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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK.
Speaker 6: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening.
Speaker 7: This is your host Stan Zupaski for the program True Murder,
Speaker 7: The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the
Speaker 7: authors that have written about them. In April two thousand
Speaker 7: and six, a twelve year old girl named Jr. Committed
Speaker 7: a brutal crime the terrified parents everywhere. After weeks of plotting,
Speaker 7: she and her twenty three year old boyfriend stabbed to
Speaker 7: death her mother, father, and little brother in the family's
Speaker 7: home in Medicine at hat Alberta, making her the youngest
Speaker 7: multiple killer in Canadian history. Jr. Was a quiet, honor
Speaker 7: roll student living in the small prairie town of Medicine
Speaker 7: hat Alberta, but her middle class existence concealed an ominous
Speaker 7: alter ego runaway devil. Her internet persona professed a fondness
Speaker 7: for a darker world of death metal music, goth subculture,
Speaker 7: and her love for the much older Jeremy Stenkey, a
Speaker 7: high school dropout living in a trailer park with his mother.
Speaker 7: When JayR got involved with Jeremy, her concerned parents tried
Speaker 7: all the tough love strategies to restrain her and interrupt
Speaker 7: the relationship to no avail.
Speaker 5: Was Jr.
Speaker 7: Simply growing up too fast and under the spell of
Speaker 7: u Swengali like Stenk Or was she really the puppet
Speaker 7: master who manipulated her boyfriend to do her bidding? Based
Speaker 7: on the trials and exclusive interviews with the prosecutors, police,
Speaker 7: family and friends of the victim and murderers, Runaway Devil,
Speaker 7: Forbidden Love like aanthropy, death metal and murder? How Forbidden
Speaker 7: Love drove a twelve year old to murder her family?
Speaker 7: Runaway Devil with my special guest this evening, Robert Remington
Speaker 7: and Sherry Zigfoost Zigfoust.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the.
Speaker 7: Program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Robert Remington,
Speaker 7: thank you very much for agreeing to this program.
Speaker 5: Hey, thanks Dan, thanks for having us.
Speaker 7: Yes, I'm what is the status of Sherry? Is she
Speaker 7: going to call in as well?
Speaker 5: I believe she was scheduled to I know that she
Speaker 5: was on the West coast, so I don't know. I
Speaker 5: haven't seeneral day. I'm sorry, and I got tied up
Speaker 5: in traffick very late.
Speaker 7: Oh no, no problem, no problem at all. Well, let's
Speaker 7: start off until she does connect and we'll get her
Speaker 7: right on air and introduce her and get her to
Speaker 7: be answered some questions as well. Let me ask you personally, Robert,
Speaker 7: how did you become involved in this case and why
Speaker 7: did you personally decide to write about a book about
Speaker 7: this murdered trial.
Speaker 5: Well, we got involved in the case when the story
Speaker 5: broke down in Medicine Hat and you know, we had
Speaker 5: a report that three people were dead in a house
Speaker 5: and Sherry was the first one to go down. We
Speaker 5: first thought it was a what we in the business
Speaker 5: called a area domestic case, you know, a murder suicide,
Speaker 5: you know, father, distraught, father, whatever, and you know, so
Speaker 5: she went down there first and then immediately had found
Speaker 5: out that there was something bigger going on, that this
Speaker 5: twelve year old girl was missing, that the police were
Speaker 5: looking for her. And it just because just every day,
Speaker 5: you know, it just got deeper and deeper and more
Speaker 5: complex and more fascinating for us. And the reason we
Speaker 5: decided to write a book on it was it wasn't
Speaker 5: until you know, more than a year later. It was
Speaker 5: during her trial and we realized that this was a
Speaker 5: significant case. She this is going to be the youngest
Speaker 5: person ever convicted multiple homicide in Canada. And we decided,
Speaker 5: you know, somebody is going to be doing a book
Speaker 5: on it, and might as well be us, because we
Speaker 5: happen to know more about it than anyone else, especially myself.
Speaker 5: Unknown to me at the time of the murder, but
Speaker 5: I found out during the trial a friend of mine
Speaker 5: was also a friend of the victims, and so we
Speaker 5: had all these connections and all this information and we
Speaker 5: decided to go ahead with the book.
Speaker 7: That's great now. The story is set in a place
Speaker 7: called Medicine Had for our American friends here in our
Speaker 7: audience and for people that don't know in Medicine Had, Alberta.
Speaker 7: Where is this located in relation to say a city
Speaker 7: we might know, Calgary, Alberta. And what is the size
Speaker 7: of the city, what is the community known for what
Speaker 7: are the people like there?
Speaker 5: Really? Medicine Had as a prairie city south east of
Speaker 5: Calgary about three hours sort of near this Skatchland border.
Speaker 5: It's well, I guess, about thirty forty minutes from the
Speaker 5: Saskatchewan border. It's a very fascinating place. It's very very hot,
Speaker 5: ara dry summers. It has actually cactus that blooms, their
Speaker 5: small yellow cactuses deep coolies, you know, carved by the
Speaker 5: sort of wind and rain out of the prairie. And
Speaker 5: nearby is a World Heritage site called Dinosaur Provincial Park.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of hoodoos, so it has a very
Speaker 5: rich sort of descriptive quality about it. It is known
Speaker 5: primarily it sits on top of the largest or one
Speaker 5: of the largest natural gas fields in North America. Rudyard
Speaker 5: Kipling had visited this area in the early nineteen hundreds
Speaker 5: and he wrote that he saw all these flaming, you know,
Speaker 5: gas flares and everything, and he wrote that that the
Speaker 5: area had all hell for a basement, and because of
Speaker 5: all that, it was this Dante like kind of inferno.
Speaker 5: But we're we're, you know, part of driving the area.
Speaker 5: It actually had at one time it had gas fired
Speaker 5: street lights on this prairie city and they actually just
Speaker 5: kept them burning because gas was so cheap, you know,
Speaker 5: it was cheaper to let them burn than to pay,
Speaker 5: you know, civil employees go around and put them out.
Speaker 5: And today the city is about fifty five sixty thousand people.
Speaker 5: It's a oil and gas it's ranching. It is. There's
Speaker 5: a nearby military based Canadian Forces base that also a
Speaker 5: lot of British troops trained there. It's also near in
Speaker 5: Saskatchewan on the Saskatchewan Birder border. There's a place called
Speaker 5: Cypress Hill Supervincial Park. It's the only place in this
Speaker 5: section of North America that was untouched the ice age.
Speaker 5: So it's a you have this dry flat area and
Speaker 5: then these hills that are very lush and high and
Speaker 5: green and palm palm trees, pine trees. I'm sorry, so
Speaker 5: it's got this rich tapestry. It's a it's actually quite
Speaker 5: a fascinating place. A lot of old brick buildings downtown
Speaker 5: along the river valley, the so Saskatchewan River, and there's big,
Speaker 5: huge dogwood trees that grow there. And it has a
Speaker 5: lot of these brick buildings because it had a brick
Speaker 5: yard that was they had a rich depositive clay, and
Speaker 5: they had this abundance of natural gas, so they were
Speaker 5: able to fire the clay and build these bricks for
Speaker 5: all the prairie cities and across the emerging West, and
Speaker 5: so it had it's got these old kind of brick buildings. Downtown,
Speaker 5: it's kind of a neat little new town.
Speaker 7: So it's got of it's got a rich like you say,
Speaker 7: rich tapestry, but a rich history and as well as
Speaker 7: the certain affluence anyway, there's a certain success to the
Speaker 7: city itself.
Speaker 5: It's not hired in poverty as much. Yeah, No, it's
Speaker 5: it's you know, mainly I would say the working class,
Speaker 5: you know, upper you know, middle working class people, as
Speaker 5: as could be expected in a in a resource town,
Speaker 5: natural gas town. But there's also like any community, doctors, lawyers, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, small Uh, it is somewhat isolated because it's
Speaker 5: it's three and a half hours from the nearest big city,
Speaker 5: which is Calgary, and and then yeah, and then beyond
Speaker 5: that you get uh, you know, you go to Regina, Saskatchewan,
Speaker 5: and yeah, so it's it's uh out there. As as
Speaker 5: another author who wrote the book in True Blood described
Speaker 5: the town of Holcomb, Kansas, where that where that murder occurred.
Speaker 7: But let's get to the subject of the book or
Speaker 7: one of the subjects of the book, and that is
Speaker 7: a woman named JR.
Speaker 5: Obviously can't use her real name because of her age,
Speaker 5: especially hearing We're good in Canada by the Young of
Speaker 5: Youth Criminal Justice Act. Who can't name her?
Speaker 7: That's correct, right, One of the subjects of The Runaway
Speaker 7: Devil is a girl named JR.
Speaker 5: Like I said, and.
Speaker 7: I like to know who were her parents, What were
Speaker 7: parents like, what was their their backgrounds, and what was
Speaker 7: Jr's early family life growing up?
Speaker 5: Well, one of the odd things about this case is
Speaker 5: that we really don't know a lot about her years
Speaker 5: growing up because the people who can tell us here
Speaker 5: all Dad, that her mother, her father, her little brother.
Speaker 5: They were all murdered by JR. And her accomplice. So
Speaker 5: we can only garner, you know, secondhand and through my
Speaker 5: friend who is a friend of the family. The mom
Speaker 5: and dad met in Ontario. They were both from her
Speaker 5: near an area town called Sudbury, Ontario, and they had
Speaker 5: met there and they moved to Alberta to you know,
Speaker 5: in the mid early two thousand there was you know,
Speaker 5: huge boom going on in Alberta, large supplier of oil,
Speaker 5: the largest supply of oil in Alberta outside of Saudi
Speaker 5: Arabia and big oil boom going on, So Alberta at
Speaker 5: the time was a magnet for people from other places
Speaker 5: and they were drawn to Alberta. They first lived in
Speaker 5: a little town south of Calgary called Okato's and her
Speaker 5: dad Jr's dad, Mark, worked for a large gas company
Speaker 5: called in Cana, and they had a rough patch in
Speaker 5: their lives. Both of them had had done through UH
Speaker 5: counseling for substance abuse UH, but they were clean when
Speaker 5: they when they got married, and they were I I
Speaker 5: guess they were drawn together because they both had these
Speaker 5: backgrounds and and they they they had really overcome sort
Speaker 5: of those problems in their past, and they vowed to
Speaker 5: each other that they were going to live UH a
Speaker 5: you know, clean life, and they were going to be
Speaker 5: model parents, and they were going to raise their children
Speaker 5: as model parents. And and they were actually inspiration to others.
Speaker 5: A friend of mine UH Met Jr's mother UH Deborah
Speaker 5: through UH Alcoholics Anonymous M and narcotics anonymous, and Deborah
Speaker 5: was kind of a mentor and a real inspiration to
Speaker 5: UH to a lot of people who were struggling, and
Speaker 5: and she really worked hard to help people get off
Speaker 5: substance abuse issues. As far as we know, there was
Speaker 5: never any substance abuse in the home. There was never
Speaker 5: as far as we know, you know, no alcohol use.
Speaker 5: So they were described actually by friends and family and
Speaker 5: neighbors in uh his little town called lotos as a
Speaker 5: Norman Rockwell family, and Jr. Was a kind of you know,
Speaker 5: they went to a church and they were they were
Speaker 5: they were in school jar with a very smart girl.
Speaker 5: Her little brother, Jacob was born in this town called Otoes.
Speaker 5: And then Mark early worked hard, and he and he
Speaker 5: he bettered himself. He took a lot of classes and
Speaker 5: and he he got a job as an instrument technician
Speaker 5: at a gas plant near Medicine Hat. And he was
Speaker 5: bile accounts, a very diligent UH guy who was good
Speaker 5: with machines and tools and and UH was a problem solver.
Speaker 5: And he was a real asset to the UH, to
Speaker 5: the people he worked with, and to the operation of
Speaker 5: this key gas plant that was about forty five minutes
Speaker 5: outside of Medicine Had. And they felt when they moved
Speaker 5: to Medicine Had that they had really arrived. They had
Speaker 5: overcome a lot of struggles in life. They bought their
Speaker 5: first home together in this subdivision, and you know, kind
Speaker 5: of working middle class people in the area. And Jr. Was,
Speaker 5: you know, going to school. She was a very bright,
Speaker 5: smart student. She was on the swim club, She was
Speaker 5: an a student honorall student, went to a Catholic girls' school,
Speaker 5: and you know, things were going along well, and then
Speaker 5: things kind of went off the rails when she kind
Speaker 5: of the last half of the sixth grade for her,
Speaker 5: she started to go sideways. And how old was she
Speaker 5: at that time? She was eleven and a half and
Speaker 5: she had she was she was very mature her age
Speaker 5: when the physically pardon physically physically physically very mature when
Speaker 5: the when the crime occurred in the spring of two
Speaker 5: thousand and six, she was she was twelve and a
Speaker 5: half years old, and she did not look like twelve.
Speaker 5: She could easily pass for sixteen. She was physically mature,
Speaker 5: but at a just to back up a bit, at
Speaker 5: about age eleven and a half, grade six and a
Speaker 5: few other girls at their school, they started getting into
Speaker 5: sort of darker music and darker clothing and goth you know,
Speaker 5: goth lifestyle. And it was a Catholic school, very conservative,
Speaker 5: and and some of the other kids, you know, just
Speaker 5: were then not making fun of them, but they were
Speaker 5: sort of the outcasts. As one described, there was the
Speaker 5: they were the dark group, and the sort of goth
Speaker 5: these little goth kids and dressed in black and that
Speaker 5: sort of thing. But things weren't, you know, too bad.
Speaker 5: And it was when she came back to school in
Speaker 5: grade seventh grade that's when the counselors and the and
Speaker 5: the teachers started noticing.
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Speaker 5: You know a real darker PERSONA to her a dark clothing,
Speaker 5: short skirts, fishnecks, stockings, dark black lipstick, makeup. You know
Speaker 5: tears come down, you know, from her eyes and make
Speaker 5: up things like this. And in that summer between the
Speaker 5: sixth grade and the seventh grade, she had discovered social
Speaker 5: networking websites, and she started posting profiles of herself on
Speaker 5: a number of different sites, including one called Vampire Freaks,
Speaker 5: which is an industrial sort of goth website, kind of
Speaker 5: a faithbook or sorry Facebook of the of the goth
Speaker 5: industrial metal crowd. And and she met it was at
Speaker 5: that time that she started meeting some older males in
Speaker 5: the goth community in medicine had it and it was
Speaker 5: it was odd when I when I went down there
Speaker 5: to cover this case, I drove into town and here's
Speaker 5: this prairie conservative, prairie city, oil and gas workers, ranchers, cowboys,
Speaker 5: you know, military guys. And I had spot right away.
Speaker 5: There was these kids, these goth kids that I could see,
Speaker 5: you know, and they stood out, They really stood out
Speaker 5: in this in this community. And I and I to me,
Speaker 5: it was almost a throwback. I went, you know, and geez,
Speaker 5: I haven't seen any you know, goth kids walking around
Speaker 5: for a long time. And and she had. She was
Speaker 5: hanging around this a mall, typical mall, and a you know,
Speaker 5: typical city, and it was there that she had started
Speaker 5: to meet a couple of older guys from the goth community.
Speaker 5: A guy that went by the name of Raven, you know,
Speaker 5: he was really into the into the scene, and another
Speaker 5: guy by the name of trench Coat, and they were
Speaker 5: you know, eighteen nineteen, you know that age. She was twelve,
Speaker 5: but to them she was more like sixteen. You know,
Speaker 5: she never divulged her age. She was like fifteen. Girls
Speaker 5: tend to mature earlier than boys anyway, and I'm sure
Speaker 5: that she thought that the boys er age were you know,
Speaker 5: geeky and everything else, and on and on and on.
Speaker 5: So she started meeting these older males and they started
Speaker 5: calling and her parents then were getting concerned. I mean,
Speaker 5: their daughter was twelve years old and she was hanging
Speaker 5: out with these guys who were seventeen and eighteen, and
Speaker 5: so they had some concerns about it. And then the
Speaker 5: school had concerns because you know, she was started going
Speaker 5: through this rebellious stage and everything. But you know what
Speaker 5: was kind of interesting about her is you know, very smart,
Speaker 5: very intelligent. How they developed them and and I think
Speaker 5: she was you know, went through this natural rebelliousness, but
Speaker 5: she was also drawn to the artistic side of the
Speaker 5: goth culture, of the music, the poetry, the you know,
Speaker 5: that sort of brooding aspect to it. There's a very
Speaker 5: artistic side to the to the goth culture and and
Speaker 5: and she just kind of got into them. And then
Speaker 5: lo and behold one of the guys who sort of
Speaker 5: was on the periphery of the scene and coming into
Speaker 5: it was a guy. But then with Jeremy Allen Stinky.
Speaker 5: He was twenty one years old, and he he identified
Speaker 5: with the goth subculture as well because he came from
Speaker 5: the wrong side of the tracks. His mother was an alcoholic,
Speaker 5: he had a you know, there's a lot of abuse
Speaker 5: in his home, and and the goth community can be
Speaker 5: very accepting, non judgmental, and you know, and he was
Speaker 5: an outcast in his life. He was bullied, you know,
Speaker 5: and people made fun of his last name. His must
Speaker 5: name was Stinky, and the kids called him Stinky and
Speaker 5: they and they were you know, he had a he
Speaker 5: had a rough upbringing, rough life and and all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, you know, he found this this goth community
Speaker 5: that accepted him and and he also started posting profiles
Speaker 5: on Vampire Freaks and a couple other sites and and
Speaker 5: you know, and the and the thing about social networking
Speaker 5: websites is you can be anybody you want, you can,
Speaker 5: you know. She she pretended, you know, to be much
Speaker 5: older than she was. She had this kind of vixen
Speaker 5: like image, and she presented herself as being I think
Speaker 5: fifteen and and and Jeremy was also presenting himself. Oh
Speaker 5: that's sorry. She had one of her on one of
Speaker 5: her online names was Runaway Double, and Jeremy called himself
Speaker 5: sole Leader and and uh so they had these personas online.
Speaker 5: And with Jeremy, you know, for the first time in
Speaker 5: his life, he can actually be somebody. He was GoF,
Speaker 5: you know, guy that you know, and he found acceptance
Speaker 5: and and and he was a kind of a crazy
Speaker 5: wild and everybody described him as outgoing and vivacious and
Speaker 5: and he he he posted on his side and he
Speaker 5: bragged people that he was a three hundred year old
Speaker 5: ware wolf. He was part of a Lichen brotherhood and
Speaker 5: you know, and then they both wrote brooding poetry. So
Speaker 5: here was this guy twenty one years old from the
Speaker 5: wrong side of the tracks meets Jr. Middle class, smart,
Speaker 5: honor roll student at the mall, and you know, she's
Speaker 5: a middle class kid, and they sort of met, and
Speaker 5: Jeremy was sort of this everybody kind of looked up
Speaker 5: to him. He would do anything for anybody, and he
Speaker 5: would give him a shirt off their back, and he
Speaker 5: was just gregarious, kind of outgoing. And she was introduced
Speaker 5: to him by another girl from in that scene, and
Speaker 5: Jeremy had a green firebird and they went out in
Speaker 5: the parking lot and they did Wheely not Wheely's donuts
Speaker 5: and they call them in the parking lot and that
Speaker 5: sort of thing. And they kind of laughed and hung
Speaker 5: out and slowly they just started getting closer together. And
Speaker 5: when this story broke, you know, we were describing them
Speaker 5: as boyfriend girlfriend relationship, and people would say right to
Speaker 5: us and say, how can you say that the guy's
Speaker 5: a pedophile, she's twelve, he's twenty one. How can they
Speaker 5: be boyfriend girlfriend? And you know what people don't understand
Speaker 5: is that Jeremy was more like a fifteen year old.
Speaker 5: You know, he had the intellectual and physical maturity, and
Speaker 5: you know, he was immature. He was like a fifteen
Speaker 5: year old kid, and j R. Was like a fifteen
Speaker 5: or sixteen year old kid, because she was physically mature,
Speaker 5: she was advanced, she was smart, and they sort of
Speaker 5: met in the middle and it was it was like
Speaker 5: fire and gasoline coming together. And her parents, you know,
Speaker 5: didn't like the older guys she was hanging out with.
Speaker 7: Let me let me interrupt you for a second round.
Speaker 7: I want to go back just a little bit because
Speaker 7: I think it's really important as well, is that we've
Speaker 7: already had them meet, and there you've explained that they're
Speaker 7: both She's of a few years mature, more mature than
Speaker 7: she should be for her age, and he is far
Speaker 7: less mature than his age. So it works out pretty good.
Speaker 7: And I agree with you definitely on that. Let's go
Speaker 7: back a little bit though, too, when when there was
Speaker 7: the clothing infractions at school, and when she was sneaking
Speaker 7: out to go to punk concerts, and when her behavior changed,
Speaker 7: like you said, at the end of grade six and
Speaker 7: then into grade seven. Part of this story is, though,
Speaker 7: that are parents. You describe them as people that formerly
Speaker 7: had a little bit of trouble in their life, and
Speaker 7: I'm sure lots of those people try to overcompensate, like
Speaker 7: you say, and be really good parents and try to
Speaker 7: do everything they can for their kids and provide for
Speaker 7: them and try to prevent them making any of those
Speaker 7: same kind of mistakes. Now, what did the parents do
Speaker 7: initially in that from grade six to grade seven? Because
Speaker 7: I think it's important later in how they respond to
Speaker 7: when they find out about Jeremy stinky and involvement with
Speaker 7: their daughter. But before that, what did the parents do
Speaker 7: with Ja? How did they attempt to to try to
Speaker 7: change your behavior? And tell us a little bit about that,
Speaker 7: because I think it's important to this story.
Speaker 5: Well, you know from you know, from one if you
Speaker 5: look at it from one side of the equation, they
Speaker 5: were doing everything right. A lot of people say, be
Speaker 5: involved in your kids with your kids, know who their
Speaker 5: friends are, ask questions, you know, monitor their computer use,
Speaker 5: you know, and do all those things. And they started
Speaker 5: doing all that and they Jr. Had met before she
Speaker 5: met Jeremy, there was a guy that she met who
Speaker 5: was sixteen, and her mom wanted to you know, because
Speaker 5: he was older. He was she was twelve, he was sixteen.
Speaker 5: She wanted to meet him, you know, you know, they
Speaker 5: were trying to be good parents. She invited them over
Speaker 5: for tea Jr. This was the height of embarrassment for her,
Speaker 5: you know, to have you know, this guy come over
Speaker 5: and have her mom grill you know, in her opinion.
Speaker 5: But you know, she was just you know, trying to
Speaker 5: be a mom and trying to find out what the
Speaker 5: guy was about, and allowed him to go out. And
Speaker 5: he was kind of a clean cut, normal, you know,
Speaker 5: high school kid, you know, and I think her mom
Speaker 5: was concerned about his age. And as far as we
Speaker 5: know from both Jr. And both him, you know, they
Speaker 5: weren't intimate. They'd kind of hung out, but it didn't
Speaker 5: last very long, and it kind of broke off and
Speaker 5: she started getting more attracted to these older guys, and
Speaker 5: so her mom and dad were you know, trying to
Speaker 5: you know, learn more about who she was hanging out with,
Speaker 5: and she'd really didn't want to tell him. And there's
Speaker 5: another aspect to parenting. We're in an age of I
Speaker 5: think of hyper parenting, where there's moms and dads are
Speaker 5: called you know, helicopter moms that they're too close to
Speaker 5: their kids that they want to know, you know, they
Speaker 5: want to be so involve in their kids that they're
Speaker 5: not letting have the freedoms that we want that they
Speaker 5: want now We don't really know. If you know, Deborah
Speaker 5: was a helicopter mom. Was she being too overbearing or
Speaker 5: was she just doing the things right to JR? And
Speaker 5: Jr's point of view, you know, she wanted freedom. She thought,
Speaker 5: I'm growing up, I'm mature. What do you know? Mom.
Speaker 5: In fact, my friend who was a friend of the family,
Speaker 5: you know, said that, you know, JR. Would you know,
Speaker 5: say things like that to her mom and would say,
Speaker 5: you know, what do you know? And and you don't understand,
Speaker 5: you know, typical stuff like that. And so they were
Speaker 5: doing those those types of things, and they were, you know,
Speaker 5: trying to find out more, and they were having troubles,
Speaker 5: and they actually agreed and JR. Agreed to go to
Speaker 5: family counseling at one time. They decided they would all
Speaker 5: get together and try and you know, work some of
Speaker 5: these issues out. JR. Had been grounded at one time.
Speaker 5: Grounding to her parents was probably the right response. But
Speaker 5: it's very much kind of a nineteen fifties or nineteen
Speaker 5: sixties approach. I mean, kids today with internet and it's
Speaker 5: almost impossible to ground them. You know, they were monitoring
Speaker 5: their computer use, but she would just go use the
Speaker 5: computers at school and you know, communicate with some of
Speaker 5: these older guys and that sort of stuff. So they
Speaker 5: were doing those sorts of things, and then Jeremy came
Speaker 5: on the same and then the hammer really came down
Speaker 5: on her. They become quite strict.
Speaker 7: Did they find out initially how old he really was, though, Like,
Speaker 7: I mean, you could say whatever you want about maturity
Speaker 7: being matched, but the simple fact is their daughter's twelve, idiot,
Speaker 7: This idiot is twenty one or twenty two.
Speaker 5: I don't think they knew his age. The fact some
Speaker 5: of her friends, you know, even didn't believe he was
Speaker 5: like twenty one. Some of her friends didn't like them.
Speaker 7: But certainly they certainly knew there was a gap of
Speaker 7: six or seven years there.
Speaker 5: They knew, They knew that, they knew there was a
Speaker 5: gap for sure. And you know, and Jeremy, they they
Speaker 5: had they had cracked dad. They had when she started
Speaker 5: going with Jeremy and he was calling and they weren't
Speaker 5: sure who the boys were that were calling, and they
Speaker 5: just knew that stuff was going wrong, and she was
Speaker 5: going to these punk shows on the weekend, and and
Speaker 5: and and to their credit, they actually they had grounded
Speaker 5: her one time and said you know, no, you know,
Speaker 5: you're you're you're going off the rails. And then they
Speaker 5: went to counseling, and then they agreed to let her
Speaker 5: go to one of these punk shows. They were held
Speaker 5: in community halls and and you know, golf, metal bands
Speaker 5: and stuff like that. And they actually agreed to go
Speaker 5: with her to one of these shows just to find
Speaker 5: out what it was all about. And the again, to JR.
Speaker 5: This would have been the height of embarrassment for her,
Speaker 5: but you know, they they didn't. They weren't chaperoning. They
Speaker 5: just wanted to go and hang out. And they went
Speaker 5: with you know, a couple of her friends and her,
Speaker 5: and they said, okay, I mean she was twelve, and
Speaker 5: so you know, it's it's yeah, it's not unreasonable for
Speaker 5: her parents. I mean, they rode motorcycles, you know, they
Speaker 5: were you know, kind of cool parents, you know, the
Speaker 5: one respect. So they went to this pump show with
Speaker 5: her and and you know, they were just kind of
Speaker 5: walking around on the fringes and she kind of disappeared,
Speaker 5: and then they ran into one of her friends and
Speaker 5: they said, whre's Jr. And they said, well, I don't know,
Speaker 5: and they said, well, so they decided to go look for.
Speaker 5: They went on into the alley behind this community hall,
Speaker 5: and they saw her and Jeremy making out in the
Speaker 5: in the the alleyway, but behind and and Jeremy. Have
Speaker 5: to understand, Jeremy was a how do you have to describe?
Speaker 5: I have to describe what do you look like? He
Speaker 5: had kind of short spiked hair, gold dark eyeline, sort
Speaker 5: of blondish spiky hair short. He had dark eyeliner that
Speaker 5: he wore around his eyes. He always wore hoodies, black hoodies,
Speaker 5: fishnet stockings on his hand wristbands, and he often wore
Speaker 5: a mask, a cold weather neopren mask with the hoodie
Speaker 5: pulled up and all that. He was a fierce looking person.
Speaker 5: You know, no eyebrows too as well. I see from
Speaker 5: the photo. I'm not sure about the eyebrows.
Speaker 7: He's definitely described the He's a very freaky looking, dangerous
Speaker 7: looking dude.
Speaker 5: For sure. He was a dangerous looking dude. I just
Speaker 5: have to refresh my memory of the gentleman. I'm just
Speaker 5: gonna flip to.
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Speaker 5: Oh and hey, Worthies neckerchiefs as well around his around
Speaker 5: his you know, see he was he was kind of
Speaker 5: a serious looking dude. And then the comps knew him
Speaker 5: quite well and they stopped him. He had this firebird
Speaker 5: new tool around and it's but he was driving down
Speaker 5: the street with his neopreme mask on over his face
Speaker 5: and his hoodie up in the middle of summer, and
Speaker 5: you know, they they're going, you know, and he would
Speaker 5: he would walk into a mall like that, and the
Speaker 5: mall security would come up to him and say, you know, hey, buddy,
Speaker 5: you know, lose the face mask. You know, what do
Speaker 5: you what are you up to? Right? And so anyway,
Speaker 5: so they walk into the alleyway and they see their
Speaker 5: twelve year old guy with his obvious you know, older
Speaker 5: looking he was either you know, a man, but you know,
Speaker 5: he could have been maybe eighteen or something to them,
Speaker 5: you know, and and her mom and dad were really mad,
Speaker 5: and Jeremy took off one way down the alley and
Speaker 5: her mom and dad grabbed JR. They took her home,
Speaker 5: and they were seething mad by now because they you know,
Speaker 5: saw what was going on. And that's when the hammer
Speaker 5: came down. They'd groaned to grounded her. They took out,
Speaker 5: took accord to this is according to JR. They took
Speaker 5: her computer away, they boxed it up, They you know,
Speaker 5: took her music out of her room. I mean, according
Speaker 5: to her, they really really cracked down and you know,
Speaker 5: just really monitoring her and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5: And that's when she really started, you know, to lose it.
Speaker 5: And you know, boxing up the computer was no obstacle
Speaker 5: for her because she would just go to the to
Speaker 5: the school, to the local library, and she would communicate
Speaker 5: with Jeremy online. And they started sending messages back and
Speaker 5: forth about how evil my parents are. And that's when
Speaker 5: they started talking about, you know, what to do with
Speaker 5: Jarr's mom and dad.
Speaker 7: Now you haven't talked a little too much about Jeremy
Speaker 7: Stinky his situation. Where's his father in this situation? What's
Speaker 7: his mother?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 7: The other situation is is it just the music that
Speaker 7: she's drawn to and Jeremy's involved with the music the
Speaker 7: goth subculture here or is there some drugs involved and
Speaker 7: there is what kind of drugs are we talking about?
Speaker 7: And how serious are these guys and they're involvement with drugs.
Speaker 5: Jeremy was a pothead, you know, they drank the alcohol
Speaker 5: I think was a bigger part of their scene. And
Speaker 5: there are a lot of these kids that they hung
Speaker 5: her out with, you know, And I should explain here
Speaker 5: Jeremy wasn't really true goth, what you'd call true goth.
Speaker 5: You know, there was a there was a girl we
Speaker 5: talked to who was an older girl, older you know,
Speaker 5: young woman who said, you know, goth isn't something that
Speaker 5: you just do to make your parents mad when you're fourteen.
Speaker 5: It's a it's a lifestyle choice. And the goth subculture
Speaker 5: itself is you know, non is generally non violent, accepting
Speaker 5: there's a lower rate of violence in the goth community
Speaker 5: than there is in the general community. It's very artistic,
Speaker 5: it's brooding, it's a look you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: It was a goth came about as a as a
Speaker 5: backlash to the to the sort of you know, you know,
Speaker 5: nineteen early eighties boy band music and all that, you
Speaker 5: know kind of stuff. And I actually found, you know,
Speaker 5: most of the goth kids you know to be you know,
Speaker 5: pretty neat, you know, pretty interesting. You know, this guy
Speaker 5: like Raven, he was this brooding, artistic, you know that
Speaker 5: sort of thing. And but Jeremy, you know, he adopted
Speaker 5: he was his own version of goth. He was it
Speaker 5: was more of a violent edgy, you know. And and
Speaker 5: and you know, people who are true goths, you know,
Speaker 5: really would would say, you know, he's got nothing to
Speaker 5: do with the goth subculture lifestyle. He was just an angry, brooding,
Speaker 5: you know young man and his the guys that he
Speaker 5: hung out with were you know, they were alcoholics at
Speaker 5: you know, fifteen sixteen. They smoked a lot of pot.
Speaker 5: Jeremy had you know, done some cocaine. You know, mainly
Speaker 5: they were big boozers and getting into trouble and uh,
Speaker 5: you know petty he had some you know petty crimes
Speaker 5: and uh, you know, bad checks and stuff like that,
Speaker 5: and some some minor you know things with the law,
Speaker 5: but never anything that serious. But and you know, his music,
Speaker 5: they were into this you know, death metal, death metal
Speaker 5: music and a number of different bands and uh and
Speaker 5: and it was it was very dark, and it was
Speaker 5: very you know, they kind of felt the world was
Speaker 5: against him j R. Herself. You know, I don't think
Speaker 5: that she did much drugs and alcohol and you know,
Speaker 5: so you know, Jeremy and Jeremy had come you know,
Speaker 5: if we could just talk about his background and in
Speaker 5: a way, you know, our book is is somewhat sympathetic
Speaker 5: to him because you can understand why where he was
Speaker 5: coming from. He he was his mother was an alcoholic.
Speaker 5: His father, according to the testimony, his natural father was
Speaker 5: very abusive. His mother. You know, there was violence in
Speaker 5: the home his his mother then you know, divorced, and
Speaker 5: she she had a you know, number of men that
Speaker 5: would come and go, and they were you know, abusive
Speaker 5: as well. Jeremy describes, you know, being abused by you know,
Speaker 5: several of his stepfathers and got into a fight with
Speaker 5: one of them. And and you know, and his mom
Speaker 5: moved around a lot, and they were they kind of lived,
Speaker 5: you know, what he described as the slums of medicine
Speaker 5: hat down by the railroad tracks. And and you know,
Speaker 5: his mom was from a small town in Saskatchewan. She
Speaker 5: came to Alberta, and you know, she was a hairdresser.
Speaker 5: She took you know, beauty you know classes and things
Speaker 5: like that, and but you know, she and she was
Speaker 5: she also had she has a terminal lung disease, right,
Speaker 5: and you know, so his his whole upbringing was just
Speaker 5: it was just rough and in in a way you
Speaker 5: can understand, you know, what happened to him because it
Speaker 5: was Jr. Is a little harder to comprehend because she
Speaker 5: came from the other side of the tracks. But the
Speaker 5: one thing as well, they had both gone through kind
Speaker 5: of breakups at the time when they got together. Jr.
Speaker 5: Had gone with this you know, kind of wholesome sixteen
Speaker 5: year old and that kind of went bad. And Jeremy
Speaker 5: had broken up with a girl as well. And so
Speaker 5: they came together at this time when they were both
Speaker 5: seeking something. And Jeremy more than anything in the world,
Speaker 5: he wanted to be loved. You know, he didn't have
Speaker 5: that at home, he didn't have it at school. And
Speaker 5: he found this you know, smart, pretty young girl that
Speaker 5: he thought he believed was fifteen or fourteen. You know,
Speaker 5: he thought she was legal quote unquote, because in Canada
Speaker 5: at the time, fourteen was a you know, a legal
Speaker 5: age of sexual consent. It since then raised to sixteen mercifully. Yea,
Speaker 5: in my opinion was fourteen I was absurd, you know, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5: I mean sex is a very powerful, powerful drug at
Speaker 5: that age. And so Jeremy met Jr. And you know,
Speaker 5: all these things came together, and Stinky was you know,
Speaker 5: he was desperate to be loved. You could see that
Speaker 5: in you know, his friends. He would do anything for
Speaker 5: its friends. He would he would drive through the night
Speaker 5: and pick them up, and he would drive them to
Speaker 5: you know, some town, you know, two hundred miles away
Speaker 5: to go to a punk show and stuff like that
Speaker 5: and give people the shirt off their back and on
Speaker 5: and on and on. But you know, he had this
Speaker 5: edge to them, and he he fantasized about being a
Speaker 5: member of the Lichen Brotherhood, this three hundred year old werewolf.
Speaker 5: And he met this one guy and one time he
Speaker 5: told this guy, he says, I wouldn't go for a
Speaker 5: walk by the river on the full moon. And the
Speaker 5: guy says, what do you mean? He says, well, we'll
Speaker 5: kill you and eat you, you know, and it was
Speaker 5: stuff like that, you know, now, is it k problem? Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean he played the role anyway. He played the role.
Speaker 5: I don't think he actually believed it.
Speaker 7: But now now let's get to the heart of this,
Speaker 7: because this is just incredible part of your book. It
Speaker 7: is the core of your book. It's just fascinating. How
Speaker 7: did this really in your investigation? Who started it? We know,
Speaker 7: we'll say right now that he was bragging about what
Speaker 7: he could do, potentially what he could do, you know,
Speaker 7: the whole god scene. Like you say, it's the artistic
Speaker 7: end of it of people talking more bid conversations or
Speaker 7: poet dark poetry, the death metal. Nobody's taking this seriously
Speaker 7: and going on and murdering anybody. But they're listening to
Speaker 7: Cannibal Corpse and bands like this, so it's you know,
Speaker 7: it's very serious music, but nobody takes it too serious. Now,
Speaker 7: tell us what the correspondence was, how this started, What
Speaker 7: exactly was said, because that's what you do, including your book.
Speaker 7: What was really said by JR to Jeremy Stinky and
Speaker 7: what did he say.
Speaker 5: Back to give us that? Please? Well, one of another
Speaker 5: us why we wrote the book. One of the reasons
Speaker 5: that we wrote the book is because even after she
Speaker 5: was convicted, there were people who said, oh, oh, she
Speaker 5: was just a poor little lamb who has led us
Speaker 5: stray by the big bad wolf, right, And that's what
Speaker 5: I wanted to believe. I mean, she's twilved. I desperately
Speaker 5: wanted to believe that she was just an innocent kid
Speaker 5: led astray. But when you start looking into it, it's
Speaker 5: clear that she was the mastermind. And she kept writing
Speaker 5: to Jeremy and saying, you know, will you kill them?
Speaker 5: Will you kill my parents? You know, we have to
Speaker 5: come up with a plan. And she had written one
Speaker 5: email and said, you know, I have this plan. It
Speaker 5: begins with us killing them and it ends up with
Speaker 5: me living with you. And they fantasized about running away
Speaker 5: to Germany and living in a castle. I mean, it
Speaker 5: was just ridiculous, right. And he wrote back and he
Speaker 5: said to her, while I love your plan, but we
Speaker 5: have to get more creative and stuff. And it was
Speaker 5: the the you know, kids today think the internet is this.
Speaker 5: You know, I don't know what they think, but nothing
Speaker 5: on the internet is private. Your emails aren't private. Now
Speaker 5: the computer forensics guys from the police department found all
Speaker 5: of these messages or reams of them, and she was
Speaker 5: writing back and forth and encouraging, you know, okay, you know,
Speaker 5: and she kept saying, you know, will you kill them?
Speaker 5: Are you going to kill them for me? Come on, Jeremy,
Speaker 5: you know, things like this, and and according to her testimony,
Speaker 5: she said, olways, just talk. You know, I really didn't
Speaker 5: mean for it to happen. But other people overheard these
Speaker 5: things and and you know, they didn't believe it any either.
Speaker 5: They thought it was, you know, just talk. But there
Speaker 5: was a real key piece of evidence that you know,
Speaker 5: when when when the police showed up. If we can
Speaker 5: just explain what happened, there was on it was April.
Speaker 5: It was an April night in two thousand and six,
Speaker 5: and JR had been you know, tal They had been
Speaker 5: talking about the plan and how would we do it?
Speaker 5: And if we did kill them, how would we do it?
Speaker 5: And they talk about stabbing or drowning or poisoning them,
Speaker 5: or setting the house on fire and all this kind
Speaker 5: of stuff, and it all came to a head, you know,
Speaker 5: on this April night, Jeremy was you know, JR. Was
Speaker 5: grounded Jeremy had gone to a punk show and with
Speaker 5: some friends of his and they're all drinking in his
Speaker 5: mom's trailer and they drank all his booze and then
Speaker 5: they went into the refrigerator and drank all her booze
Speaker 5: and smoke some pot and on and on and on.
Speaker 5: And then Jeremy was watching the movie Natural Born Killers.
Speaker 5: They thought it was the best love story of all time.
Speaker 5: Well that you know, somebody would you know, do something,
Speaker 5: and he fat, you know, in that movie, it's a
Speaker 5: girl who's you know, in an abuse of her mom
Speaker 5: and her dad, especially as a bad tour and that
Speaker 5: sort of thing, and and so he decides, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm going to rescue her and he ends up killing
Speaker 5: the family and they go off and they go on
Speaker 5: a killing and he had written a NEMO saying, yeah,
Speaker 5: well we've Jane Arb been talking about we're going to
Speaker 5: do it this weekend and it's going to be just
Speaker 5: like Natural Born Killers, and we're gonna start a killing
Speaker 5: spirit across Canada. Right. Well, they all say it was
Speaker 5: just talk. Really didn't mean for it to happen, but JR.
Speaker 5: This night ered, Sorry, JR is grounded. Jeremy's and his
Speaker 5: months trailers drinking. They're brooding about the whole situation. This
Speaker 5: has been going on for a couple of months now,
Speaker 5: and they've been kept apart and they're sneaking out trying
Speaker 5: to see each other. They had she had stuck out
Speaker 5: of the house, the house very cleverly. One time they
Speaker 5: had sex, and you know, and things had gotten to ahead,
Speaker 5: and he was watching this movie Natural Born Killers with
Speaker 5: some friends and there was a point in the movie
Speaker 5: where he said to one of the witnesses who testified
Speaker 5: the point in the movie where the family is killed
Speaker 5: and they spare the little brother, and he said, well,
Speaker 5: that's where it's going to be different, because JR. Is
Speaker 5: going to kill her little brother. Well, and that in
Speaker 5: fact ended up what ended up happening. Now, if that
Speaker 5: wasn't discussed, planned and advanced, why would he have said that?
Speaker 5: Her brother was an eight year old boy. His name
Speaker 5: was Jacob. He was into Star Wars and you know,
Speaker 5: he thought he was a little Jedi knight and he
Speaker 5: had a little typical little eight year old boy. And
Speaker 5: Jeremy's watching the movie. Your friends are there, people start
Speaker 5: to disperse. He gets a call from JR. And we
Speaker 5: don't know what was said in that conversation because people
Speaker 5: in the other room only heard bits and pieces. But
Speaker 5: after he gets the call, he leaves and he goes
Speaker 5: out into the night, and he and he had asked friends.
Speaker 5: He had asked a couple of friends, will you help
Speaker 5: me with this? Because he didn't think he could do
Speaker 5: it himself. He asked a former roommate of his, and
Speaker 5: he asked a friend of his, and they both said,
Speaker 5: you're crazy, man. You know, you're insane, and what are
Speaker 5: you doing running around with twelve year old girl, you know,
Speaker 5: and get your act together and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 7: But he told me he was going to murder the
Speaker 7: whole family.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, they were gonna murder. They were talking, you
Speaker 5: know at that time, the mom and dad, and you know,
Speaker 5: he said, and he said, will you help me with it?
Speaker 5: You know, we're gonna kill them. I can't remember if
Speaker 5: they you know, I had mentioned the little brother as well.
Speaker 5: But all his friends told him, no, you're absolutely nuts,
Speaker 5: so you know, I'm not going to do that. But
Speaker 5: they never went to the police, you know. They always thought, oh,
Speaker 5: it's Jeremy, it's just being crazy, you know. So he
Speaker 5: gets this call from Jr. Whatever it said that night
Speaker 5: sets things into motion, and he heads out into the night.
Speaker 5: In this April evening, it's kind of drizzling. He goes
Speaker 5: over to a friend's house, does a lot of cocaine,
Speaker 5: and they had he had been drinking all day long
Speaker 5: and they had drunk you know, beer and booze and
Speaker 5: smoked a lot of pot. And then he goes over
Speaker 5: this other guy's place who was a small time coke
Speaker 5: dealer and user. And he goes over to his place
Speaker 5: and they drink coke and then they drink wine, and
Speaker 5: and he had asked this guy, he says, how do
Speaker 5: you clean blood off? And knives no, you know, stuff
Speaker 5: like that. And they, you know, people were half stone
Speaker 5: and know what's going on. JR. Then go leaves or
Speaker 5: not JR. Jeremy leaves that place. It's about now three
Speaker 5: thirty four o'clock in the morning. He is higher than
Speaker 5: a kite. He goes over to a local all night
Speaker 5: grocery store. He buys some gum because JR. Didn't like
Speaker 5: him smoking cigarettes and smoking pot and he can she
Speaker 5: could smell it on his breast, so he'd buy some gum.
Speaker 5: And then he goes over to the house, and he's
Speaker 5: got his hoodie on, he's got his black neoprem mask,
Speaker 5: he's got the fishnet armstockings, and he had a knife.
Speaker 5: He was he always he said he always carried a
Speaker 5: knife for protection because he was bullied as a little kid,
Speaker 5: and all of his friends sort of carried knives. It
Speaker 5: was part of the you know, the the accoutrements of
Speaker 5: their scene. Right, So he throws a pebble letter window.
Speaker 5: She motions for him to come around to the back.
Speaker 5: He goes around to the back window, goes in, and
Speaker 5: her mom hears this noise and she comes downstairs, and
Speaker 5: according to the testimony Jeremy he insists that he didn't
Speaker 5: go into the house that night to kill anybody. He
Speaker 5: just wanted to scare them, take her out of there.
Speaker 5: They would run away, go to their castle in Germany.
Speaker 5: He says he sees her mom come down into the basement.
Speaker 5: It was a three level, four level split. She comes down,
Speaker 5: cheers this noise, and he says, I just freaked and
Speaker 5: he started stabbing her. You can imagine what the mom
Speaker 5: seeing this guy in a black hoodie and a black
Speaker 5: miirpremum mask, dark eyeliners. You know, he would have been
Speaker 5: a ferocious sight and Jerry pie and cocaine. He was
Speaker 5: on Boozy was on the pot and he just started
Speaker 5: stabbing and stabbing and stabbing. And then the dad came
Speaker 5: down and heard this, and there was a ferocious fight
Speaker 5: between him and Mark and I can't let's see he
Speaker 5: had Deborah had twelve stab wounds. Mark had twenty four
Speaker 5: stab wounds right, blood all over the basement. It was
Speaker 5: just an awful, awful scene. And um, after he finished,
Speaker 5: he walked upstairs dragging his bloody sleeves, bloody closers, blood
Speaker 5: streaks on the walls. When the police came in, and
Speaker 5: he goes upstairs, and that's where it gets murky. Jr.
Speaker 5: Is doing something to her little brother. The testimony is conflicting.
Speaker 5: Jeremy insists that Jr. Was stabbing her little brother. She
Speaker 5: insists that Jr. She admits that she stabbed her little
Speaker 5: brother there once, but not very hard quote unquote, and
Speaker 5: that Jeremy was the one who go to her into
Speaker 5: doing it. And and then she claims that Jeremy finished
Speaker 5: him off. After the murders, Jeremy goes downstairs. He's pacing
Speaker 5: wildly back and forth in the in the house. So
Speaker 5: I got to get out of here. I got he's paranoid,
Speaker 5: he's on todd he's on coke. And and Jared says, well,
Speaker 5: just wait a minute, I got to collect a few things.
Speaker 5: So she nonchalantly goes upstairs, starts getting a few things together,
Speaker 5: does some clean up. Jeremy can't stand it. He rub
Speaker 5: boats out of the house, runs into his car, drives away,
Speaker 5: vomits on the side of the road, drives over to
Speaker 5: his you know, back to his mom's trailer. His mom's
Speaker 5: not there. She's never there. She's out on a bender.
Speaker 5: Jared comes down. There's no no Jeremy. He's abandoned her,
Speaker 5: you know. And and and so she's she calls the
Speaker 5: and she says, where are you? And he says, get
Speaker 5: over here, you know, right away, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: And so she calls a cab, books the cab for
Speaker 5: you know, come pick me up in thirty minutes, takes
Speaker 5: her mom's bank card, goes to the little seven eleven
Speaker 5: grocery store all night store, takes some money out of
Speaker 5: her mom's account, comes back, gets in the cab, goes
Speaker 5: to Jeremy. So in court, you can imagine how this
Speaker 5: played out. Well, jeez, you didn't. You didn't have a plan,
Speaker 5: but you went back to the to the man who
Speaker 5: just butchered your mom and dad, and you know what
Speaker 5: were you doing? Well?
Speaker 7: What else did they do as well? I mean it
Speaker 7: gets a little worse than that. I mean they didn't
Speaker 7: just get together and then try to cover up their tracks.
Speaker 7: Tell us what they did, dad, he'll insult injury after they.
Speaker 5: Well, so they go over. She goes over to Jeremy's
Speaker 5: trailer and they have post murder sex. This is not
Speaker 5: uncommon for Team Killers. That happens. And then they they
Speaker 5: decide to h They go back to the to the
Speaker 5: place where where Jeremy had done the cocaine a few
Speaker 5: hours earlier. They grabbed a little bit of sleep. But
Speaker 5: then they decide that they're going to go to a party. Uh.
Speaker 5: Jeremy has a black eye from the fight with with
Speaker 5: her dad. Uh, he's got a pair of dark sunglasses on.
Speaker 5: They go to this party and you know, with Jeremy's
Speaker 5: buddies is it is The place is just a party house,
Speaker 5: an animal house. It's just a pig's die, It's a
Speaker 5: I drove by the place a couple of times it's
Speaker 5: a you know, four plex, you know, and there's you know,
Speaker 5: an old chair that's been thrown off the balcony, and
Speaker 5: there's you know, broken beer bottles all over. And go
Speaker 5: to this party and everybody's drinking. And at a party
Speaker 5: which is less than a mile from the house where
Speaker 5: the murders were committed. I mean, they were either so
Speaker 5: brazen or so stupid that you know, they they they
Speaker 5: have this, They go to this party, they're they're cuddling
Speaker 5: on the couch, they're making out. You know, people testified that,
Speaker 5: you know, in fact, a lot of There was one
Speaker 5: girl at a young young woman, teenager, she had out
Speaker 5: to child. She was a single mom. She had gone
Speaker 5: back to that place that day she wanted to. It
Speaker 5: was her exterit the father of her child, that sort
Speaker 5: of owned the place. He was a notorious and drunk
Speaker 5: and alcoholic, had been in jail the night before. She
Speaker 5: was actually put off by you know, they were you know,
Speaker 5: groping each other on the couch that she had to
Speaker 5: leave the room right And they didn't know that any
Speaker 5: murders had gone on. And and but Jeremy had this
Speaker 5: black eye and he would he kept you know, lifting
Speaker 5: his dark glasses and showing his friends as big shiner.
Speaker 5: You know, it was a badge of courage. And finally
Speaker 5: he told one of his best friends what had happened,
Speaker 5: and he said, well, we did it, and he said
Speaker 5: you did what? And he said, we gutted them like fish.
Speaker 5: And the guy said, you guys are crazy. I'm getting
Speaker 5: out of here, right and he left. And how they
Speaker 5: say about the little brother. Then they added something up
Speaker 5: a little brother, Oh yes, yeah, and the he jared
Speaker 5: they were down in a bedroom and they ever he's drinking.
Speaker 5: This party was going on, and Jeremy says to his frind,
Speaker 5: he says, we gutted them like fish, and Jr. Without
Speaker 5: any prompting, says, yeah, my little brother gargled because his
Speaker 5: throat had been cut. And the guy said, you guys
Speaker 5: are crazy. I'm getting out of here. And I didn't
Speaker 5: even know if he even believed them at that time.
Speaker 5: So anyway, eventually the party winds down and now it's
Speaker 5: starting to get evening. The bodies were discovered at about
Speaker 5: one point thirty in the afternoon. By now it's all over,
Speaker 5: you know, starting to break on the news and everything
Speaker 5: like that, and they're starting to get nervous, and Jr.
Speaker 5: And Jeremy are then spirited out of town by another
Speaker 5: friend of Jeremy's and they'd drive to a little town
Speaker 5: called Leader, Saskatchewan. They spend the night shivering in the car.
Speaker 5: It's cold, it's the Canadian prairie, it's a springtime. They
Speaker 5: were low on gas. They were in this truck. Jr.
Speaker 5: And Jeremy slept in the back of the truck. Three
Speaker 5: other girls were in the front. They were all huddling
Speaker 5: and cold. And in the morning they didn't have any gas.
Speaker 5: All the gas stations were closed.
Speaker 2: So they.
Speaker 5: Park and you know, just outside of town, and then
Speaker 5: the sun starts coming up. They turn on the car
Speaker 5: and they'd drive to a gas station. And there was
Speaker 5: a very smart young rookie arshy and p officer who
Speaker 5: had had the all points bulletin that some people in
Speaker 5: a in a car, in this vehicle they had a
Speaker 5: description might be coming to this community. And and the
Speaker 5: the the reason they they knew this because all the
Speaker 5: all these kids who had been at this party and
Speaker 5: then new Jeremy and it was new of all this talk.
Speaker 5: All of a sudden see on the news that these
Speaker 5: murders had happened, and and and uh. And to their credit,
Speaker 5: they came forward to the police, and they were disturbed
Speaker 5: by it. They were shocked, you know, all of a
Speaker 5: sudden they realized it wasn't just talk my god, it
Speaker 5: really happened. So they had a description of the vehicle.
Speaker 5: They had gone to the school, you know, to find out. Oh,
Speaker 5: the the real interesting thing is when the when the
Speaker 5: cops showed up at the house. They find the bodies,
Speaker 5: the mom and dad, the little brother. But there's a
Speaker 5: picture on the of the family sitting on the coffee table,
Speaker 5: and there's a girl in the picture and she's missing,
Speaker 5: and they think, my god, where is she? We missed
Speaker 5: a body relock. They can't find her, and they think, well,
Speaker 5: where is she? They think it's going to be horrible
Speaker 5: if she comes home and sees this mess. We have
Speaker 5: to find this girl. And they found out that she
Speaker 5: was a member of a swim team. Maybe she was
Speaker 5: away in a swim need They go to the school
Speaker 5: to try and find lists of her friends so they
Speaker 5: can start calling. Because they were under the impression that
Speaker 5: she had been abducted maybe or was away. They weren't
Speaker 5: sure what was going on. They go into her locker
Speaker 5: and find a very disturbing drawing that she had made
Speaker 5: of stick drawing, a ten panel cartoon of the family
Speaker 5: being burned alive. And there was a mom, a dad,
Speaker 5: a little boy, well a little figure, stick figure, and
Speaker 5: then there was another stick figure off to the side,
Speaker 5: laughing and then running off with another stick figure. In
Speaker 5: the distance, there was this crudely drawn truck and it
Speaker 5: was labeled Jeremy's truck. And the police officer saw this
Speaker 5: and went, oh, my god. And on the flip side
Speaker 5: of it was a poem that she had written, and
Speaker 5: it was, you know, may who burn in the eternal
Speaker 5: flames of Hell or something like that. And he knew,
Speaker 5: he knew right away. Oh, you know, she's not an
Speaker 5: innocent little hole. She hasn't been a duck that this
Speaker 5: implicates her in the murder boom, you know. And the
Speaker 5: chase is on. And so this RCMP officer in this
Speaker 5: little town called Leader, Saskatchewan gets the you know, information
Speaker 5: that this truck me and on a hunch, he thinks, well,
Speaker 5: I wonder if they're gonna need gas, And so he
Speaker 5: he drives around all night, you know, not doesn't see anything.
Speaker 5: So he goes home gets a couple hours sleep, and
Speaker 5: then he comes back in his own vehicle and decides
Speaker 5: to park by the gas station and lo and behold boom,
Speaker 5: you know, the vehicle pulls up Alberta license plates. Three
Speaker 5: girls get out of the front walk in, and he goes, oh,
Speaker 5: you know, and they're matching the description. They drive away.
Speaker 5: He calls for backup. They pull onto this school yard.
Speaker 5: They don't know where they're going and what they're going
Speaker 5: to do. And they had gone into the store and
Speaker 5: they saw this, this picture of the house on the
Speaker 5: front page of the Medicine had news with forensics investigators
Speaker 5: bringing bodies out of the house, and Jr. And Jeremy,
Speaker 5: you know, we're reading it, reading the paper, you know,
Speaker 5: and pointing at it and pointing out errors in the
Speaker 5: story and all that kind of stuff. And still their
Speaker 5: friends believed that, you know, believed them that they didn't
Speaker 5: do it, you know that, you know, for some reason.
Speaker 5: And then and then and then one of them finally
Speaker 5: twig and said, like, you know, we got to get
Speaker 5: you guys out of here. You know, they think you're guilty.
Speaker 5: We got to get you out out. So they drive away.
Speaker 5: This cop is following and he calls for backup. They
Speaker 5: pull over into this school yard. The police around the vehicle,
Speaker 5: get the three girls out of the front. They opened
Speaker 5: up the back and there's jam Jeremy in the back
Speaker 5: and the gig was how they they were arrested in
Speaker 5: charge with three counts of first of your murder. Now
Speaker 5: we don't have very much time.
Speaker 7: We've just got about a minute here. So basically, I
Speaker 7: just want to tell people that the trial is a
Speaker 7: very fascinating part of your book as well. It's you know,
Speaker 7: this is I got to I got to commend you
Speaker 7: on a great book.
Speaker 5: It's a great story to start off with.
Speaker 7: But you've really written this really well, and I suggest
Speaker 7: anybody who's listened to this interview to pick up this book,
Speaker 7: Runaway Devil, Robert Remington, Sherry Zigfous a great, great story
Speaker 7: and very well written, and I think you're gonna have
Speaker 7: a lot of success with this book. It's just a
Speaker 7: fascinating story and you really draw everybody in. So I
Speaker 7: want to thank you for greening this interview too, Robert.
Speaker 5: So now I thank you very much. And kind of
Speaker 5: one of the scary things about this is then she's
Speaker 5: going to be out of jail, in a little over
Speaker 5: a year. And because she was, you know, a young offender,
Speaker 5: so they were restricted as to how much time they
Speaker 5: could give her. And she's going to be back out
Speaker 5: in the communit no time.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, another scary thing too, is how long
Speaker 7: will he be in jail in Canada? With Canadian laws?
Speaker 5: For me, he'll be in for a minimum of twenty
Speaker 5: five years. He'll still be a young man. He'll be
Speaker 5: forty eight. I believe we're around there. Yeah, forty seven,
Speaker 5: forty you know, it'll be under fifty by the time
Speaker 5: he gets them. Yeah, just incredible. That's like a minimum.
Speaker 5: I mean, he could get more, but who knows, Yeah,
Speaker 5: who knows.
Speaker 7: Well, it's hope. So anyway, that's hope. So but thanks
Speaker 7: very much. You've done a great service with writing a
Speaker 7: great book and then letting people know. I knew a
Speaker 7: little bit about this story, but there's just no way
Speaker 7: that I'm really glad I got a chance to read.
Speaker 7: This is a great book.
Speaker 5: Hey, thanks a lot for having.
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you, so have yourself a good evening, Robert,
Speaker 7: All right, take care of by bye bye bye. You've
Speaker 7: been listening to the program True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. With your host stan Zepanski, have yourself
Speaker 7: a good evening, good night,