe you'll split it, split up Mitchell
Robbins's contract into two pieces that like.
Speaker 1: You can make twelve million dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I understand, I understand, and that's that's rough
as hell, But like, perhaps you can find something. I'm
not saying it's gonna be easy. That's I'm not I'm
not in that chair. I'm not getting paid millions of
dollars to make those decisions. But I mean, that's why
you have to scour with the market. That's why you
have to like turn every stone. But my point here
is if Tyler Kollick and co Daddy a place more
minutes next year in the regular season, when both are
a year older now they have a year of experience roughly,
I just wouldn't hate it. I'm not saying that's going
to be the solution, but I'm I'm the type of
person who would always prefer to shave off minutes from
my starters if I can get away with it. Of course,
I agree with you, you need something else, and I
do think finding a third big is some preciously to you. It. Yeah,
absolutely is something that should be on the docket. There
are a lot of things that should be on the docket.
Speaker 1: Would you consider the answers and she just mentioned Mitchell
Robinson turning him into two players? Is there any realm
in which the answer is, well, can you turn Karl
Anthony Towns into two or three rotation players and you're
better off that way.
Speaker 2: It depends on the rotation players. I would say I mean,
the talent level is ridiculous. I'm not pivoting off that,
but I do agree that if you find the right
recipe where you can say, Okay, we turned Carl into
this and you get two high end starters in there
who just compliment everyone else perfectly, obviously you should look
at that. Yes, I'm not sitting here and saying Carl
should be untouchable, but I am saying I think we
dramatically underestimate his offensive potential, offensive impact. If you know,
if he's let out of his handcuffs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, I guess that's fair. Do you have
anything else that you want to get off your chest
about this decision which you seem a little bit less
surprised about than I did, But we're both skeptical that
it's going to make enough of a difference.
Speaker 2: I look, there's been this thing for so many years
where Tips has had like a three year shell life
in a way, where like he's been this and then
he's kind of I don't know, maybe he's just dragged
on his players a lot, and the players are starting
to tune him out. Five years I think he had
in Chicago, five years he had here with the Knicks,
was it three in Minnesota? Somewhere along those lines. It
just it's not surprising. It follows a pattern.
Speaker 1: Yeah, again, I don't think it's shocking. I just thought
I I guess I was just under the guys that
knowing that I don't think that, And this is just
me thinking that I don't think that this is going
to fix enough of what needs to be fixed. I'm
just curious as to whether this signals the front office
disagrees in that context of no, like we think the
team is basically in place and a new coach bay
the difference, or is this just one of I don't
want to say many, but one of a couple of
significant changes to come over the offseason. I do have
a question which just not tips related.
Speaker 2: So almost immediately after they got bounced, I don't remember
who had this, but there was this talk about all
the team is frustrating, frustrated about Towns and his defense
and not understanding some of the teams and whatnot. Is
that what you're baking into your I want to say
town skepticism, like just the is it strictly the defense
or similar to it?
Speaker 1: No, I think it's the offense for me too, it's
just like the defense is okay. Maybe a new coach
won't play him and drop coverage as much. I don't
know if that's necessarily, Like how good is Karl Anthony
Town still is the center if he's not, Like, I
just don't I don't know what that looks like. So
I'd be skeptical of that for sure. But on offense,
it's the aggression waxes and wanes to a point that
and even when he's aggressive, it's like, you can't really
he's not elevating the play of others around him. And
then if the vision really was five out his three
point volume, which was the lowest it's been since Tips
was coaching the Timberwolves, is like that doesn't fly. And
then it's is that a Karl Anthony Town's problem and
we have a track record of him not taking as
many threes as everyone would want throughout his career or
is that a Tips thing? But then even you look
when he's aggressive, it's all right, like the live, dry
playmaking just isn't there. And I think the bigger issue
is can you keep him aggressive and involved alongside another star?
Because it felt like and you could say this about
og could say this about mchael Bridges, but they're not
supposed to be what Karl Anthony Towns is. It just
feels like he fades into the background too often and
his aggression was most unlocked, and the data supports this
when you put him in lineups not just without Jalen Brunton,
but lineups that were basically devoid of any offensive alternatives,
and so you have to do this and just like
that's I guess good that he proved he could do that,
but it's alarming that it takes such extreme circumstances because
is this someone who It makes you wonder unless everyone
around him is just an all NBA defense level player,
It's well, how does he fit into a larger ecosystem
where there's at least one other offensive superstar near him,
but also a guy in mckail Bridges who you would
expect more from and og kind of made some offensive improvements,
especially during that time Jalen Brunton was out. And that's
what I'm skeptical of is that I don't know how
Kong Anthony Towns at both ends of the floor. I
don't know if he impacts the game enough as part
of a larger ecosystem, and if you're trying to designe
everything around him, I mean defensively you wouldn't, but offensively
it's all right, Well that's I guess it could work.
But like if the idea is we just need to
stagger our two best players from one another as much
as possible, that's like, this isn't Evan Mobley versus Jared Allen,
where there's just redundancies. It's no these two in theory
should compliment one another. But and look, it could be
on Jaln Brunson a little bit as well, to where
it's is he better off with a pick and pop
big like Towns or it seems like he's more comfortable
working with the Mitchell Robinson type, where it's a really
hardscreen center who has that role man gravity. And you know,
if you can combine Towns and Mitchell Robinson into one player,
he might be great if you're the Knicks, but you can't.
And so Jalen Brunson is the pole star who is
going to determine everything for the Knicks, and I think
that's something that they need to take into account when
they're building out this next team. And maybe it's just
we expended so many assets here, we're invested in this core.
We see if a different coach could change it. I
really do believe, though, that there's a chance this wasn't
so much a necessary change as the easiest change that
they could make.
Speaker 2: I think that's fair.
Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty five NBA Finals primer time, the Oklahoma
City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers, the matchup everybody and
their mother predicted at the start of the season. Of course,
although fifty percent of this matchup is everyone probably might
may have had it penciled in. So let's start tactically more,
what's your biggest question on the court for this series?
You could start on whichever side of the fence you prefer.
Speaker 2: Well, so, Miles Turner for me is a question mark.
I love him first and foremost, I really do. I
think he's he's improved so drastically over the past two
seasons offensively, and that he needed to Like he was always,
you know, an elite shot blocker, someone who took up
a lot of space in the paint, even though he
wasn't a great rebounder, and I felt like he needed
to do something and he became this higher volume offensive player,
and I think that kind of bridged this game a
whole lot. Now I'm kind of wondering, can he really
get away with a lot of those sci shots that
he's getting. Is he going to be like exclusively a
four space floor spacer in this series? Because you're going
up against Issa a Hard and Stein and chit Holmper.
That's a lot of length, that's a lot of grit,
that's a lot of size. So, Miles Turner, if he's
going to be effective in this series, which you know,
we're all hoping he will be because that is going
to mean a better product for all of us, how like,
what is the game plan to get him involved to
a higher extent where you can see, you know, him
being optimized offensively.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting and I think I would wonder and
I would at least try it if Oklahoma City goes
to these smaller lineups and he finds like smaller players
on him in those smaller lineups, more he's gotten better
at punishing those mismatches. Yeah, Like even kind of from
the outside interf he's working on the block. I'm not
saying you funnel the entire offense through him, but if
that's the look Oklahoma City goes with I think he
could actually capitalize on it. And that's kind of why
I wondered, like one of the things that I have
bullet pointed here is it almost just like this might
just be a dual big series from Okay see more
so than it was even like at points in Minnesota.
Just to kind of not derail that thing specifically. But
you have Turner and you have Siakham and maybe you're
kind of saving the smaller lineups for like the Obi
Top in minutes or if they you know, if the
Pacers are rolling out Thomas Bryant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be nice. That'd be very nice to
see it. And that's like, I just think he's a
necessity at this point. We can talk about Allie, we
can talk about Pascal. I just think you need production from,
you know, one of your main stays, because if he's
not going to produce, who are you going to funnel
those shots too? Are you going to try to stretch
out Benedic Mathrin Because I have a sneaky suspicion that's
not going to work out well for the Pacers if
you force him to play it, you know, in a
higher volume pace than he's accustomed to and then honestly
in connection with the Miles Turner stuff, and this is
like probably a bigger question. We've talked about Haliburton a
lot on this program, and we I think this was
back in November, late November, perhaps you and I started
talking about, like what kind of player is he this year?
Because last year he was like at the twenty six
and twelve before he started getting injured, and then he
kind of settled in like eighteen and nine, and we
started wondering was this just the new norm? Like is
he going to be a guy who actually chases big numbers?
Like what is he like where statistically is what is
his like wheelhouse? Now we kind of figure it out.
He's one of those guys who isn't really worried about
the numbers. He's not worried about going out and taking
twenty shots. He'll be just fine scoring eight points if
they win by ten. He's not that dude. But I'm
wondering in these finals if he can allow himself to
think that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he's become really good at reading the
game and understanding when it needs to be either a
night or if it's a moment where he's gonna have
to do more. And I think Game six against the
Knicks kind of prove that where it was he's having
a relatively quiet night and then he just goes in
and you know, floater floaters them to death in the
fourth quarter. Essentially that bodes well, but you're facing a
different type of pressure than you did. You know, we
had what was that Game five where the Knicks really
just like up to the pressure on him. That's not
even like a taste of what Okac is gonna throw
at him. And so like that kind of leads into
one of the big things I'm thinking about with this
series is you have these teams where they they were
two of the fastest teams when it came to running
their offense after a make by the other team. And
so I'm just gonna be so interested to see sort
of the chess match going on here where it's India's
special because this offense is unpredictable, even in the half court.
It's free flowing and they don't turn the ball over
a ton going up against OKC, which not only were
they first in like the percentage of plays they forced
turnovers on against their opponents, they've actually upped that turnover
percentage in the playoffs. Now you juxtapose that against Indy though,
and what they've done a really good job of And
they don't do it as I would say, unrelentingly as
Oklahoma City, but they can bring like the full court pressure,
that intense ball pressure as well. That's like that might
actually be the biggest reason why the Knicks felt like
they never stood a chance against the Pacers, like after
Game one. And can they do that consistently against Oklahoma City?
And is there one of these teams that break from
you know, they're not high turnover teams. Does that change
going up against either of these defenses? And I think
if you had to predict, you're saying, well, the Pacers
are kind of in for a root awakening because of
how generational the Thunders defense is. But just there's I
don't want to say these two teams are just stylistically similar,
but defensively, like the way that they can defend, the
pressure they bring, there are some similarities. And then the
fact that they both like to play faster on the
offensive end when they can, there's sort of some more
overlap there, and so it makes for just sort of
this interesting chess match of what does it actually come
down to. Is it to the team that actually defends better,
or is it the team that figures out a way
to really catch the other side off guard? After me
to where it's I mean, like that's the Pacers killed
the Knicks. It was the Knicks defender the Pacers in
Game six like it was the first time they ever
played the Pacers. Whereas all those leakouts after makes those
are not going to happen against Oklahoma City. So I'm
just I'm sort of fascinated to see how those two
styles where again where it feels like there are some similarities,
what happens when they clash?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, And look, that is what we're all looking
forward to. I've said it since both teams made it
to the finals. This is going to be basketball porn.
I'm very much looking forward to the day to day changes,
the adjustments, how they're gonna stylistically change from one game
to another. Tactically. This is gonna be a good one.
I'm very much looking forward to it. Should we stick
with one team before pivoting to the other, or do
we just go mixed match and just bring up whatever
is this?
Speaker 1: Are you still on the tactical side.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think we will be for a while, yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's something else out at me.
Speaker 2: All right, So this is actually something I just was
thinking about when you said, you know how Miles Turner
has been better in the post and basically abusing smaller players,
And I was starting to think technically Chet is a
smaller player just in terms of, like he's still pretty skinny.
He doesn't have that strength on him when Hartenstein is
off the floor and Cheed is in. Could that be
sort of an underrated matchup? Like would you dare not
necessarily funnel shots to war smile turn like he has
to be in move but like he's getting like he's been.
He was also skinny when he came in, but he's
added muscles, he's added strength. Could he be able to
finish place against Chet or maybe even draw a couple
of foles on him. That's because that would change the
course of an entire game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also kind of led me to wonder,
do you not put Chet on Miles Turner for that reason?
And it's I don't know that you necessarily want him.
I think you want Hartenstein on Siakam just for like
the extra physicality there, But like with Chet, it's could
it make more sense to I mean, like the thing
about the Pacers is there's not a there's not a
lou Dort on their team to where it's, oh, we're
gonna stick you on lou Dort and then you can roam.
At the same time, it's do you gamble and say, well,
go guard Andrew Nemahart and do that, or maybe you
try to get away with it with Aernie Smith. Is
it something you exclusively like in some of the you know,
the bench units for the Pacers, where you know, if
that's Ben Sheppard, then you know, gets to be easier
to go that way, or even if it's better Nic
Mathrin for that matter, because I've been curious, I'm the
foul troubles an interesting element of it. I think will
probably see Chet on Turner, but I'm also kind of
wondering if we do see Chet kind of oh they
want him to just sort of muck up stuff, do
a lot of a ton on the back line, and
if Turner's going to space the floor, you put him
on a smaller player. Pick your poison there, whether it's
Niece Smith or Nemhart and go that route.
Speaker 2: But it is interesting that the one position where okay
See doesn't necessarily have i want to say, a ton
of depth. And it's not a problem because this is
a team that one sixty eight games. They have players
who can just kind of pluck into that spot, but
they don't really have traditional force in many ways, and
the Pacers have two of those who are both offensively
very dynamic. So you either have to guard up like
taking a couple of wings and like throwing them into
a you know, against those fours, or you have to
like ask Chet to play down so there could be
a speed advantage offensively for the Pacers at that spot.
Like but this it almost feels dumb to like bring
up the bench or like one position, Oh, can Pascal
Siakin Pascal Siak him an Obi top and can they
turn this series? Because you're still looking at a thunderd
team that is like perversely well rounded.
Speaker 1: And that's you know, So one of my other questions
here would be we saw Indy's bench struggle at points
during that Knick series, and I'm just wondering to where
it's you know, your defense struggles with siakam off the
floor you know your offense is going to struggle with
Tyre's Haliburton on the floor, what do those secondary lineups
look like against? I would say it's more concerning from
INDI's offensive perspective, with Tyre's Haliburton off the court, what
do you look like in those secondary lineups against Okac's defense?
Because spoiler alert more Okayse's defense is going to be
a little bit better than New York's defense. My bold perish,
I yeah, that is bold. It's a good question.
Speaker 2: I mean, you you got a stacker as well as
you can, I think in this series. But you also
don't want to throw helper or see how come into
lineups they haven't had any experience with. So it's it's
gonna be a tough dance, uh for Rick Kyle Ile
I think and like even if you if you if
you get the best version of t J. McConnell, who
I love, by the way, it's it's this isn't me
trying to trash him, like, but even if you get
the best version of him, Like, what is that? Like?
Speaker 1: Is that is that the thunder being able to leave
t J McConnell and it helps that Okay, he'll have
the ball in his hands a ton, so it's like
you can't really like leave him, leave him necessarily, but no, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah he's gonna put up like a nine foot jumper.
Oh no, that's that's gonna beat us. So like you
have to find ways to like exclusively blade to your
strengths for each player, like Benedict Mathern, you should have
like one purpose in this series, and that is, whenever
he has the ball, just draw files whatever you can do.
Take the word of foul, merchant, overshape, taking it away
from him, just get to the foul line. He's not
that pretty well this postseason. By the way, for free
frowin simps per game in sixteen sixteen minutes.
Speaker 1: He also you mentioned it sort of jest, but he
actually might be a big deal when you're talking about
those secondary lineups or even primary lineups as a fifth
member where if you need to go at okay C's
defense and like Pascal Siakam and Tyre's Halbert and like
it's just not working, you're going to need that third
type of creator. And I think, yeah, you default to
Andrew Nemhard, but just getting Mathriine with someone who is
more accustomed or more enthusiastic about contact and just bigger
as well. He could be sneaky big for them in
this series.
Speaker 2: No, I was serious, but like you have to stream
streamline his role. The thing is, I don't want Benetic
Mathron out there drippling eight times between his legs and
just trying to you know, think I'm on that.
Speaker 1: God, Yeah, I mean sorry, I was gonna say. That
does bring up another question now, where it's so going
back and looking at and I know, I don't think
check played in either of the games against the Pacers
this year, but he's like Oklahoma City's defense did a
good job during the regular season of getting the ball
out of Tyre's Haliburton's hands. And so who do you
trust the most to go up against that pressure of
Tyre's Haliburton has to be displaced from the ball? Is
it nem Hard or you know, is it Matherin, Is
it McConnell, Like, who are you trusting the most in.
Speaker 2: That hard in the playoffs?
Speaker 1: It?
Speaker 2: And it's so his contrast, he's the weirdest player, right.
This is two years in a row where his offensive
production or just generally production has been worlds ahead in
the postseason and the regular season. Is he just a
lazy regular season player? Is that we can sum up lazy? Yeah,
that's what that's flying season.
Speaker 1: I think if he was healthy this year, he reply
would have made all defense. So I don't want to
say he's lazy, but he might have that Jimmy Butler
Jean where he can just pack the offensive apparently.
Speaker 2: Look, when I say lazy, it's within NBA context, because
no NBA player is lazy. But no, it's just it's
so funny that he just steps up every single time
in the playoffs, and like when it comes to the
regular season, he's just oh, humming awayte kind of love
the approach. He's just kind of saying, you know what,
I don't need to get up for this game against
the Hornets. Doesn't matter. Like I'm good, I'm fine. Let
me just let me just get ready for round one.
But he's definitely the person I would trust the most
when the ball is forced out of Halley's hands, at
least from a promoter player. If the ball is like
forced inside, yeah it's Siakam. I feel pretty confident Witham
on the ball as well.
Speaker 1: What do you make of sort of the primary like
like star versus defender lineups. Let's start with Shay. Who
are you trusting? I know it's been mostly Nemhard this year.
I believe I would have advocated for Aroni Smith actually,
but now he's dealing with that ankle things. When wondering
if it can't even be him.
Speaker 2: I mean, look this, this is gonna sound cliche, but
you can't defend a guy like that with one guy
like you. It has to be a revolving door of
different players. It's a shame that jars Walker is going
to miss the first two games as well. He's i think,
really improved defensively this year. I would have loved to
see him with like his big frame, and he's quick
on his feet too. That would have been fun to
see on Shay. I know he's a bench guy who
doesn't play a lot, especially in the playoffs, but in
those few minutes he'd be out there, I would have
tried it out, just for a couple of possessions to
see what happened there. But no, you know, Nemhardi is
one Nie Smith. I'm glad you brought him up. I
think that's a perfect and reasonable player to put on him.
Even TJ who's sort of small but like he'll get
in his grill. It's on, He's not afraid. Ben Shephard
might also be the unsung hero here. I think he's
more physical than we give him credit for. I think
there are some defensive chops there as well. So like,
Shay has to see a whole bunch of different bodies
and it just doesn't have to be like one or
two guys. You have to keep rotating so many different
looks on him.
Speaker 1: Who do you expect to see, Let's say so after
lou Dort, who spends the most time on Tyres Halberton Caruso.
That probably makes sense. I could see like it'd be
I hope we see Shay on him, just because I
love this star for star matchupson Team started playing around those.
I was wondering if it could be j Dubb, But
maybe J Dub is like, oh, like we see him
guarding Myles Turner more and like the Thunders get like
really weird. So Caruso's probably maybe Kason Wallace, though they
have a whole bunch of.
Speaker 2: Different all of them again, but I think Caruso is
gonna be like when if if you find yourself in
a tough game, like close game laden the fourth. If
I'm mark the ignoaled, I'm I'm going to Alex and
I'm just gonna say, lock him up, go get him.
That's it. Like, here's the thing. Caruso is their best defender.
Like that's just he is. He didn't play a whole
lot because he didn't need to play a whole lot.
He played less than twenty minutes per game this year.
He was just chilling and they were waiting for this opportunity.
Now he's healthy in the finals, you think they're gonna like, hey,
go guard Aaron NEI Smith. Fuck no, Like you can
play him against virtually everyone and he'll be successful in
degrees of course, because like if you go up against
Myles Turner, he'll get a couple of buckets on him
for sure. But he can guard effectively one through four.
Speaker 1: He got I mean, he can guard one through five.
I'm just like Alex Caruso guarding big man. Is that's
the thing. Now, I'll say he can guard one.
Speaker 2: It is. But like, okay, all right, all right, but
like imagine if this was the Spurs, would you trust
him on Wemby?
Speaker 1: Really? But you know what, more, this isn't the Spurs
all right?
Speaker 2: Fair enough? All right, well you copped out on that one,
but that at the end of the day, you got
to cut the head off the snake, you really do.
And that's Tyree's Halberton. He's still the main driver on
this whole thing, this old team, this whole offense, everything.
He's like the main hub So type game five minutes ago.
Do you bet you're sweet ass? I'm telling Alice Caruso
kill him.
Speaker 1: Do you worry about when you're just looking at the
thunder defense in totality? Aside from Tyrese Haliburton, Like, do
you worry about the Pacers losing their like kind of
ball control plot? Or they've been so good at valuing
possessions over all this entire year. And I think Pasco
Siakam's a good one. It's just like his I get
we're he's not nervous, but I get skeptical whenever he's
like attacking off the dribble and spinning because it doesn't
feel like he has the tightest handle, and like going
up against some of these other defenses one thing, but
you go up against oh, Oklahoma City's defense, and I'm
just like, oh, I feel like that's the player I
look at, just because he will be so heavily featured
where I could see him having some high turnover games
where there's just these like four and five point swings
because you give up an opportunity to score at the
basket at one end, and then Oklahoma City's hitting a
three or getting a bucket in transition at the other end.
Speaker 2: You know what be a high turnover game for Pascal
Siakam two two, that's a high turnover game for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna take the over.
I think he's gonna have a game where he has
at least four turnovers because that is.
Speaker 2: Not a single player, not a single player on Indiana's roster,
who in the regular season or in these playoffs are
averaging or even cracking two turnovers per game. Not one.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. I'm asking if you think that holds up
in the context versus.
Speaker 2: All well, I mean again to a degree, right, Like,
do I think that this defense specifically is tailored to
four curtain overs? Absolutely? Do I think we're going to
see an increase in turnovers for Indiana? Absolutely? Do I
think we're gonna see them turn into you know, a
high turnover team all things considered. No, No, I think
it's gonna be high for them, like in context of
how they are. But I'm not gonna sit here and say, oh,
their turnovers are gonna jump like thirteen and per game
to like eighteen. I think I like, I think they're
just too well oiled a machine to They do the
film work. They know what's coming, like, they understand the
passing lanes that everyone is playing. They know the kaison
Wallace is like an athletic freak who is just gonna
rip the ball away at the oddest times. They're seeing
these things, so I think their preparation level is gonna
be ready to absorb something. They're gonna go in. This
is gonna be a boxing match, right, They're gonna go
in there. They know they're gonna take a hit. They're
gonna probably take a couple. It's just a matter of
you know, what are we willing to do here to respond?
And I just I'm not nervous about the turnovers until
it's legit problem.
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else here? On the tactical side.
Speaker 2: Make shots. That's kind of important too for both sides.
The score points.
Speaker 1: I would ask who tightens up their rotation more, Rick
Carlisle or Mark Dagnolt.
Speaker 2: Neither.
Speaker 1: I think it'll be Carlisle. I think we kind of
saw a button up kind of towards the end of
the next series. And like I said, with some of
the bench you struggling against the Knicks, I wonder if
that will be the impetus for tightening it up a
little bit more.
Speaker 2: Again, well, I mean again it depends because if you're
met by dept I would have to assume the best
response is matching that debt. So I mean, you might
be right. But I think one of their main strengths
here for both teams is they can go to all
those those players. Like I will say, his rotation is
going to be shortened Carlos. That is by default because
Teris Walker is not going to play the first two games,
So that's one piece off the table. It's going to
be interesting. Maybe he stretches Ben Shippard a little bit more.
Speaker 1: What's your biggest storyline for this series? Is it former
Nick Nick's about to win the title? You have a
Isaiah Harder sign or will be top it that's mine?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Or do you want to rehash the dolmntes a bonus
trade or the no Paul George trade tree. This is
what I think of the Paul George trade tree NBA Finals.
Speaker 2: It's funny, right because we didn't talk about this podcast specifically,
not in great detail before we started recording, so I
didn't know which topics we were going to bring up.
Storyline is not something I thought about a great deal
like I but I will, you know what, I'm just
gonna pluck some of my own shit and turn that
into a storyline. The way these teams were constructed were
because I've written two articles about obviously about each team,
how they constructed, which trades were happening, and like how
they got there. And this is just another example of
how crucial it is to have people in the front
office who understand how to do shit right. And is
that a storyline only for us super geeks who are
interested in that in that kind of stuff, but I
do think is relevant. These are teams that didn't panic,
who prioritize multiple bites of the apple, who did trades
at the exactly right time to optimize the return and
not relinquish too much. Like these are two teams that
just knows how to do business off the court, and
as a direct result, they're facing off against each other
in the finals. Is that a storyline Maybe not, but
it's something I find extremely fascinating, And for week front
office teams or just general week teams out there, I
think they should take a serious look at both these
franchises and realize, oh, we have to look inwards. We
might have to start doing things differently, because these guys
are turning every single page, They're looking under every rock
for something and they're finding it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's interesting that they both they found
there like the person who could direct their entire offensive ceiling,
and then they sort of worked their way back from
there and they didn't take any bigger swings and Oka see,
not like it made a ton of trades, but like
you waited on signing Isa Hartenstein before you let this
group go through the playoffs last year with Shay at
the Helm, the Pacers like the Pascal Siakam trading incredibly
aggressive by their like historical standards, but not something you
do until you know that you have the guy and
tires Haliburt, you were still trying to, you know, shuffle
around your roster to get him when you made that
domas a bonus trade. I also think, look, it is
kind of interesting that for all the value the draft
has played for both teams, especially OKCE, but like their
most valuable players, like like the I think you could
argue the three most valuable players in this series were
not acquired via the draft, and Haliburt and Siakam and
shake gilg just Alexander and so you could quibble over
as j dub or Chet more important than Siakam. Sure
we can have that discussion, but that does show the
importance of not just making trades. But like when you
talk about sort of small market teams and I think
I don't It's not that I want to eliminate Okay
see from this discussion, but they just operate on this
different level. Sam Prest, he's been with that organization for
like twenty something years whatever it is. So Indiana just
like proving that, hey, like that's a team that goes
in there gets Pascal Siakam when he's on his way
to free agency. And look, the thunder were there to
an extent too with that Paul George trade, which set
them up with the team that they It's like you
trace Paul George that trade back to Shay and j
dub so like I like, and I've brought this up
a lot. I brought it up when the Cavs went
out and traded for Don eventual, even though they weren't
considered a primary team. I root for those types of
teams going for it. And it's not just I'm not
your small market versus flagship market type deal. I'm just
looking at it as you want to see teams that
some people believe are at a team building disadvantage because
the market they're in take these swings and prove that
they could build something not only that is so high
end they make the finals, but something that is sustainable,
that this feels right, that this feels like it won't
be the last time they'll be here. And so I
do think that is kind of a big storyline of
the series between these two teams. And it's also look
one of the storylines. I don't like getting into this.
I'm not I'm not getting into the league office upset
that's OKAC versus Indiana. This is kind of referendum on
like how we package the product that the NBA is selling,
and that's these are you've called this basketball porn. You're
this this series can end in an OKAYC sweep and
it might still be entertaining as help if you only
look at the series score, that will do it a disservice.
But if that's what we're talking about, if we're focused
on was SGA, the real MVP is Tyres Aliburton, an
actual superstar, so on and so forth, like it's doing
a disservice to the like what we're seeing from these
two teams, because you can't lean on just the traditional
big names. And i mean, like Shay is like I'm
not a big face of the face of the league
with like Shay is a face of the league type,
that's how good he is. And so you can lean
on that to a little bit if talking heads and
podcasters and writers and whatever want to have that discussion.
But this will be like, this is a series about
basketball where there's no one headed towards free agency. There's
no team that needs to make this big ass trade
when if they end up losing in the finals. And
I'm sure some people will advocate for it. This is
a series about basketball, and I'm very interested to see
and I'm hopeful that it will be made mostly about basketball.
I will now do my damn just to make sure
it's not, and I will begin wondering if the Pacers
lose in like five games, whether Tyres Alberton requests a trade.
I think that'll be the next few podcasts that I record.
Speaker 2: So you said in regards to people basically insinuating that
the league office are pissed at this series. I've spoken
a great deal with Mark Tatum, Deputy Commission of the League,
just about the state of the league, about parody, because
that's a question that keeps coming up, like are you guys,
is that this what you're looking at? Do you want
like the revolving dwarf of champions? And he's just underlined
this to me again and again and again. Yes, we
want the unpredictability. We want everyone to get the feeling
that every single team in the NBA can win it
every given the year. So I think the big market narrative,
the big market conspiracies that some people have their tinfoil
hats on about is becoming a little bit of a
bullshit factor. I had Howard Beck on my Danish podcast
a couple of weeks ago, and we're talking about the
NBA at large. We're talking about like NP conspiracy theories
and market sizes and how everyone seems to be putting
into this, and he mentioned he brought up this this example,
and I'm so glad he did it, because if he hadn't,
I was going to do it. Of David stern One
saying the best thing we can get its Lakers, Lakers
in the finals, it seems like that started an avalanche,
and that sentence has kind of been just brainwashing to
people as if that is how the league thinks. That is,
it has to be big markets, and it should be
Nicks Lakers every single year in the finals, or whatever
that is. I can say with absolute certainty, not what
the league wants whatsoever. They are very interested in maintaining
what is going on right now. Or we're going to
have seven different champions in seven different years. So whenever
you're see anything about like the narrative of oh the
league is disappointed, Yeah, that's bullshit.
Speaker 1: Uh cool. The other storyline I think is, well, I
was saying we're not going to give a credence and
then we just spend time giving a credit.
Speaker 2: I do, I do, go, Oh, that's not giving credit.
I'm just I'm just saying, like this is a perfect
it was. I'm amplifying your point by saying, this is
the perfect time to focus on basketball. Let the other
narratives die.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's an element of people like
us assume that it's gonna like people are going to
package this as an issue, so we're getting out in
front of it and talking about something that no one's
actually complaining about. I'm not as plugged into what people
outside of my silo, whereas I'm not following I guess
the types of content creators or networks, or at least
not paying attention to them that would be discussing whether
this is important.
Speaker 2: Sir, sir, we live in twenty twenty five and the
world right now is a little bit on fire every
single day of the week, and people are leading hard
into some of the wildest fucking shit that we never
thought they would. Yes, I think that's very much a possibility.
You could look, a report could come out saying Adam
Silver is secretly I lizard and people will buy. So
you know that's I'm just not ruling anything out here.
Speaker 1: The other storyline I have here is is like I
think this is gonna be a great measuring stick for
It's a great measuring stick for the Thunder, but I'm
more so looking at it because they are the heavy favorites.
The betting odds as we were recording, this is minus
seven hundred in favor of Oklahoma City. Are they really
that head and shoulders better than the rest of the league?
And it's like we saw Denver kind of push them
to the brink. You dispatch Minnesota in five games, and
now I know you're up against an Eastern Conference team,
So maybe it's not act an accurate portrayal of the
entire league since the West is so much deeper. But
as we talk about parody, you also the Thunder and
I said this on a previous podcast. They have this
feeling of an evitability to me. And it's just if
they rattle off one title here, I know, windows open
and shut all the time in the NBA, even when
you don't expect them to. They are a team where
it's like it's set up for them to run this
for a while. They don't have to worry about the
second apron stuff for a couple more years, and even
when they do, that's why you have all these draft
picks that you can kind of try and replenish your
rotation with these cost controlled guys, and then there's just
the point of like even looking at the next three years,
it's this series to me, like it's kind of on
the Pacers to prove it is. Okay, we know that
the thunder are kind of the team to beat at
this point, but like, how close is the rest of
the league, How close is the best the Eastern Conference
has to send? And I'm gonna be very interested to
see whether because I think the most popular picks not
to spoil predictions, but they're gonna be probably Thunder and
five or Thunder and six. I'll be shocked if I
see any thunder and seven or Pacers and seven, let
alone Pacers in five or something. So that's what I'm
gonna kind of just be tracking, is like, is this
still because we've seen the Thunder go through some self
sabotaging stretches as well, Like it feels like their offense
can still bock down at points not as big of
an issue against Minnesota, of course, and if they don't, like,
is there a chance that we emerge from this series thinking, oh,
the Thunder just they figured it out, Like those kind
of those those like clunky offensive stretches, they just don't
they don't no longer exist. Like j dubb is that
guy as the number two, that's what we was chet.
It's felt like over what the past like eight or
zero games, feels like he's just really come into his
postseason on And so I think there's a chance. And
this has meant no disrespect to the Pacers. I would
be rooting for them to make this a long series
to disprove this. But I'm kind of gonna be monitoring
to see how close is everybody to Okay, see right.
Speaker 2: Now, that's interesting. I mean, look, when the Celtics won
the title last year, I think everyone was kind of
expecting them because if everyone ran with the narrative of, oh,
if there's a team that could break the current stretch
of just one time champions, it's gonna be the Celtics.
Oh long, and behold where we are right now? Right,
So I get what you're saying, like, oh, they figured
it out, they could go on this run, they could
win multiple titles in a row. It's so hard to
win in the NBA, man, it's so freaking hard. And
just going getting back to the finals back to back
is ridiculous. So yeah, I mean it's gonna be a narrative.
It's gonna be a storyline. And I'm taking into the
year by year basis. I've learned my lesson of not
sitting there and going, oh, this team is definitely going
to A B and C next year. Like no, if
history have shown us anything, it's well, it's so unpredictable.
Speaker 1: I would agree with that. But also, like, this is
also just a team that is so good and so
deep that they're like even at the top, like they
could just be entering generational territory to where it's I'm
not saying that they're the like dynastic Golden State Warriors,
but like this isn't. And look, I made the mistake
of saying I thought the Nuggets were like this is
a team that's just set up to continue churning out
finals appearances. And so I totally understand the point of
and I'm not guaranteeing they're just gonna run off.
Speaker 2: Five, No, I hear you, And you're right. I mean,
look from a roster construction perspective, absolutely, from an age perspective, absolutely,
from a talent perspective, absolutely, you know they have the depth,
they have the contracts that work in their favorite Like,
I'm not disagreeing with you. I think of any seam
at the NBA, if they win this whole thing, yeah,
they are probably set up the best, better than anyone
else to go on, you know, a run of two
or three years where they can take it. But again,
like you said at a denvert, I said it with
the Celtics and and I'm just at that point where
I've stopped selling the skin before the bear shot. That's
why I'm reach like, I just I can't do it.
But you're right in terms of like logical thinking and
how the salary sheet is looking and everything. Yeah, absolutely,
this is like this has dynasty upside for sure.
Speaker 1: Who are your biggest X factors for the series. Let's
start with who's your biggest pacers X factor?
Speaker 2: How the hell did you just get a visual into
my mind? That's Aaron Nesmith an Alex That's great. Okay,
well there you go. So Aaron Nesmith. Obviously, I know
there's some ancle issues. I think he elevated himself to
a point where he's been underrated for all while now
because he's played on at the big scene, and he's
had the games that he's had. There's just no to
waste about it. He's a high end starter. Now he's
that dude. He's a guy who you know, his stat
line is never going to accurately portray he's important to
a team. It's never gonna match up. It's never gonna
sync up is probably the better term. He is overwhelmingly
important for them for defensive purposes, even on the glass,
or he will come in and have major games there
when you didn't expect him to. From a shooting perspective,
he moves the ball quickly, something that his assist rate
isn't really reflective of, possibly because it's more of an
hockey assist or even like a secondary hockey assist. He
just knows how to play the game. I think he's
a major, major player in this series just in terms
of like the defensive output, the offensive production, the off
ball gravity wildly important, and then brought up Crusoe already
in terms of just how versatile he is defensively, but
what we didn't talk about is his offensive capabilities. He's
a connector and like I think, for some reason, he
hasn't been viewed like in the context of connector like
Bruce Brown for example, but he very much is his
ability to relocate off of offensive rebounds and like get
the get the ball and like make a quick read,
be that a shot or a pass or whatever. It's elite.
He's so good at understanding when to move when his
guys turning his head. So these two guys are not
going to be the main stars. They're not going to
be you know, Ferry plus point at scoring averages, it's
not going to be any of that, but they are
going to be huge, huge CHEX factors throughout the entire series.
Speaker 1: Well for the Pacers, I probably, like Aaron E. Smith,
totally agree there. For variety's sake. I think Bennecmathren would
deserve an honorable mention there because if you're going to
need to generate offense, like you mentioned the free throws
and just the stuff that he's able to do on
the ball, if Okaysee does a successful job of getting
the ball out of Tyre's Haliburton's hands, you need another
safety valve. Aside from Pascal Siakam, you need another safety valve,
even aside from Andrew Nemhard. And he's probably Aaronisman's gotten
better like on conn of those that we know what
the shooting does, but on those like physical, those heady,
those shoulder drives. But Bennet mcmathern could still like he
can just light it up in a way that I
think even Andrew Nemhart you wouldn't necessarily predict that from
So I'm wondering if he becomes you know, we've seen
his role Wax and Wayne throughout the playoffs, but I'm
wondering if he becomes subtly important to the Pacers this series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are all good names. This is why I
love the Pacers, right, There are so many candidates here.
You can even argue, like Ben Sheppard, if is this
gonna be a Ben Sheppard series? Right? Ah? Man, this
team is just fun to watch.
Speaker 1: And I think for okay, see if you were gonna
go somewhere other than the Caruso route, I'm contractually abbligated
to say and Andrew Wiggins Aaron Wiggins. But Cason Wallace,
I think I picked him as an X factor in
the Timberwolves series if I remember correctly. But like that is,
if if the thunder decide, hey, we want Alex Russo
either guarding a big or we want him in more
of just like a chaos roaming role like Cason Watas
is gonna be the dude that gets a ton of
reps against the Tyres Halbert there then so or if
you're gonna go like against an Andrew nem Harder or
Benedict Maathern on the ball. So I think that that's
he's been an X factor for them all playoffs. And
I don't know, and I've mentioned this already, so we
have talked about it, but he's just in year two
and he's what in the top seven of what is
the NBA Championship favorite, Like, he's just in that rotation,
and it's the fact that he's been in the rotation
since he was a rookie too, is just sort of wild.
And now it's forget about the defense. I just trust
him as a shooter now, like when he I used
to just get a little cagey. Well, wonder why why
isn't he shooting more? When he gets it up, it's, oh,
I don't know that I expected to go in. I
just trust him to hit threes now and so the
thunder did it again there, So I mean, but you
could they're another team. Aaron Wiggan, you want to pluck
aj Mitchell, throw him in? Kenrich Williams. Is he an
X factor like he might be against some of those
pas bench units? Kenrich Williams, Isaiah Joe good, Look, anyone
who's a guard, don't? Okay? Like they use guard to
guard screens all the time. Let's just name all the
guards who might set screens. We got Isaiah Joe in there,
so this these teams, as good as they are, they're
also filled with like nothing but X factors after their
top two.
Speaker 2: Or three players.
Speaker 1: All right, more, it is that time. Would you like
to take us through your official series prediction?
Speaker 2: Oh man, putting me on the spot, Like the brain
says thunder and five, but the heart and I'm not
very good at listening to my heart, so maybe I'm
actually gonna do this for a change. My heart says
this is one game difference. My heart says thunder and six,
just because.
Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say. My heart says Pacers
in seven, like they're a team of destiny or something.
That's what I's waiting.
Speaker 2: I've only added a game, but I'm doing so because
I want this series to go long, and I think
with this okay seed team sixty is long, so I
you know what, screw it. I'm just gonna say Thunder
and six. Although my brain is disagreeing me with me
a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go Thunder in five. And I think, look,
Pacers fans, or I would encourage you to get angry
or you could thank me because I picked against your
team in each of the past two series and they
ended up winning. So maybe there's some sort of reverse
jinks going on there. But what I will say to
try and I want to make an embersence that I'm
not trying to disrespect the Pacers here. There is not
a team that could have come out of the Eastern
Conference this season the healthy Celtics that I would have
picked to have beaten the Thunder. The most I would
have given is maybe a full strength Celtics team six
games maybe, but I probably would have picked Thunder in five,
whether they were facing the Calves, the Knicks, the fully
healthy Celtics. I think that's how good this Oklahoma City
team is. And I did say this about the Celtics
after they won last year. Looking at the season in
a snapshot, I really do believe that we are going
to look back on this season, even more so than
some of us might have done with the Celtics, and
it's just gonna be like, Man, we overthought this entire
fucking discussion about parody because the thunder just exists, and
all those concerns that were manufactured about the secondary offense,
this team is just like no team is perfect. And
I do have some offensive questions about them still, and
we've seen some of them manifest in the playoffs. They
are so good, they can beat you in so many
different ways, and the ferocity with which they defend and
are able to sustain that ferocity is insane. And I
just don't think there's a team in the league this season.
I don't know what could happen before next season. As
to your point about don't declare them this dynasty yet,
I'm totally with you there. I don't even think there's
a team that can hold a ten foot poll to
them that was in the league this year, like the
way they were built this year, I just I don't
The Celtics again, full strength might have come closest to
me on paper, but I might have even like you
had your own offensive questions about them. I'm not saying
you specifically, but like they were, they weren't super top heavy,
but it's like, okay, after the top six, it's like
how much do you trust of Peyton Pritchard or Sam
Hauser and against the Thunder. So it's I will root
to be wrong in the sense that what have we seen?
So we saw five games last year, five games the
year before in the finals in twenty twenty or no,
we got six in twenty twenty. No, twenty twenty three
was five games, right with the Nuggets in the heat.
Twenty twenty two was six. The Warriors beat the Celtics
in six twenty twenty one. How many games did we get? Like,
I just want I want a game seven in the
NBA Finals. That's what I'll always root for. We didn't
get that in twenty nineteen, we didn't get it in
twenty twenty. So I want to see a game seven.
So I'm rooting to be wrong there. But I just
don't I think that even if the Pacers are able
to defend the Thunder well enough, and I won't roll
out the fact that they can, I think they're gonna
run out of answers. On Off it's against his Oklahoma
City defense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be interesting how we're like, look back at
this season in the playoffs if it turns out the
biggest threat to OKC was Denver right in some capacity?
Speaker 1: Does yeah, and that's like, yeah, that is the toughest
series they've had by far. It's not even close. Yeah, right,
especially because do you feel a sure Nuggets fan? Do
you feel better about that as a Nuggets fan or
do you feel almost worse to where it's you could
look at it and say, oh, we're not that far away,
or oh, we had this shot and had we done
something like five to ten percent better of like roster optimization,
like maybe we would be in the finals right now,
or then could you look at it and say, oh,
is the front office whoever's leading it? By the way,
as we record this, there's no lead. They have a coach,
they hired a head coach, kudos to David Adaman, but
they still don't have a lead basketball executive. Is this
going to be just I know that they're limited in
their ass sets some flexibility, but will this just be
a further impetus of to say we took the champs
that like that they blew through everybody else except for
us we got to run this back no changes.
Speaker 2: OK, then I feel worse than you feel.
Speaker 1: What it's like, we have to use our miniml on
someone that we need to offload with attached to second
round picks, because that's the tradition, and that's how that's
how we almost beat the thunder. That was the blueprint.
Speaker 2: God, they have so many questions, but that's what I'm saying.
It's such a weird year. If that was their biggest test, right,
like that was just the matchup thing. But like I
also said at the time, they needed to go through
a serious like that, Like they needed that. They went
up against the best player in all of basketball, and
they had to think outside the box. They had to
do things that they may not have felt comfortable with.
And I mean, I'm not saying that if they hadn't
like if how to phrase this, I'm not saying that
even if they hadn't met Denver would have lost against
Minnesota or anything of that sort. But I just I
think it gave them something. I think it gave them
some level of maturity and know how, whatever you want
to call it. I think it provided them with something
that they brought forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it wasn't an arrival. It was like an affirmation.
It's like, oh no, like this is what we all
were kind of waiting for, Like it's here. It's yeah,
it hasn't arrived, it's been here, but like this is
just them reinforcing as much. Yeah, that's fair moret so
with that, I have thunder in five, you have thunder
in three, which is a very interesting pick. But I
understand where you're coming from. This is gonna be I
think this, YERI is gonna be really fun and I'm
rooting for I'm rooting for myself to be wrong in
a sense that after two straight finals of only going
five games, I want to see a longer final series.
But with that are able to tell our listeners subscribers
where they can find you and all the work that
you do.
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, you can find me over at Blue Sky
at msj NVA, or you can find me at Yahoo
and Forbes where I do a lot of writing there,
the NV podcast and the Danish I guess us plus.
Speaker 1: Until next time, and as always, with the shout out
to the one, the only, the legendary mister Frank Nila Quina.
Mm hmm,