Speaker 1: With Laurent segel And from London and Gerard Read from Berlin.
Speaker 1: This is Redefining Energy Today.
Speaker 2: On Refining Energy, we're going to talk about emobilit and Gerard,
Speaker 2: you were on a panel a few months ago probably
Speaker 2: explained the circumstances and who was with you on that panel?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was invited by Jonathan Gifford actually on
Speaker 1: the recently was the head editor of PV magazine, and
Speaker 1: he brought together myself with Adele Chau from Trina Solar
Speaker 1: and Thomas Refiner from the Mobility House. And I think
Speaker 1: people know who Trina is. The Mobility House, a very
Speaker 1: exciting German business that was really founded to work in
Speaker 1: the whole area of vehicle to grid and you know
Speaker 1: the use of mobile batteries in the power system and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. You know, very ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1: I think the business is probably be years old at
Speaker 1: this point in time. But actually what you get, the
Speaker 1: definite sense is that the time is coming.
Speaker 2: You know, during that panel you're going to discuss the
Speaker 2: uptake of immobility in your open China. What are the
Speaker 2: implications for the energy storage and the industry, And of
Speaker 2: course the big question is you know how do you
Speaker 2: connect all those batteries inside cut to the grid. The
Speaker 2: famous V two h V two, g V two X
Speaker 2: and probably everybody heard about the first experiment, which is
Speaker 2: a person BYD which have a combine offer where the
Speaker 2: PID battery inside the car is linked to the autop system.
Speaker 2: That is absolutely fascinating. So you're having this panel which
Speaker 2: began to listen to right now, but it's really all
Speaker 2: about the interaction between the EV and the grids. You
Speaker 2: talk about collaboration and energy security. So it's on one
Speaker 2: hand technical, but on the al though extremely hopeful conversation
Speaker 2: you have.
Speaker 1: Well, Lauren, I'm definitely not just hope all. I'm incredibly
Speaker 1: positive about our future because it's the speed of innovation
Speaker 1: that really is changing our world. It's incredibly exciting times
Speaker 1: we live in. So John, let's listen to the panel.
Speaker 3: If you were out and about today, it's pretty likely
Speaker 3: that you saw an EV either on the road using
Speaker 3: some public charging infrastructure. And the reason is that the
Speaker 3: EV industry and EV uptake is accelerating at a dramatic pace.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes in the West we see headlines in
Speaker 3: general media that talks about EV uptake being slower or
Speaker 3: uneven or not meeting expectations. But when you take a
Speaker 3: global perspective, evs are absolutely flying away with market share,
Speaker 3: driving away with market share rather and that made the
Speaker 3: discussion today of the role of electric mobility, batteries and
Speaker 3: energy resilience and our renewable energy transition so important. My
Speaker 3: name's Jonathan Gifford, and this is a special series of
Speaker 3: the Smarterie podcast, and in this episode of powering through
Speaker 3: the Resilience of renewables here at the Smarterie twenty twenty five,
Speaker 3: we're addressing emobility, vehicle to grid, vehicle to home and
Speaker 3: the role that these different approaches and technologies, along with
Speaker 3: battery energy storage systems can play in delivering a more
Speaker 3: resilient electricity network. My guests ray are Adel Jao. She's
Speaker 3: the head of marketing, product, solution and customer service Europe
Speaker 3: for Trina Solar, Thomas Rauffner, he's a founder and CEO
Speaker 3: of the Mobility House, and Jared Reid is a consultant
Speaker 3: and investor and the host of the Redefining Energy podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for joining me. When we're talking emobility,
Speaker 3: it really is an area that is accelerating quite quickly,
Speaker 3: although it hasn't been linear, you have to say, and
Speaker 3: there's also a lot of kind of chicken and egg
Speaker 3: dynamics going on in terms of charging infrastructure and also
Speaker 3: the cars themselves. If we're talking about demand, how do
Speaker 3: you assess the market? Thomas, having been engaged in this
Speaker 3: space for quite some time.
Speaker 4: I have to smile. In New Zellneary, it was a
Speaker 4: roller coaster. It's also a line, but it really went
Speaker 4: up and down. And I remember the first show here
Speaker 4: was two thousand and seven in ASLR and we were
Speaker 4: at the end of one booth and there was maybe
Speaker 4: half a hole and there was nobody because nobody believed
Speaker 4: in electric cars. Now I have to say, if you
Speaker 4: look around, there are electric cars for too many, for
Speaker 4: some too little, and there are fortunately tons of renewals.
Speaker 4: And now is the time to bring this thing together.
Speaker 4: And fortunately we've been in Berlin yesterday. People see now
Speaker 4: electric cars as part of the solution and not part
Speaker 4: of the problem. I think this is really the major
Speaker 4: major mind shift that has been done. And fortunately we
Speaker 4: have a government now in Germany. Unfortunately they see what
Speaker 4: we do. Unfortunately, now I think this concerned it will
Speaker 4: be a line in the future. After sure, it'll be
Speaker 4: very steep.
Speaker 3: Well, I think when you're talking about a concern, it's
Speaker 3: there was a real narrative around if we plug all
Speaker 3: these evs into the grid at the same time, we're
Speaker 3: going to crash the network exactly right.
Speaker 4: And I mean if you don't do it intelligently, if
Speaker 4: you don't do it right, it will collapse. We have
Speaker 4: seen that in Spain. We have seen that in many incidents.
Speaker 4: If you do it right, the cars can help to
Speaker 4: stabilize agrite. If you get it wrong, it might cause
Speaker 4: a problem. But if you do it right, this will
Speaker 4: be the biggest flexibility that we have. Even today, we
Speaker 4: have one or five million cars that equal fifteen nuclear
Speaker 4: power stations. That's a lot to stabilize a grid. And
Speaker 4: they're here, they're connected, so you can do a lot
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 3: You speak positively about the framework conditions that are in
Speaker 3: Germany at the moment or encouragingly, but we really can't
Speaker 3: talk about emobility without talking about China at Del Jaos.
Speaker 3: It's great to have your perspective here on this podcast
Speaker 3: as well. How would you describe kind of ev uptake
Speaker 3: in China at the moment?
Speaker 5: I actually checked some number. Quite interesting. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 5: many of you already know that. It will be also
Speaker 5: to highlight it's very interesting. I will go to the battery.
Speaker 5: How much actually were shipped last year in China of
Speaker 5: course to the global so in total is one thousand,
Speaker 5: one hundred and seventy five giga what hour, So the
Speaker 5: battery as a whole everything. Of course, there are many
Speaker 5: segments on it. Of course again EV is the leading one,
Speaker 5: and out of that it's seven hundred and eighty is
Speaker 5: for EB and so it's it's quite an amazing number.
Speaker 5: And then the second is already also energy storage. Right,
Speaker 5: but EV alone is really impressive. I'm from China. I
Speaker 5: just told Jonathon I just went back to China during
Speaker 5: Chinese your year. But EV just so impressive. The card,
Speaker 5: not just the price, everything inside, it's really impressive. So
Speaker 5: globally we sold so every country was sold about eighteen
Speaker 5: million EV last year. And also so it's about twenty
Speaker 5: four four percent growth globally. But China alone we sold
Speaker 5: twelve million cars alone. So actually a lot of my
Speaker 5: friends are driving EV. So for like mid class family
Speaker 5: they can afford it. It's really like something for everyone
Speaker 5: almost so that's really impressive. And also the infrastructure is
Speaker 5: also there, so that's very very great.
Speaker 3: I think movement on the ev side, Thomas, I see
Speaker 3: you and nodding. This sounds more like in China, more
Speaker 3: like an ev revolution than the kind of evolution of
Speaker 3: the market.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and you're absolutely right. Last week on the Shanghai
Speaker 4: Motor Show, you've seen impressively how the Chinese took over.
Speaker 4: The cars are simply better, They are cheaper, they have
Speaker 4: more range. If you look at technological improvements on the battery,
Speaker 4: DVD CTL announced the neon nature and battery half the price,
Speaker 4: one thousand kilometers range, four hundred miles charge in five minutes.
Speaker 4: That's fueling event. So it's really impressive. And yes, in
Speaker 4: this industry is dominated by the Chinese manufacturers. Fortunately I
Speaker 4: should see this is also already a technology that can
Speaker 4: be rolled out different markets and let's see how the
Speaker 4: other markets will pick it up. But we will see
Speaker 4: a lot of Chinese cars in Europe and also in
Speaker 4: the United States. I guess this industry is really really
Speaker 4: really the technologies there and it's really picked up, Okay,
Speaker 4: thanks to the Chinese.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I don't know if there'll be so many
Speaker 3: evs in the US under the current tariff regime. But
Speaker 3: let's see how that plays out. I've seen you speak
Speaker 3: before about some of the performance, you know, when it
Speaker 3: comes to quality and the range that the Chinese manufacturers
Speaker 3: are delivering with their evs. You know, we're in the
Speaker 3: south of Germany now, which is long being the home
Speaker 3: of prestige automakers BMW or Audi, these kind of names
Speaker 3: famous all over the world, Mercedes. What do you see
Speaker 3: in terms of the auto industry the impact of this
Speaker 3: revolution towards evs driven by China.
Speaker 1: Well, first and one most I'd say, as a drive
Speaker 1: a car from BMW, which is obviously headquarters in Germany,
Speaker 1: but it's made in China. So my electric car is
Speaker 1: made in China. So what I want to say is
Speaker 1: the German manufacturers realize what's coming their way. Right if
Speaker 1: you go and look at Mercedes, Diamer, biggest investors Chinese, right,
Speaker 1: So the writing's on the wall. The question is how
Speaker 1: what do they do going forward? They have to cooperate
Speaker 1: with the Chinese, right, there's no way around us. The
Speaker 1: reality is the scale that China companies have, whether it's
Speaker 1: in the battery space, the power, electronics space, the drive space,
Speaker 1: even byd is a car company itself. The speed that
Speaker 1: it's able to develop cars and bring them out. Cooperation
Speaker 1: is the way going forward. And if you don't cooperate,
Speaker 1: you die. And the reason you're going to die is
Speaker 1: because it has been for the last ten years. EVS
Speaker 1: has all been about cost of ownership. It's cheaper to
Speaker 1: power the car than you know, use THEESEL or patrol.
Speaker 1: Well today in China it's cheaper to buy an electric
Speaker 1: card than an internal combustion engine. Now it's not the
Speaker 1: case in Europe, but the writing's on the wall. And
Speaker 1: so you know you've got a car that's cheaper to buy,
Speaker 1: cheaper to run, more fun to drive. Will you tell
Speaker 1: me who's going to win?
Speaker 3: And what about for implications then for this industry, right
Speaker 3: the trade show hauls outside here at this mattery, it's
Speaker 3: all about electrons. So this is going to be a
Speaker 3: lot of demand coming onto the network, just demand for
Speaker 3: energy that's going to be hopefully produced from clean sources.
Speaker 3: What are some of the implications, Jared.
Speaker 1: Well, I think first and foremost is that regulators and
Speaker 1: legislators need to realize that we're in a revolution and
Speaker 1: you need to embrace the revolution. One point I give
Speaker 1: is Thomas now, for example, has been rightly so promoting
Speaker 1: using electric cars as resources in the grid for a decade.
Speaker 1: We've only recently got in the regulations to allow this
Speaker 1: to happen. So you can look at evs as, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a pain. What will happen when we all charge
Speaker 1: at the same time the grid's going to collapse? You go, well, sorry,
Speaker 1: why we begin to use that intelligently? Charge you intelligently
Speaker 1: and why don't you use it? Maybe back up your
Speaker 1: power in your home and you use it as a resource.
Speaker 1: Requires regulationy change to enable that. So I look, and
Speaker 1: the only thing that concerns me in this revolution of
Speaker 1: going through is I really would love to see the
Speaker 1: invention of an intelligent regulator.
Speaker 3: Impossible, Thomas. Where are we at then, in terms of
Speaker 3: things like vehicles, a great vehicle to home. In Germany
Speaker 3: and perhaps in Europe more generally.
Speaker 4: The technology is there, So a battery is made to
Speaker 4: charge an andrug, so it's by nature it's there, so
Speaker 4: it's not a big deal to charge it and draged.
Speaker 4: So indeed, what is missing, particularly in Germany is the
Speaker 4: regulatory Frameburgh and unfortunately, I should say Germany is leading,
Speaker 4: but from the bottom the penetration of smart meters, so
Speaker 4: we have three percent out of hundred. That's I think
Speaker 4: there is only North Korea and some other countries behind,
Speaker 4: so they really including Jordania and Italy, has more. So
Speaker 4: we need obviously to measure have a smart meter and
Speaker 4: the regulator FRAMEBIC. It is missing in Germany. In the
Speaker 4: rest of Europe not so much. Netherlands is great, we
Speaker 4: do it in France. England is really the lead here,
Speaker 4: so in all the countries we can do it, even
Speaker 4: in the US. So it will come, I have no doubt,
Speaker 4: because as you said, it'll be very cheap to drive
Speaker 4: an electric car, actually down to zero if you use
Speaker 4: it rightly. And just to give you a number on
Speaker 4: the batteries, if one hundred percent of the cars would
Speaker 4: turn into electric cars, we would only use six percent
Speaker 4: more power, so it's not a lot. It's not that
Speaker 4: we would then have to build I don't know, one
Speaker 4: hundred new power stations. The power is there and actually
Speaker 4: with the existing renewable power plants that we have in Germany.
Speaker 4: And this is not the sunniest place on planets. Sun
Speaker 4: and wind. This would be good enough to power and
Speaker 4: to fuel all the electric cars today, so it's possible.
Speaker 3: And also adding all that energy storage capacity to the
Speaker 3: grid also has the opportunity to reduce curtailment. Right because
Speaker 3: we're throwing away wind in solar power.
Speaker 4: We assume that the power price will drop from average
Speaker 4: two hundred and twenty two eurospermeko with hour down to
Speaker 4: cilenty so it will be sixty percent less and it
Speaker 4: will be very hard and to make money on just
Speaker 4: selling kill about ours. And I think the business models
Speaker 4: for all the utilities you might see this similar, So
Speaker 4: selling kill about ours will not be a business model.
Speaker 4: So we have to be more intelligent arriffs, more intelligent
Speaker 4: offerings to your end user, including the flexibility of the
Speaker 4: cars at your home and at work.
Speaker 3: Okay, and if we go back to China again, Adela
Speaker 3: to bring you in. You know, we want the emailbility
Speaker 3: revolution to be fueled with renewable resources, and we see
Speaker 3: that in China installing a huge amount of solar energy
Speaker 3: every year. These are seen to go together. Do you
Speaker 3: feel in China and by policy makers these solar energy,
Speaker 3: renewable energy emability, do you think it's considered as a.
Speaker 5: One definitely, because there's so many supporting scheme to support
Speaker 5: EV and that's why it moves so fast. The infrastructure
Speaker 5: is essential, the all the charging stations, and then also
Speaker 5: the incentive for buying a car that you can exchange
Speaker 5: a car, give you your old car and then then
Speaker 5: you get the electricity car. It's essential. And then of
Speaker 5: course at the wider scale, the national grid has to
Speaker 5: be really robust, and also the regional grid that's essential.
Speaker 5: I think you all know what's going on in China
Speaker 5: on the solar. China is too big, so where can
Speaker 5: we put sola? We cannot put in EACHA doesn't make
Speaker 5: sense right, It's just too many people, too many building
Speaker 5: so most little of them are in the West China,
Speaker 5: whereas Godby and nobody lives here. And then essential is
Speaker 5: to how to bring this energy back to the highly
Speaker 5: populated region. I think many countries a bit similar, so
Speaker 5: the infrastructure has to be there. And also back to
Speaker 5: the TV part. It's very interesting also a Thomas. We're
Speaker 5: doing so like China now is doing lots of tests.
Speaker 5: Like in my city, Jim Joe, where Trina is headquartered,
Speaker 5: we're doing a test now to do the V two
Speaker 5: G at the moment, so that it's also a national
Speaker 5: kind of government is pushing and say hey, let's try
Speaker 5: and shall I also have their many city. We try
Speaker 5: a different model and see which one works. So it's
Speaker 5: really it's not just manufacturing. It's a hard ecosystem has
Speaker 5: to work. The industry, the government also the society has
Speaker 5: to accept this is really the environment to grow EV well.
Speaker 3: The bet the trees are a key part as well,
Speaker 3: and that is manufacturing. And as Thomas said, these companies
Speaker 3: like byd C at L, you know, really leading the
Speaker 3: way and also developing storage along with EV's they go
Speaker 3: hand in hand. Trainer as a company is going kind
Speaker 3: of hand in hand solar energy storage. Again, how similar
Speaker 3: is supplying energy storage systems and building storage. Coming from
Speaker 3: a solar background and having scaled solar cell module making
Speaker 3: it's quat It's.
Speaker 5: Still in the same industry but a bit different. Storage
Speaker 5: is really a project business. Every customer had different needs,
Speaker 5: so we really have to customize the solution and also
Speaker 5: as well. Not like in Europe, the first market was
Speaker 5: UK still today is the leading and then now Germany
Speaker 5: is also growing, Italy and Spain. But actually they all
Speaker 5: have different business model like revenue stream, so actually we
Speaker 5: have to really design together also the software apart.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 5: Also every grid has different regulation, so it's really a
Speaker 5: lot of work together to be done with the local partner.
Speaker 5: So it's also not just the storage the container itself,
Speaker 5: but really doing engineering together with the local partner to
Speaker 5: understand their need, their revenue stream and then to make
Speaker 5: it work. I think that's the key difference from a
Speaker 5: storage business to a model business. But we know why
Speaker 5: Trina did that because we know you have this issue.
Speaker 5: We need storage we can especially when the penetration rate
Speaker 5: goes higher and higher. We need flexibility on the grid.
Speaker 5: It can be on the generation side, which we do
Speaker 5: a lot, but also on the transmission line and also
Speaker 5: on the consumption side for example for ev charging station, right,
Speaker 5: why don't we put it also storage to reduce the
Speaker 5: peakload because also save a lot of costs. So there
Speaker 5: a lot of things we can do together. That's why
Speaker 5: try and also move to do actually a long time
Speaker 5: before we launch our product because mister gow our CEO, no,
Speaker 5: we will need it now launching the third generation and
Speaker 5: the cell itself is our directions make more energy density,
Speaker 5: more affordable. But also the key is really integration in
Speaker 5: the system level at each country, each customer to customize it.
Speaker 4: Regulatory yes, you're absolutely right. If you only look at Germany,
Speaker 4: the at and it's montilities. Everybody has its own rules.
Speaker 4: But I'm not worried about that this will change. The
Speaker 4: fundamental are globally the same. We have renewables. Fortunately, we
Speaker 4: have wind and solar and they come with volatility. So
Speaker 4: and the answer to volatility, it's all about solar and storage.
Speaker 4: So the volatility needs flexibility and needs a store. Every
Speaker 4: other kill about hour that is produced somewhere on this
Speaker 4: planet need to be stored wherever market versione foud change.
Speaker 4: Regulatory will change. We don't know what the regime will
Speaker 4: look in France in five years. We don't even know
Speaker 4: what Germany and tomorrow in the United States will do.
Speaker 4: So what the fundamentals are right, We need storage and
Speaker 4: here batteries can help. So that's why I'm super relaxed
Speaker 4: actually that batteries will take over because they're the cheapest
Speaker 4: form and all the cars are the cheapest form of
Speaker 4: flexibility that we have, and then we have to adjust
Speaker 4: with regulatory frameworks. Sometimes people say you're such a fan
Speaker 4: of China, But yes, they are the role model of
Speaker 4: not as renewables for climate change, not because they want
Speaker 4: to save the planet necessarily, but it's simply the cheapest
Speaker 4: way to do it. There is nothing cheaper than the
Speaker 4: solar powers station or in today you can't compete use
Speaker 4: any gas fire power station, so it's obviously renewable. You
Speaker 4: know that better five and twenty gigawatts have been installed
Speaker 4: last year in power generation, four hundred out of them
Speaker 4: were renewable and three hundred and eighty out of them
Speaker 4: in China. They drive it because it's cheaper. It's economically
Speaker 4: cheaper to produce power resolar and it's economically cheaper to
Speaker 4: use batteries to store it. That's why the fundamentals are
Speaker 4: going in the right direction. And different markets will do
Speaker 4: have different regulatory regimes. These will depend on governments, they
Speaker 4: will change, but the fundamentals will not disappear.
Speaker 3: Well, Jared, I remember the first time we were kind
Speaker 3: of ever in touch was we were a banking analyst
Speaker 3: like looking at these exciting solar stocks as they would
Speaker 3: come onto the market. How similar do you see the
Speaker 3: progress of batteries to the progress of solar in the
Speaker 3: past because the progress of solar, the cost reduction has
Speaker 3: been amazing, that the efficiency gains have been amazing, but
Speaker 3: there's also been a lot of pitfalls along the way,
Speaker 3: a lot of bankruptcy, is a lot of kind of
Speaker 3: market uncertainty. Are there those potential barriers to storage growth
Speaker 3: and ev growth as well?
Speaker 1: The industry is slightly different. The reason it's slightly different
Speaker 1: is because what we had was in solar industries started
Speaker 1: in Germany and then went to China, and there was
Speaker 1: German industry was wiped out, as you know, there was
Speaker 1: a whole pile of solar companies in China wiped out.
Speaker 1: We didn't have that in storage. And the reason we
Speaker 1: didn't have it is because what we had was the
Speaker 1: Japanese and South Koreans basically three companies Anasonic, LG, Samptum.
Speaker 1: They're still in the game. And then what you had
Speaker 1: was ca ATL and BYD and these guys still even
Speaker 1: though it's going from South Korea and Japan towards Japan,
Speaker 1: in terms of market share, we still have the industry
Speaker 1: dominated by you know, six or seven players, so they've
Speaker 1: gone into what i'd call an oligopoly. Very early the
Speaker 1: solar industry is already in an oligopoly. There is five
Speaker 1: or six global players and they dominate. That's why they're
Speaker 1: very similar today. Now, if I look at this, as
Speaker 1: put my analyst at you add it, do I bet
Speaker 1: against the Chinese?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: If I look in the battery space, no way, because
Speaker 1: they had this scale. Once you get to that scale,
Speaker 1: I think I heard that number which was that this
Speaker 1: forty billion lithiumine cells produced last year billion and then
Speaker 1: sold ourselves. It's sort of five billion or something. The
Speaker 1: scale is enormous and this is very, very important. This
Speaker 1: is part of the revolution that we're in. Going back
Speaker 1: to what Thomas said is people do not realize that
Speaker 1: we have never seen a generation technology get to market
Speaker 1: as quickly as solar because it's small and can be flexible.
Speaker 1: The battery is the same thing. All of us are
Speaker 1: carrying lithiumine batteries in our pockets and you can use
Speaker 1: them to power a town. These two technologies together sort
Speaker 1: of change the energy landscape globally and I'd say forever,
Speaker 1: and we need to embrace it. And actually, I take
Speaker 1: what Thomas has said is we have to look at
Speaker 1: China as the role model because China took a very
Speaker 1: strategic view on these technologies, if I may say, which
Speaker 1: is that we need to dominate the production and also
Speaker 1: the execution of these technologies the implementation of them into
Speaker 1: the system. While in Europe we sort of started along
Speaker 1: the path and then have sort of backed away because
Speaker 1: we're afraid because we've got incumninent industries and whatever that
Speaker 1: are blocking change, and governments are scared of job losses.
Speaker 1: But if we don't do something, there's even worse.
Speaker 3: Do you think there's a risk to it from trade disputes.
Speaker 3: We've seen these crazy tariffs. Yeah, it's essentially an embargo
Speaker 3: in the US, and then you know things like fringe
Speaker 3: during It's a terrible word, but this kind of push
Speaker 3: towards localism rather well.
Speaker 1: So I'm got to say, as an an economist, I go,
Speaker 1: you do not win terri for us if you have
Speaker 1: to put tariffs on somebody. What you do is you're
Speaker 1: admitting that your own industry is not competitive. That's what
Speaker 1: you're saying. And then you have to ask the question, well,
Speaker 1: how do you get competitive? You don't get competitive by
Speaker 1: making the alternative more expensive, because what you do is
Speaker 1: you spoil your own industry and don't force them to
Speaker 1: be competitive, So you have to re rethink the strategy
Speaker 1: in and around industry. So I would say from European perspective,
Speaker 1: by talking about climate and energy, we have to really
Speaker 1: bring industry policy together with energy policy. China have done that.
Speaker 1: That's what we have to learn from China. And I
Speaker 1: actually say the only way you're going to compete with
Speaker 1: China is how they compete with us. Where did Coatl
Speaker 1: come from? It came from Atl. It was a Japanese
Speaker 1: battery business joint venture with the Japanese and then Catail
Speaker 1: is a spill out from it and the rest is history.
Speaker 1: We have to do the same. We have to admit
Speaker 1: that we have huge amounts to learn from China, huge
Speaker 1: amount and we need to integrate with them. And if
Speaker 1: we don't integrate with them, then you can forget the
Speaker 1: automobile industry for example.
Speaker 3: So partnership is really promising way to both move forward
Speaker 3: in transition course and also to support industry.
Speaker 1: So if US decided they're going to go down the
Speaker 1: road of tariffs, I say, I hope we don't do
Speaker 1: the same because it is economic suicide.
Speaker 3: Tomas, You're seen to be agreed.
Speaker 4: I think I'm relaxed on that because we already saw
Speaker 4: that there was importext on mobile phones. There was an
Speaker 4: importexing cars. The next morning it was gone because the
Speaker 4: Americans wouldn't have a mobile phone. Very simple. So they say, hey,
Speaker 4: we need this stuff, so let's make it exemption here,
Speaker 4: let's make an exemption there. This is irritating. Is does
Speaker 4: make sense?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: Are we fed of hearing all the news every day? Yes,
Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, there is no
Speaker 4: alternative to being competitive and having the best technology at
Speaker 4: the best price. And you're absolutely right. If you look
Speaker 4: at China today, we have a cluster there around better
Speaker 4: is an electric cars and also solar system that is unbeatable.
Speaker 4: So last week in China, this was a great statement
Speaker 4: from the Volkswagen CEO of China. He said, we build
Speaker 4: cars for China in China, and we build cars for
Speaker 4: the United States with more value added services in the US.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, this speed and
Speaker 4: the learning needs to come from the best practice, and
Speaker 4: in the electrical car industry, it's China, so we should
Speaker 4: go there and they're the teacher, we etquate, so we
Speaker 4: should learn from them how to produce cars faster and better,
Speaker 4: and there might be other industries when they can learn
Speaker 4: from us, and I don't see that this will disappear
Speaker 4: fundamentally Again here Americans will probably look at industries that
Speaker 4: they can like a different intelligence. They're strong there, so
Speaker 4: they might want to think about stuff export that other
Speaker 4: like the cars. They will work with China and they
Speaker 4: will work with Europe.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 3: Well. To round out this conversation, a kind of final thought,
Speaker 3: a quick final thought from each of you, this kind
Speaker 3: of intersection between renewable solar energy storage and emobility kind
Speaker 3: of what's the most exciting part or what is a
Speaker 3: key takeaway you want to leave the viewer with Adele.
Speaker 3: I'll start with you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's amazing combination because solar plut storage to together
Speaker 5: and as EV, we're actually decarbonizing to most polluting industry
Speaker 5: in the world the more the energy itself. So with
Speaker 5: SOLA itself, it's decarbonizing replacing the fossil fuel with the
Speaker 5: EV together, and that's where de carbonizing the transport industry
Speaker 5: with another biggest polluter in the world. So we have
Speaker 5: to go hand in hand and then we can change
Speaker 5: the whole world, make the whole world cleaning on top
Speaker 5: of that, like Thomas I said, perfectly. So what he's
Speaker 5: doing I think is amazing. Right then, for example, Trina
Speaker 5: is putting on the stationary storage onto the grid, only
Speaker 5: the big one and the EV and then it's like
Speaker 5: a mobile power bank everywhere, very decentralized. Everyone can do
Speaker 5: it and do some contribution, get back to the society,
Speaker 5: like the blackout in Spain. We all have to do
Speaker 5: something with the mobility. We are able to do it,
Speaker 5: do something, give back to the grid. Why not. I
Speaker 5: think it's amazing. And then big company can participate. But
Speaker 5: if I have a eavy car, I can do it too.
Speaker 5: Why not. So it's it's a brilliant idea. I think
Speaker 5: you're putting everything together and make the change like into
Speaker 5: Soli itself.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: I give two soundstep half the haunt today. Look at ground.
Speaker 5: It's really impressive. We are already here and we have
Speaker 5: to push further and quicker and change war all the
Speaker 5: political disruption, but our industry were together. We keep finding
Speaker 5: together and push and people have to less than the
Speaker 5: politician and nobody can stop us. I'm strong believer in this.
Speaker 5: Let's do it together.
Speaker 6: A powerful message. Thomas nothing to add, thank you very
Speaker 6: very much. It's obvious. It's so obvious, Jerald. Why it
Speaker 6: took fifteen years for people to understand. But it's obvious,
Speaker 6: it's there.
Speaker 3: Just do it, and technology is there, is there, yes, Jared.
Speaker 1: I think the thing that I would add is I
Speaker 1: know that almost quite a while, so where what I
Speaker 1: would describe is nonlinear thinkers. And the issue I would
Speaker 1: say is europinion is that our leaders are all linear
Speaker 1: thinkers and we're now living in a non linear world
Speaker 1: where it's very difficult. You can't get McKinsey to just
Speaker 1: tell you what's going to happen because they're going to
Speaker 1: be wrong. And we've lived in this linear world, if
Speaker 1: I may say, since German retification, and that's my concern
Speaker 1: as European is that we need more Thomas's in leadership
Speaker 1: positions that actually think innovatively and get things done quickly.
Speaker 1: And that's what you do in China. We do it together,
Speaker 1: well said.
Speaker 3: I think that's a great, great place.
Speaker 1: And I cannot do it alone.
Speaker 4: Also, thank you.
Speaker 3: Very much for your thoughts, Jared Reed, Thomas Refina adel Jao,
Speaker 3: thank you for joining the Powering Through podcast here at
Speaker 3: the Smartery twenty twenty five. My name is Jonathan Gifford.
Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to
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