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Show dot com. Everything's there. Want to welcome everyone back
to the Pekanyona Show. Benjamin Boyce is here with me
for the first time. He signed me on his show
and we recently met up in person, and so I thought,
we did, have you come on the show. Yeah, and
let's let's let's have a conversation. I want to talk
about your your path. Start off telling tell people about yourself.
Tell people you know as much as you're willing to
let let on. Did you come from the left, What
are you know? I mean, just go give some background,
especially about how you started in the whole streaming thing
and being on YouTube and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I grew up in California, Evangelical Christian and has
some pretty powerful experiences when I was really young, impressionable,
but I had what I considered direct experience of the
Holy Spirit very explicitly and powerfully in my life. And
uh yet, with that said, my parents were involved in
a cult, California cult and mind you know county in
San Jose, and that was very formative for how my
family and then how I consider group solidarity and group
identity and how you know, overarching religious identity can be
corrupted manipulated by powerful charismatic leaders and what forms that
relationship between a leader and his flock. But my parents
got out of that when I was five, though that
that's kind of a background with a kind of difficulty
with centralized authority, charismatic centralized authority, and politically. I was
kind of just a kid until I started delivering paper route.
I had a paper route. The news used to come
in these sheets that you would bundle up with a
rubber band and you'd drive around or ride around five
point thirty in the morning and tossing these papers into driveways.
And at some point in my teen years I stumbled
upon it was a little bit before my ten years,
there was this guy on the radio on AM radio
that was balking at the narratives that were being promulgated
by the papers in my hand. And this guy's name
was Rush Limbaugh, and I think he was just he
was a really small time guy, and eventually he went national,
but I was I would listen to him before he
went really national. I don't know how many how widely
syndicated he was. This was in Sacramento area, but I
remember listening to him a lot in my teen years
and he would have these little, uh what would eventually
become the foundation for a large part of the YouTube
community in the gamer Gate era, these anti sgaw rants
and screeds. He would talk about the Feminazis and you know,
the pet of people who are still just as idiotic
as they were back then. But he would bash the
left quite a lot, and I found him to be
pretty cool and funny. I remember when he had short
lived TV show and I was big into Rush Limbaugh.
But then I kind of grew up out of that,
went to Bible College, ended up in Chicago, really big city,
and explored life from a nineteen twenty year old's point
of view, doing a lot of experimentation. Got really fed
up with the church because I felt a huge disconne
disconnect between what people would propose God was and the
sense of holiness in the church, and it was really lacking.
My parents ended up in a very milk toast denomination.
My dad became a pastor within the Swedish Covenant Church
now just the Covenant Evangelical Church, very standard Christianity. You
sing songs, you do good deeds. But I wanted something more,
and so I went kind of searching for something more,
and I kind of bashed my head against reality. At
some point and found a spiritual practice that was from
the inside out. It was a direct contact with the
Holy Almighty God spirit. And then I wanted to be
an artist. I'm trying to fast forward. I wanted to
be an artist. I ended up working a lot in preschool,
just because that was how. I just found a job
working in preschools. And I was good at that. And
I remember there's this phrase, those who know do, those
who can't or don't know teach. And I ended up
in preschool realizing I had to learn how to be
a human being and really connect with what it is
to be in this world and history and body. And
I pursued artistic pursuits, specifically through novels. And I had
some heartbreak and I ran ashore or in the shoals
in my thirties and I just ended up and just
have a lost decade, lost all my ambition, lost, really
my connection to the world. Really wanted to escape from
the world.
Speaker 1: I was an interrupt Are you your gen x Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was born in seventy six, some kind of.
Speaker 1: I've said that. People ask as a gen x er,
what is the number one characteristic of gen xer? And
I said pretty much nihilism. Yeah, just something you're going
to fight with. At some point, every gen X or
is going to have a nihilistic phase that is either
they're either going to fight through or is just going
to stay with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think that's about?
Speaker 1: For me, it was being growing up in a Cold
War household where we're going to be bombed at any time,
so who cares?
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I guess there's that. And then
I think there's that coupled with the American hegemony. We're
kind of at the end of history. And when you're
at the end of history, there really is no future,
and there was really is no past. There's just this
eternal costco present and you know, blowjobs in the White
House and you know, you vote, And I remember longing
for the meaning that I had. Was inculcated to me
that the boomers had so much meaning when they were
young in the sixties. You know, they they fought the power,
and they had all these huge artistic achievements. Media was
at their fingertips. They had huge amounts of meaning and change,
and the nineties were just like okay, So so I
went and searched for meaning, mystical meaning, experiences. I think
gen X is really focused on experience. You can see
that reflected in one of the axioms or cliches that
we embodied. I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, right, But anyways,
I was really at the end of my rope. I
didn't know what I was doing or why my girlfriend
kicked me out of our house. My longtime girlfriend kicked
me out because I was just going nowhere. I had
to figure out something. Down the road from where she
lived was this tiny little college called Evergreen State College,
and it had a reputation of being really hippy dippy college,
but at the core of the learning experience was a
deep emphasis on individual, self guided study, where you could basically,
if you committed to yourself to it, you could get
a master's degree education. You can get away with anything
or nothing at Evergreen. It was really cheap. I was old,
never gone to college, so I got a lot of
pell grants and stuff, and so I devoted myself to
my pursuit my ambition, which is I really wanted to
write this one book. And I had this idea for
a book when I was nineteen, and I kept on
hitting my head against that trying to get that done.
And so when I went to Evergreen, this was twenty thirteen,
I was thirty six, and I was on fire to learn.
And when I walked in there, I was surrounded by
these kids, and the kids were not really there. They
didn't even know why they were there. And the second,
my first day, I came in in the middle of
the semester, so I was trying to catch up. So
I hit the ground running. I asked everybody all these
questions about the reading. I did all this extra reading
and stuff. And my teacher the second day of class,
she pulled me aside. She's like, I know you have
been a teacher before, so don't take this wrong way,
but could you not ask so many questions. You're kind
of centering yourself in the discourse. I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
I thought we were here to learn. I felt embarrassed,
but then I talked to my other I went around
and apologized. Tell the people in my seminar. They're like,
what are you talking about? Like, you really helped me
because it was just after Christmas break get back into
the groove of things. And my teacher pointed out specifically
this one girl who happened to be black, and this
is important. The identity is important. That happened to be
black girl who the teachers really concerned wasn't really onboarding
with the college experience, and she was basically a teenager
and was really not academically acute. But my teachers like,
I really, I am really concerned with this one girl
in particular and giving her the room, the space to
grow and to discover your own curiosity. And the second
the class after that, that girl who has pointed out
just took a nap for the whole class. It was
like this writing seminar component, I'm like, whoa, Okay, this
is just high school plus. But that's fine, because Zebragreen,
I can get away with anything or nothing. I'm just
gonna do a bunch of independent study. And I pursued
my work, my guess kun work, my building Schrowmann, my
super super work of fiction. And as I was pursuing
that the college. First of all, just to backtrack, when
I stepped on campus, it was like stepping back to
the mid nineties in the sense that there was these
banners about in the patriarch, patriarchy harms everyone and everybody
had these all the professors that know war and I
stopped the Iraq War. It was like that rec ward
had been kind of done at that point, but they're
still like anti war, anti patriarchy. I'm like, this is
really kind of weird and crusty. It's like this little
time capsule of like you guys used to be edgy
and hip, and now you're just kind of mossy, waiting
for the next revolution. And what happened was that twenty
fifteen and then twenty sixteen happened and this guy named
Donald J. Trump got elected to the highest office in
the land.
Speaker 2: And I remember this was one of my.
Speaker 3: Sorry, just to backtrack, I had given up on politics
in two thousand and three. When Bush got back in
I was living in Portland, Oregon. I wasn't necessarily a progressive,
but I was rather on the liberal side of things,
except I remember during that election, Portland was really on
fire to make gay marriage like the center platform. I'm like, one,
this is a total like this is Carl Rove like
playing you guys like a puppet master. And secondly, I
don't think this is you could still say this out loud.
I'm like, I don't think gay people should be married.
You can have a partnership whatever, legal, But marriage is
a totally different category than homosexual relationship, even if it's
a permanent homosexual relationship, just the category marriage is an
important category. It's the foundation of this civilization of human propagation.
So it's special. That's a special thing. But anyways, Bush
got re elected, and I was really upset by that.
I'm like, I don't why do I even care about
this stuff? Just John Carey guy doesn't care about me.
This is a whole game. I just completely forgot about politics.
You know, I was mildly I felt good when Brock
got elected. I don't know exactly why, but I thought
it was like, oh, this is this is the thing,
this is the cool thing. And little to little did
I know decades later, when I stumbled on Curtis Jarvin's
early work minches Molbug's work, he had mapped out the
whole thing. He had seen the whole thing that I
had gone through. But anyways, Donald Trump gets elected and
everybody on campus was decimated. I remember that that election day,
me and my friend we were on the internet together
and we were watching all the streams and getting all
the data and like chatting with each other. It was
like a big long party all that Tuesday, and I
remember there's this graph. I don't know if I'm inverted
or not, but Hillary clinton chances of success were like
ninety seven percent and Donald Trump's were the inverse of that.
And over the course of the day, like it went
dick and I was so happy because fuck that bitch man,
that woman. I was a Bernie guy. I was really
a Bernie guy because I thought, you know, he was
bringing something new to the table, and Donald Trump really
turned me off.
Speaker 2: That's kind of where I was.
Speaker 3: That's how I saw things, even though I was I
was on the gamer gate or the gamer side of
gamer Gate, but Trump was a little too far. Bernie was like, Okay,
something might happen. Hillary Clinton totally stole that total corrupt
and I just wanted her to suffer. And I was
so glad. I walked on campus the next day and
everybody was like waiting for the Gestapo to just swing
down of the vines and take all the migrants out
of the classes and stuff. They were so upset. Everybody
was like who like trembling. They had this big rally
in the middle of camp, in the middle of campus
at Evergreen there's this plaza called Red Square No Joke,
and they all gathered there and there was something weird
going on, like the amount of vitriol and hatred and
the weird way in which it was being spoken about.
It's like white people's fault. The whole thing was racialized.
They were really really racializing the whole thing. And I
had seen Evergreen. They had a new not professor president
who came on in twenty fifteen, so a year before
that election. He came on and I was working in
the media department, so I was on camera. I worked
on camera covering a lot of the workshops and seminars
and the orientations. The first message to campus George Bridges
gave was that racism is the foundational, kind of original
sin of America. And even though we've ended slavery and
we've done the civil rights thing, there's these glaring gaps
and achievement and in wealth and in prosperity that are
all due to racism. And we need to dedicate everything
to figuring this out, to solving this problem of privilege
and power. And I'm like, that doesn't quite make sense
to me. And then I was listening to the professors
talk about this postmodern critical theory, woke stuff. And it
was one really offensive to me because they were singling
me out and just assuming so much about me because
I was a straight white male and you'd have to
go through and they introduced the whole pronoun thing. I
didn't understand what was going on. It was just by fiat,
you had to say all of a sudden, now I
know where you had to say your pronouns. I'm like,
what do you think is in my pants? And why
do you want to know?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Why does that matter? And I remember when they started
these workshops about privilege. They started the students who were
not the brightest bushels in the box. We're taking that
as this is an opportunity. Empowerment is an opportunity to
be an asshole. There's nothing holding me back from voicing
my grievances and taking all of my resentment out on
everybody else because there's this perfect framework for it. And
would shut down conversation along sex lines. And the females
were into it because they had been hoodwinked by feminism.
You could just end all argument, all debate by just
saying I'm a woman. I remember they had this they
had this protest free the Nipple on campus about that time,
and I think it's not.
Speaker 1: For an it's never a nipple you want to see.
Speaker 3: Well, it's so what all the girls did was they
show up without their shirts on and start screaming into
the microphone. And if you could just like ignore their voices,
we were just like sitting there smoking, like, oh, that's
totally totally go. There's no laws banning the nipple. But
they wanted to have a protest and stuff like this
is this performative protest. But I remember after Trump gets elected,
the students started to agitate for these demonstrations and they
got really crass. I was covering an event. I was
on microphone and camera for an event that was just
celebrating the new chief of police. This female cop from
the local district or county, Stacy Brown, and they were
just gonna invite her there all her family, come have
some cake, introduced her to the community. She was an
Evergreen grad, she's a female. I was really keen on
kind of a version of social justice. I got to
know her. That was rather reasonable. But she's a cop,
so she understands how things can happen and safety and procedure.
But the kids showed up, or the students showed up
with these horns and screaming, and they were denouncing the police,
and her family was there. They're like, fuck you, you
fucking pigs, and they're just taking over the whole event
and then eating all the cake and laughing about it.
I'm like, this is really sick, and so I wrote
a letter to the president. I'm like, you're teaching all
this stuff about privilege and identity and it's not tied
to any virtues or values, so it only there's no content.
There's no human content in this. It's just you are
this box. I am that box. Therefore I should have
dominance over you, because you have dominance over me. But
there's no sense of what a human being is. And
so this progressive dogma could work when everybody's on the
same page, when they're all really nice and kind and
want the best for everybody, but completely gamable by anybody
who's a sociopath. Anyway, So that year twenty sixteen to
twenty seventeen, I watched as the I'd watched the professors
and the administration make evergreen all about this social justice
echo chamber and dog pile from the Professorriot would dogpile
on each other if you weren't radical enough. They had
this really hyper leftist ratchet going on where even they
tried to cancel a tranny because the training's like, you know, listen,
I have problems with identity. You guys know that, but
but you guys have this, you have this habit of
saying that this is the most racist place in America
and there's no evidence that it's racist. And then they
all dogpiled on him her saying, well, you wouldn't know
that because you're white. You're blind to it. Because you're white,
you know, because you're intersectional blind blindness or whatever. Yeah, blinders.
But anyways, to kind of wrap up, eventually, in the
spring of twenty seventeen, finals were about to happen, there's
all this energy, all this cooped up energy, and Evergreen
would always get crazy in the spring because it's such
a it's in Olympia, Washington. It's really oppressive. It's dark
and moody and rainy, and it's just all bottled up,
and the sun starts coming out and the clothes would
fling off and all this energy, sexual and otherwise would
be released. And you could just feel it and it
was all channeled into this racial dynamic and we can
get into it. But I made a documentary on this. Eventually,
the students found a reason to protest, and it was
a made up reason. There was some miscommunication. One student
made fun of another student because they one student wanted
an all black class and the other student, who was
Native American, said I want an all white class, and
they had a big dust up about it, and then
somebody made some so the police got involved.
Speaker 2: And then there were.
Speaker 3: Some kids who had made the threats were asked to
just give their side of the story and they're like, well,
we're being detained when it's just like you come over
and you tell us what's happening so we could figure
out what's going on. Well, we were detained and Evergreen
hates black people. And then the student body, probably about
five percent of the student body, but it became more
once it became a happening, decided to take over campus
for about a week and they had this whole week
long protest where they would protest Brett Einstein first because
they found some emails that he wrote questioning why we
would make every professor at the end of the year
grade themselves on their anti racism, like give these personal
confessions about how anti racists they were. And he's like, well,
you could just use that to hire and fire people
based on this completely subjective category. And he wrote the emails,
and the student body, probably egged on by certain professors,
made him the first point of contact for this whole
week long protest, and it got to a point where
the student body, like more and more started inviting all
this element from Olympia, this Antifa element, to come to
the campus. They ended up taking over campus, like barricading
the administration in the administration building and marching them all
into this room and then having the struggle session with
all these demands. They had all these demands for like
ten extra feet in the equity center because University of
Washington had like three hundred feet or four thousand feet
for their equity center, but we only had three hundred feet,
you know, like the because University of Washington's really big,
everybody's really small. They're really not safe on campus because
they saw somebody at Walmart with MAGA cap, so they
know that they're just surrounded by these racists and the
fortunately or unfortunately depending on who you were in this situation.
The students live streamed the entire thing, and their behavior
was over the top, and it was imminently clippable and streamable,
and any rush limba with a camera and a microphone
could just collect these clips and make hay. It was
just perfect hey for YouTube. And I saw what was
happening on the Internet part of it and on the
campus part of it. And how I got involved in
this medium was that Evergreen was being taken as just
basic content for anti woke stuff anti woke hadn't really
taken off at that point. Was called these SJW cringe compilations.
It was the cringiest of that kind of material. And
I saw Sargon and a lot of these streams take
this content and make fun of it, but they didn't
really understand what was going on. And I had access
to all the footage of all of the lectures and
the workshops and the trainings that were instilling this very
hyper religious cult like echo chamber and instilling it into
the faculty and into the students, and they formed a
perfect orbors of just this feedback loop of utter resentment
and rage. And the people who had taught the kids
that every institution was racist and you needed to disrupt
and dismantle them. Were in turn disrupted and dismantled because
their system was itself racist, which they even say, like,
we are as complicit and white supremacy as any institution
in the West. And there's this beautiful Vice mini documentary
where one of the vice guys goes and interviews the
college president, George Bridges, and the guy interviews George Bridges says,
you know, the students say you're a white supremacist? Is
that true? And George Bridgess is like, now I'm not well,
I might be depends on what you mean. And the
guys like this language just doesn't really make any sense.
And so to encapsulate the whole story, basically what happened
in twenty twenty in the Summer of Love had already
happened at Evergreen and a very distilled, tight venue where
you could actually study all the different dynamics, and they
recorded the whole thing. That the students recorded the whole thing,
The administration recorded the whole thing, and because the students
streamed it, I was able to get all their footage,
and because the administration was a public college, I could
Foia by hook and by crook, I could get all
the information is all public data. It was all owned
by the state, so I was able to get all
the emails, all those videos, all those lectures, and compile
and go through like bit by bit by bit the
whole gosh darn mess. So that's how I got involved
in it, and that so we can leave that and
go wherever you want to go. That set me on
a thread of questioning these progressivism and then liberalism, and
then what it is to be wes what is the
concept of the West. And that's how I ended up
where I am now covering and interacting with people that
I'm interacting with now, like trying to understand the foundations
of not just the mess, but what causes the mess,
and not just our prosperity, but what causes the prosperity,
and how those two things interact with each other.
Speaker 1: What would you say is the most left wing position
that you held, Like how far left do you think
you had gone?
Speaker 3: That's a version of the question I like to ask
when I asked when I talked to the d R
whatever they're called right now, the true right, I'd kind
of like that phrase, though they won't scale the serious right,
the serious right, Yeah, the.
Speaker 2: Illuminated right.
Speaker 1: You gotta do the eyebrows when you do when you
say serious right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I like to ask right wingers, like how far back
in time would you go before you're considered left wing?
Like everybody's kind of left wing at some point in time,
Like do you want to go back to feudal society?
You know, like where's your breaking the Enlightenment? Where's your
breaking point at a certain point? It doesn't even make sense. Well,
I think that there's two different kinds of It depends
on what you mean by left, because the left can
mean liberalism, egalitarianism, radical egalitarianism, or it can mean proceduralism,
certain tenets like the blank slate, the way that government
can be run by considering everybody as a rational agent
that can kind of invent themselves or reinvent themselves in
any given election system or season.
Speaker 2: About the heat map, the heat map.
Speaker 1: Were you ever on that part of the Were you
ever that heat map where you cared more for the
people who were furthest away from you than the people
who were in your immediate orbit.
Speaker 3: Uh No, But that doesn't mean, like there's probably a
third dimension like do I even care? You know, like
this kind of the nihilistic do I even care? Like
how much care do I even have?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: But like I said when I I always kind of
because of my training in Russian bah you know, school
of ethics and politics, and also my Christianity. I think
Christianity has a universalism to it. But the universalism is
bounded by the dimensions of the creator and the created,
like the individual and God, and then everything is bounded
by that. So I can't care about anybody if I
don't care about myself, and I can't care about myself
if I don't extend my care to other people. But
how much can I reasonably care for other people? How much?
There's a hubris in the heart of progressivism, and the
phrase is effective altruism. If you look at the Gilded
Age in America, like these these barons created modernity through industrialization,
and then once they solved the world, they said, well,
we have to solve more things. They took this problem
solving mindset to humanity in general, and they would think, well,
we have to solve hunger, and then we have to
solve population. We solved hunger, now we have to solve population.
So actually now we have more hunger. There's net more
hunger in the world because we're feeding more people. And
there's this idea that you can solve problems, you can
solve the world that I think is at the heart
of leftism in a way, and I don't think that
that's possible without massive amounts of technological prowess. But with
every progressive technological leap, there becomes more and more problems
to solve. And if you have that problem solving mindset,
you erect these huge structures that then devour the world
in this seek of in the search of ending hunger
or ending this problem, they problematize the whole thing. And
it's a vicious feedback cycle. And I don't think that
it is I think it's hubristic. I think it's Faustian.
I think it's Luciferian. And I have all those components
in me because I am a Western man, so I
am Luciferian, I am Faustian.
Speaker 2: And how I.
Speaker 3: Think there's two types of foulism, one which is I
can solve all these problems. The other is my spirit
needs to understand the world. There's this I wish I
had it memorized. There's this book by Couri McCarthy Blood Meridian,
and there's this character, and it's one of the most
startling characters in American fiction literature, the Judge. And he
has this notebook. He's going around, he's documenting everything. You
draw pictures, and then he'd burn the pictures and stuff,
and everybody one person asked him, like, why are you
doing this? And he has this phrase, I wish I
had it memorized about. I like, that which exists doesn't
have my consent to exist until I understand it, Like
there's this I have to approve of things through my
knowing of it, through my domination of it. And that
spirit in its in its deleterious or degenerator form, is leftism,
but it's also rightism. It's Western, like the Western modernity.
Even though we try to escape from this left right polarity,
we could problematize it. But they are two sides of
the same coin. And I understand to a certain extent,
though I completely disagree with the application of the term
woke right, but I do understand that there are there
is a spirit that is similar between the left and
the right, and the centrist the woke centrist. If they
start calling one, I'm against the woke left, and now
I'm going to invent this term the woke right, and
they're the woke center. They still have this hubistic Fostian thing.
If I understand, if I can categorize the whole thing,
I can solve all this problem. I can solve these
political problems. I can solve these problems of humanity. And
I think that there's this other manner in which we
engage with suffering that Christ lays out, where we don't
try to solve the problems. That God is created in
this world. We can take responsibility for the problem. Say
we are fallen. I participate in this fallen world, but
you don't. The Catholic Church doesn't set up charities Modern
Catholicism aside. But they don't set up charities to solve hunger.
They set up charities to ease the suffering of those
who suffer. And there's a different humble relationship that then
is empowered by the Western imagination and the Western Faustian spirit.
Once it's organized correctly, like God is going to take
care of all these things, I can take care of myself.
And in order to to pay it forward or to
fulfill the gifts that I've been given. I need to
help other people in some manner, some way, shape or form.
I need to be helpful. I need to be a contributive,
contributing member of society, right, And that's kind of rite coded,
to be a contributing, hard working member of society. It's
I to write coded, but that is still I still
owe something to society. Society doesn't owe me anything, but
I have a debt to society and I need to
pay it off some way, shape or form. I really
problematize that in a ill in a sense, and that's
my problem. That's why I do the interviews and not
get interviewed, because I do the Jordan Peterson thing. Well,
it depends on what the word mean means.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The best critique, the best justification I've heard for the
term woke right is that the left is seeking to
tear down historic medicine, and so is the right in
some way. So is like the serious right, or you know,
the is you know my I've said it probably won't
happen in my lifetime. I won't be responsible for it,
but I just want to contribute, as you know, as
much as I can to the destruction of the post
war consensus myth, the post war myth. I want that gone.
And I can see how someone can go, well, I mean,
you're just basically trying to do the same thing that
you know that leftists do when they tear down the
myth of the founding or you know, the myth of
you know. So, I think that's probably the closest, the closest,
the best understanding of how somebody can call what is
probably one of the worst terms ever horseshoe theory, but
you know you can, Yeah, I think horseshoe theory.
Speaker 3: Is like, oh, horsesho theory.
Speaker 1: Like horses there for the same Well, these are the
same people, The same people who use the term horseshoe theory,
are the same people who think that like socialism in
Spain in Spain pre Spanish Civil War is the same
thing as a socialism that was in Germany in the
nineteen thirties. They're not near, They're they're not even close
to the same thing. And I'm too lazy too, and
I'm too bought into capitalism as the way through and
the way out, it as our Western religion that I
just have to lump all socialism or all quote unquote authoritarians.
You know, oh, Germany fought Russian World War two. Well,
that's just too authoritarians fighting over who's going to be
the main authoritarian, and they just break everything down to
the simplest explanation. And I think that's what horseshoe theory is.
It's just a simple explanation for a complex historical subject
that people aren't willing to read and study about.
Speaker 3: Well, it's really really scary. One of the major events
in my corner of the Internet, which is so I
came into this business at the dawn of this idw
thing intellectual dark web. Jordan Peterson was on the ascendancy,
and he peeked out beyond anybody's imagination, and he had
people in his orbit that were all kind of tied together.
And for some weird reason, Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris
would sell out stadiums talking about truth. Right, So there
was a kind of a magic moment in that, and
it had a bunch of effects. The podcasting new media
came of age, you know, it was just kind of
dicking around on the Internet, and Carl Benjamin Sargon of
the cod really exemplifies this maturation from I'm going to
make ship posts and articulate an argument against my enemies,
the SGAWS, and then start to well, actually, I have
to understand what I'm fighting for. I have to understand
this liberalism thing, and then kind of disappearing for a
while and coming back with an education and really with
a set of tools. And James Lindsay and I did
a lot of content during the woke era covering the
you know, the genealogy of this woke stuff. And I
was tied to postmodernism, tied to critical theory, and we
kind of we parted way as me and James at
a certain point because I started to talk to people
with different points of view than this liberal constitutional conservatism.
And one of the main events that happened, it happened
about a year ago. Darryl Cooper, I believe you guys
have spoken on.
Speaker 1: Your show, right, Yeah? We Yeah, Daryl and I know
each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you guys know each other. When he
went on Tucker Tucker's a freaking genius. He's such he's
a low key, he's such a trouble.
Speaker 1: Maker, he's such a he somehow has figured out how
to ship post on his podcast like.
Speaker 3: Major, Like he's just brilliant. I would love to interview
him one day. He's on my bucket list someday. But
when he set up Cooper to fall by calling him,
he just knows how to stir shit, and Tucker's very adept.
Speaker 2: He doesn't.
Speaker 3: He doesn't purity spiral, but he'll cause them to show
the friend enemy distinction. And he did that with Cooper
about a year ago, and Constantine Kissing decided that that
was well. Constantine had. He's part of Triggeronometry. He's very,
very successful in the same business that I am. He's
just an interviewer, but he actually the one.
Speaker 1: He's actually the one who said who talked about how
both sides want to destroy myths, and that's actually the
person I okay, I heard articulated the best. I mean,
other people have articulated it poorly, but he actually did
it in sort of a good way.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, well he went yeah. And so Cooper
saying offhandedly that Churchill and was totally in context, is
just a conversation starter, you know, just something a little
edgy to get a conversation going. And the way that
the so called open minded marketplace of ideas set took
his conversation starter of let's do an experiment, a thought experiment.
Churchill is the worst guy in World War Two. He's
the chief felain. What do we have to do to
make that make sense? Now? Whether or not you believe
in it is one thing, but just proposing that as
a thought experiment should be open game. It's a rich way.
We all know. Alternative history is such an interesting topic.
There's this subreddit alled history, which was really kind of
cool back in the day, but he eventually all became
about Every other post is about Hitler, every like that.
We can't get around, like why are we like, okay,
what if Hitler, you know, like took opium instead of
rent free?
Speaker 1: Rent free? In the majority of mankind's brain, he's just
living the rent free eighty years after he's dead. In
the majority of mankind's brain.
Speaker 2: He won.
Speaker 3: He won World War two. And being able to enter
into that conversation, or the inability to enter into that conversation,
shows the limit of the classical liberals and the classical liberals,
some of which are the left left mees, and a
lot of them go on a journey of not making
it inside of the institution, and so started criticizing the institution.
And when the institution really needed to be criticized, BLM
and covid era, a lot of these classical liberals were
on the ascendant. And when the conversation started to drift
away from being anti woke, that's where I parted ways
with them, because I want to entertain deeper levels of
questioning and they don't. They want to cling to a
certain mythos and so they, through their horses theory, say
anybody who is eroding this myth or questioning this myth,
or causing this myth to be questioned is an enemy.
And then they'll go on these rants about how the
friend enemy distinction is Nazism. We need to avoid that
while they participate in the same thing, and so these
blind spots arise. It's really fascinating to me. I forgot
how we pushed off on that, just the Cooper thing,
the mythos thing, and then well, where do we go
from now?
Speaker 1: And yeah, you talked, you just talked about how how
Tucker caused everybody, how he can do that, and then
how basically by Cooper just doing a real quick hypothetical, Yeah,
it caused it exposed the classic.
Speaker 3: It exposed the friend enemy distinction where there had been
assumably no such friend enemy distinction. Now COVID had done
the same thing, and I watched this the idw was
over as soon as it was named. Eric Weinstein created
it and destroyed it in the same article.
Speaker 1: So that sounds like punk rock, John, I forget who
said it was. Someone said punk rock died the first time,
someone said let's start a punk man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so so the main that's why the main
questions now I think are Britain and Israel.
Speaker 3: Those are the two main questions. And until we figure
out the right way to articulate those two stories, those
two myths, that's kind of where the conversation is stuck
right now. How do we have a Britain for the
British or in England for the English? Rather, Sorry, I
was schooled on that when I had Connor Tomlinson on
my show just a couple of days ago. How can
we square Israel for Jews and not have England for
the English? How do we have any for the English?
Now America is a different problem or a different story,
But to those two miniature stories will help guide our
conversation on our quest for American identity. And I think
American identity is always going to be really dynamic because
it's too big and too shallow to really be something
that people will live and die for. And so I
have a bus route right now, I do podcasting, and
I have a little I work for a little school
district out in the country here, and I spend a
lot of time just driving through the country. And there's
something that's just nagging at me this year about the land,
Like the land and the people have a communication that
is much deeper than politics, but it is the most
political thing. And so I go online and I hear
all these stories about Israel or Britain or the woke
or the woke ride, or like all these big economic
questions and these political questions. But it doesn't really make
sense until I can square it with these people that
I drive their kids around live in this place, and
it's got its own character. It's got its relationship to
sunlight that's different than the West side of Washington, and
there's not a lot of money out here, so it's
not really cosmopolitan. So there's a particularity to these people
and America, something that I try to really understand is
how America is tied to itself by these roads. And
you can drive down the same road one hundred times
and not really understand how this part of the road
turns into this part of the road. But there's all
these little chat I go over the hill and I'm
in a different area and it's tied to this other area.
But there's there's these places where it's neither this place
nor that place, and you can kind of feel it changing.
And once you start to understand that this huge land
mass has all these different pockets, and then these people
fill up these pockets and become a part of the pockets,
and then our culture adapts to that. Our mode of being,
our spiritual our awareness. Spirituality is basically just our awareness
of reality. It all is shaped by those containers and
they all kind of flow together by these roads. And
America is a story of pavement, of connecting all these
things through all these different levels. Trains and then pavement,
and now technology, these landlines and then these satellites. But
we're all still kind of these creatures that are inside
and outside of reality, and we get swept up in
these big moments. I guess I'll end here the Ida
came together, and it broke apart and broke apart in
successive waves by these different topics that would break it apart.
Dave Rubin, who I don't admire at all for a
variety of reasons, but he was instrumental in platforming Brett
and therefore platforming me and getting the Stewart giving the
Evergreen Story traction. He was all about free speech, and
then October seventh happened, and a week later he's like,
free speech needs to end, like here's where freedom of
speech ends, and self serving, So like, okay, well you
get yours, how do I get mine? Where's my ability
to make the exception? And the classical liberals want to
be able to make the exception. They want the institutions back.
I want some institutions because we have so much infrastructure
that requires a ton of shit, ton of competence, but
it also needs work ethic, and it also needs love
and care. It needs somebody who cares enough and is
is fulfilled enough by the meaning of their own life
to take care of more and more people to lift
up to run these power plants. And so we're living
at this this My wife and I we talk a
lot about it, and our political conversation always kind of
ends by, well, no matter what scale is the problem,
No matter what, we can't have a king, we can't
have democracy, we can't have this or that thing because
of the scale. Well how do we scale back? We can't.
So we're like at this inflection point. And then whatever
AI is going to do with that, I don't know
what it's going to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the uh, it's always going to come down to
And I don't care whether you're the IDW you're the
classical liberal, the James Lindsay crowd. It's always going to
come down to individualism versus collectivism and the individual. The
classical liberal wants to concentrate on the individual until someone
challenges classic liberalism, and of course they tribe up, but
they the issue. The issue I see is that when
you mentioned Israel, you may you know, and using England
as an example, is that I think a lot of
people will look at Israel and go, look, seventy million
people died to prevent exactly what you are. And then
after the war, a lot of people who had money
and had influence and had power have bragged about the
fact that they wanted they wanted every other nation in
Europe and in the West and America to not be
an ethno state, but to be overrun and be multicultural.
And it just so happens that a lot of those
foundations and a lot of those individuals have Jewish last names.
And that I think is another thing that goes to
the woke right. You know, it's like, this is something
you'll see even quote unquote right wingers say because well,
when you when you're talking about one group. Oh and
I heard Tucker Carlson say this in the Nick foyte
Nick Foyante's interview, and it was one of one of
those things where Tucker said it, and I'm like, yeah, Tucker,
you're just wrong. He said, you can't judge people. You
have to judge people as interdividuals. You can't judge people
as groups, because you know, a woman doesn't give birth
to a group. And I'm like, except for Sarah and
the Jews, and the Jews looking there like we were
giving Sarah gave birth to us. We're a group. We're insular,
We're we're a closed society. That's why we can't be
that's why we can't deal with infiltration. That's why we
can't self criticize because as soon as we self criticize,
we we start to threaten the cohesiveness of what we're doing,
of this project. And I think that's another place that
the Wolk right goes to, is you go to this
individual versus collectivism. And now you see a lot of
the people, a lot of the right, you know, the
serious right in Europe and in the United States, going yeah,
this individualism has has basically destroyed us while we're being individuals.
There's one group over here and another group over here,
and another group over here that are coming together, and
they're just destroying us because we can't come together. And
not only can't we come together, because it's just not
in the European you know, Europeans naturally go towards individualism.
It's illegal for us to come together. What banner do
we come together under? Do the Irish now just with
the Irish, to Spanish with the Spanish, the English with
the English? Or do we say okay, white Europe And
as soon as you say, oh, white Europe is going
to come together, well, then that has that has to
be destroyed. Even though every other group, every other group
is acting as a group. MM hmm.
Speaker 3: It's such a it's I just had Nick land On.
I was he was so gracious to me.
Speaker 1: You were let me tell you something. Of Oran is
a friend of mine. I love Oran, but your interview
with him was you know, it made more sense to
me it there was something, There was some way you
were able to corral him and keep him focused that
I don't think Oran was, And especially when Oran had
had him with uh with Dugan. Yeah, that was just
all over the place.
Speaker 3: And really yeah, yeah, blame I blame my interview with
land On. Land He is such a galaxy brain guy.
For some reason, he had found my work and he'd
listened to me, so he already kind of knew me.
So he came there and he brought him to me.
He brought himself to me. I didn't have to go
to him, not in a scheduling manner, but he brought
the conversation to my level, and he trusted me. He
trusted it within that boundedness of connection. He just he
liked me. There's so you can do so much in
a conversation if you like somebody. And just as a
side point, there's these cancelation campaigns, soft cancelation campaigns by
the uh the anti woke crowd. We're like, who are
you platforming? Well, we don't want like the kiss it
when Tucker had points on and the Babylon b guys
who were deplatformed and then replatformed by Elon or now,
well we don't we don't want to that. You can't
talk to these people. But are you?
Speaker 2: Are you challenging them?
Speaker 3: Are you? Are you asking tough enough questions? That's what
people said about me interviewing Dugan because he's a Satanist
or whatever. But did you ask tough enough question? I'm like,
you don't understand what my art form is. I don't
challenge people. I don't have the power to challenge people.
I only have the power to listen and to meet
people where they are. And I have to be agreeable.
I don't have to agree, but I have to be
agreeable in order to get to the next level of
the conversation. I don't want to argue. I'm bad at arguing.
I'm bad at debating. But I don't like it either.
I want to go deeper. I want to get into
understanding who this person is because that and that goes
back to what we were talking about what I was
talking about with Christianity is the transcendent comes through the imminent.
We participate in these these really high level discussions by
by going through who we are, like why do I
believe the way? Why do I think anyway? So Land
talked about this really interesting study or theory or maybe
it's data, I don't know. About Western Europe, there was
a ban on cousin marriage, and that genetically altered us.
To have outgroup preference and to have that heap map
is a byproduct of Christianity in a certain form saying
don't marry your cousins. And so we were allowed or
able to scale in this way of having room for
the individual, having distance between me and my clan, having
this ability to trade ideas and goods with people that
are not like me, and at some point scale corrupted
us when we started to interact with these groups who
don't behave that way, are not programmed genetically that way,
and so they those groups have certain strengths, And I
think it's it's almost like we're at this point where
we want that, we want to be tribal, but we
just there's something about it that is foreign to us.
Speaker 2: We're kind of.
Speaker 3: Like like on the other side, we're kind of thrust
out of Eden. In this way, this faustian aspect of
us that we wrestle with give us, gives us so
much power and freedom and the ability to explore, the
ability to not need. But it also it has this
we send ourselves into space, the space of nihilism and
the space between planets. We just do that, and so
we're always kind of like reaching out. And I think
a part of our divorce rate is because of that.
We just don't we're just like you are you and
I am me? And how do we we go to
counseling to get all these communication tools? So we proceduralize
this feeling of closeness when we we're just outside of closeness.
We're just outside of it. There's something to the Western
mind and spirit that is that's just who we are,
and so we universalize and and I don't until we
accept that about ourselves, we can't solve that problem. And
until we we accept that about ourselves, we can't. We
need the classical liberals doing their thing and then through
them talking them off of that totally autistic or overly
emotional ledge back to some sort of react, well, okay,
what how does that make sense? We're not blank slakes.
That group is different. I don't need to judge them.
I can still have those I can have. I have
progressive lenses. I have this joke, this meme about the
progressive where I can see things really close and really far,
but like the middle distance is kind of like weird,
you know.
Speaker 2: And and.
Speaker 3: I think there's there's this way where we are called
to be bigger, be greater, and so tribalism, which some
people call racism, is always going to be beneath us
in a way, like it just it doesn't quite work
we go overboard with it, or we can't really collectivize
and we can't outgroup correctly. I don't know, there's this
way that I kind of see their point, but I
also see the dr point. But I also say, well,
how does Europe reform? We were at a beautiful event
and I talked to one of the event organizers and speakers, Skilos,
and he talked about neo feudalism, and he contextualized the
project of what they're trying to allow for young men
to grasp at is this relationship to time that is
much greater then line go up. Then you know my
own like, how do I retires? Like how do I
create a legacy? How do I How is my name
going to be remembered in a hundred years? And it's
it's it's going back through. It's my family, it's my child,
it's my relationships with my community and building back up
from that. So it's that that Faustian spirit that's really
grounded in the particular, and and and it requires us
to have a ton of patients, and a ton of
ambition and a ton a shit ton of work ethic.
Speaker 1: So feudalism basically tied people to the land, and that's
something that has been engineered out of us. It's you know,
we you know, if you grow up where I live
right now, where I don't live where I grew up.
I chose very strategically to live where I live right now.
But if you if you grew up here. A lot
of the people I know, they're not looking to leave.
They know that this they're tied to this land. They
don't invest in like I'll talk to people, you know,
I talked to a friend of mine. He's like, my
family has never invested in stocks. We always just buy land.
And we buy more of the land of the town
and everything, and that's something that ties people to the land.
Feudalism also tied people to the land. It basically made
sure that your your children would be would be a part.
You're not going anywhere. And the problem is is that
we've been engineered to believe that no line go up.
If your bank account is not constantly growing, if your
investment account is not constantly growing, if you're not trying
to move into like the the hot zip code, you know,
the the hot zip code, then you're a failure. You're
a failure. You're you're not living the American dream. And
it makes one wonder whether what exactly what exactly we
bought into, you know, okay, capitalism, Yeah, you know the
average person. You know, I may my life. I may
actually have a better life and live a richer life
than a lot of kings did five six, you know,
a thousand years ago, fifteen hundred years ago. Okay, But
what does that? What does that mean? What exactly does
that mean? Am I passing on a kingdom when I die?
Am I what exactly am What exactly are people being
bred to do? And it seems to me that people
are being bred to perpetuate a system of financialization. We
don't have a manufacturer. We're not a manufacturing country. We
don't make things here. Yeah, we make things here, Okay, Yeah,
but you know, the exception proves the rule. We're a
financialized We're a financialized society. Financialization is naturally high time preference.
And if you're living in a if you're living in
a society that is naturally high time preference, that starts
to rub off on you and everything becomes high time
preference in your life, even your own behavior. I've heard people,
you know, I've heard libertarians say like, yeah, I came
out of libertarianism in arcoal capitalism, and I think we
talked about this when I was on your show, and
the they have this idea that if people could just
be more wealthy, that they'll make better decisions. And I'm
like that history doesn't History doesn't tell me that. History
tells me that when societies become more wealthy, they become
more degenerate. And you may not think, you know, the
average person may not think they're wealthy, but compared to
to ninety nine point nine percent of the people who
ever lived, they are insane. They're abundantly wealthy, and you know,
how how are we living? How are we living? You know?
And I asked that, and people immediately want to go, well,
I'm doing great, you know, I'm following. No, it's it's
we How are we living? How are we living as
a society? How is your how is your group living?
If your group is living you know historically, as Thomas says,
we we want to live historically. We want to have
a historical outlook on how we live. If that's fine,
but you have to understand that we live in a society.
As much as people want, you know, hate to hear
that because they want to be individuals, the society is going.
If society goes to shit, it is going to come
for you, no matter how well you're doing. Yeah, it
wasn't a question.
Speaker 3: No, no, what one part of it made me think
about the Israel and Britain question. I spoke with one
of the Lotus eaters or ex Lotus eaters work on
Carl's project. He's a conservative's a brit And no, it
wasn't Connor. It was a I don't want to shoot,
I don't want to stop, the look it up. I'm
really bad with these little things.
Speaker 1: Is he still on loadus? Heater?
Speaker 3: No, he left, but he Uh. What we ended up
talking about was like, well, British identity and what is it?
What are they fight? Josh firm and he would talk.
We were just talking about his life and his outlook
and and he kept on talking about going home to
the English countryside and the shire. And I think Israel's
identity is about this land, you know, like that their
whole claim and why it captures our mythos.
Speaker 2: It's that land.
Speaker 3: That land means something in Britain means something as a
piece of land, and America means something as a piece
of land. But I'm outside of that. I'm totally.
Speaker 2: Just not.
Speaker 3: Connected to the land. I drive. We just I've bought
my first house, well bought whatever that means. You know,
I'm paying paying the bank for something repeatedly till I
die or we move. We just move like I'm not
really nothing's really mine. I buy things and then I
sell things, and I drive, and I watch these kids
who grow up, and there's these little there's these little cultures,
and every bus route has its own little group of
kids who kind of know each other and they behave
in different ways. There's kind of lower class kids and
higher class kids, and they behave in different ways, and
they have different responsibilities that are kind of put upon
them from the parents. And I don't know how long
have you been living where you live?
Speaker 1: We bought this place two and a half years ago.
I've been in Alabama about three and a half years.
Speaker 3: Three and a half years, yeah, like, is that long enough.
I moved to Portland in two thousand. Then I moved
to Olympia in twenty ten, and we finally moved from
the west side of the state to the east side
of the state. And it's a different place and the
people are different. But am I changed. I wrote this
one story kind of subconsciously thinking through these questions about
this Western identity, and one of the characters he was
able to go from. It was set in like eighteen
twenty France, and at that point there was these different
places in France who they still had different languages. They
hadn't been modernized. What modernity did was it broke Europe
into these states and impose these languages on these states.
And France had all these tiny little regions and then
they forced everybody to speak French. A very particular, engineered
form of French at that where they dropped. That's when
they started speaking funny because it was higher class to
speak in this way. But this character was able to
go to this completely distinct people and just fit right
in with them and like vibe with them, and they
vibe with somebody else. But who was He wasn't any person.
It was this kind of this key master, right, this
kind of not necessarily postmodern, but there's a postmodern aesthetic
where I can relate to these people. I can relate
to that people. I can relate to this people, and
I can kind of feel the difference. But I'm missing
something of that particularity myself. But at the same time,
I have a condensed form of particularity in my individuality.
I'm Benjamin Boyce. I have a way of that I speak,
way of being that is a little bit more distinct.
So I do have a particularity, it's it's more granular.
But I'm I don't have that rootedness. I don't know
if I'll ever have that rootedness. I'm almost fifty. I
don't think I'll ever I'll ever get that. I think
there's a reason why gen X isn't going to have
the White House. Like we are kind of we're not
a lost generation. We're kind of a meta generation. We're
kind of the footnotes and the headers, you know, we're
the kind of the scribbles in the marginalia. We're like
the marginalia generation. And so we have an ability to
be outside and so our I think our purpose is
to is to really help formulate where the next generation
is going. We're not going to have a point. I
guess we have Tucker, right, Tucker's a gen X, you think, yeah,
so we have the commentariat, we have a we have
a we have an ability to to take what was
and give it to the next generation. We have the ability,
we have the flexibility to kind of vibe with the kids.
We can use their memes and we can get away
with not being so too cringe when we act like
childish ship posters. We can do our we can do
this gitzo posting. But we're strangers in a strange land,
and I think that that that has an impact on us,
but it also gives us the responsibility to urge or
to guide guide the guide the future.
Speaker 2: In some way.
Speaker 3: We have a limited window where we're going to be relevant,
And we're only going to be relevant insofar as we
give the tools, the analysis tools, the critiques, and then
the path towards rootedness to the next generation, even though
we we only know it because we're missing it. And
I'm speaking universally, so of course it'll break down to
any given person in gen X is going to have
more rootedness. I do.
Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself right wing? Okay, now, right wing?
When I say that, I'm not talking about the French Parliament,
I'm not talking about Republican I'm not talking about I'm
talking about Yeah, well, here's a good one. How would
you define right wing? Do you think under your definition,
under the definition that you understand whether you are and
when would you say that you cross that rubicon if
you did?
Speaker 3: I guess right wing is on the side of order,
right that nominalism anteenom nomanism. Now I never there's certain
words I can never retain.
Speaker 1: It's a meanism means against the law.
Speaker 3: For the law.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so I'm I've never used the term nomianism.
I've always used the term antinomianism.
Speaker 2: No, so I'm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's order, but there's the judges. I mean go
back to Israel, go back to ancient Israel. There's a
period of time, there's a book called Judges where Israel
was going off track, and then there wu be these
people that were called to set it aright, and they
had to set it a right for a particular time,
for under particular circumstances. I think Samson is the only
one I've really retained, But maybe Esther's in there now.
She has her own book, Judith.
Speaker 2: Maybe.
Speaker 3: But they come in during a period of crisis, and
they're flawed characters, which makes them brilliant characters. So they're
more than mythic. They're legend.
Speaker 1: Oh, David is the most obvious, and they have that.
Speaker 3: They have that. It's like Trump, who's like, no, he
was he was saved from the bullet Charlie wasn't. Trump
was why Dave Smith came to town and did a
really good set, Like I was really surprised. He did
a lot better than I expected. I didn't think it
would be bad or good, but it was really good.
He had such presence this comedy sketch, and he talked
about how much he dislikes Trump viscerally, but he voted
for him because how could you not like it's obvious
that God wants him there for a certain time, for
particular purpose. So we if right wing is about order,
if right wing is about law, well where does the
law come from? And who adjudicates the law? Solomon is
a fallen profit. He's probably the lowest prophet I've heard
in a certain sophistic way of articulating the profits that
Solomon's the satanic one. He's the one that that is
on the very lowest part of the hierarchy of the world.
He's in the material level. But even the material level
has a judge.
Speaker 1: He reigns during the good times.
Speaker 3: He well, and well good times, you know what God means.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So so I am right wing, but I'm for a
right wing that's attenuated to the to the spirit of
God and the spirit of the age, and and that
takes a certain person to be able to do so
I am kind of I ascribe to the Great Men
kind of version of history.
Speaker 1: Carlisle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And there's heroes that come at a certain point
in time, and there's certain circumstances that would be considered
left wing or right wing, depending on how you would
view them. I need to have Thomas on He scares
me because I got in trouble, well, I got strong
armed by certain people with certain hefty amount of power,
and because I was talking about with people that you
shouldn't talk about on certain questions of certain ethno state
or maybe not in f no state, I don't know.
But Thomas doesn't give a shit about that, and I
have to Thomas.
Speaker 1: Thomas is probably when it comes to that group, He's
probably the most level as far as you know. I'm
much more open to having a discussion and throwing everything
out on its table when it comes to that group
than he is, only because he sees them as already
being defeated. He doesn't really see them as being you know,
it's basically all over but the crying at this point,
I mean, they're basically every country in the world save
two it looks upon them and is just, you know,
utterly disgusted. And in this country, you know, they've drop
below fifty percent approval. So when the boomers go, I mean,
what do they do? And I used to say, well,
what they'll do is they'll they'll do a false flag
or something like that, you know, a Muslim false flag
to get them back. But people wouldn't believe it. People
aren't going to believe it anymore. I mean normies were like,
as soon as Charlie Kirk got short, Normies were shot.
Normies were like, well, why did Israel kill Charlie Kirk.
It was like the day later there were you know,
there were normy YouTube channels going why did Israel kill
Charlie Kirk? And You're like, well, what what what do you?
What do you? So they couldn't even do they couldn't
even get away with a false flag. Now half the
country would be like, yeah, we don't believe that. I mean,
the government would still act and everything, but there'd be
nothing behind it. And they don't. We don't even really
have a military anymore. It's so it's okay, what what
what would happens? So yeah, I don't think there's any
fear to have when it comes to having Thomas on.
Thomas is a you know, he's a philosopher.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I just wanted to say, like, he's not
allergic to certain forms of discourse that are not allowed.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, certain, Well you put him, you put him
up on a on a panel in front of a
room full of people. He's going to perform, but he
means every word of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I just I I need to have him
on now I know what to ask, like what is
what are the dimensions of living historically? So right?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: What is right? Like the right way? What is tradition?
Like right wing is pro tradition? Well, which tradition? My
tradition is leftism. My tradition is modernity. I spoke with
with Dougan and he's like, I'm anti I'm pro tradition,
anti modern I'm like, well, modernity is my tradition. What
do I do? I can't you know a lot of
the discourse around the post liberal rite. I just try
to get us all to a position like, well, no,
well we're postliberal. There're still liberals. There's certain parts of
liberalism that we are actually trying to save from itself
because we want certain aspects of it we want. I
think it's embedded in who we are. It's when we
criticize ourselves for being deracinated and being anti tradition, we
need to realize that that's our Our tradition is post tradition.
So how do we Where do we go back? Where
do we go back? We want we want a Walmart
and a Costco. Well we don't have We're we understand
the language of everybody else around us, but we still
want the Costco.
Speaker 1: Well do you think that is why, since especially since
twenty twenty, you've seen so many people embrace Orthodox Christianity
and and Catholicism is because there's a there's a tradition
there that that predates basically the Enlightenment, predates the Reformation
which led to the Enlightenment, and they.
Speaker 2: And well, I mean.
Speaker 1: It seems it seems that people like and also there's
an identity with it. You know, doctor Matthew R. F. L.
Johnson always says Russian is Orthodox when you're you know,
when when the Bolsheviks sought to destroy what Russian, what
it meant to be Russian, they destroyed the Orthodox Church.
That's the first thing that had to go. So there
is identity, you know. It's like like historically Spain, what
do people think Catholicism? You know, so there are groups
you know, same with same with Ireland. So what is
uh you know, what is the yeah is that how
people are embracing tradition by going back to that, and
then you have people going back to pagan you know,
jumping jumping over twelve hundred years and going to paganism
and going, oh, this is this is what my family practice. Well,
I don't know, you know, maybe you don't know it's
twelve hundred years ago, but sure, why not. That's what
it seems like when when you see this, this phenomenon
happening is is that is one of the ways that
people are saying, Okay, I'm going to embrace tradition and
I'm going to reject modernity.
Speaker 3: Well it's it. I don't know who was some big
name who started going to church. Maybe was Joe Rogan
or something, I don't know who. It was, like, somebody
asked him about why it's going to church and he said,
it just works. So it's not about the belief structure
so much. Is that it gives you a script. It's like,
have family, believe in God. You're a sinner, ask for forgiveness,
take care of your family. Ask for forgiveness, take care
of your family. You, yourself, as an individual, are less than
what God wants you to be, and you need to
go through the steps that every human being is called
to go through in order to be purified and resonate.
Harmoniously with the living spirit of God, which transcends history,
that can root itself in history through the human animal,
through the family. It solves the question of what a
man is. It solves the question of what a woman is.
It's really interesting to go to the Orthodox church, you see.
I mean, there's a Greek one down the street street
I went to a few times, and the women are
very woman lay in a very particular way. I was
like their shape and their dress and their behavior, and
then see their relationship to their children. And then you
see them men are shaped in a certain way and
behave in a certain way. They stand in a certain way,
and everybody's fit together. This little nativity scene like copy
and pasting, copy and paste it in infinite variation. You're like, oh, okay,
that makes sense. And then they're all going through this rudimentary,
a redeemed form of ancient Judaic ritual. Right, there's this sacrifice,
but we don't do the sacrifice anymore because it's already made.
So there we're post we're post temple in a way,
and so we're we're part of it. And that's the
interesting thing about the West and Judaism is Orthodoxy's take
on Israel. It's take on the things like, no, you
no longer have authority, You're no longer the special one.
Everybody participates, everybody is at the table now, and here's
how do it. They have a very interesting take on it.
And the more the more you look into the see
I don't you see things the way that the Catholic
Church has been manipulated by certain ethnic group.
Speaker 1: Vatican re Vatican Vatican two was the two Catholic churches.
The Vatican two was the Catholic churches Nuremberg. They had to,
they had to change. They had to. They could no
longer have the attitude towards towards the Jewish faith that
they that they had until this time. They can no longer.
When in the Latin Mass, when the Gospel is being
brought from one side to the other, the subdeacon is
no longer covering his face because the gospel is blind.
You know, the Jews are blind to the gospel. He's
acting as a as a representative, acting as a representative
of the Jews as a whole. Who are you know?
I use this term for for effect, But it's also
true that they're Antichrist, and you know, That's one of
the problems is is that in Vatican Two you had
Nostra Taatee, which basically was, oh, we're not We're no
longer going to say sure, you're just a different path
to God. And you know, even Israel Shahak in his
book Jewish History, Jewish Religion, who was an Israeli Jew
where it is he came out, His family were in
the camps. They moved to Israel. After he lived his
whole life in Israel. He wrote in his book that
Judaism ising what you think it is. It's basically a
polytheistic religion. They believe in multiple especially through the Kabbalah,
and many of the rabbis believe in multiple gods. And
the there's a there's almost like a sex a sex
kind of sex religion among Yeah, sex magic happening there
amongst female and male gods. And yeah, that's well. I
mean the Catholic Church basically through Vatican Two being infiltrated
by certain groups. One group in particular, had to you know,
well they were convinced to drop this story. Now. You know,
when I go to the Catholic Church, I never hear
pray for Israel. I never hear anything like that in
the churches that I go to, but I'm sure there
are some around, but yeah, there's I think it's one
of those things where a lot of people think that
when the Catholic Church does something and when the Pope
says something, every Catholic falls into line. And usually when
the Pope says something, every Catholic goes, yeah, I don't care. Yeah,
unless you're speaking ex cathedra and he's saying, you know,
this is what the new doctrine is going to be.
Most Catholics are just like, yeah, oh, you're talking about
taking in refugees, because we don't care about that. We
don't care what you say. Yeah. Why So I was like, why,
let's see. Baptized as a baby, grew up in Catholic Church,
was an altar boy, went to graduated Catholic school, went
to a Jesuit school, actually fell away after high school.
Typical typical story of an inner city Catholic, especially post
Vatican two. Went to started going to a Baptist church,
then a Presbyterian church, and then a Presbyterian seminary. But
I felt the calling back to the Catholic Church when
I moved here, and I found out that in the
middle of Alabama, where there are nothing but Baptist churches,
there's a Catholic church. And when I walked into it,
I just felt I knew I was home. I think
that I think that Christianity and faith also has something
to do with ethnicity. And my half of my family
is Spanish and half of my family is Polish, and
they are you know, Polish, Hungarian, Slovakian, They're both sides
are Catholic. And I feel more comfortable in a Catholic Mass,
with the order, even with the with a with a
new Mass, which is you know, I'd rather I rather
like the when we when I when we were in
uh when we were in Portland, I was able to
go to a lotin mass up there that was that
was really nice. I like the order of it. And
you know, a lot of times when I go to
and my wife is a Protestant, and when I go
to the Protestant church, I feel like there's a certain
level of chaos happening in that. You know, there's I
like the order of it, and that's just the way, you know,
it's just who I am. It's just something that's in me.
So yeah, I think that that's what it is. And
you know, people people can fight and be like, well,
if you're Catholic, you believe this and that's not what
the Bible says and saw the Scriptura and saw the
fide and everything like that, and I'm just like, okay, yeah,
how about it? You do you? Oh? Well that means
I can't trust you. Okay, have about it?
Speaker 3: You do you?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think there's some things that there there are we're
suffering under something that is like this imminent threat. And
if you're not willing to put aside like a five
hundred year old thing, you know, it's like, well, then
I don't. Then we don't need to get together. I'm
not I'm not a Democrat. I don't need I know,
And I'm not one of these people who's like, oh
I need a million people on my side. No, I
need like twenty or twenty five good people who I
can trust. That's about it.
Speaker 2: Trump is.
Speaker 3: Has some how tied together those factions on the right.
Nick Land explained it as a trichotomy. There might be more,
might be less. It was one of my better interviews
in the entire seven years I've been doing this, specifically
about the right wing and try to figure out what
is going on on the right. I was drawn to
the right because they were they were doing something other
than being anti woke. There were being something other, you know.
I spoke with James is a paragon for good or ill,
and I love the guy personally. We just have a
tremendous beef onlines going on for a while now. But
he wrote a book with Helen pluck Rose, as you know,
upstanding classical liberals. It's called Cynical Theories, and they go
through and they break down the whole postmodern critical theory,
grievance studies stuff, and then you get to the end
they're like, well, what else is there? And it was
like reading a pamphlet from nineteen ninety Democrat convention. It's
like civic nationalism. Maybe we need some civic religion in
there somewhere, but not too thick, not too thick of identity,
because that they we can't touch identity, we can't be tribal,
but we have to come together, you know. And I'm like, well,
what else is there?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: So you go and you read other critics of progressivism,
and Jarvin led me to Burnham, and Burnham has those
that Machiavellian's book is absolutely essential reading to understand not
the not Well, there's the not left and then there's
the not liberals, and the liberal mind has a hard
time understanding the not liberals. You know, Machiavelli is just
a bad word of them, and he's the it's probably stupid,
but I think he's basically the Darwin. You know, like
fundamentalist Christians can't comprehend Darwin. They're going to fight against evolution,
and you know, then they're up Ship's creek when they
do that. And then classical liberals they're going to try
to fight against Machiavelli, fight against Schmidt. But they just
don't understand themselves. It's not prescriptive, it's just this is
how the game works. And and and so Trump comes
in and he articulates this vision in a heroic manner.
He becomes the embodiment of the spirit of America and
he's set against these huge systems. He smashes through the media,
and he gets his first term, and then they destroy
him with COVID, with the lockdowns and with Biden. Somehow
they just totally destroy and the riots. Michelle Obama egging
on those riots is so disgusting. The Democrats would stop
at nothing, They would destroy the country to save it
from Trump. And they they had the they had the imagination.
But he broke through that again. He almost gets shot.
He breaks through it. He's he has that one me
like I am the chosen one.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: It's like even he kind of knows it, but he
treats it lightly. He's got the mandate of Heaven and
he kind of understands it, but he kind of just
lets it rest lightly on him, and he ties together
the whole thing. And what happened when he was about
to win this all happened about a year ago, the
Darryl Cooper thing and then the astroturfing of this woke
right term. So woke was no longer our enemy. Now
let's fight against ourselves. Let's fight for the scraps. Let's
not build anything. The classical liberals are like, we can't decon.
We have to go back to this World War two narrative.
It doesn't work anymore. This rules based order putin is
just like, no, that's not how real history works. Real
history works by certain calculated political moves. And some people
will call themselves classical liberals, but they only do that
in retrospect. They do it because they want and then
they justify power afterwards, or they clean up power afterwards.
Speaker 2: So the.
Speaker 3: Transitioning from anti woke to post woke, and I don't
know what's going to happen. Progressivism is or the left
is changing its tactic, it's changing its form, it's decreasing
the amount of wokeness in it. It kind of understands
that the tides are turning on a cultural war level.
So the real work it kind of shows itself, and
that the reaction to Fuentes, how Tucker is able to
incite these purity spirals on the right and to show
who is trying to grasp after power but don't isn't
worthy of power. So what's going to happen after Trump's
big ten approach happens. I think the left is just
going to take it back over because the left has
introp on its side and this weird organizational prowess, this
procedural prowess on its side. So we have a limited
time while the tide is down to kind of look across.
It's like like an estuary. When the tide goes out,
there's all these different critters from all these different regions
have the ability to kind of intermingle, and then then
the tide's going to go back, and so we have
a very limited time to make connections and to figure
out how to create life rafts and different to kind
of understand our ecosystem a little bit before it comes
back and technology goes forward and all these different things.
Speaker 2: So I'm just I.
Speaker 3: Guess my work now is just trying to listen to
the spirit of the age or the spirit coming through
the age for what's the interesting conversation. And you can
kind of see what anti wokeness was an interesting conversation.
Libs of TikTok Era SJW TikTok compilations, Now that was interesting,
but it's not really interesting anymore. I think even the
Left is kind of done with their mutants in a way,
so kind of I'm grasping for different tools and whatever
you said Thomas says about living historically, I guess I
guess that's kind of what I'm trying to understand and
connect with, and that requires me to have a different
understanding of time and end of history than I have had.
I guess that's where I'm kind of like stretching or reaching,
grasping toward.
Speaker 1: I assume you think that if, like in twenty twenty eight,
if the Left gets back into power, that's going to
be you know, Biden targeted right wingers, his cabinet, mostly
his his attorney general, well his attorney general who there
seems to be ethnic grievances going on there. But you
know what Daryl Cooper said recently when we had him
on a side podcast called The Inquisition, was that, you know,
whatever you think about JD Events, you want JD Events
to get elected in twenty twenty eight because it gives
you at least another four to eight years to build
what you want to build. To build, you know, if
you want to build, you know, something outside the system
that will operate as the system. And I think going forward,
what we're looking at is we're looking at breaking down
into tribes. I just had my state tribes, local areas, states,
city states, possibly and the ad Mike Maxwell on and
he's the uh, the founder of Imperium Press, and he
just put out a book called The Tribal Future of
the West, and he makes the argument that everything's breaking
down into tribes now and people are going to start
especially right wingers, are going to start finding their tribes
and they're going to you know, look at areas, you know,
I mean, look how many people are moving to Idaho
that that are adjacent to us and and to other
areas like that. And while people are doing that, while
people are saying strength in numbers, you know, we all
we don't all have to live in the same in
the same building like the Branch Davidians, you know, but
we can all live in the same area. Harder to
take us out by a drone strike that you know
that eight years And like I said, no matter what
you know, you say JD events and people are like, well,
you know he's in with Peter TiAl and it's palents
here and he really isn't our friend. Then he'll want
to kill us and everything. So Peter Tiel is like
this mastermind who is going to you know, well, I
mean then just I mean literally, just give up, Please
give up, and just stop talking. If you really feel
that way, you you've given up, And why are you online?
Why are you talking about this stuff. You should be
building your cabin in the woods and you should be
looking to hold out for you know, hold out for however,
long you want to or just end it right now.
I mean, what is the point. I mean, you're you're
not going to be happy, You're going to be miserable,
and you sound miserable. And most people sound miserable when
they do this, when they talk like this. But you know,
the way I look at it is, Yeah, I have
to agree with Darryl. You get you know, jad Vans
gets selected in two and eight to twenty twenty eight,
and I think that that is something that even right wingers,
a lot of people quote unquote on the right, but
at least in conservative ink and a Republican party don't
want because they see him is not being you know,
a friend of a friend of Israel, whether he is
or not, whether he's a secret super double agent whatever
you people, people, I'm the serious right think quote unquote then,
but I think that it you know, it's really just
the future is not this government, especially in its form,
So you want it to die. You want to disconnect
from it, and you want to literally the only reason
to even care about who gets elected is is whether
that person wants you dead or not. The only reason
your friends would get elected into the government is so
that they can make some money, they can build some wealth,
and they could run interference for you have possible if
a regime gets in there, that's that's that's hostile to you.
So you know, the way I look at it is,
you know, you know, three years from now, I'm hoping
that I just want people to get elected who don't
want me dead. Yeah, and that's that's about it, you know.
And I'm not saying that I'm going to be their
greatest cheerleader. I'm going to do like I do now.
If Trump does something good, I'll say he did something good.
If Trump does something bad, I'm going to say he
did something bad. That's what I've been doing all along.
But yeah, I mean, I just see the future as
people coming together under the banner of American you know,
American heritage or whatever. I'm I'm up for people doing
whatever they want to start breaking up into groups because
you know, trying to The way I look at the
United States government is and the form of government we
have right now is like a car. Okay, you have
a car. I have an old car. I have a
car that's over thirty years old now, and it's truck.
I have a truck that's over thirty years old, and
I want it to stay on the road, but there
will get to be you know, And so if it
breaks down, I have a choice. If it's not working anymore,
I have a choice. Do I fix it, try to
fix it, or do I look at it and I go,
it's beyond fixing. It's time to scrap it. This thing
was beyond fixing a long time ago. And you know,
the great thing about hindsight is you can look and
you can go. This thing was beyond fixing thirty years ago.
This thing was beyond fixing fifty years ago. It's been
operating in one way my whole life, and that way
is oligarchy and to as an enemy to people who
you know, seek to live a more traditional life. Well,
however one wishes to define that. So yeah, I mean,
I'm just I'm just looking for the future as far
as who's on my side, Who do I have a
lot in common with? What can we build and can
we just get to the point where there's somebody, you know,
there's going to be somebody who's going to come into power,
who is going to want to harm us. The further
we can kick that can down the road, the better.
But in the meantime, we don't try to prop up
and keep the system going. I'm all you're doing is
prolonging your demise. You're just making it worse. You're just
you're strengthening a system. You're strengthening an organ that at
some point somebody is going to get in charge of
and use to try and hurt you. So why are
you trying to prop it up? Unless you're going Unless
Trump is going to defeat all his enemies in the
next three years and we won't have to worry about that,
and then we can just sing Kumbai Yah. But that's
not going to happen. I think we've seen that.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we live in this blessed land and time and history.
The since World War Two, like, we've just been living
life on easy mode in so many different ways. And
I try to hear the classical liberals anxiety about anti
semitism and about questioning World War Two and questioning the
rules based order. I try to try to understand why
they're so anxious. And I just don't see fascism rising
in America. It's just it's not in the nature of
the land and any sort of real politic, like real
political energy is going to come from the people, and
it's going to come from the land. The urban nites
have their own system outside of those urban centers. I mean,
classical liberalism works in a mostly white lie eat class
taking care of a multicultural society, and it can kind
of get away from that, and it can let so
many rapes and murders happen, and it's a little defunct utopia.
And and the people who want to manage the decline
of America and return to a constitutional conservatism that you know,
when when when they get mad at people saying, well
that that the people that the Constitution was written for
and by no longer exists. I think those people still exist,
but there's other people too, and and like like like
a real like fascist takeover of America. It's it's not
gonna scale, you know, like whenever whenever really fundamentalist strains
scales up. It it's kind of cheesy in America. Like
I'm thinking of the nineties Christianity, you know, like how
can kind of scales up?
Speaker 1: Forgive me for interesting, but how do you have fascism
with three hundred and fifty million or four hundred million people?
I mean you have you have mayors now who are like, yeah, Ice,
we're gonna fight Ice all the way. You have judges
all I mean, are you arresting every single one? They're
just going to pop up. Another one's going to pop up.
This this vast continent wide government system of governance is dead.
You can't fix it. It is going to have to
get smaller, whether that be returning to the tenth more
tenth Amendment kind of state states taking over. And you know,
but I don't even think that's going to happen. I
think it's going to be de fact though. It's just
going to It's not going to be planned. It's just
going to happen like so many you know, like in
twenty ten, Obama wanted to pass like this huge gun law,
and there were there were sheriffs in California who said,
we're just not going to enforce it. There was a
sheriff in Virginia who said, I will deputize the whole
town so that it's legal for them to own firearms.
And I mean, well, how do you how does the
how does the left fight with that, or how does
the right fight with you know, you have one hundred men,
you have one hundred mayors who are like, no one
has the budget for that. I don't care how many
people ICE is hiring. They're not going to do. They're
not going to be able to fix this. And anyone
who thinks it, anyone who thinks this this is going
to be fixed, is delusional. And anyone who is like
willing to fight for it starts to border on like enemy.
You have to look at them in the friend enemy distinction.
Speaker 3: Really, because they're going to harm your way of life.
Speaker 1: Some Yeah, you're going to harm every You're going to
harm everyone's way of life. There's just no way that
this can survive. Sam Francis talk about this the revolution
of massive scale too much. This can't scale. One person
can't make this scale. It's just not and there's no cohesiveness.
It's not like Franco and Spain. It's not like where
you have you know, most of the country is Catholic
and you can bring them in under that banner. You know,
You're you're looking at a country where it's like Protestants
go on on Twitter to you know, say Catholics aren't
real Christians and that they have a you know, oh
they have they have a sworn an oath to another country,
the Vatican, and then you'll have some Catholics that'll go
on Twitter and it'll be like Protestants aren't saved because
they don't believe in transubstantiation and they're not to I mean,
it's like, I mean, what what you think? You think?
Like you think Caleb in Salt Lake City and Joel
who lives on the Lower East Side of Manhattan have
something in common? What are you what like? What what
what banner are you bringing them in? Under nine eleven
is over another? Nine to eleven will not bring everybody together?
So where where is this coming from? What are you
going to rally people under.
Speaker 3: The Uh? I get Yeah, you said the individual and
the collective and that that uh, that dichotomy or that
that dialectic is uh. I think that's what separates the
the true right from the would be right and uh
the you know, the the some people get an eth
note identity and some people don't. And if you're if
you're in this eth note identity, you need to not
have that, But don't tell me what to do. The
problems with authority, the the just the need to argue
and and split hair is like you're talking about And
then you have people like Flint's touching a nerve, starting something,
But you're like, well, what is flinte is gonna be
in charge of? Why? Why would I be scared of him?
He's talking bad about some people I don't care, Like,
who's he Who's gonna what are they gonna do? March
around like that guy is brilliant for what he is,
but he's not a military kind of guy. He's not
gonna he's not a great tactician. Maybe he can figure
out the rhetorical strategies to get somebody that he wants
into government, but he's still operating within that system. So
I don't I don't know what there is to be
afraid of other than the common enemy, and fear is
its tool. So that's what I really enjoyed about the UH,
the event that we were on and and meeting these
young men. And when I got back from the event,
my wife who's getting just she's she's receiving tons and
tons of hate on her YouTube. Channe she hit a
nerve for some reason with the UH, the Red Pill
Men group, the UH, the MiG Towel set, and they're
just just trying to tear her down over and over
and over again. So when I got back, she's like, well,
how much do they hate women? I'm like, they don't
like these these young men, this this group, they're actually
like asking for dating advice. They actually they want women.
They want to be in the right relationship with the women.
They they have a they have the correct amount of misogyny,
which is that that necessary misogyny to let women be
different than me and kind of give them their domain
and I have my domain, and then figure out how
to harmonize harmonize those domains. But just that little bit
of teasing right to kind of like, you know, the
woman brain, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna behave that
way or like that, drawing that distinction, but also honoring
those distinctions, honoring those the nature Skilo said, women are
women are incredibly more base than men because they're just
tied by nature to reality in a way that men
will never be able to be tied to. Now that
doesn't mean that they can't go off the track as
we see in our modern day cat Catwine mom kind
of era.
Speaker 2: But the.
Speaker 3: I'm really concerned with the uh, with not honestly seeing
what's happening on the serious right. And that's kind of
my role in my job right now is to is
to understand them and to give them a place where
they can be normified, or where normies can interact with
them in a kind of a gentler environment than they're schizoid, racist, sexist, crazy,
crazy lands. So that's kind of what I'm doing now.
I have to I have to bounce though, I have
I have a shift that I have to get to.
Speaker 1: Sure, Sure, I'll just leave you with one thing that
my my buddy Charles Badiel said, and it's probably the
one of the most true things you'll ever hear. Women
are pragmatists pretending to be romantics, and men are romantics
pretending to be pragmants. And we need to reverse that back.
So tell everybody where they can find your work, and
I'll get you out of here.
Speaker 3: I'm Benjamin A. Boyce on Twitter and YouTube. My podcast
is Conversations on YouTube. I'm like twenty five subs away
from one hundred thousand. So if anybody here's this one
to give me a sub, you don't have to hit
that little bell thing, but I just want that number
so I can get that stupid little plaque and then
I can relax on my rest of my conversant laurels
for a while. But that's my only slug.
Speaker 1: Benjamin. I appreciate it. Let's talk again soon.
Speaker 3: Thank you absolutely, Peter, always a pleasures