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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, South Florida
Speaker 3: in the seventies was one of the nation's most dangerous locations.
Speaker 3: Behind the image of sun and surf, young women were
Speaker 3: the victims of a brutal killer. In the mid.
Speaker 2: Seventies, over a dozen young women were murdered and found
Speaker 2: in Canal. These cases became known as the Flat Tire
Speaker 2: murders and the Canal Murders. Only one case was ever solved.
Speaker 2: More than four decades have passed since these crimes, and
Speaker 2: no arrests were ever made. This is the first book
Speaker 2: to explore these murders in depth, as well as a
Speaker 2: bizarre series of murders occurring in the years earlier, known
Speaker 2: as the Goldsack Stranglings. Interviews with the detectives that originally
Speaker 2: worked to solve these cases provide an intimate view of
Speaker 2: the attempt to capture the killer that terrorize South Florida.
Speaker 2: In addition to the cases themselves, the book explores several suspects,
Speaker 2: including the infamous serial killer Ted Mundy. Detailed maps of
Speaker 2: South Florida illustrate the complex canal system that became the
Speaker 2: victim's graveyard. The book they were featuring this evening is
Speaker 2: The Flat Tire Murders Unsolved Crimes of a South Florida
Speaker 2: Serial Killer. Special guest author, journalist and author Michael P. Burns.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 2: this interview. Michael P. Burns.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Dan, It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Very very interesting case and corresponding book.
Speaker 2: Let's get right to where you grew up and your
Speaker 2: connection to this story.
Speaker 5: I grew up in Miami in the nineteen eighties and
Speaker 5: nineteen nineties, and I really didn't have a connection to
Speaker 5: this particular series of murders until fairly recently. As I
Speaker 5: talk about in the book, one of the pivotal events
Speaker 5: in my childhood was the execution and the surrounding chaos
Speaker 5: regarding Ted Bundy in nineteen eighty nine, So that really
Speaker 5: that really struck a nerve and kind of brought to
Speaker 5: my attention that there are dangerous people out there and
Speaker 5: bad things happened. But other than that, growing up in Miami,
Speaker 5: it was very little crime at least where I was,
Speaker 5: and a very enjoyable childhood that I had there. So
Speaker 5: it wasn't until recently that I even became aware of
Speaker 5: what was going on there in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2: You say that you write that to your interest in
Speaker 2: these cases, the Canal murders and the flat tire murders
Speaker 2: converged with the arrest of the Golden State Killer. Tell
Speaker 2: us why.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I've been following true crime for years now,
Speaker 5: and the East Area rapist and the Golden State Killer
Speaker 5: were his monikers, and I became aware of him around
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen or so. This was before an arrest was made,
Speaker 5: and I thought the cases were extremely interesting. They were
Speaker 5: very very little in terms of physical descriptions. It was
Speaker 5: just this sort of ghost that was floating around California
Speaker 5: in the nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties, And like
Speaker 5: I said, became aware of this case, and I also
Speaker 5: became aware of the public interest in this case, it
Speaker 5: sort of took on a life of its own, and
Speaker 5: in twenty sixteen, the California Department of Justice sort of
Speaker 5: brought this case to public attention and said, we're looking
Speaker 5: for this guy. You know, thirty plus years later, we
Speaker 5: have not forgotten this is an active case. And that
Speaker 5: really caught my attention as well. So it kind of
Speaker 5: converged with law enforcement pushing for an arrest as well
Speaker 5: as the public interest in the case. And I thought,
Speaker 5: you know, once there was an arrest, it really was
Speaker 5: a awakening for me that cases from forty years ago
Speaker 5: can still be solved.
Speaker 2: Now, what was as you write, what is the purpose
Speaker 2: of writing this book primarily other than just to tell
Speaker 2: this story that's untold and people for the most part,
Speaker 2: it's unknown, But is what do you hope to gain
Speaker 2: from writing this book?
Speaker 5: I hope the same thing that happened with the East
Speaker 5: Area rapists and the Golden State killer, to bring public
Speaker 5: attention to these cases and ultimately to have some sort
Speaker 5: of resolution in terms of solving the cases if possible.
Speaker 5: And I do realize the limitations of law enforcement, but
Speaker 5: the fact that these cases have just sort of been
Speaker 5: forgotten really struck a nerve with me, and so I
Speaker 5: definitely want the public to know that these cases happened,
Speaker 5: that these victims are not forgotten.
Speaker 2: Right now in this book, these South Florida canals are,
Speaker 2: you write, as abundant as palm trees and swimming pools.
Speaker 2: Tell us about these South Florida canals. What is their
Speaker 2: purpose and why are they so prominent?
Speaker 5: Yeah, the canals in South Florida are ubiquitous. You'll drive
Speaker 5: a few miles and you'll see several, you know, along
Speaker 5: the way. They basically drain the marshy land of South
Speaker 5: Florida out to the Atlantic Ocean. They also provide defense
Speaker 5: against potential flooding due to hurricanes, which you know, you'll
Speaker 5: have a severe hurricane like the one in the nineteen
Speaker 5: twenties that killed thousands of people. So they were designed
Speaker 5: to drain South Florida make it inhabitable land, which it did.
Speaker 5: And there are twenty six hundred miles of canals crisscrossing
Speaker 5: South Florida like veins and arteries, and they all sort
Speaker 5: of moved the water westward to eastward out to the
Speaker 5: Atlantic Ocean. So the canals are everywhere. And I remember,
Speaker 5: you know, as a child there were a lot of
Speaker 5: fun for fishing. There was always a place to go
Speaker 5: if you wanted to fish. But they were dangerous as well,
Speaker 5: you know, kids would sometimes fall in. But they were
Speaker 5: just a part of life and they still remain a
Speaker 5: part of life for most people in South Florida.
Speaker 2: You talk about South Florida crime explosion in the seventies,
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about that explosion and how
Speaker 2: canals were involved as well. Well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, going back to the canal just to point out
Speaker 5: that they get dredged, and they are basically when they
Speaker 5: dredge them, they find everything from airplanes to parts to rockets, cars, bodies.
Speaker 5: The canals are basically a dumping ground for people that
Speaker 5: want to either get rid of stuff or stuff that
Speaker 5: they don't want anyone to ever find. So they really
Speaker 5: are quite interesting. When they're dredged, you'll find pretty much everything.
Speaker 5: But in the nineteen seventies there was a huge explosion
Speaker 5: of crime in South Florida, particularly Dayden Broward County, And
Speaker 5: it was shocking to me because I had a sort
Speaker 5: of bucolic view of Florida back then. But in terms
Speaker 5: of crime in nineteen seventy five, Florida itself had the
Speaker 5: third highest crime rate in the United States, and in
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five, Daid was the fourth in crimes per
Speaker 5: capita and Broward was sixth in the United States. So
Speaker 5: there was definitely a huge crime explosion, and I think
Speaker 5: gets foreshadowed a bit. It gets overlooked because of the
Speaker 5: nineteen eighties drug epidemic and crime surrounding that. But as
Speaker 5: I note in the book, even before the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 5: crime was off the charge in South Florida.
Speaker 2: You write about in the sixties, and you chronicle of
Speaker 2: these spectacular cases and the victims before we get.
Speaker 3: To the.
Speaker 2: Canal murders and the flat tire murders of nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: five and nineteen seventy six. So tell us why they
Speaker 2: were dubbed the canal murders and the flat tire murders
Speaker 2: before we we start going through the victims and what
Speaker 2: happened in early nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they got to name the canal murders because all
Speaker 5: of the victims were found either near or in canals,
Speaker 5: with one or two exceptions. But it was basically a
Speaker 5: series of young girls, all sort of fitting a general appearance,
Speaker 5: some as young as fourteen. There were three that were
Speaker 5: fourteen years old that were found in or near canals
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five, one after the other, so they
Speaker 5: got to name the canal murders by the local media
Speaker 5: backed then the flat tire murders were sort of a
Speaker 5: subset of those murders, and they occurred in the summer
Speaker 5: of nineteen seventy five when two women, Ronnie Gorlan and
Speaker 5: Elise rap were basically tricked because their car tires were
Speaker 5: deflated at a mall in Dade County, and their bodies
Speaker 5: were found the next day in canals, and police I
Speaker 5: think logically concluded that the tires were deflated, they were
Speaker 5: offered help, and then they were murdered. So those are
Speaker 5: the flat tire murders.
Speaker 2: Let's go through some of the canal murders and narctaristics
Speaker 2: of the killer and some of the characteristics of the victims.
Speaker 5: Sure, Like I mentioned, the victims were quite young. Three
Speaker 5: of them were fourteen years old, one was seventeen, two
Speaker 5: were nineteen, So these were young women. They were not
Speaker 5: prostitutes or drug addicts. They were pretty much suburban teenage girls.
Speaker 5: Some were engaged to be married. One was married, but
Speaker 5: there were no issues in terms of you know, drug
Speaker 5: abuse or anything like that. And they were all found,
Speaker 5: like I said, in canals in South Florida, different different
Speaker 5: ways as they were killed. But sort of through nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy five, a series of young young women in the
Speaker 5: suburbs were murdered and found in canals.
Speaker 2: How do the police begin their investigation in those murders.
Speaker 2: You mentioned one crime that was solved, and that's Judith
Speaker 2: and Austerling from Rushville, Indiana. So tell us what exactly
Speaker 2: these women were, where they were, in their lives, where
Speaker 2: they were in a position to be sure approached.
Speaker 5: What was the approach sure? Judith Oasterling was nineteen years old.
Speaker 5: She was from Indiana, and she kind of left Indiana
Speaker 5: and came down to Florida to look for adventure, looked
Speaker 5: for her new life, and she began working at a
Speaker 5: a health spa, which was sort of a generic term
Speaker 5: that was given to places that sometimes were fronts for prostitution.
Speaker 5: We don't know what she did at the place that
Speaker 5: she worked, but in January nineteen seventy five, she was
Speaker 5: found nude in a canal along US twenty seven, drowned
Speaker 5: and beaten. So that was really the first case that
Speaker 5: got the attention of law enforcement, and they put a
Speaker 5: lot of effort into investigations, investigating different suspects working the case,
Speaker 5: and it eventually paid off later, but that was the
Speaker 5: only case that was ever solved.
Speaker 2: Then you talk about Barbara Davis Stevens, who was twenty
Speaker 2: three years old and she was last seeing February twelfth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. What was the details of her murder.
Speaker 5: Well, Barbara was a Miami native. She was married to
Speaker 5: her high school sweetheart, but they had separated and he
Speaker 5: had moved to Hollywood, California. On February twelfth, nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 5: she went to the Gold Triangle department store near Dayland
Speaker 5: Mall in Miami. She made a purchase of two rock
Speaker 5: and roll records, and she disappeared. Her body wasn't found
Speaker 5: until several days later out behind a shopping center a
Speaker 5: couple miles away, and the autopsy determined that she had
Speaker 5: been stabbed multiple times. She was a very attractive young woman, blondehaired,
Speaker 5: with roots in Miami through her father, so she was
Speaker 5: a native. She was not like Judith Ousterling, who sort
Speaker 5: of had set up shop in South Florida. She was
Speaker 5: a native, and her murder was really heavily investigated. They
Speaker 5: eventually found her body after extensive searches, and.
Speaker 2: There was another aspect to it as well, that someone
Speaker 2: had said something that police can that he must have
Speaker 2: been a witness, and then it was and there was
Speaker 2: a message on the concrete wall as well, tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about that.
Speaker 5: Sure, police were looking into clues and interviewing people after
Speaker 5: they found her body, and they noticed that a magic
Speaker 5: marker had been used to write the following words on
Speaker 5: a wall, A girl was killed here, and I saw
Speaker 5: it with an exclamation point after it, which clearly would
Speaker 5: get law enforcement's attention. They put a lot of effort
Speaker 5: into finding out who possibly could have written that, and
Speaker 5: eventually determined that it was a prank from a teenager
Speaker 5: who broke down in tears when he was finally confronted
Speaker 5: by law enforcement about that. But that just kind of
Speaker 5: shows the kind of directions that the cases went in.
Speaker 5: There would sometimes be some hot leads and but they
Speaker 5: would be pursued, but they never really amounted too much,
Speaker 5: except in JUDITHO. Stilling's case.
Speaker 2: After Barbara Steven's murder in Miami, you write about Arietta
Speaker 2: Marie Shaw Tinker seventeen. She was last seen in April
Speaker 2: ninth at a restaurant that was known to be frequented
Speaker 2: by the Outlaws motorcycle club. What happened to her? When
Speaker 2: was she found? Give us the particulars.
Speaker 5: Yes, Arietta Tinker was a seventeen year old married woman.
Speaker 5: She was a mother as well. She had an infant
Speaker 5: at home and she was dropped off at the Hippopotamus
Speaker 5: restaurant in Fort Lauderdale and after spending a day there
Speaker 5: on a day at the beach, she disappeared. And she
Speaker 5: was eventually found in the Snake Creek Canal near US
Speaker 5: twenty seven on April ninth, nineteen seventy five, and it
Speaker 5: was really unclear as to the cause of death. Eventually
Speaker 5: it was determined that she drowned, and it was unclear
Speaker 5: whether there was foul play. But it leads to a
Speaker 5: serious question, how did this woman with no car end
Speaker 5: up drowned in a very very remote canal near US
Speaker 5: twenty seven.
Speaker 2: Judith Asterling was also found in the Snake Creek Canal.
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 5: That's correct, And that's the canal that's parallel to US
Speaker 5: twenty seven, and I talk about US twenty seven in
Speaker 5: the book. It's a very isolated road. It really is
Speaker 5: a just a corridor between central Florida down to Daydeon
Speaker 5: Broward Counties. There's a lot of agriculture around there, sugarcane
Speaker 5: things like that, but it's really not a road that
Speaker 5: you pull off of and stop for shopping or anything.
Speaker 5: It's a really isolated road. So to be found out
Speaker 5: there in that canal was definitely unusual.
Speaker 2: You mentioned now Nancy Lee Fosts was nineteen years old,
Speaker 2: and this is June fourteenth, and very much differently different
Speaker 2: than Arieta Marie Tinker. This person was walking home. How
Speaker 2: was she found and what were some of the differences,
Speaker 2: especially from areata in terms of condition.
Speaker 5: Sure, Nancy was nineteen years old and she sort of
Speaker 5: had a troubled relationship with her boyfriend and her sister.
Speaker 5: And June fourteenth, nineteen seventy five, she disappeared while walking
Speaker 5: at night in Fort Lauderdale, and she was found a
Speaker 5: few days later, again in the canal near US twenty seven,
Speaker 5: near the Sawgrass Recreational Area, which is sort of a
Speaker 5: public park. I have air boat rides, things like that,
Speaker 5: but again a very remote area, and Nancy had been
Speaker 5: hit on the head and choked. So there's a difference
Speaker 5: between her murder and Areata Tinkers, where Miss Tinker simply
Speaker 5: was drowned out in that remote canal, But in this
Speaker 5: case there was definitely signed to foul play with being
Speaker 5: hit on the head and choked.
Speaker 2: You right, that the public is becoming aware of around
Speaker 2: this time. And then you introduced to Barbara Schreiber fourteen
Speaker 2: and Belinda's Zetta Rover fourteen, who were friends. Tell us
Speaker 2: what happens on June eighteenth, faithful Night.
Speaker 5: Well, yes, this was the case that really indicated that
Speaker 5: there was something going on because these two girls, Barbara
Speaker 5: Shreiber and Darlene zetter Hour, were fourteen year old friends
Speaker 5: in the Fort Lauderdale area, and on June eighteenth, nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy five, they told their parents that they were going
Speaker 5: to spend the night at each other's houses, and it
Speaker 5: was sort of a lie. They wanted to get out
Speaker 5: and walk around and have some fun, and they disappeared,
Speaker 5: and it was unclear as to whether they were trying
Speaker 5: to hitch hike, but they were found the following day
Speaker 5: again at a canal along US twenty seven, both shot
Speaker 5: to death and really no motive. Police interviewed all kinds
Speaker 5: of individuals, including their friends, and really there was nothing
Speaker 5: to go on except for a clue that was found
Speaker 5: that turned out to be a dead end. So they
Speaker 5: were both shot in June. In June of nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 2: You read about next about Robin Leslie Lash. She's fourteen
Speaker 2: years old and she vanishes on July eighth. Tell us
Speaker 2: what her condition is and is there any connection with
Speaker 2: these other bodies that are like you write, only five
Speaker 2: miles south where Belinda's at Rower and Barbara Streiber and
Speaker 2: Nancy Fox were discovered.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, Nanty Fox, Barbara Schreiber, and Darlene zetter Hour
Speaker 5: were found very close together in the canal near Us
Speaker 5: twenty seven, So it sort of seemed that there was
Speaker 5: a spot that someone or some people were deciding to
Speaker 5: dispose of bodies in this very remote area. But Robin,
Speaker 5: like miss zetter Hour and miss Shreiver, was only fourteen.
Speaker 5: She was walking on July eighth, nineteen seventy five, and
Speaker 5: she disappeared. She was discovered two days later again in
Speaker 5: the canal near Us twenty seven, and they determined that
Speaker 5: she drowned, and it was unclear as to whether there
Speaker 5: was any foul play. So kind of like the death
Speaker 5: of Area A Tinker, a girl fourteen years old with
Speaker 5: no cars found drowned in a very very remote canal
Speaker 5: in far western Brower County.
Speaker 2: And you write as well that it was suspicious because
Speaker 2: she drowned, but she was an excellent swimmer. Let's get
Speaker 2: to Ronnie Sue Gorlin, a twenty seven year old very
Speaker 2: integral part to this. Well, everyone's important this story, but
Speaker 2: she's especially important this story. July twenty second, she disappeared.
Speaker 2: What was different about her condition of her body? What
Speaker 2: had happened?
Speaker 5: Well, Ronnie was one of the older victims. She was
Speaker 5: twenty seven years old. She was engaged to be married
Speaker 5: to a man in Pennsylvania, and she was back in
Speaker 5: South Florida with her family in Hollandale. And on June
Speaker 5: twenty second, nineteen seventy five, she visited her mother in
Speaker 5: the hospital, and actually she was going to visit her mother,
Speaker 5: she never showed up. They later found her car at
Speaker 5: the one hundred and sixty third Street mall with a
Speaker 5: flat tire and she was gone. They eventually found her
Speaker 5: body nude out in the Canal and Dade County a
Speaker 5: few days later. And the connection with the subsequent murder
Speaker 5: of Alice Wrap, which we'll talked about in a minute,
Speaker 5: really told the police there was something sinister going on.
Speaker 5: There was somebody using this tactic to abduct women.
Speaker 2: Now you write at this time, or pardon me, not
Speaker 2: at this time, but you write about twenty twenty that
Speaker 2: there's a police officer named Charles Mussoline or Mussoline believed
Speaker 2: that Ted Bundy was the best suspect in Ronnie's death.
Speaker 2: Is this because of the bite marks? Yeah.
Speaker 5: The bite marks as well as the mo of approaching
Speaker 5: a woman in a parking lot offering to provide assistance
Speaker 5: definitely told this detective that Bundy needed to be considered
Speaker 5: as a possibility. There were bite marks on Ronnie Gorland.
Speaker 5: She had been bitten, choked and drowned. And those bite
Speaker 5: marks eventually were compared. From what I can tell to
Speaker 5: Christopher Wilder and Ted Bundy, doesn't appear that there is
Speaker 5: anything more in the records that I reviewed as to
Speaker 5: whether there was a match or they couldn't compare them.
Speaker 5: But yes, the bite marks as well as them indicated
Speaker 5: that Ted Bundy was definitely a viable suspect.
Speaker 2: Now, one week after Ronnie Gorlan was dumped in the canal,
Speaker 2: you say he struck again. The killers struck again with
Speaker 2: nearly the same method of killing. And we've talked about
Speaker 2: Elsie Rap twenty one years old. What was the near
Speaker 2: same method or identical method in your eyes and other
Speaker 2: people's minds.
Speaker 5: Yeah, at least Rap was twenty one years old, and
Speaker 5: she was from New York and she really enjoyed South Florida.
Speaker 5: So she was working down here as a secretary. And
Speaker 5: on July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, eight days after Ronnie
Speaker 5: Gorland was murdered, at Least left her home and never
Speaker 5: came back, and police eventually found her car again at
Speaker 5: the one hundred and sixty third Street Mall with a
Speaker 5: flat tire. She was found the following day and basically
Speaker 5: the same canal as Ronnie Gorland. She also had been
Speaker 5: hit on the head and drowned, and there were marks
Speaker 5: on her that indicated this was a sexual assault. So
Speaker 5: the mo of flattening attire and offering assistance or somehow
Speaker 5: getting these women to come with the killer was almost
Speaker 5: identical bodies were placed in nearly the same location. Interestingly,
Speaker 5: they both had E license plates on their car, which
Speaker 5: indicated that they were rentals or leases. But there were
Speaker 5: definitely similarities that that police picked up on, and their
Speaker 5: conclusions to this day were that those two were definitely related,
Speaker 5: as were some others, but these are definitely the strongest
Speaker 5: that are that are related.
Speaker 2: M H and at least had also been sexually mutilated
Speaker 2: as well as well as Ronnie Gorland as well. That
Speaker 2: was one of the characteristics, wasn't it correct?
Speaker 5: Alas Rap heard her genitals, we were stabbed, and and
Speaker 5: there was definitely a you know, conclusion by the Dade
Speaker 5: County Medical Examiner that the bite marks on Ronnie Gorland
Speaker 5: and the mutilation of Elise Rap connected them in terms
Speaker 5: of both being sex crimes, both being a very aggressive attacks,
Speaker 5: very sadistic attacks on these women. So yeah, there were
Speaker 5: there were definitely markers that were similar between both.
Speaker 2: You say too, that the girls looked alike in appearance,
Speaker 2: but for some reason, maybe you can explain this, the
Speaker 2: composites drawings were not released publicly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the composits were never publicly released. They did law
Speaker 5: enforcement did take some of the composites, especially in the
Speaker 5: two flat tire murders, to people at the one hundred
Speaker 5: and sixty third Street Mall. They interviewed them, tried to
Speaker 5: get an idea of who may have been around when
Speaker 5: these when these murders occurred, but really nothing ever, at
Speaker 5: least publicly came of this in terms of descriptions or
Speaker 5: possible vehicles. But there were some composites that were alluded
Speaker 5: to at least, but they were not released publicly.
Speaker 2: Now the police are beginning of their investigation. Miami News
Speaker 2: offers a reward of six thousand dollars. Dozens right in
Speaker 2: describing their attacks being followed by suspicious men and flat
Speaker 2: tires and shopping centers and fall of nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 2: you're write brought more bodies, one particular Linda Ann Hamilton,
Speaker 2: sixteen years old. What were the particulars if there was
Speaker 2: any difference in this crime.
Speaker 5: Well, Linda was found a bit further north in Florida,
Speaker 5: kind of a similar situation where a young girl was
Speaker 5: found murdered and dumped. Eventually, Gerald Stano, who was a
Speaker 5: Florida serial killer at the time who confessed later to
Speaker 5: forty one murders admitted in nineteen eighty one that he
Speaker 5: had killed Linda, but at the time police were looking anywhere,
Speaker 5: thinking that maybe this killer had moved north in Florida.
Speaker 5: But eventually mister Stano did confess and he was executed
Speaker 5: in Florida in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 2: You right by, there was another body in December nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy five. You say that by the end of nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy five, how many young women were connected or were
Speaker 2: murdered in that time span with only one.
Speaker 5: Case salved, with only one case solved, there were at
Speaker 5: least thirteen victims, and we'll go through some more, but
Speaker 5: five were definitely linked, at least by the medical examiner
Speaker 5: as definitely being related. But there were thirteen victims in
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five. In early nineteen seventy six in Dayden,
Speaker 5: Broward County.
Speaker 2: Right, and for police, they did realize that there was
Speaker 2: the same person that killed Ronnie Gordon and at least
Speaker 2: rap is that correct.
Speaker 5: That's correct. They definitely linked those two cases. And as
Speaker 5: the police were trying to put together put together the puzzle,
Speaker 5: they were looking at these other murders. All of them
Speaker 5: shared similar characteristics in terms of the victims, the locations
Speaker 5: that the bodies were found. These girls basically just disappeared.
Speaker 5: There was no evidence of any kind of altercation or abduction.
Speaker 5: These were not home invasions or anything of that sort.
Speaker 5: It really seemed that, at least from my review of
Speaker 5: the case, this was somebody who was decent looking, a
Speaker 5: good talker, could get these women to become comfortable and
Speaker 5: come with him and before he murdered them. So they
Speaker 5: were definitely connecting the Gorelin and rap cases and putting
Speaker 5: these other killings that occurred very near in time all
Speaker 5: together as a series of murders.
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Speaker 2: we were still in nineteen seventy five. You right that
Speaker 2: there was two full time detectives working the case, and
Speaker 2: you had Broward County and Dade County police and law enforcement,
Speaker 2: and disabling a victim's car was a definite mo among
Speaker 2: certain officers and law enforcement. And there was enough simil
Speaker 2: milarities you write to possibly linked five date in Broward
Speaker 2: County cases, perhaps even twelve. So how do police proceed
Speaker 2: and what happens in their investigation with the body count.
Speaker 5: Well, police, really, to quote one of them, worked their
Speaker 5: butts off. There were tons of interviews. They basically contacted
Speaker 5: every registered sex offender, attempted to go through the case
Speaker 5: files and find some similarities and find some evidence that
Speaker 5: would lead them to a possible suspect or a person
Speaker 5: of interest. But really there was not a lot in
Speaker 5: terms of progress in these cases in nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy six, So it was a lot of
Speaker 5: leg work. It was a lot of interviews, a lot
Speaker 5: of file review meetings, sort of hitting the ground and
Speaker 5: trying to find whether there were any witnesses to any
Speaker 5: of these abductions. There was a lot of work done,
Speaker 5: but there was not a lot of results for it.
Speaker 2: You talk about Judith Austerling, the twenty two year old
Speaker 2: that was killed and thrown in the canal, A person
Speaker 2: confessed to the crime. Who was that? Tell us that
Speaker 2: incredible story?
Speaker 5: Well, these as these canal murders were piling up. The
Speaker 5: first murder that really kind of set everything off was
Speaker 5: Judith Oasterling in January of nineteen seventy five. And by
Speaker 5: the end of nineteen seventy five, police, to their great credit,
Speaker 5: had been working these cases, you know, not putting them
Speaker 5: on the shelf, putting a lot of effort into solving them.
Speaker 5: They went back to Judith's boss, to a place of
Speaker 5: employment at the Tiger Health Spa in Dade County, and
Speaker 5: under interrogation they eventually got a confession from Sue Jane Walter.
Speaker 5: She confessed that she and her boyfriend had had killed
Speaker 5: Judith and dumped her body in the canal next to
Speaker 5: US twenty seven as a result of a sexual assault
Speaker 5: that Judith attempted to resist.
Speaker 2: Yes, so now you have victims. Marlene Anna Belly twenty
Speaker 2: six years old. She was last seeing October twenty six
Speaker 2: a twenty second Pardon me and reported missing October twenty fifth.
Speaker 2: What is the state of her Before we talk about
Speaker 2: Mary Coppola, Michelle Winters, and Anna Lie Marada Mims, what
Speaker 2: are some of the characteristics of their killings.
Speaker 5: Well, Marlene was twenty six years old and she was
Speaker 5: married but estranged from her husband, and she had purchased
Speaker 5: a vacation package, so she came down from up north
Speaker 5: to have a short vacation in Fort Lauderdale, and she
Speaker 5: was missing from her hotel for several days until she
Speaker 5: was found on October twenty second, nineteen seventy five, out
Speaker 5: in the field in western Broward County. She had been
Speaker 5: strangled with rope, and police suspected that she might have
Speaker 5: been abducted somewhere either on the beach or near the
Speaker 5: beach when she was out there. So again they found
Speaker 5: the body. They that she was strangled, but there really
Speaker 5: were no leads in that case either.
Speaker 2: So you talk about Mary Coppola and Michelle Winters, what
Speaker 2: was their fate and if there was any difference in
Speaker 2: some of the conditions where they were found or the
Speaker 2: conditions of which they were killed.
Speaker 5: Well, Mary was only fifteen years old. Mary Coppola, she
Speaker 5: was going to a teen counseling center. She had run
Speaker 5: away from home previously. Again nothing really too out of
Speaker 5: the ordinary in terms of her lifestyle, and she had
Speaker 5: a family at home. And on September second, nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 5: she disappeared on her way to that counseling center and
Speaker 5: she was not found until New Year's Day of nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy six. She was near a canal, but the location
Speaker 5: was in Homestead, which is the far south of Bad County,
Speaker 5: so not in the same location as the other victims,
Speaker 5: but again fitting the age profile in the method of
Speaker 5: just simply disappearing while walking somewhere leads to the conclusion
Speaker 5: that she may have been talked into intogoing with someone.
Speaker 2: You read about Michelle Winters seventeen. She was last seen
Speaker 2: December thirtieth, and her body was found January tenth, floating
Speaker 2: again in the Snake Creek Canal, strangled with her per
Speaker 2: strap around her neck, also a scarf around her neck.
Speaker 2: Many of these women are in the water clothed, but
Speaker 2: also there was something that it speaks to trophy keeping
Speaker 2: tell us about the jewelry of something's missing. Something remains.
Speaker 5: Yes, in the Flat Tire murders of Ronnie Gorlin and
Speaker 5: the lease wrap. Ronnie was missing a sandal. Some other
Speaker 5: victims were missing ear rings that were found with one
Speaker 5: ear ring and the other one was missing, and small,
Speaker 5: small little items from the victims were unaccounted for. In
Speaker 5: Michelle's case, there was a ring that she always had
Speaker 5: that was taken and it sort of leads to the
Speaker 5: conclusion that these were these were definitely taken by whoever
Speaker 5: killed them as potential trophies or to remind them of
Speaker 5: what they did. So Michelle had some had a missing
Speaker 5: ring she had gotten from her father. She never never
Speaker 5: took it off, and it was missing. So yeah, there's
Speaker 5: definitely evidence of somebody taking items from the victims when
Speaker 5: you leave them.
Speaker 2: M And it seems that with many of these victims,
Speaker 2: there are differences in this and some of the people
Speaker 2: that were able to describe this perpetrator. You cite cases
Speaker 2: along in this investigation where a black man is involved,
Speaker 2: you know, so there is different descriptions of perpetrators and
Speaker 2: so many cases again involving the canal. You also have
Speaker 2: cases where disabling vehicles in different ways. So it seems
Speaker 2: incredible to me. And as you go along in the book,
Speaker 2: then you start talking about possible suspects in this which
Speaker 2: include the very famous Tad Bundy, but also people like
Speaker 2: Stano and Christopher Wilder and other infamous serial killers that
Speaker 2: certainly possibly could have operated at the same time in
Speaker 2: the same area. So what are some of the things
Speaker 2: that if police are faced at again you talk about
Speaker 2: that after seventy six, that basically this thing went cold,
Speaker 2: shouldn't it right?
Speaker 5: There was a lot of effort put into these cases
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five, and that dropped down in nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy six. The effort that was able to be put
Speaker 5: into these cases, and I think when you look back
Speaker 5: at the crime explosion in South Florida in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 5: it was simply overwhelming. So there was only so much,
Speaker 5: so many resources that could be put towards these cases,
Speaker 5: and they went from hot to warm, to cooling off
Speaker 5: and then eventually cold as they are today. So police
Speaker 5: were not able to devote endless time and resources as
Speaker 5: there were new cases rolling in constantly. So by the
Speaker 5: end of nineteen seventy six, these cases sort of remained
Speaker 5: a curiosity. What happened? Why did all of this happen?
Speaker 5: In nineteen seventy five, and they were no closer to
Speaker 5: getting their suspect than they were at the beginning, with
Speaker 5: the exception of Judethos Stilling's case.
Speaker 2: Now, as time went on, there were suspects in this
Speaker 2: case in new chronicle, all of the viable suspects that
Speaker 2: police considered. But tell us about the case of the
Speaker 2: Kirky case as you call it. In nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 2: sal Leon, a cop, had gone to the scene of
Speaker 2: a woman named Kirky's mutilated body in the canal and
Speaker 2: took photos. Tell us about this incredible suspect and this
Speaker 2: case of this young woman thrown in the canal.
Speaker 5: Yes, Judith Cursey was murdered in nineteen seventy seven, excuse me,
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy eight, and she was found also in the
Speaker 5: canal near Us twenty seven. She was a bit older,
Speaker 5: she was thirty two, but there were signs that she
Speaker 5: was sexually mutilated and definitely a sex crime. And in
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty five a former police officer named sal Lyon
Speaker 5: was showing photographs of miss Cursey's body to various women.
Speaker 5: It was got him in trouble. But it turns out
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy eight he went to the scene of
Speaker 5: miss Cursey's the recovery of her body and had some photographs.
Speaker 5: So it was a very bizarre incident as to why
Speaker 5: he would be displaying these these photographs. Nothing ever came
Speaker 5: of it. He was never charged with anything, you know,
Speaker 5: related to any homicides, but it was just a very
Speaker 5: bizarre incident. One of several in terms of suspects in
Speaker 5: this case, because the police would get a sort of
Speaker 5: a will of somebody being involved, but it never never
Speaker 5: turned into anything concrete.
Speaker 2: Like many people, and we talked about the East Area rapists,
Speaker 2: Golden State Killer case that advances in DNA near the
Speaker 2: turn of the century interested police enough to say that
Speaker 2: possibly some of these cases could be opened up again
Speaker 2: with the latest DNA technology. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 2: about that hope and what DNA may find in this
Speaker 2: particular case.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the Golden State Killer case when it was
Speaker 5: when D'Angelo was arrested in twenty eighteen, really shocked me
Speaker 5: that something that old could be solved. And in these cases,
Speaker 5: based upon reviewing the medical examiner's reports, it appears that
Speaker 5: there could be a biological evidence that was taken, whether
Speaker 5: it's been preserved nerve properly or what the condition of it.
Speaker 5: I still don't know at this point, but there is
Speaker 5: definitely an indication that these crimes were treated as sex
Speaker 5: crimes and they went through the standard sex crime evidence
Speaker 5: gathering techniques in the nineteen seventies. So assuming that those
Speaker 5: samples are still preserved, I would think and hope that
Speaker 5: something can be done with DNA, perhaps similar to what
Speaker 5: eventually caught Joseph DiAngelo.
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Speaker 2: Besides the incredible amount of victims and the differences between
Speaker 2: the victims and the different areas where these victims were attacked.
Speaker 2: In some cases, he also had suspicion that this killer
Speaker 2: traveled somewhere else and committed crimes in other areas, and
Speaker 2: those there are crimes that share similarities to the Flat
Speaker 2: Tyre murders and the Canal murders in that you look
Speaker 2: at and we mentioned earlier about the infamous Ted Bundy
Speaker 2: being considered in a couple of these murders or many
Speaker 2: of these murders, but also some other infamous serial killers
Speaker 2: were considered, including Gerard Schaeffer and Steno Christopher Wilder. Tell
Speaker 2: us about some of these people and why they were
Speaker 2: considered and in what way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Christopher Wilder and Ted Bundy were the two two
Speaker 5: names that came up in the Medical Examiner's notes in
Speaker 5: the Flat Tire cases. Christopher Wilder was a serial killer
Speaker 5: who began his crime spree in nineteen eighty four, which
Speaker 5: ended with his suicide. But he killed a number of
Speaker 5: girls across the country. And he was similar to Bundy
Speaker 5: in that he would be very presentable and would present
Speaker 5: himself as a talent agent or a modeling agent and
Speaker 5: was able to talk women into coming with him, and
Speaker 5: he worked and lived in Broward County in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 5: During that time, there were rape accusations. There was a
Speaker 5: kidnapping case that was brought against him, kidnapping a sixteen
Speaker 5: year old and a seventeen year old. So at least
Speaker 5: by nineteen eighty Wilder was moving towards more serious crimes.
Speaker 5: So he was there in the nineteen seventies and definitely
Speaker 5: deserves attention, and they did give him attention. From what
Speaker 5: I've seen in the reports.
Speaker 2: What about Ted Bundy. You talk about an officer that
Speaker 2: was asking for specifics from Ted Bundy, and Ted Bundy
Speaker 2: then said to them, said to this person, if I
Speaker 2: get convicted of the Leech case, Leech murder, I will
Speaker 2: tell you what happened from that agreement, what was gained,
Speaker 2: if anything from that.
Speaker 5: Well, Ted Bundy is a very interesting suspect. A lot
Speaker 5: of people don't know that he had been in Miami
Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty eight when he was twenty two years old,
Speaker 5: as a delegate for Nelson Rockefeller's nomination of Republican nominations.
Speaker 5: So he had been to Miami in the nineteen sixties
Speaker 5: when he was captured and tried in Miami. In nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy nine, a detective who investigated the flat tire murders
Speaker 5: went to go speak with with Bundy at his jail
Speaker 5: cell in Day County, and based on the detective's recollection
Speaker 5: of the event, it seemed like Bundy had some understanding
Speaker 5: and it struck a nerve with him regarding the flat
Speaker 5: tire murders, and he said, yes, I'll speak with you
Speaker 5: about that if I'm convicted. But nothing ever came of
Speaker 5: it afterwards. And we all know that that Bundy, especially
Speaker 5: during his time in prison, like to play games with police.
Speaker 5: So whether there was any veracity behind that statement, we'll
Speaker 5: probably never know, but there was definitely interest in Bundy
Speaker 5: in the flat tire murders. Also because of the bite
Speaker 5: marks that were found on Ronnie Gorlin.
Speaker 2: There were more than the one police officer though that
Speaker 2: believed that Bundy was responsible. Just other than the bite mark,
Speaker 2: was there any other reason why?
Speaker 5: Well, The two detectives, who are still still alive, both
Speaker 5: to this day believe that that Ted Bundy was fit
Speaker 5: the profile to a t. They both believe that the
Speaker 5: same motors apparanda that Bundy used in in his Western
Speaker 5: United States murders was almost identical to what happened to
Speaker 5: Elise rap and Ronnie Gorland when their cars were disabled.
Speaker 5: Being able to talk a woman into coming with them
Speaker 5: definitely fit Bundy's profile. And from the medical examiner reports,
Speaker 5: they did look at Bundy based upon those bite marks. Now,
Speaker 5: whether that that indicated that he was involved or not,
Speaker 5: he always denied to the end that there was there
Speaker 5: was nothing in Miami that he was guilty of. So,
Speaker 5: but these detectives believed to this day that it was
Speaker 5: likely him.
Speaker 2: You include and we didn't talk about this, but in
Speaker 2: the beginning of the book you talk about the gold
Speaker 2: socks strike and the Miami strangler. Why before we talked
Speaker 2: about the Canal murders and the flat tire murders. Did
Speaker 2: you include these crimes in this book? Sure?
Speaker 5: Well, it really set the scene as far as the
Speaker 5: crime explosion in South Florida in the nineteen seventies, before
Speaker 5: the Canal murders and the Flat tire murders, there was
Speaker 5: a series of six stranglings, all of which involved a
Speaker 5: sock being strangled, being tied around a woman's neck. So
Speaker 5: there were a number of victims, and that occurred in
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy three. Proceeding that was an incident known as
Speaker 5: the Miami Strangler. From nineteen sixty four to nineteen seventy
Speaker 5: they were about ten victims in those cases. They all
Speaker 5: were identified as being similar and being connected, but never conclusively.
Speaker 5: And I think that's a limitation based on the forensic
Speaker 5: evidence gathering tools that were available in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 5: But definitely patterns of murders over a distinct period of
Speaker 5: time were identified even before the flat tire and canal
Speaker 5: murders occurred.
Speaker 2: You write about the flat tire murders, and you include,
Speaker 2: interestingly in the book this add tension and that there
Speaker 2: are many other criminals that are that are caught, that
Speaker 2: are arrested, that are suspected, that are that get of
Speaker 2: that escape. But you illustrate that with some of these
Speaker 2: perpetrators showing, say a police badge. So when you talk
Speaker 2: about the flat tire murders and the disablement of these vehicles,
Speaker 2: it comes to mind Hillside strangler and and so that
Speaker 2: sort of mo is do you think that the police
Speaker 2: ruse might have been part of these abductions can.
Speaker 5: Be definitely, definitely, I think that's a possibility. I think
Speaker 5: a good illustration is Ted Bundy's arrest in nineteen seventy
Speaker 5: five in Utah when he attempted to abduct and murder
Speaker 5: Carol Durranch. What he did was walked up to her
Speaker 5: and told her her car had been broken into and
Speaker 5: she needed to come with him because he's an undercover
Speaker 5: cop and we're going to fill out a report. She
Speaker 5: eventually asked him when she got a little suspicious, do
Speaker 5: you have any identification? And he flashed a badge at her,
Speaker 5: and of course it was a fake badge, and she
Speaker 5: continued to go with him. So I think in these
Speaker 5: cases in South Florida, there's definitely the possibility that these
Speaker 5: young girls that were, you know, some of them fourteen
Speaker 5: years old, fifteen seventeen, would respond to somebody in a
Speaker 5: position of authority or pretending to be in a position
Speaker 5: of authority to get them to go with them.
Speaker 2: You write about the flat tire murders and the canal murders,
Speaker 2: you say that they may be entirely unrelated or or
Speaker 2: not tell us about this conundrum.
Speaker 5: Yes, and that's really the puzzle of this of this
Speaker 5: case is which which victims are connected and how the
Speaker 5: Day County Medical Examiner believe based on the on the
Speaker 5: medical evidence that five of them were connected. I think
Speaker 5: the two strongest that were connected were Elise rap and
Speaker 5: Ronnie Gorland. Those were nearly identical crimes. Both cars at
Speaker 5: the one hundred and sixty third Street mall flat tires
Speaker 5: and found eight days apart. So regardless of how many
Speaker 5: cases are connected and how strong, I definitely believe that
Speaker 5: there was somebody in South Florida at this time with
Speaker 5: the intent of abducting and murdering women.
Speaker 2: You know, when I look at all the similarities between
Speaker 2: some of these serial killers and you want to just
Speaker 2: chalk it up to coincidence. But is there a possibility
Speaker 2: that they read the news like everyone else and there
Speaker 2: are even more avid fans of true crime reporting. Would
Speaker 2: they be influenced, would they take clues, would they want
Speaker 2: to be included? Would they try to throw the scent
Speaker 2: off themselves by having similarities to these known killers that
Speaker 2: are being hunted? Is there any of that in this.
Speaker 5: I think that that I think you put it very
Speaker 5: well and it reminds me of of Joseph DiAngelo who
Speaker 5: was a police officer, and he knew what jurisdictions to
Speaker 5: go in, He knew the procedures for criminal investigations, and
Speaker 5: he used that to his advantage to do what he
Speaker 5: did and invade capture. I think something similar may have
Speaker 5: occurred in these cases, where like you said, some he
Speaker 5: was very aware of what clues were being gathered, who
Speaker 5: was being interviewed. And I think also another factor is
Speaker 5: perhaps there was a knowledge that putting bodies in water
Speaker 5: is a good way to get rid of of some
Speaker 5: forensic evidence.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that.
Speaker 5: There was definitely somebody that was very sophisticated. It wasn't
Speaker 5: it wasn't a psychopath, It wasn't a deranged person, which
Speaker 5: some of the media at the time kind of tried
Speaker 5: to play this up as it was really a cold
Speaker 5: calculating person like a like a Bundy or you know
Speaker 5: some of these other other serial killers that that plan
Speaker 5: things out and are very careful about what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Mm hm. You talk about the DNA technology possibilities, do
Speaker 2: you know the status of that that there isn't enough
Speaker 2: as you write, enough biological enough biological evidence to be
Speaker 2: able to conduct DNA test And do you know the
Speaker 2: status of that testing.
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question, and I've dug plenty in
Speaker 5: terms of trying to get the medical or the evidence
Speaker 5: from the police. And when I was doing this, it
Speaker 5: was during the COVID epidemic and things really flowed down
Speaker 5: quite dramatically, so there was a limit on what was available.
Speaker 5: But I definitely think that some of these some of
Speaker 5: these cases have evidence that can still be tested, and
Speaker 5: I think that's reflected also in some of the cases
Speaker 5: like James Rose, who was recently confessed to a nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy five murder in twenty eighteen based upon DNA. So
Speaker 5: they're doing it. Law enforcement is looking at this DNA
Speaker 5: route as a way to solve these cases.
Speaker 2: You say that even if DNA technology cannot capture this killer,
Speaker 2: and of course we get back to the purpose of
Speaker 2: your book and very fascinating in depth analysis, what else
Speaker 2: can happen in your mind? You talk about that maybe
Speaker 2: something's in someone's attic that they might not have considered before.
Speaker 2: Tell us what might happen in your mind from this.
Speaker 5: What might happen is is somebody who knows something may
Speaker 5: be triggered and remember an event, a person, an item,
Speaker 5: that may be significant that maybe they forgot about or discarded,
Speaker 5: you know, in years past, and they may come forward
Speaker 5: even if there is no DNA evidence. To at least
Speaker 5: have these cases in the public discourse and having people
Speaker 5: look at them, I think is important, similar to what
Speaker 5: happened with Joseph di'angelo, where there were people that were
Speaker 5: pressing this case and saying that, you know, we're not
Speaker 5: giving up on this, and we'll do what we can,
Speaker 5: whether we're a sort of armchair detectives or just the
Speaker 5: general public, to solve these cases. They're not forgotten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very interesting in real time to be
Speaker 2: able to interview detectives that were involved in the East
Speaker 2: Area rapist case right from the very beginning, interview them
Speaker 2: again when it looked like something was happening with the
Speaker 2: FBI in terms of actually solving this case, which was
Speaker 2: seemed incredible. It seemed almost unbelievable. And then speaking to
Speaker 2: those people involved, those detectives after he was captured, it
Speaker 2: was just amazing, really that breakthrough to be able to
Speaker 2: do something so incredibly it seemed almost unbelievable. I think
Speaker 2: to people in the true crime genre, I think, for sure,
Speaker 2: certainly and law enforcement.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that day in twenty eighteen when he was arrested,
Speaker 5: my jaw hit the floor and I was stunned, and
Speaker 5: I scrambled to find what I could online and just
Speaker 5: just it blew me away because it was so long ago,
Speaker 5: forty plus years and the methods that they used to
Speaker 5: track him down, we're we're just incredibly fascinating. And I
Speaker 5: think it goes to show that law enforcement is working
Speaker 5: behind the scenes and a lot of what we don't know.
Speaker 5: You know, there may be things that are going on
Speaker 5: that we're not aware of, but I think keeping the
Speaker 5: public eye on things is always a good idea.
Speaker 2: And I think you're right too that the case itself
Speaker 2: did so much for law enforcement morale and the FBI's
Speaker 2: reputation and just gave so much hope to crime solving
Speaker 2: and the promise of DNA, which has been remarkable, really
Speaker 2: comparative of all all the other forensics procedures available. So
Speaker 2: I think there are so many dedicated people that can't
Speaker 2: let these cases go, very much like yourself, where you've
Speaker 2: you've invested in this investigation and you would like to
Speaker 2: see some dramatic results, and so I hope the very
Speaker 2: best for you. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 2: Michael for coming on and talking about the Flat Tire Murders,
Speaker 2: Unsolved Crimes of a South Florida serial killer. For people
Speaker 2: that might want to take a look, is there an
Speaker 2: Amazon page? Facebook page? Tell us how they might take
Speaker 2: a look at this book? More sure, the book.
Speaker 5: Is available on Amazon. There's also an ebook version. I'm
Speaker 5: on Twitter at at Flat Murders. I have read it
Speaker 5: and Facebook, so if people want to send me comments,
Speaker 5: I'm certainly available there, and you know, I look forward
Speaker 5: to hearing from people, and I hope this book, you know,
Speaker 5: is something that brings these cases to the public light.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's an admirable endeavor. Thank you so much, Michael P. Burns.
Speaker 2: The Flat Tire Murders, Unsolved Crimes of the South Florida
Speaker 2: I'm the real killer. It's been fascinating. Thank you so much, Michael.
Speaker 2: You have a great evening.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you Dan, you too.
Speaker 1: M