WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've

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<v Speaker 1>gotten lucky?

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<v Speaker 2>Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in

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<v Speaker 2>my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have

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<v Speaker 2>to say?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes?

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<v Speaker 3>You do?

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<v Speaker 2>In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?

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<v Speaker 1>Really?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?

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<v Speaker 4>I never win?

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<v Speaker 3>And tell well, there you have it.

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<v Speaker 1>You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com.

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<v Speaker 5>Play for free right now?

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<v Speaker 1>he wants every day.

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<v Speaker 6>Else step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse.

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<v Speaker 6>With family, canoli's and spins mean everything?

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<v Speaker 3>Now you want to get mixed up in the family business,

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<v Speaker 3>Introducing The Godfather at champacasino dot com.

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<v Speaker 6>Test your luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot.

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<v Speaker 3>Someday I will call upon you to do a service

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<v Speaker 6>Play the Godfather now at champacasino dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Family vdW group. NOPERD is necessary if

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<v Speaker 2>we were privitted by loss, he terms and convisions eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>plus love.

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<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking

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<v Speaker 5>Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 5>written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker vck. Every

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<v Speaker 5>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 5>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 5>journalist and author Dan Zupansky.

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<v Speaker 7>Good evening, This is your host Dan Zepanski for the

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<v Speaker 7>program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in True crime

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<v Speaker 7>History and the authors that have written about them. Sheila

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<v Speaker 7>Labarre liked to troll the personal ads and homeless shelters,

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<v Speaker 7>looking for men whom society had rejected for one reason

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<v Speaker 7>or another, men she could easily dominate, both verbally and sexually.

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<v Speaker 7>One by one, she invited them to her remote New

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<v Speaker 7>Hampshire farmhouse, where she engaged them in s and m

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<v Speaker 7>But over time sex gave way to brutal acts of torture,

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<v Speaker 7>as she mercilessly flogged and beat her captives until they

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<v Speaker 7>confessed to committing unspeakable acts. Once satisfied that they had

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<v Speaker 7>paid for their sins, Sheila savagely slaughtered them and burned

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<v Speaker 7>their remains on her farm. From the disturbing audio tape

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<v Speaker 7>Sheila made of her victim's confessions to her own bizarre statements,

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<v Speaker 7>which she claimed to have returned from the dead to

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<v Speaker 7>be God's avenger. The Burn Farm takes you behind the

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<v Speaker 7>scenes of the scandal that rocked a quiet New Hampshire town,

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<v Speaker 7>a New England town and in the twisted, depraved mind

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<v Speaker 7>of a manipula bit of cold blooded murderer. Our book

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<v Speaker 7>this evening is Burn Farm with my special guest, journalist

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<v Speaker 7>and author Michael Benson. We don't have him on the

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<v Speaker 7>line as of yet. I'm hoping that I had a

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<v Speaker 7>little bit of mix up with daylight Saving time. I

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<v Speaker 7>had no idea that not everybody was on the same

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<v Speaker 7>page with the daylight saving time, so the confusion. I

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<v Speaker 7>take the responsibility for that not making it very clear

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<v Speaker 7>exactly what time we were on slated for today, and

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<v Speaker 7>Michael was good enough to there was another mix up.

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<v Speaker 7>I had a hard drive fry and a lot of

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<v Speaker 7>information I had to piece back together via email, and

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<v Speaker 7>so I've got a couple of the guests their order

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<v Speaker 7>of the schedule of the to appear on the program.

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<v Speaker 7>Mixed up. So Michael Benson was good enough to who

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<v Speaker 7>was originally scheduled for last week to come on this week,

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<v Speaker 7>and here we have Michael Benson. So all's well, do

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<v Speaker 7>you think, Michael Dan, how are you?

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<v Speaker 8>I'm doing well. I didn't realize I was supposed to

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<v Speaker 8>call you.

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<v Speaker 7>Ah, there we go. There's always something that's well explained

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<v Speaker 7>by me. I apologize, but thank you very much for

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<v Speaker 7>agreeing to come on this program, and welcome to the

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<v Speaker 7>program True Murder. Michael Benson, thank you very much, thanks

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<v Speaker 7>for having me. Thank you very much. I just went

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<v Speaker 7>and gave the description of Sheila Lebar and what this

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<v Speaker 7>story is basically about. But let's get into the Let's

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<v Speaker 7>get into the nitty gritty here with The main character

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<v Speaker 7>in this incredible story is a woman named Sheila Labar

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<v Speaker 7>formerly Sheila Bailey, raised in a place called Fort Payne, Alabama.

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<v Speaker 7>Tell us about her life growing up. What was her

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<v Speaker 7>life like in Fort Payne, Alabama. What kind of community

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<v Speaker 7>was she from?

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<v Speaker 8>Well, you know, it was a brural Alabama town and

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<v Speaker 8>she was the youngest of six. They didn't have a

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<v Speaker 8>lot of money. Dad smoothed out blacktop during the day

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<v Speaker 8>and drank at night. Sometimes mom worked in a hospital,

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<v Speaker 8>but a lot of times she was home. The problem

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<v Speaker 8>was that, according to Sheila and her older sister, Lynn,

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<v Speaker 8>Sheila was sexually abused by her father and his friends,

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<v Speaker 8>and that her mom knew about it but failed to

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<v Speaker 8>protect her. Her sister said that not only had she

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<v Speaker 8>seen Shila be abused, but she herself had been abused

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<v Speaker 8>as well. Are using trouble hearing me? I have a

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<v Speaker 8>lot of static.

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<v Speaker 7>There is a lot of static, but it seems to

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<v Speaker 7>be emanating from your from your US, your location, but

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<v Speaker 7>I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 8>Okay, could you try giving me a quick call?

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<v Speaker 7>I can't do that as it's set up right now.

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<v Speaker 7>We're live and I can't break from this.

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<v Speaker 8>All right, give me the number again quick and I'll

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<v Speaker 8>call a second time.

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<v Speaker 7>Okay, it's three four seven seven four zero six four.

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<v Speaker 8>Okay, I'll be back in thirty seconds. Sorry about this.

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<v Speaker 7>We're gonna wait for Michael to call back in. He's right.

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<v Speaker 7>That line was extremely noisy. See if we can pick

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<v Speaker 7>a little headway. I know that the blog talk introduction

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<v Speaker 7>or instructions to me were distorted somewhat, but I didn't

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<v Speaker 7>have that background noise as a feature, so we're hoping

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<v Speaker 7>to have Michael back on. This is an incredible book

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<v Speaker 7>by the way, Burn Farm not for the faint of heart.

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<v Speaker 7>A lot of a lot of these books are that

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<v Speaker 7>I have covered. Are some of these subjects which I

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<v Speaker 7>find most interesting. This is one of those, Burn Farm

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<v Speaker 7>on the more extreme ends of true crime. And here

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<v Speaker 7>we are back with Michael Benson.

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<v Speaker 8>It has something to do with the weather here in

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<v Speaker 8>New York. We're having both sleet and thunder, so maybe

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<v Speaker 8>problems with the connection to the satellite or something. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 8>hopefully you can hear me.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, it's a little bit better for sure.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, her sister backed up her story that she'd been abused,

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<v Speaker 8>and Sheila said that she grew up into a woman

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<v Speaker 8>who liked men, but she had trouble having a fulfilling

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<v Speaker 8>sex life during her early adult years because she still

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<v Speaker 8>had infantile genitalia and couldn't handle the well endowed men

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<v Speaker 8>she attracted. Now it's uncertain exactly how many times she

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<v Speaker 8>was married, but it was a few, and everyone agrees

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<v Speaker 8>that her first marriage was in the early nineteen eighties

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<v Speaker 8>to Alabama local named Ronnie Jennings. Later in life, Shila

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<v Speaker 8>would develop an obsession with being in control at all times,

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<v Speaker 8>but that personality trait wasn't fully developed when she was

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<v Speaker 8>a young woman. I mean, later on, I think she

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<v Speaker 8>had just beaten the crap out of him. But when

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<v Speaker 8>she was a younger woman, she decided to hurt herself instead.

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<v Speaker 8>So when she couldn't have her way with her first husband,

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<v Speaker 8>she swallowed an overdose of pills and then drove her

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<v Speaker 8>car until she passed out at the wheel and cracked up.

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<v Speaker 8>She was taken by a helicopter to a hospital where

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<v Speaker 8>she spent days in a coma, and she woke up

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<v Speaker 8>believing she had died, gone to heaven, and had been

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<v Speaker 8>sent back by God to rid the world of pedophiles. Wow,

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<v Speaker 8>so that's her psychological makeup. Now we next pick her

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<v Speaker 8>up in nineteen eighty seven, and she is in Nashville, Tennessee.

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<v Speaker 8>She wants to be a country and Western singer, and

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<v Speaker 8>she's putting ads in sex oriented newspapers looking for submissive

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<v Speaker 8>partners men who are willing to endure her discipline. And

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<v Speaker 8>that was how she met doctor William Labam as sixty

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<v Speaker 8>year old mild mannered chiropractor who lived in a farm

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<v Speaker 8>house in the middle of nowhere in New Hampshire.

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<v Speaker 7>That is go ahead, go ahead, you Now.

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<v Speaker 8>The nearest town was a small village called Epping, and

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<v Speaker 8>the nearest city was Portsmouth, which is why I was

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<v Speaker 8>early to find out about this case. My agent, Jake

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<v Speaker 8>Elwell of Harold Obern Associates, grew up in Portsmouth, and

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<v Speaker 8>as soon as this all went down, you know, he

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<v Speaker 8>gave me a call and said you should do a book,

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<v Speaker 8>call it the Burn Farm. And it was never called

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<v Speaker 8>anything else. So anyway, she she eventually comes back to

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<v Speaker 8>Epping with doctor Lebar and they are not husband and wife.

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<v Speaker 8>They were never married, and she starts to take control

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<v Speaker 8>of his life. She changes the name of his farm,

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<v Speaker 8>she takes over the business end of his chiropractic practice,

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<v Speaker 8>and with a meanness that went right down to her bones,

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<v Speaker 8>she humiliated him at every turn. She became the town

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<v Speaker 8>tramp as well as the tramp of several surrounding towns

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<v Speaker 8>as well. Now, like I said, she never married doctor

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<v Speaker 8>Lebar son. Certain how she felt she could get away

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<v Speaker 8>with taking his name, but she did, and she referred

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<v Speaker 8>to herself as Shila Lebar from that point on, and

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<v Speaker 8>a judge after doctor Lebar died ruled that she was

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<v Speaker 8>indeed his common law of wife, so everyone called.

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<v Speaker 7>Her sorry it wasn't. There also that he actually modified

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<v Speaker 7>his will to will her everything that he owned in

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<v Speaker 7>a couple a couple of properties. He was well off,

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<v Speaker 7>the business, the properties, the farm.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, yeah, the legitimacy of that particular will is in question,

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<v Speaker 8>so especially since when she was while she was living

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<v Speaker 8>in his house she married another man. She had several

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<v Speaker 8>living lovers. First was a Jamaican man named Dwayne Ennis,

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<v Speaker 8>and she married him and the marriage didn't last long

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<v Speaker 8>and eventually us escape back to Jamaica unharmed. But there

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<v Speaker 8>was a steady string of lovers she had right in

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<v Speaker 8>doctor Lebarr's home. Next came Jimmy Brackett, who was a

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<v Speaker 8>mentally slow individual who did chores around the farm and

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<v Speaker 8>became Shila's increasingly abused sex slave. He too, managed to

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<v Speaker 8>get away with his life, but not until Sheila broke

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<v Speaker 8>his teeth with the handle of a basting brush as

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<v Speaker 8>they bathed together. And it's unknown why they had the

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<v Speaker 8>basting brush, and that's help with them now. In December

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<v Speaker 8>two thousand, doctor Lebar passed away and Sheila assumed control

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<v Speaker 8>of his estate. Pulling out the will. You mentioned that

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<v Speaker 8>Bill's kids do nothing about They had no idea he

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<v Speaker 8>had made out a new will. She immediately had doctor

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<v Speaker 8>lebar cremate it boom. There wasn't going to be any

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<v Speaker 8>autopsies there. And although there were those who said doctor

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<v Speaker 8>Lebarre's complexion had gone green during the last days of

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<v Speaker 8>his life, indicating that something was making him sick. During

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<v Speaker 8>his last days, says his common law wife, Sheila, assumed

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<v Speaker 8>control of the farm. The will said the doctor was

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<v Speaker 8>stiffing his kids and giving everything to the kind and

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<v Speaker 8>wonderful woman known to the world as Shila Labar and

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<v Speaker 8>it was without him as her anchor that her life

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<v Speaker 8>really started to spiral out of control. In two thousand

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<v Speaker 8>and five, she takes in a homeless man named Michael Deloge,

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<v Speaker 8>whose small man mentally slow, and she beats him up

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<v Speaker 8>repeatedly and he would run away. People would see him

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<v Speaker 8>walking down the road heading away from Shila's with his

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<v Speaker 8>face bleeding, and she would just get in the car

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<v Speaker 8>and go to the homeless shelter to pick him up.

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<v Speaker 8>You know, he couldn't get away. He didn't have the

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<v Speaker 8>mental capacity to figure out how to escape from her,

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<v Speaker 8>and she eventually tortured him, hitting him to confess to

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<v Speaker 8>being a pedophile with an incestuous past. Then she tort

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<v Speaker 8>until he was dead, cut up his body and threw

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<v Speaker 8>it into the burn pile for incineration. And then in

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<v Speaker 8>February two thousand and six, she meets Kenneth County, a

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<v Speaker 8>memorley handicapped young man with the sophistication of an eleven

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<v Speaker 8>year old, and he turns out to be her final victim.

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<v Speaker 7>Now, how did you talk about Sheila Lebar and how everyone,

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<v Speaker 7>including the police kind of stayed away from her. You

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<v Speaker 7>talked about the numerous complaints that Sheila made to police

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<v Speaker 7>about everything, her neighbors all kinds of numerous complaints about

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<v Speaker 7>the officials that wouldn't respond to any of her complaints.

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<v Speaker 7>There was a litany of complaints that this woman made.

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<v Speaker 7>City officials and neighbors wanted to stay clear of her.

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<v Speaker 7>Tell us a little bit more about her bizarre behavior.

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<v Speaker 7>You say that it really took a turn when doctor

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<v Speaker 7>Lebar act he passed away. So tell us a little

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<v Speaker 7>bit about her relationship with the neighbors and some of

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<v Speaker 7>her odd behavior.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, I think that she had the police of Epping

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<v Speaker 8>lulled into it. That's just Sila being Sheila attitude. She

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<v Speaker 8>the police went out there tens of times. You know,

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<v Speaker 8>she would she would call saying that her boyfriend was

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<v Speaker 8>beating her up. You know, they would call saying she

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<v Speaker 8>was beating them up. Uh. Sometimes she would be beating

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<v Speaker 8>them up. They would they would call nine one one,

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<v Speaker 8>and then she would punch herself just before police arrived

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<v Speaker 8>and said he hit me. Police had a rule, it

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<v Speaker 8>was the Shila rule that node they had to go

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<v Speaker 8>in Paris to her house because if they went by themselves,

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<v Speaker 8>she would expose themselves and try to and trap them

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<v Speaker 8>into some sort of sexual situation.

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<v Speaker 7>Right now, there was the Kenneth County County was spotted

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<v Speaker 7>in a walm days before he was officially somebody was

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<v Speaker 7>reporting him missing. Tell us about who initiated the search

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<v Speaker 7>for this man that had the capacity of eleven year old,

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<v Speaker 7>and also tell us where the couple was spotted away

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<v Speaker 7>from the farm a couple of times.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, Sheila met Kenneth County on a singles phone chat line.

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<v Speaker 8>He was a nice kid. He wasn't terribly bright. He

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<v Speaker 8>lived with his mom. He had tried to go into

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<v Speaker 8>the army and wasn't able to make it through basic

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<v Speaker 8>training and felt miserably felt like a failure. He really

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<v Speaker 8>wanted to get out and be an adult on his own,

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<v Speaker 8>so he got an apartment not far from where his

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<v Speaker 8>mom lived, had a roommate, and everything was fine until

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<v Speaker 8>he called a sex chat line that he saw a

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<v Speaker 8>commercial for on TV and Sheila was on the other

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<v Speaker 8>end of the line. Next thing you know, they're having

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<v Speaker 8>their first date on Valentine's Day in two thousand and six.

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<v Speaker 8>They meet at a hotel in Hampton. They go out

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<v Speaker 8>in the parking lot and have sex twice, and a

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<v Speaker 8>week later, County leaves his Massachusetts home, telling his roommate

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<v Speaker 8>that he'll be back, but he never comes back. He

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<v Speaker 8>leaves his personal items behind and begins living at the

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<v Speaker 8>farm with Sheila. So it's only six days after their

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<v Speaker 8>first date when Kenny calls his mom and he sounds bad.

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<v Speaker 8>He's complaining about mistreatment, and Sheila grabs the phone away

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<v Speaker 8>from him and says, you know, we want to be

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<v Speaker 8>left alone. Kenny's happy with me and hangs up. So

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<v Speaker 8>Kenny's mom, Carolyn, relives that Sheila hadn't counted on picking

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<v Speaker 8>up a man that somebody cared about. And this turned

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<v Speaker 8>out to be her big mistake because Carolyn Lodge kept

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<v Speaker 8>tracks of her Kenny, and she called the state police

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<v Speaker 8>immediately to express her alarm. You know, my son step.

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<v Speaker 6>Into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

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<v Speaker 6>With family, canol's and spins mean everything.

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<v Speaker 3>Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.

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<v Speaker 6>Introducing the Godfather at Champa Casino dot com. Test your

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00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.519
<v Speaker 6>luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather Slodge.

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<v Speaker 3>Someday I will call upon you to do a service

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00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:22.680
<v Speaker 3>for me.

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<v Speaker 6>Play the Godfather now at Champacasino dot com.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to the Family vdW group.

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<v Speaker 9>Now perch is necessary. I believe we're premitted by loss.

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<v Speaker 9>He terms and conditions eighteen plus.

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<v Speaker 8>Is mentally handicapped. He's been taken by a strange woman.

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<v Speaker 8>Please go get him. So by the twenty fourth, so

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<v Speaker 8>it's ten days after their first date. Now, County is

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<v Speaker 8>reported missing to the Epping police for the first time

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<v Speaker 8>by his mother and they go out to Shield's farm

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<v Speaker 8>to see if he's okay. You know, she said, oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 8>go ahead.

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<v Speaker 7>So what happens when police go out to the farm.

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<v Speaker 8>What is it? Yeah, and she says he's in the tub.

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<v Speaker 8>He can't come out. He says, sorry, man, we have

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<v Speaker 8>to see him. So Kenny gets out of the tub

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<v Speaker 8>and comes out, comes to the door. He's got a

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<v Speaker 8>towel around him. She says, there he is now leave

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<v Speaker 8>and the cops leave, every indication that they're a little

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<v Speaker 8>bit frightened of her, and when she barks at them

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<v Speaker 8>to go, they go.

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<v Speaker 9>Now.

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<v Speaker 8>The next day, she faxes the Epping police a document that,

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<v Speaker 8>in theory Kenny wrote. Kenny signed it anyway, and it says,

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<v Speaker 8>I trust only Shila Labar and we are happy a

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<v Speaker 8>couple of two adults, and we want to be left

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<v Speaker 8>alone as far as the cops are concerned. That's that

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<v Speaker 8>does it? You know, the mother no longer has any

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<v Speaker 8>rights over me. He's an adult man. Then comes the

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<v Speaker 8>Walmart incident. It's it's March eleventh now, and Sheila walks

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<v Speaker 8>into Walmart with Kenny, who's starting to look a little

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<v Speaker 8>beat up, but he's walking around and she suddenly makes

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<v Speaker 8>a big fuss and complains that another customer has just

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<v Speaker 8>hit her husband. And she looks in and she says,

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<v Speaker 8>look at him, he's all beat up. Look he just

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<v Speaker 8>got beat up by one of your customers. And the

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<v Speaker 8>Walmart employee says, it doesn't look like he just got

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<v Speaker 8>beat up, and she says, all that those come from

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<v Speaker 8>a car accident he was in. Those come from an

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<v Speaker 8>explosion where there was glass, but he just got hit

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<v Speaker 8>by We're going to sue. So he said, what if

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<v Speaker 8>you mentioned the word sue to a Walmart employee, you

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<v Speaker 8>are asked to leave immediately, And she was and it

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<v Speaker 8>was chalked up as just a strange incident until six

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<v Speaker 8>days later when she comes back to the same Walmart,

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<v Speaker 8>and this time she's got Kenny in a wheelchair and

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<v Speaker 8>he is really looking bad. He is green in color,

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<v Speaker 8>the same bad complexion people noticed in doctor Lebar during

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<v Speaker 8>the last days of his life. And she's pushing around

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<v Speaker 8>in a wheelchair and he's got a huge cut across

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<v Speaker 8>his no and these battered they're looked like burn marks

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00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:07.799
<v Speaker 8>on him. And she again causes disturbance and police are

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<v Speaker 8>called this time and the officers they come and they

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<v Speaker 8>see they see Kenny in the wheelchair looking beaten, and

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<v Speaker 8>again Chila takes charge and says, you know, just leave

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<v Speaker 8>us alone. We're happy, we're fine, And they said, well,

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<v Speaker 8>we got to make sure that he can walk. So

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<v Speaker 8>Kenny gets out of the wheelchair, walks three steps, gets

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<v Speaker 8>back in the wheelchair, and she takes them out, puts

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<v Speaker 8>them into the car, and gets in and gets him

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<v Speaker 8>out of there. Now, the question here, I think is

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<v Speaker 8>is not as well. I mean, there is a question

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<v Speaker 8>why didn't the police intervene at that point? But why

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<v Speaker 8>did Sheila do it at all? What is it that

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<v Speaker 8>she's trying to establish here? She's making a public record

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<v Speaker 8>of her lover's slow demise for some reason in her head,

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<v Speaker 8>but we don't know what it is. Anyway, that would

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<v Speaker 8>be the last time that anyone would see Kenny alive.

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<v Speaker 8>On March twenty third, Kenny's mom calls Sheila and tells

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<v Speaker 8>her that she wants Kenny to come home right away,

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<v Speaker 8>and Sheila says, well, sorry, can't do that. Kenny has left.

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<v Speaker 8>He's gone back to Massachusetts. Don't know where he is

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<v Speaker 8>by well. Carolyn Lodge finds this very disconcerting news and

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<v Speaker 8>again reports her son missing. So that same day, same

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<v Speaker 8>two cops go back out to Sheila's house and there's

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<v Speaker 8>a mattress that's burning outside. There's a couple of burn

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<v Speaker 8>piles going and one of the cops looks into one

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<v Speaker 8>of the burn piles and sees what he thinks as

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<v Speaker 8>a human bone, and he figures that's enough to get

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<v Speaker 8>probable cause for a surge warrant, and they tell her

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<v Speaker 8>not to touch anything, and they leave to get the warrant,

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<v Speaker 8>come back several hours later her and sheill is covered

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<v Speaker 8>with ashes and she's crying and she's saying that her

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<v Speaker 8>Kenny is gone, and she plays a tape for the

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<v Speaker 8>policeman of a tape recording she made of a conversation

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<v Speaker 8>with Kenny in which he admits to having raped several children,

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<v Speaker 8>and Kenny can be heard in the background agreeing with her,

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<v Speaker 8>and she's constantly yelling at him and abusing him, and

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<v Speaker 8>toward the end he could be heard vomiting, and she

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<v Speaker 8>tells him to stop faking that he's fainted. She knows

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<v Speaker 8>he hasn't really fainted. But the cops say, well, where

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<v Speaker 8>is he now, and she says, well, I left, he left,

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<v Speaker 8>I'm not sure where he is. And again they bring

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<v Speaker 8>attention hills, attention to the bone in the fire, and

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00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.960
<v Speaker 8>they said well, where did that bone come from? And

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00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.079
<v Speaker 8>she says it either came from a rabbit or a pedophile.

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00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.920
<v Speaker 8>She borts that out and then immediately denies saying it.

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<v Speaker 7>So, how does the police proceed from there?

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<v Speaker 8>I'm sorry, I say it again?

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<v Speaker 7>Well, so how did the police proceed from there?

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00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:12.319
<v Speaker 9>Oh?

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<v Speaker 8>Boy, I can't sure you Dan, I'm so sorry.

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<v Speaker 7>I want to say, how did the police proceed from there?

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<v Speaker 8>Okay? Well, with the search warrant, they go over everything.

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<v Speaker 8>They confiscate, among other things, a wide array of cutting

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00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.039
<v Speaker 8>tools in the house. They find blood in the house.

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00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:37.960
<v Speaker 8>All over the walls of the house are blood. Some

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<v Speaker 8>of it's covered with dust and some of it's fresh,

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00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.359
<v Speaker 8>which would indicate that this is continuing behavior. She's making

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00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:51.640
<v Speaker 8>people bleed over a space of time. Now, the question

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<v Speaker 8>I have is why is she allowed to go free?

401
00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 8>But she is. They're being very careful going to arrest

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00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.559
<v Speaker 8>her until this year. But while the search of the

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00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.640
<v Speaker 8>house and the grounds is going on, she takes off.

404
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.480
<v Speaker 8>She makes arrangements for her animals to be taken care of,

405
00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:17.319
<v Speaker 8>and she's pitch hiking around New England, being picked up

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00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:22.799
<v Speaker 8>by a series of men who all have sex with

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<v Speaker 8>her and take her to where she wants to go,

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<v Speaker 8>which is almost always further away from having New Hampshire.

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<v Speaker 8>It isn't until March thirty first that it warrant is

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<v Speaker 8>issued for her arrest and the manhunt begins. And finally,

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00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.799
<v Speaker 8>her last boyfriend, the last one who picked her up,

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00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.440
<v Speaker 8>sees her picture on the TV set and calls the

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<v Speaker 8>cops and says, I know where she is. She's at

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<v Speaker 8>the shopping mall and she is arrested in Revere, Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 8>And when she stouted you, yeah, what.

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<v Speaker 7>Did she tell that last person about her coming back

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<v Speaker 7>and being an avenger?

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<v Speaker 8>Well, she if she is pretending to be crazy, She

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<v Speaker 8>never ever stops pretending, because she tells her or her

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<v Speaker 8>lovers that she has come back to life after dying

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00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.319
<v Speaker 8>and that she is an avenging angel. You just slept

422
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.559
<v Speaker 8>with an angel, she says to them. And then I'm

423
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.839
<v Speaker 8>here to take care of all the sex offenders of

424
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.720
<v Speaker 8>the world. So if you're a sex offender, watch out,

425
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:31.839
<v Speaker 8>and if you know any sex offenders, let me know

426
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:33.480
<v Speaker 8>and I'll take care of them for you.

427
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 4>Well then when they finally go ahead, well when they

428
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.480
<v Speaker 4>find her, she's got a small quantity of marijuana with

429
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:45.319
<v Speaker 4>her because she likes to smoke before sex.

430
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.960
<v Speaker 8>She's got eighty five thousand dollars in cash and checks

431
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.480
<v Speaker 8>in her possession, and she has cut and dyed her hair.

432
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 8>It looks a lot like flight.

433
00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:56.960
<v Speaker 9>Now.

434
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 8>She's arraigned in Massachusetts on April third and brought back

435
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:06.039
<v Speaker 8>to New Hampshire, which.

436
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:13.240
<v Speaker 7>And how yeah, so she she is escorted back to

437
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.640
<v Speaker 7>New Hampshire, And how does the what happens in terms

438
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.279
<v Speaker 7>of her representation by lawyers or her questioning by police?

439
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.559
<v Speaker 7>What happens in that in that case with the questioning

440
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:26.160
<v Speaker 7>from police.

441
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.880
<v Speaker 8>What happens in the case with the questions of the police.

442
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.599
<v Speaker 7>Yes, what's what happens in terms of the questioning from police?

443
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:39.279
<v Speaker 7>And does she immediately request the lawyer at that time?

444
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.880
<v Speaker 8>Well? She, you know, she she chats with them for

445
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.759
<v Speaker 8>a long time. She she has to bring a bunny

446
00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.119
<v Speaker 8>with her from the farm and she sits in an

447
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.359
<v Speaker 8>interrogation room with a rabbit on her lap. You know.

448
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.720
<v Speaker 8>The rabbit urinates on her and she wipes it up

449
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.759
<v Speaker 8>with a paper towel and then wipes her mouth with

450
00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:00.839
<v Speaker 8>the same paper towels. Very bizarre behavior as far as

451
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.799
<v Speaker 8>her representation goes. Because of all the publicity. She gets

452
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.960
<v Speaker 8>a good lawyer, she gets Brad Bailey out of Boston,

453
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.960
<v Speaker 8>who is going to do his best to convince a

454
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 8>New Hampshire jury that she is insane. And I think

455
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:24.279
<v Speaker 8>that the main question of the book is is Sheila

456
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:31.000
<v Speaker 8>crazy or is she just pathologically statistic? You know, insanity

457
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 8>defenses rarely worked and in insanity defense and defense has

458
00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.400
<v Speaker 8>never worked in New Hampshire, not once. But one of

459
00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:42.559
<v Speaker 8>the things that makes this case compelling is that the

460
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:46.400
<v Speaker 8>insanity defense here has a couple of points going for it.

461
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.640
<v Speaker 8>Shilabaum may have known that her murders were construed as

462
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.359
<v Speaker 8>wrong in the eyes of society and in the eyes

463
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.319
<v Speaker 8>of the law, but there's a serious question if she

464
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:01.839
<v Speaker 8>herself appreciated that her actions were wrong. She those behavior

465
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 8>before and after the murders, before and after her arrest

466
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:09.079
<v Speaker 8>indicate that she had delusions she believed, and those delusions

467
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:13.240
<v Speaker 8>were determining her violence. Where reality starts and where her

468
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:17.279
<v Speaker 8>delusions begin, of course, is a question. But she claims

469
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:20.119
<v Speaker 8>to have been a victim of incest and of pedophiles

470
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:22.599
<v Speaker 8>as a little girl, and her sister backs that up.

471
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.680
<v Speaker 8>Now we know that that as an adult you know

472
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 8>she wasn't a coma, and so it's her claims that

473
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.720
<v Speaker 8>she she was brought back, returning to mortality with a

474
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:42.160
<v Speaker 8>mission is feasible in her own mind. She has every

475
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:44.920
<v Speaker 8>reason to hate pedophiles, she has every reason to hate

476
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:51.960
<v Speaker 8>people who commit incests. And she actually had biblical quotes that,

477
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:54.559
<v Speaker 8>on the surface anyways, seemed to back up her plans,

478
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.079
<v Speaker 8>including a verse from Daniel that noted God's favorite form

479
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:02.759
<v Speaker 8>of capital punishment with in feneration, and that was basically

480
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.440
<v Speaker 8>her defense that she was on a mission from God

481
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.519
<v Speaker 8>when she committed the murders. It sounds like criminal insanity.

482
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.319
<v Speaker 8>The trouble is Sheila blended that delusional mission with her

483
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:17.440
<v Speaker 8>other personality disorders. She was a nimphomaniac, She was a sadist.

484
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.160
<v Speaker 8>She had grand illusions regarding her her delusions regarding her

485
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.799
<v Speaker 8>own sexual appeal. Her sadism was always there, not just

486
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:29.319
<v Speaker 8>during sexual encounters. She was mean every single time she

487
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:32.319
<v Speaker 8>had an opportunity to be mean, and in the long run,

488
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 8>the jury in New Hampshire decided it was means Sheila

489
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.599
<v Speaker 8>who was in charge. You know, she may have believed

490
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.359
<v Speaker 8>her mission was a legitimate excuse to commit the crime

491
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:45.759
<v Speaker 8>she committed, but it was just an excuse. Nonetheless, Sheila

492
00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:47.880
<v Speaker 8>got off on hurting people and in the long run

493
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 8>it might have mattered to her, but it didn't matter

494
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.519
<v Speaker 8>to the jury how much prurience and religious zeal she

495
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:55.480
<v Speaker 8>put into the mix.

496
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.240
<v Speaker 7>Now, in terms of not criminally response because of insanity,

497
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:06.240
<v Speaker 7>the lawyer her defense did raise some issues that when

498
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:11.960
<v Speaker 7>she had the opportunity to conceal her actions often she didn't.

499
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:16.240
<v Speaker 7>The case in point where she offered to play the

500
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:20.559
<v Speaker 7>audio tape for police officers. So you know, I'm in

501
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:24.559
<v Speaker 7>Canada talking about cases here and we have a lot

502
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:28.480
<v Speaker 7>more leeway in terms of insanity and not primarily responsible

503
00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:32.920
<v Speaker 7>in cases. But part of that is that there was

504
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.079
<v Speaker 7>some indication at some point, at different times where she

505
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.599
<v Speaker 7>didn't try to conceal her actions, like the Walmart and

506
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.880
<v Speaker 7>like the audio tape. Did they not make any headway

507
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.400
<v Speaker 7>with that part of the defense. I know it's a

508
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 7>very politically charged case, and especially when you're dealing with torture,

509
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.839
<v Speaker 7>but did they make any headway at all as a

510
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 7>trial by making those points?

511
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:01.799
<v Speaker 8>Absolutely none. I think that the New Hampshire jury sat

512
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:06.279
<v Speaker 8>there with their arms crossed and scowled at her, you know,

513
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.759
<v Speaker 8>waiting for an opportunity to give her the thumbs down,

514
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.400
<v Speaker 8>you know, And I agree with you. I think there

515
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:16.759
<v Speaker 8>is there is. There's strong evidence that Sheila is insanity

516
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:21.640
<v Speaker 8>is real, that she was abused into psychosis as a child,

517
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:27.359
<v Speaker 8>And the strongest evidence comes from her older sister, who

518
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.880
<v Speaker 8>you know, cat the picture of that there's one there's

519
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.799
<v Speaker 8>one description she Lynn Nuge and her older sister testified

520
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.400
<v Speaker 8>at the trial and said that there was She remembered

521
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.720
<v Speaker 8>one time when Sheila and herself were chased into a

522
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:50.759
<v Speaker 8>cornfield by her drunken father. And oddly, I was typing

523
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.799
<v Speaker 8>this one day and my daughter was standing behind me,

524
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 8>reading over my shoulder, and she says, that's from Chrest Gump,

525
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.480
<v Speaker 8>And it was true. It was a scene that Lynn

526
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:05.519
<v Speaker 8>NuGen was describing seemed almost exactly the same as the

527
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.400
<v Speaker 8>scene in Forrest Gump when Jenny is chased by her

528
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:13.279
<v Speaker 8>father into an Alabama cornfield, which of course doesn't mean

529
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.400
<v Speaker 8>that it wasn't just a coincidence or that. And I

530
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.200
<v Speaker 8>like this idea better that the sisters placed a memory

531
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:23.559
<v Speaker 8>from the movie over their real horrifying memory as sort

532
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.400
<v Speaker 8>of a bandage and had come to believe that the

533
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 8>replacement Forrest Gump version was true.

534
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:30.559
<v Speaker 6>Right.

535
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:35.559
<v Speaker 7>What I found interesting was, unlike the Aleen Werno's case

536
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:40.039
<v Speaker 7>where the other infamous woman serial killer, that there really

537
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.960
<v Speaker 7>seemed to be at least a lot more validity to

538
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 7>an insanity defense with the actions and behavior.

539
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:48.480
<v Speaker 8>You know, Dan, I you can hear me better than

540
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:49.160
<v Speaker 8>I can hear you.

541
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.720
<v Speaker 4>Okay, you are a little voice coming out of a

542
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:53.640
<v Speaker 4>lot of static.

543
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.759
<v Speaker 7>Okay, great. Anyway, when I wanted to their second.

544
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:08.960
<v Speaker 8>LTR one phone call, okay, okay, I'll do that. Well.

545
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.079
<v Speaker 7>I apologize for all the noise. I know it's quite

546
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:16.200
<v Speaker 7>hard to plow through this interview with that much noise.

547
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:19.640
<v Speaker 7>I don't hear any noise on my end here with

548
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:23.880
<v Speaker 7>my phone call, so I don't know what that is.

549
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.319
<v Speaker 2>Eminy with a lucky landslots, you can get lucky just

550
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:28.319
<v Speaker 2>about anywhere.

551
00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.920
<v Speaker 1>This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and

552
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:33.839
<v Speaker 1>the weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here

553
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:37.000
<v Speaker 1>a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that.

554
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.400
<v Speaker 1>It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I

555
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:41.839
<v Speaker 1>suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right,

556
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:43.079
<v Speaker 1>and start getting lucky.

557
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you

558
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.519
<v Speaker 2>feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law

559
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:54.279
<v Speaker 2>eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details.

560
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:57.480
<v Speaker 7>Eating from. He may be using a cell phone, which

561
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.839
<v Speaker 7>ends up being very bad. But I have had guess

562
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:05.559
<v Speaker 7>that did use cell phones and the reception was much

563
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:08.719
<v Speaker 7>much better. So well, we'll just hope. He says that

564
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.280
<v Speaker 7>there is a thunderstorm and snowstorm in New York right

565
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.199
<v Speaker 7>now where he's calling from, so I know that could

566
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:22.960
<v Speaker 7>rehavoc on the reception, no doubt. Anyway, you're listening to

567
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.400
<v Speaker 7>Michael Benson, journalist and author of about fifty books he's

568
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.840
<v Speaker 7>either authored or co authored, and we were talking about

569
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:33.519
<v Speaker 7>burn Farm and this is Michael Benson. Were given into

570
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.880
<v Speaker 7>one more shot.

571
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.280
<v Speaker 9>I followed my wife's cell phone, and I could hear

572
00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:40.079
<v Speaker 9>you perfectly.

573
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.159
<v Speaker 7>Oh there we go. Yes, that's much better.

574
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:46.119
<v Speaker 9>Oh, Y's such a strong voice.

575
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.360
<v Speaker 8>There we go.

576
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:48.639
<v Speaker 9>Okay, where we.

577
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:52.760
<v Speaker 7>Were talking about. My question I posed to you, was that,

578
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.199
<v Speaker 7>unlike the alien warners case that I had dealt with

579
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.360
<v Speaker 7>here on with Sue Russell on the program, that there

580
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.960
<v Speaker 7>was the defense really trying to say that this person

581
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:07.599
<v Speaker 7>because of her background, was not criminally responsible for her crimes,

582
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:09.719
<v Speaker 7>and that's why she murdered the men that she did.

583
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.000
<v Speaker 7>In this particular case, there is a lot of evidence,

584
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:17.639
<v Speaker 7>historical evidence to at least consider the not criminally responsible

585
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.199
<v Speaker 7>and the insanity defense in this case. So I found

586
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.440
<v Speaker 7>that very interesting in this case. If there ever was

587
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:28.719
<v Speaker 7>a story that a woman could talk about having some

588
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.719
<v Speaker 7>effect later on in her life, this is one of those. Anyway,

589
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 7>So I thought there was a fair amount of validity.

590
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.559
<v Speaker 9>Absolutely, I agree with you one hundred percent. I think

591
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:43.400
<v Speaker 9>that it's the same thing. It happened in California, or

592
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.599
<v Speaker 9>maybe even in New York State, it might have been different.

593
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.320
<v Speaker 9>But in New Hampshire, if you admit you did it,

594
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.679
<v Speaker 9>and you have to admit you did it to complete insanity,

595
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:56.440
<v Speaker 9>they don't want to see you do anything else other

596
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:57.360
<v Speaker 9>than go to prison.

597
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:03.119
<v Speaker 7>Now, in those tapes that you didn't talk too much,

598
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:05.519
<v Speaker 7>but this audience, it's because it's true murder and the

599
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 7>most shocking killers in true crime history. You could talk

600
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:11.559
<v Speaker 7>about some of the details of those tapes, what the

601
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 7>content of those tapes were. I'm sure that didn't help

602
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 7>with the jury having any sympathy for Sheila Lebar when

603
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:21.719
<v Speaker 7>it came to the trial itself, tell us a little

604
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.920
<v Speaker 7>bit more about the details. What she got these people

605
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:27.280
<v Speaker 7>to say, what she got these men to say on

606
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:27.960
<v Speaker 7>those tapes.

607
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:33.519
<v Speaker 9>Well, you know, it's hard for me to talk about.

608
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:41.119
<v Speaker 9>She is the most sadistic person I've ever encountered in

609
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 9>I can't think of I can't think of a meaner person.

610
00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 9>She was mean every opportunity she had to be mean.

611
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:49.400
<v Speaker 9>You know, I've written the future of crime books and

612
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:52.719
<v Speaker 9>She'll was by far the easiest murderer for me to

613
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.559
<v Speaker 9>write about in a certain sense, because she was an

614
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:57.840
<v Speaker 9>open book. I mean, she did record things. She had

615
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:04.760
<v Speaker 9>videotapes of Michael Delowe's saying that, you know, mom, how

616
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:06.920
<v Speaker 9>could you make me have sex with you when I

617
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.719
<v Speaker 9>was a kid. And those poor mothers had to sit

618
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.480
<v Speaker 9>in the courtroom and listen to these tapes. You know,

619
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.760
<v Speaker 9>a couple of times they would burst into tears and

620
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:17.599
<v Speaker 9>run out it, which just do is a horrible thing.

621
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:23.679
<v Speaker 9>I mean, I've dealt with murderers who refused to confess

622
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:25.800
<v Speaker 9>they were stubborn and you had to guess what was

623
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:27.559
<v Speaker 9>going on through their heads, and that's a little bit

624
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.639
<v Speaker 9>tougher to write about, but certainly not a problem with Sheila.

625
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.719
<v Speaker 9>She spoke most of her thoughts out loud and felt

626
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 9>the need to record them. The tapes were of her

627
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:45.039
<v Speaker 9>torturing her victims. She was beating them until they admitted

628
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:48.960
<v Speaker 9>that they were pedophiles, until they admitted that they had

629
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:55.880
<v Speaker 9>had incestuous relationships with their mothers, and then aha, then

630
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.199
<v Speaker 9>she felt like she was morally justified in killing them.

631
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:03.119
<v Speaker 9>And that's the reason she's making the recording. The recording

632
00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:08.360
<v Speaker 9>is her defense. See, he admits he's a pedophile. I

633
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:11.960
<v Speaker 9>had every right to kill him. Yeah, she let the

634
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:18.639
<v Speaker 9>world hear, you know, and every single moment of it's

635
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:22.599
<v Speaker 9>kind of drenched in her inflamed yet demonized sex drive.

636
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:28.920
<v Speaker 7>The roughed up what was her demeanor at the trial

637
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:33.360
<v Speaker 7>that there was There was some incidents at the trial

638
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.559
<v Speaker 7>as well that was quite unnervous.

639
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.760
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, she did put up a little fuss at one

640
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:43.440
<v Speaker 9>point she had to be hustled out. My favorite shield.

641
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.199
<v Speaker 9>A day at the trial, though, was the day they

642
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.239
<v Speaker 9>had her ex boyfriend Jimmy Brackett and Wayne Ennis and

643
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.159
<v Speaker 9>the other men who had been workers on her farm

644
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:57.800
<v Speaker 9>and either been her lovers or just abused guys who

645
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.440
<v Speaker 9>worked around the place, and for that day she had

646
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:03.719
<v Speaker 9>her hair done up a little bit braided. Usually she

647
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:09.000
<v Speaker 9>had which hair that hung straight down. She was a

648
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:12.440
<v Speaker 9>little bit flirtatious that day, you know, putting on her

649
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.679
<v Speaker 9>chapstick very slowly and making a big show of it.

650
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:20.599
<v Speaker 9>But yeah, she she would if somebody said something she

651
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.840
<v Speaker 9>didn't like on the on the witness stand, she would

652
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:24.360
<v Speaker 9>talk back.

653
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:31.639
<v Speaker 7>Well. And you say, both families of the Deluge and

654
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:37.360
<v Speaker 7>and H Kenneth County's family both attended to those the

655
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.079
<v Speaker 7>full trials.

656
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 9>They sat together, they held hands for part of it,

657
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 9>the two moms for moral support. Yeah. At one point,

658
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.360
<v Speaker 9>Michael Delosie's mom had to take the stand and she

659
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:53.920
<v Speaker 9>was asked, you know, did you have do you have

660
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Speaker 9>sex with Mike when he was a kid? You know,

661
00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:59.719
<v Speaker 9>she shakes her head. No, one bursts into tears, you know,

662
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:04.559
<v Speaker 9>at all. The transcript has her not giving a response,

663
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:08.480
<v Speaker 9>but you know, she clearly says no. And then later

664
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:10.599
<v Speaker 9>on she told reporters it was the hardest thing she

665
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:12.039
<v Speaker 9>had ever she ever had to do in her life,

666
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:18.400
<v Speaker 9>was to get up there and you know face that woman. Yeah,

667
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 9>now I don't know that Carolyn Lodge, who's Kenneth County's mom.

668
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:29.119
<v Speaker 9>She sued the police who had come out to Shiela's

669
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.719
<v Speaker 9>farm to give the UH to check to see there

670
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.719
<v Speaker 9>was a well being check on Kenny.

671
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.159
<v Speaker 8>All right now.

672
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:41.760
<v Speaker 9>She she sued the Epping Police Department a charging breach

673
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:45.840
<v Speaker 9>of duty causing Kenny harm they contributed to his death.

674
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:49.440
<v Speaker 9>She believed that she had done everything to protect her son,

675
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.599
<v Speaker 9>but the cops had not, and she made some strong points.

676
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 9>The police knew all about Sheila. They knew she abused men.

677
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:58.639
<v Speaker 9>You know, Jimmy Brackett lost his teeth, Michael Deluge was

678
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.880
<v Speaker 9>seen bleeding walking down the road. I think police had

679
00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:03.599
<v Speaker 9>a rule that no copper, They're going to be alone

680
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 9>with her, so, you know, Sheila being Sheila was a

681
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:14.159
<v Speaker 9>saying that they had multiple opportunities to save Kenny, both

682
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:16.679
<v Speaker 9>when they went out to the farm the first time

683
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:22.599
<v Speaker 9>and during the second Walmart incident. And I think that

684
00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:27.840
<v Speaker 9>the best way to illustrate Carolyn Lodge's point is imagine

685
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:32.119
<v Speaker 9>if the genders had been reversed. Imagine if Sila Lebar

686
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.119
<v Speaker 9>was a forty five year old man who had a

687
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:38.480
<v Speaker 9>twenty one year old woman in a wheelchair all beaten

688
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:42.480
<v Speaker 9>up walking around Walmart acting crazy. I think the cops

689
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:48.440
<v Speaker 9>would have had those two separated immediately because she was

690
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:53.079
<v Speaker 9>a woman and the victim is a man who doesn't

691
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:56.880
<v Speaker 9>even go he had all of his self will beaten

692
00:41:56.920 --> 00:41:59.519
<v Speaker 9>on of him, is afraid to say she's hurting me

693
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:04.440
<v Speaker 9>because we'll just hit them again, and nothing happened. So,

694
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.000
<v Speaker 9>you know, she just didn't know how those cops could

695
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:09.800
<v Speaker 9>sleep at night, how they could look at themselves in

696
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:12.480
<v Speaker 9>the mirror. The civil suit lingered in the courts for

697
00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:15.960
<v Speaker 9>a while and it was eventually thrown out. The cops,

698
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.119
<v Speaker 9>the courts said, didn't have probable cause to put Kenny

699
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.440
<v Speaker 9>in protective customer, and that.

700
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 8>Was there.

701
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:27.320
<v Speaker 7>Right now. This is not a capital case. You don't

702
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:31.039
<v Speaker 7>have the death penalty in New Hampshire. So the eventual

703
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:33.760
<v Speaker 7>the eventual sentence was.

704
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.679
<v Speaker 9>What, well, it's life in prison.

705
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.679
<v Speaker 7>So two it's so two consecutive sentences for life imprisonment

706
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 7>for the two murders that she did.

707
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.960
<v Speaker 9>Oh yeah, it's at least two right. There's because when

708
00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 9>they went through the burn pile, they found bones from

709
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:59.159
<v Speaker 9>Michael Deloge, bones from Kenneth County, and a towbone belonged

710
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:03.280
<v Speaker 9>to a third person who was neither of them. And

711
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:07.239
<v Speaker 9>we have no idea who it is somebody nobody who

712
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:11.360
<v Speaker 9>she picked up, took there and killed and never, you know,

713
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:13.440
<v Speaker 9>never was a blip on anybody's radar.

714
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.719
<v Speaker 7>Now was there a if I'm not correct? Was there

715
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.039
<v Speaker 7>other evidence of other burn pits as well? Is there

716
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.360
<v Speaker 7>other possibilities that other men were burnt in different pits

717
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:29.679
<v Speaker 7>at different times? Uh? And and those bones could have

718
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:33.199
<v Speaker 7>been disposed of and not found in the extensive search

719
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 7>that was under that did was undergone on the property

720
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:37.920
<v Speaker 7>as it was that that.

721
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:40.880
<v Speaker 9>Is absolutely a possibility, although there's no way to tell

722
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:45.559
<v Speaker 9>for sure if if there were more victims, she managed

723
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.960
<v Speaker 9>to get rid of the evidence somehow. But yeah, there

724
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.599
<v Speaker 9>were there were There were burned spots all over the property.

725
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:55.039
<v Speaker 9>But it's not uncommon. It's just that's the way it

726
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.679
<v Speaker 9>is in rural New Hampshire. You take the garbage out

727
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.440
<v Speaker 9>in the backfield and you burn it in the in

728
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:01.400
<v Speaker 9>the burnal right?

729
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.880
<v Speaker 7>Was she questioned about other potential murders and what was

730
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:08.280
<v Speaker 7>her response to that line of questioning?

731
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:13.840
<v Speaker 9>I don't believe she wasn't. In order to do that,

732
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.079
<v Speaker 9>they would have to be a missing person. And there

733
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:21.599
<v Speaker 9>was never anyone connected to her that they couldn't find.

734
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:26.519
<v Speaker 9>I see, you know, I mean if there was you know, Johnny,

735
00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:29.119
<v Speaker 9>for example, and Johnny was there for six months and

736
00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:32.800
<v Speaker 9>then supposedly moved on, but nobody could find Johnny, then

737
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.239
<v Speaker 9>they could question her about him. But whoever, whoever that

738
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:42.199
<v Speaker 9>third victim was, or if there were others, they never

739
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:43.880
<v Speaker 9>they were never noticed by anyone.

740
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:48.840
<v Speaker 7>Now what did Jimmy Brackett and Wayne Innes bring to

741
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.079
<v Speaker 7>the testimony? What did they say that was very valuable

742
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 7>in the conviction of Sheila lebar.

743
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:59.920
<v Speaker 9>Well they and this is true of all the prosecution.

744
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.519
<v Speaker 9>What witnesses they testified as to her? How functional she was?

745
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:07.119
<v Speaker 9>You know, how could she be criminally saying if she

746
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:10.320
<v Speaker 9>could run a farm by herself? Uh, you know, I

747
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:13.840
<v Speaker 9>think the point was she was just a mean, nasty woman,

748
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.800
<v Speaker 9>not crazy at all. And and it's true she had

749
00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 9>never sought help for a for a mental problem. Nobody

750
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.880
<v Speaker 9>had ever tried to commit her. Nobody had ever as

751
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.159
<v Speaker 9>much as suggested that she see a psychiatrist. She was

752
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:31.519
<v Speaker 9>an eccentric woman who lived at the end of a

753
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:35.920
<v Speaker 9>dirt road, and nobody even thought about those things. But dude,

754
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:41.679
<v Speaker 9>Wayne and Jimmy as Sheila flirted with them a little

755
00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:45.039
<v Speaker 9>bit from the from the defense table, were very very

756
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.719
<v Speaker 9>strong and saying that she's just a mean woman. And

757
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:51.800
<v Speaker 9>I'm pretty glad that I got out of there. And

758
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:54.119
<v Speaker 9>one of them, I forget which one has a vanity

759
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 9>license played on his car that says I'm alive.

760
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:58.119
<v Speaker 7>I'm alive.

761
00:45:59.480 --> 00:45:59.760
<v Speaker 9>Barely.

762
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.559
<v Speaker 7>Yeah. What we haven't talked about is is Sheila to

763
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:06.880
<v Speaker 7>do all of this had to have a fair amount

764
00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:12.079
<v Speaker 7>of charisma. She was a dominant, sexually dominant and had

765
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.599
<v Speaker 7>that power of these women. These men, now I thought

766
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.960
<v Speaker 7>interesting was what did you know the considerable age difference

767
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 7>between Sheila and doctor lebar Bill lebar So. But also

768
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:30.920
<v Speaker 7>at the same time, she was as from the photos itself,

769
00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Speaker 7>she was a good looking woman. I mean in the

770
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:35.599
<v Speaker 7>end when when she went to trial, when she's forty

771
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Speaker 7>seven forty eight years old, she had gained considerable weight,

772
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.639
<v Speaker 7>and you know, maybe makeovers aren't quite so available in

773
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:46.840
<v Speaker 7>jail once you're behind bars, but as a young woman,

774
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:49.199
<v Speaker 7>maybe you can describe what she did look like, and

775
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.920
<v Speaker 7>well she eached their own I.

776
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.079
<v Speaker 9>Mean right up until the day she was arrested. She

777
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:59.519
<v Speaker 9>still had no trouble picking up men standing on the

778
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:02.159
<v Speaker 9>side of ther with her thumb out, and guys were

779
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:06.280
<v Speaker 9>stopping and taking her to the motel. So she certainly

780
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:10.440
<v Speaker 9>had Yeah, that's jennas Quah. But she was. She was

781
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:14.639
<v Speaker 9>a loud and voluptuous woman. She had a lot of

782
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 9>these and those going for her. And you're right, I

783
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:19.039
<v Speaker 9>mean she did. She put get heavy at the end

784
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:23.320
<v Speaker 9>of her life. But you know, in the farmhouse she

785
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:25.320
<v Speaker 9>had a picture of herself naked on the wall, quite

786
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:28.159
<v Speaker 9>proud of herself, how she appeared in the all together,

787
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:31.519
<v Speaker 9>she found a great power in her body.

788
00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:37.199
<v Speaker 7>Now, in this trial itself or after this trial? What

789
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.719
<v Speaker 7>what was uh Sheila le bar any statements to the

790
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.599
<v Speaker 7>media after this the conclusions? What was her what's what

791
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:48.079
<v Speaker 7>was her state after the trial? That it was there

792
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:52.559
<v Speaker 7>a sort of a recession of her odd behavior or

793
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.480
<v Speaker 7>was it a continuum of that same theme that she

794
00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:59.679
<v Speaker 7>was an avenger? And what was really her cognizant of

795
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.760
<v Speaker 7>her realization of what had happened during that trial, and

796
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:05.400
<v Speaker 7>was there a demeanor any different from the beginning to

797
00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:05.800
<v Speaker 7>the end.

798
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:09.039
<v Speaker 9>She went into a kind of denial, and I think

799
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.280
<v Speaker 9>a kind of denial maybe the states she was always

800
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:18.440
<v Speaker 9>in but from what I heard, she made the transition

801
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:23.519
<v Speaker 9>almost overnight into the mother hen of the female prison.

802
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.639
<v Speaker 9>And she seemed very happy in that role because she

803
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.039
<v Speaker 9>was the older, wiser one, and a lot of the

804
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:34.000
<v Speaker 9>other women in the prison were younger and appropriate age

805
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.480
<v Speaker 9>to be her daughters, and she would teach them life

806
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:42.400
<v Speaker 9>lessons and things like this, and seems to you know,

807
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:47.480
<v Speaker 9>redefine herself in that way. And maybe in a world

808
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:51.480
<v Speaker 9>where there aren't that many men, she found a little

809
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:52.199
<v Speaker 9>bit of peace.

810
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:53.920
<v Speaker 8>Right.

811
00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:59.639
<v Speaker 7>How was she How did she react to the same

812
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:04.519
<v Speaker 7>or infamy from having your book published and another book published,

813
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:09.480
<v Speaker 7>and the story being quite sensational and high profile. What

814
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.199
<v Speaker 7>was her reaction to that kind of attention?

815
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.559
<v Speaker 9>No, I can't. I can't give you an answer that

816
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:19.840
<v Speaker 9>I don't know, But I would be shocked if she

817
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:25.280
<v Speaker 9>wasn't outwardly annoyed and inwardly pleased I see, because I

818
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.679
<v Speaker 9>think that she would be very very mouthy about all

819
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.599
<v Speaker 9>the mistakes I made about her. But at the same time,

820
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 9>she liked attention, and she certainly got her share of

821
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:39.519
<v Speaker 9>it there for a while.

822
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:44.599
<v Speaker 7>What was her reaction when she finally was sentenced to

823
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 7>the life sentences itself. What was her demeanor? What did

824
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:50.679
<v Speaker 7>she do or not do well?

825
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:52.039
<v Speaker 8>You know she.

826
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.760
<v Speaker 9>I think that she showed more. She showed more emotion

827
00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:02.519
<v Speaker 9>on the first day the trial when the jury was

828
00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:04.719
<v Speaker 9>taken out to look at the farm and the farmhouse

829
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.440
<v Speaker 9>and where everything happened, and she knew she was probably

830
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:09.840
<v Speaker 9>getting her last look at the house in the land

831
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.480
<v Speaker 9>than she was when the jury, you know, sent her

832
00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:17.719
<v Speaker 9>away to prison. She wasn't, you know, her choice was

833
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:19.840
<v Speaker 9>a mental hospital or a prison. She wasn't going to

834
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:24.039
<v Speaker 9>go free anyway. I think we'll defendants who think they're

835
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.159
<v Speaker 9>about to be let free and find out that they're

836
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:27.679
<v Speaker 9>going to spend the rest of their life in prison.

837
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.760
<v Speaker 9>They break down. But it's not going to be the

838
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:33.280
<v Speaker 9>mental hospital. It's going to be the lady's prison. I

839
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:35.239
<v Speaker 9>think she alls said, Okay, we'll make it work.

840
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.960
<v Speaker 7>Why did the jury travel to the farm and then

841
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:46.199
<v Speaker 7>the walmart? What was the the judge's idea in having

842
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:48.079
<v Speaker 7>them travel to those two destinations.

843
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.800
<v Speaker 9>I think that in the long run, it saved a

844
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:56.400
<v Speaker 9>lot of time and taxpayer money because they had a

845
00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:59.920
<v Speaker 9>three dimensional idea of where everything was in the state

846
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.599
<v Speaker 9>with one another, and it cut down on the number

847
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:07.400
<v Speaker 9>of exhibits that need to be introduced and that sort

848
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:11.119
<v Speaker 9>of thing. Witnesses testifying as to how the house was

849
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:12.119
<v Speaker 9>laid out and things.

850
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 7>Like that, and how what was the demeanor of we

851
00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:18.559
<v Speaker 7>just spoke about it, but what was how was what

852
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:21.320
<v Speaker 7>was she Little Bar's reaction to going on this one

853
00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:22.559
<v Speaker 7>one more visit?

854
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:28.199
<v Speaker 9>Very wistful. She she could have been her face first

855
00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:31.719
<v Speaker 9>day out of drama school. She was putting out her

856
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 9>emotions were on her sleeve for the jury to see,

857
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.079
<v Speaker 9>and she was she was very sad, looking out over

858
00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:41.599
<v Speaker 9>with a little piece of paradise that she once reigned over.

859
00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:44.519
<v Speaker 9>At the same time, she's wearing a belt around her

860
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:48.280
<v Speaker 9>waist and she makes one false move, somebody hits a

861
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.519
<v Speaker 9>button and she, you know, gets zapped into oblivion and falls.

862
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:55.239
<v Speaker 7>To the ground right now. What I thought interesting too,

863
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:58.639
<v Speaker 7>is that there was actually a few people that really

864
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:01.679
<v Speaker 7>really wanted to be on the on the jury, and

865
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:03.760
<v Speaker 7>it was people that were very interested in that. I

866
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.800
<v Speaker 7>found that quite odd that, you know, a lot of

867
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:08.800
<v Speaker 7>people want to avoid a jury like the plague, but

868
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:11.400
<v Speaker 7>there was actually, if I'm not correct, there was people

869
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:13.760
<v Speaker 7>that actually were very interested in being on that jury.

870
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:17.079
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, yeah, well it's it was the thing that was happening.

871
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:21.280
<v Speaker 9>You know, I suspect and you know who knows. I'm

872
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:26.559
<v Speaker 9>not I'm not from New Hampshire obviously, but I think

873
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:29.079
<v Speaker 9>there it was the thing that was going on. There

874
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:34.199
<v Speaker 9>was a there was a certain maybe even some esteem

875
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:36.440
<v Speaker 9>that came with being on the jury that put her away.

876
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 8>I know.

877
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:43.840
<v Speaker 9>Then, out of all the books I've written, this was

878
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:49.800
<v Speaker 9>the one that was most colored by localism. Localism, by

879
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:55.119
<v Speaker 9>my understanding, is is people in small towns that are

880
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:00.960
<v Speaker 9>away from civilization tend to distrust outsiders more than maybe

881
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.920
<v Speaker 9>some others of us. It's got sort of a mini

882
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:07.239
<v Speaker 9>form of xenophobia right in this house. Then, you know,

883
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:12.800
<v Speaker 9>this really takes place in the boondocks. And they say

884
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 9>that people who live too far from the beaten path

885
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:18.320
<v Speaker 9>are often served by that seclusion occasionally because they have

886
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 9>nasty habits they need to hide, and they're starting like

887
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:26.639
<v Speaker 9>true in Shielda's case, now, even though the dirt road

888
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:29.480
<v Speaker 9>that traveled past her house was technically a public road,

889
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.480
<v Speaker 9>she would Greek drivers or hikers with a shotgun. You know,

890
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:35.280
<v Speaker 9>what are you coming down here for?

891
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:36.440
<v Speaker 6>Right?

892
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:39.320
<v Speaker 9>And uh, you know, and that might have been extreme,

893
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:42.280
<v Speaker 9>but it wasn't a typical of people in that area.

894
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:48.480
<v Speaker 9>When after Sheil was arrested, Kenneth County's mom wanted to

895
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:50.679
<v Speaker 9>go down to see the house where he died. She

896
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:54.280
<v Speaker 9>gets stopped by a neighbor lady, you know, you know,

897
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:56.199
<v Speaker 9>bonning me. Roth comes out and says, what are you doing?

898
00:53:56.360 --> 00:53:59.320
<v Speaker 9>Are you going down my road? And of course they

899
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.679
<v Speaker 9>later on became best friends once once Carolyn explained.

900
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:04.719
<v Speaker 8>Who she was. But it's.

901
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.360
<v Speaker 9>It's a suspicious kind of area, one that I've learned

902
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:09.960
<v Speaker 9>the hard way.

903
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:10.320
<v Speaker 7>You know.

904
00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:15.199
<v Speaker 9>I ended up going to UH to New Hampshire less

905
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:18.760
<v Speaker 9>often than I had planned because at a little incident

906
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.639
<v Speaker 9>at Shield's house with the local police.

907
00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:23.199
<v Speaker 7>Well what happened? Tell us about that?

908
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:29.960
<v Speaker 9>Well, uh, I went to UH. Well, first of all,

909
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:32.480
<v Speaker 9>I had difficulty. I was going to inform the local

910
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.639
<v Speaker 9>police that I was on my way to photograph the

911
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:39.039
<v Speaker 9>house and take a look at it. But I had

912
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:41.159
<v Speaker 9>the wrong address for the Epic Police department. So this

913
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.199
<v Speaker 9>is my fault that I go to the old Epic

914
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:47.119
<v Speaker 9>Police department which is locked up. I said, well, I'll

915
00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:49.119
<v Speaker 9>just go down there. It'll take five minutes, I'll be in,

916
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.800
<v Speaker 9>i'll be out and take my pictures. Nobody will care, so.

917
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:55.239
<v Speaker 8>They cared.

918
00:54:55.440 --> 00:55:00.320
<v Speaker 9>So yeah, so that a neighbor calls because there's a

919
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:03.440
<v Speaker 9>car going down the road. And what I didn't know

920
00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:07.519
<v Speaker 9>was that the night before I got there, someone had

921
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:13.000
<v Speaker 9>stolen doctor Lebar's horse carriage out of his barn. And

922
00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:15.880
<v Speaker 9>they said, well that's it. Next person who goes down there,

923
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:20.559
<v Speaker 9>we're going to arrest. So I go down there. I'm

924
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:26.079
<v Speaker 9>poking around taking pictures and cop car pulls up and

925
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:27.840
<v Speaker 9>cop gets out and says.

926
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:28.039
<v Speaker 8>Come here.

927
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:30.360
<v Speaker 9>I go over. I read the name and says it's

928
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:33.599
<v Speaker 9>you know, read his name and I said, I know you.

929
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:35.400
<v Speaker 9>You're in my book. You're one of the heroes of

930
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:38.079
<v Speaker 9>my book. And he says, well, your opinion of me

931
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:41.840
<v Speaker 9>is about to change because you're under a And they

932
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:46.000
<v Speaker 9>put the handcuffs down behind the back buscreen into the

933
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.000
<v Speaker 9>back of the car, and a mosquito landed right on

934
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:50.599
<v Speaker 9>my nose. But I couldn't get rid of it because

935
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:56.400
<v Speaker 9>that was handcuffed. So I had the blues. I said, look,

936
00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:59.000
<v Speaker 9>you know, I'm not a teenager drinking down here by

937
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:01.679
<v Speaker 9>the Haunted House. They had problems down there with vandalism,

938
00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:06.199
<v Speaker 9>you know, and they're having seances, but they were looking

939
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:08.599
<v Speaker 9>for somebody who was stealing carriages, and that was the

940
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 9>first guy to come along after that. Uh, charges against

941
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:13.679
<v Speaker 9>me were eventually dropped and I got to keep the

942
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:16.840
<v Speaker 9>photos I took there. In the book, there's the pictures

943
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:20.400
<v Speaker 9>of the even the little out buildings behind the big

944
00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:23.480
<v Speaker 9>house where Sheila used to put her heard lovers when

945
00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:25.800
<v Speaker 9>they were bad, like little prison cells.

946
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:33.599
<v Speaker 7>So a little more intimate, intimate, intimate interaction in the story.

947
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:36.400
<v Speaker 9>Well, but being a pro, even even while I was

948
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 9>handcuffed to a bench and being fingerprinted and booked, I

949
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:43.800
<v Speaker 9>managed to get into an interview, so I got some quote.

950
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.920
<v Speaker 9>I get some quotes out of the place because it

951
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:48.519
<v Speaker 9>was the same two cops that had been to Shield's house.

952
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:50.519
<v Speaker 9>So these are the two guys that go down that road.

953
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:52.119
<v Speaker 7>Oh that's incredible.

954
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:55.000
<v Speaker 9>Yeah yeah, but that's the only time anything like that,

955
00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:57.719
<v Speaker 9>even remotely like that, has happened to me. Most most

956
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.599
<v Speaker 9>police officers realize I write law and order book. Bad

957
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:02.440
<v Speaker 9>guy always gets his in the end, and the cops

958
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:03.400
<v Speaker 9>are always the good guys.

959
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:09.039
<v Speaker 7>Who did you go to when normally people are these

960
00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:11.800
<v Speaker 7>days are co authoring with police so they can have

961
00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:16.000
<v Speaker 7>the incredible behind the scenes access. Who was most cooperative

962
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.400
<v Speaker 7>in when you were dealing with people to be able

963
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:20.199
<v Speaker 7>to write this book.

964
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.480
<v Speaker 9>Well, you know what I did because of the extreme localism.

965
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:30.519
<v Speaker 9>I found surrogates, and I found two ladies, one of

966
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.760
<v Speaker 9>whom was a former journalist, had been nominated once for

967
00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 9>a Pulitzer Prize, and I had them do my legwork.

968
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:38.920
<v Speaker 9>They were my eyes and ears for the last part

969
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:43.079
<v Speaker 9>of the research. And if The Burn Farm is a

970
00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:46.119
<v Speaker 9>good book, and I think it is, you know, certainly, yes,

971
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:51.760
<v Speaker 9>Suzanne Danforth deserves a lot of the credit because she

972
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:54.199
<v Speaker 9>could go places I wasn't going to be allowed to

973
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:56.280
<v Speaker 9>go because that was Suzanne and she lived down the

974
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.320
<v Speaker 9>street right right.

975
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.559
<v Speaker 7>Yeah. I found that interesting. It's your kind of your

976
00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:06.800
<v Speaker 7>CAPODI moment there where you needed or at least had

977
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:09.079
<v Speaker 7>a great advantage by having somebody that could deal with

978
00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:12.519
<v Speaker 7>the locals, because again that case was so that's.

979
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:14.440
<v Speaker 9>An advantage of having my agent being a local.

980
00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:15.079
<v Speaker 8>You know.

981
00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:16.840
<v Speaker 9>I said, look, I'm not gonna be able to go

982
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:18.559
<v Speaker 9>back there. They're going to throw me in jail if

983
00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:21.320
<v Speaker 9>I go back. He said, well, here's here's a couple

984
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:22.880
<v Speaker 9>of people to call and I'll be able to help.

985
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.440
<v Speaker 7>You right now in terms of you said you've for

986
00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:30.280
<v Speaker 7>our audience that may not know you have authored or

987
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:33.320
<v Speaker 7>co authored fifty books in your career, in your writing career.

988
00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:36.719
<v Speaker 9>Is that true crime is just my most recent career.

989
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:40.199
<v Speaker 9>I was a sports writer for a while. For a while,

990
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:45.199
<v Speaker 9>I was one of the expert in JFK's assassination. I

991
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:48.519
<v Speaker 9>was a baseball historian for a time. This is just

992
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:51.639
<v Speaker 9>my This is the wayst hat I'm wearing is true,

993
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:56.880
<v Speaker 9>and it comes from incident when I was nine. I've

994
00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:00.239
<v Speaker 9>been obsessed with psycho killers since I was a kid

995
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:02.719
<v Speaker 9>because my next door neighbor, a fourteen year old girl,

996
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:06.760
<v Speaker 9>was killed when I was nine years old. Wow and

997
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:11.159
<v Speaker 9>kay yeah k. She disappeared from a swimming hole on

998
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:13.400
<v Speaker 9>one side of my house and was found by rowa

999
00:59:13.519 --> 00:59:14.840
<v Speaker 9>tracks on the other side of my house. So I

1000
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:16.880
<v Speaker 9>grew up sort of knowing that the boogeyman had crossed

1001
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:22.519
<v Speaker 9>my backfield. And I grew the other kid too. No, no,

1002
00:59:23.239 --> 00:59:26.480
<v Speaker 9>but I think I made some well in a sense.

1003
00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:29.239
<v Speaker 9>I think they did, because he later became a serial

1004
00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:32.239
<v Speaker 9>killer that was put away for other crimes I did.

1005
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.880
<v Speaker 9>I did some work on it and tried to sell

1006
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:37.639
<v Speaker 9>a book about the idea, but they don't like doing

1007
00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:42.760
<v Speaker 9>open cases. But anyway, with the first, uh, first fallible

1008
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:45.800
<v Speaker 9>true crime case came along, which was Betrayal and Blood,

1009
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:48.719
<v Speaker 9>I didn't have to reintroduce myself. In fact, I got

1010
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:50.599
<v Speaker 9>a call from one of the editors and said, I

1011
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.159
<v Speaker 9>think I got a case. It's perfect for you.

1012
00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:55.960
<v Speaker 7>So how many two crime books have you written so far?

1013
00:59:56.039 --> 01:00:00.239
<v Speaker 9>Michael, I think it's eight, uh and less less all.

1014
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:03.320
<v Speaker 9>I covered the Pettit trial in new Haven, Connecticut for

1015
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:06.199
<v Speaker 9>the New York Post. It's a case where the doctor

1016
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.159
<v Speaker 9>lost his family to the home invasion. Yeah.

1017
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:14.039
<v Speaker 7>That's a very high profile case too. Yeah, yeah, so

1018
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:17.440
<v Speaker 7>eight and uh. Your latest is with Kensington as well.

1019
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:22.719
<v Speaker 9>My latest is with Kensington. It's called Mommy Deadliest and

1020
01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:27.639
<v Speaker 9>that's the story about Stacey Castor in uh suburbs outside Syracuse,

1021
01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:32.559
<v Speaker 9>New York, who murdered two husbands and when the cops

1022
01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:37.599
<v Speaker 9>started to get close to her, she poisoned her daughter

1023
01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:39.920
<v Speaker 9>and put a suicide note on the bed saying I

1024
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:43.440
<v Speaker 9>killed daddy, So she tried to kill her daughter to

1025
01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:47.039
<v Speaker 9>save her own skin. The daughter, you know, God bless her,

1026
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.840
<v Speaker 9>did not die. Said I didn't write the suicide note,

1027
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:54.599
<v Speaker 9>and that's how Stacey Caster got hers. Wow, they we're

1028
01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:55.599
<v Speaker 9>talking about that another time.

1029
01:00:57.800 --> 01:00:57.960
<v Speaker 8>Yeah.

1030
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.880
<v Speaker 9>The only, the only PAM I ever got for The

1031
01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:04.800
<v Speaker 9>Burned Farm was one woman who said, it's the most horrible,

1032
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:08.559
<v Speaker 9>disgusting book I've ever read because it's so dirty. It's

1033
01:01:08.639 --> 01:01:12.320
<v Speaker 9>dirty from cover to cover. And I suspected they probably

1034
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:14.639
<v Speaker 9>sold more copies than some of the raiders.

1035
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:19.400
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, yeah, I laugh at that, But that's yeah, what's

1036
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.000
<v Speaker 7>that would feel to a bunch of people.

1037
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.480
<v Speaker 9>It's It's true, it is silty from cover to cover,

1038
01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:26.599
<v Speaker 9>but I don't think it's erotic. I mean, it has

1039
01:01:26.639 --> 01:01:29.119
<v Speaker 9>a certain sternem appeal for some people, I suppose, but

1040
01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:32.840
<v Speaker 9>sado maschism depends on the premise that bullies are sexy,

1041
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:34.840
<v Speaker 9>and that just doesn't fit at all with my way

1042
01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:38.239
<v Speaker 9>of thinking. But it does. Yeah, you're dirty laundry in it.

1043
01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:42.159
<v Speaker 7>Well, certainly. I mean the torture is never I mean,

1044
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 7>there's no nice torture. There's no way of describing torture

1045
01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:51.719
<v Speaker 7>to uh, you know, to to not hurt some people's sensibilities,

1046
01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:54.760
<v Speaker 7>I guess, or offend some people certain sensibilities. But those

1047
01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:57.679
<v Speaker 7>are the people that might not pick up this through

1048
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.079
<v Speaker 7>crime book, you know, and maybe go to a story

1049
01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:03.119
<v Speaker 7>that's a little bit lighter and it's in it's Uh.

1050
01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.559
<v Speaker 9>Did you read the other book about Shila Labar? No?

1051
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:07.239
<v Speaker 7>I didn't know.

1052
01:02:07.599 --> 01:02:10.320
<v Speaker 9>Oh, yeah, we neither. I understand there's a lot more

1053
01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:13.239
<v Speaker 9>a lot more in it about Sheila's I'll Bring You

1054
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:16.800
<v Speaker 9>in Alabama, but a lot less about the details of

1055
01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:21.920
<v Speaker 9>what made her tick. Yeah, I left all the words in.

1056
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:27.039
<v Speaker 7>Well, I don't know. Once you've read this book, I

1057
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:29.679
<v Speaker 7>don't there's not much desire, I think to go read

1058
01:02:29.719 --> 01:02:32.239
<v Speaker 7>another book about this. It seems to be the definitive

1059
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:32.960
<v Speaker 7>story about that.

1060
01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:33.599
<v Speaker 8>You know.

1061
01:02:33.639 --> 01:02:37.119
<v Speaker 7>I hate to say that about another author, But at

1062
01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:40.079
<v Speaker 7>the same time, I think that this was a great read,

1063
01:02:40.199 --> 01:02:44.719
<v Speaker 7>and you really really get the reader involved in the

1064
01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:47.320
<v Speaker 7>horror of the whole thing. I mean, it's incredible the

1065
01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:50.519
<v Speaker 7>we've saved a lot for the audience. We certainly didn't

1066
01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:54.559
<v Speaker 7>go into your details. But I think people have an

1067
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:58.400
<v Speaker 7>imagination about what this woman was capable of, and I

1068
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:00.360
<v Speaker 7>think you certainly expressed that in the of You. So

1069
01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:03.880
<v Speaker 7>I think people will be anxious to go get this

1070
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:05.440
<v Speaker 7>book and read for themselves.

1071
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:09.400
<v Speaker 9>It's uh, I help near you Amazon dot Com all

1072
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:09.599
<v Speaker 9>of that.

1073
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:11.199
<v Speaker 7>Absolutely.

1074
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:14.559
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, I think it's available electronically too. Now I'm not

1075
01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:17.559
<v Speaker 9>sure it might be available for Kindle now, well, I

1076
01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:17.920
<v Speaker 9>hope so.

1077
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:20.800
<v Speaker 7>I hope so because I just read some stats on

1078
01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:24.800
<v Speaker 7>ebooks taking over hardcover books and mass paperback in the

1079
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:28.000
<v Speaker 7>last years. So I went to it's moving faster than

1080
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:28.440
<v Speaker 7>I thought.

1081
01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:33.119
<v Speaker 9>So, you know, I I remember talking to my agent

1082
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:36.440
<v Speaker 9>about five years ago saying, what does this mean electronic versions?

1083
01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:40.519
<v Speaker 9>He says, you'll know someday, you'll know some at least

1084
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:42.760
<v Speaker 9>I get my royalties no matter what. For manager.

1085
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:46.039
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, that's absolutely. I think it's all good for the

1086
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.920
<v Speaker 7>writer because I think that the the the paperback and

1087
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 7>the hardcover. Maybe the hardcover will disappear to a great

1088
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:56.679
<v Speaker 7>degree except for collectors, but the book, the actual physical book,

1089
01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.159
<v Speaker 7>I don't think will disappear. I think the e book

1090
01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:04.000
<v Speaker 7>will bring in the young reader who is you know,

1091
01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:07.159
<v Speaker 7>comfortable with that with the e reader, and a lot

1092
01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:10.039
<v Speaker 7>of people that are going to get on and you know,

1093
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:13.159
<v Speaker 7>get the technology because it is a trend. I don't

1094
01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:15.000
<v Speaker 7>think it can hurt the book. The book has been

1095
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:18.440
<v Speaker 7>around a long time, and I think that because of

1096
01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:21.599
<v Speaker 7>great writing and great stories. I think it's just going

1097
01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:24.599
<v Speaker 7>to expand, and I think these formats may alter the

1098
01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:28.440
<v Speaker 7>way books are sold, but I still think that the

1099
01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:30.760
<v Speaker 7>book itself is in great shape still so.

1100
01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:32.920
<v Speaker 9>And I love books.

1101
01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:34.599
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, me too.

1102
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.760
<v Speaker 9>I really wish I had switched phones earlier in the interview.

1103
01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:43.280
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, well, we'll have to have you back on, Michael,

1104
01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:46.480
<v Speaker 7>because you're a great guest, and obviously you've got a

1105
01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:49.280
<v Speaker 7>truckload of books that we could talk about. Sometimes I

1106
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.760
<v Speaker 7>veer off a little bit of the talk about serial

1107
01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:56.000
<v Speaker 7>killers and talk about other true crime stories are very,

1108
01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.159
<v Speaker 7>very fascinating stories. So I was very interested in some

1109
01:04:58.280 --> 01:05:01.280
<v Speaker 7>of the books that you've written, your background about JFK

1110
01:05:01.480 --> 01:05:06.079
<v Speaker 7>and the CIA and on all that is. So we'll

1111
01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:07.840
<v Speaker 7>have to have you back on for a show that's

1112
01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.360
<v Speaker 7>a little slightly different but still will interest an audience

1113
01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:12.239
<v Speaker 7>for sure. I'm certain.

1114
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:15.119
<v Speaker 9>Thanks Dan, I appreciate that. Well.

1115
01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:16.920
<v Speaker 7>I want to thank you very much Michael for coming

1116
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:20.159
<v Speaker 7>on and talking about your great book, Burn Farm, the

1117
01:05:20.199 --> 01:05:23.320
<v Speaker 7>story of Shila Lebar, And thank you very much for

1118
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:25.679
<v Speaker 7>appearing on the program, and thank you for a great interview,

1119
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:27.199
<v Speaker 7>Michael Benson.

1120
01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:28.400
<v Speaker 8>Thank you.

1121
01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:31.960
<v Speaker 7>Have a good night, Michael, good night, my bye. You've

1122
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.119
<v Speaker 7>been listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking

1123
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:36.559
<v Speaker 7>killers in true crime history, and the authors that are

1124
01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:37.800
<v Speaker 7>written about them. Good Night,
