WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.599 With Laurent segel And from London and Gerard Read from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:10.839 This is Redefining Energy Today. 3 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:16.039 On Refining Energy, we're going to talk about emobilit and Gerard, 4 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.280 you were on a panel a few months ago probably 5 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:23.719 explained the circumstances and who was with you on that panel? 6 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.359 Yeah, so I was invited by Jonathan Gifford actually on 7 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:32.679 the recently was the head editor of PV magazine, and 8 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:37.560 he brought together myself with Adele Chau from Trina Solar 9 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:41.640 and Thomas Refiner from the Mobility House. And I think 10 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:43.920 people know who Trina is. The Mobility House, a very 11 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:48.399 exciting German business that was really founded to work in 12 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.320 the whole area of vehicle to grid and you know 13 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:55.679 the use of mobile batteries in the power system and 14 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.399 stuff like that. You know, very ahead of the curve. 15 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.679 I think the business is probably be years old at 16 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:02.880 this point in time. But actually what you get, the 17 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:04.680 definite sense is that the time is coming. 18 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.680 You know, during that panel you're going to discuss the 19 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.920 uptake of immobility in your open China. What are the 20 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.519 implications for the energy storage and the industry, And of 21 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.599 course the big question is you know how do you 22 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.640 connect all those batteries inside cut to the grid. The 23 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:28.239 famous V two h V two, g V two X 24 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:32.719 and probably everybody heard about the first experiment, which is 25 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:38.000 a person BYD which have a combine offer where the 26 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.560 PID battery inside the car is linked to the autop system. 27 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.760 That is absolutely fascinating. So you're having this panel which 28 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:50.120 began to listen to right now, but it's really all 29 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:54.359 about the interaction between the EV and the grids. You 30 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:58.480 talk about collaboration and energy security. So it's on one 31 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.760 hand technical, but on the al though extremely hopeful conversation 32 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:03.239 you have. 33 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:07.359 Well, Lauren, I'm definitely not just hope all. I'm incredibly 34 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.560 positive about our future because it's the speed of innovation 35 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:17.879 that really is changing our world. It's incredibly exciting times 36 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.520 we live in. So John, let's listen to the panel. 37 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.560 If you were out and about today, it's pretty likely 38 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.599 that you saw an EV either on the road using 39 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:31.599 some public charging infrastructure. And the reason is that the 40 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:36.800 EV industry and EV uptake is accelerating at a dramatic pace. 41 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.280 I think sometimes in the West we see headlines in 42 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:45.000 general media that talks about EV uptake being slower or 43 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:49.000 uneven or not meeting expectations. But when you take a 44 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:55.159 global perspective, evs are absolutely flying away with market share, 45 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.120 driving away with market share rather and that made the 46 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.960 discussion today of the role of electric mobility, batteries and 47 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.840 energy resilience and our renewable energy transition so important. My 48 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.479 name's Jonathan Gifford, and this is a special series of 49 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.840 the Smarterie podcast, and in this episode of powering through 50 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.599 the Resilience of renewables here at the Smarterie twenty twenty five, 51 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.240 we're addressing emobility, vehicle to grid, vehicle to home and 52 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.919 the role that these different approaches and technologies, along with 53 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:29.039 battery energy storage systems can play in delivering a more 54 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:33.960 resilient electricity network. My guests ray are Adel Jao. She's 55 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:37.159 the head of marketing, product, solution and customer service Europe 56 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.560 for Trina Solar, Thomas Rauffner, he's a founder and CEO 57 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.199 of the Mobility House, and Jared Reid is a consultant 58 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:47.159 and investor and the host of the Redefining Energy podcast. 59 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.719 Thank you very much for joining me. When we're talking emobility, 60 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.639 it really is an area that is accelerating quite quickly, 61 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:57.639 although it hasn't been linear, you have to say, and 62 00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:59.879 there's also a lot of kind of chicken and egg 63 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.120 dynamics going on in terms of charging infrastructure and also 64 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:07.280 the cars themselves. If we're talking about demand, how do 65 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:10.039 you assess the market? Thomas, having been engaged in this 66 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:11.479 space for quite some time. 67 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:14.400 I have to smile. In New Zellneary, it was a 68 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.480 roller coaster. It's also a line, but it really went 69 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.120 up and down. And I remember the first show here 70 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:22.759 was two thousand and seven in ASLR and we were 71 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.720 at the end of one booth and there was maybe 72 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:28.759 half a hole and there was nobody because nobody believed 73 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.759 in electric cars. Now I have to say, if you 74 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.639 look around, there are electric cars for too many, for 75 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.160 some too little, and there are fortunately tons of renewals. 76 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:40.480 And now is the time to bring this thing together. 77 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.399 And fortunately we've been in Berlin yesterday. People see now 78 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.879 electric cars as part of the solution and not part 79 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.040 of the problem. I think this is really the major 80 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.399 major mind shift that has been done. And fortunately we 81 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:54.879 have a government now in Germany. Unfortunately they see what 82 00:04:54.879 --> 00:05:00.199 we do. Unfortunately, now I think this concerned it will 83 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:02.040 be a line in the future. After sure, it'll be 84 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:02.560 very steep. 85 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:05.079 Well, I think when you're talking about a concern, it's 86 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.120 there was a real narrative around if we plug all 87 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.040 these evs into the grid at the same time, we're 88 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:11.800 going to crash the network exactly right. 89 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.199 And I mean if you don't do it intelligently, if 90 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.040 you don't do it right, it will collapse. We have 91 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:18.279 seen that in Spain. We have seen that in many incidents. 92 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.439 If you do it right, the cars can help to 93 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:22.959 stabilize agrite. If you get it wrong, it might cause 94 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:25.279 a problem. But if you do it right, this will 95 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:29.399 be the biggest flexibility that we have. Even today, we 96 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.240 have one or five million cars that equal fifteen nuclear 97 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.600 power stations. That's a lot to stabilize a grid. And 98 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:36.920 they're here, they're connected, so you can do a lot 99 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.240 with it. 100 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:40.959 You speak positively about the framework conditions that are in 101 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:44.480 Germany at the moment or encouragingly, but we really can't 102 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.040 talk about emobility without talking about China at Del Jaos. 103 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.680 It's great to have your perspective here on this podcast 104 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.519 as well. How would you describe kind of ev uptake 105 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:56.879 in China at the moment? 106 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.000 I actually checked some number. Quite interesting. I'm pretty sure 107 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.920 many of you already know that. It will be also 108 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.360 to highlight it's very interesting. I will go to the battery. 109 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.920 How much actually were shipped last year in China of 110 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.199 course to the global so in total is one thousand, 111 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:15.959 one hundred and seventy five giga what hour, So the 112 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:19.000 battery as a whole everything. Of course, there are many 113 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.600 segments on it. Of course again EV is the leading one, 114 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.399 and out of that it's seven hundred and eighty is 115 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.519 for EB and so it's it's quite an amazing number. 116 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.879 And then the second is already also energy storage. Right, 117 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.680 but EV alone is really impressive. I'm from China. I 118 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.040 just told Jonathon I just went back to China during 119 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.480 Chinese your year. But EV just so impressive. The card, 120 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.279 not just the price, everything inside, it's really impressive. So 121 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:51.399 globally we sold so every country was sold about eighteen 122 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.319 million EV last year. And also so it's about twenty 123 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:59.399 four four percent growth globally. But China alone we sold 124 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.040 twelve million cars alone. So actually a lot of my 125 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.600 friends are driving EV. So for like mid class family 126 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:10.199 they can afford it. It's really like something for everyone 127 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.040 almost so that's really impressive. And also the infrastructure is 128 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.639 also there, so that's very very great. 129 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:20.639 I think movement on the ev side, Thomas, I see 130 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.399 you and nodding. This sounds more like in China, more 131 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.480 like an ev revolution than the kind of evolution of 132 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:27.000 the market. 133 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.839 Absolutely, and you're absolutely right. Last week on the Shanghai 134 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.720 Motor Show, you've seen impressively how the Chinese took over. 135 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:37.439 The cars are simply better, They are cheaper, they have 136 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:41.040 more range. If you look at technological improvements on the battery, 137 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.759 DVD CTL announced the neon nature and battery half the price, 138 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.680 one thousand kilometers range, four hundred miles charge in five minutes. 139 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.279 That's fueling event. So it's really impressive. And yes, in 140 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:00.360 this industry is dominated by the Chinese manufacturers. Fortunately I 141 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.959 should see this is also already a technology that can 142 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:07.079 be rolled out different markets and let's see how the 143 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.959 other markets will pick it up. But we will see 144 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.560 a lot of Chinese cars in Europe and also in 145 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.199 the United States. I guess this industry is really really 146 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.519 really the technologies there and it's really picked up, Okay, 147 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:20.720 thanks to the Chinese. 148 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.079 Yeah, absolutely, I don't know if there'll be so many 149 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.839 evs in the US under the current tariff regime. But 150 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.160 let's see how that plays out. I've seen you speak 151 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.919 before about some of the performance, you know, when it 152 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:36.279 comes to quality and the range that the Chinese manufacturers 153 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:38.679 are delivering with their evs. You know, we're in the 154 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.440 south of Germany now, which is long being the home 155 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:45.960 of prestige automakers BMW or Audi, these kind of names 156 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.000 famous all over the world, Mercedes. What do you see 157 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.960 in terms of the auto industry the impact of this 158 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.759 revolution towards evs driven by China. 159 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:57.679 Well, first and one most I'd say, as a drive 160 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.000 a car from BMW, which is obviously headquarters in Germany, 161 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.639 but it's made in China. So my electric car is 162 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:06.679 made in China. So what I want to say is 163 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.519 the German manufacturers realize what's coming their way. Right if 164 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:15.480 you go and look at Mercedes, Diamer, biggest investors Chinese, right, 165 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.320 So the writing's on the wall. The question is how 166 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.399 what do they do going forward? They have to cooperate 167 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.120 with the Chinese, right, there's no way around us. The 168 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:27.480 reality is the scale that China companies have, whether it's 169 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:31.639 in the battery space, the power, electronics space, the drive space, 170 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.080 even byd is a car company itself. The speed that 171 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.480 it's able to develop cars and bring them out. Cooperation 172 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:40.799 is the way going forward. And if you don't cooperate, 173 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.759 you die. And the reason you're going to die is 174 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.519 because it has been for the last ten years. EVS 175 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:50.600 has all been about cost of ownership. It's cheaper to 176 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.480 power the car than you know, use THEESEL or patrol. 177 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.440 Well today in China it's cheaper to buy an electric 178 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:00.879 card than an internal combustion engine. Now it's not the 179 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.720 case in Europe, but the writing's on the wall. And 180 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.919 so you know you've got a car that's cheaper to buy, 181 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:10.919 cheaper to run, more fun to drive. Will you tell 182 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:11.559 me who's going to win? 183 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:14.919 And what about for implications then for this industry, right 184 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:17.600 the trade show hauls outside here at this mattery, it's 185 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.080 all about electrons. So this is going to be a 186 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:23.200 lot of demand coming onto the network, just demand for 187 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:26.519 energy that's going to be hopefully produced from clean sources. 188 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:28.279 What are some of the implications, Jared. 189 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:32.240 Well, I think first and foremost is that regulators and 190 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:36.919 legislators need to realize that we're in a revolution and 191 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:39.759 you need to embrace the revolution. One point I give 192 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.279 is Thomas now, for example, has been rightly so promoting 193 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.559 using electric cars as resources in the grid for a decade. 194 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.840 We've only recently got in the regulations to allow this 195 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:54.840 to happen. So you can look at evs as, oh, 196 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.039 it's a pain. What will happen when we all charge 197 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.759 at the same time the grid's going to collapse? You go, well, sorry, 198 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.759 why we begin to use that intelligently? Charge you intelligently 199 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.120 and why don't you use it? Maybe back up your 200 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.960 power in your home and you use it as a resource. 201 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.720 Requires regulationy change to enable that. So I look, and 202 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:15.399 the only thing that concerns me in this revolution of 203 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.320 going through is I really would love to see the 204 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:20.720 invention of an intelligent regulator. 205 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:27.240 Impossible, Thomas. Where are we at then, in terms of 206 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:30.759 things like vehicles, a great vehicle to home. In Germany 207 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:32.799 and perhaps in Europe more generally. 208 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:37.039 The technology is there, So a battery is made to 209 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.600 charge an andrug, so it's by nature it's there, so 210 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:41.919 it's not a big deal to charge it and draged. 211 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.559 So indeed, what is missing, particularly in Germany is the 212 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:50.320 regulatory Frameburgh and unfortunately, I should say Germany is leading, 213 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.799 but from the bottom the penetration of smart meters, so 214 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:57.000 we have three percent out of hundred. That's I think 215 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.440 there is only North Korea and some other countries behind, 216 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:04.360 so they really including Jordania and Italy, has more. So 217 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.519 we need obviously to measure have a smart meter and 218 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.679 the regulator FRAMEBIC. It is missing in Germany. In the 219 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:12.200 rest of Europe not so much. Netherlands is great, we 220 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.799 do it in France. England is really the lead here, 221 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:17.519 so in all the countries we can do it, even 222 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.080 in the US. So it will come, I have no doubt, 223 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.080 because as you said, it'll be very cheap to drive 224 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.600 an electric car, actually down to zero if you use 225 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.600 it rightly. And just to give you a number on 226 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:32.360 the batteries, if one hundred percent of the cars would 227 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.679 turn into electric cars, we would only use six percent 228 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:37.720 more power, so it's not a lot. It's not that 229 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:39.399 we would then have to build I don't know, one 230 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.840 hundred new power stations. The power is there and actually 231 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:49.200 with the existing renewable power plants that we have in Germany. 232 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.600 And this is not the sunniest place on planets. Sun 233 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.240 and wind. This would be good enough to power and 234 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.279 to fuel all the electric cars today, so it's possible. 235 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.600 And also adding all that energy storage capacity to the 236 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:04.759 grid also has the opportunity to reduce curtailment. Right because 237 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:07.159 we're throwing away wind in solar power. 238 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.240 We assume that the power price will drop from average 239 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:12.759 two hundred and twenty two eurospermeko with hour down to 240 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.159 cilenty so it will be sixty percent less and it 241 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.840 will be very hard and to make money on just 242 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.639 selling kill about ours. And I think the business models 243 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.159 for all the utilities you might see this similar, So 244 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.279 selling kill about ours will not be a business model. 245 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:30.440 So we have to be more intelligent arriffs, more intelligent 246 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:34.440 offerings to your end user, including the flexibility of the 247 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:36.320 cars at your home and at work. 248 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.759 Okay, and if we go back to China again, Adela 249 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.720 to bring you in. You know, we want the emailbility 250 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.120 revolution to be fueled with renewable resources, and we see 251 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.480 that in China installing a huge amount of solar energy 252 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.759 every year. These are seen to go together. Do you 253 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:59.279 feel in China and by policy makers these solar energy, 254 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:03.279 renewable energy emability, do you think it's considered as a. 255 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:08.000 One definitely, because there's so many supporting scheme to support 256 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.720 EV and that's why it moves so fast. The infrastructure 257 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.159 is essential, the all the charging stations, and then also 258 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.039 the incentive for buying a car that you can exchange 259 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.840 a car, give you your old car and then then 260 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.360 you get the electricity car. It's essential. And then of 261 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.399 course at the wider scale, the national grid has to 262 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.559 be really robust, and also the regional grid that's essential. 263 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.559 I think you all know what's going on in China 264 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.600 on the solar. China is too big, so where can 265 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.679 we put sola? We cannot put in EACHA doesn't make 266 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.399 sense right, It's just too many people, too many building 267 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:44.799 so most little of them are in the West China, 268 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.720 whereas Godby and nobody lives here. And then essential is 269 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.320 to how to bring this energy back to the highly 270 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:55.879 populated region. I think many countries a bit similar, so 271 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.759 the infrastructure has to be there. And also back to 272 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.360 the TV part. It's very interesting also a Thomas. We're 273 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.840 doing so like China now is doing lots of tests. 274 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.879 Like in my city, Jim Joe, where Trina is headquartered, 275 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.720 we're doing a test now to do the V two 276 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.840 G at the moment, so that it's also a national 277 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:16.519 kind of government is pushing and say hey, let's try 278 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:19.440 and shall I also have their many city. We try 279 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.919 a different model and see which one works. So it's 280 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.519 really it's not just manufacturing. It's a hard ecosystem has 281 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.080 to work. The industry, the government also the society has 282 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.120 to accept this is really the environment to grow EV well. 283 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.440 The bet the trees are a key part as well, 284 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.679 and that is manufacturing. And as Thomas said, these companies 285 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.840 like byd C at L, you know, really leading the 286 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:45.480 way and also developing storage along with EV's they go 287 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.720 hand in hand. Trainer as a company is going kind 288 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:53.399 of hand in hand solar energy storage. Again, how similar 289 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.639 is supplying energy storage systems and building storage. Coming from 290 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.720 a solar background and having scaled solar cell module making 291 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:02.000 it's quat It's. 292 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.120 Still in the same industry but a bit different. Storage 293 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.320 is really a project business. Every customer had different needs, 294 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.480 so we really have to customize the solution and also 295 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:16.279 as well. Not like in Europe, the first market was 296 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.720 UK still today is the leading and then now Germany 297 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.360 is also growing, Italy and Spain. But actually they all 298 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:27.559 have different business model like revenue stream, so actually we 299 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.559 have to really design together also the software apart. 300 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:31.919 Right. 301 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.240 Also every grid has different regulation, so it's really a 302 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.919 lot of work together to be done with the local partner. 303 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.200 So it's also not just the storage the container itself, 304 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:45.480 but really doing engineering together with the local partner to 305 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.639 understand their need, their revenue stream and then to make 306 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.799 it work. I think that's the key difference from a 307 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.360 storage business to a model business. But we know why 308 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.679 Trina did that because we know you have this issue. 309 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.000 We need storage we can especially when the penetration rate 310 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.400 goes higher and higher. We need flexibility on the grid. 311 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.359 It can be on the generation side, which we do 312 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.400 a lot, but also on the transmission line and also 313 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.799 on the consumption side for example for ev charging station, right, 314 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.839 why don't we put it also storage to reduce the 315 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.200 peakload because also save a lot of costs. So there 316 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.759 a lot of things we can do together. That's why 317 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.839 try and also move to do actually a long time 318 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:32.640 before we launch our product because mister gow our CEO, no, 319 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.079 we will need it now launching the third generation and 320 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.799 the cell itself is our directions make more energy density, 321 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.000 more affordable. But also the key is really integration in 322 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.359 the system level at each country, each customer to customize it. 323 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:54.079 Regulatory yes, you're absolutely right. If you only look at Germany, 324 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:56.759 the at and it's montilities. Everybody has its own rules. 325 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.240 But I'm not worried about that this will change. The 326 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:04.240 fundamental are globally the same. We have renewables. Fortunately, we 327 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.440 have wind and solar and they come with volatility. So 328 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:10.359 and the answer to volatility, it's all about solar and storage. 329 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.839 So the volatility needs flexibility and needs a store. Every 330 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.440 other kill about hour that is produced somewhere on this 331 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.920 planet need to be stored wherever market versione foud change. 332 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.599 Regulatory will change. We don't know what the regime will 333 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.319 look in France in five years. We don't even know 334 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.200 what Germany and tomorrow in the United States will do. 335 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.440 So what the fundamentals are right, We need storage and 336 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.519 here batteries can help. So that's why I'm super relaxed 337 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.160 actually that batteries will take over because they're the cheapest 338 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.319 form and all the cars are the cheapest form of 339 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.440 flexibility that we have, and then we have to adjust 340 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.559 with regulatory frameworks. Sometimes people say you're such a fan 341 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:50.720 of China, But yes, they are the role model of 342 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.119 not as renewables for climate change, not because they want 343 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.119 to save the planet necessarily, but it's simply the cheapest 344 00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:59.359 way to do it. There is nothing cheaper than the 345 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.200 solar powers station or in today you can't compete use 346 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:06.000 any gas fire power station, so it's obviously renewable. You 347 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.599 know that better five and twenty gigawatts have been installed 348 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.039 last year in power generation, four hundred out of them 349 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.519 were renewable and three hundred and eighty out of them 350 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.440 in China. They drive it because it's cheaper. It's economically 351 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.480 cheaper to produce power resolar and it's economically cheaper to 352 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.359 use batteries to store it. That's why the fundamentals are 353 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:29.200 going in the right direction. And different markets will do 354 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.720 have different regulatory regimes. These will depend on governments, they 355 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.720 will change, but the fundamentals will not disappear. 356 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.039 Well, Jared, I remember the first time we were kind 357 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.400 of ever in touch was we were a banking analyst 358 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:44.480 like looking at these exciting solar stocks as they would 359 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.880 come onto the market. How similar do you see the 360 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.839 progress of batteries to the progress of solar in the 361 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.039 past because the progress of solar, the cost reduction has 362 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.119 been amazing, that the efficiency gains have been amazing, but 363 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.240 there's also been a lot of pitfalls along the way, 364 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:01.400 a lot of bankruptcy, is a lot of kind of 365 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.400 market uncertainty. Are there those potential barriers to storage growth 366 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:07.599 and ev growth as well? 367 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.480 The industry is slightly different. The reason it's slightly different 368 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.599 is because what we had was in solar industries started 369 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.880 in Germany and then went to China, and there was 370 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.440 German industry was wiped out, as you know, there was 371 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.720 a whole pile of solar companies in China wiped out. 372 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.960 We didn't have that in storage. And the reason we 373 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.200 didn't have it is because what we had was the 374 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:34.079 Japanese and South Koreans basically three companies Anasonic, LG, Samptum. 375 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.799 They're still in the game. And then what you had 376 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.279 was ca ATL and BYD and these guys still even 377 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.720 though it's going from South Korea and Japan towards Japan, 378 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.799 in terms of market share, we still have the industry 379 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.599 dominated by you know, six or seven players, so they've 380 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.079 gone into what i'd call an oligopoly. Very early the 381 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.359 solar industry is already in an oligopoly. There is five 382 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.880 or six global players and they dominate. That's why they're 383 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:04.359 very similar today. Now, if I look at this, as 384 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:06.920 put my analyst at you add it, do I bet 385 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:07.920 against the Chinese? 386 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:08.039 No? 387 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.000 If I look in the battery space, no way, because 388 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.079 they had this scale. Once you get to that scale, 389 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:15.000 I think I heard that number which was that this 390 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.559 forty billion lithiumine cells produced last year billion and then 391 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.599 sold ourselves. It's sort of five billion or something. The 392 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.839 scale is enormous and this is very, very important. This 393 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.359 is part of the revolution that we're in. Going back 394 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.640 to what Thomas said is people do not realize that 395 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.160 we have never seen a generation technology get to market 396 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.519 as quickly as solar because it's small and can be flexible. 397 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:42.559 The battery is the same thing. All of us are 398 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.559 carrying lithiumine batteries in our pockets and you can use 399 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:50.559 them to power a town. These two technologies together sort 400 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:54.960 of change the energy landscape globally and I'd say forever, 401 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.279