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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 2: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime
Speaker 2: History and the authors that have written about them. Victoria
Speaker 2: Redstell is a glamorous model, actress, filmmaker, and investigative journalist
Speaker 2: who has spent years visiting high security prisons and interviewing
Speaker 2: sadistic killers like Gary Ray Boles and Keith Hunter Jefferson,
Speaker 2: the Happy Face Killer. These hardened killers have opened up
Speaker 2: to her in a way that they would never do
Speaker 2: to psychiatrists, prosecutors, or other authority figures, and have as
Speaker 2: a result, revealed terrifying chapters of their lives that might
Speaker 2: otherwise have stayed hidden forever. In this chilling book, she
Speaker 2: shares every detail and insight, bringing the reader up close
Speaker 2: and very personal with some of the most dangerous and
Speaker 2: disturbed serial killers that the world has ever seen. The
Speaker 2: book work profiled this evening is serial Killers up Close
Speaker 2: and very Personal, My Death Row Interviews with the most
Speaker 2: dangerous men on the planet with my special guest journalists
Speaker 2: and act journalist and author Victoria Redstell. Welcome to the
Speaker 2: program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Victoria Redstell, thank.
Speaker 4: You for having me, Dan, Thanks so much.
Speaker 2: It's a big thrill, is very very interesting book. Let's
Speaker 2: get right to probably the question that most people have
Speaker 2: asked you or probably been asked as many times, and
Speaker 2: I think our audience is interested as well, especially with
Speaker 2: your background, why were you interested in writing this book?
Speaker 2: And moreover, why were you, with your background, interested in
Speaker 2: interviewing some of the most dangerous men on the planet,
Speaker 2: serial killers, convicted psychopathic killers. Why were you interested in
Speaker 2: this endeavor?
Speaker 4: Well, I would say when I was eleven years old
Speaker 4: in England, we had very close family friends that were
Speaker 4: actually murdered by mass murderer and another family was also murdered,
Speaker 4: a family that I didn't know. This has discussed very
Speaker 4: profound effect on my psyche at such a young formative
Speaker 4: age that it shocked me, It upset me, it toward
Speaker 4: my heart and my emotions when I was eleven. From
Speaker 4: then I started to study books and use paper articles
Speaker 4: and magazines and shows, and I found the most bizarline
Speaker 4: set in the world is that all a mass murderer,
Speaker 4: a serial killer. And I found it to be horrible
Speaker 4: but also very interesting because it's so hard to understand.
Speaker 2: Right now, how did it? How did for this book itself?
Speaker 2: You've picked five notorious maybe not completely well known, but
Speaker 2: very notorious killers. What is there was a criteria for
Speaker 2: the book in terms of the people you chose. I
Speaker 2: mean you went in and interviewed these people. So but
Speaker 2: tell us how you came to interview these five people,
Speaker 2: or pick these five people, or have these five men
Speaker 2: cooperate with you. How did it come about for these
Speaker 2: five subjects of your book?
Speaker 4: Well, I probably started out with about twenty people that
Speaker 4: I'd read about, heard about, or seen on television or
Speaker 4: whatever it was. I studied them on the internet and
Speaker 4: if they have killed at least three people with downtime
Speaker 4: in between, or convicted of that, that makes them a
Speaker 4: serial killer. And I wanted to focus my first book
Speaker 4: or my main book that I was doing on my
Speaker 4: own on serial killers, not mass murderers, and nothing else.
Speaker 4: So I wrote to about twenty, so you have to
Speaker 4: understand it's a numbers game. Not everyone responded. Maybe about
Speaker 4: eight responded, and then a few I got bored of
Speaker 4: or I fell by the wayside. They're saying they're innocent.
Speaker 4: There's some that interested me more and some that didn't.
Speaker 4: And what it really is, it was all down to
Speaker 4: can I fly out to that state, can I get
Speaker 4: them on camera? Can I go on their visiting list?
Speaker 4: What's the protocol with that particular death row or prison?
Speaker 4: And it was basically the five people I chose, which
Speaker 4: took me just over a year to fill that up,
Speaker 4: and then I wrote a book. And I also I've
Speaker 4: got them all long camera, so I've also got hard
Speaker 4: drives filled with exclusive interviews or possible future television shows.
Speaker 4: So that's why I chose those five. But really I
Speaker 4: probably chose about twenty.
Speaker 2: Incredible. Now, just before we start, name the five subjects,
Speaker 2: and then we'll go probably in ch chronological order, just
Speaker 2: like your book, because there's probably good reason, and there
Speaker 2: is good reason why you start with who you start with.
Speaker 2: So tell us the five subjects, introduce the five subjects
Speaker 2: that are in your book.
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll try so many of these serial killers because
Speaker 4: I'm writing a current book as well. So with the
Speaker 4: book that you're specifically talking about, it would be Wayne
Speaker 4: adam Ford, Keith Under Jefferson's, Gary Ray Bowles, Bobby Joe Long,
Speaker 4: and Robin Gex And yes there is an order. And
Speaker 4: the reason why Wayne adam Ford is number one is
Speaker 4: because he's actually the very first serial killer that I
Speaker 4: ever met in the flesh, and he was somebody I
Speaker 4: wanted to create a documentary on. I found him to
Speaker 4: be highly interesting because he had a conscience enough to
Speaker 4: turn himself in from remorse, and that to me, I'd
Speaker 4: never heard of it all my studies, all my life.
Speaker 4: So I found his story not only very redeeming and
Speaker 4: him as a person redeeming, but also there was a
Speaker 4: victim that never was identified. So with those two main
Speaker 4: bullet points of this person's makeup and story, I thought
Speaker 4: I cannot just create a book on him. I can
Speaker 4: actually go out there and create TV documentary And that
Speaker 4: was my original plan, and there was a lot of
Speaker 4: restrictions with the Sam Beernardino jail, not allowing Camerton, and
Speaker 4: then him go to death row again not allowing Camerton.
Speaker 4: So I had my moments in the courtroom. I spoke
Speaker 4: to him every day on the telephone, and I built
Speaker 4: up footage enough where I could compile. I thought to
Speaker 4: make a documentary that didn't quite work out, so instead
Speaker 4: he became chapter number one of my book.
Speaker 2: Well let's lose that as an introduction to Wade adam
Speaker 2: Ford and tell us about this. This is an incredible case,
Speaker 2: incredible killer. Tell us about Wade atam Ford, and especially
Speaker 2: tell us how your correspondents start with that, How you
Speaker 2: began corresponding, What was the tone of your course, your
Speaker 2: initial correspondence to him to try to convince him that
Speaker 2: you were a journalist and it was in his interest
Speaker 2: to be able to speak to you and that he
Speaker 2: could trust you. How did you go about doing that?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 7: I actually.
Speaker 4: Went after waiting forward because he was the only serial
Speaker 4: killer in the vicinity of La southern California.
Speaker 7: That I could actually meet.
Speaker 4: Because there's so many few people in California that are
Speaker 4: usually all on death row or life in prison. I
Speaker 4: wanted to start in the county or in a surrounding
Speaker 4: County where I lived. I wanted him to trust me,
Speaker 4: but I didn't want to give him my name because
Speaker 4: I didn't want myself to go on camera. I wanted
Speaker 4: to be behind the camera for the first time in
Speaker 4: my life. I wanted the serial killer to think my
Speaker 4: last name was Smith. I went by a fake name
Speaker 4: called Claire Smith, and I wanted to just win him over,
Speaker 4: win his trust with just him looking in my eyes
Speaker 4: and trusting me. But that didn't work because he didn't
Speaker 4: trust me initially, and he got very cross that I
Speaker 4: would not give him my last name, and I was
Speaker 4: certainly not about to give him my last name nor anybody,
Speaker 4: so when I wanted when I met with him in
Speaker 4: the jail, I did tell the deputy, I'd like to
Speaker 4: go on a tour of the jail, which is an
Speaker 4: area I went to. You're not allowed to go as
Speaker 4: a civilian or even anyone touring that jail cannot go
Speaker 4: to a certain unit because it's administrative segregated inmates highly dangerous,
Speaker 4: and they're kept away from all other inmates. So any
Speaker 4: other unit I cout I could have gone to, but
Speaker 4: not that one. I convinced the deputy because it was
Speaker 4: a Sunday, nobody was around in authority. Please let me in.
Speaker 4: I just want to meet Wayne Adam Ford. I did
Speaker 4: push the limits, push the envelope, say what you will.
Speaker 4: I'm a journalist. You know you've got to push those
Speaker 4: doors down. And I met with this man and I said,
Speaker 4: in my innocent way, I had no makeup on and
Speaker 4: my jacket was done up to my chin. I said,
Speaker 4: you know, mister Ford, would it be in a fake
Speaker 4: American accent? Mister Ford? Would it be possible for me
Speaker 4: to write a story about you? And he said, only
Speaker 4: if you don't officialize me. I said no, no, no,
Speaker 4: mister Ford, I won't. And he said, well, what's your name?
Speaker 4: My name is Claire, my last name is Smith. And
Speaker 4: he's looking at me like you're right. And from then
Speaker 4: on he was determined to find out my last name.
Speaker 4: And I never gave it up. And I was sitting
Speaker 4: in the courtroom every day. The media wanted to know
Speaker 4: my last name. The defense was suspicious it wasn't no
Speaker 4: last name. They went jailed to find out my last name,
Speaker 4: but I kind of secretly went in on my middle name.
Speaker 4: But I did not want my last name out. But
Speaker 4: then when I was put on the stand in his trial.
Speaker 4: In the penalty phase, I had to state my name
Speaker 4: for the jury. And then of course all the papers
Speaker 4: got hold of the fact that you know, I do
Speaker 4: modeling as well and hosting and on TV, and then
Speaker 4: scandal broke out across the world, and then they made
Speaker 4: up a romance story between me and the serial color,
Speaker 4: which is so far from the truth.
Speaker 2: Is well, yeah, so was your first daste of the
Speaker 2: media backlash or yeah, it's not even a backlash, doesn't
Speaker 2: even make sense, but.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the model in the seral Killer. I mean, I
Speaker 4: can understand for ratings or for you know, getting me
Speaker 4: people to buy the paper, and but I mean they
Speaker 4: really rate me through the cold, and it caused a
Speaker 4: lot of problems for companies I represent, like Lamborghini and
Speaker 4: Ralph Laurence Hughes and all these companies they put they
Speaker 4: couldn't have me associated with their car, or with their shoes,
Speaker 4: or with Harley Davidson. And I was dropped by a
Speaker 4: number of company because now I'm associated with a cerial color,
Speaker 4: which then makes LAMBORGINI associated with a serial color. So
Speaker 4: it was absolute hell, and I all I wanted was
Speaker 4: to stay behind the scenes go buy a different name
Speaker 4: and not even go on camera. So that was my
Speaker 4: whole point. And then, of course, because I was going
Speaker 4: to do this whole show with the documentary, people said no,
Speaker 4: add that to the story. That's what documentaries are. It's
Speaker 4: saying the truth. It's saying the hell you went through.
Speaker 4: So I did, and I exposed it. And this is
Speaker 4: why I've put myself, my personality, and my life into
Speaker 4: the book is I want to connect with people from
Speaker 4: all walks of life so they can see that I'm
Speaker 4: not oh, going in and asking a bite of questions
Speaker 4: to a serial color. I wanted to know what hell
Speaker 4: I went through to get there, and the how I
Speaker 4: went through during the process. And here I am, you
Speaker 4: know the world. Here I am for you to pick
Speaker 4: out if you want. I'm mostly going to tell you
Speaker 4: a story and hopefully you can connect enough to steal
Speaker 4: that you were right there with me.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean this is interesting what you're saying. This
Speaker 2: is normally not the peruse of journalists. Journalists sometimes the
Speaker 2: Ten Trials, often the Ten Trials, but very seldom interview
Speaker 2: the subjects of their books. And you are doing You're
Speaker 2: going over and beyond that with this. Now, with Wayne
Speaker 2: adam Ford. Let's get back to Let's get to the
Speaker 2: crimes of Wayne adam Ford and how he came to
Speaker 2: the attention of the police.
Speaker 4: Well, he was never a suspect, that is the whole point.
Speaker 4: He had to turn himself in because they weren't looking
Speaker 4: for him. And he has got tart him. He's not
Speaker 4: schizophrenic or any of that, but there's a part of
Speaker 4: him that's got such a strong conscious that he knew
Speaker 4: what he was doing was that wrong. Everything he was
Speaker 4: doing was wrong. So he took himself out into the
Speaker 4: woods so he didn't see any more people that he
Speaker 4: wanted to kill. And he went out into the woods
Speaker 4: for days on end and tried to stop this feeling,
Speaker 4: this overwhelming feeling to murder. We don't know what that's
Speaker 4: like being normal people. Let's hope we don't. But we
Speaker 4: don't know what that overwhelming sensation is. But because of
Speaker 4: his childhood, because the belieful combination, the leathful cocktail of abuse,
Speaker 4: of a neglect, of abandonment, of a brain injury at
Speaker 4: the age of seventeen, all these things get together in
Speaker 4: someone's head and their brain and a matap. But later
Speaker 4: one in life something small or beat could happen, and
Speaker 4: books you become a math murderer, or a serial killer
Speaker 4: or a crime of passion killer. And that was weighing
Speaker 4: Ford's leathful cocktail. But the other side of it is
Speaker 4: he did not want attention. He did not want the
Speaker 4: media to know him as any great name, or make
Speaker 4: up a name on him, or taunt the cops. He
Speaker 4: did not want to even keep killing. And this is
Speaker 4: why he did it. So this is why he is
Speaker 4: more fascinating than any serial killer I've ever met so far.
Speaker 4: Hence he is the chapter number one of my book.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, now, how did he come to the police's attention?
Speaker 2: What did he What evidence did he bring into the
Speaker 2: police station so that he really didn't have to say
Speaker 2: too much.
Speaker 4: He bought in a woman's severed breast into the police
Speaker 4: station in a zitlog bag and took that out of
Speaker 4: his pocket and put it on the desk. That was
Speaker 4: enough to say, I'm obviously not here for robbing a
Speaker 4: liquor store. I have obviously killed human beings. There's no
Speaker 4: one I'm not a doctor, you know, I don't do
Speaker 4: breast enhancement surgery. I am obviously clearly in army surface
Speaker 4: outfit which he was out of his mind, but I'm
Speaker 4: very calmly placed it on the table with his brother
Speaker 4: by his side, and his brother did not know what
Speaker 4: he'd actually done. So his brother probably feels guilty for
Speaker 4: something that he didn't do. But Wanne Ford's intention was
Speaker 4: to turn himself in and to be with the man
Speaker 4: he loved on his last day, which is his brother.
Speaker 4: And all he could ever tell his brother was I've
Speaker 4: hurt people, and I know that Rodney kept saying, well,
Speaker 4: how bad? How bad? And even Rodney, his brother, did
Speaker 4: not know he had that breast in his pocket until
Speaker 4: they were in the chair station and it was placed
Speaker 4: on the table.
Speaker 2: Now what in terms of the confessions, how was he
Speaker 2: eager to give those confessions up? Or how fast did
Speaker 2: did the confessions come under what circumstances?
Speaker 4: Well, the confessions were never as clear as he would
Speaker 4: expect a serial feller to confess. Who is now in
Speaker 4: police custody. So what it was was he kept going
Speaker 4: on and on saying, I've just hurt people, has hurt peopil,
Speaker 4: I've just hurt so many pupils. He knows never and
Speaker 4: I have all his belongings so I've seen all the
Speaker 4: t transcript and there wasn't a time where he said
Speaker 4: I killed this amount of people. He just can only
Speaker 4: say the word hers. And actually a lot of serial
Speaker 4: killers who speaking the third person, they're not in things,
Speaker 4: but they'll say the head was buried there, or that
Speaker 4: person was cut into fifty five pieces, or stabbed thirty
Speaker 4: eight times. And I used to stay the way in
Speaker 4: hololize you stabbed said thirty eight times, and it's like,
Speaker 4: all right, in up already she was stabbed thirty eight times,
Speaker 4: and I've no, no, no, I want to hear you say it.
Speaker 4: Oh no, you stabbed past thirty eight times? Why? And
Speaker 4: this is where I'm different to a reporter or a
Speaker 4: journalist or a car because I am not afraid to
Speaker 4: push these guys to their limits, because they are human
Speaker 4: like that, and that's what gets the story out. I
Speaker 4: get them use my language, a bit pissed off with me,
Speaker 4: I get them worked up, I get them wanting to
Speaker 4: hang up on this, and then I saw them out.
Speaker 4: I mean, some of these guys are like kids, but
Speaker 4: you've got to get a story. And I'm not going
Speaker 4: to sit back and let these guys get away with
Speaker 4: murder with me. He's the point. But I'm not going
Speaker 4: to let them say, oh, I hurt people. I mean,
Speaker 4: I understand he said at the beginning, but I'm not
Speaker 4: going to waste my time hearing at zero killer hurt people.
Speaker 4: He took four innocent lives and he needs to account
Speaker 4: for that. And he's got the conscience, he's got it
Speaker 4: on like a lot of serial killers to say it
Speaker 4: for God's sake. And that's where I've got worked out
Speaker 4: with each and every one of these people who's been
Speaker 4: convicted of films.
Speaker 2: For our audience, that people that don't know about Wayne
Speaker 2: adam Ford, who haven't heard about him, in fact, people
Speaker 2: that listen to the show. Caitlin Rother, a guest on
Speaker 2: the program two or three times now, has written a
Speaker 2: book called Body Parts about Wayne adam Ford. But what
Speaker 2: I found interesting is when another author talks about Wayne
Speaker 2: adam Ford, it sheds all kinds of light on the
Speaker 2: character that I didn't know, even though I had read
Speaker 2: that entire book Body Parts. Now, what I found interesting
Speaker 2: was some of the things, how one of the body
Speaker 2: If you don't mind giving this up, because this is
Speaker 2: very very unique. I mean, for all the books I've
Speaker 2: read this is a unique aspect. There was body parts
Speaker 2: missing from one of the one of the corpses was
Speaker 2: found they couldn't identify because no arms, no legs, no head,
Speaker 2: But there was a couple other interesting things that were
Speaker 2: also missing. Tell us what was also missing from one
Speaker 2: of those bodies.
Speaker 4: Well, the mound in between a woman's legs is missing
Speaker 4: and both breasts is missing. Yeah, is that what you're faring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I've never heard of that extent of mutilation.
Speaker 2: And I mean there are a few killers that are
Speaker 2: notorious for that. Uh and and some of the other
Speaker 2: aspects of Wayne Adam for too. That that they found
Speaker 2: and you found was something about cooking body parts. Tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about that as well. That was
Speaker 2: found out.
Speaker 4: Well, he was left with a body that he had
Speaker 4: its men lists for the reason to get rid of it.
Speaker 4: And this was the first person he killed, which is
Speaker 4: why the lady was not identified. What happened was he
Speaker 4: did cut the head off and put it in the
Speaker 4: fridge and then went to work the next day. But
Speaker 4: he strained the blood out of the body in the
Speaker 4: battu put the head in the fridge, but he also
Speaker 4: cut the breast off to render them. I hope this
Speaker 4: came out of the trial, because I mean, anyway, he
Speaker 4: put them to make them smaller in the oven, and
Speaker 4: then he drained the fat into a coffee can. The
Speaker 4: mounds between the woman's legs he put in a saucepan.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that was really as far as
Speaker 4: I want to go with that one. I mean, it's
Speaker 4: quite shocking. I think a lot of it is because
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it if if it's terrible
Speaker 4: to say, but it's just intrigue, you've got it in
Speaker 4: front of you. You've got to get rid of it.
Speaker 4: What does one do? So making my aunt to rather
Speaker 4: vague on this one, I believe that that could have
Speaker 4: been a lot of part of it intrigue and also
Speaker 4: to make the person a little bit smaller.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you think there was some interest in anatomy
Speaker 2: though certainly I.
Speaker 4: Think there was an interest in the anatomy.
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Speaker 4: Yes, because it was right there. But he found the
Speaker 4: whole situation so grotestfully far fetched and horrific of what
Speaker 4: he'd done and what he was left with that if
Speaker 4: you noticed, he didn't dismember anyone again until the last
Speaker 4: one went to moove the breast, but he didn't dismember anything,
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think he learned his lesson on the
Speaker 4: first but obviously he didn't learn his next lesson. Well, enough.
Speaker 2: No, Is it possible for you to read just a
Speaker 2: little bit of correspondence that you had with Wayne that
Speaker 2: you include in your book, just for our audience to
Speaker 2: get a real example of what is offered.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I would love to do that if you'd
Speaker 4: tell me what page to turn to, and I will.
Speaker 4: But let me just go back a second if I could.
Speaker 4: To Kaitlin Rosa. She was a woman in a trial
Speaker 4: that did her best to get an interview with Wayne Ford,
Speaker 4: and Wayne Ford refused her. I wanted to help her
Speaker 4: as much as I could, but because she felt that
Speaker 4: I was stalking her interview and Wayne, she was very
Speaker 4: vindictive and made something up about me in that book.
Speaker 4: I must say it was settled out of course. It
Speaker 4: was defaming me and it was not true, and it
Speaker 4: was proven to not be true because something was written
Speaker 4: by another person pretending to be me, and that person
Speaker 4: wanted a response from Wayne, so she wrote a love
Speaker 4: note that love Nope, never came from me. But poor
Speaker 4: Katon Rossa didn't know that, and she had one way
Speaker 4: to slam me in her book because she thought I
Speaker 4: withheld Wayne from talking to her, which I didn't, and
Speaker 4: she slammed me. But she was proven wrong because it
Speaker 4: was settled out of court financially. So if you read
Speaker 4: that pliant book, it is so not true.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, I really do not remember reading
Speaker 2: that aspect of the book at all, so it didn't
Speaker 2: resonate with me. I think maybe it's not that I
Speaker 2: skipped through books, but it certainly didn't register with me
Speaker 2: that aspect of it. So I think, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think she's a very good right tress. She's written
Speaker 4: some lovely books which I've read, but I don't think
Speaker 4: she's ever met a serial killer. But she writes books
Speaker 4: on other people too, and I find them very interesting.
Speaker 4: She's a good author, so I'm going to give her
Speaker 4: respect there, which just that one little paragraphs you wrote
Speaker 4: I didn't appreciate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't want to ever slag any
Speaker 2: true crime authors because they have their point of view,
Speaker 2: and if they get close to a subject, they have
Speaker 2: a certain viewpoint on the offender. It's themselves. But what
Speaker 2: I find is that I have of the camp from
Speaker 2: my experience, my research, and my own experience interviewing someone
Speaker 2: for a true crime book that I considered to be
Speaker 2: a serial killer, is that I just don't, and I
Speaker 2: think we can talk about this a little bit later.
Speaker 2: I don't side with the psychiatrist, let's put.
Speaker 4: It that way.
Speaker 2: I just really, I really don't because I think that
Speaker 2: if under the right circumstance, and again, lots of psychiatrists
Speaker 2: are just paid well to give a certain viewpoint. And
Speaker 2: I think that the more psychiatry has a place in
Speaker 2: the courtroom, the more you're going to have, I think controversial.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to damage the process itself by
Speaker 2: having psychiatry have too big a role in the courtroom itself.
Speaker 4: Oh that's a good point. I never spose to that.
Speaker 4: One very interesting point.
Speaker 2: You don't see it in America, and I don't know
Speaker 2: about England, your home, but I know in Canada it's
Speaker 2: a different thing. But again, people have heard my opinion
Speaker 2: on this, but this is for a different time. But
Speaker 2: it's definitely I can see that in America that there's
Speaker 2: a very hesitation to take very many people seriously in
Speaker 2: terms of insane and then not responsible for their crimes.
Speaker 2: It seems that regardless of whether the person's insane, it
Speaker 2: comes down to the decision that they knew what the
Speaker 2: difference between right and wrong and that's the end of it.
Speaker 2: So that's the end of the argument.
Speaker 4: I've started agreement with you. I could call I am
Speaker 4: Oh you are voiceing exactly what I'd like to So, yes,
Speaker 4: I agree with you there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit later once
Speaker 2: we go through this, and then we'll give reasons why
Speaker 2: we both think like that. And certainly i'd like to
Speaker 2: hear what has shaped your opinions on that. But I'm
Speaker 2: certainly interviewing serial killers surely will have some effect. Now
Speaker 2: let's talk about the next Let's talk about Happy Face Killer,
Speaker 2: because a lot of people, a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: know about him, and how I came to learn about
Speaker 2: the Happy Face Killer. Killer is the Keith Hunter Jessperson.
Speaker 2: A fascinating case and a fascinating killer, one of the
Speaker 2: most fascinating. So I applaud you for me able to
Speaker 2: get to talk to this guy, because the late great
Speaker 2: Jack Olson, one of the best true crime writers of
Speaker 2: all time, really let Jessperson talk in his book I
Speaker 2: The Creation of a serial Killer, and you've got some
Speaker 2: stuff that's just incredible, incredible. So talk about let's talk
Speaker 2: about Keith Hunter Jefferson.
Speaker 4: Yes, I will again a truck driver like Wayne Ford,
Speaker 4: killed prostitutes like Wayne Ford, but the complete opposite type
Speaker 4: of serial killer. To Wayne Ford, he is very, very
Speaker 4: proud of his crime. He enjoyed taunting the cops. He
Speaker 4: enjoyed the process of getting rid of the bodies and
Speaker 4: going to truck stops and talking to cops knowing that's
Speaker 4: a dead woman in his truck. He enjoyed all of
Speaker 4: the game, the aspect patrawling to the victims and then
Speaker 4: the getting rid of the body. But the actual killing
Speaker 4: he found quite distasteful. I find him the most distasteful
Speaker 4: passionate ever met out of all serial killer. He's got
Speaker 4: a sense of humor. But to be proud of killing
Speaker 4: someone who did not ask for it, you know, it's
Speaker 4: just terrific for me. So it was very hard to
Speaker 4: swallow to sit there across from him, seven hours a
Speaker 4: day at a picnic table, day after day after day,
Speaker 4: knowing that he was rushing and just telling me it
Speaker 4: all over again. And I was horrified, But I didn't
Speaker 4: show that on the face. He's a six foot eight man,
Speaker 4: probably three hundred and thirty pounds. Oregon State Penitentiary. I
Speaker 4: found him interesting because of what I'd read up on him.
Speaker 4: That's why I wrote him a letter. In writing him
Speaker 4: one letter I received probably ten back, terribly arrogant, terribly
Speaker 4: big ego. No brain injury, which is a surprising no sorry,
Speaker 4: no regless in his childhood, a bit of abuse because
Speaker 4: he was teased because he was so tall, not at alcoholic,
Speaker 4: never take drugs, nothing, nothing that would give a reason
Speaker 4: for him to be a typical serial killer. Should I say,
Speaker 4: but a totally distasteful personality. Oh, but I'll say something else.
Speaker 4: I forgot to say. He manipulates that system so badly
Speaker 4: that when he knew I was not going back to Oregon,
Speaker 4: he told me on the phone, I'm coming to La California.
Speaker 4: I said, yes, right, I believe it, mister Justerpan. You
Speaker 4: know I believe it to do.
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 4: Within four months the guy had cost his state nine
Speaker 4: thousand dollars, and he shoved himself out here with this
Speaker 4: pretense that he killed in California and he hadn't. And
Speaker 4: he was used to look at the bodies in the
Speaker 4: photographs until they slept him out here to California and
Speaker 4: put him in the riverside jail. Now, if that is
Speaker 4: not the most master of all manipul manipulating serial klet
Speaker 4: on Earth. I don't know what is.
Speaker 2: He's right up there. The other thing was is that
Speaker 2: anybody that knows the case knows that, and you should
Speaker 2: explain this to the audience. Where the first Happy Face
Speaker 2: Killer came from? Why is he called the happy Face Killer?
Speaker 2: But I found it interesting that I did not know
Speaker 2: your participation in kind of stirring up the muck a
Speaker 2: little bit in terms of the first confessions, and so
Speaker 2: you do an admirable job because that's a story I
Speaker 2: didn't I knew of the two characters, but you shed
Speaker 2: incredible amount of light on these two characters and their
Speaker 2: involvement with the Happy Face Killer. Very very interesting story.
Speaker 2: So please explain that the couple that were convicted and
Speaker 2: how on earth that happened when it was the Keith
Speaker 2: Hunter jesperson, and how he contacted police and why what?
Speaker 4: I will definitely tell you everything, And it was the
Speaker 4: twenty minute story. You remind me of the two people,
Speaker 4: and I'll tell you everything. I got too many serial
Speaker 4: pillars and too many stories and too many you know
Speaker 4: to concentrate on the names.
Speaker 2: But yeah, No, the thing is is that he didn't
Speaker 2: come to the attention of the authorities because the victims
Speaker 2: were the murder was two people came forward and said, hey, listen.
Speaker 2: One other time came forward. So that's what I'm referring to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know what you're finding. When
Speaker 4: I was just asking what the name of the girlfriend
Speaker 4: was because I've just got a mental block right now.
Speaker 4: A boyfriend and girlfriend. Woman of about sixty five, boyfriend
Speaker 4: a lot younger, as an alcoholic. Tranya Bennett was a
Speaker 4: woman of the in the neighborhood. And gosh, this is
Speaker 4: in the early nineties back in Oregon, Martinoma County. And
Speaker 4: she was found to be killed. Okay, she was dead.
Speaker 4: Now the problem is there was some police corruption that
Speaker 4: I cannot validate. But I know for a fact because
Speaker 4: I've got the trial transcripts and the court records and
Speaker 4: all the documentation. What happened was very suspicious, Okay. And
Speaker 4: what happened was he killed Tanya Bennett, and he disposed
Speaker 4: the cart in some heavy brush in Moltinoma County. About
Speaker 4: a week goes by, they went out on the news
Speaker 4: that this person had been killed. And this old lady,
Speaker 4: who has got nothing to do with murder, wanted to
Speaker 4: get rid of her boyfriend, who lived in the house
Speaker 4: and was an alcoholic. Good for thing. It didn't work.
Speaker 4: She called the cops. She said, my boyfriend did it,
Speaker 4: and he said, how will have you know? She said, well,
Speaker 4: I know that my boyfriend did it because of what. Well,
Speaker 4: somehow she must have been given information because the jeans
Speaker 4: where the buttons were were cut out, because Keith Jefferson
Speaker 4: cut the buttons out of Tanya Bennett's trousers when he
Speaker 4: disposed of her. So the only people to know that
Speaker 4: the buttons were cut would have been the killer, Keith Jefferson,
Speaker 4: the real killer, and the cops. So how would this
Speaker 4: lady the name escapes me. How would this lady know
Speaker 4: that the buttons had been removed if she had not
Speaker 4: been told up by the cops. So the cops said
Speaker 4: to this lady, she said, he said, you know, we'll
Speaker 4: come back, you know, because if you find that piece
Speaker 4: of material that was where the genes had the material removed,
Speaker 4: we will then take you seriously. So they came back
Speaker 4: the next day. After she called them up. She said,
Speaker 4: I've got that materials. She gave the cops some material
Speaker 4: and it did not match at the climber. So they said,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry you too. You know obviously you you you
Speaker 4: have not a coloma. Her last name was Proloma, Plansky
Speaker 4: or something. Laverne, Laverne. Her name is Verne. She said,
Speaker 4: you ob if you weren't, pardon me, because this is
Speaker 4: a setup. We don't believe you. But she kept calling
Speaker 4: the cops. She said I know it, and she got frantic.
Speaker 4: She said, I know he killed them. That's because I
Speaker 4: was there. I watched him strangle her and dispose of her. Well,
Speaker 4: now she's admitting to a murder. So now she and
Speaker 4: a boyfriend are locked up. John Tasnowski is the name
Speaker 4: of her Boyfriend's just come to me and they lost
Speaker 4: him botha Now, Keith Justerson, minding his own bus, is
Speaker 4: in a truck stop. He sees it in the paper
Speaker 4: two people have been arrested for the murder of Chinya Bennett.
Speaker 4: So he sits there in the rest stop, in the
Speaker 4: bathroom and he put a happy face saying I'm the
Speaker 4: real killer of Tanya Bennett and I'm still out here too.
Speaker 4: He went on to kill seven more people after that.
Speaker 4: I think he killed eight. He killed seven more people
Speaker 4: because re enforcement wanted to rush to close the case
Speaker 4: and lock up the wrong people. Now that is what
Speaker 4: I think could have happened, but that's pretty much fixed
Speaker 4: with what I've seen documented. When years go by and
Speaker 4: Keith Justicson, they were hot on his tail because he
Speaker 4: did slip up on writing somebody his name on a
Speaker 4: pink slip of a car. He then says, by the way,
Speaker 4: I killed Tanya Bennett. Now this is nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 4: versily well nine bench four, my dads might be wrong.
Speaker 4: So the cop said, no, no, no, no, you did not
Speaker 4: kill Tanya Bennett. You may have killed d seven, but
Speaker 4: you didn't kill Tanya Bennett. We've got two people locked up. Well,
Speaker 4: Keith Justicson was not going to let someone else take
Speaker 4: his crime, so he shouted about it and he said, no,
Speaker 4: I killed Tanya Bennett. And the crops are like, well, look,
Speaker 4: whatever you do, you didn't kill Parania Bennett. We'll do
Speaker 4: what you say. You said, have all these bodies that
Speaker 4: you killed, but you didn't kill Tanya Bennett. It got
Speaker 4: to the point where he wanted to prove it so
Speaker 4: badly that he remembered where he threw the driving license
Speaker 4: and he's got the man on outside, a very good
Speaker 4: reporter for the Oregonian newspaper called Phil Sanford, and I
Speaker 4: believe he wrote Phil's down for the letter and described
Speaker 4: or some people out on the outside describe whereabouts the
Speaker 4: driving license was found was buried. He told the cops
Speaker 4: it was a different direction. He went out with the
Speaker 4: cops one direction. They couldn't find this driving license, but
Speaker 4: he'd written a letter to someone on the outside, and
Speaker 4: they had a group of scouts, boy scouts find the
Speaker 4: driving license and in walk Peath Justerson's brother holding the
Speaker 4: driving license to Tanya Bennett, saying, my brother did kill
Speaker 4: Tanya Bennett because here's where he threw the driving license.
Speaker 4: So now a Laverne Paplinet and their boyfriend Johnson Snovski
Speaker 4: were released from prison after serving a period of time.
Speaker 4: And did they ever get restitution. No, neither of them
Speaker 4: got restitution. And Laverne Kadillac has now since deceased.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the lawyer I saw a couple of
Speaker 2: years ago. A lawyer said, you know, it was incredible.
Speaker 2: He said, I had to argue as the first time
Speaker 2: I had ever argue for my client of about about
Speaker 2: his guilt. I had to prove he was guilty. It
Speaker 2: was incredible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite shocking. I mean it's close the case.
Speaker 4: I mean, they basically let a serial kill seven more
Speaker 4: people because they didn't do their job that great.
Speaker 7: And believe me, I am.
Speaker 4: Very pro low enforcement. You know, I'm incredibly pro low inforcement.
Speaker 4: But they are the occasional cop that doesn't do the
Speaker 4: best job. And I'm afraid to say whoever that was
Speaker 4: mentioning their names, I don't think they did the best
Speaker 4: job because a serial color went out to kill seven
Speaker 4: more innocent people, and that is no forgiveness there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one thing you've included in your book too. Again,
Speaker 2: it's very, very horrifying the crimes of these people. Keith
Speaker 2: Hunter jesperson. I agree with you that he is the
Speaker 2: most there's people say lack of remorse. It's way beyond that.
Speaker 2: It's callous disregard for humankind. That he really did throw
Speaker 2: out these women like trash. To dispose of one of
Speaker 2: the women, he tied her to the undercarriage of his
Speaker 2: transport and calculated how long it would take and Kay,
Speaker 2: you know, very much like if he were to have
Speaker 2: a deer trapped underneath and literally disposed of this woman
Speaker 2: on the highway, and he thought nothing of it, just
Speaker 2: washed off the remains and figured that no one would
Speaker 2: really regard it as anything but roadkill. And he went
Speaker 2: on his way and spoke very, very candidly and casually
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Angela Sabreeze was probably the most shocking, awful killing
Speaker 4: that I'd ever heard about in my entire life. And yes,
Speaker 4: he went seventeen miles down that freeway, knowing that that
Speaker 4: would be enough time to make her body disappear, however,
Speaker 4: and look like roadkill. However, this girl had got a
Speaker 4: hip operation when she was young, so there was a
Speaker 4: serial number in the pit of metal in her hip,
Speaker 4: and that was what was found. And then that was
Speaker 4: traced back to where she would last and the phone
Speaker 4: call that she'd made to her I think, to her
Speaker 4: boyfriend in Keith Justicson's truck was traced back to Keith
Speaker 4: Justson his calling card, And that's another thing that tied
Speaker 4: him to the crime. And that's what started law enforcement
Speaker 4: looking for him. Was thank god she'd had that hipper operation,
Speaker 4: or she would have never been found.
Speaker 2: You know what, if you could, if you could be
Speaker 2: so kind, page eighty seven. He talks about angela subrieze
Speaker 2: in Nebraska. Would you like to read that?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Where are we? Like? In January ninety five, I'd
Speaker 4: kill angela su breeze in Nebraska, Remember the one I
Speaker 4: dragged under my truck for thirteen miles. She ended up
Speaker 4: looking like a two legged deer. Anyway, I was strained
Speaker 4: from my point. Two months after I killed him, I
Speaker 4: killed Julie Winningham, and a few weeks later, on March
Speaker 4: the twenty fourth, to ninety five, I turned myself in
Speaker 4: for Julie's murder. No, not quite. She didn't turn himself here.
Speaker 4: But first I sent her letter to my brother Brad,
Speaker 4: confessing to eight murders in five years, a letter I
Speaker 4: wish now that I had never written. Arrested in Wilcox's Arizona,
Speaker 4: they flew me back to Vancouver, Washington's Clerk County Jail.
Speaker 4: In jail, I was about to get a cash course,
Speaker 4: a cresh course in proper courtroom procedure, what to do
Speaker 4: and not to do, move my case along. I was
Speaker 4: a fast learner. My brother had gotten a letter and
Speaker 4: I had called him telling him to destroy it. He
Speaker 4: didn't destroy it and gave it to the police.
Speaker 2: Maybe you can read just after that as well, because
Speaker 2: he's talking to his brother.
Speaker 4: This is the handwritten note that Keith Justerson wrote to
Speaker 4: his brother Brad PI Brad, seems like my luck has
Speaker 4: run out. I got into a bad situation and got
Speaker 4: caught up with emotion. I killed a woman in my truck.
Speaker 4: I killed a woman in my truck. It looks like
Speaker 4: I truly am a black sheet. I am sure they
Speaker 4: will kill me for this. I'm sorry I turned out
Speaker 4: this way. I have been a killer for five years
Speaker 4: and I have killed eight people. That's what he wrote
Speaker 4: to his brother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's a happy face killer. Why tell us why?
Speaker 4: Because of the day he killed Chanya Bennett and he's
Speaker 4: waiting to be caught and he wasn't caught. And when
Speaker 4: he read the newspaper in that truck stoff while he
Speaker 4: was in the bathroom, he had the two people had
Speaker 4: been put in prison for China Bennett's murder. So he
Speaker 4: just wanted to say I'm the real killer. I'm still
Speaker 4: out there killing. And he just put a smiley face
Speaker 4: by that. Those words that he put on the on
Speaker 4: the store of the toilet, that's when he became known.
Speaker 4: From that point onwards, he became known as a happy
Speaker 4: face killer. But also when he wrote letters to taunt
Speaker 4: the cops saying the same thing, he put the same
Speaker 4: happy face. So the happy faces were what he wrote
Speaker 4: when he signed off his name, but he didn't sign
Speaker 4: his name. He signed and filled his name. He put
Speaker 4: a happy face.
Speaker 2: Now just for you know again, I'm in Canada, I'm naive,
Speaker 2: and I've I've seen I've heard of this before. Why
Speaker 2: on earth would they allow anyone, regardless of safety or not,
Speaker 2: maybe just for why would they allow you to be
Speaker 2: so up close and personal with a with a monster
Speaker 2: like Keith Hunter Jasperson with nothing to lose?
Speaker 4: I said that to him. I'm going to very upset.
Speaker 4: I actually did say that to him. Because serial killers do.
Speaker 7: Have a victim type.
Speaker 4: They nearly always have a victim type, and the ones
Speaker 4: I've met so far, I wouldn't sit into their victim type.
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of these people would never kill
Speaker 4: a child, would never kill an old lady, never kill
Speaker 4: a young a young man. They'd never kill a girl
Speaker 4: that doesn't sleep around. They kill mainly prostitutes or mainly
Speaker 4: gay men, or mainly homeless people, or child molesters. And
Speaker 4: they don't. They very rarely deviate from the victim type.
Speaker 4: So I wouldn't want to sat in a room with
Speaker 4: no glass with Ted Bundy because he killed college types.
Speaker 4: I mean, I wouldn't want to do something like that.
Speaker 4: But he's one of their very few. So when you
Speaker 4: know the minds of cerial colors and whine in the
Speaker 4: warped state that they're in, you can somehow try to understand.
Speaker 4: Although there is no forgiveness and no right, you try
Speaker 4: to put yourself in their shoes for a moment, you
Speaker 4: can understand that I wouldn't sit in their victim type
Speaker 4: even if there.
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Speaker 5: Were not necessary dally revoid. Where Ever, if I lost
Speaker 5: the terms conditions, eight plus met me on the outside.
Speaker 4: So I mean, you've got to remember, these guys love
Speaker 4: their girlfriends, a lot of them. They love their wife,
Speaker 4: their neighbors, their coworkers, their friends, beautiful girls. They would
Speaker 4: love anybody. They have their own children, they love their
Speaker 4: own animals. So they have any opportunity there to kill
Speaker 4: anybody they want. But for whatever reason, they either hated prostitutes,
Speaker 4: or they hated gay men, or they just thought that
Speaker 4: the world doesn't need them. That's their makeup why they
Speaker 4: did it. It's mental, but that's the point. It's one type.
Speaker 4: So this is why I think they are allowed to
Speaker 4: sit with people and have contact visits. And again, schizophrenic
Speaker 4: people aren't allowed that because they're not. I haven't met
Speaker 4: a schizophrenic serial killer. I haven't met a serial killer
Speaker 4: that doesn't communicate normally, that have had lives with people
Speaker 4: that knew them that said, oh my gosh, it's such
Speaker 4: a shock. We thought he was the nicest guy in town.
Speaker 4: It fits into that demographic, which is why they're graded
Speaker 4: sometimes graded a's what they call it. But they are
Speaker 4: given permission to have contact visits with their visitors. They're
Speaker 4: not taking drugs, they're not passing drugs, they're not in gangs.
Speaker 4: They have a victim type on the outside. They don't
Speaker 4: even have to be urged to kill on the inside,
Speaker 4: not anyone. So that's another reason.
Speaker 2: M hmm.
Speaker 4: If you're fitting John Wayne Gacy when he attacked that boy,
Speaker 4: that's because that boy was John Wayne Gacy's type. You
Speaker 4: remember that John Wayne Gazy killed thirty three boys and
Speaker 4: put them on the floorboards. And there was a boy
Speaker 4: in the outside that wanted to write to John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 4: and he kept writing and kept taunting him, kept flirting
Speaker 4: with him. He got to the close contact level with
Speaker 4: John Wayne Gacy, and John Wayne Gacy attacked him. I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: but that's putting yourself in the lion's mouth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he knew he was being deceived John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 2: and that was not something you wanted to do with
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean deceive or deceive? I mean, am I
Speaker 4: deceiving these serial killers by writing about them?
Speaker 2: I mean no, what I mean I think that that
Speaker 2: I think that the young man I mean Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 2: I mean John Wayne Gacy was homosexual. So if you're
Speaker 2: if you were going to again flirt as a homosexual
Speaker 2: then and and if he doesn't think that that's the case,
Speaker 2: or he doesn't think that the relationship was genuine, that's
Speaker 2: what I mean. I mean, you're not going in and die.
Speaker 2: You're not going in and talking to these killers like
Speaker 2: again potential boyfriend material. I mean, no, that's not what
Speaker 2: you're going that's not the premise you're going in. And
Speaker 2: I know what you mean. I corresponded with someone. We
Speaker 2: weren't pen pals.
Speaker 4: You know, Oh you are pen pals with somebody.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, No, I was not pen pals. So I
Speaker 2: understand if the relationship when you go in to see
Speaker 2: Keith Hunter, Jefferson, tell us what the premise was. Why
Speaker 2: did he agree to be interviewed by you?
Speaker 4: Because he truly believed and I truly intended to expose
Speaker 4: the case of Laverne Kavlnik and John Sisnowski and how
Speaker 4: these two discent people will put in prison for a
Speaker 4: crime that he committed and he helped and aided in
Speaker 4: getting them out, and he wanted me to expose that,
Speaker 4: and I honestly promised him I would and I don't
Speaker 4: make promises that I don't keep. I promised him I'll
Speaker 4: do that, but I obviously wanted to know a bit
Speaker 4: more about what I was focused on. It is why
Speaker 4: and how and what went wrong to make you kill
Speaker 4: all these people. So that was my focus and that
Speaker 4: was his focus, and I said, I will do my best,
Speaker 4: and I got both out in my book. And I
Speaker 4: planned also to do a documentary on the situation where
Speaker 4: the crops didn't quite they went on the up and up.
Speaker 4: I wanted to do a documentary to sell a show
Speaker 4: on that subject, where justice went hopelessly wrong. I wrote
Speaker 4: a treatment called Justice Gone Wrong. But what happened was
Speaker 4: I suddenly get a letter saying I'm no longer allowed
Speaker 4: to go to the jail, which is why I told Keith,
Speaker 4: I'm not coming back to Oregon, and he said, fine,
Speaker 4: I'm going to get myself to California. So that's how
Speaker 4: it happened. I did say what I promised, but they
Speaker 4: record the phone line and they knew that I wanted
Speaker 4: to expose their Dishonesty is really the word.
Speaker 2: A lot of these serial kills though too. If you
Speaker 2: notice they're all fighting for in you know, against Injustice. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: they are serial killers. Seems kind of ironic.
Speaker 4: Well, I spoke to Wayne Ford on the phone yesterday
Speaker 4: and he's very happy that the death penalty is in place,
Speaker 4: believe it or not. And I said, cold on a second,
Speaker 4: you are a serial killer sitting on death row happy
Speaker 4: that the death penalty is in place because in California,
Speaker 4: with the election, it was about to be abolished. I said,
Speaker 4: why will you tell me? He says, well, I wasn't
Speaker 4: given a fair trial the first time, and I'm now
Speaker 4: going to have another trial to explain that I've got
Speaker 4: a head injury and all that, and we get treated
Speaker 4: better and I'm less likely to be killed where I'm
Speaker 4: not here on death row by another inmate. Because if
Speaker 4: you remember, Jeffrey Dahmer got killed in the nineties with
Speaker 4: a toilet brush because he got life in prison without parole. Now,
Speaker 4: if Jeffrey Dahmer had got the death penalty, he would
Speaker 4: have been safer, more protective. It's totally angonic. It massed
Speaker 4: a sense, but I thought i'd share that with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting. Now let's talk about Gary ray Balls
Speaker 2: because I was not aware of this serial killer. So
Speaker 2: tell us about Gary ray balls and your interaction with him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my interaction with Gary was again, he actually approached me.
Speaker 4: He's the first serial kaer to approach me. First he
Speaker 4: saw me on Montell Williams Wantelle Williams Show, and he
Speaker 4: wrote me a letter and he said he'd likes someone
Speaker 4: to write a book on him. So I said, I
Speaker 4: will be happy to try to find someone to write
Speaker 4: a book. But I don't write books. I actually do
Speaker 4: on camera stuff. I like to interview people on camera.
Speaker 4: So I thought, well, maybe one day I'll write a
Speaker 4: book as well, and I went out to Florida, went
Speaker 4: through my background check, hired the camera people, interviewed him
Speaker 4: on camera, and then I also visited him the following
Speaker 4: weekend in the visiting area where we sat down at
Speaker 4: the table from eight am to four pm on both
Speaker 4: Saturday and Sunday. So I did actually start doctor him
Speaker 4: for a book in the visiting room and on camera
Speaker 4: for a potential TV show. When I interviewed him, he
Speaker 4: claimed that he killed six homosexual child ministers. I could
Speaker 4: not believe that he could meet six homosexual child molesters
Speaker 4: in less than a year. It's maybe he met one
Speaker 4: or two. And I was going to get to the
Speaker 4: bottom of it and what I found out, and after
Speaker 4: realizing that he has a screw loose where he seems
Speaker 4: to think that homosexual men have to be child ministers,
Speaker 4: and that is not so far from the troop. It's
Speaker 4: like saying straight men molested little girls, all of them.
Speaker 4: I do believe he meant one man. The first man
Speaker 4: he killed, I forget the name, but he did put
Speaker 4: in a videotape because he was this man's roommates, and
Speaker 4: this VHF tape he put in and saw this guy
Speaker 4: having sex with an eight year old boys. From that
Speaker 4: moment it triggered when he was molested as a child
Speaker 4: by somebody, and he waited for him to come home,
Speaker 4: and he took a big stone and he killed him.
Speaker 4: And from then it was just the messiest serial killer
Speaker 4: that I've ever known. He didn't cover his tracks, he
Speaker 4: left fingerprints. He just kept going from faith to place,
Speaker 4: and he did outsmart the cops. But he's got the
Speaker 4: lowest queue of any serial killer I've ever met.
Speaker 7: But he is the sweetest one as well. I know
Speaker 7: that sounds hard to believe, but he's got a very
Speaker 7: sweet disposition because he was filled up with drugs, which
Speaker 7: drugs and alcohol is just the root of all evil,
Speaker 7: and he was filled up with that and his wires
Speaker 7: were crossed from a very.
Speaker 4: Young age, believing that homosexual men are also child molesters.
Speaker 4: And I told him, after he told me the fifth
Speaker 4: killing and how it happened, I said, for Gary, that
Speaker 4: wasn't a child molester Number two, three, four, five, and six.
Speaker 4: They weren't trial with Leicester's. He said, but they would
Speaker 4: have Waine. I said, how do you know they wasn't then,
Speaker 4: because naw I could tell that I would have been
Speaker 4: a child molester. I said, but you spent ten minutes
Speaker 4: with them when you were hustling to He was a
Speaker 4: hustler and he wanted to give a hand jub to
Speaker 4: some guy for a certain amount of money, and they said,
Speaker 4: I'm not paying you. So that's when he killed them.
Speaker 4: He said, there's nothing to do with him being a
Speaker 4: child monaster. You kill that guy because you were on
Speaker 4: drugs and alcohol and he didn't pay you the correct
Speaker 4: amount of money.
Speaker 7: You killed that guy because he got wrong with you.
Speaker 4: You killed that guy because you just didn't like the
Speaker 4: way he spoke to you. Where on earth could these
Speaker 4: people have been child monasters outside of the first one.
Speaker 4: And he didn't have an answer for me. I said,
Speaker 4: you hate gay men, don't you, Gary? And that was it.
Speaker 4: I mean he he just stumbled. I mean, it's the truth.
Speaker 2: And you have this kind of stuff on camera too.
Speaker 4: I do I have all this on camera? Yeah? Again,
Speaker 4: explosive interviews of all my hard drives waiting for to
Speaker 4: put it with a show. Let's just say so, I've
Speaker 4: got expensive views. Let's they sign to me they're not
Speaker 4: going to interview with anyone else, and they're very loyal.
Speaker 4: There's a loyalty that these guys have had. I've known
Speaker 4: him for about five or the I can guarantee you
Speaker 4: nobody will ever interview with him because he won't interview
Speaker 4: with anyone else but me. That goes for Wayne Ford,
Speaker 4: that goes for quite a few people. You know, you've
Speaker 4: got to give a bit of loyalty to receive it.
Speaker 4: And I always send them a postcard when I go
Speaker 4: to different places. I know that sounds bad, but I
Speaker 4: send them a postcard.
Speaker 7: I don't write long letters, I don't.
Speaker 4: Do any flirting, none of that. But every six eight months,
Speaker 4: if I'm on a convention or doing a traveling. I
Speaker 4: will send a postcard and that's it. I do not
Speaker 4: condone their crimes. I think it's terrific. But to get
Speaker 4: these people to speak, to really open up, which is
Speaker 4: what the world we want to know. How these people
Speaker 4: take You've got to open up a bit of yourself.
Speaker 4: You kind of got to just treat them shaming humans
Speaker 4: because they are. Yeah, and Gary's about to be executed
Speaker 4: probably next year anyway, and he wants me to.
Speaker 7: Go to the execution, so that would be a first.
Speaker 4: Experience of my life. And I would go because again
Speaker 4: four years ago, I made that promise for him, and
Speaker 4: I do keep my promises.
Speaker 2: Wow. Interesting, Yeah, I don't think they'll let you can
Speaker 2: to take the camera in there though.
Speaker 4: No no cameras in the execution cham anywhere in America anywhere.
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Now. Another interesting serial killer is this
Speaker 2: Robert Bobby Joe Joseph Long. So Robert Bobby Joe Long,
Speaker 2: Bobby Joe, tell us about this person. This is a
Speaker 2: very interesting guy. Unlike your last person that you said
Speaker 2: had a very low IQ. This this guy's a lot
Speaker 2: a very interesting guy. Tell us about Robert Bobby Joelong.
Speaker 4: Bobby Long is a very arrogant guy. He loved I
Speaker 4: think two women in his life love and adored them
Speaker 4: because they were these respectable ladies if they waited before
Speaker 4: they slept with him, and he had good relationships with them. However,
Speaker 4: when it became a stripper that he met or a prostitute,
Speaker 4: he would wipe them out like they were just trush.
Speaker 4: And it's horrifically so, and yet he's in denial. He
Speaker 4: claims that it was not him. So really, although he
Speaker 4: sent me numerous letters, he's got really nice handwriting, he's
Speaker 4: not somebody that I could get anywhere with because he's
Speaker 4: in denial of doing anything, so I don't be waste
Speaker 4: my time. But I did bump into him, and I
Speaker 4: mean that I did bump into him in the visiting park.
Speaker 4: They call it the visiting park in Florida Death Row,
Speaker 4: where we're all sitting at tables, not in a cage
Speaker 4: like California Death Row, you sit inside a cage with
Speaker 4: your inmate, but Florida Death Row, you're at tables and
Speaker 4: there's about twenty and there's one lady at the end,
Speaker 4: one officer and that's it. And you've got twenty killers
Speaker 4: with their visitors. Well, because he knew I was visiting
Speaker 4: Gary ray Boles. He dragged his poor mother from another
Speaker 4: state to go there that we can for both days.
Speaker 4: So we ended up in Lying for lunch, and there
Speaker 4: I was with Gary and I said, Gary, you know
Speaker 4: Bobby Bobby, Gary, and they don't like each other. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I know him from the yard. But okay, all right,
Speaker 4: you too obviously don't seem to get along, so let's
Speaker 4: sun that burrito. Anyway, Bobby and I had a chat
Speaker 4: with him. Gary went back and sit down, and then
Speaker 4: I find out that you're not allowed to talk to
Speaker 4: other inmates, but you know, I had a chat with him,
Speaker 4: and then I chatted with his mother and he looked
Speaker 4: very like his mother. And then I went back and
Speaker 4: start with Gary. So yeah, there was a few serial
Speaker 4: coillors in the room that day. I met three of them.
Speaker 4: I forgot the last name of the other one, but
Speaker 4: not a likable character. Know. He asked me to wear
Speaker 4: a blue dress, or do wear a blue dress? I
Speaker 4: wore a red one, just because I do not want
Speaker 4: to be told what to do by a serial color.
Speaker 4: I wore a bright red one, not an ounce of
Speaker 4: blue on it. And he can blue on me with
Speaker 4: my eyes. You know. That's it. So they can tell
Speaker 4: me other people what to do, but they're not going
Speaker 4: to tell me what to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess not. Now, why is Robert Long in
Speaker 2: your Why Why did you deem it necessary to put
Speaker 2: him in your book? You say that he really couldn't
Speaker 2: get any headway with him. Why did you choose to
Speaker 2: include him in the book? Then?
Speaker 4: Ah, because I spoke to a lot of crops surrounding
Speaker 4: his case. I've got some of his child transcripts, and
Speaker 4: he'd written a lot of letters. So I included him
Speaker 4: in my book because I'd met him, I had a
Speaker 4: lot of correspondence with him, and I know people around
Speaker 4: him in law enforcement that would tell me about how
Speaker 4: horrific he was. So I thought I found him an
Speaker 4: interesting guy. But he was one that says he's a
Speaker 4: serou pulat, that he didn't do it at all. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I feel he's very guilty, very guilty.
Speaker 2: What was he convicted of and what was his signature? Like,
Speaker 2: what was some of the horrific aspects of the crimes
Speaker 2: that he did commit?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean he takes it was always strippers and
Speaker 4: prostitute and he would strangle them and he would beat
Speaker 4: them up. I don't think he had a signature. I
Speaker 4: don't think he had a specific signature. He was not nessy.
Speaker 4: He covered his tracks well and again typical. He quite
Speaker 4: had quite a high IQ from what I remember. But
Speaker 4: that's that wasn't the most intriguing of my book. But
Speaker 4: I can totally number five if you want to go there,
Speaker 4: because I do want to go to Robin Ghex because
Speaker 4: I must say I put him in my book because
Speaker 4: he's been convicted and he's been charged with and he's
Speaker 4: accused of being the leader of the Chicago Rivers. I
Speaker 4: sat with this man, I know him well, and not
Speaker 4: just that. I've got all histrial transcripts, and I really
Speaker 4: really do find it very suspicious that things changed. And
Speaker 4: the reason he's there is on the eyewitness testimony of
Speaker 4: one of the prostitutes that survived when her breast were
Speaker 4: being cut off and she in a drunken state, you know,
Speaker 4: meaning she had just come out of surgery to put
Speaker 4: the breast back on. Picked Robin get out of the
Speaker 4: lineup due to the shirt he was wearing, and only that,
Speaker 4: and I believe the real perpetrator who has who is
Speaker 4: the real perpetrator wasn't actually the last one I believe
Speaker 4: to be executed in Illinois before they did away with
Speaker 4: the death penalty. I think that person did it. And
Speaker 4: what happened was Robin Gheky's not a likable man. He's
Speaker 4: not likable. And I can see that he was the
Speaker 4: boss of a number of guys and it was the
Speaker 4: employees he had that committed the crime. But Canada boss
Speaker 4: in now, I am just saying that this is I
Speaker 4: do not believe that robn't Get was the one who
Speaker 4: orchestrated those killings. He had a wife, and I believe
Speaker 4: he was home with his wife. I know his daughter,
Speaker 4: and he was a very good husband and a good father.
Speaker 4: And I'm truly in my heart or what I'm saying
Speaker 4: is I think there is grounds to open up another
Speaker 4: trial and to test his DNA. And he sat there
Speaker 4: for now thirty years with a ninety year sentence waiting
Speaker 4: to get his DNA tested. So he's you know, he's
Speaker 4: not likable because he's pretty angry. He's pretty angry. But
Speaker 4: you know what if I was innocent of the crime
Speaker 4: that I've been convicted of and I am sitting there
Speaker 4: with fifty sixty seventy more years ago, I'd be pretty
Speaker 4: angry too. So my point is I would like to
Speaker 4: find a way to get the DNA tested, but they
Speaker 4: don't want to do it because too many people say
Speaker 4: they're innocent when they're not.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 4: I've sat with that guy for five straight days, hours
Speaker 4: and hours an hour again at a table, no glass,
Speaker 4: no cage, no nothing, and I firmly believed that there's
Speaker 4: a lot of suspicion around him as well. Maybe he
Speaker 4: did not have anything to do with it. So that's
Speaker 4: what I wanted to say on that one. It's quite important.
Speaker 2: What was the Chicago for our audience and myself, what
Speaker 2: was the Chicago rippers? What was the crime? Referring to
Speaker 2: tell us about the details of the crime.
Speaker 4: In the early eighties, there were four men going around
Speaker 4: killing prostitutes in the Chicago area. Their signature was they
Speaker 4: were cutting off both breasts or one breast when they
Speaker 4: were left for dead. Well, most of these ladies died.
Speaker 4: One survived, Beverly Washington. I have tried to track it down,
Speaker 4: and obviously he cannot because she has since died. I
Speaker 4: found out through law enforcement she has passed away, but
Speaker 4: years later and that's what. There were two brothers involved
Speaker 4: that worked for Robin Ghek, So of course the two
Speaker 4: brothers are on each other side. One was executed for
Speaker 4: the crime. One is in jail and I don't know
Speaker 4: if they received a plea deal, but he is due
Speaker 4: to be released in the next five to ten years
Speaker 4: of being part of the Ripper Crew. They called them
Speaker 4: the Chicago Ripper Crew, a group.
Speaker 7: Of serial killers, and they say the alleged leader of
Speaker 7: the pack was Robin Ghekt, and I.
Speaker 4: Do not believe that that is the case.
Speaker 2: Now, this case has affected you in as far as
Speaker 2: that you are dedicating a fair amount of your time
Speaker 2: and focus on the wrongly convicted. Maybe just explain that
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's where most of my focus is right now,
Speaker 4: is on the wrongly convicted. Inspired by a man in
Speaker 4: Oklahoma death row who I met in twenty ten by
Speaker 4: the name of Jeffrey David Matthews, I will put my
Speaker 4: name to the fact that I know he was innocent. Man,
Speaker 4: I know one, not ninety nine percent. This is where
Speaker 4: I'll put everything on this. I did get help in
Speaker 4: getting him three days of execution. I proved that this
Speaker 4: person had no motive to kill his uncle. I proved
Speaker 4: who probably did. And I also found the arresting officer
Speaker 4: from seventeen years before who went on camera for me
Speaker 4: saying about the corruption in Oklahoma at the time. And
Speaker 4: I sent this to the governor, the Lieutenant governor, the ACLU,
Speaker 4: the kevil Lemancy Board, the Pardon and Parole Board, and
Speaker 4: I sent it five days before he was scheduled for
Speaker 4: his first execution. Then he received a thirty days day.
Speaker 4: I came up with more evidence within those thirty days.
Speaker 4: Then he got a sixty days stay. I got in
Speaker 4: three stays. I became close friends with his mother. I
Speaker 4: did everything I knew in my powers to come up
Speaker 4: with what the defense hadn't and I did it. And
Speaker 4: I was dealing with a lovely governor called Governor Brad
Speaker 4: Henry Well. In twenty eleven, Jerry, I think the seventh
Speaker 4: a lady justah And took over and she'd seen that
Speaker 4: Jeffrey David Matthews had received three stays of execution, and
Speaker 4: on Channel's eleven's twenty eleven, she executed an instant man.
Speaker 4: And I'm telling you he was innocent.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And this is what has compelled me and inspired me
Speaker 4: to go on to the innocent people in this country today,
Speaker 4: because believe me, there's a lot on death rose and
Speaker 4: there's a lot with life in prison. And if anyone
Speaker 4: is going to find those people, it's going to be me,
Speaker 4: because I'm going to dig deeper than anyone's ever gone before,
Speaker 4: because this is what I do.
Speaker 2: Yes, I applaud you for that. And you know you're
Speaker 2: not the first journalist and author who's come on the
Speaker 2: program to talk about I mean, there are the padd
Speaker 2: O'Connor is has come on a couple of times. He
Speaker 2: has written books about the wrongfully convicted. In fact, he
Speaker 2: introduced me to a gentleman that's on November twenty eighth,
Speaker 2: mister Griffith, and he anyway, not wrongfully convicted, but we're
Speaker 2: talking about the wrongfully convicted and just in general injustice.
Speaker 2: You know, our judicial system is a beloved system. We
Speaker 2: cherish it, we want it to protect us, protect us
Speaker 2: from these monsters. And yet at the same time we
Speaker 2: know of numerous cases and America is rife with this,
Speaker 2: that there's all kinds of students in universities working for nothing,
Speaker 2: for free, dedicating their time and energy to the wrongfully convicted,
Speaker 2: and there's enough cases there and enough information. Of course,
Speaker 2: no one approaches these things frivously. They want to know
Speaker 2: that there is a really good case. And I applaud
Speaker 2: you too. When you read all the trial transcripts, it's
Speaker 2: an incredible the amount of information it's contained therein And
Speaker 2: how many people don't review those transcripts. In fact, all
Speaker 2: the appeals, they wouldn't go through all the transcripts of
Speaker 2: the trial itself. That's not really what the appeal process is.
Speaker 2: So it is a very interesting what you're doing on
Speaker 2: behalf of some of these people that you are firmly
Speaker 2: convinced are innocent.
Speaker 4: Yes, I really do, and thank you for that. That's
Speaker 4: where my heart really, really truly lies. I mean, one
Speaker 4: person executed out of one hundred is one person too many.
Speaker 4: It just cannot happen. And if I'm the one to
Speaker 4: help stop it and make a.
Speaker 7: Big old noise and be a troublemaker and ruffle feathers.
Speaker 4: Yeah I'll do it. I'll do it because it's saving
Speaker 4: someone's life and giving them back to their families, which
Speaker 4: is where it belongs. But I want to fight for
Speaker 4: them to get restitution as well.
Speaker 2: Right now, the thing is this serial killer is up
Speaker 2: close and very personal. You've talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: some of the people that have criticized you, and especially
Speaker 2: in one particular case we spoke about this evening, But
Speaker 2: in general, what is the what are you finding in
Speaker 2: terms of with this book that came out a while
Speaker 2: ago and actually in twenty eleven, but with this book,
Speaker 2: what kind of response have you gotten and in terms
Speaker 2: of attitude wise, in terms of interviews that you've had
Speaker 2: about this book. As for people's perception changed since you've
Speaker 2: written this book.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's because of the media making up some terrible
Speaker 4: lies and stories on me. The book gave me the
Speaker 4: credibility back that I've always had and the reputation, the
Speaker 4: pristine reputation that I've always had and built up. So
Speaker 4: the book was good. I have I respond nearly to
Speaker 4: everyone that writes to me on my website that is
Speaker 4: the Victoria Restore dot Com, and I respond if it's
Speaker 4: good or if it's bad. But I honestly, I get
Speaker 4: usually ninety eight percent of people writing really good things,
Speaker 4: and I respond in exactly the same way as I
Speaker 4: responded Mius two percent to say, are you sick? You're
Speaker 4: talking about these people that nobody is the world I
Speaker 4: want to know about. And I write back and I
Speaker 4: explained here's why I do it. And I've had some
Speaker 4: lovely responses back from the people that attacked me originally
Speaker 4: and said, I'm sorry to be hard on you. I
Speaker 4: didn't mean too. I've said, no, no problem. It's a
Speaker 4: subject matter which I expect people to be mean and hard.
Speaker 4: But you know what, we can't hide these people away forever,
Speaker 4: because then when are we going to ever learn as
Speaker 4: to what forms these horrific monsters if there's not someone
Speaker 4: like me writing about it, or incredible networks like Investigation Discovery,
Speaker 4: which is based on just that. People are addicted to
Speaker 4: investigation Discovery. That's why they think ideatic. I mean, I'm
Speaker 4: addicted to that network. You know. I'm not making this
Speaker 4: stuff up. I'm not writing books, you know about the wallpaper.
Speaker 4: I'm writing books about what the public wants to know,
Speaker 4: what they want to read, and what they want to watch.
Speaker 4: And there's a fascination that will always be there. But
Speaker 4: the underlying fascination, which I'd like to think is redeeming,
Speaker 4: is that we really want to start these monsters from
Speaker 4: being made. I don't believe it form like this. I
Speaker 4: think they're formed and made with a childhood that's neglected,
Speaker 4: and they're abandoned and abusive. And this is why I
Speaker 4: think I'm little help just asocting, but not be even
Speaker 4: more of a bigger help when I go after those
Speaker 4: innocent people. Trust me.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to play devil's advocate. But for
Speaker 2: those you know, what is the difference between what's the
Speaker 2: difference between pushing these killers for information while at the
Speaker 2: same time, you know again, you can blow the myth
Speaker 2: away making all this money from writing about this. Is
Speaker 2: there some balance between the incredible wealth you're making from
Speaker 2: writing true crime? You know again, tongue in cheek, but
Speaker 2: the benefit of interviewing these people, who lots of times
Speaker 2: obviously want to talk, even if it's just to you.
Speaker 2: They still not every killer wants to say anything about
Speaker 2: their crimes. For those that say, you're just giving these
Speaker 2: people a venue to be able to wallow in their
Speaker 2: narcissism and their need for celebrit what exactly do you
Speaker 2: believe if you haven't gotten it already, what do you
Speaker 2: think you can believe and ascertain from interviewing these people?
Speaker 4: Because every single serial killer, math murd or a crime
Speaker 4: of passion, killer gang them with killer.
Speaker 7: Satanic worship of a.
Speaker 4: Killer is so different. Even in the group serial killers
Speaker 4: is themselves are so different. It's the most bizarre mindset
Speaker 4: on earth. You learn from each of them every day
Speaker 4: and you learn that this life and what I've learned
Speaker 4: is human connection is the most important thing in life.
Speaker 4: And each and every one of them has something common,
Speaker 4: and that's called they've become isolated. Isolation comes from not
Speaker 4: saying hello to someone when you walk into a gym
Speaker 4: or a coffee shop. Isolation comes when the world ignores
Speaker 4: you and then you could end up an aborted state
Speaker 4: of reality or go around killing people to feel powerful.
Speaker 4: We are losing the connection with human beings in the
Speaker 4: world today. I've got with these iPhones and these Facebook
Speaker 4: accounts and tweeters and twitters. I'm not on Twitter what
Speaker 4: it is, but it's something all of this people can't
Speaker 4: communicate anymore. So therefore there's no human connections and a
Speaker 4: lack of it's going to be recording isolation. I want
Speaker 4: to bring back the connection with human people. I want
Speaker 4: to bring that back, and if I really can bring
Speaker 4: it back to a few people there are going to
Speaker 4: be happier people. They'll be less depressed people, less isolated people,
Speaker 4: less people having an altered state of reality or hateful
Speaker 4: because if you bring someone out of isolation, they really
Speaker 4: don't have much to hate. Because when weigh a's a
Speaker 4: truck driver and keep justice in the truck driver, they're
Speaker 4: isolated in the world of their own with no one
Speaker 4: to talk to, and they confester in their desia sports.
Speaker 4: But yet can't fester if you're always connected to human beings.
Speaker 4: So I feel that by learning so much about these killers,
Speaker 4: talking to them one on one, going in deep, I've
Speaker 4: learned and involved myself because my goal in life is
Speaker 4: also to bring back that human connection with people. So
Speaker 4: that's another reason as to why I do it. And
Speaker 4: I haven't made worldly well for my book. I can
Speaker 4: assure you it's not the rage of the book ten
Speaker 4: fifteen years ago, I was about twelve, maybe, but I
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. But anyway, so this is
Speaker 4: why there's many reasons as to why it is a
Speaker 4: fascinating subject. But as I said, I'm also branching out
Speaker 4: into other areas of where I think the whole world
Speaker 4: would want to know about and that's really the people
Speaker 4: who've been serving times for a time they didn't connect.
Speaker 4: That's a much much more vast audience, and it's a
Speaker 4: much more interesting, redeeming thing for me to write about
Speaker 4: next time.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and it's not like you've just done this
Speaker 2: and scratched the surface. You've you've for contacted twenty of
Speaker 2: these serial killers. You've gone in depth, You've you've really
Speaker 2: rolled up your sleeves and done some incredible research getting
Speaker 2: the kind of information that's contained in this book, the
Speaker 2: kind of just gripping stuff coming right from these monster's
Speaker 2: own mouths. We talked just briefly about psychiatry, so I'll
Speaker 2: just go back to it because I think it's important
Speaker 2: because in your very first chapter you talk about a
Speaker 2: doctor Berg and he was talking about Wayne adam Ford
Speaker 2: and he was saying he didn't believe that he really
Speaker 2: was aware during the murders of what he was doing,
Speaker 2: and he was like automatic pilot unconscious. Of course, I
Speaker 2: know from my experience that this is a consciousness that
Speaker 2: are unconscious, but not like the dictionary version. It's a
Speaker 2: different one where you certainly are physically medically conscious, but
Speaker 2: apparently legally and psychiatrically unconscious. Again, I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about not so much because what's interesting about America. A
Speaker 2: difference in Canada is then a fraction of one percent
Speaker 2: of all murder cases are deemed someone's deemed not criminally responsible.
Speaker 2: And unlike what some people's perception is, there really isn't
Speaker 2: a lot of people ever that are put into mental
Speaker 2: institutions and let out a few years later, just let
Speaker 2: out free and to be able to walk and maybe
Speaker 2: possibly reoffend. But what we were talking about is that
Speaker 2: is your reaction in the book. And you add your
Speaker 2: own voice. Obviously, you are a character in this book,
Speaker 2: all your adventures going through prison security, trying to get
Speaker 2: around the rules. Like you say, you're a journalist. You
Speaker 2: do what you have to do to get things done.
Speaker 2: But you did talk about your conclusion as opposed to
Speaker 2: doctor Berg with Wayne adam Ford. So tell our audience
Speaker 2: what you think about that assessment, the psychiatric evaluation or assessment.
Speaker 2: And after interviewing Wayne adam Ford and all the people
Speaker 2: in your book, what is your conclusion about that you
Speaker 2: wrote about in this first chapter.
Speaker 4: Even I think I'm getting what you're saying, I'm going
Speaker 4: to go with what I think you're thinking has stop
Speaker 4: me if I'm wrong. But doctor Burg is a great
Speaker 4: forensic psychiatrist or psychologists, and he analyzed Wayne in the
Speaker 4: way that he was trained to analyze way you can't
Speaker 4: be trained to communicate. And that's the talent that I have,
Speaker 4: and it's a good one, and communication with people opens
Speaker 4: them up to really a lot more than what a
Speaker 4: psychiatrist can learn. So I understand that doctor Bird did
Speaker 4: put Wayne in that category that he I think he
Speaker 4: blacked out at the time, But you know why did
Speaker 4: he black out? How much did he black out? We
Speaker 4: weren't there, so I don't know if I'm answering your
Speaker 4: question correctly. I'm doing my best here. But what point
Speaker 4: was he blacking out? Or was he saying that he
Speaker 4: blacked out? Because you know, everyone's responsible for their actions
Speaker 4: and if their schizophrenically should be punished just as much,
Speaker 4: it makes no different. But I'm with you on that,
Speaker 4: But I don't really know the question what you're saying.
Speaker 4: I mean, the analysis that I come up with is
Speaker 4: just having human communication. I don't have this. I have
Speaker 4: not been trained in a psychiatrists. It's farther on me.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that I'm, you know, highly intelligent, because
Speaker 4: I'm not. I'm just able to communicate, and I'm really
Speaker 4: good at getting people to open up to me. So
Speaker 4: that's where I probably got a lot more out of
Speaker 4: Wayne than any doctor ever could. And that includes all
Speaker 4: the people in my book and more. So that's where
Speaker 4: I'm coming from. I don't ever answer your question.
Speaker 2: Well, basically, you know that the psychiatrist had this. He's
Speaker 2: not responsible because of course he can't remember. And again
Speaker 2: you say, he interviews him for a few hours and
Speaker 2: then he makes this assessment that's totally unprovable.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't believe a word of it. I don't
Speaker 4: believe that. I don't agree with that. How do you
Speaker 4: keep working out killing someone? I don't understand that. That
Speaker 4: is something about Wayne I do not understand, and I've
Speaker 4: never focused on it. I focus on he turned himself
Speaker 4: in from him mors. I think that's ridiculous. I mean,
Speaker 4: who kills somebody and forgets about it? The only way,
Speaker 4: the only reason a person should kill him up as
Speaker 4: human being is only in self defense, nothing else, no
Speaker 4: reason for it. We need to bring fact, the love
Speaker 4: to this world and not the hatred. I mean really,
Speaker 4: I really don't know why psychiatrists want to put them
Speaker 4: in a box, because no human being is worthy of
Speaker 4: going in a box because we are all so different,
Speaker 4: every one of us and chillers included. So it's just
Speaker 4: you can be trained what you want, but you're not
Speaker 4: going to get out of the serial killer what I
Speaker 4: can or a person.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's just a move towards believing somehow
Speaker 2: that you can fully comprehend the mindset of these people
Speaker 2: that you and I and the researchers and the authors
Speaker 2: and the academics have not been able to figure out.
Speaker 2: Of course, we can see here's maybe a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2: Here's some things that you know, again, isolation, neglect, abuse, alcoholism,
Speaker 2: drug use, incest, poverty, you know, no stability in terms
Speaker 2: of home life, you know, witnessing horrific events. But then again,
Speaker 2: there's a multitude of people that have experienced far worse
Speaker 2: and are ordinary, productive, regular citizens. So again it's it's
Speaker 2: not like psychiatry steps in there like they can offer
Speaker 2: an explanation and I won't go too far into it,
Speaker 2: but in Canada we actually believe that we have now
Speaker 2: psychiatric rehabilitation and if you do a little bit of
Speaker 2: research about the person that killed on a greyhound bus
Speaker 2: and cannibalizes victim. This person, after three years, is walking
Speaker 2: with an escort outside the institution with the promise of
Speaker 2: unescorted visits in a short period of time. It's like psychiatry,
Speaker 2: the psychiatric industry in Canada is trying to turn this
Speaker 2: pert into a poster boy for psychiatric rehabilitation and reintegration
Speaker 2: into society because he'll never face the charges. He's not
Speaker 2: criminally responsible because of insanity, and in a short period
Speaker 2: of time they were marveling at his response to these Again,
Speaker 2: I think it's ridiculous. Antipsychotic drugs.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I am in such shock. I've got
Speaker 4: to get myself up off the floor in my chair.
Speaker 4: I know about this case. That guy should have been
Speaker 4: shot at the I cannot believe you're telling me this.
Speaker 4: This guy does not deserve to greeth another day. I
Speaker 4: know about the case, and I just forgot about it
Speaker 4: because it was what.
Speaker 2: A year or two ago, it was three years ago.
Speaker 2: But I don't agree with the you know, I think
Speaker 2: there should be a difference between the hunter jesspersons and
Speaker 2: this person, and very much I can agree with the
Speaker 2: insanity if it's proven. You know, there are some people
Speaker 2: that have done some incredible things and they are insane.
Speaker 2: But again, I still think you have to be responsible.
Speaker 2: And I just do not see the difference. It's like
Speaker 2: rehabilitating a serial killer or rehabilitating an insane killer. And ironically,
Speaker 2: I have a program next week. Shavender Sem, a person
Speaker 2: who was accused of murder deemed not criminally responsible in
Speaker 2: the US and Iowa, I believe, is released and has
Speaker 2: written a book. He's gonna be on the profile. So
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm maybe I'm going to hear him out.
Speaker 2: I'm going to listen to his argument, and there is
Speaker 2: differences in the degree of again detachment from reality insanity. Again,
Speaker 2: I have an open mind, but this is where I
Speaker 2: have less of an open mind, especially when I see
Speaker 2: a case and I see the development of psychiatric defense
Speaker 2: in Canada. So I'm not to say America, watch out
Speaker 2: for the liberalization of your courts, but if it gains
Speaker 2: ground anywhere in any jurisdiction, you can be assured that
Speaker 2: some defense lawyer is going to try to trot it
Speaker 2: out in another jurisdiction.
Speaker 4: I know it's pathetic in this country too. It's pathetic
Speaker 4: in England too. And let me tell you that that
Speaker 4: horrible human being, Jared Loser, who tried to kill that
Speaker 4: darling Giffet lady and kill the all those innocent people
Speaker 4: and the child as well, that guy went to court
Speaker 4: last week and he did not get the death penalty.
Speaker 4: I don't know what this world is coming to. They
Speaker 4: are all rolling over because they yell at they're weak.
Speaker 4: I think that Keith Justinson, Jared Lotna, your guy in
Speaker 4: the bus, all of them have to be held responsible
Speaker 4: for what they do equally. It makes no difference that
Speaker 4: they don't need to be proven to be criminally insane.
Speaker 4: They killed an innocent person. We don't need to waste
Speaker 4: our time to find out if they're criminally insane. They
Speaker 4: kill them and it's a person. It's done. It's done.
Speaker 4: We don't want to we don't want them to ever
Speaker 4: come out of the building again. It's not even for
Speaker 4: a breath of fresh air, like you're saying, guys walking
Speaker 4: around the back ground. He doesn't deserve to. I don't
Speaker 4: agree with the death penalty because they can get it wrong.
Speaker 4: So so I'm not saying that I'm just saying cases
Speaker 4: like this they should not see the life of day. Equally,
Speaker 4: I don't care, insane or not, I don't care.
Speaker 2: And that's well, that's my that was my opinion until
Speaker 2: till it I have any kind of evidence to disprove that,
Speaker 2: because I am just not confident at all. Number one
Speaker 2: of our rehabilitation of killers too, the idea that that
Speaker 2: there is such a drug to render this person harmless,
Speaker 2: I see. I've never seen any evidence of that, and
Speaker 2: that's that's where I stand on that. And in terms
Speaker 2: of death, definitely I do not agree with it, because again,
Speaker 2: you can get it wrong. And in terms of if
Speaker 2: life in prison is not enough, then I think that
Speaker 2: the people who criticize that have certainly not done very
Speaker 2: very little time in prison. I would think if they're
Speaker 2: if they're thinking that again, I just talked about it
Speaker 2: last week. The threat of imminent death, like Jeffrey Talmer experienced,
Speaker 2: it is something that these people live with every day.
Speaker 2: So there is no picnic in prison for killers. I
Speaker 2: really don't think there is.
Speaker 4: There is there is. I hate to say it. I'm
Speaker 4: not going to tell you what goes on in California.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say that at other places, but
Speaker 4: in some prisons there are yet Flora and Texas there
Speaker 4: is not. So there's a little bit of a picnic
Speaker 4: going on in certain areas, let's just say that. And again,
Speaker 4: they should have these family members. It's the most important
Speaker 4: people in the world, of the family members of the victim.
Speaker 4: And they do not want to know that there's a
Speaker 4: picnic out there. They really don't. And I know I
Speaker 4: write books on it. Someone actually almost contradicting myself, but
Speaker 4: I'm really doing it to learn and to teach other
Speaker 4: people and to show other people. But seriously, they should
Speaker 4: not be famous for this as all nobody, none of
Speaker 4: them should. But they should all be locked up and
Speaker 4: definitely the key thrown away. And I mean that with insane,
Speaker 4: not in say mis no different.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, Victoria, it's fantastic speaking with you tonight. Your
Speaker 2: book serial Killers up close and very personal, your death
Speaker 2: Row interviews with the most dangerous men on the planet.
Speaker 2: This is an eye opener and incredible read, and you
Speaker 2: get if you want to get close to a serial killer,
Speaker 2: it really is via Victoria Redstall, because she's right there
Speaker 2: in the room admonishing these killers for an explin asking
Speaker 2: for an explanation for their horrific murders. I applaud you
Speaker 2: if you're one brave cookie here and you've brought us
Speaker 2: a great, great, great story, and I applaud your new
Speaker 2: sort of direction. I'm sure you won't give up on
Speaker 2: the serial killers, because they certainly won't give up on you.
Speaker 2: But I applaud you in your new direction. I look
Speaker 2: forward to your next project, which should be right around
Speaker 2: the corner, no doubt. But thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me on the show, and I
Speaker 4: great you appreciate you inviting me to be on your show,
Speaker 4: so thank you to that.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, of Victoria. You have a good evening,
Speaker 2: you two.
Speaker 4: Okay, bye bye, good night, good night, good