WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Bedtime Astronomy. Explore the wonders of the cosmos

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<v Speaker 1>with our soothing Bedtime Astronomie podcast. Each episode offers a

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<v Speaker 1>gentle journey through the stars, planets, and beyond, perfect for

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<v Speaker 1>unwinding after a long day. Let's travel through the mysteries

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<v Speaker 1>of the universe as you drift off into a peaceful

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<v Speaker 1>slumber under the night sky.

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<v Speaker 2>We are starting today with a pretty cosmic mandate, really

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<v Speaker 2>trying to find our closest earthlike neighbors out there. And

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<v Speaker 2>for this deep dive, we're looking into the future of

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<v Speaker 2>space explorations, specifically at the machine designed to do just that,

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<v Speaker 2>the Habitable World's Observatory. You'll hear it called HWO. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>HWO is slated to be the next great observatory, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>following the footsteps of giants like Hubble and Web. But

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<v Speaker 2>it has this incredibly specific central mission. It needs to

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<v Speaker 2>analyze the atmospheres of at least twenty five exoplanets earth

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<v Speaker 2>like ones, searching for biosignature basically signs of life. For

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<v Speaker 2>a long time, the main strategy for HWO has really

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<v Speaker 2>hinged on using an extremely powerful coronagraph that's well the

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<v Speaker 2>specialized tool designed to block out the overwhelming light of

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<v Speaker 2>a star so you can actually see hopefully the faint

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<v Speaker 2>little planet orbiting next to it. But here's the snag.

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<v Speaker 2>Finding twenty five worlds like that, especially when you don't

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<v Speaker 2>even know for sure where most of them are hiding.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a massive targeting problem.

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<v Speaker 3>It absolutely is. It's an issue of well efficiency and

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<v Speaker 3>just sheer astronomical legwork. You could waste so much time

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<v Speaker 3>pointing at the wrong places, and that difficulty, that strategic

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<v Speaker 3>challenge is exactly what Fibiu Malbad and his colleagues are

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<v Speaker 3>tackling in some new research. They're proposing that hw needs

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<v Speaker 3>a bit of an upgrade, really a powerful secondary instrument,

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<v Speaker 3>one that could frankly revolutionize how HWO picks its targets

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<v Speaker 3>for that crucial atmospheric analysis. Yeah, the big idea is

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<v Speaker 3>adding a cutting edge, super high precision astrometry instrument to

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<v Speaker 3>hwo's toolkit. And this isn't just like a minor tweak.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a genuine leap in capability. If they do this,

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<v Speaker 3>this instrument could potentially identify confirmed Earth sized planets orbiting

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<v Speaker 3>hundreds of nearby stars. Think about that. It would instantly

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<v Speaker 3>feed the HWO chronograph. This like perfectly curated list of

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<v Speaker 3>prime targets.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, wow, let's unpack that straight away, because I mean

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<v Speaker 2>the implications they are pretty stunning. So this add on

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<v Speaker 2>dramatically boosts hwo's chances of hitting its main goal finding

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<v Speaker 2>those biosignatures, obviously, but you're saying it also gives us

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<v Speaker 2>this remarkable, almost separate scientific bonus that this incredibly precise

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<v Speaker 2>planet hunter could actually double as a tool for cosmology,

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<v Speaker 2>helping us map, maybe even solve, one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>riddles out there, how cold dark matter CDM is spread

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<v Speaker 2>out precisely.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the unexpected twist. So for you listening, what we'll

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<v Speaker 3>do in this dive is unpack the amazing tech precision

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<v Speaker 3>needed for this. We're talking measurements down to half of

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<v Speaker 3>micro arc second, just incredibly fine. We'll explore why that

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<v Speaker 3>jump in sensitivity so critical, the kind of engineering tricks

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<v Speaker 3>that might make it possible, and you know what discovering

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<v Speaker 3>all these plans and potentially mapping dark matter could mean

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<v Speaker 3>for understanding our place in the cosmos and the universe's

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<v Speaker 3>basic structure.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, let's start with HWO itself and its core

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<v Speaker 2>job it's a biosignature hunter. Fundamentally, that means it needs

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<v Speaker 2>to gather light from a planet potentially dozens of light

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<v Speaker 2>years away, break that light down and look for the

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<v Speaker 2>chemical fingerprints of things like oxygen, methane, water, vapor, things

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<v Speaker 2>that could indicate life. And doing that takes a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>hours and hours of telescope time focused on just one

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<v Speaker 2>single target. So picking the right targets efficiently, that's everything.

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<v Speaker 3>It really is. The coronagraph, as amazing as it is,

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<v Speaker 3>needs good intel beforehand. It needs to know exactly where

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<v Speaker 3>to point and ideally know the planet's orbit pretty well

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<v Speaker 3>so it can track it effectively. And that leads us

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<v Speaker 3>right into this, well, this significant gap in what we

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<v Speaker 3>currently know about planets right here in our own stellar backyard.

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<v Speaker 3>Just think about the stars within say sixty five light

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<v Speaker 3>years of Earth. That's our immediate cosmic neighborhood, right These

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<v Speaker 3>are prime candidates for HWO to look at. But of

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<v Speaker 3>the sun like stars in that local bubble, we currently

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<v Speaker 3>only know if planet's orbiting about twelve percent of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Only twelve percent, And that low number isn't even the

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<v Speaker 2>most critical part of the story, is it, No, not

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<v Speaker 2>at all?

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<v Speaker 3>The really crucial detail is the kind of planets we've

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<v Speaker 3>found so far around those nearby stars. Every single one

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<v Speaker 3>of the confirmed planets in that local sixty five light

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<v Speaker 3>year zone is a gas giant. We're talking worlds like

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<v Speaker 3>Jupiter or even bigger. As of today, we haven't confidently

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<v Speaker 3>identified a single rocky Earth sized exoplanet orbiting a nearby

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<v Speaker 3>Sun like star.

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<v Speaker 2>Not one, right, So let me just make sure I'm

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<v Speaker 2>getting the straight for everyone listening. In this huge volume

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<v Speaker 2>of space right around us, a space where we assume

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<v Speaker 2>there should be plenty of smaller rocky worlds, our best

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<v Speaker 2>technology so far just hasn't been able to confirm any.

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<v Speaker 2>It almost sounds wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>It's purely a function of our instruments limitations, not necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>a reflection of what's actually out there. It doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 3>those Earth sized worlds aren't there. I mean all our

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<v Speaker 3>theories of planet formation suggest they should be pretty common. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>it just means the signals they pretty, whether it's their

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<v Speaker 3>reflected light or their gravitational tug, are currently getting drowned

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<v Speaker 3>out by the noise. You know, if you're trying to

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<v Speaker 3>spot a tiny firefly right next to a giant searchlight,

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<v Speaker 3>your camera needs incredible contrast and stability.

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<v Speaker 2>Same idea here, and that brings us squarely to this

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<v Speaker 2>precision problem and the limits of our current best tool

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<v Speaker 2>for this kind of work. The Gaya Space Observatory. Guy's

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<v Speaker 2>been amazing for mapping stars in the Milky Way, absolutely revolutionary,

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<v Speaker 2>but for finding these tiny earth like worlds nearby, it

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<v Speaker 2>kind of hits a sensitivity wall.

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<v Speaker 3>Guya really is the gold standard for current astrometry. It

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<v Speaker 3>measures the positions and movements of stars with phenomenal accuracy,

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<v Speaker 3>but its absolute best precision, its limit is around twenty

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<v Speaker 3>to thirty micro arc seconds. We usually write that as ice.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, twenty or thirty micro arc seconds. That sounds incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>tiny already. Why does that still fall short for finding

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<v Speaker 2>an Earth? Twin? What's the physical scale here that we're missing?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, to grasp the challenge, you need to visualize the

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<v Speaker 3>star's actual movement. It's wobble. See when a planet orbits

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<v Speaker 3>a star, they both actually orbit a common center of mass.

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<v Speaker 3>It's called the Barry center. Now, a really massive planet

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<v Speaker 3>like Jupiter makes our Sun move quite a bit, pulls

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<v Speaker 3>the Sun around and a loop that's what about two

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<v Speaker 3>million kilometers across even from sixty five light years away.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a relatively large angular displacement on the sky. It's

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<v Speaker 3>something Guy that can measure, and that's why Guy is

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<v Speaker 3>great at finding gas giants. Okay, but now picture an

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<v Speaker 3>Earth mass planet orbiting a sun like star. That tiny

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<v Speaker 3>planet only makes it star wobble by maybe a few

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<v Speaker 3>thousand kilometers let's say enter ten thousand kilometers over its

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<v Speaker 3>whole orbit. Now translate that tiny physical movement into an

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<v Speaker 3>angle on the sky as seen from sixty five light

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<v Speaker 3>years away. That angular shift, the wobble we need to

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<v Speaker 3>detect it works out to be less than one micro second.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah. Okay, So Guya's best measurement twenty to thirty onens

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<v Speaker 2>is just way too coarse. It's like trying to measure

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<v Speaker 2>something a millimeter wide with a ruler marked only in centimeters.

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<v Speaker 2>We're hunting for a wiggle that might be, say, thirty

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<v Speaker 2>times smaller than the inherent error the noise level in

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<v Speaker 2>our current best.

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<v Speaker 3>Instruments exactly that twenty to thirty on's level is effectively

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<v Speaker 3>the noise floor of today's technology for this specific task.

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<v Speaker 3>And hiding beneath that noise floor we think are potentially

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<v Speaker 3>hundreds of habitable Earth sized worlds right next door. So

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<v Speaker 3>the only way to really enable hwo's primary mission to

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<v Speaker 3>give it those targets is to dramatically, drastically lower that

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<v Speaker 3>noise floor.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. So, if the coronagraph is the tool for the

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive, the detailed atmospheric sniffing, then astrometry, this wobble

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<v Speaker 2>measuring technique sounds like the perfect tool for the initial

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<v Speaker 2>survey for finding the worlds and figuring out their basic properties. First,

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<v Speaker 2>can you give us a quick, clear definition of astrometry

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<v Speaker 2>against specifically how it helps us find exoplanet sure?

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<v Speaker 3>At its heart, astrometry is simply the science of measuring

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<v Speaker 3>the precise positions and motions of stars over time very accurately.

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<v Speaker 3>When we apply it to finding exoplanets, we're looking for

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<v Speaker 3>that tiny, repetitive periodic shift in a star's parent position

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<v Speaker 3>on the sky. That shift is caused by the gravitational

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<v Speaker 3>pull of an orbiting planet tugging the star back and

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<v Speaker 3>forth as they both orbit that common center of mass,

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<v Speaker 3>the Barry Center. We're basically tracking the star's side of

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<v Speaker 3>that orbital.

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<v Speaker 2>Dance, and the beauty of it is the size of

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<v Speaker 2>that wobble directly relates to the mass of the planet

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<v Speaker 2>doing the tugging right, bigger wobble, bigger planet.

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<v Speaker 3>Mass exactly right. And that's the huge advantage of astrometry

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<v Speaker 3>because that gravitational relationship is so well understood based on physics.

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<v Speaker 3>If you can measure that wobble with extremely high precision,

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<v Speaker 3>you can calculate the exoplanet's entire orbital solution, its orbital period,

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<v Speaker 3>how far it is from the star on average, a

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<v Speaker 3>semi major axis, even how elliptical its orbit is. You

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<v Speaker 3>basically get a complete map of its path, which tells

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<v Speaker 3>you exactly where that planet will be at any given time.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's absolutely critical for pointing the coronograph later on.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so that's the practical benefit better targeting knowing where

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<v Speaker 2>to look makes sense. But you also mention a fundamental

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<v Speaker 2>scientific advantage, something that other main planet finding methods like

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<v Speaker 2>the transit method or radial velocity can't quite deliver with

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<v Speaker 2>the same certainty.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and this is key. Astrometry allows you to determine

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<v Speaker 3>the exo planet's absolute mass, not just a minimum mass,

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<v Speaker 3>but it's actual mass. See the radio velocity method, which

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<v Speaker 3>measures the stars wobble towards and away from us only

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<v Speaker 3>gives you a minimum possible mass for the planet. That's

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<v Speaker 3>because the signal depends on the tilt of the planet's

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<v Speaker 3>orbit relative to our line of sight, and usually we

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<v Speaker 3>don't know that tilt precisely. Astrometry, though, measures the side

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<v Speaker 3>to side wobble on the sky. That measurement directly gives

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<v Speaker 3>you the true, unambiguous mass of the planet. And why

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<v Speaker 3>is knowing the true mass so important? We'll think about

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<v Speaker 3>Hwo's goal finding life. To assess if a planet could

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<v Speaker 3>host life, we first need to know if it's even rocky. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>If you can combine that absolute mass from astrometry with

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<v Speaker 3>the planet's radius, which you might get if you're lucky

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<v Speaker 3>and the planet also happens to transit passing in front

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<v Speaker 3>of it star from our view, then mass plus radius

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<v Speaker 3>gives you density. And density is the killer metric. It's

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<v Speaker 3>what fundamentally tells you if you're looking at a dense,

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<v Speaker 3>rocky world like Earth or Venus, or a puffy, low

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<v Speaker 3>density gas or ice giant like Jupiter or Neptune, which are,

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<v Speaker 3>let's face it, much less likely places to find life

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<v Speaker 3>as we know it. So astramistry provides that foundational piece

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<v Speaker 3>of the puzzle for figuring out if the planet is

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<v Speaker 3>even potentially habitable in the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so it all comes back to the main challenge

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<v Speaker 2>getting sensitive enough to measure that incredibly tiny wobble from

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<v Speaker 2>an Earth mass planet Gia. Our current best is stuck

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<v Speaker 2>at around twenty thirty oins. What's the leap in precision

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<v Speaker 2>that doctor Malbat's proposal is calling for. How much better

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<v Speaker 2>do we need to be?

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<v Speaker 3>The instrument they're suggesting aims for an operational precision of

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<v Speaker 3>I get this zero point five micro arc seconds.

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<v Speaker 2>Half of microrost. Wow. Okay, just comparing that to Gaya,

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<v Speaker 2>which is already state of the area. You're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>making this new instrument on EAHWO something like four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>to six hundred times more sensitive than Guya. That's that's

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<v Speaker 2>not just like the next step up. That's like skipping

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<v Speaker 2>two whole generations of technology. It completely changes the game

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<v Speaker 2>for hwo's mission.

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<v Speaker 3>It really does. Just to give you a sense of scale,

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<v Speaker 3>foer point five targets, that's roughly the angular size of

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<v Speaker 3>a single human hair viewed from about five hundred miles away.

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<v Speaker 3>It's an unbelievably fine measurement we're talking about making from

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<v Speaker 3>space and achieving that level of sensitivity that point five

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<v Speaker 3>tarrets is the absolute key. It's what unlocks potentially hundreds

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<v Speaker 3>of new Exo Earth candidates right in our solar neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 3>It means hwo's giant coronagraph doesn't have to waste precious

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<v Speaker 3>time searching blindly or inefficiently. Instead, it gets handed this

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<v Speaker 3>highly optimized, pre vetted list of confirmed targets, complete with

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<v Speaker 3>their masses and orbital details, making it much much easier

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<v Speaker 3>to efficiently tick off that primary mission goal finding those

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<v Speaker 3>twenty five biosignatures.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, boosting precision by a factor of say four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>or six hundred, that obviously means you have to overcome

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<v Speaker 2>some equally huge technical challenges. If doing astronotry at point

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<v Speaker 2>five highs was easy, presumably we'd have done it by now.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's the main weakness? What makes these astrometers so

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<v Speaker 2>prone to error that we need to fix?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, even out in the relative stability of space, astronomers

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<v Speaker 3>are inherently susceptible to what we call systematic errors. You're

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<v Speaker 3>trying to measure an angular shift on the sky. That's

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<v Speaker 3>smaller than the width of a virus. Right, So, every

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<v Speaker 3>tiny physical imperfection in the instrument itself, whether it's in

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<v Speaker 3>the detector chip, tiny misalignments in the mirrors, slight changes

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<v Speaker 3>do to temperature, all these things can combine and create

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<v Speaker 3>noise that swamps the signal you're looking for. The main

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<v Speaker 3>offenders are usually imperfections in the detector and just thermal instability.

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<v Speaker 3>The sensor, typically a CMOS chip like in your phone camera,

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<v Speaker 3>but much more advanced, isn't mathematically perfect. The pixels aren't

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<v Speaker 3>all identical squares. They have tiny variations and how sensitive

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<v Speaker 3>they are, their exact size, their electrical behavior. That's due

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<v Speaker 3>to the manufacturing process, and it's called fixed pattern noise. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>if that sensor shifts even minutely relative to the incoming starlight,

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<v Speaker 3>or if it's temperature fluctuates by even a tiny fraction

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<v Speaker 3>of a degree, those built in imperfections create errors in

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<v Speaker 3>your position measurement, and those errors very quickly add up

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<v Speaker 3>and overwhelm the sub microarc second signal you're desperately trying

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<v Speaker 3>to detect. That inherent instrumental noise floor is basically why

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<v Speaker 3>we've been stuck around that twenty thirty oin limit for

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<v Speaker 3>so long.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So to break through that barrier and actually hit

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<v Speaker 2>zero point five noise, Malvot's team is proposing a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of two pronged attack, right, a strategy to cancel out

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<v Speaker 2>both those predictable systematic errors from the hardware itself and

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<v Speaker 2>also the unpredictable random noise from the environment. Let's start

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<v Speaker 2>with the first part, the clever bit of technology, the

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<v Speaker 2>detector calibration unit or DCU. What does that do?

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<v Speaker 3>The DCU is a really neat piece of engineering. It's

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<v Speaker 3>designed specifically to tackle that fixed pattern noise problem on

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<v Speaker 3>the CMOS sensor head on. So you've got your sensor,

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<v Speaker 3>which is basically this grid of millions of tiny light

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<v Speaker 3>collecting pixels. The DCU generates a set of extremely precise,

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<v Speaker 3>stable reference patterns, think of them like light and dark

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<v Speaker 3>interference fringes, or a super high resolution grid pattern, and

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<v Speaker 3>it projects these known patterns directly onto the face of

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<v Speaker 3>the CMO sensor itself while you're observing.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah. Okay, so it's like shining a perfect unchanging calibration

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<v Speaker 2>ruler directly onto the detector every time you take a

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<v Speaker 2>picture exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a great analogy the DCU allows the system to

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<v Speaker 3>isolate and map the precise physical location and the specific

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<v Speaker 3>response characteristics of every single pixel in that detector array.

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<v Speaker 3>And this calibration isn't just done once. It's done constantly

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<v Speaker 3>or very frequently. It effectively corrects for all those tiny

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<v Speaker 3>pixel to pixel variations, any slight geometric distortions introduced by

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<v Speaker 3>the telescope's optics, and even tiny changes in the detector's

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<v Speaker 3>own internal shape or geometry caused by minute thermal expansions

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<v Speaker 3>or vibrations. What it does basically is create a perfectly

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<v Speaker 3>stable internal coordinate system right on the detector itself, so

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<v Speaker 3>when the light from the target star hits that sensor,

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<v Speaker 3>the DCU calibration ensures that any measured shift in the

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<v Speaker 3>star's apparent position is a real angular movement due to

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<v Speaker 3>its gravitational wobble, and not just some artifact caused by

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<v Speaker 3>the telescope hardware warming up by a thousandth of a

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<v Speaker 3>degree or a pixel behaving slightly differently than its neighbor.

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<v Speaker 3>It aims to drive that systematic air contribution down to

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<v Speaker 3>almost zero.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that sounds like it tackles the predictable flaws in

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<v Speaker 2>the hardware pretty effectively. But even with a perfect DCU,

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<v Speaker 2>you're still going to have some residual fuzziness, right, random

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<v Speaker 2>errors from things like stray background light, maybe a cosmic

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<v Speaker 2>ray hitting the detector, tiny thermal jitters. So this requires

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<v Speaker 2>the second ingredient in the recipe, basically statistical brute force.

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<v Speaker 2>You need lots and lots of data.

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<v Speaker 3>You need a massive amount of data. The estimate they

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<v Speaker 3>provide to the paper suggests that to really nail down

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<v Speaker 3>the conformation of an Earth mass planet and to average

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<v Speaker 3>down all those random errors to achieve that overall zero

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<v Speaker 3>point five arrow precision goal, HWO would probably need to

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<v Speaker 3>collect over one hundred separate high precision measurements of that

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<v Speaker 3>particular star system.

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<v Speaker 2>And these aren't just one hundred snapshots taken one after another.

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<v Speaker 2>I assume you need to spread them out over time

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<v Speaker 2>to actually see the orbit absolutely correct.

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<v Speaker 3>These hundred plus measurements would need to be distributed over

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<v Speaker 3>the course of hwo's planned operational lifetime, which is typically

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<v Speaker 3>expected to be around three to four years. You need

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<v Speaker 3>that longtime baseline to actually track this are through a

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<v Speaker 3>significant portion, ideally more than one full cycle of its

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<v Speaker 3>gravitational wobble caused by the planet. That's how you confirm

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<v Speaker 3>the orbital period accurately, and the reason for needing so

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<v Speaker 3>many images. The statistics part is pretty straightforward. Even the

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<v Speaker 3>brilliant DCU can't stop every single random, unpredictable error. A

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<v Speaker 3>stray photon here, a tiny vibration there. These are stochastic events.

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<v Speaker 3>But the magic happens when you take a hundred or

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<v Speaker 3>maybe one hundred and fifty of these individual measurements. The

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<v Speaker 3>central limit theorem from statistics starts to work in your favor.

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<v Speaker 3>Random errors are by definition random. They scatter. So if

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<v Speaker 3>what measurement happens to have a random error that nudges

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<v Speaker 3>the stars measure positions slightly to the north, it's likely

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<v Speaker 3>that another measurement taken later will have a roughly equal

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<v Speaker 3>and opposite random error that nudges the position slightly to

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<v Speaker 3>the south right.

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<v Speaker 2>So by combining and averaging all those hundreds of measurements together,

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<v Speaker 2>you effectively force those random plus and minus errors to

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<v Speaker 2>statistically cancel each other out over the long run, leaving

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<v Speaker 2>behind only the consistent underlying signal that tiny, stable, repeatable

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<v Speaker 2>gravitational wobble of the star caused by the planet.

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<v Speaker 3>That's exactly the rationale. It's this combination, this marriage of

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<v Speaker 3>highly sophisticated real time technical calibration that's the DCU with

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<v Speaker 3>the sheer power of statistical averaging from taking lots and

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<v Speaker 3>lots of pictures that gives us confidence we can actually

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<v Speaker 3>stabilize the final result down to that incredibly demanding zero

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<v Speaker 3>point five a's of precision level. It transforms a mission

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<v Speaker 3>initially conceived around just a coronagraph into potentially the definitive

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<v Speaker 3>surveyor of nearby planetary masses as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now we pivot to the part that for me,

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<v Speaker 2>really elevates this whole proposal. It goes beyond just making

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<v Speaker 2>HWO better at its main job. The idea that an

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<v Speaker 2>instrument fine tuned to measure a star wobbling by just

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<v Speaker 2>a few thousand kilometers could also give us real leverage

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<v Speaker 2>on one of the universe's biggest mysteries, cold dark matter.

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<v Speaker 2>That's pretty amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>It is a truly remarkable example of how pushing the

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<v Speaker 3>technological envelope in one area of science can suddenly unexpectedly

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<v Speaker 3>on block brand new capabilities in a completely different field.

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<v Speaker 3>Hwo's proposed astrometer if built to this point five and

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<v Speaker 3>spec could provide crucial observational data to directly test the

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<v Speaker 3>standard model of cold dark matter. Specifically, it could help

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<v Speaker 3>resolve a long standing puzzle about how dark matter is

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<v Speaker 3>actually distributed right in the centers of galaxies.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and this gets into the famous cusp versus core debate,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't it? If dark matter is cold, meaning it moves

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<v Speaker 2>slowly and mostly non interacting except through gravity, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the standard CDM picture, what should happen to it near

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<v Speaker 2>the super dense center of a galaxy? What does theory predict?

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<v Speaker 3>The standard CDM theory is pretty unequivocal on this. It

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<v Speaker 3>should form a cusp because dark matter particles in this

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<v Speaker 3>model only really feel gravity. They should just keep getting

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<v Speaker 3>pulled deeper and deeper into the galaxies gravitational Well, this

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<v Speaker 3>process should cause the density of dark matter to continuously

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<v Speaker 3>increase the closer you get to the very center, creating

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<v Speaker 3>a really steep, sharp spike in density right at the core,

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<v Speaker 3>like a pointy cut.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so theory predicts this sharp density peak, But what

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<v Speaker 2>do our observations actually show us, Especially when we look

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<v Speaker 2>at smaller dwarf galaxies where the dark matter signal is

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<v Speaker 2>often clearer, less mixed up with normal matter.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's where the tension arises. Observations, particularly from studying

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<v Speaker 3>how stars orbit in the outer parts of galaxies, and

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<v Speaker 3>especially in these smaller dwarf galaxies, they frequently suggest something different.

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<v Speaker 3>The data often indicates that the dark matter density profile

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<v Speaker 3>tends to flatten out in the very center. Instead of

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<v Speaker 3>that sharp cusp, we seem to see a core, basically

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<v Speaker 3>a region where the dark matter density is more or

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<v Speaker 3>less constant, or at least doesn't spike up dramatically right

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<v Speaker 3>at the galactic heart.

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<v Speaker 2>So theory predicts a steep point. Observation suggests more of

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<v Speaker 2>a flat plateau in the middle. That's a pretty significant disagreement,

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<v Speaker 2>and the existence of these apparent cores implies something's going

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<v Speaker 2>on that isn't in the simplest CDM model right. Either

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<v Speaker 2>are assumptions about dark matter or wrong, or something else

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<v Speaker 2>is messing with its distribution exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>These cores are real and common. It means something must

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<v Speaker 3>be acting to sort of smooth out or push that

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<v Speaker 3>dark matter away from the very center. What could it be, Well,

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<v Speaker 3>one possibility is astrophysical feedback from normal matter things like

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<v Speaker 3>massive bursts of star formation and powerful supernova explosions. These

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<v Speaker 3>events can violently expel gas and energy, potentially pushing the

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<v Speaker 3>dark matter outwards too, dynamically creating a core over time.

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<v Speaker 3>Or maybe point to something fundamental about the dark matter

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<v Speaker 3>particles themselves. Perhaps dark matter isn't completely non interacting. Maybe

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<v Speaker 3>it's self interacting dark matter or SIDM, where dark matter

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<v Speaker 3>particles can actually collide and scatter off each other occasionally.

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<v Speaker 3>That kind of self interaction would naturally tend to smooth

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<v Speaker 3>out the central density peak, turning a CUSP into a core.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is where hwo's super precise astrometer comes back

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<v Speaker 2>into the picture. We're not looking for a star's wobble anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about using that same incredible point five visos

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<v Speaker 2>precision to detect the subtle gravitational effects of those predicted

408
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<v Speaker 2>dark matter cusps themselves, if they exist. How does that work?

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<v Speaker 2>How does measuring star positions help us see? A dark

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<v Speaker 2>matter cusp.

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<v Speaker 3>Would use the phenomenon called gravitational lensing, or more specifically,

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<v Speaker 3>gravitational deflection of light. Any concentration of mass like the

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<v Speaker 3>dense dark matter cusp predicted by CDM theory will bend

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<v Speaker 3>the path of light that passes near it. Now we

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<v Speaker 3>can't see the dark manner directly, of course, but we

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<v Speaker 3>can see distant background stars or quasars whose light has

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<v Speaker 3>to travel past or through these potential dark matter concentrations

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<v Speaker 3>in nearby galaxies on its way to us. If a

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<v Speaker 3>dense dark matter cusp is sitting there between HWO and

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<v Speaker 3>some distant background star, the gravity of that cusp will

421
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:43.200
<v Speaker 3>slightly deflect the light from the background star. This deflection

422
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.839
<v Speaker 3>causes a tiny, tiny shift in the apparent position of

423
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.920
<v Speaker 3>that background star as seen by HWO. That predicted shift

424
00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:52.880
<v Speaker 3>caused by the lengthening effect of a standard CDM cusp

425
00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.960
<v Speaker 3>is incredibly small. Calculation suggests it's right around the level

426
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.359
<v Speaker 3>of you guessed a zero point five micro arc seconds.

427
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.319
<v Speaker 3>Only an instrument with the kind of precision being proposed

428
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.240
<v Speaker 3>for hw a's astrometer would actually be sensitive enough to

429
00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.839
<v Speaker 3>reliably detect these minute skilled deflections caused specifically by the

430
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.039
<v Speaker 3>presence of a dark matter.

431
00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.079
<v Speaker 2>Cusp ah I see. So the logic is if this

432
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.400
<v Speaker 2>astrometer looks at millions of background stars shining through the

433
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.039
<v Speaker 2>centers of nearby galaxies, and it consistently fails to find

434
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.279
<v Speaker 2>those tell tale point five thitdistic positional shifts that a

435
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.000
<v Speaker 2>cusp should produce. Then that provides strong evidence that the

436
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.640
<v Speaker 2>cusps aren't there and the dark matter must be arranged

437
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>in cores instead.

438
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:35.359
<v Speaker 3>It would provide potentially definitive, clean observational evidence. Yes, that

439
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 3>kind of data. A null result across many targets would

440
00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:43.359
<v Speaker 3>really force cosmologists to seriously re evaluate the standard, simplest

441
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:46.960
<v Speaker 3>CDM model. It would lend powerful support either to alternative

442
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.759
<v Speaker 3>dark matter theories like self interacting dark matter, or to

443
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.839
<v Speaker 3>models where astrophysical feedback processes are extremely efficient at flattening

444
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.319
<v Speaker 3>alcocentral densities. So this one instrument, borne out of the

445
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.880
<v Speaker 3>very practical need to find nearby Earth like planets suddenly

446
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.920
<v Speaker 3>becomes this fundamental probe for understanding the distribution of dark

447
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.039
<v Speaker 3>matter and the very structure of galaxies.

448
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.400
<v Speaker 2>It really is quite something, the solution to a tricky

449
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:16.200
<v Speaker 2>planetary measurement problem potentially unlocking answers to a deep cosmological mystery. Now,

450
00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:20.240
<v Speaker 2>this proposal sounds incredibly powerful, almost essential, giving these potential

451
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.599
<v Speaker 2>twins scientific payoffs better exoplanet hunting and insights into dark matter.

452
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:29.559
<v Speaker 2>But space missions are notoriously complex, incredibly expensive, and take

453
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.519
<v Speaker 2>decades to plan and build. So let's put this idea

454
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 2>into context a bit. How developed is this concept? Is

455
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:37.759
<v Speaker 2>it brand new or does it have some history? And

456
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:39.319
<v Speaker 2>why does it make sense to try and tack it

457
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>onto HWO.

458
00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:41.960
<v Speaker 3>Now, well, that's a good point, and the idea is

459
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.960
<v Speaker 3>actually highly mature technically speaking. It didn't just spring up

460
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.160
<v Speaker 3>out of nowhere for HWO. Doctor Malbitt, who led the

461
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.240
<v Speaker 3>recent paper, was also a key figure behind a much earlier,

462
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:53.920
<v Speaker 3>very detailed mission proposal called THEA.

463
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.359
<v Speaker 2>THEA I remember hearing about that. That was basically envisioned

464
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.759
<v Speaker 2>as a dedicated space telescope whose entire purpose was going

465
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.200
<v Speaker 2>to be ultra high precision astrometry. Right, using essentially the

466
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:05.759
<v Speaker 2>same core technology concept.

467
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.880
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly right. THEO was designed from the ground up

468
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.519
<v Speaker 3>as a standalone mission, completely separate from the lineage at

469
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:16.880
<v Speaker 3>the great observatories like Hubble Web or HWO. The THEA

470
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:21.160
<v Speaker 3>team spent years meticulously developing the concept, working through the

471
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:25.839
<v Speaker 3>incredibly demanding error budgets, figuring out how to control systematic errors,

472
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:30.680
<v Speaker 3>and designing the specialized hardware needed, including crucial calibration systems

473
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.960
<v Speaker 3>like that detector calibration unit of the DCU we discussed. Now,

474
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.720
<v Speaker 3>ultimately THEA wasn't selected by the funding agencies to move

475
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.039
<v Speaker 3>forward and actually launch, but all that detailed engineering work,

476
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.359
<v Speaker 3>the simulations, the technical solutions, that knowledge base still exists

477
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:44.640
<v Speaker 3>and is highly valuable.

478
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So if you look at it strategically, then since

479
00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the really hard groundwork for achieving this kind of super

480
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.559
<v Speaker 2>precision astrometry has largely already been done for THEA, it

481
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.880
<v Speaker 2>seems incredibly logical, maybe even efficient, to try and incorporate

482
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that already developed capability into HDI. You avoid the huge

483
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.160
<v Speaker 2>cost and complexity of launching a whole, separate, dedicated mission

484
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.359
<v Speaker 2>like THEO was planned to be, while at the same

485
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:11.039
<v Speaker 2>time you significantly boost hwo's ability to achieve its own

486
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.039
<v Speaker 2>primary goal. Kind of a win win.

487
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.160
<v Speaker 3>It really does look like a way to maximize the

488
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.400
<v Speaker 3>scientific return on investment for a single major flagship mission

489
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.480
<v Speaker 3>like HWO. I mean, any instrument that can quickly and

490
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.720
<v Speaker 3>definitively find and confirm potentially hundreds of Earth mass planets

491
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.359
<v Speaker 3>right in our solar neighborhood. That directly makes hwo's main

492
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.920
<v Speaker 3>job getting those twenty five biosignatures far more achievable within

493
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 3>its likely mission lifetime and budget. It feels like perhaps

494
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:39.759
<v Speaker 3>the smartest way to leverage all that prior R and

495
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.000
<v Speaker 3>D investment from the CIA effort and frankly reduce the

496
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.319
<v Speaker 3>overall risk for hwo's core science.

497
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.359
<v Speaker 2>However, we should probably ground ourselves and you the listener,

498
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.839
<v Speaker 2>in the actual timeline here. HWO isn't launching next year

499
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:54.079
<v Speaker 2>or even this decade.

500
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:56.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh far from it. HWO development is still very much

501
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.000
<v Speaker 3>in the early study and planning phases. Serious hardware can

502
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.000
<v Speaker 3>instruction and detailed engineering work aren't really expected to kick

503
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.240
<v Speaker 3>off in earnest until sometime in the twenty thirties, and

504
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:10.079
<v Speaker 3>the most optimistic launch window for HWO itself is probably

505
00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 3>somewhere in the early to mid twenty forties. We're talking

506
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:16.160
<v Speaker 3>twenty years out, maybe more. But interestingly, that long lead

507
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:19.240
<v Speaker 3>time is actually a major advantage for this astrometry proposal.

508
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:21.799
<v Speaker 3>It means there's still plenty of time, well over a

509
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.880
<v Speaker 3>decade potentially to fully finalize the instrument design, build and

510
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.000
<v Speaker 3>thoroughly test prototypes of things like the detector calibration unit,

511
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.680
<v Speaker 3>and figure out how to integrate the whole astrometry package

512
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:36.200
<v Speaker 3>smoothly into the larger HWO observatory architecture without causing major

513
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.359
<v Speaker 3>delays or disruptions to the primary coronagraph instrument, which is

514
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 3>still the centerpiece.

515
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.960
<v Speaker 2>So the underlying science case seems solid. The core technology

516
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.240
<v Speaker 2>is apparently quite mature thanks to the earlier THEO work,

517
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.400
<v Speaker 2>and the long HWO timeline actually provides a feasible window

518
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>for implementation. So the final decision really comes down to

519
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the HWO project managers, the scientific advisory committees, and ultimately

520
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.720
<v Speaker 2>the funding aidies. Like Massa, it sounds like a classic

521
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.559
<v Speaker 2>strategic decision. Do you stick rigidly to the original highly

522
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.240
<v Speaker 2>focused mission plan for HWO centered on the coronograph, or

523
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:12.839
<v Speaker 2>do you allow the mission's scope its scientific ambition to

524
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>grow a bit to incorporate this incredibly powerful dual purpose

525
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:19.480
<v Speaker 2>astrometry capability. Given the groundwork already laid, it.

526
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Really is a choice between perhaps maximizing the potential scientific

527
00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:29.039
<v Speaker 3>discovery space versus maintaining programmatic simplicity and sticking to the

528
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 3>original baseline. Integrating the astrometer undoubtedly adds complexity to the

529
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.440
<v Speaker 3>overall instrument package and the mission operations. There's no denying that,

530
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.000
<v Speaker 3>but the potential scientific payoff having hundreds of confirmed exo

531
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.119
<v Speaker 3>Earth masses to feed the chronograph, plus getting unique observational

532
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.640
<v Speaker 3>constraints on the nature of dark matter, that payoff is

533
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.279
<v Speaker 3>arguably multiplicatid it could be huge. It's definitely a major

534
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:53.839
<v Speaker 3>decision point that will likely shape hwo's ultimate scientific legacy

535
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:55.599
<v Speaker 3>long before it ever leaves the ground.

536
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:59.160
<v Speaker 2>It certainly seems to shift the perception of HWO, doesn't

537
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.240
<v Speaker 2>it from being primarily a specialized machine for analyzing atmospheres

538
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>to becoming potentially a much more versatile foundational observatory for

539
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.119
<v Speaker 2>broad areas of space physics as well well. This has

540
00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.680
<v Speaker 2>been a really fascinating look into the kind of high

541
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.240
<v Speaker 2>stakes planning and technological innovation that goes into shaping the

542
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.640
<v Speaker 2>next generation of big space science missions. We started with

543
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.079
<v Speaker 2>this fundamental need just finding a better and more efficient

544
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.240
<v Speaker 2>way to locate those small, rocky worlds that HBO is

545
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:28.640
<v Speaker 2>ultimately designed to study up close, and that let us

546
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:32.920
<v Speaker 2>down this path exploring an incredibly complex technological leap, combining

547
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.839
<v Speaker 2>that sophisticated detector calibration unit with the need for maybe

548
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>over one hundred statistical measurements, all just to reach that

549
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:42.839
<v Speaker 2>almost unbelievable point five microarc second precision target, and.

550
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:46.319
<v Speaker 3>Then we discovered this amazing bonus that this hyper precision,

551
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 3>initially conceived just for measuring planet masses accurately, it simultaneously

552
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.160
<v Speaker 3>gives us this completely new, powerful way to probe the

553
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.359
<v Speaker 3>universe on a much grander scale. It provides exactly the

554
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.599
<v Speaker 3>kind of leverage needed to observe vationally test competing theories

555
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 3>about how cold dark matter behaves in the hearts of galaxies,

556
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.799
<v Speaker 3>potentially resolving that cusp versus core puzzle has been nagging

557
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.920
<v Speaker 3>cosmologists for years. So this proposed astrometer, it really isn't

558
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.319
<v Speaker 3>just some minor add on. It feels like it could

559
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.720
<v Speaker 3>fundamentally shift the scientific identity of the habital world's observatory.

560
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:22.200
<v Speaker 3>It potentially transforms it from being a highly specialized, though

561
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:26.240
<v Speaker 3>important coronagraph mission into more of a foundational, dual purpose

562
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 3>powerhouse for both incredibly precise exoplanet characterization and fundamental deep

563
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:34.119
<v Speaker 3>space physics. It just seems to maximize the potential science

564
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:35.960
<v Speaker 3>you get out of one enormous public.

565
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Investment, and thinking about that dual use potential if one

566
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.279
<v Speaker 2>instrument developed primarily to measure a star moving just a

567
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:46.359
<v Speaker 2>tiny bit because of a planet sixty five light years away.

568
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:50.200
<v Speaker 2>If that same instrument could also potentially help resolve one

569
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.079
<v Speaker 2>of the deepest mysteries we have about the fundamental structure

570
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:56.440
<v Speaker 2>of the entire universe, it really prompts a final question

571
00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.319
<v Speaker 2>for you, the listener, to maybe mull over. As we

572
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 2>continue to pour billions into developing ever more sensitive, ever

573
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:07.359
<v Speaker 2>more precise scientific tools for space, what other profound, perhaps

574
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.400
<v Speaker 2>completely unintended discoveries might already be lurking, waiting to be

575
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:14.880
<v Speaker 2>made within the designs and development pipelines from missions that

576
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.519
<v Speaker 2>haven't even launched yet. Often the biggest scientific leaps seem

577
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.839
<v Speaker 2>to happen almost by accident, when instrument's built for one

578
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.519
<v Speaker 2>very specific purpose turn out to have an even grander

579
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:27.640
<v Speaker 2>application in a completely different scientific domain we hadn't anticipated.

580
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:31.359
<v Speaker 3>It's that kind of beautiful, unforeseen synergy that often drives

581
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.880
<v Speaker 3>scientific discovery forward in surprising ways.

582
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely well, thank you for joining us for this deep

583
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:40.400
<v Speaker 2>dive into the exciting future of space exploration and the

584
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.480
<v Speaker 2>potential of the habitable world's observatory. We'll catch you on

585
00:30:43.480 --> 00:31:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the next one.

586
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:50.920
<v Speaker 3>Last DA
