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Chum Chumbucasino dot com 27 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:00.679 eighty plus starts, conditions plus what everything else? 28 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.319 You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking 29 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.439 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 30 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:21.799 written about them, Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 31 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 32 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 33 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.040 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:45.079 Good Evening. At the end of the nineteen seventy six 35 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:49.599 football season, more than forty Harvard athletes went to Boston's 36 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:53.879 Combat Zone to celebrate. In the city's adult entertainment district, 37 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:58.400 drugs and prostitution ran rampant, violent crime was commonplace, and 38 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:01.879 corrupt police turned the other At the end of the night, 39 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:06.799 Italian American star athlete Andy Popolo, raised in the city's 40 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.520 North End, was murdered in a stabbing. Three African American 41 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:13.919 men were accused of the crime. His murder made national 42 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.599 news and led to the eventual demise of the city's 43 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:20.919 Red Light District. Starting with this brutal murder, The Combat 44 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.680 Zone tells the story of the Popolos families struggle with 45 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:28.039 both a devastating loss and a criminal justice system that 46 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:32.080 produced two trials with opposing verdicts, all within the context 47 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:36.840 of a racially divided Boston. Brogan traces the contentious relationships 48 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:41.560 between boston segregated neighborhoods during the bussing crisis, shines a 49 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:44.400 light on a court system that allowed lawyers to strike 50 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:48.240 potential jurors based purely on the racial or ethnic identity, 51 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.199 and lays bare the deep seated corruption within the police 52 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:56.360 department and throughout the Combat Zone. What emerges is a 53 00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:00.479 fascinating snapshot of the city at a transitional moment in 54 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.639 its recent past. The book that we're featuring this evening 55 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:08.680 is The Combat Zone, Murder Race and Boston's Struggle for Justice, 56 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.360 with my special guest, journalist and author Jan Brogan. Welcome 57 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.800 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 58 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:16.599 Jan Brogan, Dan. 59 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:18.599 Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure 60 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:19.039 to be here. 61 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:23.039 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this very, very 62 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:24.080 fascinating book. 63 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:25.560 Thank you, thank you. 64 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.120 You wrote that this book is a product of more 65 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:31.560 than ten years work. Tell us about the genesis of 66 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:33.360 this book project, where it came from. 67 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.000 I had written four murder mysteries before I turned to 68 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:37.560 this book, and when I was done with the last 69 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.479 murder mystery, I kept saying I knew at that point 70 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.400 I could write a murder mystery and I wanted to 71 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.199 do something else, and I felt like I could make 72 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:47.960 any book work, and I kept saying, I want to 73 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:51.319 find a story that really needs to be told. And 74 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.479 I said that enough times and enough cocktail parties in 75 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.639 Westwood where I was living where I read my kid 76 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.240 at the time, and a friend of mine I was 77 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:04.800 in Costco, said, jam, he writes screenplays, and I said, well, 78 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.719 I have written screenplays, but I've never written a successful screenplay. 79 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:10.719 And by that I meant not that he even got 80 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:12.840 made into film, even that I thought it should have 81 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.120 been made into a film. It was good, I said, whine. 82 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.319 He said, because Danny Poppolo needs a screenwriter. And I said, 83 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.160 why on earth does Danny Popolo need a screenwriter? Because 84 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:23.680 I knew him. He and my husband played basketball together 85 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.120 and we had oldest daughters were the same age. And 86 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.680 he said, because you remember that Harvard football player who 87 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:30.639 got murdered in the combat zone years ago, And I 88 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:32.839 was like, yeah, I did remember that. So I said 89 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.759 that was his older brother. So I went back and 90 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:38.519 I googled a trial and I saw there were two trials, 91 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.079 and I met with Danny and Francis Terrella, who's called 92 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:46.199 Dash and they had a director, like they had a 93 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.759 pretty successful director who had done Spen City and Home 94 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.439 Improvement anddy Cadiff, and they needed a screenwriter to do 95 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.959 the Obviously, they didn't have money for the screenwriter, so 96 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.519 I said, I will write it on spec if I have. 97 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.879 But I knew that I knew that most screenplays do 98 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:06.160 not get made into films, so I said, you know, 99 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.279 it's just a real uphill battle, so I said, but 100 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.079 I felt like I could sell it as a book, 101 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:12.839 So I said, I'll do it on so back, which 102 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.160 means you only get paid if it gets made into 103 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.560 the movie, which means pretty much you never get paid. 104 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.360 If I could write a book, and since I'm a journalist, 105 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.639 I have to have leeway to you know, the screenplay, 106 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.759 I'll do your way, but the book has to be 107 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.319 I'm a journalist, so it has to be the way 108 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.399 I see things. So we agread to that. We had 109 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:31.800 an agreement on that, and I wrote the screenplay and 110 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.560 I worked with Anddykative, who was the director, who was 111 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:36.920 really it was really even though I never got paid, 112 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.040 it was really a very valuable experience that I enjoyed. 113 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:42.319 And he never could sell the greenplay. You never could 114 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.439 get it made right. He couldn't raise the funding. He 115 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.759 wanted to be the director and the producer, I think. 116 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.480 So I started on the book, and so that was 117 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.800 like in two thousand and seven, I think, And I started. 118 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.519 Took me about a year to write the screenplay, and 119 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:58.439 then it took me another year and a half to 120 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.199 write the book proposal. And then my agent could sell it, 121 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.639 except he had one one publisher who was interested, and 122 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.600 that was University Press of New England. And they said, well, 123 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:12.120 we are interested. We can't give you an advance, but 124 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.600 we'd like you to write it on spec. And I said, no, 125 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:16.959 I'm not going to do that because that is just 126 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:19.639 an unbelievable amount of work. And even then I did 127 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:21.519 not know how much work it was when I said that, 128 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:25.639 because it was way or more than I thought. So 129 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.360 I put down the project for a couple of years 130 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.360 and I took a job at UMass and I was 131 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.319 working for the President's office in communications, writing speeches and 132 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.399 press press releases. And then I got an email like 133 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:40.279 years later from the University Press, New England. I said, 134 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:42.519 we want to go forward with this project. At this time, 135 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.439 they're willing to give you an advance that just like 136 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.000 what I emailed him, and he said, there was just 137 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.759 one marketing guy didn't want to do it. He's gone. 138 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:50.920 Now we wanted to do it, so they gave me 139 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.160 an advance. They wanted it in a year, and I 140 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.560 said okay, because I thought I'd done all the research. 141 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.000 It took me a year and a half, so I 142 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:00.959 got it. And then when they as soon as I 143 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.480 delivered it at the new deadline, which was a year 144 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:06.680 and a half April first, twenty eighteen, three weeks later 145 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:09.920 they voted to go out of business and I had 146 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.480 to find a new publisher. So it took me another 147 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.279 couple of years to find you Mass, And then they 148 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.040 wanted They said, we really love this because but this 149 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.600 is narrative. This is narrative nonfiction. And the publisher or 150 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:23.199 the editor University Press, had been a fan of my mystery, 151 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:25.480 so he wanted me to use a lot of those techniques. 152 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:28.439 So I said, well, I'm happy to write it a 153 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.439 straight journalism because it really didn't require that many changes. 154 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:33.839 But I put in those changes and then finally it 155 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.000 got published. So the whole thing start to finish was 156 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:37.600 about ten years. 157 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:42.680 Almost tell us about Danny and Andy and Fran tell 158 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.959 us about the Popolo family before we talk about how 159 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:49.920 Andy came to be in the combat zone. November nineteen 160 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:50.600 seventy six. 161 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.279 Okay, so they were raised pretty much in the North End. 162 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.160 They're Italian. There are both sets of Italian grandparents, and 163 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:00.879 all their cousins and aunts and uncles lived there. And 164 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:04.319 if you if you google the name Popolo in Boston, 165 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.639 you'll get like three Danny Popolo's. You know, they're a big, 166 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.800 big family, and they owned the grandfather one of the 167 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.680 grandfathers owned a business. The grandmother's family owned a business 168 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:19.879 provisioning with Italian provisions, provisioning restaurants. But they grew up 169 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.399 in a very small two bedroom apartment with the boys 170 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:25.160 in one bedroom, the parents another, and the fran had 171 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.000 to sleep on a pull out couch in a living room. 172 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:32.159 And they considered themselves incredibly, incredibly privileged because they had 173 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.759 their own bathroom, where the city was so poor at 174 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:36.000 that time in the North End, a lot of times 175 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:37.519 you get in an apartment, you had to share a 176 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.039 bathroom in the hallway with the other apartments and take 177 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.440 your you went to the public's baths. You know, it 178 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.039 was just a different era of the sixties and seventies. 179 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:49.200 Boston was a lot poorer than people can many people remember, 180 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.320 and so by the time Fran was like sixteen, the 181 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:54.440 father said, the parents said, all right, she can't sleep, 182 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.320 but she needed her own room. So they they finally 183 00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.960 found a house, you know, they could ford in Jamaica Plane, 184 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.240 which is another neighborhood of Boston, more mixed. It has 185 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.840 Irish and Italian and eleven eight. You know, it's just 186 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.440 a more mixed community. So the boys were probably maybe 187 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:12.279 twelve and fourteen or eleven and thirteen at that time, 188 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.000 and then they moved to Jamaica Plain, which is not 189 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.399 that far from the North End. But they all the 190 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.159 father worked in the restaurant. The kids would work there 191 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:25.240 in the summertimes, bottling olive oil. They would you know, 192 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:27.200 they went there to play sports all the time. So 193 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.039 they were very, very very proud of their North End 194 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:32.679 roots and really related to the North End. 195 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:37.320 You talk about the work, the work instinct that was 196 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.639 instilled by the father Andrew Sr. But also that despite 197 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:45.679 this the poverty that they encountered growing up, Andy had 198 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.799 always wanted to be a doctor, and so he had 199 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.159 made it to Harvard and so tell us about his 200 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.720 achievements and his athletic achievements as well. 201 00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:00.279 Okay, so Andy and Danny so Franta is the oldest. 202 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:05.159 Danny and Andy are only less than two years apart, 203 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.240 but a little less than two years apart, and they 204 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.120 always shared a room and they're always very close. And 205 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:11.679 even when they moved to Jamaica plane, even when Framm 206 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:13.799 moved out, they elected to stay in the same room. 207 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:17.120 They were very close. Andy, as the oldest son, was 208 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.600 just an overachiever from day one. He would just work 209 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:23.840 harder than anybody else to be the best. He was 210 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:28.919 also very skilled athletically, as was Danny. Really, Danny was 211 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.039 an easy going one and he was happy to just 212 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:35.960 adore his older brother. And they weren't competitive as brothers 213 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.159 can be. It was more like Andy was always trying 214 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:41.679 to boost Danny up and Danny was just happy to 215 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.360 admire his brother. They both were the parents. You know, 216 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:46.639 they're in the North End and which at that time 217 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.480 as the headquarters for the Massachusetts Mom and father had 218 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.200 gone to school with some of the Andreulo brothers. Andreulou 219 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:56.159 is the family that run the mob in the North End. 220 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:58.759 And you know, he came back for a marine. He 221 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:02.399 was offered a corner, you know, and he had very 222 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:06.360 respectively decline because he had really other ideas for his family. 223 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.759 One thing, he was a very religious man. The family 224 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.879 was very religious still is very very Catholic, very religious. 225 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.600 And he made sure his boys weren't going to be 226 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:20.080 drawn into those corners. So he had them in sports, 227 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:23.440 very busy all the time. They focused on education. Both 228 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:26.679 boys got into Boston Latin, which is a public school, 229 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.159 but it's like a private school historically. You know, Benjamin 230 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:32.759 Franklin went there, a lot of I think jan John 231 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.720 Hancock might have gone there. It's a theater to Harvard. 232 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.519 If you've got good grades in Boston Latin, which was 233 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.600 a very classically you got you got classical training and 234 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:45.080 you had a good shot of getting to Harvard if 235 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.639 you were near the top of your class. So that's 236 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.720 what Andy did. He was a three seasoned varsity athlete. 237 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.639 He got into Harvard and he and he just worked 238 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:59.360 harder than anybody else to excel. Like they said in 239 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.840 what he said, Boston Latin, he was in the basketball 240 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.559 court basketball team. He would he would run nine miles. 241 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:08.360 I mean, he would just run like crazy. Beforehand just 242 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.360 to be warmed up. You know. He just worked harder 243 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.279 than anybody else. He overstudied, he over exercised. He was 244 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:17.039 just the kind of kid who was like, I am 245 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.360 going to succeed for my family. My family's made sacrifices 246 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.039 for me, and I'm going to repay them. He was 247 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:25.360 very into his family, even when it was Harvard. He 248 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.559 would come home every weekend to spend with his younger 249 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.240 brother and maybe it was sure there are a few 250 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.360 weekends he missed, but he really loved. They were very, 251 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:34.919 very tight Italian family. 252 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.279 Now it's November nineteen seventy six and the varsity football team, 253 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.240 according to tradition tradition, go to the combat zone to a 254 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.240 strip club for a drink. So tell us about this 255 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:50.120 tradition and tell us about their travel into the combat 256 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:51.039 zone that night. 257 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.440 So this is the are they called the breakup party. 258 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.320 It's the You know that they had just lost to 259 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.519 Yale in the final game where Andy had gotten a 260 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.440 mild concussion, so he was told not to drink, and 261 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:06.240 he was not much of a drinker by all accounts. 262 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.200 He wasn't much of a drinker anyway. But Harvard had 263 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.080 a tradition they went from the Harvard Club, this very tony, 264 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.399 classy place on Commab. At the time, they had this 265 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.080 beautiful breakup dinner. Ethel Kennedy is there to give a 266 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.840 special award, trophies are given, speeches, lectures, they have but 267 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.960 you know, the drinking age at that time is eighteen, 268 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:32.039 so they have you know, a little cocktail hour, and 269 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.879 then during dinner they don't drink anything. Afterwards they have 270 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:39.480 their beer and they look at the reels and then 271 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.600 the final thing is they all the football players all 272 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:46.480 go to the combat zone or at last drink together 273 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.200 as a team. And this had been done, This has 274 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:53.159 been done for years. And one of the kids, one 275 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.399 of the football players, cousin or something, was a manager 276 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:58.679 at the Naked Eye, so he arranged for them to 277 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.399 have a private room in back in the back, in 278 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:05.159 the back bar, and the forty of them go down 279 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.120 to the combat zone and some of them go down 280 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.320 in a Harvard equipment fan and the equipment manager goes 281 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.960 as well. So this is something that you know, you're 282 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.759 supposed to do it your last night together as a team. 283 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:22.440 And it was crazy timing because the combat Zone had 284 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:24.399 just been in the news for all its crime I 285 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.279 mean it was crime ridden anyway, and that was kind 286 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.200 of allure of it in the seventies. It was exciting. 287 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.919 You never knew what was going to happen. It was dangerous, 288 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.159 it was wild. It was and it wasn't just Harvard 289 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:38.440 who did this. I have a friend who went played 290 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.840 the Boston college football team and he told me they 291 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:43.200 did it too. A lot of the colleges did it. 292 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:45.240 It was like, you know, we're going to go down 293 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.519 in the team as a team, so we're safe because 294 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.480 safety and numbers. And that's what they did. They went 295 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.200 to the combat zone and they had they watched the show. 296 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.639 They some of them got up at the stage and 297 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:58.080 danced with the stripper, in which case the bouncer came 298 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.840 out and said, okay, it's time to leave, boys, because 299 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:04.279 it was a closing time anyway, And forty or so 300 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.279 football players spill onto the street and the combat zone. 301 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.480 Now, just before we talk about the events that lead 302 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:15.039 to Andy Popolo being stabbed, we've got to talk about 303 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.360 the combat zone. In an episode that people might not 304 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.399 have listened to. About three weeks ago, the book talked 305 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:25.480 about Boston's the combat Zone. So briefly, tell us about 306 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:30.559 this experiment by Boston's social leaders to create this red 307 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.600 light district that was coined the Combat Zone. 308 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.919 And why so, Boston had had another red light district 309 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.159 called Scully Square, and they tried to get rid of it. 310 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.039 They used an urban renewal money to bulldoze it and 311 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:46.519 put the city Hall there. But when they did that, 312 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:52.519 those businesses that whole market need just moved down Washington 313 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.080 Street was called Lower Washington, where there were already some 314 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.240 theaters and some bars. There was already crime ridden in 315 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.240 the sixties, there had been a murder there. At one 316 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:06.279 point had been you know, family entertainment but was poor. 317 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.320 And that's where the navyman used to go to drink 318 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.080 when there was a navy yard in Charlestown's where all 319 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.759 the military went. And that's what and they used to 320 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:16.240 get into fights, and that's why it was called the 321 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.039 combat Zone in the sixties. Even before this, even before 322 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.759 it's an official red light district. So by the early 323 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.320 seventies there were thirty five sex related establishments there, adult entertainment, 324 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.039 and so there had also been a couple of there's 325 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.240 been a Supreme Court, a US Supreme Court decision, and 326 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.600 a state High Court decision, which made it very hard 327 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.000 to establish something as steen and made it hard for 328 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:46.799 cities to legislate against these businesses. You couldn't just kick 329 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:51.480 them out. So Boston came up with the idea. One 330 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.080 of the assistants said, well, what you do is you 331 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.600 can you can't keep it out, but you can restrict 332 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.720 it to an area. So they vote it to restrict 333 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.759 it to a four block area in Lower Washington which 334 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.920 is kind of bounded by the downtown and Chinatown, and 335 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.160 it's at the kind of the far edge of the 336 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.559 common and in this four block area were going to 337 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.079 allow it. And then they also and it was also 338 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.200 contiguous to Park Square, and that they grandfathered it. I 339 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.279 think there was a Playboy bunny club there and they said, 340 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.279 if you're there already, you can continue, but no new businesses. 341 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.400 So this created the combat zone, and all sorts of 342 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:31.640 promises were made. They were going to clean it up, 343 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.720 they were going to police it really well, they were 344 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.680 going to add new lights, and they did do a 345 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.799 couple of things. They tried to improve the signing. They 346 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.200 tried to work with the businesses to improve the signing, 347 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.359 but the businesses did not want to spend the money 348 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:47.759 on improvement, and the city didn't have much money, and 349 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.799 they just they were neglecting all the neighborhoods pretty much, 350 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:55.039 but they really neglected this one. And there's another factor. 351 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.480 At the time, the mob is big. This is like 352 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:00.839 the heyday of the Mob, and this is not far 353 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.799 from the North End, and pretty soon the mob moves 354 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.839 in and it's crime quadruples from the sixties to seventies, 355 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.799 and it's an area when you think about it, the 356 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.160 city is really poor at this time. Unemployment is fifteen 357 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.799 percent in the white neighborhoods and twenty percent in the 358 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:24.559 black neighborhoods. There's really two black neighborhoods, but it's very poor. 359 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.240 And the combat zone is a place where people you're 360 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:32.160 either there to go to a strip club, bisex, or 361 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.119 buy drugs. So everybody's carrying cash because these are it's 362 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.359 pretty much a cash It's more of a cash society 363 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.519 back then anyway. So pickpocketing and muggings are big, car 364 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:47.079 thefts are big. It's and the police are utterly corrupt. 365 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.480 And this is discovered only two weeks before these events. 366 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:54.880 The police commissioner himself, who had been brought in to 367 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.279 clean up corruption. Was very frustrated by the power of 368 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.359 the union and the agreements that were already in place, 369 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.079 and he tried various things to clean up the area. 370 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.640 And one of one of the big problems was that 371 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.960 the clubs had been allowed to hire or encourage to 372 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.480 hire cops for detail, for special detail. So you had 373 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.359 a lot of cops. You had cops sitting in bars 374 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.359 getting to know the owners and drinking for free, whether 375 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.839 they were on a rough duty. And this meant for 376 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.519 a lot of a lot of eye averting to crime 377 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.920 that was going on. One of the clubs, it would 378 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.119 later come out, was actually had found a way to 379 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.079 let their customers charge for blowjobs on their credit card. 380 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:40.119 And there was just there was there was sex going on, 381 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.839 not all, but in some of the clubs in alleys, 382 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.599 in you know, parking lots that there would be on 383 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:51.599 Saturday night there would be sixty prostitutes standing outside Charlie's 384 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.200 two o'clock lounge and there would be it was a 385 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.599 four block area and the people called it the the 386 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.119 drive through, where the car would just drive around in 387 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.559 a block and they would be in gridlock because there 388 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.440 was solicitation. They would stop, you know, the windows open. 389 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.759 Women would solicit through the open windows, drugs were exchanged. 390 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:13.880 It was just a mess. 391 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.839 Let's get to the situation, you say, just before this, 392 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.279 there is all this focus on the combat zone and 393 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:24.200 the corruption there and the crime that's there. So the 394 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.440 end the practice of police being able to work those 395 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.920 details to make extra money, and they want the police 396 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.400 available for the crimes that they say are rampant in 397 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.359 the combat zone. So let's talk about one of the 398 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.759 things that people had heard before, that about a ripoff 399 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.039 in this crime ridden zone involving prostitutes and pimps. Let's 400 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:51.400 just briefly mention this little scam before we talk about 401 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.559