WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.519 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for 2 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:14.880 February third, twenty twenty six. My name is Matthew Watkins, 3 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:17.199 editor in chief of the Texas Tribune, and I am 4 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.199 joined as usual by Law and Justice reporter Eleanor Klibanoff. Hello, Eleanor, 5 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:22.120 thanks for having me. 6 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:24.800 It is still law in politics. I saw that written 7 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.800 in the script. I decided not to fix it. Truly 8 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:30.280 insane we are, I mean, I guess I'm only six 9 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.719 months into this job, six months into this job of 10 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:35.159 you not getting the title. 11 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:37.000 And part of it is I have to say it 12 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.679 literally every other week, every other week, and yeah, I 13 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:41.520 still got wrong. So in this case, I think I 14 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:43.719 knew it. I just typed it poorly. 15 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:47.679 Sure, law on politics, I mean justice. You know it's 16 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:48.679 in the it's in the name. 17 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:53.759 Yeah. And here also with us is Matt Baum's, executive 18 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:58.880 director of the Texas Advanced Energy Business Alliance. He's an 19 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.119 expert on the grid, renewed energy and it's an impact 20 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.880 on the economy. Welcome Matt. 21 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:05.560 Thank you so much. Matt. 22 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.519 It's great to be here, great to have you. So 23 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:10.920 the reason we are having Matt on is because we 24 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:15.120 are about two weeks away from when news started coming 25 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:20.640 down that sent tear across Texas. The news was of 26 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.799 course that it was going to be cold outside, you know, 27 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:27.040 and that brought you know, the normal Texas response. Grocery 28 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:32.120 store shelves cleared, emergency provisions acquired, everyone sort of reliving 29 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:36.439 their collective trauma from twenty twenty one. The weather, I mean, 30 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.040 I don't mean to downplay it too much. It had 31 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:42.200 an impact. Roads were shut down across the state, Schools 32 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.920 canceled in North Texas for you know, basically a week eleanor. 33 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:50.280 I had a very interesting experience where I had a 34 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:54.159 pre planned ski trip, so I was actually in Colorado 35 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.920 working the Sunday on call shift, you know, responding to 36 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:04.680 the weather. It was negative four degrees outside where I was, 37 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.959 and like a literal blizzard going on. While I was 38 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.319 checking in on my colleagues where it was you know, 39 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:13.759 like twenty seven degrees, and we were. 40 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:15.240 Like, it's all over for us. 41 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:16.439 Shut it down. 42 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:19.240 It is funny. It's like, you know, water, water everywhere, 43 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.199 not a drop to drink exactly exactly, yeah, we do not. 44 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:24.879 I will say the number of meetings we had to 45 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:29.280 plan and prepare for this cold spell. I think it 46 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:30.840 was more than we have to prepare for, like the 47 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:36.360 election we have upcoming, like Texans stay ready for cold weather. 48 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:37.840 Matter. Are you from. 49 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.960 Texas now, I'm not originally Matt, I'm adopted. I'm an 50 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:41.759 adopted Texan. 51 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.280 Okay are you Are you from a colder climate? 52 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:48.560 I am? Yeah. So for me, this is like, you know, 53 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.520 not normal, but certainly something that we're used to. But 54 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:56.080 I think that we're all dealing with PTSD from winter 55 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.879 storm URI, right, Like a lot of the kind of 56 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.840 news attention, I think people's general anxiety stems from that 57 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.000 shared trauma that we all have back in twenty twenty one. 58 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:09.759 So I think I really do think that plays a 59 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.080 big role as far as the news cycle. But we 60 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:13.960 can get into the details of kind of what went 61 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.759 down over the weekend and how the storm was a 62 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:16.400 little bit different. 63 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:17.680 Yep. 64 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.840 That's that's exactly right, And I think that's sort of 65 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.000 the topic we want to talk about as well, right, 66 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.840 because we did have what you would sort of describe 67 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:31.800 as normal winter storm chaos, which is you know, ice, 68 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.800 maybe some tree limbs on the line, power lines causing 69 00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:40.800 you know, sporadic localized outages and rows being frozen over. 70 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.639 But the question, I think the thing that sends people 71 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.520 rushing to the grocery store is that collective trauma that 72 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:49.360 twenty twenty one power outage where you know, the grid 73 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.159 almost failed and brought you know, the largest sort of 74 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:59.080 rolling blackout situation in our country's history, and we managed 75 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.680 to avoid that at this time, and it has raised 76 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:04.960 the question that I think we want to sort of 77 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.879 make be the topic of this podcast, which is have 78 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:11.840 they fixed the grid? Does this mean that our days 79 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.319 of a tenuous grid are over? Have we solved the 80 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.800 problem heading into the future. Matt, you are going to 81 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.600 help us kind of think through this question lending your expertise. 82 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.160 But first off, I want to see, you know, let's 83 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.439 take a step back. Let's talk about what actually happened 84 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:32.279 during the storm. I'm sure you were probably tracking, you know, 85 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.519 the sources of power and how everything was going. Did 86 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:37.920 we ever have a moment of worry, did it ever 87 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:42.399 look sketchy at all? Or did basically Texas past this 88 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:44.800 test with you know, flying colors. 89 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.600 Well, I would say flying colors in the sense that 90 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:51.759 we had some local outages as far as you know, 91 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.120 ice on wires, which is to be expected during this 92 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.639 kind of storm, but nothing like we saw during Winter 93 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:02.160 Storm Uri. So you know, the storm I think tells 94 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.600 us two things at the same time. It wasn't as 95 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.839 extreme as URI, and the grid is genuinely much stronger 96 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.279 than it was five years ago, right, So both of 97 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:15.920 those things can be true at the same time the weather, 98 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.759 I think duration matters a lot. URI was days of 99 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.240 extreme cold and this storm was a lot shorter, right, 100 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.759 But even so, we saw really high demand and tight 101 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:31.519 hours and the system handled those moments without any cas 102 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.040 gatting failure. So that's the progress and I think the 103 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.439 state deserves a lot of credit for that. 104 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.079 Yeah, I mean I remember sort of telling people in 105 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.600 the lead up, right, like we have to remember here 106 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.480 that in Austin, when it's going to be in the twenties, 107 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.240 that means it's going to be thirty degrees warmer than 108 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:51.160 it was during that you know, winter Storm Uri, right, 109 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:55.319 Like it was the difference between thirty two degrees and 110 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.399 sixty two degrees basically, but you know, tagged on there, 111 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:04.480 So definitely a situation where it wasn't as extreme of 112 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:09.040 a storm. I want to kind of talk through about 113 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:11.360 some of the different reasons for that. Some of which 114 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:13.920 you possibly mentioned, and see if you could just sort 115 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:17.800 of reflect a little bit on on you know, what 116 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.240 impact those different things had. The first one I want 117 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.319 to bring up is just weatherization, right, I mean, one 118 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.360 of the big issues in twenty twenty one was a 119 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:33.600 lot of natural gas plants in particular, were not equipped 120 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.079 for that level of cold. They you know, lost the 121 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:41.439 ability to either deliver natural you know, move natural gas 122 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:46.120 or or generate power. That fell off in a very 123 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.399 quick succession. The grid then had to sort of you know, 124 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.759 the grid operators Urkott had to step in and you 125 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.800 know shut you know, reduce demand significantly so we didn't 126 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:04.199 completely overpower the grid. Is what is the kind of 127 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.319 weatherization process we've gone through over the five years after that? 128 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.959 And you know how much did that help? How much? 129 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:12.639 How much is this assigned that that's working? 130 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:21.399 Definitely positive science. The state really took URI seriously and 131 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:26.319 enacted serious what weatherization reforms in response to winter storm Ury, 132 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.160 and a lot of that worked over the weekend. 133 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:29.399 Right. 134 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:34.360 So you mentioned the weatherization of gas plants was largely 135 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.120 optional when URI hit, and that became mandatory in the aftermath, 136 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:44.399 including inspections that happened on a recurring basis. Simply put, 137 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:48.160 I think that gas plants during ury were not prepared 138 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.839 for the type of extreme cold we're seeing now on 139 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.720 a regular basis. So I think that is a major change, 140 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:57.639 and I think it's worth congratulating the state because it's 141 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:02.800 something that Texas obviously took seriously, and we're doing a 142 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.079 lot better than we were back in twenty twenty one. 143 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.439 The grid also looks very different than it did back then, right, 144 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:09.879 it's worth talking about those changes. I don't want to 145 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.879 skip ahead too far, but the mix that we have 146 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.639 on the grid is very different than it was this 147 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:16.920 time five years ago. Yeah. 148 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.480 Absolutely, And that you set up my next question perfectly right, 149 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.399 Because there's been a little bit of chatter among the 150 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:30.560 sort of energy wonk world, very active Twitter community out 151 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.960 there that I like to follow and pretend that I 152 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.720 am one of those people as well about but a 153 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:37.320 lot of those folks have been talking a lot about 154 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:42.799 batteries during this period. I will quote a story that 155 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:47.080 ran in the Texas Tribune saying basically, battery storage has 156 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.759 more than tripled between twenty twenty three and twenty twenty five. 157 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:58.000 Allowing you know that you know when there's higher demand 158 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.879 or perhaps less apply to kick in and supply more 159 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.200 power to the grid. What did the role of batteries, 160 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:09.120 What was the role of batteries in this uh during 161 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:12.279 the storm and during the grid and staying as strong 162 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:12.759 as it did. 163 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.720 It can't be overestimated, and I'm really happy you asked 164 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:23.080 that question. Batteries largely didn't exist when winter Storm Ury 165 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.080 hit on the grid, and we now have about seventeen 166 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:31.600 gigawatts of installed capacity, So that's a that's a gigantic change, right, 167 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.240 And I think there's a misunderstanding sometimes on how battery 168 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.919 storage works, so I wanted to just touch on that. Yeah, 169 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.440 batteries don't run all the time, right, They're not considered 170 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:46.960 base load, and what they are is their emergency responders. 171 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.480 So what happened this is this weekend was a great 172 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:54.639 example of that. Is Monday morning was when ERCA projected 173 00:09:55.879 --> 00:10:00.480 kind of the tightest grid conditions, meaning the generation would 174 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:04.679 come very close to what the demand forecast was. 175 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:05.159 We didn't. 176 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.879 Luckily, we didn't come close to that, but the forecasts 177 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:10.559 showed that Monday morning around eight am would be the 178 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:13.879 tightest hour, and that's when batteries stepped up and discharged 179 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.039 about seven gigwatts of energy. Right, So the technology is 180 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:21.879 very different than how we think of traditional energy generation. 181 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.159 But the advantage to battery storage you mentioned we're leading 182 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.399 the country in battery storage. There's no other state in 183 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.639 the country that has as much installed capacity as we do. 184 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.519 We're at seventeen gigwatts of capacity. And the reason that's 185 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:38.159 important is because they step up extremely quickly. They're actually 186 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.639 the most dispatchable form of energy that we have. Right 187 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.600 There's nothing that can ramp up as quickly as batteries, 188 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:49.320 and that's exactly the tool that aircut needs in its toolbox. 189 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.360 When grid conditions are getting tight and you can cover 190 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.759 that gap by a couple hours, that's just huge. 191 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.320 Can you explain a little bit just like how these 192 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:00.840 batteries work? I mean, who's build bilding them? Like, what 193 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:01.759 do they look like? 194 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.600 In cause I think minor Shanning is it's actually more 195 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.399 similar to what we're thinking, Like can I imagine batteries? 196 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.360 People think, like, surely you don't just mean batteries, But 197 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.919 minor shanning is, like the prep work I did before 198 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:18.320 the storm of recharging my phone bank is not that 199 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.000 different than what we're talking about here. 200 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:25.320 Right, Yeah, So there's grid scale batatteries, right, and those 201 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.159 are the ones we're talking about in this conversation. And 202 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.960 then there's distributed batteries like a power wall or a 203 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.200 base power battery. Right, A bunch of good examples there. 204 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.480 But on the grid, the utility scale batteries, what they 205 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:42.000 do is they store electricity when there's plenty of cheap electrons, right, 206 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.320 So in Texas that typically means in the afternoon hours, 207 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.360 when solar power output is really high. That's when batteries 208 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:55.679 start storing their energy, and then they discharge when prices 209 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.200 are a lot higher and energy is more scarce. Right. 210 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:03.360 So they're entirely being built by private companies, right, This 211 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.240 is all private investment coming to Texas. And what they 212 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.399 look like is they look pretty much like large shipping 213 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.559 containers that are sitting at substations or next to power 214 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:19.519 plants for the most part in rural Texas. They could 215 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.840 be they could range anywhere from the size of huge 216 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.320 shipping container to the size of a refrigerator in a garage. Right, 217 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.080 But they all fundamentally work the same way, which is 218 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.320 they store power and then release it instantly. When the 219 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:33.159 grid needs some help. 220 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.360 And one of the things I think there's an interesting 221 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:41.120 conversation about this is how much can we rely on 222 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:44.639 batteries to prevent you know, things like what happened in 223 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:47.519 twenty twenty one. Right. One thing I've sort of read 224 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.679 about these batteries is they're great for moments of sort 225 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.320 of short term need, but you know then you sort 226 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.639 of drain them of their juice and you have to 227 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.440 recharge them and wait till a time where power again 228 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:05.399 sort of like amply available and everything like that tell 229 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.200 me a little bit about like how they factor into 230 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.320 the idea of keeping the grid secure in an event 231 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:14.120 like this or maybe even an event like twenty and 232 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:18.279 twenty one where you have much more sustained low temperatures 233 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:19.000 and issues there. 234 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:23.639 Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it points 235 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.840 to how political energy has gotten since Winterstorm EURI. Right, 236 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.399 there's a feeling I think at the capital of well, 237 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.840 I like this technology but not the other one, and 238 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.720 fundamentally that's not how the grid works, right, Like, all 239 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:44.639 these different technologies play a really important role. And you 240 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:48.360 can go look at you know, the urkat dashboard, like 241 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:50.519 a lot of us nerds do and just track it 242 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.840 all day long and see what the generation mix looks 243 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:55.919 like as the day goes on. Right, You're not going 244 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.600 to have solar power at nine pm, right, but you're 245 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:03.440 gonna have tons of solar capacity in those peak afternoon hours. 246 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:03.720 Right. 247 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.240 Similarly, you'll see battery storage stepping up during like a 248 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.519 cold winter morning like we saw last weekend, right, or 249 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.320 in the summertime that typically is in the sunset hours, 250 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.159 right when the sun goes down before that wind energy 251 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.799 picks up at night, So it's covering those really important 252 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:27.120 gaps when the grid needs more battery storage. So they're 253 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.240 not meant to run the grid all day, absolutely, They're 254 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.879 meant to handle the most dangerous moments, the spikes, the gaps, 255 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:38.120 the surprises when a power plant trips. That's when batteries 256 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.639 really play a huge role. So they don't replace the engine. 257 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.639 They think of them more as shock absorbers on the system. 258 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.879 Is there any worry? I mean, I don't know if 259 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.679 I've necessarily heard this specific argument, which doesn't mean that 260 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.559 it isn't out there, but I remember, like you know, 261 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:55.240 the conversation around like wind power and even solar power 262 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.480 during the last winter storm was right, like it comes 263 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.879 on during the good times, when it's sunny and the 264 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.679 wind is blowing. It's very cheap to produce during those times, 265 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.519 which changes the profit margin situation from a place like 266 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.759 a coal power plant or a gap natural gas power plant, 267 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.360 making it less likely for those things to come on. 268 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.840 But then something bad happens, like twenty twenty one or 269 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.240 maybe even twenty twenty six, when you need that coal 270 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.720 and gas but the market has kept them out of it, 271 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:33.080 making the grid less sustainable. Is that an argument that 272 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.440 you hear and do you lend any credence to that argument? 273 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.120 I guess I'm looking now less in terms of how 274 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.720 we did this past, you know, a couple of weeks, 275 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:47.000 in terms of like long term futureable sustainability. Yeah, what 276 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.120 do you think about that? That question? 277 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.159 It's a great question. And we have a competitive free 278 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.399 market in Urcat, right, which is very unique across the country. 279 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.679 And I can tell you from working in the private sector, 280 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:04.720 there's a lot of businesses that prefer DOT coming to 281 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:11.080 Texas versus other rtos or ISOs where markets are less competitive, right, 282 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.960 And there are capacity markets across the country that don't 283 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.080 necessarily function as efficiently as we do here. In Texas. 284 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:24.879 So to answer your question, solar and wind absolutely lower 285 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.679 the baseline price. Right. They have no fuel costs, so 286 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:34.759 when they're producing, they basically displace the most expensive generators 287 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.840 and that keeps prices lower and it reduces how often 288 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.200 the market gets close to scarcity, right, like during a 289 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.440 winter storm event. And then batteries, like we were just 290 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:48.679 talking about, when demand surges or something trips offline, that's 291 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:50.799 when the prices can jump fast. And we saw that 292 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:54.759 during Winter Storm Uri, right, those insane price spikes. So 293 00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:00.440 batteries respond instantly to those prices and inject power at 294 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.640 that key moment. So they all play a critical role. 295 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.880 And you know, I think the state Texas has shown 296 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.920 it's all of the above strategy over the last several years. 297 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.359 And I know Governor Abbott has talked about how we've 298 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:21.279 added forty gigawatts of generation since Winter Storm Jury, right, 299 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:25.240 about ninety percent of new generations since then has been solar, 300 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.920 wind and batteries. And that's again, that's just free market economics. 301 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:34.519 It's not being subsidized. It's all just private investment being 302 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.079 made in Texas, and all the market signals are there 303 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:39.359 because of all the low growth that's coming, and that's 304 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:41.680 like a whole other podcast that we could do talking 305 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.880 about data centers and AI and all that. 306 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.680 Yeah, and I do want to get into that a 307 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.599 little bit. But you actually set up as we're going 308 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.359 down the list of you know, factors for why this 309 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:54.920 year was better than five years ago. I mean, the 310 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:56.759 other one I wanted to touch on was just the 311 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.440 rise of wind and solar. Right, there is a lot 312 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.039 more and in solar power online now than there was 313 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.160 five years ago. How did that affect things? 314 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.440 It is huge that we saw. So I believe Monday 315 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.799 was the coldest day of the year on January twenty sixth, 316 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.759 and solar peaked at twenty five gigawatts, win peaked at 317 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.400 eighteen gigawatts, battery storage peaked at over seven gigawatts. So 318 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.200 if you add that all up, you're looking at over 319 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:31.200 fifty gigawatts of clean, reliable power when Texas needed it 320 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.920 the most, Right, So, I think we're in a new 321 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.319 chapter now where the technology is proven and stepping up 322 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.240 in a big way when we need it. Not to 323 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:43.240 mention you know, several months in a row during the 324 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:47.119 summertime where solar and batteries are keeping the lights on 325 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.599 for millions of Texans. So I think I hope that 326 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.240 the political phase of how we talk about energy has ended, 327 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:57.359 because again, we're going to need all of the electrons 328 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.400 to keep the grid up and running, considering how much 329 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.799 load is coming to our state. 330 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.279 And I mean fans of the pot. Last week, we 331 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:05.400 talked obviously about like the oil and gas industry and 332 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:09.759 how and you know, we talked about like even on 333 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:11.839 that side, I think most people in oil and gas 334 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.440 are kind of like, you know, we need all the 335 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.920 energy from all the sources, like as long as everything 336 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.079 is sort of is working. And that was you know, 337 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.440 unrelated to the weather, but just like we're going to 338 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.720 need a lot more energy for all the data centers 339 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.160 and AI and just people move into Texas, you. 340 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:32.799 Know, And that's that's such an overlook point because oil 341 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.359 and gas is electrifying their operations out in the permea, right, 342 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.400 so they increasingly need cheap electrons, mainly solar and batteries 343 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:46.279 to electrify and keep those those costs down. So it's 344 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.640 all interrelated, right, Like all of these different sectors depend 345 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.559 on each other, and I think that all we can 346 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.160 do as a state is planned for the load that's coming, 347 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.480 and try to be more proactive and not just wait 348 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.880 for the tsunami to hit, but really start getting ready 349 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:04.119 and send those markets to make sure that folks are 350 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.920 coming with us here versus in other parts of the country. 351 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.079 Yeah, so the last question, we'll go back to what 352 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.000 we were talking about at the very beginning, right, which 353 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.359 is just also, the weather wasn't as bad as it 354 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.960 was five years ago, right, And and that sort of 355 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:21.640 sets up like, I guess the big picture question I'd 356 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:26.759 be interested in your insight on, which is how much 357 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.160 of this past you know, a couple of weeks is 358 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.000 a sign that we fixed our grid problems or how 359 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.640 much of it is just well, it wasn't as bad 360 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:39.119 as it was before, right, Like if a twenty twenty 361 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:43.200 one level storm hit us now, would you feel more 362 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:48.559 confident in our ability to withstand it? Then? You know 363 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.960 we should have felt heading into twenty twenty one. 364 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:56.480 That's that's the question, right And you know I'm not nostradamus, 365 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.240 and yeah, it's hard to put hypotheticals on it, but 366 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.119 I will say we dip down into like single digit temperatures, 367 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.319 then we are in trouble. And a lot of that 368 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:09.319 comes from resistance heating. Like I think folks don't quite 369 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.559 understand how inefficient our homes and businesses are. If you 370 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:18.079 add up all of the resistance heating in Texas, you 371 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.559 would get about twelve to fourteen gigwatts. 372 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.960 Explain resistance heating really quick. 373 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:29.680 Yeah, So think of like blowing a toaster oven through 374 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.640 your home, and that's really what resistance heating is. It's 375 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.480 just extremely inefficient electric heating. And that's still how we 376 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.319 build a lot of our multi family homes and apartments 377 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:42.880 across the state, right because you know, the building codes 378 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.559 are very minimal, and you know, we can get into 379 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.599 that conversation, but really the point here is that if 380 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.599 you could solve the resistance heating problem, you can just 381 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.440 wipe off twelve to fourteen gigwatts of peak load during 382 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.480 the wintertime. And that's the key problem. If we dip 383 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.200 down to single digits, you're going to see just the 384 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:06.599 heating skyrocket. And it's not just about a grid emergency. 385 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:08.920 It's also about the costs for the folks that are 386 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.599 living in those homes, right, because they hopefully make it 387 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:14.000 through the weekend, but then at the end of the 388 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:18.079 month that the bill comes in and those prices are exorbitant, right, 389 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.799 and we're in twenty twenty six and still building homes 390 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.519 as if we were in the twentieth century. So that 391 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.759 in my mind, that's like the quickest, lowest hanging fruit 392 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:28.359 if you want to solve this winter problem. 393 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.440 I think, you know, these one off freezing cold disasters 394 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.680 in Texas get so much attention, but I you know, 395 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.440 we've also had extremely hot summers where we've had to 396 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.480 worry about the grid getting tight. I mean, how do 397 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.640 we look on that side of things going into the 398 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:47.319 summer for what, frankly is like a pretty standard expected 399 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:51.680 Texas weather disaster of people cooking to death on the sidewalk. 400 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:58.039 Yeah, well, that that is really interesting. Like I would 401 00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:00.920