WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:24.679 Hello, and welcome to Backflips and Nerds, the Baseball podcast 2 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.359 with a British twist. I am your host today, Russell Lisam, 3 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.960 and I am joined by my interview partner of the hour, 4 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:31.800 John McGee. 5 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:32.359 How are we doing? 6 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:32.679 John? 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.200 Very well, Russ, I'm very well excited about this one. 8 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.119 Can't wait to get going. 9 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:40.560 Yes, we have been hitting twenty twenty five with a 10 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:42.840 force that we haven't seen in a while. But we 11 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.359 have another great person to go with us, and those 12 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:47.640 who have viewing us on YouTube, we'll see that we 13 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:49.240 have Zach'scott here. 14 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:50.880 Welcome Zach. 15 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:52.560 Hey, guys, thanks for having me. 16 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:53.920 No, it's amazing. 17 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.159 And for those who don't know Zach, Zach worked from 18 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:00.000 all the Boston Red sots from twenty four to twenty twenty, 19 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.560 going from an intern to the assistant GM, with many 20 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.640 jobs along that journey. He spent two years with the Mets, 21 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.000 including seven months as the acting GM, and he's gone 22 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.000 on to found a consulting firm, the Four Ring Sports Solution, 23 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:16.719 which has worked with multiple MLB franchises and other American 24 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:19.640 and major sports teams. But we brought Zach, as John said, 25 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:21.680 to discuss about the front office like what would be 26 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:23.799 the teams be doing during the off season to get 27 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.079 ready for the next season. We're going to chat about rosters, 28 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:28.599 We're going to check out the front offices. But before that, 29 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:31.159 John has a very important question for Zach about his 30 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:32.000 favorite player. 31 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.560 Yeah, so, Zach, I have a confession to make you 32 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.120 are you are wholly responsible for one of the most 33 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:44.280 hideous man crushes of all time. So my favorite player 34 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.640 of all time, I'm a huge Red Sox fan. I 35 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.280 want to see if you can guess who that is. 36 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.159 First off, your favorite Red Sox. 37 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:54.239 And it's pretty niche, it's pretty nice. 38 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:56.319 Going to say it's not David Ortiz, then if it's. 39 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.040 Neat, I mean I love him. I love him. But 40 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:01.280 you know, I'm thinking very much in your wheelhouse. I'm 41 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:02.680 going I'm going to put you out of your misery 42 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:04.400 because it would be pretty bad audio if I was 43 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:06.920 just asking you to name any player in the sixteen 44 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.000 years that you were with the team. So, my favorite 45 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:14.159 player is Coji San. I adore him, so I wanted 46 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.120 to And obviously, you know you were pretty instrumental as 47 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:18.759 that great article by Tim Britton when you were with 48 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:20.719 the Mets about how he was one of the guys 49 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:24.280 who you were pushing to bring to the Red Sox. 50 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:26.319 And you know, I'm not going to have another opportunity 51 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.039 to ask you about what it was you saw in 52 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.560 this sort of you know, mid thirties Finesse Japanese picture 53 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:37.000 and what you guys did to unlock the phenomenon that 54 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.680 became became Cogi time in twenty thirteen. 55 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:42.840 I don't think we did anything that you know, I 56 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:47.120 think it was all him, But we did identify that 57 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.280 he may be an undervalued player for a couple of reasons. 58 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:54.240 One age you mentioned health. He had had some health 59 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.520 issues in the past, so that took care of the 60 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.120 market a little bit, and you know, we ended up 61 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:01.159 getting him on one year deal and then retained him 62 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.759 for longer than that. But the reason he was available 63 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.800 was because he doesn't light up a radar gun. So 64 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:11.400 he's someone that I think people now you know, have 65 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:14.280 been able to quantify more than they could at that time. 66 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:18.400 He's the kind of guy that has that special fastball 67 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.840 that plays faster. 68 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:21.680 Than it actually is. 69 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:23.639 You know, he'd throw in the low nineties, but it 70 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:25.599 played more like ninety five ninety six because he just 71 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.960 could really backspin the baseball, and so it had that 72 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.120 that rising effect of hitters. It looked like, you know, 73 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:33.360 they thought it was going to be in one place 74 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:35.639 and they'd swung in it. They'd either hit the bottom 75 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:37.879 of the ball and pop it up or swing and miss. 76 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.719 And then he had a devastating splitter to go with that. 77 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.639 So he had this, you know, what's very common in 78 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.560 Japan actually at least, was this North south way of pitching. 79 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.599 And so he had that fastball that played up in 80 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.400 the zone and that splitter that played below the zone 81 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:55.280 that would get swing and miss. 82 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:56.919 So and he just pumped strikes. 83 00:03:56.919 --> 00:03:59.919 He just attacked hitters, which is always my favorite kind 84 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:03.280 of pitcher, especially closers. And when we at the Red 85 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.919 Sox had really good teams, we won championships with closers 86 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.120 that were similar I'd say Keith Folk and four was 87 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.159 actually kind of similar to Cogi in that he had 88 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.000 the devastating change up instead of a splitter. But he 89 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.920 didn't throw hard, but he got you know, that pitch 90 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:19.519 played up. He also got a lot of pop ups, 91 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:21.800 just like Cogie. They were both very extreme and there 92 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.399 if you looked at their rates of strikeouts and pop ups, 93 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:27.120 they were unusual in that way, so it didn't give 94 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:28.759 up a lot of hard contact, got a lot of 95 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:30.279 swing miss in the fastball, and then the change up 96 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.160 played down and Jonathan Papplebond was the same way. 97 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:34.680 Yeah, where he had you know. 98 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.120 He had the velocity on the fastball that was more 99 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:40.120 what you see these days, but he also had that 100 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.519 extra explosion on it because he backspinned it, and he 101 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:48.000 had a devastating splitter. So it was interesting that three 102 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.800 of the championships that we won were very similar style closers, 103 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:57.240 and they all three of those also just attacked, attacked attacks, 104 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:00.160 so they threw strikes they weren't. You know, we one 105 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:01.839 and eighteen with Krek kimberl is a closer who was 106 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.240 a different kind of you know, more of a slider 107 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.079 fastball slider guy with some control issues at times. And 108 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.439 obviously we actually ended the eighteen World Series with Chris 109 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.199 Sale on the mound. But those three guys were I 110 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.319 think were actually very similar in a lot of ways, 111 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.120 and today those are the kind of pictures when people 112 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:22.399 look at the metrics, that's what they're looking for, is 113 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.879 those fastballs that play that way, and you know, obviously 114 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.240 a secondary pitch that's as good as what they had. 115 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.040 So yeah, Cogi, And you know, besides that, Kogi was 116 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.959 an awesome guy and a lot of fun, a very 117 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.680 funny guy and someone that we just loved having in 118 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.519 the clubhouse. So yeah, we thought it was a bilow opportunity, 119 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:42.480 and you know, he delivered way more value than we 120 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:44.720 could have actually expect ever expected. 121 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.680 Yeah, one of those that I guess from your perspective 122 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.480 as someone who's gone in there making the case for him, 123 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:54.120 was like a slam Dunknden. So that twenty thirteen series 124 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.199 season was just astonishing, Like his pitching line is almost 125 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.079 unprecedented in recent Red Socke history. And then, as you said, 126 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.360 you know, he becomes this sort of larger than life 127 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:07.680 character in amongst those all those you know, burly bearded men, 128 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.920 You've got this little, tiny dude who's just joking around 129 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:13.079 and then he grows a beard and it looks stupid, right, 130 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.279 I mean, that's why I absolutely love him. 131 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:17.240 Yeah, I know, he was. 132 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:19.879 He was a lot of fun and sometimes, you know, 133 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.639 as an organization, you got to get a little lucky 134 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:25.800 to win championships, and definitely that year we had a 135 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.279 lot of good things go our way. 136 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.120 Including his incredible performance. 137 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:32.920 Right, So I mean that that had to be that 138 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:35.199 had to be done. Thank you for humoring me, Zach. 139 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.600 If if you listen to the podcast before, as as 140 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:41.519 many people will have, it's not the first time that 141 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.160 I've been indulged on that, So thank you Russell for 142 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:48.480 allowing me to start the conversation in the appropriate way. 143 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:50.519 So So's He's one of my favorites of all time 144 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.680 that we ever had, So I'm happy to always talk 145 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.240 about Cochi. 146 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:55.240 Yeah, I mean, I think I have a thing for 147 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.720 relief pictures. You know, you're talking about Jonathan Paplevon and 148 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.079 Keith Foka was definitely get me there as well, I 149 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:02.800 have to say. I mean I could go on. We 150 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.560 could do a whole two hours about Red Sox relievers 151 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:08.839 of your tenure, if you like, but probably that would 152 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.120 be a pretty niche concern. So we'll get onto some 153 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:16.720 more general stuff about print offices and yeah, we brought 154 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:20.759 you one, Zach to talk specifically about being in a 155 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:24.839 front office during this period of the year. Right, every 156 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.279 part of the inner baseball front office is intense, but 157 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.439 this one is the one that you're really earning your corn, Right, 158 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.240 This is when there's roster turnover, there's loads of moves 159 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.319 at the margins, but there's some really big set piece 160 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.199 events where GM's assistant gms and other members of the 161 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:43.040 front offices are effectively the stars of the show. You're 162 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:45.920 the only story, right, You're keeping Jeff Passon in a job. 163 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.319 So we wanted to get your insight as someone who's 164 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.879 worked in those environments for such a long time as 165 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:54.720 to what the sort of rhythm and the pace and 166 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.480 what you guys are doing. And it felt like the 167 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.360 right place for us to start is not act at 168 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.639 the start, it's it's in the middle, right, It's at 169 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.519 the winter meetings, which to fans on the outside is 170 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:08.839 a set piece, right. We're also out there waiting for 171 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:11.920 our alerts from from Jeff Passon and Ken Rosenthal and others. 172 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:15.639 They're really mysterious. So I wanted to get a Frint 173 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.879 office perspective at the outset of this conversation about how 174 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.240 they felt for you, like whether whether you dreaded them, 175 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:25.920 was that was that your version of you know, being 176 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:28.360 on the diamond or and kind of what goes on 177 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.800 in those you know, it's not on the diamond, but 178 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.240 in those enormous enormal dome, hotel complexes that you all get, 179 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.960 you know, air conditioning sickness in over the course of 180 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:40.799 six to eight days in December. 181 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:45.279 Well, there's a lot more of people in front offices, 182 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.240 you know, checking out Twitter and waiting for Jeff pass 183 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.960 and then you know, you think we drive all the actions. 184 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.399 That's true, but it's not happening constantly. So there's a 185 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.240 lot of you know, refreshing of MLB trade rumors and 186 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.399 looking at Twitter and staring at each other sometimes, but 187 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.759 there's also a lot of work that The Winter meetings 188 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.399 has definitely changed over you know, the twenty years that 189 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.559 I've been attending, although I haven't actually haven't attended in 190 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:15.279 a few years, and you know, it's it's been a 191 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.360 nice break because they are pretty intense and they can 192 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:24.960 be counterproductive because you can feel a momentum or some 193 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.679 sort of pressure to get something done that could lead 194 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:31.559 to a more emotional decision than is ideal. But for 195 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.159 the most part there, I mean, that's what I did 196 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.639 this job for, right like the times of the year, 197 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.559 the trade deadline, and for me mostly my career is 198 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:43.399 focused on the major league side of it, towards the 199 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.039 end being leading and analytics. You know, there was a 200 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:49.000 draft component. I was always in the draft room at 201 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.879 different times in my career. But you know, so that's 202 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.039 a huge moment for baseball together, but for me, it 203 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.919 was the trade deadline and the off season and specifically 204 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.399 the Winter meetings that that's our opportunity to make an 205 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:04.759 impact to build that next team, and that's the excitement. 206 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.320 That's why I got into sports, and and that's the 207 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.120 fun part. So the Winter meetings is kind of the 208 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:14.279 key point when you get everyone together. It used to 209 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.799 be more where you had a lot of meetings in 210 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.080 person at the Winter meetings with agents. You know, the 211 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.159 GM meetings happened in November. That's a little too early 212 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.600 to get things going with free agents. So a lot 213 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:26.919 of the you're in the peak part of free agency 214 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:29.120 at the Winter meetings and so there's a lot of 215 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.480 conversations with agents. Same thing with teams. You'd meet with 216 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.440 teams to talk about trades in person. There Over the years, 217 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:35.759 there was a lot less of that, to the point 218 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:37.799 where we're like, why are we here all together if 219 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:43.240 we just texting each other anyway, But it's also an 220 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.000 opportunity to see people, you know, friends that you have 221 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:48.360 in the industry that you only see a few times 222 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.600 a year maybe, So that's it's a fun there's a 223 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:54.399 fun part of it too, and it's you know, it's 224 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.080 it's a great development experience for your younger people on 225 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.679 your in your baseball operation staff to kind of just 226 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.360 just observe and see how things kind of go down. 227 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:08.279 But yeah, no, it's i'd get an adrenaline rush leading 228 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.159 into that. I mean, a lot of my time was 229 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.519 spent on being the person in charge of making sure 230 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.519 our decision makers had the most important information at their 231 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:21.320 fingertips so we could move with agility if necessary at 232 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.600 these key points in the off season altogether, but also 233 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.919 at the winter meetings and so you know, the weeks 234 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.200 leading into it, there was a lot of preparation going 235 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.360 on to make sure everyone had everything they needed before 236 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.399 when we got there. And then being there was a rush, 237 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:37.720 it could be exhausting. You're, like you said, you're you're 238 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.559 in a hotel room a lot. There is a lot 239 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:42.799 of time where you can't control the action, so you're 240 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:46.720 waiting a lot and it's a high anxiety level because 241 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:49.200 you really want some stuff to happen, but there's only 242 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:54.039 so much you can control, and you're you. You try 243 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:57.440 to eat healthy, but there's we always have like you'd 244 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.480 always have like a bunch of snacks in the room. 245 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.480 Some would be some years we'd try to be healthy. 246 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.960 Other years, you know, we just cave and just go 247 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.080 all junk food. And there's a lot of good conversations 248 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:10.960 going on. There's people sometimes at the winter meetings that 249 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.159 you weren't normally in the office, scouts, people like Bill 250 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.360 James that would be there that weren't in the office 251 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.279 all the time, that you'd have good conversations with and 252 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.360 be able to catch up, but also talk baseball. 253 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.440 That's awesome, y Gun Russ. 254 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.919 I mean, I was gonna say, like just the quick 255 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:28.519 thing that you talked about there is that the front 256 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.559 offices sometimes get are living on those tweets of paston 257 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.799 and stuff like that. Did you ever have occasions where 258 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.200 either when you were at the top level, that your 259 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.080 team found something out due to or your front office 260 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.120 found something out because Jeff pass and tweeted it and 261 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:47.080 not because you actually told them that something had happened. 262 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.000 About our front office or about other. 263 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:52.919 Either way like this, Yeah, I think obviously, like sometimes 264 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.639 what happens to other teams that's maybe actually the source 265 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:57.559 of themes. But did you ever happen that, Like you 266 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.799 would just done something and there was like three or 267 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:02.320 four or if you knew about it, and then suddenly 268 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.639 before you could tell everybody else what happened, there's a 269 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:05.720 passing tweet. 270 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.679 That would happen, and it was frustrating because you really 271 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:10.799 want the people in your organization to find out first 272 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:13.559 what's going on. If we could get to a place 273 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:16.600 it was almost like a competition within ourselves to like 274 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:18.960 could we get a press release out of a move 275 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.519 before it gets out there on Twitter from a reporter, 276 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:24.639 Like I think you did it? Like five percent of 277 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.840 the time you could do that, and if you did, 278 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.039 it was like this great feeling of accomplishment. Now part 279 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.480 of that is because all these moves have like you know, 280 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:35.120 if it's a trade, you're doing medical assessments, if it's 281 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.360 a if it's a free agent signing, it's there's a 282 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:38.960 physical that has to happen, so like you're not going 283 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.799 to announce anything until it's official, but oftentimes you have 284 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:47.559 an agreement pending physical that will leak out either from 285 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.440 the agent or someone from the team, and all of 286 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:51.679 a sudden, it's out there, and it's like, well, we 287 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:53.759 can't really comment because what if something happens during the 288 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:56.200 physical which has happened, and you have to, you know, 289 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.639 either renegotiate the deal or back out of the deal 290 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.039 altogether because something's you So. 291 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:02.200 Yeah, that definitely. 292 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.919 I always hated when that would come out before we 293 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.759 could communicate it internally, even if it's not the press release. 294 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.799 It's like we would send. 295 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.960 Out an internal email to our entire baseball operation communicating 296 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.399 something we had done, and if it wasn't pending physical, 297 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:17.200 we might send it to a smaller group, so we're 298 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.919 not blasting it out to you know, a couple hundred people. 299 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.679 It's just like a smaller in the office thing, so 300 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.080 people would be aware just in case someone reached out 301 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:26.759 to ask them about it. But yeah, it was always 302 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:28.759 a great feeling of accomplishment if we could keep something 303 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.159 out of the media. And again, we could only control 304 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.200 so much of it. There's another team involved in a 305 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.000 trade or an agent involved in a free agent signing, 306 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.320 so you know, we we could only do our part. 307 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:40.799 I've kind of got this idea in my head, so 308 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.799 I spent a lot of time working in the government 309 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:44.919 here in UK and if things get out, it's like 310 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.799 the worst thing that can happen, and you have something 311 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:48.879 called a leak inquiry and you get like dragged in 312 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.519 and you get pulled over hot calls. Is there a 313 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:53.519 version of that where like who told Jeff you go 314 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:56.759 around there, get everyone's phone. Who's got Jeffs number in here? Yeah? 315 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:01.120 Well so everyone has different feelings about that. It's funny 316 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.399 you mentioned the government because I always say we need 317 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.039 to not take ourselves so seriously, like we were not 318 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.960 holding Pentagon secrets, you know, like we're It's not government secrets. 319 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.879 It's baseball. It's entertainment. 320 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.559 So if something gets out, you don't want it to 321 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.200 You want everything to be confidential until it's appropriate to 322 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.039 put it out there. But it's not the end of 323 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.759 the world. Ultimately, this is entertainment. Let's you know, chill out. 324 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.679 You do want to make sure that you don't want 325 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.840 to upset players a bunch stuff coming out or agents, 326 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:36.480 but you can only do so much. So I have 327 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.840 always felt like it's not worth the effort to try 328 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.840 to track down leaks. I'll say this, like I definitely 329 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.600 believe in some instances the leaks come from above the 330 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.440 GM's head anyway, when it comes like ownership might put 331 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.919 stuff out. So they're the owner, they can do whatever 332 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.399 they want. So I'm not going to all of a sudden, 333 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.240 you know, try to investigate my baseball operation to figure 334 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.480 out who's leaking what. But I've heard stories that other 335 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.279 gms are very different, and I've heard stories that people 336 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.879 have gotten fired for being found out as leaks. I 337 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.159 think that's extreme, and you know, I think there should 338 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:16.320 be conversations about it. Maybe, you know, you get only 339 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:17.960 a certain number of chances, and maybe that happened in 340 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:18.639 those instances. 341 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.720 Maybe it's just a rumor. 342 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:24.080 I don't know, but I think that intensity is a 343 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:25.639 little much and it's a waste of time. We have 344 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.960 too much to do to be tracking down. 345 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.039 A leak of a baseball move. It's just not the 346 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:31.759 end of the world. 347 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.639 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I can see trying to get a 348 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.080 bit of perspective in those situations is exactly the right 349 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:43.879 way to be. But similarly, if something's gone against you, 350 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:46.480 the temptation is going to be there, isn't it. 351 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:48.240 Yeah. 352 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.480 No, I think you know, the way I look at 353 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:53.879 dealing with that was to try to be proactive. I 354 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.919 feel like people within your organization, if they're going to 355 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.399 leak something, it's often because they don't feel connected to 356 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.159 what's going on, and so when they get a nuggative information, 357 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.839 they're more likely to share it because there's maybe an insecurity. 358 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:07.599 They want people to know they're in them No, they 359 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.039 know what's you know, they're in the inner circle if 360 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.079 they're not, or so you have that if you make 361 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.000 your people feel more connected to what you're doing, like 362 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.599 I was. I was incredibly transparent with the Mets and 363 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.079 with the Red Sox to the extent that it could be. 364 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.640 I wasn't in the GM seat there, but my teams. 365 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.599 I would always tell my groups, the people I was 366 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.079 leading what was going on because part of that that's 367 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.440 why they work in baseball, it's the exciting part of it. 368 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.000 Part of it's I want some different opinions on things. 369 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.759 If we're working towards it, they may have a different 370 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:38.640 perspective because they're not as close to it as maybe 371 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.599 I was in the moment. But I also felt like 372 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.000 if we were very transparent about what was going on 373 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:47.960 and shared things, people were going to feel like you're 374 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.359 empowering me with this information, So I'm going to keep 375 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:52.720 it to myself. If you're not doing that and they 376 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.200 get a piece of information, they may be in my mind, 377 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:56.880 it's my theory is that they'd be more likely to 378 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:57.799 actually put it out there. 379 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.839 Yeah, that makes total sense. So sort of circling back 380 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:05.240 to the Winter Meetings as a set pieces, is there 381 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.680 any sort of move that you recall being involved with, 382 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.960 either one that came to fruition or one that didn't, 383 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.799 that that was was that sort of this is what 384 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.319 I'm here for. This is you know, back to the 385 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.599 point that was that was when you were in your element, 386 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.240 That's when the adrenaline was flowing. What was what was 387 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:27.039 an event? Assigning a trade that during that period either 388 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:28.960 did or didn't come to pass for you. That that 389 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:31.319 sort of sums up what that feeling's like. 390 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:34.480 There's so there's a lot, There are a lot. We 391 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:36.480 did a lot of things at the Winter Meetings. You know, 392 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.519 you mentioned at the top twenty thirteen we signed most 393 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:42.400 you know, I think we signed seven free agents that 394 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.160 off season. We were very fortunate we hit on all 395 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.960 seven at least for year one, which led to the championship. 396 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:49.759 You know, for some of those guys that had multi 397 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:51.720 year deals. They didn't hit after that, you know, like 398 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.079 Shane Victorina was great in year one but injured the 399 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.799 last couple of years and didn't really contribute. But we 400 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.359 got our value because we won a World Series. But 401 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.839