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<v Speaker 1>If you have been paying attention to Chris Vandervein of

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<v Speaker 1>nine News, He's got a great Twitter feed. He has

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<v Speaker 1>been on this story, and I feel like it's been

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<v Speaker 1>a while now that Chris has been sort of digging

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<v Speaker 1>into our parole system, how people are parolled, information that

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<v Speaker 1>the parole board uses in order to decide make decisions

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<v Speaker 1>about parole and Chris, first of all, welcome.

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<v Speaker 3>Back to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Manny for having me. Yeah, this has been a

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<v Speaker 2>lengthy investigation. I think technically we started working on it

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<v Speaker 2>in early twenty twenty four last year after a parole

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<v Speaker 2>lead by the name of Vincenzo Moscoso was accused of

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<v Speaker 2>murdering two people in northwest Denver, and since then we've

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<v Speaker 2>really like tried to focus in on, I think identification

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<v Speaker 2>of the what I think are some potentially systemic gaps

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<v Speaker 2>within the parole system of Colorado.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start really quickly with how the parole system

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<v Speaker 1>works in the sense that these evaluations that we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about next, what role they play and whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not someone is paroled. Because the parole board is

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<v Speaker 1>just made up of people who come to a meeting

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<v Speaker 1>with information they get evaluations. They get that stuff. So

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about the evaluations that are done by who

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<v Speaker 1>does these evaluations.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, by corrections officers, Department Corrections officers when they're on inside.

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<v Speaker 2>There's there's a number of assessments that are done and

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<v Speaker 2>in order to understand the story you really understand, like

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<v Speaker 2>basically think of this. Every six months or or every year,

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<v Speaker 2>the Department of Corrections, whether you're an inmate within prison

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<v Speaker 2>or you're arrolling who's out of prison, will try to

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<v Speaker 2>assess your risk level to reoffend. And it's really this

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<v Speaker 2>idea of like, can we ask you a series of

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<v Speaker 2>questions that we'll get to the heart of.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's take Chris Vanderfiedt, the felon.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately I'm not. But let's let's take that as a

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<v Speaker 2>as a hypothetical hypothetical example that I will answer a

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<v Speaker 2>series of questions with a parrole officer crrect softs in

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<v Speaker 2>front of me, and they will come up with a

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<v Speaker 2>score that will determine am I low risk to reoffend?

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<v Speaker 2>Or am I very high risk to reoffend? And based

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<v Speaker 2>upon the answers that that assessment gives, you can sort

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<v Speaker 2>of like give finely tune the level of care, treatment.

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<v Speaker 3>Supervision to that person.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like it's it's getting into the weeds a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit, but I think it's important to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>understand that base level. Yeah, and the higher the score

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<v Speaker 2>that you have, the more risk that you have. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not predictive fully in nature, that means to guarantee that

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<v Speaker 2>Chris biannit means going to reoffend if he's high risk

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<v Speaker 2>or very high risk to reoffend, but it means statistically speaking.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm more inclined to reoffend. And you want to know.

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<v Speaker 2>That when somebody's out on parole, are there some of

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<v Speaker 2>you got to watch closely or some of you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to watch this bock so and.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things, I mean, there are things, and

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<v Speaker 1>I want to believe that people are capable of change

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<v Speaker 1>and capable of rehabilitation. So I would assume that some

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<v Speaker 1>of those measures could change dramatically over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>one's incarceration. But some of those measures are should be static, right,

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<v Speaker 1>They should be the same on every report. How many

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<v Speaker 1>felonies this person has committed, has this person violated parole

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<v Speaker 1>in the past. I mean, these are numbers, These are

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<v Speaker 1>hard data that should never change. And that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>where we're talking about here, right, That's where the.

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<v Speaker 2>Issues are, and that's what we're the investigation is really

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<v Speaker 2>sort of concentrating on because they're there. They're the more

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<v Speaker 2>the once more obvious errors in these assessments.

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<v Speaker 3>And think about it this way.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a question, were you ever expelled from high school

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<v Speaker 2>or school?

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<v Speaker 3>If the answer to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Question is yes, If Chris, if I were expelled from

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<v Speaker 2>what Thomas Jefferson High School is the school I went

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<v Speaker 2>to here in Denver, if I was expelled from TJ,

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<v Speaker 2>and the answer to that is yes in twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 2>then the answer that twenty twenty four would still be yes.

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<v Speaker 3>That is what they call in the.

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<v Speaker 2>Business a static schoore, And and what we've been finding

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<v Speaker 2>these static scores is that sometimes, like Chris Vannery twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 2>ever expelled from DJ, yes, and twenty twenty four No,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a mistake, that's an error. And what conversely what

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<v Speaker 2>happens with that is that you know, you get one

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<v Speaker 2>point for answering yes to if you've been expelled from school,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you know years later if it's no, then

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<v Speaker 2>it's zero points. And as I talked about the amount

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<v Speaker 2>of points matters. The higher the points, the higher the risk.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you mess up on those scores, now, all

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<v Speaker 2>of a sudden, your risk level is getting lower than

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<v Speaker 2>it should, right, And that's what's happening. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, lots of times it may be it

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<v Speaker 2>may be relatively inconsequential when we're talking about two points

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever, but sometimes it's so much that suddenly somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who is who is who should be like very high

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<v Speaker 2>or high risk, is now moderate risk or in the

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<v Speaker 2>example that we've talked about last a couple of weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 2>low risk. And that means you're not not getting a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of interaction with your prole officer, you're not being

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<v Speaker 2>drug tested as much. And again, you'd like to think

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<v Speaker 2>that people who are high risk to re offend they're

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<v Speaker 2>getting the most interaction with right role because that means

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<v Speaker 2>that they're checking in on them, are they are they

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<v Speaker 2>noticing maybe they're spirally, maybe they need more care. This

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<v Speaker 2>is when I say I think we've identified a systemic problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm convinced of it, because you know, while it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean that the people that we've identified, it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that that absolutely they would not have murdered somebody had

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<v Speaker 2>they caught this. It just means that as a whole,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not catching people as much as we should in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of assigning their risk level, and it means overall

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<v Speaker 2>we're less inclined as a state to provide the right

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<v Speaker 2>level of care and treatment and supervision to people who

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<v Speaker 2>can be inherently dangerous.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm more I mean, I'm more suspicious than you

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<v Speaker 1>are about about the beginning part of this, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think that that's the part and all of your points

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<v Speaker 1>you made about levels of supervision are spot on. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if you have somebody that has a propensity for violence, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I want them, if they get out of prison, to

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<v Speaker 1>be carefully monitored, right.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to know that they're.

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<v Speaker 1>Being looked at and being.

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<v Speaker 3>Followed up on.

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<v Speaker 1>But the reality is is that we have kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a significant issue right now, and it's either sloppy record

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<v Speaker 1>keeping or a system that is so cumbersome that it

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<v Speaker 1>lends itself to sloppy record keeping and that in and

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<v Speaker 1>of itself needs to be fixed, or it's someone being

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<v Speaker 1>lazy and not doing a good job that needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be fixed, or it's more malicious.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, the suspicious level.

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<v Speaker 1>In me, I'm like, is it something more malicious where

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<v Speaker 1>you have people that are getting numbers changed because of

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<v Speaker 1>either relationships within the prison or or you know, even

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<v Speaker 1>something more nefarious than that. And I don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>cast dispersions, but I think all of that should be

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<v Speaker 1>the focus of an intense investigation. I think whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>answer is, and it could be something really simple to solve.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that not only we.

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<v Speaker 1>The public, but also the men in prison deserve to

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<v Speaker 1>know that their records as they are are not being

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<v Speaker 1>meddled with, right because how do we know they're not

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<v Speaker 1>being meddled with in the other direction, making low risk prisoners.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree with that.

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<v Speaker 2>I there's a there's a man in the name of

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Lovin's we interviewed in our story recently. He helped

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<v Speaker 2>create the assessment system that Colorado uses, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>a verse of the idea of like actually criticizing Colorado

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<v Speaker 2>because he didn't want to go in that direction. But

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<v Speaker 2>what he did say is this, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>really important. He says it is worse to get assessments

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<v Speaker 2>wrong than to not do assessments at all, Meaning if

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to do them, you need to do them

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<v Speaker 2>correctly because you can assign. Let's say, let's say you

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<v Speaker 2>do have somebody who is inherently low risk and they're

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<v Speaker 2>treated as high risk, and you're having too much too

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<v Speaker 2>much resources devoted to a person who is at low

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<v Speaker 2>risk to reoffend. Ideally, what you want to do is

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<v Speaker 2>devote the most amount of resources you can to the

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<v Speaker 2>people who are statistically speaking, most likely to reoffend. This

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<v Speaker 2>is we don't have all the money in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>It's sort of like put towards parole. People on parole.

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<v Speaker 2>Not all of them are going to reoffend, but statistically speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>they're much more likely to reoffend because they've already offended

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<v Speaker 2>in the first place. They're on parole, they've gotten out

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<v Speaker 2>of prison, and so you want to believe that the

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<v Speaker 2>state is doing a good job of saying, Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>Chris fanitmy is high risk.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to devote like you got to check in

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<v Speaker 2>with your prole officer every two weeks or every week

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<v Speaker 2>because we want to know how you're doing. But if

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Fantamin is low risk, then you don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>give as much resources. I don't have to check in

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<v Speaker 2>as often with the prole office, and we do have

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<v Speaker 2>a problem in this state when it comes to crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>high profile crimes that are admitted by paroles, and there

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<v Speaker 2>are a number of high profile crimes that have been

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<v Speaker 2>committed by people on parole. Next week, we're taking a

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<v Speaker 2>deeper look into a man by the name of Ricky

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<v Speaker 2>Lee Royball Smith who was on parole and he's now

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<v Speaker 2>accused of a double homicide in Aurora on colfax. And

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<v Speaker 2>he's also the main suspect, by the way, in a

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<v Speaker 2>death inside the Denver jail and a death that happened

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty two.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a guy that is potentially very dangerous and.

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<v Speaker 2>The state did not do a good job of assigning

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<v Speaker 2>his risk level.

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<v Speaker 3>It's clear as day.

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<v Speaker 2>So when it comes down to what needs to happen,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I said these two before when I talked

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<v Speaker 2>to before, like it shouldn't just be up to a

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<v Speaker 2>reporter at nine News to investigate this problem. I openly

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<v Speaker 2>admit there's eight thousand people on parole in the state

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<v Speaker 2>Colorado right now. I cannot single handedly, with the help

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<v Speaker 2>of my team, look into all eight thousand cases and

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<v Speaker 2>see how the state is doing.

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<v Speaker 3>But the state does have the resources and.

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<v Speaker 2>The power to care a little bit more about this

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<v Speaker 2>and actually identify, Okay, what is the extent of the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>And what scares me the most is that we don't

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<v Speaker 2>know the extent of this problem right now.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is significant because we don't know how many

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<v Speaker 1>other paroles are out there probably shouldn't be in the community,

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<v Speaker 1>or I mean, even as I said, it's like, it

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like a silly thing to worry about that someone

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<v Speaker 1>who is a low risk offender would be kept in

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<v Speaker 1>prison right as a member of the population or likewise

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<v Speaker 1>it's still a criminal. But for me that does matter,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I want the people in our justice system to

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<v Speaker 1>be treated the way our justice system is designed to

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<v Speaker 1>treat them wherever they are, right at wherever level they are.

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<v Speaker 1>But have you seen any consistency in the records that

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<v Speaker 1>you have pulled? This seems to be more pervasive in

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<v Speaker 1>one prison or another, or does it seem to be

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<v Speaker 1>consistent across the whole system.

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<v Speaker 2>I think what I've seen so far is that it's

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<v Speaker 2>consistent across the board. And I think what we've just

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<v Speaker 2>started to get into recently, we talked a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>assessments of people on parole, But there's assessments of people.

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<v Speaker 3>That are inmates that are in prison.

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<v Speaker 2>And keep in mind, I'm sure you're well aware of this.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is surprising for the public is if

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Pannamine is given a twenty year sentence to prison,

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<v Speaker 2>statistically speaking, I'm going to do about ten years of

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<v Speaker 2>that prison sentence and then I'm going to be on

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<v Speaker 2>parole for a certain period of time. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>parole that happens in the state of Colorado is discretionary parole,

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<v Speaker 2>where the parole board gets to say, yeah, we think

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<v Speaker 2>you're ready to be parolled. And one of the tools

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<v Speaker 2>they're using to decide if somebody should be parolled discretionarily

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<v Speaker 2>early are these assessments. And so if you're getting the assessment,

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<v Speaker 2>we know they're getting these assessments wrong in prison because

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<v Speaker 2>we've found documented cases where they're getting these assessments wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>And it doesn't mean the pro board's going to release

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<v Speaker 2>this person. But if if you're looking at somebody that

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<v Speaker 2>you might may or may not release the prison and

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<v Speaker 2>they're low risk THY offend or modern risk thy offense.

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<v Speaker 3>You may be more inclined to proll.

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<v Speaker 2>That person as opposed to very high risk toy offense.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a problem too.

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<v Speaker 1>Amen to that, Chris. I appreciate the story. I've been

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<v Speaker 1>following along as you add. Every time I see a

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<v Speaker 1>new face on your Twitter feed, I'm like, oh, Chris

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<v Speaker 1>has found another one in his little back of Chris,

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<v Speaker 1>have you spoken to the Attorney General's office about this

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<v Speaker 1>and said, hey, would you guys or.

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<v Speaker 3>Could you guy?

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<v Speaker 1>Or can someone just get to the bottom of this,

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<v Speaker 1>because to your point, the state does should have the

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<v Speaker 1>resources to figure out what the problem is.

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<v Speaker 2>I would I would yes to the AG's office. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think specifically, it is the governor who appoints the

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<v Speaker 2>head of the Department of Corrections. It is the Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Corrections that will not go on camera with us,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is the governor who will not go on

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<v Speaker 2>camera with us to discuss specific questions that we have

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<v Speaker 2>have and I do think the responsibility here lies the governor.

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<v Speaker 2>The governor appoints the executive director of the Priment of Corrections.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the boss of DOC. That's the person that determines

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<v Speaker 2>how this goes. That's the person that determines, Hey, we

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<v Speaker 2>need to look further into this to see if you know,

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<v Speaker 2>does Chris have some wack of doodle idea of what's

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<v Speaker 2>going on in the pro system or is he on

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<v Speaker 2>to something?

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<v Speaker 3>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'm onto something, but I think I would

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<v Speaker 2>not sort of like a lot of responsibility here lies

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<v Speaker 2>with Governor Polis one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you and I are in a similar vote. He

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<v Speaker 1>won't come on my show either, so I can appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 1>But Chris, keep up the good work. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>keep sharing the story. I think it's a really important story.

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<v Speaker 1>And we've had way too many high not even just

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<v Speaker 1>the high prof We've just had way too many people

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<v Speaker 1>whose lives were destroyed or taken by people who probably

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't have been walking around. And I think that that's

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<v Speaker 1>significant and something that we should all be concerned about

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<v Speaker 1>as we're trying to move prime in the right to

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<v Speaker 1>direction in Colorado. I think all of this is connected.

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<v Speaker 1>So I appreciate you making this your cause and just

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<v Speaker 1>keeping the digging in and hopefully maybe the Attorney General's

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<v Speaker 1>office and the governor we'll hear some pressure and begin

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<v Speaker 1>to actually say we should probably figure out what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>You talk about victims of crime, there's a man bit

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<v Speaker 2>of the name of Jesse Schaeffer, who was murdered back

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<v Speaker 2>in late June, allegedly at least according to the Royal

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<v Speaker 2>Police Department, by this Ricky Lee roy Ballsmith. I talked

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<v Speaker 2>to his family not too long ago. They live in Salida.

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<v Speaker 2>Their story we're going to have on Tuesday Night. This

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<v Speaker 2>is devastating. Victims of crime need to be heard and

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<v Speaker 2>they are curious about what we found, and quite frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't blame that that's going to.

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<v Speaker 1>Be on Tuesday Night's nine News. I appreciate your time today,

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<v Speaker 1>Chris very much. That's Chris Vandervein. Thanks Andy, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>have a great day, man,