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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. David Parrish was in disbelief when he learned
Speaker 6: that nineteen year old John Bowie's body had been found
Speaker 6: hanged from a backstop at the local high school's baseball
Speaker 6: field and the death declared suicide. David had known John
Speaker 6: and his twin brother since they were boys. He had
Speaker 6: coached them on the baseball field and welcomed them into
Speaker 6: his own home for sleepovers with his sons. However, when
Speaker 6: David learned how John's body was found, he felt compelled
Speaker 6: to find the facts behind this incomprehensible tragedy. Soon, David
Speaker 6: would learn of a brutal incident at a local motel
Speaker 6: where John and his brother had been severely beaten by
Speaker 6: police officers. The charges filed against those officers and the
Speaker 6: months of harassment and intimidation John and his brother endured.
Speaker 6: Few in the utopian community of Columbia, Maryland believed John
Speaker 6: would commit such a final act. Like many others, David
Speaker 6: wondered how a faithful knight of teens boing off steam
Speaker 6: could lead to such a tragic end. As law enforcement
Speaker 6: failed to find answers and seemed intent on preventing the
Speaker 6: truth from surfacing, David uncovered a system of cover ups
Speaker 6: that could only lead to one conclusion. John's death was
Speaker 6: an active murder. The book they were featuring this evening
Speaker 6: is Losing John, A team's tragic death, a police cover up,
Speaker 6: a communities fight for justice, with my special guest author
Speaker 6: David Parrish. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 6: much for agreeing to this interview David Parrish.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Dan for giving me this opportunity to talk
Speaker 4: about the book.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. As I mentioned, this is one
Speaker 6: of the more exciting, infuriating, and heart wrenching stories I've
Speaker 6: ever read, and thank you so much for sharing it
Speaker 6: with an audience today. Let's talk about your journey, you
Speaker 6: and your family's journey to Columbia, Maryland and how you
Speaker 6: were first acquainted with Mickey John and Sandra Buie.
Speaker 4: Okay. I grew up in a blue collar family in
Speaker 4: rural North Carolina, attended University of North Carolina as a
Speaker 4: day student, took a job worked in Durham for a while.
Speaker 4: The job took me to Mississippi, lived there a while,
Speaker 4: and then we decided, my wife and I, we were
Speaker 4: too far from her family in Ohio and my family
Speaker 4: in North Carolina. So I took a job in Washington,
Speaker 4: d c. And we were particularly drawn to the community
Speaker 4: of Columbia, Maryland because it was advertised at the time
Speaker 4: in the newspapers as New America, where people of all races,
Speaker 4: ethnicity's religions lived on the same streets, went to the
Speaker 4: same schools, worshiped in the same buildings. There was always
Speaker 4: going to be a twenty percent open space with animals
Speaker 4: and bike paths and lakes and such. And we decided
Speaker 4: that's where we wanted to raise our children. And I
Speaker 4: had two sons. As my sons got into school, I
Speaker 4: began coaching recor league baseball as a parent coach, and
Speaker 4: that was actually how I met the boys. They were
Speaker 4: on my teams from the time they were eleven years
Speaker 4: old until they graduated from high school. They were exceptional
Speaker 4: athletes and they were both also playing varsity ball, baseball, football.
Speaker 4: They were the kind of kids that other kids wanted
Speaker 4: to be liked. They just they had a certain free
Speaker 4: will about them. And when they graduated from high school,
Speaker 4: they got scholarships to play baseball and Mickey Booie got
Speaker 4: a scholarship to play football in North Dakota State. They
Speaker 4: went to North Dakota and they just decided it was
Speaker 4: too cold for them. They didn't like it, and so
Speaker 4: they came home and they began attending the local community
Speaker 4: college and they were in their second year of college
Speaker 4: when they and a group of friends decided to rent
Speaker 4: a room at a motel and catch up your overwinter
Speaker 4: break and find out about, you know, how each other's
Speaker 4: lives were going. They had some beer, they made too
Speaker 4: much noise, and the police showed up, and that was
Speaker 4: kind of when the story began.
Speaker 6: Now you had heard from a friend of the Buoys
Speaker 6: that they had been we were back in Columbia, as
Speaker 6: you had mentioned, You thought that they had got the
Speaker 6: scholarships in North Dakota, and you were surprised to hear
Speaker 6: that they were back in Columbia. So, being a friend
Speaker 6: of the family, you called the house and you talked
Speaker 6: to John, and that's when you heard about the story,
Speaker 6: because at first you said, everything okay, Why did you
Speaker 6: leave North Dakota said hey, it was too cold? You said, hey,
Speaker 6: the problem with the course and he said, no, no,
Speaker 6: it was just too cold. Everything else okay, And he said,
Speaker 6: well almost, And then he told you of the story
Speaker 6: of January fifth, nineteen ninety at the Red Roof in
Speaker 6: about a mile out of Columbia, Maryland hotel and fourteen
Speaker 6: teens originally fifteen teens. So tell us who was there
Speaker 6: besides the twins Mickey and John, And just tell us
Speaker 6: how innocent this little get together was. What was the
Speaker 6: reason for the get together, And just tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about what happened. Once there was a noise complaint.
Speaker 4: Well, people were going to college in a lot of
Speaker 4: different places and over went a break. It was an
Speaker 4: opportunity to get together and catch up on each other's lives.
Speaker 4: They'd been friends for you know, forever, and so they
Speaker 4: thought it would be a good idea to get together
Speaker 4: at a hotel. Some of them drank beer. They wanted
Speaker 4: a place where they could have a beer not be
Speaker 4: hassled by their parents or the police. They were playing
Speaker 4: in the state tutill about midnight or one o'clock, and
Speaker 4: naturally they didn't think through that they would be bothering
Speaker 4: other people. And the desk clerk called in the noise complaint,
Speaker 4: and first two police officers showed up, and then a
Speaker 4: swarm of police officers showed up and John basically they explained.
Speaker 4: The police officers explained that since some of the kids
Speaker 4: didn't have IDs, that they were going to have to
Speaker 4: spend the weekend in jail. Well, John spoke up and said, yeah, right,
Speaker 4: you can't do that just because we don't have IDs,
Speaker 4: and it seemed to make the officers angry. He said,
Speaker 4: let's go outside. One of them so he got up
Speaker 4: to go out, but one of the other kids snickered,
Speaker 4: Chun Coe Korean kid, and when he snickered, the other
Speaker 4: officer said sorry talking to him. So the first officer
Speaker 4: pushed John back down on the radiator kind of hard,
Speaker 4: pushed him back up against the wall, and John lifted
Speaker 4: his hands up and kind of backed off. They talked
Speaker 4: to Chung and then the officer picked up grabbed John
Speaker 4: by the sleeve and said, you know, now, let's go outside.
Speaker 4: But when he did, he pulled to so hard that
Speaker 4: John stumbled, and Micky got up and put his hand
Speaker 4: on the officer's arm and said, John, no, don't go
Speaker 4: outside with him. The officer said, you know, get your
Speaker 4: hand off f an arm. Don't you know you can't
Speaker 4: touch a police officer. So Micky took his hand off
Speaker 4: and he said, yeah, but where are you taking him
Speaker 4: outside where you can hit him and nobody can see.
Speaker 4: And this kind of surprised the office. He said, nobody's
Speaker 4: gonna get hit, and then everything just fell apart. The
Speaker 4: other officer was a gigantic guy, like six foot seven,
Speaker 4: officer Victor Raemer, and he just from behind Mickey. He
Speaker 4: put his knight stick around his throat, started choking and
Speaker 4: picked him up off the ground. But Mike was a
Speaker 4: pretty fiery guy. He was strong. He didn't hit the officer,
Speaker 4: but he had to get some air and he just
Speaker 4: start it's struggling. They fell through the door out on
Speaker 4: the sidewalk, and John and Mickey never threw a blow.
Speaker 4: They're just shouting, what are you guys doing? Are you nuts?
Speaker 4: Are you crazy? And they just kept getting hit with
Speaker 4: the billy club with fists. Finally, the large police officer
Speaker 4: said to Mickey, you're under arrest, and Mickey just went lamp.
Speaker 4: He put his hands behind his back, his face down
Speaker 4: on the sidewalk, and he basically said, you know, tough guys,
Speaker 4: you know, beating on kids when they can't do anything
Speaker 4: about it. And every time he'd say something, he'd get
Speaker 4: hit again. Well, he's lying face down on the sidewalk,
Speaker 4: his hands cuffed behind him, he's getting hit. Other police
Speaker 4: officers are showing up, State police are showing up, and
Speaker 4: things were kind of calming down, but he shouted out again,
Speaker 4: you know guys, you know, just picking on kids. And
Speaker 4: so the big officer Ramer puts his boot on his
Speaker 4: face and kind of grounded into the sidewalk like he
Speaker 4: was grinding out a cigarette. Yeah, it just it was
Speaker 4: just unbelievable.
Speaker 6: Meanwhile, what was going on in the hotel room with
Speaker 6: these terrorized kids that had been told by these police officers,
Speaker 6: one being Pete Wright, which john recognizes at some point
Speaker 6: when he's in that room. He'd seen him around, So
Speaker 6: he'd seen that officer before, Victor Ramer and this Ricky Johnson.
Speaker 6: What were they doing in the hotel room with the
Speaker 6: other people. It was Chris, there was some there was
Speaker 6: still some girls, John's girlfriend, Chonkoh, and a guy named Puffy.
Speaker 6: What did the police do in that room at the
Speaker 6: same time that they had Mickey and John outside.
Speaker 4: Well, they're searching around for any evidence they can find
Speaker 4: that would be for anything, and the kids are sitting
Speaker 4: over their hands up in the air. They're throwing a
Speaker 4: lot of the police are throwing a lot of f
Speaker 4: bombs around, intimidating the kids. They're shouting at Chung Ko
Speaker 4: just because he was Korean, and they're calling him names
Speaker 4: like ping pong and chewing chewing and ching ching, just
Speaker 4: kind of out of control things they were. They were
Speaker 4: clearly excited and nervous the police and they're searching around
Speaker 4: and Raimer looks under the mattress and he found a
Speaker 4: pipe that one of the young people had brought. It
Speaker 4: was like a pipe you could have used for smoking marijuana,
Speaker 4: and one of the kids had brought it to sort
Speaker 4: of brag, but there was no marijuana smoke. It just
Speaker 4: he was just showing off. It belonged to somebody he knew.
Speaker 6: Now, the police tell the the questioned one of the
Speaker 6: Jeff Phipp's girlfriend and this is Jeff Phipps is the
Speaker 6: guy that was twenty one and took off, but the
Speaker 6: question his girlfriend and then brought Chong back in and said,
Speaker 6: look at you're under arrest, and she put it on
Speaker 6: him that it was his pipe and he denies it,
Speaker 6: but again he was told he was going to be
Speaker 6: arrest arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia paraphernalia. Now, meanwhile
Speaker 6: with Mick and John, Mickey and John, they're taken to
Speaker 6: the police station and John is talking about getting a
Speaker 6: police call, a phone call, and Raymer, Victor Ramer's talking
Speaker 6: about calling their parents. This conversation John and Mickey, what
Speaker 6: did John say to Victor Raymer and tell us about
Speaker 6: the phone call and Sandra's reaction.
Speaker 4: Well, Sandra had been waiting up most of the night
Speaker 4: because they John and Mickey always called her to let
Speaker 4: her know when they were coming home, and they hadn't called,
Speaker 4: and so she's waiting. They finally get the call. John
Speaker 4: had said, you know, let me call my girlfriend's dad
Speaker 4: because and take me home because my mother get all upset.
Speaker 4: And they said, no, I'm gonna call Raemer said I'll call,
Speaker 4: so he called the home and Sandra answered. Well. By
Speaker 4: then her next door neighbor, Sylvia Phipps, had already told her,
Speaker 4: already called her and told her that John and Mickey
Speaker 4: had been arrested and the police officer was telling her that,
Speaker 4: and she said, well, I know that, and he said, well,
Speaker 4: I just want you to know they're fine. And John
Speaker 4: starts screaming. He says, no, we're not fine. We've been
Speaker 4: beat up. And he said, I guess you can hear
Speaker 4: Mickey in the background, and Sandra listened, but she couldn't
Speaker 4: hear Mickey. And Raemer says, you know he's out of control.
Speaker 4: Get him in the cell. And then he just told
Speaker 4: her there's nothing wrong with your kids. They just need
Speaker 4: a drug treatment program. And he hung up. Before he
Speaker 4: hung up, he said, Sandra asked, you know, tell me
Speaker 4: when to come get them. I'll come get them. He said, no,
Speaker 4: they're big boys, they can come. They can walk home,
Speaker 4: and you know, it had been a several hours walk
Speaker 4: and he hung up. Well, the next day, next morning,
Speaker 4: one of the friends bring them home and they're all
Speaker 4: beat up. I mean their faces. Mickey's almost unrecognizable, John's
Speaker 4: mouth bleeding blood, coming out for his teeth. He's got
Speaker 4: a black eye. Sandra's asking them what happened Sandra and
Speaker 4: their mother, and they're saying, it's like they're angry, And
Speaker 4: it finally comes out that they think that Raymond went
Speaker 4: back and told them that their mother had said they
Speaker 4: could walk home. Well, they sorted that out once he
Speaker 4: realized that he had put that on her instead of
Speaker 4: saying that it was something he had said himself. She
Speaker 4: took photographs and didn't exactly believe them. She was just
Speaker 4: taken completely off guard. She said, you had did you
Speaker 4: have guns? I mean, how can you guys look so
Speaker 4: beat up like that and make you said now, we
Speaker 4: didn't have guns. They just beat a sigma crazy And
Speaker 4: finally the dust settled, and she wasn't completely convinced that
Speaker 4: everything had happened like they said. She just thought it
Speaker 4: was it was just outrageous. But the dust did finally
Speaker 4: settle and she was They were appointed then that she
Speaker 4: was listening to them, and they talked it through.
Speaker 6: Now there's a reverend right now, how does john learn
Speaker 6: about Reverend right and how does reverend Reverend Doctor Wright
Speaker 6: become involved in this case?
Speaker 4: Johnny Mickey wanted to press charges. And there was an
Speaker 4: article in the newspaper about Reverend Wright being the head
Speaker 4: of the NAACP, and a very complimentary art article about
Speaker 4: things he had accomplished in the community, and so John
Speaker 4: contacted him. He sent he took a letter to the
Speaker 4: church that Reverend Wright ran to ask him to help him.
Speaker 4: He went back the next day and the letter was
Speaker 4: still in the door of the church, so he took
Speaker 4: it across the street, put a stamp on the letter,
Speaker 4: put it in the person's mailbox, and they got mailed
Speaker 4: to Reverend Right and Reverend Wright got in touch with him,
Speaker 4: said it didn't matter that John and Mick were white,
Speaker 4: that NAACP was willing to represent anybody or help anybody
Speaker 4: who had been through that kind of thing. And so
Speaker 4: he explained to them how to press charges, and they
Speaker 4: pressed charges against the police. They pressed They made complaints
Speaker 4: at the police department, which was going to lead to
Speaker 4: a internal affairs review, and they pressed charges at the
Speaker 4: courthouse that would lead to criminal charges for assault against
Speaker 4: the officers. And in the meantime, the officers charged him
Speaker 4: with all kinds of things from resisting arrest, I don't know,
Speaker 4: you name it whatever. They could think of. They actually
Speaker 4: charged them with possession of drug paraphernalia. No, they accused
Speaker 4: him of that, but it was chunk covid. They got
Speaker 4: charged with the possession of drug parafernilia just because his
Speaker 4: chunk cald it. He wasn't afraid of him, and they
Speaker 4: didn't like that.
Speaker 6: Right now, he with these charges there. They were filed
Speaker 6: against Pete Wright, Victor Ramer, and Ricky Johnson. And then
Speaker 6: early February, the head of an internal affairs division, Sergeant Graham,
Speaker 6: interviewed John and Mickey and most of the other kids.
Speaker 6: What did John and Mickey think about that interview with
Speaker 6: Sergeant Graham? And also what did Reverend Wright suggest to
Speaker 6: do after that? Who to contact after that?
Speaker 4: And what do they do after the interview? John and
Speaker 4: Mickey weren't satisfied. They said it went okay, but he
Speaker 4: kept trying to make it sound like more it happened
Speaker 4: that they had been more responsible than they had and
Speaker 4: that they had been some sort of ring leaders in
Speaker 4: the group, and they felt like it was being swayed.
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure what you're asking about, Reverend right.
Speaker 6: Well, Reverend Wright suggests that they contact the FBI, and
Speaker 6: because of the agency.
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Speaker 6: Plus investigated claims against police officers, So Sandra went with
Speaker 6: John and Mickey and the February and the FBI interviewed
Speaker 6: each one of them for an hour, right, correct, and
Speaker 6: now whether that go ahead?
Speaker 4: They came back and told them that they didn't see
Speaker 4: enough information to charge officers with anything. And the boys
Speaker 4: were rather disgusted about that. Almost lost it because she
Speaker 4: they just didn't seem to have taken it seriously, and
Speaker 4: she just tried it was trying to keep her cool
Speaker 4: so that she didn't lose any opportunity to have them
Speaker 4: take it seriously. And they asked her another They said
Speaker 4: to Mickey, you know, you've got to learn to treat
Speaker 4: police officers with respect. And Mickey, being Mickey, you know,
Speaker 4: he said, oh, forget it. And Sanders said, a bunch
Speaker 4: of guys give them a lie detector test. And one
Speaker 4: of the FBI agents said, well, people who are habitual
Speaker 4: liars know how to take a light detector test. Well,
Speaker 4: that really ticked Sander off, but she said, you know,
Speaker 4: what do you think the odds are that they are
Speaker 4: fourteen liars in the same motel room. Well, they just
Speaker 4: left and that was the end of that. The FBI
Speaker 4: didn't do anything about it.
Speaker 6: Right now. Things progressed the early spring. Chang Ko as
Speaker 6: has his drug paraphernalia charge that trial, and during that
Speaker 6: he to offset that he went for a drug test
Speaker 6: as you write, and it was come back negative. Dress
Speaker 6: trying to help himself from court. But during that this
Speaker 6: officer Raymer, he claims, called him at home asking about
Speaker 6: those test results. When he told Reverend Right about that,
Speaker 6: Reverend Wright said he thought that was interference and an
Speaker 6: outright illegal act. He also said that Raymer had called
Speaker 6: and said he could arrange a meeting with the state's
Speaker 6: attorney and he met with so tell us about this
Speaker 6: chang Ko and this this trial that he has and
Speaker 6: what happens at that trial remarkable.
Speaker 4: Well, he was Chung was convinced that they were giving
Speaker 4: him a heart because he just was not afraid of them,
Speaker 4: and he went to the trial. He said, what did happened?
Speaker 4: That the officer had called him at home and said
Speaker 4: he could once the officer found out he had a
Speaker 4: negative blood test, said well, he could put him in
Speaker 4: touch with the county prosecutor and maybe they could get
Speaker 4: the charges dropped. And when they were in the trial,
Speaker 4: Chung told this and the judge said, well, the police
Speaker 4: officer wouldn't do that, and he just blew it off.
Speaker 4: And when Chung said that the police officer had stuck
Speaker 4: the night stick in his mouth at the hotel room,
Speaker 4: he said to the other people in the room laughed.
Speaker 4: He said, you know, I just that makes me angry.
Speaker 4: He said, my family didn't come to America to be
Speaker 4: treated like that.
Speaker 6: At the trial, the results of the pipe in terms
Speaker 6: of the testing. Oddly enough, the prosecution is not ready
Speaker 6: to proceed. They said, well they won't have the test back,
Speaker 6: so the case is put on this very I've never
Speaker 6: heard of this. The case was put on a stet docket,
Speaker 6: which sets aside the case and it would be dismissed
Speaker 6: if he stayed out of trouble for a year. So
Speaker 6: I thought, that's incredible. That's the equivalent of being sentenced
Speaker 6: without being convicted exactly.
Speaker 4: It's just a convenient way of getting things off the
Speaker 4: books without making any meaningful decision.
Speaker 6: Now there's another party that happens, and this Chong his
Speaker 6: sister goes out of town. So she says, yeah, you
Speaker 6: can use the apartment. And so he decides to have
Speaker 6: a few friends over, or quite a few friends over.
Speaker 6: What happens about ten pm at this again is low
Speaker 6: key party. What happens who's at the door?
Speaker 4: Well, the young people told me is time is I
Speaker 4: got to know them better. That it was kind of
Speaker 4: common for police to show up at parties and break
Speaker 4: them up. And these two police officers, one of them
Speaker 4: was Victor Raemer and another was someone they didn't know,
Speaker 4: showed up at the door and asked if there was
Speaker 4: a party coming home. Well, at this point, chungs said
Speaker 4: he had had enough of these guys, and he said
Speaker 4: he went out pardon me one moment. He went out
Speaker 4: on the steps and closed the door behind him and said,
Speaker 4: I'll break up the party, but you guys are not
Speaker 4: coming inside. I've had enough of you guys. Well, John
Speaker 4: and Mickey overheard the conversation and they took off running
Speaker 4: through the back door the police officers. One of them
Speaker 4: shouted to the other one, go around back and see
Speaker 4: if you can catch them. To twins. A friend suggested
Speaker 4: to John and Mickey that they break up and then
Speaker 4: nobody would know they were twins. So they made their
Speaker 4: separate ways home, which took quite a while because they
Speaker 4: had come each had their own cars and they left
Speaker 4: their cars at the house, so they made their way home. John,
Speaker 4: in the meantime, went to a local apartment complex and
Speaker 4: one of the officers showed up there, and that really
Speaker 4: spooked him. And when he finally made it home, he
Speaker 4: was telling his mother that he was kind of frightened
Speaker 4: because they showed up at the party. They'd asked for him,
Speaker 4: they had already been harassing him, and then they show
Speaker 4: up in the apartment complex where he went afterwards, and
Speaker 4: he was worried about it. Well, it just so happened
Speaker 4: that when the police officer the FBI had been involved earlier,
Speaker 4: they had gotten some photographs that were just photographs one
Speaker 4: of the girls tech took. There was nothing to be
Speaker 4: seen in them. There were just a bunch of kids
Speaker 4: having funded a motel party. He came back the FB
Speaker 4: my agent came back to returned the photographs, and Sandra
Speaker 4: told him about John and Mickey being followed and about
Speaker 4: the party and how that upset John, and they just
Speaker 4: blew it off, like you know, officer as a They
Speaker 4: said that that area was not in Rumors patrol area.
Speaker 4: She said, what are you talking about? You know police
Speaker 4: cars have wheels, and yeah, she's they blew it off,
Speaker 4: And she said, I just got to ask you, you know,
Speaker 4: so what does it take for you guys to pay attention? Yeah,
Speaker 4: and she became even more inclined to believe what John
Speaker 4: and Mickey had been telling them.
Speaker 6: Yeah. H Now you talk about mid April at Howard
Speaker 6: County District Court, Graham's takes John aside. What's he trying
Speaker 6: to get John to be convinced about? What's he asking
Speaker 6: John to do?
Speaker 4: He's asking John to drop charges against Pete Wright. That
Speaker 4: he didn't put it like that. He was just saying,
Speaker 4: are you sure that it was right that at the
Speaker 4: hotel in addition to Mickey getting strangled, an officer put
Speaker 4: a night club on John's neck, pressed him down against
Speaker 4: the concrete and choked him. And it was Pete Wright.
Speaker 4: And all that had happened there was John recognized right
Speaker 4: because he had he moonlighted as a security officer at
Speaker 4: a local village center, and John was just happy to
Speaker 4: know somebody that was there. He thought maybe it would
Speaker 4: be some advantages to guy knew him, he would know
Speaker 4: he was in trouble. But Right seemed to take offense
Speaker 4: at just being recognized, and so he choked him with
Speaker 4: a night stick. Well, it seemed for some reason that
Speaker 4: the police department internal affairs wanted to charges dropped against Right,
Speaker 4: and John came back in the courtroom and Sander said,
Speaker 4: what's it about? And she says, he said, I think
Speaker 4: they want me to drop the charges in it. Right,
Speaker 4: And she said we why don't you do it? Because
Speaker 4: she didn't think that he was Right was a major
Speaker 4: player in the whole thing. And John said, no, it's
Speaker 4: just didn't feel right to me. I know what he did. Well,
Speaker 4: then Graham called him back for a second interview and
Speaker 4: clearly manipulated the interview. And I got the tape and
Speaker 4: I listened to the tape. It was obvious that he
Speaker 4: set him up to John was a very honest person,
Speaker 4: and so he got him to say, well, are you
Speaker 4: positive that was right? I mean, did you look away
Speaker 4: at any time? He said, yeah, I looked away. So
Speaker 4: he kind of manipulated the conversation so that it boxed
Speaker 4: John into saying that well, I saw him walk toward me.
Speaker 4: I saw his feet, and because he was standing there,
Speaker 4: I'll assumed he was one he choked me. And after
Speaker 4: that the charges he gets, right, were dropped.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. You right that it's the end of April and
Speaker 6: there's incidents of the profoundest. At like two am and
Speaker 6: John comes running into his parents' room and says that
Speaker 6: Victor Raymer is outside, and then Sandra heard some running,
Speaker 6: so they check to see if he he's there. The
Speaker 6: gate's open, normally it's locked. And then there's another incident
Speaker 6: May second. What happens May second? After this again, April thirtieth,
Speaker 6: what do they find.
Speaker 4: Well, it was the same kind of thing. He said
Speaker 4: that somebody was in the backyard, and Sander went out
Speaker 4: and she didn't see anybody, but she heard footsteps. What
Speaker 4: she said it sounded like two people running away from
Speaker 4: the backyard. And John's bedroom was in the second floor
Speaker 4: of a townhouse and the screen to the window was
Speaker 4: punched in. And after that they started putting locks on everything,
Speaker 4: incredible windows, doors.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they're afraid May third again. Jeff Phipps, the
Speaker 6: guy that was twenty one, had the party. That left
Speaker 6: of the party at the motel. He called John to
Speaker 6: see if he wanted to go to a bar called
Speaker 6: Chicago's that night, and John said no. Where was John
Speaker 6: going that night? To see what happens? Tell us about
Speaker 6: this night of May third? Oh wow, what John is
Speaker 6: up to?
Speaker 4: A lot went on a lot that got just ignored
Speaker 4: by the police. The young people had decided that they
Speaker 4: would go to Chicago's, but first they were going to
Speaker 4: meet at a friend's house a couple of miles away,
Speaker 4: and John had decided he wasn't going to go. He
Speaker 4: would go to the friend's house, but then when everybody
Speaker 4: else went to the bar, he would go back home.
Speaker 4: And when a friend picked him up, they went. No, actually,
Speaker 4: he picked a friend up in his car. They went
Speaker 4: to the party. They had the party beforehand. Jeff Phipps
Speaker 4: came over several times and asked if he was going
Speaker 4: to Chicago's that night. He said, no, I change his mind,
Speaker 4: He's not going. They go to the party. The party's ending,
Speaker 4: people are breaking up, other people are leaving for Chicago's.
Speaker 4: John's gonna go home, but for some reason, one of
Speaker 4: the young people Oh chased after some of the friends
Speaker 4: leaving and to get their attention through John's car keys
Speaker 4: in a car, and they're looking around for the keys.
Speaker 4: They couldn't find them. John's determined to go home, so
Speaker 4: he just figures he'll find the keys later. He leaves
Speaker 4: the car at the friend's house. The people that go
Speaker 4: to Chicago's go to Chicago's and he walks home. Well,
Speaker 4: he never made it home.
Speaker 6: Let's go back just the second. Let's go back just
Speaker 6: the second you say that he leaves, he decides to
Speaker 6: walk home. He's in the knee adjoining. He's close by
Speaker 6: to his home, so it's not too far a walk.
Speaker 4: It's not terrible along the walk, maybe a mile and
Speaker 4: a half.
Speaker 6: But he and Sandra have a very very interesting conversation.
Speaker 6: It's an incredible weekend that's happened. A few days that
Speaker 6: have happened before. With thinking that knowing that this officer
Speaker 6: rammers likely in the backyard, he's being followed, he's being harassed,
Speaker 6: he has these charges. He's trying to be convinced he
Speaker 6: was convinced to drop charges against once the police officers.
Speaker 6: One of the police officers. What's the conversation that he
Speaker 6: and Sandra have before this whole night unfolds.
Speaker 4: This was the same night as a party at the
Speaker 4: friend's house. He was getting ready for the party. He
Speaker 4: gets Sandra's upstairs in her bedroom. He's in the bathroom.
Speaker 4: He gets a phone call and just shouts. He comes
Speaker 4: out of the bathroom and shouts, would have phone up
Speaker 4: to his ears. He said, you know if that and
Speaker 4: goes into his bedroom, slams the door, and Sanders immediately
Speaker 4: learned because that's just not how he talked in the house.
Speaker 4: So he came into the room and into Sandra's bedroom
Speaker 4: to tell her good night. He's going over to a
Speaker 4: friend's house to a party, and she tries to play
Speaker 4: it cool and not back him in a corner, being
Speaker 4: you know, to see if she can find out what happened.
Speaker 4: So they talk a while and he asked her, you know,
Speaker 4: he says, you know, Jennifer was coming home from college.
Speaker 4: He'd been losing weight. Want to know if he looked good.
Speaker 4: You know, it was his belt too tight, and they said.
Speaker 4: She said, now your belt looks fine, and he was saying,
Speaker 4: you know, if he buys him Jennifer were talking about
Speaker 4: getting made and he said, well, if he bought a
Speaker 4: diamond ring for Jennifer, would his mother help him, you know,
Speaker 4: back the loan, should have put it on the visa.
Speaker 4: Should he get along she co signed it? She said, yeah,
Speaker 4: she'd be willing to co sign it. Then he's getting
Speaker 4: he's ready to leave, and she said, well, what was
Speaker 4: the phone call about? Just trying to be real casual,
Speaker 4: and he said, forget it, mom, I'm going to tell
Speaker 4: you about that. I'm all I will tell you is
Speaker 4: them Monday. I'm dropping the charges. And she said, you
Speaker 4: got to tell me about that and he said no.
Speaker 4: He said, you'll call the police, and every time you
Speaker 4: call him it just gets worse. So she says, well,
Speaker 4: I'm calling by monday. He said, well, please wait till monday.
Speaker 4: He said, but I'm telling you I'm gonna drop the charges.
Speaker 4: So they go downstairs. She falls them downstairs, and he
Speaker 4: leaves for the party that I told you about.
Speaker 6: Right now, we let's get back to when you mentioned
Speaker 6: he leaves this Keith's place. Keith offers him a arriet.
Speaker 6: He says, no, right. A woman. Later you find out
Speaker 6: sees John walking twice. He sees them spots him twice
Speaker 6: walking home, so it's established he's walking home.
Speaker 4: Right now he's close to home, and a neighbor passed him.
Speaker 4: A neighbor was taking a babysitter home, and a neighbor
Speaker 4: who lived a few doors down from Sandra John Mickey's family,
Speaker 4: and she saw him rounding the last corner like to
Speaker 4: go up the street to the house. And she told
Speaker 4: Sandra later that the police tried to get her to
Speaker 4: say that he was looked angry, but the woman said no,
Speaker 4: she wouldn't do it. He just looked like he was walking.
Speaker 4: And then later that night, I don't know how much
Speaker 4: I want to tell because it kind of I don't
Speaker 4: want to spoil it for the reader. Some more things
Speaker 4: happened that night. They were very much out of the
Speaker 4: ordinary that gave police plenty of reason to believe that
Speaker 4: this was not There was a very suspicious death.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about what happens though, is he leaves he's
Speaker 6: walking home last spotted or he leaves Key's place maybe
Speaker 6: around ten to twenty, right, and and he's nearby. Now,
Speaker 6: you talked about Sandra and some of her psychic abilities
Speaker 6: that often or once in a while, she would have
Speaker 6: a premonition. Now she is the kind of person that
Speaker 6: would stay up listen watch for her sons to come
Speaker 6: home on that night. You say she had a premonition.
Speaker 6: But she heard voices outside at some point, and she
Speaker 6: thought it was Jeff, and she saw it was Mickey
Speaker 6: and it was a car door slammed, and she's the
Speaker 6: voice sounded similar. She thought it was and so but
Speaker 6: it was Mickey. But Mickey was in his room right.
Speaker 6: So now you say that there was some premonition, what
Speaker 6: does she what does she have a premonition of? And
Speaker 6: tell us what happens?
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Speaker 4: She saw an event unfolding, and that's as much detail
Speaker 4: as on to give that something out of the ordinary
Speaker 4: was going to happen to John and it was threatening
Speaker 4: and she went running out to tell him to stay home,
Speaker 4: but he was already gone.
Speaker 6: Right next door is the Phipps place and at Sylvia
Speaker 6: Phipps at around two am, they didn't. She watches that
Speaker 6: Sylvia Phipps welcomes her son, Jeff Holme. Then you write
Speaker 6: about a former Michigan police officer who lived with his
Speaker 6: wife in the End unit, a couple of doors down
Speaker 6: from Sandra and Jim Kaiser, her husband. Right around two am,
Speaker 6: he got a phone call and it was just a
Speaker 6: hang up, and he got another phone call, but it
Speaker 6: woke him up out of his sleep. After he's woken
Speaker 6: out of his sleep, what does he hear?
Speaker 4: He had rattling and banging sounds from the vicinity of
Speaker 4: the school, and he heard them for lasting ten to
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes. And he also saw a car back up
Speaker 4: from an area that had visibility of that area and
Speaker 4: back up through the neighborhood. And by the makeup of
Speaker 4: the lights and the lighting in the neighborhood, he was
Speaker 4: pretty sure he knew what kind of car it was.
Speaker 6: Now and he's seen in the morning story.
Speaker 4: He said, there's just no question about it. He went
Speaker 4: later on to police report. The police tried to discount it.
Speaker 6: Now, this worried woman, Sandra, after she hears all these things,
Speaker 6: what happens in the morning and he doesn't come home?
Speaker 6: She has a job. What happens? Tell us what happens
Speaker 6: the next morning? What does she think? What is? How
Speaker 6: does she feel? But what happens the next morning?
Speaker 4: Who? We're telling a lot? But for opener, somebody broke
Speaker 4: into the house. While John's body was discovered at the
Speaker 4: school hanging from a backstop, not hanging from it, but
Speaker 4: pressed up against it, gripping on to it with the
Speaker 4: means of his salvation in his hands. But his death
Speaker 4: was immediately declared a suicide. They didn't do any investigation.
Speaker 4: They sent his body straight to a local funeral home,
Speaker 4: which is just unheard of, with no autopsy. Came to
Speaker 4: the house to explain that just to the family that
Speaker 4: in their opinion, John had committed suicide, and.
Speaker 6: John family wasn't Mickey, the family wasn't too and the
Speaker 6: family wasn't convinced. You write about the harrowing experience of
Speaker 6: the police coming to the home telling Mickey about his
Speaker 6: brother and saying this, matter of factly, he's dead. Mickey
Speaker 6: is defiant, says, prove it. They show him his identification.
Speaker 6: He says, you better call my mom.
Speaker 4: Was gone to work by then. Mickey's the one who
Speaker 4: was at home and heard the person break into the house.
Speaker 4: He was still asleep.
Speaker 6: What did he think about that break and enter? And
Speaker 6: what did he tell his mother? It's very interesting he
Speaker 6: had heard those noises, but what did he attribute those
Speaker 6: two and what did he tell his mother?
Speaker 4: He thought John John was on his way to work.
Speaker 4: So Sander was all upset because she had a premonission
Speaker 4: about the night and she was just convinced something terrible
Speaker 4: had happened.
Speaker 1: And she.
Speaker 4: Called home to find out where John was, and Micky said,
Speaker 4: don't worry about it. John just left the house. He's
Speaker 4: on his way home. Well, then she got a phone
Speaker 4: call and went home, and that's when she had a
Speaker 4: conversation with the police.
Speaker 6: Now you hear again before you hear about this from
Speaker 6: your wife, Jane, about this horrible news. I got to
Speaker 6: say to explain more about this hanging. Not to be
Speaker 6: so graphic, but there's a backstop for all people that
Speaker 6: you know behind a baseball diamond. People are very familiar
Speaker 6: with a backstop with a screening and a couple of
Speaker 6: big polls. But there had been this cable that the
Speaker 6: school had used for various reasons and won't go into that,
Speaker 6: but there was a cable up there that he was
Speaker 6: attached to and they and so we won't get into
Speaker 6: exactly what was said to Sandra. But you find out
Speaker 6: from your wife Jane about this, what do you do
Speaker 6: in terms of reaching out to the family, and then
Speaker 6: how do you get involved in this before we start
Speaker 6: telling talking about all the details that you are given
Speaker 6: and be able to further this investigation on behalf of
Speaker 6: John Bowie.
Speaker 4: But at this point I didn't know anything. I called
Speaker 4: home to tell my wife it was a Friday, and
Speaker 4: I just said I had to work late, and she
Speaker 4: interrupted me and said that John Bouie was dead. He
Speaker 4: had committed suicide. Well, I was just stunned. It just
Speaker 4: didn't sound like John. But not knowing any of the above,
Speaker 4: and because it was being and a lot of other things,
Speaker 4: because it was being said by authorities, I believed it
Speaker 4: and I just forgot about work and I came home
Speaker 4: and I was very upset, but I was self conscious.
Speaker 4: At this point I didn't really know Sander and her
Speaker 4: family well enough. We weren't regular friends, like keeping up
Speaker 4: with each other's lives. I had to call a friend
Speaker 4: of John's and Mickey's to find out where they were
Speaker 4: living now because Sandra had gotten married, and so he
Speaker 4: told me where they were living, and I said that,
Speaker 4: you know, I was kind of reluctant to go there
Speaker 4: because I was just self conscious, and thank goodness, he
Speaker 4: talked me out of it, and he said, you gotta go. Well,
Speaker 4: I told Jane, I'll be back in a few minutes.
Speaker 4: My wife and I show up, and I mean, there
Speaker 4: are just dozens of people still at the house and
Speaker 4: I all I intended to do was all for my
Speaker 4: condolences and to at least speak to Mickey, and so
Speaker 4: I did that, and then I was ready to leave,
Speaker 4: but Sanders said, please don't. And she said it and
Speaker 4: with such intensity, I thought, Okay, I'll stick around, even
Speaker 4: though I was been uncomfortable. So I just sat around
Speaker 4: listening to people talk about the red roof inn and
Speaker 4: being harassed and it just sounded unber levable to me,
Speaker 4: and I just was like stunned. And then the family's attorney,
Speaker 4: one of them, Joe Glasgow, showed up with papers saying
Speaker 4: that they could keep Victor Riemer away from John, and
Speaker 4: I said, wait a minute, who's dreamer. Well then that
Speaker 4: just led to a flood of stories, and at one
Speaker 4: point Joe Glasgow, the attorney, said that John wasn't really
Speaker 4: hanging from the backstop. He was lying against it. His
Speaker 4: head was on the top of the backstop. He was
Speaker 4: clutching the wire with his fists, just clutching it with
Speaker 4: his fingers through the wire. Well, that just shocked me,
Speaker 4: and I said, you got to be kidding me, I said,
Speaker 4: this kid, I know. I'm sorry. I'm starting to lose it.
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Speaker 6: slash murder. Now I know recalling hearing about this, the
Speaker 6: details of the person that you knew about their again,
Speaker 6: what police are calling a suicide for anybody that knows John, Sandra, yourself, everyone,
Speaker 6: everyone's in incredible disbelief the idea that the police would
Speaker 6: have deemed that there will be no autopsy, and that
Speaker 6: the one person that that Sandra spoke to said, I'm
Speaker 6: an authority here and I'm going to be determining whether
Speaker 6: it's there was an autopsy or not. Now, you did
Speaker 6: get together, you signed you got a petition together. Almost
Speaker 6: immediately you became involved, rolled up your sleeves. There was
Speaker 6: a team of people involved in this, and so you
Speaker 6: start doing some investigation. You say, you talk to other
Speaker 6: people about Victor Raymer's behavior to establish just what kind
Speaker 6: of person he was. You talked to a person named
Speaker 6: Charlie Brown and about his son, Andy Brown. What are
Speaker 6: the kinds of things that you found out about Victor
Speaker 6: Raymer and this investigation? And what were the Internal Affairs
Speaker 6: Division doing on behalf of this? The people that are
Speaker 6: supposedly helping to look into what really happened to John.
Speaker 4: That's a big chew. Andy Brown had a very similar experience.
Speaker 4: And Andy, I'd known only as his dad, was an
Speaker 4: excellent parent coach, and I had played against him and
Speaker 4: he had been and lost our teams that I coached.
Speaker 4: And I called him to find out if he knew
Speaker 4: about some other kids that are supposed to have had
Speaker 4: a incident with the police, and he said, yeah, he
Speaker 4: was one of them. Well, and he's one of those
Speaker 4: people that I just trusted, you know. He told me something.
Speaker 4: I believed it, and he repeated an equally harrying story
Speaker 4: to match the red roof in about he and some
Speaker 4: other friends had been to a party and they wound
Speaker 4: up getting beat up and taken to the police station,
Speaker 4: kicked in the police station, and long story short, he
Speaker 4: winds up being found guilty of resisting arrest and other things,
Speaker 4: and he got put on all kinds of community activities
Speaker 4: he had to do for a long time, and just
Speaker 4: said he had he had no use for the police
Speaker 4: in the county, that it just it was unbelievable. What
Speaker 4: are you going through? And when I remember talking to
Speaker 4: his dad, and his dad said, when I went to
Speaker 4: talk with Andy, his dad said, you know, I didn't
Speaker 4: know about the police around here until this happened to Andy.
Speaker 4: But I'm telling you. Watch you back. I said, what
Speaker 4: are you talking about? He said, I'm just telling you. Well,
Speaker 4: I didn't say anything. We didn't got my attention. I
Speaker 4: took a statement from Andy. We went back and forth
Speaker 4: until I finally had it right to his satisfaction and
Speaker 4: turned it into the attorneys so that they could use it,
Speaker 4: and it got blown off. Like a lot of other statements,
Speaker 4: there was.
Speaker 6: An effort by the city to look and police to
Speaker 6: look like that there was there was. They were looking
Speaker 6: into the concerns of Sandra and yourself and the reverend.
Speaker 6: And in that respect, you said that that you found
Speaker 6: a lot of things like, for example, this combination lock
Speaker 6: for this cable, and their approach to the same evidence
Speaker 6: about this lock. Not to get into all those little details,
Speaker 6: but what are the kinds of things that they said
Speaker 6: as they concluded about this suicide and the cable and
Speaker 6: some of the things that he must have done to
Speaker 6: be able to commit this suicide. And then after that,
Speaker 6: tell us how the press responded to those same claimed.
Speaker 4: Well, there was a lock, the cable that was around
Speaker 4: his neck was locked down. The athletic director at the
Speaker 4: school confirmed that it was locked down. The lot was
Speaker 4: never found. And I kept trying to explain to people,
Speaker 4: you know, that makes no sense. That means this kid
Speaker 4: determined on committing suicide, as you claim, had declined the
Speaker 4: backstop twice, get rid of, get the lock off, the
Speaker 4: cables of the now come back down and get rid
Speaker 4: of the lock, go back up. That makes no sense.
Speaker 4: But they just blew that off and eventually said, we
Speaker 4: just don't think it was locked down. We think you're mistaken.
Speaker 4: And there were several other things like that. We made
Speaker 4: a list, we will make sure they had everything that
Speaker 4: we knew. And there were other things very much like that.
Speaker 4: We said, you know what about this and this and this,
Speaker 4: and they just discounted it and said, nah, not important,
Speaker 4: or it doesn't matter, I mean, or we can't find out.
Speaker 4: And the press is dependent on the police department for stories,
Speaker 4: you know, the police department has press reviews. The press
Speaker 4: goes there, they get the story and to some extent
Speaker 4: telling the police department side of things. They don't have
Speaker 4: much of a choice. They can talk to other people.
Speaker 4: But it turned out being just there were so many
Speaker 4: things that just never made the press. And that's one
Speaker 4: reason I wrote the book is to get things into
Speaker 4: the public's hands that were never told. And they're just
Speaker 4: tons of tons of things. I always believed that if
Speaker 4: the public knew what we knew, they wouldn't want to
Speaker 4: put up with it any more than we did, and
Speaker 4: it just never came to that point where they knew.
Speaker 6: You also talk about two bullets that were found and
Speaker 6: the idea of duct tape and vinyl cable. Just tell
Speaker 6: us about duct tape and tell us about the two
Speaker 6: bullets and what you might think that indicates as a possibility.
Speaker 4: Well, two bullets were found that during the that morning
Speaker 4: that John's body was found. One was old and dirty
Speaker 4: and the other was clearly new. And I didn't at
Speaker 4: first know quite what to make about that. I mean,
Speaker 4: there's several possibilities, and you could speculate just odd they
Speaker 4: were found at the backstaff one of the detectives, who
Speaker 4: seemed to be trying to take a very honest and
Speaker 4: honorable approach, but it was not really as so far
Speaker 4: as I knew directly connected with the investigation.
Speaker 3: Later.
Speaker 4: Also noticed that there was duct tape that had been
Speaker 4: pulled away from the cable that kind of held everything
Speaker 4: in place. He said, it just looked like it was
Speaker 4: freshly removed. And then the Buie Kaiser family found similar
Speaker 4: duct tape in their backyard, which is just bizarre. Like
Speaker 4: when I found about that, found out about that, I
Speaker 4: find you know, it just makes no sense. I mean,
Speaker 4: but I just don't know what to say about that.
Speaker 6: They also claimed that he had an eighteen percent blood
Speaker 6: alcohol level, which would again they said, attributed to his
Speaker 6: being drunken out of his mind and not being reasonable.
Speaker 6: What did you think about that? And in the second
Speaker 6: you guys pushed for a second autopsy in that tell
Speaker 6: us about the first autopsy results, But then what were
Speaker 6: the second autopsy results, and what was the difference in
Speaker 6: terms of people attending and what happened.
Speaker 4: Well, the first autopsy just basically decided that there was
Speaker 4: a suicide. There's a police officer standing there, which is
Speaker 4: the normal procedure offering investigative details. And the family was
Speaker 4: just very worried that it was not going to be
Speaker 4: an honest autopsy. So they had a second autopsy done
Speaker 4: and the family paid for it and without spoiling it
Speaker 4: for everybody. There was very interesting differences things in the
Speaker 4: second autopsy that were not in the first. And a
Speaker 4: friend of mine that became involved as well, Reverend David Rogers,
Speaker 4: called the second the medical examiner for the second autopsy
Speaker 4: who was in West Virginia and wanted to know about
Speaker 4: some of these things that were in it. And the
Speaker 4: medical examiner said they definitely could have been the cause
Speaker 4: of death, and they happened. They weren't a result from
Speaker 4: hanging on the backstop, and they weren't even in the
Speaker 4: first autopsy.
Speaker 6: Tell us about Ginny Thomas, we might beget a little
Speaker 6: bit ahead, But tell us about Genny Thomas. How you
Speaker 6: know her and what do you think you can do
Speaker 6: by employing her her help?
Speaker 4: Jenny's just an honest politician. She was a friend of
Speaker 4: a family friend we had my wife and I had
Speaker 4: supported her in past elections. She knew that I coached
Speaker 4: baseball acted me to try to have a meeting between
Speaker 4: the police and the community to see if they can
Speaker 4: sort things out, and it was an honest intention, and
Speaker 4: so I said sure, And that kind of got me
Speaker 4: involved to a deeper degree because that's what led me
Speaker 4: to be talking with all these young people and finding
Speaker 4: out what they could tell me about the Red roof Inn.
Speaker 4: And then as a consequence, there was a meeting between
Speaker 4: the police and the community, and long story short, the
Speaker 4: police just had an answer for everything. And just to
Speaker 4: add to that, soon after, there was an article in
Speaker 4: a local newspaper saying that the chief police have called
Speaker 4: a press conference for the purpose of quelling rumors that
Speaker 4: it was on the sumer side suicide. And I thought,
Speaker 4: for crying out loud, you know you're supposed to be
Speaker 4: investigating what kind of rumors you try to quill? Just
Speaker 4: go find out, So that that was annoying to say
Speaker 4: the least.
Speaker 6: It's it's very interesting in the book, how you you're
Speaker 6: you're courageous, but you're you're infuriated at this what you
Speaker 6: call a whitewash committee. That you've got their attention. It
Speaker 6: seems you're you're confident, or at least you're optimistic with say,
Speaker 6: and yet you admonish these people. You admonish these people.
Speaker 6: You're you're not afraid to admonish these people over the
Speaker 6: things you say, the treatment by police of the Bowie
Speaker 6: family number one, and all of the things that they
Speaker 6: didn't investigate that they did. They again, even when you
Speaker 6: admonished them, they didn't have an answer for those things.
Speaker 6: Did they the specific things like the Locke and accounting
Speaker 6: for his time? Many things that they did not answer to,
Speaker 6: And that meeting was ended, Wasn't it.
Speaker 4: The reason I called it the whitewash committee in my
Speaker 4: mind was because makeup of the committee. There was an
Speaker 4: attorney who was supposed to be charging Mickey with various things.
Speaker 4: There was somebody from the Office of the Law who
Speaker 4: was involved in charging Mickey, and I thought, there's no
Speaker 4: way I'm going to be outspoken in this committee. All
Speaker 4: I was doing was showing up there to be a
Speaker 4: presence to keep the story alive and hope that something
Speaker 4: would arise that would persuade people to investigate it, honestly,
Speaker 4: but I had no hope for the committee coming up
Speaker 4: with anything. They didn't and I wasn't even a major
Speaker 4: contributor in it. And I did say some things that
Speaker 4: got in the papers that I'll let the reader find
Speaker 4: out what they were.
Speaker 6: Now, when does the state police become involved? You were
Speaker 6: talking about this meeting and there's some people sitting there.
Speaker 6: When are you introduced? When is everyone introduced to the
Speaker 6: state police? And what's the rule? What are they going
Speaker 6: to do in this case?
Speaker 4: This is probably a good time to mention just how
Speaker 4: naive I was, because I just thought you took information,
Speaker 4: you gave it to the justice system, and they did
Speaker 4: something about it. And it was at the meeting, the
Speaker 4: community meeting with the police, that the county prosecutor we
Speaker 4: call a state's attorney in Maryland introduced these people from
Speaker 4: the state Police and said they're going to have an
Speaker 4: independent investigation. And I was ecstatic. I couldn't wait to
Speaker 4: go home and go back tell Sandra about it. But
Speaker 4: I was very impressed with him and It didn't dawn
Speaker 4: on me until later that it wasn't independent at all
Speaker 4: that they were answering to the very people. The county
Speaker 4: prosecutor who was responsible for finding Mickey guilty of things,
Speaker 4: and the guy who was the head of the committee
Speaker 4: of the special investigation was a personal friend of the
Speaker 4: local chief police. So that kind of slowly don't know me,
Speaker 4: and I mean slowly, I just the information I gathered.
Speaker 4: I just kept taking in, thinking, well, good, how about this,
Speaker 4: how about this, how about this? And it just kept
Speaker 4: getting blown off.
Speaker 6: Now, an incredible incident happens in this again all ever
Speaker 6: increasing and fascinating story. There's a knock on Sandra's door
Speaker 6: one night, a woman named Lisa. There's some information that
Speaker 6: she tells them. She believes that I'll let you tell it,
Speaker 6: but she believes that Mickey's in danger. Tell us what
Speaker 6: she saw, what she thinks she saw. Tell us about
Speaker 6: this incredible event, and what happens after.
Speaker 4: Lisa thought, or at least she said, she saw somebody
Speaker 4: being abducted at the backstop. This was all the night before, Oh, Johnny,
Speaker 4: Mickey's friend and Jeff Phipps were to testify in court,
Speaker 4: and she can finally persuaded Sandra to go take a look,
Speaker 4: but they didn't find anything. And then the next morning
Speaker 4: we hear that Jeff has in fact been abducted, according
Speaker 4: to him. And I don't know what to tell you
Speaker 4: about that. It was just harrowing. It was unbelievable. I
Speaker 4: was spelling out in greater linked than the book, but
Speaker 4: it was just bizarre.
Speaker 6: You talk about that, the first thing anyone heard was
Speaker 6: that he was strangled and meaning dead and so incredibly,
Speaker 6: this is at the backstop, and and Sandra had warned people,
Speaker 6: because we didn't mention this, that there's vigils at this backstop.
Speaker 6: There's a vigil.
Speaker 4: It was July the fourth, and they had a vigil.
Speaker 4: It was the night before they were to testify against
Speaker 4: the police. And after it was over, there were fireworks
Speaker 4: and some of the kids hung around at the fire
Speaker 4: at the backstop, and Sandra felt like she had a
Speaker 4: premonition and she came down and told the kids to
Speaker 4: get away from the backstop. There was dangerous down there. Well,
Speaker 4: this field finally cleared, the backstops are over, and Jeff
Speaker 4: just goes there to kind of sit and think about
Speaker 4: the testimony he's giving the next day and get himself settled,
Speaker 4: and he said somebody came up behind him and wrapped
Speaker 4: a cord around his neck and walked him off into
Speaker 4: the woods. He fainted, woke up, frightened, called police, went
Speaker 4: to the hospital, showed up the next day in court
Speaker 4: to testify. It's more involved than that, but that's enough.
Speaker 6: What the idea that he was strangled and then the
Speaker 6: idea of this vinyl rope and you as you write
Speaker 6: that he can't see who's leading him around? Incredibly with this,
Speaker 6: with this some kind of rope, some kind of apparatus
Speaker 6: where he can't see. He can't see, but he's been
Speaker 6: a lad around and they need to pull on tightly
Speaker 6: on this cable or rope, as he says, But he
Speaker 6: didn't and that tightens it up, and he faints. He's
Speaker 6: in an area, doesn't he doesn't know? And then he
Speaker 6: supposedly goes to the hospital. What are you told by
Speaker 6: by the attorney for Mickey? What are you told this
Speaker 6: is part of the team of this people that are concerned,
Speaker 6: that want to investigate this. What does Tina Gutaris tell
Speaker 6: you to do well?
Speaker 4: One of the family attorneys at this point was Christina
Speaker 4: gudier Is. At the time, I didn't know that she
Speaker 4: was the attorney for I didn't know anything about cereal
Speaker 4: one or she had had was the attorney that was
Speaker 4: attorney of record at any had SAYD trial. She was
Speaker 4: at that She was at the top of her game
Speaker 4: two weeks before she had She was the first Hispanic
Speaker 4: woman to ever have a case. She was an attorney
Speaker 4: of record.
Speaker 6: For a.
Speaker 4: Court heard before the US case heard before the US
Speaker 4: Supreme Court, and she was a rising star in the
Speaker 4: local area. She was she was a force. She That's
Speaker 4: first time I ever saw her was on July the fifth,
Speaker 4: after Jeff said he was strangled and I introduced myself.
Speaker 4: She wasn't quite sure who I was, but Sandra said
Speaker 4: I was okay, and she asked me to go to
Speaker 4: the hospital and find out get Jeff back there because
Speaker 4: he needs did testify. And so I went to the hospital,
Speaker 4: but some friends had already picked him.
Speaker 1: Up and.
Speaker 4: Taken him back to testify. But more than once in
Speaker 4: this case, when people showed up and something unusual happened,
Speaker 4: the case got postponed. It's like one time they brought
Speaker 4: in somebody to call it said it was a hanging judge,
Speaker 4: meaning very prone to prosecute, to find people guilty. And
Speaker 4: then this time, because of all the commotion, they postponed it.
Speaker 4: So we went over to Attorney Joe Glasgow's office. Tina
Speaker 4: Goodiers was there. She got Jeff a separate attorney because
Speaker 4: she said, this case is just getting too crazy. And
Speaker 4: that's where I learned the story about Jeff. I talked
Speaker 4: to him personally then and later several times.
Speaker 6: Now you have a people and I mentioned your team,
Speaker 6: your unofficial team here, but you also have some of
Speaker 6: these people that were involved in that motel, friends of
Speaker 6: John and Mickey that are also involved. You talk about
Speaker 6: as Shan Stewart, he finds some stuff, tell us about
Speaker 6: the significance of the snuff container.
Speaker 4: The significance to me, Sean was a very bright young
Speaker 4: man who very courageous, and he went to the scene
Speaker 4: where Jeff woke up, and he found things that were
Speaker 4: just lying about, and he packed him up in a
Speaker 4: plastic bag and gave him to the state police. And
Speaker 4: basically the state police said we're not interested. And I said, well,
Speaker 4: what do you mean you're not interested? I said, you
Speaker 4: could at least take a look, and they blew it off.
Speaker 4: They said, now this is for the county to look into.
Speaker 4: It's not our jeurisdiction. And that kind of surprised me.
Speaker 4: Says they were the independent investigators. But that's what they did,
Speaker 4: and they never did anything with it. He just got
Speaker 4: what he looked lost in the story.
Speaker 6: Now, this conversation with Johnsonelli, this former again an incredible
Speaker 6: person in terms of a former Michigan police officer. What
Speaker 6: was the police viewpoint on time of death? And so
Speaker 6: as a result, what did they do with the two
Speaker 6: am to three am claims by Johnsonelli.
Speaker 4: They kept saying that they were saying an earlier time
Speaker 4: of death, and Sinnelli was saying, no, that's not it.
Speaker 4: It was later because the noises he heard. And they
Speaker 4: actually went to talk to another guy and tried to
Speaker 4: get him to say that he had all he'd heard
Speaker 4: was laughing come from that area because he was a
Speaker 4: writer and he was up that time of night. And
Speaker 4: when I read that in the police report, I just
Speaker 4: assume they're trying to counter what Snelli said because he
Speaker 4: was credible, and John and I talked several times and
Speaker 4: they just discounted that, just like everything else.
Speaker 6: Tell us about the grand jury.
Speaker 4: I didn't know at the time. Tina Goodier has explained
Speaker 4: this to me, and now I understand. Grand jury historically
Speaker 4: is a charade. The county prosecutor is running it. He
Speaker 4: decides what people here, and he's also the one who's
Speaker 4: charging Mickey with various things, and he's also responsible for
Speaker 4: deciding whether police officers are involved. And there are parts
Speaker 4: about that that I don't want to do diss because
Speaker 4: again it might just spoil it for the reader. But
Speaker 4: I tried. I just tell what I know and what happened,
Speaker 4: and it's clear that he had no intention to find
Speaker 4: anybody guilty, and that's how it turned out. And what
Speaker 4: I learned was that if you don't do what the count,
Speaker 4: what the prosecutor wants you to do in a grand
Speaker 4: jury is called a runaway grand jury. Tiny Goodiers explained
Speaker 4: that to me. And so they're innocent in the process.
Speaker 4: They're just hearing what they're what they're being told. And
Speaker 4: I actually was in the courthouse several times when they
Speaker 4: were there, and I remember one time, particularly, Lysander and
Speaker 4: I were in the basement of the courthouse and they
Speaker 4: walked out and they spotted us and they recognized us,
Speaker 4: and they looked absolutely angry, and I thought, geez, well
Speaker 4: on earth are they being told? At the time, we
Speaker 4: weren't allowed to talk about it because it's supposedly secret
Speaker 4: process until it's over. But eventually I talked to Mickey,
Speaker 4: and Mickey is a very direct person, and he said
Speaker 4: they just asked him stupid things like did he how
Speaker 4: much did he drink? And did he smoke marijuana? He
Speaker 4: said they weren't interested in any details that he could
Speaker 4: have told him.
Speaker 6: What is Sandra doing in all of this in terms
Speaker 6: of her reaction? Of course, she's reaching out to these
Speaker 6: authorities always. You mentioned that committee everyone attended, but she
Speaker 6: was absent from that committee. She did not attend. What
Speaker 6: is she doing through this? How is she handling this?
Speaker 6: What is her what is her mood through all of this?
Speaker 4: There's some parts of that that I won't tell that
Speaker 4: are very startling, But I will say that Sander's remarkable
Speaker 4: and she's very direct. Splikey doesn't say it. You just
Speaker 4: don't want to mess with Sander. And she saw to
Speaker 4: it that things got into the newspapers. She got petitions
Speaker 4: written to counter things that what I call the Whitewash
Speaker 4: Committee was saying she wrote letters to the flyer. It
Speaker 4: quite remarkable and she basically, from my perspective, turned the
Speaker 4: county upside down.
Speaker 6: Quite a bit of this book is part of the
Speaker 6: incredible nature of this is the premonitions that Sandra has
Speaker 6: and the timing of those premonitions and just her abilities.
Speaker 6: But what we haven't mentioned is that one of the
Speaker 6: again unseen partners in this team is somebody helping you
Speaker 6: and they have psychic abilities that have been proven to
Speaker 6: you over and over again. Tell us who you go
Speaker 6: to and what your mother's participation was in this case.
Speaker 4: Well, one of the interesting things. And again I won't
Speaker 4: go into a lot of detail, so it's not to
Speaker 4: spoil it. People have different opinions about psychic ability, and
Speaker 4: I respect that. I think it's important to keep a
Speaker 4: balanced view, and I don't mind skeptics at all. I
Speaker 4: think it gives that kind of conversation balance. But the
Speaker 4: fact is I grew up with a psychic mother. It
Speaker 4: was a rather remarkable experience for me. She wasn't trying
Speaker 4: to sell anything. She was a very psychic, very spiritual person,
Speaker 4: and if you'd asked her, if she had to give
Speaker 4: up one of those abilities, she would gladly have given
Speaker 4: ving ups, given up being psychic, but she couldn't. And
Speaker 4: when things just seemed to be all wrong to me,
Speaker 4: I finally just broke down and called her and asked
Speaker 4: her what she thought happened, and she put a lot
Speaker 4: of time into it, and it helped steer me into
Speaker 4: my thinking. You don't think you don't take those things literally,
Speaker 4: you take them as well. This really gets my attention.
Speaker 4: And now, for example, you can't go on the stand
Speaker 4: in the court and say, well, my mother told me,
Speaker 4: and she's psychic, that this is what happened. But it
Speaker 4: does help steer you and give some credibility to keep
Speaker 4: your mind open so that you keep looking for things
Speaker 4: that might really be evidence that can be used. And
Speaker 4: it was very helpful I told to my mother throughout
Speaker 4: this thing, and it was a wonderful opportunity to get
Speaker 4: grounded and get perspective. And of the remarkable people that
Speaker 4: I've met who have this kind of ability and just
Speaker 4: don't want people to know it because they don't want
Speaker 4: people to think they're crazy, And that's a terrible loss,
Speaker 4: if you ask me, for society, when somebody is really
Speaker 4: skilled and honest and has a grip on it. I
Speaker 4: always told myself that if I ever met anybody with that
Speaker 4: kind of ability, I would support them anyway I could
Speaker 4: and try to encourage them. Well, this had been going
Speaker 4: on for quite a long time when it finally dawned
Speaker 4: on me, I had actually been given that opportunity, and
Speaker 4: it was becoming friends with Sandra. Her contribution was just remarkable,
Speaker 4: sometimes too, sometimes leading her to tell me when I
Speaker 4: thought I knew what would happen, she said, you don't
Speaker 4: have a clue. And it got my attention, but it
Speaker 4: was just part of the mix, and I couldn't tell
Speaker 4: the story honestly if I didn't talk about it. And
Speaker 4: I'll let the reader look into that and see what
Speaker 4: they think.
Speaker 6: You talked about. One day in Glasgow's office, Sandra heard
Speaker 6: the name of FBI agent investigator investigating John's death was
Speaker 6: a person named Arthur Bellinger, and she wrote down the name.
Speaker 6: At this time, what did Lisa house? Again? This Lisa House.
Speaker 6: It's a very interesting but confusing part of this story. Again.
Speaker 6: She moves in with Sandra at the same time that
Speaker 6: the FBI are investigating John's death. What do you make
Speaker 6: of that? What did you make of.
Speaker 4: That let me mention that there are four or five
Speaker 4: names in books in the book that are not the
Speaker 4: actual name, and that was for no particular reason except
Speaker 4: thirty years a going by my original book notes, in
Speaker 4: an effort to let people know, I didn't feel it
Speaker 4: was responsible to be throwing people's names around, but so
Speaker 4: I could let people know publicly of what was going
Speaker 4: on behind the scenes, I did write it down and
Speaker 4: dispersed it, and I changed the names because all I
Speaker 4: wanted was people to see the details without doing unjust
Speaker 4: harmed anybody. Well, then years go by and I couldn't
Speaker 4: reconstruct some of those names, and one of them was
Speaker 4: this Arthur Bellinger who was FBI. His first name was Ken.
Speaker 4: I called the FBI office and asked for his right name,
Speaker 4: but they never called me back, so I just to
Speaker 4: keep him in the story, I had to change his name,
Speaker 4: and I would much have preferred to use his right name,
Speaker 4: but it just turns out that's not it. The same
Speaker 4: thing is true, interesting enough of Arthur Graham. I just
Speaker 4: I couldn't be sure that I was talking about the
Speaker 4: right person, and I didn't want to do a disservice
Speaker 4: to anybody, so I just made up a name. But once,
Speaker 4: I think, once the FBI and got involved, Lisa House
Speaker 4: shows up at Sander's house and basically moved in and
Speaker 4: told moved in with her and said she was afraid
Speaker 4: to go home, and there were lots of terrible things
Speaker 4: going on, and I won't go into linked the detail,
Speaker 4: but she basically was trying to pull information out of
Speaker 4: out of the family and it just it was all
Speaker 4: very strange, and eventually Sander kicked her out, and that's
Speaker 4: let's just leave it there. There's a lot more detail
Speaker 4: in the book.
Speaker 6: You talk about the f by FBI being involved, and
Speaker 6: so people are vindicated in terms of their suspicions in
Speaker 6: that the FBI runs some plates on Raymer and his buddies.
Speaker 6: And sure enough, as we mentioned before, when it was
Speaker 6: report saying that he was in the neighborhood, he had
Speaker 6: a brown pickup, so they have his plates. They have
Speaker 6: him being in following, being around Sandra when he obviously
Speaker 6: shouldn't be, other times when he's out of his patrol area,
Speaker 6: yet Sandra sees him. So the FBI did get a
Speaker 6: good take on this, and these Ramer and Johnson are
Speaker 6: eventually convicted, aren't they excessive.
Speaker 4: Force by the police department. The internal Affairs apartment did
Speaker 4: find them guilty. There was a long and thron out
Speaker 4: police trial board that I just I just touched on
Speaker 4: in the book because I couldn't write a thousand page book.
Speaker 4: But the bottom line was that even though the police
Speaker 4: department Internal Affairs division found them guilty, the internal there
Speaker 4: is a follow up procedure and that ruling was overturned.
Speaker 6: Now this federal grand jury, Sandra has to appear. Do
Speaker 6: you have to appear? Tell us about the federal grand
Speaker 6: jury and the end results in terms of what they
Speaker 6: were trying to do. You talk about two things that
Speaker 6: this grand jury had to look at at the same time,
Speaker 6: tell us about Tina thinking that this should be disconnected
Speaker 6: or not disconnected.
Speaker 4: That was the county grand jury. It was a county
Speaker 4: grand jury that was in. There was a federal grand jury,
Speaker 4: but the county grand jury was responsible both for deciding
Speaker 4: were any police officers involved in John's death or was
Speaker 4: in what was the death side? And was ord John
Speaker 4: and Mickey guilty of assault? And it was Tina's feeling
Speaker 4: was that he just was not right to hold those
Speaker 4: two things together. But the county prosecutor got to decide,
Speaker 4: and he decided that they would be decided together. And
Speaker 4: that's about all I want to say about that. I
Speaker 4: don't want to spoil things.
Speaker 6: The list that you brought to this Ballinger not his
Speaker 6: real name. There's three dozen things that you wanted the
Speaker 6: FBI to know. Did you get to express those and
Speaker 6: what did they think of those things on that list?
Speaker 4: That was an interesting experience. Someone on the Whitewash Committee
Speaker 4: explained to me that when the FBI, a law enforcement
Speaker 4: person was explaining to me that when the FBI took
Speaker 4: a case seriously, they had a bound volume and they
Speaker 4: kept their notes, but if they weren't terribly interested in
Speaker 4: who they were interviewing, they used a yellow pad. And
Speaker 4: the first thing I noticed when I showed up to
Speaker 4: be talked to by them was that Lisa's car was
Speaker 4: in the parking lot. It had a distinctive license plate.
Speaker 4: It was a distinctive car, and there was no question
Speaker 4: that Lisa was there in the FBI building, and I
Speaker 4: took note of it mentally. Then I go in and
Speaker 4: the FBI agents are talking to me, taking their notes
Speaker 4: on a yellow pad. I lay out through them everything
Speaker 4: that I could possibly think of and I came away
Speaker 4: with the impression that they weren't particularly interested in what
Speaker 4: I had to tell them. That's not to say that
Speaker 4: they weren't, to some extent trying to do an honest job,
Speaker 4: but I guess short version let me say that, I'll
Speaker 4: just say that three different people investigated this, and it
Speaker 4: became eventually obvious that at some point something or somebody
Speaker 4: made them back off. And that was what I wanted
Speaker 4: to know. I wanted to know what really happened. How
Speaker 4: come people are trying to make us back off? Why
Speaker 4: can't you do a real investigation? And I've written the
Speaker 4: book to just show the reader here and here and
Speaker 4: hear all the things that have happened, some of which
Speaker 4: we've talked about today, some of which we haven't had
Speaker 4: time to talk about, and yet they weren't taken seriously.
Speaker 4: And I want the reader to know what they were.
Speaker 4: And my hope is that responsible law enforcement officers, because
Speaker 4: this is not an anti police book. I don't mean
Speaker 4: for it to be. I have friends and relatives who
Speaker 4: have been or are police officers, and I honor and
Speaker 4: respect what they do, but this was not handled well,
Speaker 4: and I want honest police officer to read it and
Speaker 4: not be satisfied. I want the community that never saw
Speaker 4: these details to read it and not be satisfied. And
Speaker 4: I really hope that somebody will come forward and feel
Speaker 4: safe in saying we know something about this. And I
Speaker 4: don't want it to be a public circus. I just won't.
Speaker 4: I want to wake up one morning and read the
Speaker 4: headlines and say they've found out.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. It's also a tribute to the many courageous people
Speaker 6: that with the police threatening all of these people, Meki,
Speaker 6: Johnny Chongko, all kinds of people endured the threats of
Speaker 6: police and that pressure, and yet still people came to you,
Speaker 6: came forward, came to court to be able to testify,
Speaker 6: to be able to bear witness to what actually happened.
Speaker 4: A courageous I don't want to go ahead. I'm sorry, no,
Speaker 4: go ahead. I do not want to leave the impression
Speaker 4: that I was the only person that was looking into this.
Speaker 4: I mean, this family had a community of friends who
Speaker 4: were doing everything they could to provide them with the
Speaker 4: family with information that they could share with the investigating
Speaker 4: agencies and give them every opportunity to realize this was
Speaker 4: no suicide. And let's treat it that way. It wasn't
Speaker 4: the family's responsibility to investigate and find out what happened,
Speaker 4: and frankly, it would have been dangerous for them to
Speaker 4: do that. But they just told everything they knew to
Speaker 4: the people who were responsible for fighting out and it
Speaker 4: got explained away time after time.
Speaker 6: You finally got a decision from my medical examiner to
Speaker 6: say that the original verdict was asphyxiation. In the last
Speaker 6: part of his in the second autopsy, what does he
Speaker 6: say about homicide being ruled out or ruled in?
Speaker 4: Could not rule it out?
Speaker 6: Incredible.
Speaker 4: Reverend David Rogers called him. I was sitting in the
Speaker 4: room and he said, what about these things in the
Speaker 4: autopsy that were not in the other autopsy. Joe Glasgow
Speaker 4: went to West Virginia during the grand jury recess and
Speaker 4: went with the state police officer to make sure the
Speaker 4: family's interests were represented, and he wrote an addendum to
Speaker 4: his second autopsy, and the addendum the ending sentence in
Speaker 4: it is I cannot rule out the possibility of homicide absolutely.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much David Parish for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about this incredible book. Losing John.
Speaker 6: We couldn't discuss all of the incredible things and events
Speaker 6: and characters that are in this book. But Losing John,
Speaker 6: a teen's tragic death, a police cover up, a communities
Speaker 6: fight for justice. Thank you so much, David Parish. This
Speaker 6: is a Kensington Press release. Is there a Facebook page
Speaker 6: for this book or can they just get it wherever
Speaker 6: they get their books on Amazon and everywhere else it's available.
Speaker 4: It was released yesterday and it's available where from books
Speaker 4: or sold.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. Go ahead, thank you.
Speaker 4: I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. Dan.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Congratulations on this and the release
Speaker 6: of this book. Losing John, a teen's tragic death, a
Speaker 6: police cover up, a community's fight for justice. Thank you
Speaker 6: very much, David Parish. Good night, Thank you,