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No we're necessary day, my law your 24 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:02.520 Magna Eating Play, Be Quiet for a second. 25 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:03.600 Host. 26 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.719 You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking 27 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.840 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:26.000 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK. 29 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.719 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 30 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.879 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 31 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.400 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:48.680 Good evening. 33 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:51.359 This is your host Stan Zupaski for the program True Murder, 34 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.000 The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the 35 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.840 authors that have written about them. In April two thousand 36 00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.519 and six, a twelve year old girl named Jr. Committed 37 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.760 a brutal crime the terrified parents everywhere. After weeks of plotting, 38 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.120 she and her twenty three year old boyfriend stabbed to 39 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:08.919 death her mother, father, and little brother in the family's 40 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.919 home in Medicine at hat Alberta, making her the youngest 41 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.719 multiple killer in Canadian history. Jr. Was a quiet, honor 42 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.080 roll student living in the small prairie town of Medicine 43 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.560 hat Alberta, but her middle class existence concealed an ominous 44 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:28.400 alter ego runaway devil. Her internet persona professed a fondness 45 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.240 for a darker world of death metal music, goth subculture, 46 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:33.879 and her love for the much older Jeremy Stenkey, a 47 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.400 high school dropout living in a trailer park with his mother. 48 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:39.960 When JayR got involved with Jeremy, her concerned parents tried 49 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.919 all the tough love strategies to restrain her and interrupt 50 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:44.639 the relationship to no avail. 51 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:46.360 Was Jr. 52 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:48.439 Simply growing up too fast and under the spell of 53 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:51.560 u Swengali like Stenk Or was she really the puppet 54 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.280 master who manipulated her boyfriend to do her bidding? Based 55 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.439 on the trials and exclusive interviews with the prosecutors, police, 56 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:02.400 family and friends of the victim and murderers, Runaway Devil, 57 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:06.759 Forbidden Love like aanthropy, death metal and murder? How Forbidden 58 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.080 Love drove a twelve year old to murder her family? 59 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:13.360 Runaway Devil with my special guest this evening, Robert Remington 60 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:16.039 and Sherry Zigfoost Zigfoust. 61 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:16.840 Welcome to the. 62 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.599 Program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Robert Remington, 63 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:22.479 thank you very much for agreeing to this program. 64 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.759 Hey, thanks Dan, thanks for having us. 65 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.520 Yes, I'm what is the status of Sherry? Is she 66 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:30.599 going to call in as well? 67 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.400 I believe she was scheduled to I know that she 68 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:38.719 was on the West coast, so I don't know. I 69 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.759 haven't seeneral day. I'm sorry, and I got tied up 70 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:41.879 in traffick very late. 71 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.759 Oh no, no problem, no problem at all. Well, let's 72 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.400 start off until she does connect and we'll get her 73 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:52.120 right on air and introduce her and get her to 74 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.639 be answered some questions as well. Let me ask you personally, Robert, 75 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.479 how did you become involved in this case and why 76 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.000 did you personally decide to write about a book about 77 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:01.960 this murdered trial. 78 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:05.680 Well, we got involved in the case when the story 79 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:08.479 broke down in Medicine Hat and you know, we had 80 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:12.120 a report that three people were dead in a house 81 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:14.800 and Sherry was the first one to go down. We 82 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.199 first thought it was a what we in the business 83 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:22.040 called a area domestic case, you know, a murder suicide, 84 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:26.920 you know, father, distraught, father, whatever, and you know, so 85 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:31.319 she went down there first and then immediately had found 86 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.040 out that there was something bigger going on, that this 87 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.759 twelve year old girl was missing, that the police were 88 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:43.839 looking for her. And it just because just every day, 89 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.639 you know, it just got deeper and deeper and more 90 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.600 complex and more fascinating for us. And the reason we 91 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.120 decided to write a book on it was it wasn't 92 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.879 until you know, more than a year later. It was 93 00:04:55.959 --> 00:05:00.600 during her trial and we realized that this was a 94 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.480 significant case. She this is going to be the youngest 95 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.439 person ever convicted multiple homicide in Canada. And we decided, 96 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.160 you know, somebody is going to be doing a book 97 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.079 on it, and might as well be us, because we 98 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:17.600 happen to know more about it than anyone else, especially myself. 99 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:19.759 Unknown to me at the time of the murder, but 100 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:22.839 I found out during the trial a friend of mine 101 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.560 was also a friend of the victims, and so we 102 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:27.480 had all these connections and all this information and we 103 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:29.040 decided to go ahead with the book. 104 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:33.439 That's great now. The story is set in a place 105 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.199 called Medicine Had for our American friends here in our 106 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:40.600 audience and for people that don't know in Medicine Had, Alberta. 107 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.560 Where is this located in relation to say a city 108 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:45.959 we might know, Calgary, Alberta. And what is the size 109 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.399 of the city, what is the community known for what 110 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:50.439 are the people like there? 111 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:56.680 Really? Medicine Had as a prairie city south east of 112 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:00.879 Calgary about three hours sort of near this Skatchland border. 113 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.480 It's well, I guess, about thirty forty minutes from the 114 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:12.399 Saskatchewan border. It's a very fascinating place. It's very very hot, 115 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:17.319 ara dry summers. It has actually cactus that blooms, their 116 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:24.720 small yellow cactuses deep coolies, you know, carved by the 117 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:26.920 sort of wind and rain out of the prairie. And 118 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.920 nearby is a World Heritage site called Dinosaur Provincial Park. 119 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:35.120 There's a lot of hoodoos, so it has a very 120 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:40.439 rich sort of descriptive quality about it. It is known 121 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:44.399 primarily it sits on top of the largest or one 122 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:49.720 of the largest natural gas fields in North America. Rudyard 123 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.439 Kipling had visited this area in the early nineteen hundreds 124 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.839 and he wrote that he saw all these flaming, you know, 125 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:04.959 gas flares and everything, and he wrote that that the 126 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:10.560 area had all hell for a basement, and because of 127 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.199 all that, it was this Dante like kind of inferno. 128 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.199 But we're we're, you know, part of driving the area. 129 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:22.000 It actually had at one time it had gas fired 130 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:24.839 street lights on this prairie city and they actually just 131 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.519 kept them burning because gas was so cheap, you know, 132 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:29.399 it was cheaper to let them burn than to pay, 133 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:32.439 you know, civil employees go around and put them out. 134 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:37.199 And today the city is about fifty five sixty thousand people. 135 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:41.240 It's a oil and gas it's ranching. It is. There's 136 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:45.879 a nearby military based Canadian Forces base that also a 137 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:50.000 lot of British troops trained there. It's also near in 138 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.160 Saskatchewan on the Saskatchewan Birder border. There's a place called 139 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:57.959 Cypress Hill Supervincial Park. It's the only place in this 140 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.959 section of North America that was untouched the ice age. 141 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:04.199 So it's a you have this dry flat area and 142 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:07.839 then these hills that are very lush and high and 143 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.800 green and palm palm trees, pine trees. I'm sorry, so 144 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.600 it's got this rich tapestry. It's a it's actually quite 145 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:18.399 a fascinating place. A lot of old brick buildings downtown 146 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:23.319 along the river valley, the so Saskatchewan River, and there's big, 147 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:25.839 huge dogwood trees that grow there. And it has a 148 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:29.519 lot of these brick buildings because it had a brick 149 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:35.600 yard that was they had a rich depositive clay, and 150 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.039 they had this abundance of natural gas, so they were 151 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.799 able to fire the clay and build these bricks for 152 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:44.080 all the prairie cities and across the emerging West, and 153 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.200 so it had it's got these old kind of brick buildings. Downtown, 154 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.159 it's kind of a neat little new town. 155 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.519 So it's got of it's got a rich like you say, 156 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.960 rich tapestry, but a rich history and as well as 157 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.480 the certain affluence anyway, there's a certain success to the 158 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.919 city itself. 159 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.919 It's not hired in poverty as much. Yeah, No, it's 160 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:10.679 it's you know, mainly I would say the working class, 161 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:14.159 you know, upper you know, middle working class people, as 162 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.720 as could be expected in a in a resource town, 163 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:22.720 natural gas town. But there's also like any community, doctors, lawyers, uh, 164 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:28.000 you know, small Uh, it is somewhat isolated because it's 165 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.600 it's three and a half hours from the nearest big city, 166 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.159 which is Calgary, and and then yeah, and then beyond 167 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:40.000 that you get uh, you know, you go to Regina, Saskatchewan, 168 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:45.720 and yeah, so it's it's uh out there. As as 169 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.480 another author who wrote the book in True Blood described 170 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.480 the town of Holcomb, Kansas, where that where that murder occurred. 171 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.600 But let's get to the subject of the book or 172 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.159 one of the subjects of the book, and that is 173 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:03.360 a woman named JR. 174 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.799 Obviously can't use her real name because of her age, 175 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.799 especially hearing We're good in Canada by the Young of 176 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.080 Youth Criminal Justice Act. Who can't name her? 177 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:19.120 That's correct, right, One of the subjects of The Runaway 178 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:20.399 Devil is a girl named JR. 179 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:21.639 Like I said, and. 180 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:23.879 I like to know who were her parents, What were 181 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.360 parents like, what was their their backgrounds, and what was 182 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:28.919 Jr's early family life growing up? 183 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.360 Well, one of the odd things about this case is 184 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.399 that we really don't know a lot about her years 185 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.759 growing up because the people who can tell us here 186 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:40.879 all Dad, that her mother, her father, her little brother. 187 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:44.679 They were all murdered by JR. And her accomplice. So 188 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.039 we can only garner, you know, secondhand and through my 189 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.039 friend who is a friend of the family. The mom 190 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:58.879 and dad met in Ontario. They were both from her 191 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:03.879 near an area town called Sudbury, Ontario, and they had 192 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:10.679 met there and they moved to Alberta to you know, 193 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:15.039 in the mid early two thousand there was you know, 194 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:19.879 huge boom going on in Alberta, large supplier of oil, 195 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:25.480 the largest supply of oil in Alberta outside of Saudi 196 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.799 Arabia and big oil boom going on, So Alberta at 197 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.159 the time was a magnet for people from other places 198 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:37.480 and they were drawn to Alberta. They first lived in 199 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:45.600 a little town south of Calgary called Okato's and her 200 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:51.399 dad Jr's dad, Mark, worked for a large gas company 201 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:57.080 called in Cana, and they had a rough patch in 202 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.559 their lives. Both of them had had done through UH 203 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:06.919 counseling for substance abuse UH, but they were clean when 204 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:10.039 they when they got married, and they were I I 205 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:12.320 guess they were drawn together because they both had these 206 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.039 backgrounds and and they they they had really overcome sort 207 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.360 of those problems in their past, and they vowed to 208 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.120 each other that they were going to live UH a 209 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.879 you know, clean life, and they were going to be 210 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.279 model parents, and they were going to raise their children 211 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.919 as model parents. And and they were actually inspiration to others. 212 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:39.600 A friend of mine UH Met Jr's mother UH Deborah 213 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:44.919 through UH Alcoholics Anonymous M and narcotics anonymous, and Deborah 214 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.039 was kind of a mentor and a real inspiration to 215 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.240 UH to a lot of people who were struggling, and 216 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:54.120 and she really worked hard to help people get off 217 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.080 substance abuse issues. As far as we know, there was 218 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.559 never any substance abuse in the home. There was never 219 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:06.679 as far as we know, you know, no alcohol use. 220 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:11.039 So they were described actually by friends and family and 221 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.559 neighbors in uh his little town called lotos as a 222 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:20.519 Norman Rockwell family, and Jr. Was a kind of you know, 223 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.360 they went to a church and they were they were 224 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.440 they were in school jar with a very smart girl. 225 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:30.279 Her little brother, Jacob was born in this town called Otoes. 226 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.399 And then Mark early worked hard, and he and he 227 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:35.559 he bettered himself. He took a lot of classes and 228 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.639 and he he got a job as an instrument technician 229 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:43.600 at a gas plant near Medicine Hat. And he was 230 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:50.639 bile accounts, a very diligent UH guy who was good 231 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:55.039 with machines and tools and and UH was a problem solver. 232 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.519 And he was a real asset to the UH, to 233 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.840 the people he worked with, and to the operation of 234 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:04.000 this key gas plant that was about forty five minutes 235 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.879 outside of Medicine Had. And they felt when they moved 236 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.120 to Medicine Had that they had really arrived. They had 237 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.759 overcome a lot of struggles in life. They bought their 238 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:19.279 first home together in this subdivision, and you know, kind 239 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:23.919 of working middle class people in the area. And Jr. Was, 240 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.840 you know, going to school. She was a very bright, 241 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:31.159 smart student. She was on the swim club, She was 242 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.440 an a student honorall student, went to a Catholic girls' school, 243 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.320 and you know, things were going along well, and then 244 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.279 things kind of went off the rails when she kind 245 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.320 of the last half of the sixth grade for her, 246 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.440 she started to go sideways. And how old was she 247 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.600 at that time? She was eleven and a half and 248 00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:00.720 she had she was she was very mature her age 249 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:07.000 when the physically pardon physically physically physically very mature when 250 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.399 the when the crime occurred in the spring of two 251 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.399 thousand and six, she was she was twelve and a 252 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.720 half years old, and she did not look like twelve. 253 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.159 She could easily pass for sixteen. She was physically mature, 254 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.000 but at a just to back up a bit, at 255 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.879 about age eleven and a half, grade six and a 256 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.080 few other girls at their school, they started getting into 257 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:35.600 sort of darker music and darker clothing and goth you know, 258 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.879 goth lifestyle. And it was a Catholic school, very conservative, 259 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.519 and and some of the other kids, you know, just 260 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.799 were then not making fun of them, but they were 261 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.960 sort of the outcasts. As one described, there was the 262 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.279 they were the dark group, and the sort of goth 263 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.600 these little goth kids and dressed in black and that 264 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.120 sort of thing. But things weren't, you know, too bad. 265 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.399 And it was when she came back to school in 266 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.879 grade seventh grade that's when the counselors and the and 267 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.320 the teachers started noticing. 268 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.799 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 269 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.120 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 270 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.039 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 271 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.759 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. 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And in that summer between the 283 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.400 sixth grade and the seventh grade, she had discovered social 284 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:15.519 networking websites, and she started posting profiles of herself on 285 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.799 a number of different sites, including one called Vampire Freaks, 286 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:24.400 which is an industrial sort of goth website, kind of 287 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.599 a faithbook or sorry Facebook of the of the goth 288 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:36.440 industrial metal crowd. And and she met it was at 289 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.039 that time that she started meeting some older males in 290 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:45.640 the goth community in medicine had it and it was 291 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:47.519 it was odd when I when I went down there 292 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.240 to cover this case, I drove into town and here's 293 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:55.400 this prairie conservative, prairie city, oil and gas workers, ranchers, cowboys, 294 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.480 you know, military guys. And I had spot right away. 295 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.680 There was these kids, these goth kids that I could see, 296 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.440 you know, and they stood out, They really stood out 297 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.200 in this in this community. And I and I to me, 298 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.079 it was almost a throwback. I went, you know, and geez, 299 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.160 I haven't seen any you know, goth kids walking around 300 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.599 for a long time. And and she had. She was 301 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.440 hanging around this a mall, typical mall, and a you know, 302 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.240 typical city, and it was there that she had started 303 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.559 to meet a couple of older guys from the goth community. 304 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.279 A guy that went by the name of Raven, you know, 305 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:35.200 he was really into the into the scene, and another 306 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:37.640 guy by the name of trench Coat, and they were 307 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.160 you know, eighteen nineteen, you know that age. She was twelve, 308 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.079 but to them she was more like sixteen. You know, 309 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.920 she never divulged her age. She was like fifteen. Girls 310 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.920 tend to mature earlier than boys anyway, and I'm sure 311 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:54.960 that she thought that the boys er age were you know, 312 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.160 geeky and everything else, and on and on and on. 313 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.519 So she started meeting these older males and they started 314 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.640 calling and her parents then were getting concerned. I mean, 315 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.680 their daughter was twelve years old and she was hanging 316 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.599 out with these guys who were seventeen and eighteen, and 317 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:12.599 so they had some concerns about it. And then the 318 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.079 school had concerns because you know, she was started going 319 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.319 through this rebellious stage and everything. But you know what 320 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.480 was kind of interesting about her is you know, very smart, 321 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.759 very intelligent. How they developed them and and I think 322 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.599 she was you know, went through this natural rebelliousness, but 323 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.359 she was also drawn to the artistic side of the 324 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:37.000 goth culture, of the music, the poetry, the you know, 325 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.799 that sort of brooding aspect to it. There's a very 326 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.799 artistic side to the to the goth culture and and 327 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.480 and she just kind of got into them. And then 328 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:56.519 lo and behold one of the guys who sort of 329 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.960 was on the periphery of the scene and coming into 330 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.440 it was a guy. But then with Jeremy Allen Stinky. 331 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:07.759 He was twenty one years old, and he he identified 332 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.200 with the goth subculture as well because he came from 333 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.839 the wrong side of the tracks. His mother was an alcoholic, 334 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.240 he had a you know, there's a lot of abuse 335 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:20.599 in his home, and and the goth community can be 336 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.440 very accepting, non judgmental, and you know, and he was 337 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.279 an outcast in his life. He was bullied, you know, 338 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:30.640 and people made fun of his last name. His must 339 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.599 name was Stinky, and the kids called him Stinky and 340 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.839 they and they were you know, he had a he 341 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.759 had a rough upbringing, rough life and and all of 342 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:46.039 a sudden, you know, he found this this goth community 343 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:50.599 that accepted him and and he also started posting profiles 344 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.359 on Vampire Freaks and a couple other sites and and 345 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.880 you know, and the and the thing about social networking 346 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.960 websites is you can be anybody you want, you can, 347 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.400 you know. She she pretended, you know, to be much 348 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.319 older than she was. She had this kind of vixen 349 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.480 like image, and she presented herself as being I think 350 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:17.920 fifteen and and and Jeremy was also presenting himself. Oh 351 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.279 that's sorry. She had one of her on one of 352 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:25.960 her online names was Runaway Double, and Jeremy called himself 353 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:32.200 sole Leader and and uh so they had these personas online. 354 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.599 And with Jeremy, you know, for the first time in 355 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:40.000 his life, he can actually be somebody. He was GoF, 356 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.039 you know, guy that you know, and he found acceptance 357 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.440 and and and he was a kind of a crazy 358 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:53.519 wild and everybody described him as outgoing and vivacious and 359 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.960 and he he he posted on his side and he 360 00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.839 bragged people that he was a three hundred year old 361 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.440 ware wolf. He was part of a Lichen brotherhood and 362 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.559 you know, and then they both wrote brooding poetry. So 363 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.799 here was this guy twenty one years old from the 364 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:14.880 wrong side of the tracks meets Jr. Middle class, smart, 365 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.160 honor roll student at the mall, and you know, she's 366 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.440 a middle class kid, and they sort of met, and 367 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.960 Jeremy was sort of this everybody kind of looked up 368 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:27.119 to him. He would do anything for anybody, and he 369 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:28.880 would give him a shirt off their back, and he 370 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:33.279 was just gregarious, kind of outgoing. And she was introduced 371 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.759 to him by another girl from in that scene, and 372 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.480 Jeremy had a green firebird and they went out in 373 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.440 the parking lot and they did Wheely not Wheely's donuts 374 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:46.880 and they call them in the parking lot and that 375 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.960 sort of thing. And they kind of laughed and hung 376 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:54.599 out and slowly they just started getting closer together. And 377 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.559 when this story broke, you know, we were describing them 378 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.480 as boyfriend girlfriend relationship, and people would say right to 379 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:05.839 us and say, how can you say that the guy's 380 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:09.079 a pedophile, she's twelve, he's twenty one. How can they 381 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.400 be boyfriend girlfriend? And you know what people don't understand 382 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:16.720 is that Jeremy was more like a fifteen year old. 383 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.480 You know, he had the intellectual and physical maturity, and 384 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:23.519 you know, he was immature. He was like a fifteen 385 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.720 year old kid, and j R. Was like a fifteen 386 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:29.559 or sixteen year old kid, because she was physically mature, 387 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.000 she was advanced, she was smart, and they sort of 388 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.400 met in the middle and it was it was like 389 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:41.400 fire and gasoline coming together. And her parents, you know, 390 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.359 didn't like the older guys she was hanging out with. 391 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:47.319 Let me let me interrupt you for a second round. 392 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.039 I want to go back just a little bit because 393 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.720 I think it's really important as well, is that we've 394 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:58.359 already had them meet, and there you've explained that they're 395 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:03.039 both She's of a few years mature, more mature than 396 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:05.200 she should be for her age, and he is far 397 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.599 less mature than his age. So it works out pretty good. 398 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.559 And I agree with you definitely on that. Let's go 399 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.839 back a little bit though, too, when when there was 400 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.880 the clothing infractions at school, and when she was sneaking 401 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.680