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Speaker 2: Well, it is Saturday, and it is Wrestling Night in America,
the Summer Slam post show for night one, and I
am Pro Wrestling Towards columnist Greg Parks here with you
to walk you through all the results of Night one.
And if you're watching live on YouTube, you're obviously in
for a treat because I am not dressed the way
that I normally dressed for these occasions. But it is
a hint if you're wondering whom I co host is,
because if you've seen him on these post shows, you
know that he has a certain flare about him, and
so let me bring him aboard. It is Peter w
torch dot Com contributor Derek Howard. Derek, I thought coming
on here that you were you were going to put
me to shame and maybe we should have a poll
on Peter W.
Speaker 3: Torch.
Speaker 2: Maybe we should get waid to run a poll of
who wore it better.
Speaker 4: But because.
Speaker 2: That's what he's saying, that would that would maybe be
a more fair comparison, uh than than the other than
the outfit. But I wanted to get in in form
with my co host, you know, I like to be
you know, one with my co host on these shows,
and so here we are. I'm trying to fit in
a little bit. If you're not watching on YouTube by
the way, and if you're listening after the fact, uh
via p members of Peter B Torch dot com listening
at free boy, are you missing out on this? So
I'll just I'll just direct you to the YouTube post
show to get this, to get this dose of masculinity.
I guess I always say so, Greg, I've.
Speaker 4: Always said that one of the key components of a
really good tag team is they have to have matching gear.
That's true, we have to have a matching look. So
the fact that we have like matching looks and matching gear,
I think we are in a plus tag team, right.
Speaker 2: I like it. We'll see how that works for the show. Tonight.
So again this is the Summer Slam post show. We
welcome your comments on the on the comment section of
YouTube as we are going live here and let me
get some more plugs. And Derek, I know you did
the written report at PW torch dot com tonight for SummerSlam,
so I hope people check that out. I'll do the
plugs later. What the heck, We'll get to that another
time because let's jump right into SummerSlam Night one. I
thought just kind of big picture, Derek is I like
to start off these post shows just kind of a
big picture discussion of the show. I thought it was positive.
I thought it was a good show, up and down
the card, six matches. They got it in in about
three hours. You know, I was on the aw post
show last week for those who didn't see that redemption,
and you know they started an hour earlier but basically
the same end time for that show, and you know,
it felt long that show did Not to say it
wasn't good, because I thought it was, but there's something
to be said for a good show and a shorter show,
which this was. So first of all, Derek, you you're
kind of overarching thoughts on night one of SummerSlam.
Speaker 4: Well, I've kind of stepped back when I do my
initial grade of anything, and I just say it's the
three e's. Was I entertained, did I enjoy it? And
was I engaged? And that's a lot easier on a
three hour show. And I can say with all three
of those ease check, check, check, which means it's always
going to be at least the thumbs in the middle show.
And I think that action and the pacing was good
enough that I would tilt my thumb to a thumb
up show for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a thumbs up too. And
we've got some folks in the chat talking about the commercials,
Jay Scooby saying these commercials just kill the vibe of
Summer Slim in any other pay per view.
Speaker 4: I'm a little bit jaded on that because I'm writing
the report that I actually enjoyed the time in between
the matches because it allows me to gather my thoughts
and then type them down and do some editing. So
I do think that that Jade's like it goes by
super fast for me because there is no wait time.
But I can understand if you were confined to your
couch for that. What do you think in between matches tonight?
Was it like probably? It seemed like the first few
they got in and out pretty quick, and then there
was definitely a slow down between the women, six man
tag Cody, Cody and Punk and then the final Helen
to sell. But I thought that was kind of appropriate
for it kind of allows the audience to come down
and then they build them back up during the match. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, as someone who covered SmackDown in real time
for ten years for pw Torch dot com, the commercials
were my opportunity to put my analysis in there, you know,
as you said, do some editing, make sure I didn't
make any major errors, and then kind of really, I mean,
upload it to the site, because you have to do
that when you have the opportunity. As well, Vinnie Saying
agreed what happened to video hype packages and backstage segments.
They don't pay the bills the way ads do, so
that's just kind of a part and parcel with the
WWE product these days. And there was somebody, I think
somebody said the commercials weren't too bad. I think Sean,
who is also on standby here to jump in with
us saying it wasn't bad tonight, but yeah, I mean
it kind of feels like there should be a happy
medium between how ADEW presents their shows and how WWE
presents their shows.
Speaker 4: I agree, yeah, and I do think like the point
that definitely, I think for most fans, including myself who's
a little more tolerant, where I was just like it's
way too much was WrestleMania Night one. I do think
they have pulled back somewhat significantly since that is something
that's more realistic to engage the audience for three hours
while still feeling that you got enough time with the
in ring action, where I didn't think any match went
short tonight, where I'm like they could have used five
more minutes, I thought everything got the appropriate amount of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that was I think that may have been
a product of the first hour not being on ESPN
as it has been for the last couple of shows.
That's often been blamed as the culprit for those matches
going short is the first hour being on ESPN. We
didn't have that tonight. Sadler in the Chest says, I
think the show was solid, but people hate WWE right now,
so they'll bash every show they I do most of
the WWETV shows deserve criticism this year, but I like
this show. Does that ring true to you in terms
of the criticism that WWE has been getting and does
it deserve for their weekly product?
Speaker 4: Well with I fill this with Sadler and it's hard
to step back as a wrestling fan. But in life
there's positive momentum where if there's positive momentum, even when
something's not as good, you'll treat it as good because
you feel there's like a buzz about it. And then
there is something called negative momentum as well. And I
think some of the steps that WWE has taken in
in the last I think it's during the scenea run
has created some negative momentum where now they are swimming
against the current to give favorable fan response in this forum,
which is more of an Internet friendly hardcore wrestling fan audience.
Speaker 2: YEA one thing that jumps out to me from the
chat And again we'll get into the blow by blow
match my match as we go through this year. But
an interesting choice. I thought that Obafemi versus brock Lesner
closed the show over Cody Roads versus c Himpunk and
Vinnie in the chat says Cody versus Punk should have
made evented. You know, I understand from the perspective of
WWE wanting to make a new star in Obam and
really wanting to pull all the levers they can to
make him appear as the new star and putting him
inside Helen Cell against brock Lesner, closing Summer Slam Night
one with that match with brock Lesner not only putting
over Oba Feme in the rain during the match, but
also putting him over on the mic after the match
as a way to kind of close this show. The
last thing fans see, the last thing fans think of.
That's really the only argument I think I could make
as to putting Obafemi versus brock Lessner on last over
in undisputed WWE title match. Sometimes sometimes you see the
match order and it seems kind of funky, and then
you watch it play out and in hindsight you can
understand why they did that. Yeah, in hindsight, I think
they could have put Rose versus Punk on list. I
don't think there was anything done in that match that
would have prevented it from going on last. So with
the hindsight that we have here. Do you believe it
was the right choice to put Lesnar versus Eemi on last?
Speaker 4: I do, and I'll tell you why in adding to
what you said, which I do agree with wanting to
kind of kind of you know, post at the top
of your car that Oba's our next guy. Right when
I saw there was something posted online and it said
that Cody and Punk were not going to main event,
And the first thing that came to my mind is
non conclusive finish where you don't know who the best
man was at the end, and that was what we
had Forrton came in, he hits the Rko, Ceampunk wins
the match. But do we really know that Cam Punk
is better than Cody Rhodes. We don't, right, And for
some people maybe that's a happy but for me, that's
not a happy ending. And I think they learned a
lesson from WrestleMania Night one where WrestleMania Night one they
had anything but a happy ending. Cody wins in a
match that doesn't make anybody feel good about it, and
then Randy beats the hell out of him, and everyone
if they were cheering for Cody, well, Cody won, but
then he got beat up, and then the people who
didn't want Cody to win, well, Cody won anyways, but
he still got beat up. So nobody felt good about
the ending of Night one, and I do think that
that left a scar on WWE, which I believe this
could have been a last minute change where they looked
at what their finish was for the title match and
they're like, a, I don't know if this is going
to make make the fans in the arena satisfied and
the ones who don't have tickets tonight to maybe they're
not going to buy tickets tonight too, and maybe a
lot of people aren't going to decide to not watch
Night two. And I think they learned their lesson, and
I do think that this was the best decision, though
I will say I was interested when Randy came out,
he hits the RKO on Cody and the fans cheer,
and they didn't treat cm Punk's win like it was
a fluke. They were still puzzling after it, so I
don't think it caused the amount of letdown that they
anticipated that it would cause. But having the happy ending
at the end, where it sounds weird to say, two
meaty Big jacked guys and saying we can be friends.
Now that's about Its like happy of an ending that
you get in pro wrestling, and it is like feel good.
I feel good about Oba, and do you feel good
about Brock? Because I feel good about Brock, which makes
me in turn feel good about WWE. So I think
they accomplish that goal by changing the match order.
Speaker 2: And Sadlers says, I think WWE titles should always made
an event, but after watching the post match of Oba Brock,
it was clear the biggest mission of the show is
making Oba the next top star. Yeah, that came across
very clear to me and I think to a lot
of other people. Another comment in the chat they had
to put that on last as they plan to take
the ring apart. I mean that's the point as well.
And then Randy Orton run in would have hurt the
main event, which I think is kind of what you
were saying Derek as well last Framazon in the chat.
So let's go through this match by match, then we'll
bring Sean on it to add his comments here as
we go. Match number one was Live Morgan over Eosky
Women's World title match. I thought this was a really
good opener. One of the things I noted on social
media is Eosky is a big stadium wrestler. You know
how some people, some people can't meet the moment in
their ring in terms of wrestling in front of not
just that size, but we know what happens when a
lot of people get into a space that size, where
the sounder just kind of goes up, and sometimes it
doesn't connect with the wrestlers, it doesn't connect with the
audience at home. But Sky is just she has that.
She plays to the cheap seats, I guess, is what
I'm trying to say, and she does a really good
job of that. Just a really fun opener. I thought
the way the match was progressing that Eosky might walk
away the victor here, but instead live Morgan retains the
women's world title here. I talked about this with Wade
Keller on the Flagship this week when I was previewing
SummerSlam with him. You know, it's very clear that WWE
holds Live Morgan in much higher esteem than I do,
and then some others do. But you know, I think
she is her character is ahead of her in ring.
But I think there's also intriguing stuff going on with
her in Roxane Perez Her and rock Kel Rodriguez that
eventually could combust at some point down the line. Whether
she's champion at that point or not, I'm not sure,
But talk a little bit about your thoughts on Live Morgan,
just kind of as a wrestler versus as a character,
and then this match itself.
Speaker 1: Did you know that you can enjoy commercial free versions
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Speaker 4: Well, the piggyback on your comments about EO first, because
I completely agree with you and the way it was
always taught to me when I was wrestling is you
want to panamimee, and when you panamimee, you got to
sell up with your chin up the whole time because
all of those people they are looking at your level
and you are appealing to them, and some people you
tell them that and it just looks phony, right, you
can tell that that's what they're trying to do. She
does it in an authentic way where it just feels natural,
like she's getting hyped up, which makes them hyped up,
which makes the match feel more energetic, and it comes
across so natural. But as for your comment on Live,
I kind of look at Live this way for the
last ten years. I think it's been about ten years.
I've always been surprised that she's got so many chances
when other people have got cut or they've got left behind,
or they've seen themselves fall down the card. But it
was interesting she's gotten so many chances, but then when
she gets the main chance to win the Royal Rumble
and go on to WrestleMania, she hasn't got a chance
to prove she's a credible wrestler yet. And we started
seeing some improvement last year, and then she got injured
and she went away, and I thought, when she wins
the title, she'll be able to prove her credibility by
having a really good, long match with Stephanie, and then
at WrestleMania, they just had seven or eight minutes. She
didn't really get approved much. And then since then she
hasn't had any title defenses, and she's only had one
match where she's got the opportunity to put in the
time to prove that she's Her wrestling ability is starting
to catch up and maybe reach or exceed her character ability,
and tonight I think was the best indicator of that.
Because you can say a lot about the energy of
the EO brought to the match, but the execution. Live
was just as much on the execution, if not cleaner,
because EO had a few slip ups. She tried to
do her through the rope thing and she got caught up,
but she just seamlessly goes through it where it doesn't
really miss a beat. But Live with everything tonight, timing, character,
the moments between the moves, everything, she was just on point,
and she doesn't have that flashy audience where the audience
is like, oh, she hit the Spanish Fly. Yeah, but
she took the Spanish Fly and she made it look
really good. And yeah, she didn't hit the Sunset flip
power bomb to the outside of the ring, but she
took a hell of a bump on that Sunset flip
power bomb to the outside of the ring, and so
I thought she did great and it was probably my
favorite match. I love the energy level too. It The
one thing that kills me sometimes about WWE shows is
you'll have a slow build match and then it's followed
by a slow build match, and I think some of
the most important thing you can do is just change
the tempo from match to match, because then you don't
know what to expect. And this one felt very lively
to me the entire time, and it was probably my
favorite match on the show.
Speaker 2: I think it's in the conversation for best match of
the night. In fact, some people in chat have agreed
with that. Sadler says, I thought the opener was the
match of the night. You know, hard for me to
disagree with that. Another comment by Sadler EOSO always great
in ring, and for Live, these are the matches she
needs to solidify herself as a legend in the women's division.
Bob says, why does Live get a selective defense mode
like handpicked or when she has to defend it? Why
this special treatment? I mean, again, if you're someone that
WWE is looking at as a big star, potentially a
crossover star maybe in fact, then that's just the way
it works. I mean that's the way any business, any
thing like WWE is going to work. Pile Driver Peak says,
I'm a huge EO fan. Live is met to me.
I think they mentioned this was the first title defense
since April by Live Morgan, which is its wild. First
of all, that that's true, it's wild also that you
would point that out on television.
Speaker 4: Like, well, I'm glad they're not running from it though,
you know, like if you run.
Speaker 2: But I think that invites that invites questions from the
fans like why is that? Why do some wrestlers they're
injured for a month have to drop the title yet
it's been three months since she's defended it and she's
on TV every.
Speaker 4: I do think it's different though. If it was a
babyface champion and they hadn't defended the title since April,
that completely undercuts them. But with Lip's character, it makes
them look bad more than it makes her look bad.
If that makes sense. It makes sense. But yeah, it
was definitely and I do I do give them a little,
at least a little leeway because I know they had
a plan with Stephanie Vauquier that fell through because of
uncertainty and then it was diagnosed an injury, so they
couldn't have the defense they wanted to in those first
four weeks.
Speaker 2: Well, we are one match into the SummerSlam post sho
If you're just tuning in, I am for Wrestling Torchcom
with Greg Parks joined by PW torch dot Com contributor
Derek Hoverard, and this is the SummerSlam Night one post
show here on PTERW torch dot com and the PW
Torch YouTube page if you're watching on YouTube. First of all,
welcome hello. If you're interested in getting a VP membership
to PW torch dot com. Maybe you like what we're saying,
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And speaking of Wade, he is right here on YouTube
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and just as we've shown on the screen, if you
want to be part of the show, you can type
your questions into the chat. We'll discuss them live if
they are particularly interesting. More plugs to come, but we'll
stop right there to get to match number two.
Speaker 4: One more thing on match number one too, Ahady, is
I'd like the fact that the interference came minutes before
the finish, yeah, because it wasn't a credibility killer for Live.
And I think the next step that's really important that
I want them to get to quickly is the Judgment
Day has had dissension without a break for way too long,
and I think like Live's next step needs to be
her breaking free from the Judgment Day. And I do
think if Raquel and Roxanne turn on Her, I think
Live could be a very over babyface and I hope
they get to that sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I talked about Raquel Rodriguez and Roxanne
Perez potentially down the line having an issue with Live Morgan.
They've teased that before, and I wonder who would end
up the babyface in that scenariod, likely Live Morgan. You know,
I'd assume Roxanne or Roquel turning on Live rather than
the other way around, So that is something to keep
an eye on. Match number two was Royce Keys, Solo,
Soca and La Night against the USAS and Jacob fa two.
The Keys, Soca and Night Triumvirate Triumph were USO's and
Jacob Fattu not noticeably not much of a reaction for
Royce Keys coming out Night Pins Jay so a couple
couple of questions here. I mean, I thought the match
was okay, this is one of those matches coming in
though that just kind of was It felt very confusing.
There were a lot of conflicting personalities here that I'm
not sure ever settled into a great spot for us
as fans to really know who to who to like
here And I mentioned during the show again you can
find me at Greg m Parks on X and on
Blue Sky. But it was kind of like it felt
like USO's and Jacob Fatu were the heels and the
others were the baby faces. But when you look at
the teams, it almost feels like, to a man, every
one of them is better the opposite way, like the
USOS and Jacob Fatu, I think we are better babyfaces.
I think Royce Keys, Solstico in l A Night probably
better heels. And yet they were kind of flipped there.
You know, it was confusing because Jacob Fatu doing this
on orders from Roman Rraines, who I think has been
more of the babyface in the build up to the
match against seth Rawlins. I mean Rowinds even coming out
and saying I'm the bad guy, So that was a
little confusing as well, I think, and correct me if
I'm wrong here, but I think Roman Raines's absence in
this story has kind of hurt. You know, the USO's
and Jacob Fatu mentioning they're doing all of this the
behest of Roman Raines, and yet Rains is off doing
his own thing and not really paying attention to this,
so that I think that kind of hurt this as well. Again,
not a bad match or anything like that.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 2: It was a pretty decent six man, but it was
just it was just very convoluted in the build up,
and I think that hurt the presentation of the match.
Speaker 4: I like how you said convoluted in the build up
because I completely agree with you how muddy it's been
leading up to this. But then when they got in
the ring tonight, it was straight babyface for straight ill
like the USO's and Jacob Fattoo. If you wouldn't have
told me that they were babyfaces, and I was a
wrestling fan who knew what a babyface and a hill
acts like and then watch this. They were hill through
and through inasmuch as the yeat stuff and coming through
the crowd was absence. The USOS came out from the
stage kind of did away with that. You know what,
this juncture is kind of an artificial fan pop. They
didn't even take that. And I think in the match
they worked the heat. They were the ones taking the
cheap shots. All of the hot tags came from the
Babyface team. So it was a babyface hill match, and
as a babyface in a hill match, I thought it
was very energetic and it worked quite well. This match
was made worse by the fact that I've watched TV
leading up to it, but the actual it's a dream point.
Speaker 2: If you just like plopped in at this moment and
watch this match, you probably think it was pretty decent
and you kind of liked it. You know, solo Sako
as being a babyface and yeah, I'm more outgoing than
he's ever been, and you're like, oh, this is kind
of cool. But like you said, you watch the TV
and you're like this this is not adding up.
Speaker 4: So I'll say like, as a match, I thought this
was energetic and quite good. They even did like the
shotgun It's called the shotgun spot where everyone hits their
big finish, they go to the floor. They had that
cool spot where Jacob Fattou dashes it Royce Keys and
he power slams them kind of kind of looked ugly
but in a good way to the out over the barricade,
and so a lot of really good.
Speaker 2: Actions youri spot of the match.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of good action. I was just like
the whole time I'm watching this, I'm like, well, if
you were going to do a hill and face match,
why didn't you dress them up as baby faces cleanly?
And dress these other guys up his heels cleanly in
the weeks leading up to this, because you made people
care less, but the action made them care more.
Speaker 2: Some more comments from the chat on this one. Poor
Royce still not fully over. There's still time. I'm not
ready to give up on the Royce Keys experiment yet,
though it's off to a little bit of a slow start.
Speaker 4: For sure, he's lacking. I'll say this like, I don't
think he has a natural charisma and one thing that
kind of scares me, and I'll talk about this with
Nick all this as well, But it's not gonna matter
for Nick Allis because he's not a wrestler at all.
But you can kind of see when a wrestler's past
their prime when they run the ropes and they don't
bend their knees anymore. And if you watch Royce Keys
run the ropes and in aw he never ran. They
were always running into him, and he was picking up
guys who are generally at least sixty, if not one
hundred pounds less than him. Now he's struggling to pick
up Jimmy Usso, and not just tonight, multiple times. And
when he runs, watch his knees. He doesn't bend his knees.
And once a wrestler doesn't have that bend in their knees,
not only can they not run, but if you're taller,
you have a hard time bending your knees to get
under guys. And if you can't get under a guy,
you're gonna have a really hard time picking them up
without them doing a lot of work. So I worry
about him because I think he's already passed his physical
prime and I see limitations in him before he's even
made it to the dance.
Speaker 2: Yes, one of those things where you know, you're talking
about how AW booked him and how they set up
his match structure, and if you're WWE and you're the
producers of his matches, I mean you got to know
what he does well and what he doesn't, and you've
got to structure the match around what he can do,
what he's capable of at this point, and not try
to stretch him outside the bounds of what he can
really do.
Speaker 4: And the worst thing they did is when they had
him wrestle Taalatanga, because when he wrestled Taalatanga, he did
the spot where he close lines him, he doesn't run down,
he runs against the ropes, he close unds him again
and doesn't fall down, hits the ropes again, close lines him,
and he knocks him back. And right then I was like, oh,
Royce Keys can't run. He's no longer an athlete. And
once you look at a big guy who's not an athlete,
their credibility is gone.
Speaker 2: Sadler says match was fine in my opinion, did what
it was supposed to do. Get Solo over as a face,
gives Keys a big match, gives La a big win
for what I will soon be a Roman title match
in the your future do you see that as the
future for La Knight? Is that what this is building to,
going over the bloodline here to eventually go kind of
up the Bloodline ladder to Roman Reigns.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could see it as the lead up to
a Wargames match or the fallout from a Wargames match.
But I think the quality of work that La Knight's
done on the mic and just kind of being like
a stable force in the WWE main event or just
below main event level, I think he deserves another big match,
and that's a good one for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Somebody else in the chat, Tom saying solo highlight
of the night, Pile Driver Pete says, I really like
the men six man tag. The night got a loud
reception that he did. So let's go then to match
number three, which was Gunther versus Nick Alldis. And this
was another match that I highlighted on the Flagship with
Wade earlier this week as probably like the third biggest
match over the two nights, which is kind of weird
if you think about it. It's Gunter versus someone who's
been presented as a non wrestler on TV as the
SmackDown GM. So that's either an indictment of the build
or the rest of the card, or just a compliment
as to the creative leading up to this match. I'm
not sure which one of those it is, but this
is good reaction for all this. You know, I was shocked.
I mean, for someone who has never wrestled in WWE
and has no history with probably a lot of this
fan base, they really took to him in this match.
Speaker 4: Especially by the end. Especially by the end, which is
the quality of work you're doing during the match. There's
this this list blitmus tests in wrestling, the entrance that
you get coming in and the entrance that you get
coming out, and if you're getting a more favorable response
coming out than you did coming in, that means you
and your opponent did a hell of a job and
in this match, which wasn't my favorite, but I thought
it definitely accomplished its goal and I think we did
a good job.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the finish felt a bit abrupt. I thought, you know,
this was kind of tailor made for the Gunther style
of match, which is he dominates the first couple of
minutes his opponent. You know, it was kind of the
Sammy z Ain formula that they used against Gunther when
those two were having their feud, and Zane kind of
works his way back because those hope spots get those
real close in near falls, but in the end Gunter
kind of puts them down. And I thought this was
kind of an abbreviated version of that style of match.
I thought it it may and who knows? You know
all this for all his training for this match hasn't
wrestled in three years. He may have calls an audible
and said let's go home a little earlier because the
finish did feel abrupt to me, and then he gets
the cheers after the match, Mickey James, his wife, his son,
come into the ring, kind of ascend off again. Crowd
very receptive to all this and his family at that point.
Big question that I've had some discussion with people on
social media after this match is did you see enough
from all this in this match? And did he get
a good enough reception from the crowd where if your
triple h do you sit back and consider, Okay, let's
maybe move him away from GM. Let's maybe get a
year or two out of him as a as a
full time wrestler, because he's shown he can do it.
He's shown that he has the fan response already built in.
Is that something you would seriously consider for me?
Speaker 4: No, because I think actually this match and how well
it went and the way the fans took to him
will make him better in the GM role working with Hills,
because now everything the Hill. Every time the Hill argues
with him or attempts to BULLYM or cuts off the
rules and Nick reinforces the rule, it makes the fans
want to reinforce the rules, which I think makes the
GM role more effective. So I actually think that this
helps his GM character more than it would if he
was a week to week wrestler, where I think eventually
he would fall down the card right right.
Speaker 2: That would be my argument. I agree with you, I
would say, I would say a lot of the same
things you did, and I would also add I think
he's more important as a GM, and he's really good
at that role, and I think he's more valuable to
WWE given the importance of that role and given how
much screen time. And you can agree or disagree whether
or not a GM character should get that much TV time,
but in WW he does, and he's really good at it,
and he gets a lot of TV time. Is it
worth taking him out of that to wrestle what would
likely be a mid card role. You know, I certainly
don't see him being a you know, maybe he gets
a title shot on TV at some point based on
the reaction he got tonight, maybe they could make that argument,
but it's certainly not I mean, he's not going to
transition into a full time main eventor so to me,
he's more important as a GM character wise on the
show than he would be as a wrestler. Likely somewhere
in the car.
Speaker 4: I agree. And what made this match work the most
is the novelty of it. The novelty for the people
who have not seen him, Rustle made them take to him,
especially when he showed like my favorite part of the
match was actually the first one of the first things
they did where Gunther backs him into the corner and
chops him, like tries to punk him and bully him,
and he gets chopped and Nick Allie just swings and
punches him right back, and you hear the fans are like, oh,
he's not going to take it, And I just love
that moment because it was like, oh, yeah, this is
what this match is going to be. Gunther's going to
try to bully him, and he's going to fight back
because he's fighting for his manhood essentially and for his pride.
And that was the story of the match that was told.
And I think you can only do that so many
times though, and then it loses effectiveness. So I like
him as a novelty match every now and then, and
it might be once a year, it might be once
every two to three years. But now I think a
lot of the fans know that this guy, you can
only push him so far and then we get to
see him Russell, but every time you get to see
him Rustle, it's gonna feel special if they do it right.
And I think as a heel GM, you could do
another match where he's the hill GM and the baby
Face gets to beat him up and it will be
effective just like that as well. So I think putting
him in the GM role but having it in the
safe in the back room that if he needs to
wrestle for an angle, it can work. I think that's
kind of a pocket ace when you need it.
Speaker 2: It's good to have. It's good to have to pull
out when you need it and know that he can
be effective in that role comments on this match from
the chat. I thought this was good, also says Saddlers.
And I see a very old school style match get
a big reaction from the crowd. Surprised Alla Scott this reaction,
and Jace C. Scooby says, I saw body slams thanks
to all this pile driver Pete all this had the
crowd on his side. Nice to see. Jack says, I
loved all this gunther It's good to see him get
in there. Let's see who else. Bob says, all this
can still go. Gunn There ads to Guntherro's resume, but
they need to run it back just to see how
good gun There really is. I think we saw how
good gun There really is in this match. I mean
I didn't see an out for all this or anything
like that. Sean, he'll talk more about this, I'm sure
when we get him on the air. But he said
all this should definitely wrestle for a while, so some
disagreement there. I'd love to hear more from him on that.
A lot of people just pointing out how pleased they
were about the match, which is awesome to see.
Speaker 4: The other thing that scares me about all this, and
I mentioned this about Royce Keys too, but he doesn't
bend his knees a lot when he runs, like he
barely got over They did like the drop down leapfrog spot,
and I thought he was going to trip over Gunter
both times because he just doesn't run the ropes with
a lot of fluidity at this point. And Matt tells
me like, whenever I see that, I'm like, oh, that
guy's got bad knees. And he looked a little winded
as well. But it actually kind of added to the match,
because then that's what.
Speaker 2: Someone in the chat said it was. It was he looked,
he looked blown up, But it added to the match
because you know, you would expect a guy who's been
a chi in the lastew year, who hasn't rustled the
match to be winded against a guy the caliber of Gunga.
Speaker 4: And it adds to the fact though he looked like
a guy who was getting beat up, which makes him
when he fights back, it's even more valiantly right, So
I thought it worked.
Speaker 2: Match number four, Bella's and Page against Fatal Influence. This
one was a rough spot on the card, I thought. Comparatively,
speaking to the rest of the show, J C. Jane
Pinn's page, Fatal Influence gets the victory the Bella's turn
on page after the match looks like there could have
been an injury to breathe Bella. She was holding her
shoulder after the match, did not really participate so much
in the postmatch beat down. So, you know, kind of
in the same circle as Obafemi here in that Fatal Influence.
A group on the rise in WWE, on the SmackDown
roster gets a big victory on a major show, a
stadium show, Summer Slam against a Hall of Fame team
in the Bella's as well as page and you know,
they keep the Bella's drama going with the with the
turn on on page. So your thoughts on the match
itself and your impression of Fatal Influence thus far in
ww's main roster.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be blunt. This match sucked. It was terrible.
Speaker 2: I was more I was definitely more diplomatic about it
than New York Derek appreciated.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be nice about it. I'll give
I'll give Breese some leeway that she looked like her
she hurt her shoulder, and I've been I tried to
be really forgiving of the bellas, but their offense just
doesn't look good. It was rough, and I feel that
they've done no service to fatal Influence because they're working
at different speeds. Fatal Influence is trying to be these
aggressive heels, and their intensity and their aggressiveness is just
not being matched. This has not helped them whatsoever. And
one of the ways that I can tell a match
is falling apart and just has no rhyme or reason
is when I'm trying to take these little notes in
my book to do my recap, and then when I
read my notes, I'm like, oh, this doesn't make any sense.
Who put me together? And and it was like that
because I'm like, so there was a transition here, but
I don't remember what the transition was because it really
wasn't a transition. And this person where they legal? Why
are they in the ring? Did I miss a tag?
Did they not show me the tag? Did they forget
the tag? And that whole thing. I was just like,
this is by the By the last like minute and
a half, I was like, I have no idea. Who's legal?
I have no idea what what the story they're trying
to tell this just feels like an absolute mess. And
to even go one step further, I'm really upset that
the Bella's turned on page. Not because they turned on page,
because this means that I hope we don't have to
see more television time being allocated to these gals. Give
it to somebody else who are gonna is going to
use it in a more meaningful fashion. That's not nostalgia
for Total Divas viewers from ten years ago. Make it stop, please.
Speaker 2: You know there there is this online group of fans
who really believe and look the Bellas I think influenced
through Total Diva's me influenced a generation of women, got
a generation of women watching pro wrestling that otherwise would
not have watched the product. And I think you do
have some women getting into wrestling and reaching the WWE
sth today because of the Belts. I think that's real.
Speaker 4: Yes, I agree, I agree, But what.
Speaker 2: I don't think was ever real was that they were
of any great shakes in the ring. And I know
there are some people who want to get on their
soapbox and talk about how much the Bellows improved over
their time in WWE from when they began. Minimally, maybe
I just didn't see this. You know, we can talk
about the Bellas and their influence and their impact, but
we can also hold the same thought in our head
that they're just not good in the ring and they've
never really been that good in the ring.
Speaker 4: And I look at this of the last year too, Greg,
and it does kind of frustrate me. Is it's Stephanie
Bacare became champion and the first the first contender they
set up for her to help her get over as
a babyface was nicky and it didn't work. It hurts Stephanie.
Butcare's title run and it hurts Stephanie Bacaire. And now
you have fatal influence come in as these hot heels.
And if you remember when they showed up first, they
were attacking Charlotte and they were attacking Rhea and they
had lots of heat. And then they put them against
this team and what have we seen. It feels like
the energy behind them is lessening and lessening. So if
they're not going to do it for the product and
for the talent that surrounds them, they're a net negative
on your show. Even if they are bringing in some
holdover fans. I respect what they do outside of wrestling,
But there is a time where they have such a
lineup of females who could get time and use it
and cherish it more and do more with it going
forward instead of always looking back, move forward, don't look back.
Bellas are looking back. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: Some comments, it looks like the Bella's turn on page
was not all that unexpected. John said it was his prediction.
He says they're better as heels. We had Jack in
the chat saying that Bella's turn was expected and actually
expected it after WrestleMania. Let's see, we have the purpose
of that page, Matt. She was to get Paige back
into I'm really sure how useful that's going to be,
even I don't know what she has far removed from
her days is yeah, she's far removed from her days
where she was kind of this this nxt UH star.
You know, she's had a lot of injuries things like that,
and and the women's roster as a whole has gotten
better from in ring standpoint, So the bar has been
raised in the time that she's been away, in the
time that she's you know, Ben hurt and things like that,
and I'm not sure where she fits in with this
current crop from an entering standpoint.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I just worry about also the fact that
where is she in five years. She's not on the rosters,
So if she's not helping somebody else get to a
higher level, I don't think she's serving a purpose, right,
So I would give it to people who who are
going to be more fixtures of your women's division in
the coming years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. A Zahm said it felt like a TV match.
Jack says, personally, I think jac should be winning the
interim ladder match. So that's the mass that takes place
tomorrow night. It looks like, you know, the consensus in
the chat is that there was not a lot of
love for this match, but there is some interest in
fatal influence going forward, so people not holding it against
fatal influence that they were a participant in this match.
Speaker 4: I suppose the best part of this match is it
was only seven minutes, so I've complained about it more
than it actually took to watch it. So that's okay.
Speaker 2: Well, we are talking heads on the internet. That's kind
of what we do. I think that sums it up
right there.
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Speaker 2: Match number five the Semi Manument Cody Rhods versus Cmpunk
Undisputed WWE Championship. This was a They set a slow
pace very early on and deliberate. It didn't feel like
the crowd was super into it at first either, and
that maybe just because here's two babyfaces to top baby
faces that people really like fighting, and it's kind of
like your parents fighting. You don't want to choose between them,
so the crowd kind of just was waiting things out
a little bit. Eventually the ref was bumped, Randy Orton
comes back our Ko's Cody Cmpunk gets the victory and
retains the undisputed WWE championship. As you mentioned earlier in
the show, we never really did get to find out
who the better man was, which was kind of how
this match was built and set up, you know heat.
I think WWE hoping the heat goes on Randy Orton
for us not getting to see who who the better
man was here. It's gonna be really interesting to see
what Sam Punk says on the on the first show,
whether it's r or SmackDown, wherever he speaks first. You know,
is he going to say, is he going to say, hey, Cody,
I saw what happened with Randy, didn't see it till
after the match, you get a rematch anytime you want?
Or does he kind of go out and gloat and say, I,
you know, I beat Cody Rose, I proved I was
the best. I'm still here champion. Who's next? And that's
going to say a lot about seem Punk the character,
whichever tact he takes. But Derek, you know this again,
this was a slow pace, but I thought it was
worked well. The only misstep was was see them punk
missing a moon swamps off the top rope, which you
can kind of tell the look on his face after that.
He knew that that was going to become, you know,
kind of an Internet sensation for the next twenty four hours. Anyway,
he knew he kind of blew the spot, but you
know it was it was a good match. What was
your take on just kind of the pace and the
overall pace they set for the match.
Speaker 4: The way I described it in my report that I'll
stand by is it was good, but not great and
far from epic. And I think that was a lot
because I'm fine with the slow pace, but at times
in that slow pace, you really want to pick up
that intensity where it gets to that next level and
then the crowd comes up to that intensity with you,
and that's what creates that buzz in the arena. And
there was a few exchanges they had where I thought
they almost got to that buzz, but then the follow
up didn't take it to that next level, and so
that's where I felt. I felt like it was kind
of stuck in this like three and a half gear
in this three and a half gear, and I was
hoping the crowd could take it up to four or
their energy could take it up to four. And I
never felt it got there. Described it, yeah, but they
had a few exchanges where I thought they almost.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder how much of it was. Look, I mean,
Cody Rose is forty one years old, Ciampunk is forty
seven years old. There are a lot of miles on
those two bodies, and you know, this is a this
is a pace that they could go through and not
be sucking win at the end. And so I wonder
how much of that went into setting up the match
in this style, just that hey, these are two old
dogs and in order to in order to climax their
match at the end after however many minutes it went.
And I don't know how many minutes it went, you know,
probably closing in on Oh, okay, I was gonna say twenty,
but yeah, thirty. I mean certainly you want to make
sure if you if you get the call that you're
going thirty, you want to make sure that you have
your best at the end. And I think that deliberate
pace over the first ten fifty team twenty minutes was
an effort to make sure that they had their best
to offer at the end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the easiest way to distinguish this from
what would have been an excellent or an epic match
is in structure. This was very similar to Roman Reigns
versus Sampunk at WrestleMania Night two, but which set that
methodical pace. But they were able to pick up that
energy and that intensity at different times in the match,
and the crowd came there with that energy too, and
that's when that momentum and that energy level starts to
stack on top of each other and then it reaches
that moment CM Punk and Roman Reigns, which I thought
was just phenomenal this year. They reached that level and
then they kept it there and they almost pushed it
again to that height. This just never got there, and
so they couldn't push it higher than where it was.
And some of that is what you're talking about. You're
setting that methodical pace, but you've got to have those
moments where that energy and that intensity picks up. And
I don't think they had enough of folks.
Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit about Randy Orton and
what his comeback means, you know, I think there was
reporting just a few days ago actually by Fightful about
Orton out with a back injury, aggravating his back during
his last match, and taking some time away. So it
was kind of surprising in that regard that he came
back here tonight. But obviously his sites are set on
Cody Rhodes. Where do you see Orton versus Roads ultimately
taking place? What do you think Orton adds to the
roster at this stage.
Speaker 4: Of the game. I think Orton and Cody, I think
they tried it, and they know it got messed up
by Pat McAfee, and so they wanted to give it
another try. But I think they're forgetting that even before
you introduce Pat mcavee to the equation, it wasn't working
the way they wanted it to work in the first place,
so I'm cautious about going back to it. What I
see for Randy Orton, which I think would be better
for him and better for the company, is to put
them with younger guys because they can bring the energy
in the motion and he actually doesn't have He doesn't
have to try to keep up with them. He can
actually slow him down and make their stuff mean more,
and I think that would be a better use of
Randy Orton. I wish I could say I would be
I was excited for a Cody Randy match, but WrestleMania
left such a stain on me, and I think a
lot of the fan base that right when you say it,
you kind of like sink down in your chair and
you go, I don't know if I want to see that.
That's how I feel. Is that how you feel about it?
Gray Well?
Speaker 2: I mean when you see Cody Ross Ridy Orton, I'm
trying to picture that match in my mind, and there's
a very low ceiling to the quality of that match.
I mean, with with Orton's injuries, with Rhodes, you know,
with his agent and the wear and tear again on
his body when we saw that probably play a part
in the match being structured the way it was here tonight.
You know, it's just not I wonder how aesthetically pleasing
that match is going to be. I think it's I
think the match is probably going to be a lot
of slow, methodical body work, you know, which, hey, there's
there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but again, you know,
it's it's kind of a low ceiling as to the
quality you're going to get, just because at this stage
they're not going to do a whole lot outside the box.
They're not, so unless you unless you do a stip
like a cage match or you know, falls count anywhere
or something that lets them kind of walk and brawl
and use some weapons and and really create interests artificially
in that way. If you're doing a straight Cody Roads
versus Randy work in one on one match, yeah I
don't see. It doesn't have a ton of upside to me.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think what was most disappointing too, is in
the lead up to WrestleMania, I went on YouTube and
I watched all these old Cody Roads and Randy Orton
matches when Cody was in Legacy and a round Man
and even before, and they had killer chemistry and there
was like a spark in it, like they have this
raw match and it was I was like, Wow, this
is really, really, really good. And then they had their
match for the King of the Ring tournament, which set
a slow pace, but I still think it was pretty
high quality, and so I was pretty disappointed that they
laid such an egg at WrestleMania and I think it's
easy to blame the storyline on it, but the end
ring action was not very good either, So I'm with you.
But I think one step that could work that I
think with lower expectations for a wrestling match, is I
wouldn't mind seeing like a taped fist and jeans old
school bull rope match, like just that style brawling. Both
of those guys have good punches and kicks. You set
that intensity those that's that one or two exceptions they
do every year where you get some blood and some color,
you use the cow bell, all the bells and whistles.
That's a match that I think they could put off
and they would leave the fans feeling good about the match,
but also good about the rivalry and otherwise straight up
wrestling match between those two. I don't feel it in
my belly. It doesn't It doesn't get me excited.
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm not sure Randy Orton has ever
worn jeans before. I'm that may disqualify him from participating.
Speaker 4: In a match of that kind of taped fist shirt
in his underwear.
Speaker 2: Yes, there you go. That's that's more like it. That's
more than Andy Orton speed sleepless hoodie.
Speaker 4: There's something good about a sleepless hooy.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever worn a sleepless hoity.
Speaker 4: I'm going to try that me neither me neither, because
it seems like such like a paradox, like I'm old
but I'm warm. I don't understand it at.
Speaker 2: The Bill Belichick style. Maybe I don't know do they
make those or you do have to rip them off,
because Belichick always looked like he ripped his off.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think he was going for like, I
don't care. Look, even though you know he obviously probably cares.
He became a gimmick. Isn't that interesting that the no,
the no thrills coach became like a stereotype and a
caricature of himself.
Speaker 2: And yeah he did.
Speaker 4: He's pro wrestling. Bill Belichick's pro wresting.
Speaker 2: Anyway. Anyway, back to Randy Rivers Cody Rose in the chat,
Sadler says, I thought this was very slow. Could have
been on the phone scrolling for the first ten minutes
or so and not miss much. Yeah, I think that's
a that's a good way to put it. Azan says,
hopefully they get Cody and Randy feed better this time. Well,
not having Pat McAfee involved, well kind of automatically, Well,
we'll do that.
Speaker 4: I want to see I want to see Finn and Randy.
I think that's like a novel matchup that we've never seen.
And I think they would have good chemistry because Finn
Balor he's got that he's the energetic baby face where
a Hill doesn't have to do much for the match
to go really good. So I'd like to see that.
Speaker 2: And based on what he talked about on SmackDown, you
know he could be hungry for that. That style of
the interview that Bellor cut on SmackDown, Pyle Dreve repeat.
The thing that irks me is Orton and Rhodes are
two veterans against each other, that these dudes need to
put people over. Yeah, I think that's the general the
general sentiment. Tom says the pace of the match cut
the crowd out of the match for too long. What
do you most attribute to that lack of reaction at
least early on. Was it that there's these two baby
faces and fans didn't know who cheer for, or was
it the slow pace of the match.
Speaker 4: A combination of the two. But I definitely felt what
you're talking about, where I thought there would be like
a notable buzz as they made introductions and the bell rung,
and I was kind of like, I remember, I grabbed
my remote control and I started looking at the volume
to see if it was turned down because I just
wasn't hearing a lot of noise. But to be honest,
that's kind of what I felt in Brocklesner and Oba.
I felt there would be more of a buzz at
the start, and they got there. But I think this
was like in a good example of a crowd that
had to be worked into being interested. They weren't interested
just by default.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a comment here from Nashville, DA saying the
highlight was Punk's Minnesota north Stars gear. Definitely hitting the
wayback machine on that one. John says, I like the
Punk Cody match, but I'm really tired of rough bumps
and a big match ending in an interference finish. It's
lazy and Punk not seeing it as laying he couldn't
hear the crap pop or the r KO. Yeah, I
was more forgiving because there it wasn't up and down
the card.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes w W a t V is especially
guilty of the not so much the rough bumps, but
the interference or the distraction finishes. But up and down
this card it was it was pretty you know, you
had the interference in I think it was live an
EO right and that, but it didn't lead to the finish.
So this this to me, right, this was the only
one you had that, So it was you know, I'll
give it a pass this time. Plus, you know, I
think fans are more willing to give it to pass
because if Randy were a big star coming back. Yeah,
and again you can your mileage may vary on that.
It certainly it doesn't necessarily have to be the consensus.
Here's one life that Cody Punk's met a majority of
the mash in the ring and not as many high
spots like we see. Now, Yeah, that's that could be
you know, the conditioning of the fans over time to
react to certain spots. And you know, Wade talks about
this a lot, where you know, the fans are trained
to react to certain spots, to react to certain things
and not others, and and so that this could be
a byproduct of that as well. Orton versus Cody more
face versus face, Uh, and no Orton is not a heel,
crowd will not boo him. Do you believe that? Do
you believe the crowd won't boom Randy Orton against Cody.
Speaker 4: Ros I think it's really hard because he's a legacy
he's a legacy competitor now where I don't even think
it's worth turning him hell, to be honest, but I
think it's very indicative of what he did tonight that
he will be a heill going forward. I do think
that's going to be swimming upstream. Though. He's got that
legacy reaction from the fans, which makes it hard to
not like the guy, right, especially because now you see
like happy Randy where you kind of know that he's
not like a dick as a person anymore. And I
think most people know that, and so I think it's
hard to go back from that.
Speaker 2: So you think, do you think they will go full
one hundred percent heel or will it be just kind
of not you know, more of a heelish Orton but
not one hundred percent heel.
Speaker 4: If that makes sense, I think they'll go one hundred
percent He'll Orton. I think the one thing that could
help him get over as a heel is if they
put Sampunk against him. And I think if you if
you have Punk take the side against Orton, even if
they don't rustle each other, I think it will make
I think it will get It will be more likely
to boo Randy Orton maybe standing in the ring against
Sam Punk, because against Cody, I think it's going to
be at best fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2: And you can see a scenario where that plays out right.
Punk is upset that Orton interrupts his match again roads
where they were wanting to find out who is truly
the best, and you know, Punk maybe stands up to
Orton at some point down the line and that leads
to a Punk Orton pay per viewmatch perhaps.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And you also said, like at the beginning when
we start talking about this match, that CM Punk should
give a rematch to Cody. But I think there's a
reason he won't, and that's because you have a Number
one contenders match tomorrow. And so I think that kind
of that kind of creates a roadblock where he doesn't
have to look like he's he's avoiding a rematch. He
already has a number one contender set up. It's kind
of out of his hands so he doesn't have to
avoid it, right, which would be a hint.
Speaker 2: How does Roads react to that? Is he upset that
Punk won't give him a rematch? You know, you don't
want to go the Sammy's Ain full crime and complaining style.
But I mean, Roades certainly has a case if he
wanted to make it that he deserves a rematch. And
if Punk says no, no, no, I've got this number
one contender over here, does Rose just say, ah, okay,
I'll go dance with Randy Orton over here for a while,
or does he protest and say I don't care that
you've got this number one consender, you owe me or
remash first.
Speaker 4: Well, if I put my valiant baby face cape on,
I think that he needs to defend his honor by
taking out Randy Orton, because Randy Orton is the guy
who got in his way, and he's kind of he's
got that unfinished business where his soul is not going
to be cleansed until he cleanses it of Randy Orton,
which puts him on a side journey before he gets
back to his focus of the title. And I think
that's a fan that's a side journey that makes sense
with fans, you know, like, oh yeah, well, of course
he can't just at want the title back. He's got
to put Randy in his place. You know, Randy kicked
him in the head at WrestleMania and then screwed up
his title match at SummerSlam. I need to go after
him and beat him first.
Speaker 6: Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Pass cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the Nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.
Speaker 2: All Right, the main event, brock Lesner versus Obafemi, hell
in us sell. Obafemi gets the victory with stands I
think it was three f fives and ends up giving
a power bomb onto I think it was supposed to
be onto the wood is Brocklesner had peeled up the
ring canvas and exposed the wood, but I think he
missed that. And then after the match, Lesner puts over Femi.
On the mic, says Lesner says he Lesner is the past,
Obafemi is the future. So you know, pretty straightforward. I
my disappointment is that they did not utilize the cell
structure more. I thought they left a lot on the
table there by not doing more, because you've got these
two big brutes, and I think people were picturing, oh,
hell on a sell Man, they're gonna one's gonna get
thrown through the cage or you know they're going to
do this. I thought there were a lot of possibilities
with the cage that they didn't fully flesh out. But
you can't put someone over much stronger than WWE has
put over Oba Femi, and it's very clear that they
see him as a top star WrestleMania main eventor perhaps
as early as twenty twenty seven, you know, he passed
on the opportunity to challenge for a title here at
SummerSlam in order to finish kind of this best of
three that he had going with Brock Lesner. So somewhere
along the way He's probably going to claim he still
owed a title match, and that could be at WrestleMania
next year. So what did you think of the match?
And I'm curious is what you thought of the post
match with brock Lesner really going the extra mile to
put over over Femi as the next big thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Like the match, I think it was about right
where my expectation was. I appreciate the aggressiveness, the violence.
No punches are pulled, everything looks like it hurts. They
sell legitimate. I think that's like the most underappreciated aspect
of brock Lesner is he knows when to get knocked back,
he knows when to get knocked down, he knows when
to fire up, he knows when to give that facial
expression or something, and a lot of people I think
they just dumb him down to he's just German suplexes
and F five's. There is so much more that goes
to that guy's performance that makes it just that a performance,
and it's a performance that feels about as real as
it gets. And I think that's what you had in
this match. I think Opa did a great job with
his The way I put it is there's different ways
to sell right, and Oba sells like a courageous, tough babyface.
He's always fighting to his knees. He knows when to
fire up and get the crowd involved, but it's not
too over the top where it's like nineteen eighties babyface,
I'm pulling my hair out even if I don't have
any you know, Like he he knows those levels and
it comes natural to him, and I think that's just
that's why he's going to be a huge star. And
also I thought they had, you know, I think in
a Brocklesner match that's twelve minutes, you want to have
three seminal moments that everybody remembers. And those three seminal moments,
I think we're in this match right. There is the
kickout out of the fall from Grace, and then the
sit up and he kicks Oba like I'm not going
to take this shit. This is not Mere's. He gets
him up for the f five and he transitions into
the tombstone, and then he tombstones him and does the
Undertaker pin. People are going to remember that and play
that in WW videos for the next twenty years. It'll
be in the video game when they do their little
video game, add things in the next five and then
the final finish where Oba beats him and they embrace
at the end. Those moments will live on forever. And
it's not every WWE event where we get those moments
that are going to live on in fandom as long
as someone doesn't commit a heinous murder and gets to
race from history for the next like fifteen or twenty years.
And they created those.
Speaker 2: Time knocking on wood there for that, Yeah for sure. Yeah,
and you know there was another moment that brock Lesner
doing the tombstone pile driver. Yeah, absolutely, message there Lessner
being the one to end the Undertaker's wrestle media win
streak and Op kicks out of the tombstone pile driver
that listener used on the wood by the way there.
So so it sounds like my next question, but I
think you kind of answered it was going to be
how big can be? I mean, does he have the traits?
Do you see the traits in him today? And granted
he could get even better, but do you see the
traits in him today to where he can be that
future star that carries the WWE brand, Because I think
by his booking, WWE certainly sees that as his ceiling
right now.
Speaker 4: So my only worry is that they see him as
that overly dominant champion, which doesn't have a lot of
staying power at the top because they can only go
against these opponents like if they're unbeatable and undefeatable. They
only can wrestle these few people and their matches can
only go like this. But if you watch his NXT run,
and I watched all of his NXT run, every NXT episode,
every nxtpl what was most impressive to me about Oba
is the fact that he could rustle smaller guys Leon Slater.
He had a great match against Leon Slater, had a
great match against Javon Evans, had a believable match against
Ricky Saints. He's wrestling guys who are not anywhere close
to his physically imposing as he is, but the way
he sells makes the match believable but doesn't make him
look weak, and it's a really strong match. Most big
guys can't do that, which is why they have bronz
Stroman runs where they get to the top, they get
knocked down, they have to do comedic elements and then
sometimes they get put back. Is a physically dominant force.
Oba doesn't have to follow that trajectory or that path
because he does have all the tools to do it.
They just need to allow him to use those tools.
And if they don't allow him to use those tools
soon enough, then people will see it as well, why
is he selling for a small guy? So I think
you in the next six months you have to have
him wrestle a competitive match against someone who's smaller than
him to allow that to sink into people that that
is okay.
Speaker 2: What do you think the chances are of Because brock Lesner,
whether or not he retires with this match or has
another match or two in him, he is at the
end of the line. What are the chances the WWEC
sees Obafemi as their new brock Lesner. And I mean
that in terms of match style, where he not not
the schedule obviously wrestle more, but just kind of taking
on that there's a certain style to brock Listners matches
that he has wrestled over the last decade where it's
kind of get in, do the big moves, get up
style match with the passing. You know, you could almost
say it's a literal passing of the torch here where
Oba is really taking over the brock Lesner mantle for
that style of match to be offered on pay per view.
Do you think do you think they're going that direction
with Oba Femi to kind of take over that brock
Lesner style.
Speaker 4: I worry they are, and I think that limits him.
Speaker 2: Do you think he has more to offer than that?
That's too limiting for him?
Speaker 4: Is that? Well? And and and it's not only that
I think he has more to offer. I've seen that
he has more to offer, and I think most fans
like did you watch NXT GRAG or have seen those
matches I'm talking about, so you know what I'm talking about,
Like how much? What do you think Javon Evans weighs
one hundred pounds maybe more, maybe more or less than
than Oba? Right, yeah, and he's like a skinny guy, right,
But I believed that he could knock Oba down because
he knocked Oba back twice before he knocked him down.
That not only shows the ability of Javon, but that's
a skill that that Oba has and knows how to
use it. And I think that just makes the main
event seen in WWE a lot more exciting because if
you ask me right now, who would you rather have
as a long term champion, bron Breaker or Oba Femei.
My answer would be, as long as they don't put
those limitations on Oba Fami, and then I'll get bored
of him in that main event level real quick, where
I know everybody already knows that bron Breaker can wrestle anybody,
any size, and it's going to be okay if it's
fifteen or twenty minutes. But if you pigeonhole Oba that
he can only wrestle guys and has to beat him
in ten minutes, well then I don't want to see
his matches as much, and I don't want to see
him at the top of the card for the next
ten to fifteen years, right, So yeah.
Speaker 2: All right, Well before we get to Sean here, we'll
go to him next. A couple more plugs to get
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if you have an interesting slant on something that's something
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So if you have an idea for that, Wade would
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Sean is ready to join us, So Sean VIP member
Peter w Torch contributor bon Vivant. I guess Sean is
here with us this evening. Sean, thank you for joining us.
Thanks for hanging on while we worked through the card
and I guess I just want to jump to you
and where you want to take us here to start.
Speaker 7: Well, first, I will say, as much as I love Wade,
I will never be a contributor to the site only
because I'm not a writer and that would suck. You
would not want to see my articles. They would be
terrible in so many ways just from the writing. Wade
would want to kill me because my grammar would probably
be awful, my punctuation, punctuation would be probably be terrible, and.
Speaker 4: All that stuff.
Speaker 3: So going there, Greg, I hope your wife and daughter
do well.
Speaker 7: I haven't been out to talk to you in a while,
so I hope the family's doing good, and I hope
you're doing well, my friend.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Everything's going well. The school starts for me
on Tuesday, so this is kind of my last hurrahs
before that starts. That's part of the reason why I'm
doing all of this this week for opportunity to plug here.
I was on the Flagship with Wade on Tuesday pwtorch
dot com Parks's take. Later in the week, I covered
two New Japan shows. I was on the aw Redemption
post show last week on SummerSlam post shows tonight, So
I'm fitting everything in here in the last moments before
I head back to school and my free time is
much more limited.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, it's good to see Derek. I tell you all
the time.
Speaker 7: It's always a pleasure. And when I get to tati
on here get to chat with you any time I can.
So yeah, so uh going what you said about Oba, Derek,
I'm with you one hundred percent. That's the one thing
about Brock that I had been had been driving me
crazy honestly about him, even though I love what he's
done over the years, is I just his matches are
all the same and I I just it's it's time
to do something different. And that's the only thing I
didn't like about the match tonight, Greg you said earlier,
is I you know, I feel like I know the
I think the goal was Brock can never lost a
Helena Cell match, and that was the goal to get
over to win beat him and Helena Cell, which is
which I I'm okay with. But I think if you're
gonna have a cell, let's use it a little bit.
Let's get a little bit. I would have been okay
with even a little bit of blood. I'm like, if
you're gonna go these guys wanting to kill each you know,
beat each other up bad. I would have done at
least a little bit more to get that effect. I mean,
they can still do what they were doing in the
midst of.
Speaker 3: The match, but I'm like, give me a little bit more.
Speaker 7: But again, that's what Brock has done is whole the
last two, three, four years, and it's just the way
it's gonna be. And so Oba, like you said, I
saw his match with Moose and NXT and it was
so good. It was so good, so well worked, and
it was just a long match where Oba did multiple
He's got multiple things he's good at, and I just
don't want to get him, like you said, snowball and
just one kind of match.
Speaker 3: It'd be rough on him.
Speaker 1: Before pushing play on the way Keller Pro Wrestling post shows,
check out pw torch dot com and our TV review
section and skim through a full rundown of the TV
show if you didn't see it, that's your way to
get an overview of what happened before you dive into
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That's pw torch dot Com you're home for live TV
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Speaker 4: My other worry to Sean and Greg that I see
is when you kind of make your main event attraction
a guy who's only attraction, where you know he's not
going to wrestle on week to week television. It makes
the build up to matches a lot more difficult. And
then you run into what we have with Roman reigns
and seth rollins, where you know Romans not going to
be wrestling on TV, so you can't have a wrestling
match lead to a deferent chapter in the angle. So
what are you left with? Face to face contract signing promo?
You know, and you don't get like the match leading
to an angle. And I don't want them to think
that Oba is such a novelty that he can't wrestle
on television. I want to see him wrestle on television
like there was something magical about the Attitude era where
Stone called Steve Austin was on television and he wrestled
probably every other week, every other week for two years. Right,
So I tuned in because I know I get to
see Stone Cold and a lot of times I also
get to see Stone Cold wrestle, and I want that
as a top baby face. And Oba's young enough where
there's no reason that you shouldn't be wrestling on television
every week.
Speaker 7: Right, No, I agree, I agree. And about Brock too,
I you brought up you know, could I really think
this needs to be it. I really think he had
a great career. I appreciate everything he brought to the
business of B and UFC of course before you you know,
as well as to B. But I just again, the
matches are the same, and I don't think people have said, well,
you could have braun Breaker beat him, But what does
that do for braun Breaker at this point.
Speaker 3: Everybody's beating Brock at this point. I mean, it doesn't
really do anything for Braun to beat Brock.
Speaker 7: I mean, we've seen Brock lose eight nine matches in
the last four years.
Speaker 3: I just don't think, oh, Bron to me.
Speaker 7: He's already over enough where he's gonna be fine that
he doesn't have to beat Brock to get a big
win to solidify what he can do. We've seen what
he can do already, Russell Punk He's had. I mean, yeah,
he's in the taxing division right now, but he's gonna
get out of that soon and he'll move on to
bigger and better things. So I just think this Brock
had a great career. I think it should end now.
I think I should be it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, look, I think I think you know you
mentioned Broun Breaker, you mentioned and I will mention and
I keep bringing this up on audio. You know, I
thought gun Through versus Brock Lesner was the match for
Summer Slam. You can do that here, So you know,
gun Through versus Lesner I would have an interest in seeing.
But really like the number of really intriguing matches for
Lesner is super limited. And you're right, Sean, like the
cachet of beating Brock Lessner, I don't think is there.
And you know you have Obafemi beating him here and
that's supposed to really catapult O feed me into the stratosphere.
But if you follow that with gun through beating Brock
Lessner or broad Bray beating Brock Listener then retroactively, what
did that over? Femme me win really meant?
Speaker 3: Aut exactly know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: And maybe you know, maybe he's because he's beat him twice,
beat him two out of three matches, maybe that carries
more weight. But you know, I again, I think there
are a couple of matches that I would be interested
in seeing. But I would also be super okay if
Lessner walked away after this. I don't feel like he's
leaving a lot left on the table if he does that.
Speaker 4: And to add to that, because I agree with you,
I would be more than fine if this is Brock's
last match for these reasons. First of all, I'd be
afraid if they are going to set him up for
bron breaker that based on the mentality that you guys
are talking about, where he's already taken a loss and
he's damage, well, then their thought process is going to be,
now you have to sacrifice a few people to build
him back up to dominant so he can lose to Brock. Right,
I was just like, well, is he worse? Is it worse?
Is it worth sacrificing a few people to him, because
that's what they did with John Cena last year yours.
They sacrificed John Cena to build Brock back up, So
it means something when Brock gets beat by obat Rustlemania,
which is a solid mentality, But I'm just kind of like,
do I want to see him run through two guys
so he can lose to another guy and then leave?
And to me, my answer is a simple no. And
also I think that this is this is where I
stand with Brock right now. Is I love the fact
that if this was his last match, he didn't look old.
He didn't look weathered forty nine.
Speaker 3: How is he still looking like that at forty He didn't.
Speaker 4: Look fragile because it felt bad watching the Undertaker in
his last matches because he looked fragile, and it just
didn't feel good as a wrestling fan, and even triple
h he's my favorite wrestler of all time. The last
few matches he was in the ring when he was
running the rope, so I was like, Eh, he doesn't
he doesn't move like he used to. It doesn't feel
like it used to. And there was something beautiful about
Sean Michael's real retirement. He left at the top, and
you got a Sean Michael's performance in his last match,
you got a brock Lessner performance. If this was his
last match. I don't want to see an old, weathered,
tired brock Lessener who it looks like I could beat
him up. I want in my mind to always think
that Brocklessener could chew me up, spit me out, and
eat me as chopped liver and steak for the next
six months. That's what his appeal is. Don't kill the
aura by doing and it only takes one too many,
that one match too many, and you never know when
that match is going to be. And if he ends
it right now, we know it's not one match too many.
So I would get out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm with you. So that's pretty much what I
had on that Oba's a big star.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 7: I just don't have Oba beat up cops anymore. Please,
just don't have Oba beat up any more cops like I.
Speaker 4: Have a fix? Did I set this yesterday in a post?
So if a Hill is going to beat up law enforcement,
I think they should beat up police officers because that
gets heat, right, Like if you beat up police officers
I know in Utah. I like the police officers, my
school cop. He is a wonderful human being. I love
the guy. I hug him every day. He's a great dude.
But if you're gonna have a babyface that has to
beat up law enforcement, just make him ice agents. Like
nobody likes ice agents, so if they beat him up,
we'll all feel good about it. In fact, if you
put like ice agent with like a hat from Minnesota,
I think everyone would feel great and well.
Speaker 3: I'll plead I'll just leave that alone. I wouldn't do it, period.
I just think it's bad. I wouldn't.
Speaker 7: I mean, I think, yeah, I'm not even get involved
in that, but I see what your point is, but
I just don't do it.
Speaker 3: It's not good for him. So other than that, he's
a big star. I'm excited for him.
Speaker 7: Going backwards to the matches, I thought Cody punk again.
Slow for me doesn't mean bad. I think people think,
oh it's if it's slow, it's it's not good. It
was a really good match, really well worked match of
physical match where they were they were wanting to win
the championship and it meant something and it was important.
I thought the table spot. Initially I didn't when I
was when I saw it happen live, I was like,
oh why, I'm nervous, like I don't know if Punk
and Land this, but it made sense, like he tried
to beat him a couple of times, it didn't work.
Speaker 3: He's all right, I gotta get it out here. I
got to end it out here, and it didn't work.
Speaker 7: But then I'm I disagree with you guys in the
fact of I know you said, okay, yeah, there was
only one, you know, ref bump, But I don't excuse
it because there's only one. I don't like every I
feel like ninety five percent of W Well, I mean.
Speaker 2: If you're asking me, would I prefer to see a
match end cleanly without a ref bump? Absolutely, that would
be my preference. But I think it was easier to
tolerate on this particular night because there was only one.
Speaker 3: So I think, I don't. I don't, I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't when it happens in ninety it happens in
ninety five percent of WB title matches, it happens in
most all of them, So if it happened in twenty
percent of title matches, I would excuse it.
Speaker 3: I'd be like, Okay, I can live with it. But
they do it, Greg.
Speaker 7: They do it all the time. It happens every title match.
So I just other than in Little Nature just sells
them so bad. I mean, it just makes them look
even worse. And I love Little NH, but like he
just acts like he got shot by a by a
rifle and like he's never gonna come back.
Speaker 3: When she came back quicker.
Speaker 7: Tonight, I'll give him that he did come back quicker.
But Orton Cody, I I do still like the match
and I do like the feud. But yes, I'm worried
about the matches because of Orton's style. I don't love
his style and certain when he's going up against Cody,
and even though they have backstory, they have all that stuff,
but I'm a little worried that it's going to go
a little south. But one thing, I do hope for
Punk because I like that Punk retained tonight for sure,
you know you know he's got I do hope I
want Kao. I'm worried about Kao's neck. I don't know
how healthy his neck is, but if he's able to
come back, the more I thought about it if you
have Punk and Orton, you do Punk and Orton, and
then to me, you have punkin Kevin Owens.
Speaker 3: That is so fresh.
Speaker 7: If you bring Kevin Owens back, which I know and
I've said I said in the chat, I think last
night even you know, when Ko first comes back, it's
hard not to cheer him because people love Ko, They've
loved him for so long. But if he comes back
and eventually turns back heel, which I think ultimately is
the best spot for Ko punk Ko is such a
fresh feud man we have never seen that. That would
be so fresh.
Speaker 3: We need that WWB right now. We need a few
that we have not seen and that would be so awesome.
Speaker 7: And I hope that Ko can do that and he's
able to come back and make that happen, because I
think that would be a fresh feud for Ko himself
to sink his teeth into is a heel and it's
Punk to come right back at him on the mic
as a baby face. That would be so much fun
and the crowd I think would be What.
Speaker 3: Do you guys think of that? If K was healthy?
Is that a few that you guys would love to see?
Speaker 4: Great?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and That's something that we didn't touch on here tonight.
The reports that Kevin Owens is training to come back.
He's been at the Performance Center working out, so that's
a good sign. He's been out for quite a while
and certainly the roster needs him, you know. It's it's
getting to be where the top stars they've kind of
done their dance with each other and we're kind of
going back to repeats now with Randy whort versus co Yarroads.
So putting Kevin Owens back in that, I mean a
lot of interesting stuff. You talk about Kevin Owens versus
se him Punk, You talk about Kevin Owens, what's his
reaction to Sammy's aim his best friend who has been
just going crazy lately? Is is would Kevin Owens be
considered one of the Sammy's a day one diehards that
he talks about every week. So dropping Kevin Owens into
this atmosphere, I think would be a good would be
really good in terms of just needing a fresh face
at the top of the car, which Kevin Owens can bring.
Speaker 4: I'm the only thing I'm really cautious about Sean is
I think Kevin Owens is at a stage in his
career where he can never really be a heel because
even fans like us, we will boo him knowing that
we like what he's doing, But when we forget about
booing him, we'll still cheer him because he's really good
at what he does, right, So it's not real. It's
never going to be real heat right. And also, like
his defining characteristic is sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't make you a heel.
It makes you witty and it makes people like you.
So when he was at his guest as a heel,
he would say something sarcastic and it was supposed to
get he and we would be like, oh, that was clever. Yeah,
I want to see Kevin some more, right, So I
would not turn him heel. In fact, he is like
one of those guys who I don't think he should
ever be a heel again in his career because I
think it's swimming upstream.
Speaker 2: So one of the things he also one of the
things Office has taken to account. Sorry Derek to butt in,
but you know his coming back from this neck injury,
like that's going to automatically babyface him, and who's going
to want to cheer against this guy who's who's coming
back from this career threatening injury.
Speaker 4: So the Kevin Owens few that I want to see
because it's novel and it keeps the alignment where you
have that feel good aura with him coming back from
a neck injury against a villain that nobody likes. Is
Kevin Owens and Gunter, I think is a perfect is
a perfect matchup. We've never seen it, to my knowledge,
we've never seen it. They both have kind of a
brawling style, but it's it's similar, very but it's very
different where I think it can be very complimentary, right,
it won't contrast, it will compliment. And I want to
see it because I we've never seen it, and I
think it's a great It's a great feud that would
freshen up smack down for months. Really.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So I don't disagree, and that's why I say
when he comes back, the fans are gonna go nuts
for him.
Speaker 3: And that's what I worry.
Speaker 7: If you're you know, if you do turn him heel
or try to turn him heel, I think the fans
would if you're going up against a punk or somebody,
I think the fans would boo him because I think
the fans love punk too, where I think they would if.
Speaker 3: You're sinking your teeth into it, they could.
Speaker 7: But another thing too, is I said this last night,
I would I know we've seen it a lot, but
I feel like it's.
Speaker 3: Been enough time and their roles would be different.
Speaker 7: If you have Ko come back and you have him
as a face against Sammy as a heel, I think
that works better just because we've always seen it. I
mean generally we've always seen it Kao as a heel
Samy as a face. I think it's different here if
you do Ko initially kind of get with him, but
then Sammy does something to him or something.
Speaker 3: Where you know, we side with Ko, we like Ko better,
and we do that. I know it's old.
Speaker 7: I know we've seen it a lot, but I think
the roles reversing would help the feud feel a little
more fresh, and then you build the Ko you know,
gun there later on and then whatever feud you want
to do with him as a face, which I think
will work because you could do Ko and.
Speaker 3: Drew down the line. That makes a lot of sense.
I think that's that's a fresh few.
Speaker 7: We haven't seen much at all, So I think there's
good stuff with Ko and and I just hope he's
healthy and I want him to be healthy because he's
so dag him good and we've missed him for a
long long time and it'd be good to have him back.
Speaker 3: Going back to the women's real.
Speaker 7: Quick, I mean, I'm with you, guys, I didn't love
the match. I just I think Jc's very gotten so
much better. I do think Jayce's improved immensely.
Speaker 3: And I think, I mean again, Nikki was definitely better
than Brie, but not as a low bar. I agree.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 7: I'm not saying she's great by any means. I just
think Page I'm higher. I think Page can still be
a great singles competitor. I still think she has a
high ceiling. I think she's got plenty of time left.
Now it has a single. I think this is gonna work.
Have her beat Nicky, have her move on past that.
I mean, once she beats Nicky moves on. I think
there's a lot of stuff Page can do in the
women's division. There's a lot she could have a Becky few.
There's a lot of.
Speaker 3: Cool stuff she could be doing.
Speaker 7: Man that would feel fresh and feel good, and the
fans would want to get behind Page.
Speaker 3: I really think she has a high ceiling.
Speaker 7: I'm glad she's out of this tag team with the
Bellows because I'm just I was ready for it to
be done, and it's if you're going to bring her back,
do something more than that, that's not enough for me.
Speaker 8: I'm Chris Maitland, I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.
Speaker 2: Every week, Christ and I review a different show 'or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.
Speaker 8: Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.
Speaker 2: You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.
Speaker 8: Find the show on your PW Torch Daily Cast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or or wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com. The one,
the one thing that I think has helped JC Jane
is she's found a style by the pseudo Shawn Michael's c.
Nineteen that the cross She's found that something that works
for her, and you can tell it's making her character
a lot more well rounded to have that with her the.
Speaker 4: Love thing I love about Jason, And this is why
I don't like having her in these six man tags,
because she doesn't get these moments. But I described it
on a post show once where she has such great
facial expressions after every kickout, after every cutoff, where she
has this range where this one she's selling, she's proud,
and she knows how to find the camera without it
looking like she's searching for the camera. This is when
she's frustrated, This is when she's desperate, this is but
she has a different facial expression for every part of
the match and it shows and you can read it.
Like with the sound off, they show Jac's face, the
camera finds it and I go, oh, she's very proud
of herself right now. And the next one, I'm like, oh,
she looks like she's desperate. The other one, I'm like, h,
she looks like she's she's searching in her brain for
the next way to cheat. But she has all of
these facial expressions which help tell the story of the match.
But when you do a six man tag like you
did tonight. She doesn't get any of those moments because
it's just on to the next spot, which in this
match was probably like misstimed or botched, and so even
if she had the facial expression, you wouldn't remember it. Anyways,
I think this does a disservice to her.
Speaker 3: What do you think about Page, Derek? Do you feel
me on Page?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 7: What if she gets in the singles division full time
and does some good stuff there? I think she's got
a lot left in her.
Speaker 4: My very analytical answer, I don't know she's got like
a really she's really interesting in this way where I
felt the same way about aj Lee, where I don't
know how good aj ever was because we never got
a chance to see it. I don't know how good
Page is because like when did we get to see it? Greg,
do you remember, like I remember like she had some
pretty good matches on NXT, but when she got called
up to the main roster, I don't remember like one
time she was given the time, the opportunity, or the
stage to show if she was good or not. So
I really don't know what she has to offer. And
then in AW I saw a few matches, and they
they were below what I thought she was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4: Below where I thought she was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, early with AJ and Charlotte. I loved what she
did there. I thought it was so good.
Speaker 7: I mean I loved those matches. I mean they were
for Diva's division. They were really good, top notch to me.
Speaker 3: I mean, I know you know.
Speaker 7: Wrestling as far as you you've worked matches and stuff,
So I want to take your opinion very strongly.
Speaker 3: But I love a Page.
Speaker 7: When she initially was there the first few years, I
love what she did. I thought she was over. I
thought the fans were behind her, was he l I
thought she got over really well. I liked what she
did in everything. I mean, unless I'm missing something that
you have that I don't have, but I you know,
I thought it was good.
Speaker 3: That was really well done most of it.
Speaker 4: But to go with that Seohan, I would be a
lot more interested to see Page Russell Lyra Valkyria or
Russell soul Ruka. Those are the people I want to
see her against. I don't want to see her against
the Bellas because I think, actually and I think that's
what we're going to get. They're going to bring her down.
She's not going to have the opportunity to be brought up.
But I want to see j C. Javers page give
me like a strap. I love it. He eight to
ten minute television match. And then I'll be able to
see it, and I think all fans will be able.
We'll see when lowered by by having to share time
in six man t lose Greg Greg. Maybe Greg was
so upset than usually. I'm very nice and forgiving, so
I feel bad I went hard on the Bellots.
Speaker 2: I'm here.
Speaker 4: I'm really worried. I'm worried that we're going to see
a page against the Bella Twins, and I'm just gonna
be really grouchy about it.
Speaker 2: I mean, the one way to look at it, Derek,
is the Bellat Twins kind of off doing their own
thing with these other legends versus going against younger wrestler.
You know, we hear a lot of wrestler or a
lot of wrestling fans talk about these veterans need to
be wrestling the younger wrestled. I don't know from a
match quality standpoint, what some of these younger wrestlers are
going to get out of wrestling the Bellas so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Stephane Mcare didn't get anything.
Speaker 2: From so that's that's my point. So I guess if
you're going to have the Bella's active, i'd almost rather
see them. So the pages in the aj Lee's versus
have them kind of you know, you talked about it
that bring down the interuring work of some of the others,
like the Stephanie for Cares or the Lyra of Valkyrias
for example, So that's kind of my my take on it,
and page I don't know, you know, she it was
always the look that got her over right away in NXT,
and she was she was good for NXT, But I
think the point was, you know, when she got to
the main roster, she didn't have those long matches because
it was still in that Diva's era where they were
getting the length of matches. And you know, she's been
out of wrestling for a while. She wrestled sporadically in
ae W, she's come back and wrestled tag team matches
mostly in WWE. So my expectations for her in any
kind of lengthy singles match would honestly be very low,
just because I don't have a body of work to
tell me what she can do at this stage, especially
with you know the layoffs, the injuries that the neck
injury that retired her medically for a long time in WWE.
How does that affect her wrestling a ten to fifteen
minutes singles match against top competition. And you know, she
may have been good during that divis era, but think
of how much the quality has risen in the women's
division since then. And to expect her to wrestle at
that level after age and injury have probably sapped some
of her innerring, I just I can't expect that from
her today in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 4: I think that's fair. And also the question you have
to ask when someone does hit that age limit is
it's like Randy Orton, they find these other ways where
they can do less, but it all means more, right,
But that comes when you build equity with the fan base.
Because I've always said this about Randy Orton. He wrestles
great television matches because he gets three minutes off every
four minutes, right, and those three minutes, like this is
like a magic of a Randy Orton match. During a
commercial break, he probably is doing nothing, but when they
come back, the crowd is always hotter because he knows
how to keep that those fans engaged for three minutes
when he doesn't do anything that's like magic, Like no
one gets to do that. That's like a master. But
he's mastered television wrestling. When I bring Randy Orton up
for this fact, a lot of veterans, like maybe Paige
mastered some of these other qualities that don't work in
aw because they never slow the pace down. So if
you put her in a ten minute singles match against
a woman at her skill level, she has these little
tricks of the trade that you can work like a
great television match that actually, when you recall it, move
or move is not very good, but it invites the
crowd to participate in a way that it feels a
lot better than it actually is. That's like those are
like the true artists of pro wrestling, which you have
to have like ten or fifteen or twenty years under
your belt to get to that level. Maybe she's got that,
but we've never been able to see it before.
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, I'm just more optimistic from what I've seen,
and I know the injuries are an issue, but I
think if she's wrestled a little bit now I think
she's I think she can do a good singles match.
Speaker 3: If you give her the ability to do it, I
think she can do it again. Get past Nicki Bella,
Oh my god, they're gonna wrestle.
Speaker 4: I know it.
Speaker 8: It sucks.
Speaker 7: I'm not excited about it. But once they get past that,
I think Page can have some really good matches with
some good opponents, and I'm excited to see what she
can do going to gun through all this. Really like
the match a lot, really enjoyed it, loved all this
coming out, saw a little bit of his emotion, how
emotional he was before this match. Really was excited to
be able to do this match, and I thought he
did a really nice job. I thought everything looked pretty
even though he was a little worn down at the end.
But again, he hadn't wrestled, like you said, in three years,
so I thought he did really well. I just I mean,
it's not that I like think you guys are wrong
in what you're saying him going back to GM. I
just don't love GMS, and I just think all this
has the talent to go back and rest. And I
think if the fans are into him, and I was
into him, I was behind him. I think you could
put him in and he could be Yeah, he doesn't
have to be a main eventor but they need some
fresh faces on TV, and I think all this can
be that guy where he could still have good matches
against a lot of good opponents, where yeah, he doesn't
win a title, but I just the GM is kind
of yeah, it's okay. I don't dislike the GMS, but like,
if Pierce can be the GM, I'm both shows.
Speaker 3: That's just fine with me. I don't need all this
to be a GM.
Speaker 7: And I think if he's got talent in the ring
and he showed he could do that, why not show
what he can do on ww television for a little while.
He doesn't have to wrestle every week, but man, give
me some good fews with him, and if he gets
in the main event every now and then, that's good.
Speaker 3: It's fine.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's another fresh face w B hasn't had
in a while, and I'm okay with it. I would
like to see him wrestle for a bit, but if
he doesn't, again, if he doesn't and he ends up
the GM again, like he's done a nice job as
the GM. Like I can live with it, but I
would love to see him wrestle.
Speaker 3: He saw what he could do. I think it'd be fun.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm making the same argument that I
made in the Rhodes Punk Match. It's not that I
love gms, like we got rid of gms, the characters.
I'd be fine with it, but WWE has decided that
gms are necessary for their shows. And Nick Alice does
a fantastic job, and you know you are make the
argument fresh faces. Nicholas is thirty nine. Is he a
fresh face in w w E? Yeah, but he's not
going to help lower He's not going to help solve
the problem of WWE's top stars being over aged and
very needing to promote for within.
Speaker 4: Are you trying to say that everybody over thirty nine
we were just good for nothing? Because I'm you're forty five, Greg,
How old are you?
Speaker 2: I'm forty one, So so I'm speaking of myself here too.
Speaker 4: Greg. I'm just saying this, Greg, I'm thinking hard. Now.
We both wear glasses, we're both white, we both have
tank tops.
Speaker 2: We both have a stunning physiques.
Speaker 4: We're we might be we might be twins.
Speaker 2: I see the resemblance definitely. But anyway, yes, nick allis uh.
You know the same thing with the interference, right. I
don't argue for interference, but it's tolerable when it happens
once in a while. I don't argue for general manager positions,
but it's tolerable if you have ones that are as
good as Nickolas and Adam Pierce are in their roles,
and that are largely there as traffic cops. You know,
they're not influencing the outcomes of matches. They're not overly
babyface or overly heel. I think both have done a
nice job of towing that line pretty well. And I
think you know, in the canon of WWE, as I
argued earlier, the GM positions are very important. They're a
very important role on television, and you could have Adam
pierced too. It does appear that w W wants one
for each show to have kind of the butting of
the heads every once in a while, right the competition aspect,
we do theoretically at least still have two brands separate brands.
So again, I'd prefer all this as the GM as
opposed to just kind of throwing him out there. I
like Derek's idea of having him wrestle maybe once or
twice a year and kind of limiting to that to
that for the special occasions, because you know, when Lesler leaves,
you have one fewer special occasion wrestler. And if you
could use Nick Alldis in that role based on fan
reaction here, based on the plauts he's getting for his performance,
I think he could slip into that special occasion role
that Lesner has held for quite a while.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Greg, I'll go one step further when it
comes to GMS. I can't believe I'm saying this, given
how sick of GMS I was for how long is
in my wrestling fandom. I like the role now and
I think like it makes the show feel more logical
to me, like they are the conduit that bridges the
gap of making every match that happens on the show
makes sense, and it's like a very important role that
keeps the show moving. Like Triple HS described, pro wrestling
is not a sport. It's a television show about a sport.
And whether you support that comment or you oppose it,
when you think hard and you step back, that is
exactly what it is. And the GM character is a
side character, but an important character on that television show,
and Nick all the Sadana Pierce both do a great
job with that, sayd Sean. If Nick does and they
feel that it's appropriate for him to have a more
traditional in ring wrestling role, I'm not opposed to it.
I don't think it's a terrible idea. I'm interested in it.
When he wrestled, i'd be interested. I just fear that
it would get older faster than we It would get
older a lot faster than we hoped it would like.
Its shelf life is not going to be as long
as I want it to be, or that I hope
it would be.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, and I and that's why I said initially, like
you know, if they go back to GM, it's it's
fine because he hasn't done a really nice job as
a GM, so I'm not like against it, and knowing
he lost this match, which he should have, I mean,
I'm not I don't think he should have be gun
through anyway.
Speaker 3: So it's like, Okay, you know he GUNTHERER made a
man up, he did, he had a good he did
a great job, you know, go back to his role
as initially, you know, and then.
Speaker 7: Like like my friend said in the chat, you know,
if he's the GM and somebody else comes up to
him and does that and challenges his manhood. He'll have
a match with him too or something, you know, if
it's if it needs being and so I'm okay with it.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can live with that.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 7: The second match was was was fine. Like you said,
guys said, I mean, I'm kind of with you. I mean,
I ellen Knight's always going to be cheered right now.
I think ellen Knight needs to in a bigger spot
than he's in. It's just the problem of like you said,
who we're gonna reot for who we do And I
don't know like jay Us, so I don't want to
cheat right now.
Speaker 4: I know that.
Speaker 3: I just his matches just annoy the crap out of me.
I just don't like him.
Speaker 7: Jacobi too is a star right now too, but I
don't know where he's going.
Speaker 3: I don't know who he is. I don't know what
he is about.
Speaker 7: I just bloodline stuff, just you know. Is I mean,
we'll see how it plays out, but I'm not happy
about that. So but I'm I'm I'm willing to let
it play out. And then with the first match with
EO and Live, I really enjoyed it a lot. Leo
just makes me smile. She's so fun in the ring.
She knows what she's doing, she knows who she is.
I thought the vignettes to lead to the match were good,
really well done. And I think Lives better than a
lot of people give her credit for.
Speaker 3: I like Live a lot. I don't know what the
hate is on her. I don't get it. Really.
Speaker 7: The character, yes, is great, but the end ring has
been really good the last year. I it's not her fault.
She hasn't gotten title matches, you know, had her title defenses.
That's the booking, just not giving her title defenses. I
mean she could easily defend the title multiple times a week,
multiple times a month. I mean it's she's good in
the ring. I mean she's shown that multiple times over
the last year. I don't know what the I just
hear that a lot like Lives not good in the ring,
and I just don't.
Speaker 3: I don't agree. I've seen it. She's good in the ring.
Is she Io?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 7: But she doesn't have to be IO. She just has
to be very good in the ring. She's a great heel. Yes,
I know you were talking about her, you know, maybe
turning face against Roxanne. I would turn I'd have Roxanne
Ttern face. She's a way more natural face. Live is
so good as a heel right now. I wouldn't change
it for a while.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sean, I want to agree with you. I just
don't think she's got enough chances to prove it. And
I think that's where a lot of people. I think
a lot of people it's kind of like the memory
where people remember her two or three years ago when
she wasn't that good. She was struggling to find her footing,
she was having a lot of you know, miss time spots,
little snaffoos here and there, and then they set their
opinion that lives not very good. And even though that
she's approved in front of their eyes, she hasn't had
those enough chances on pl major events to have that
fifteen minute match where the nay seers have to say, oh, yeah,
I was wrong, because that's how she's won me over.
She had a few matches at the beginning of the
year that I thought were really strong. Right before her injury,
she had some matches that I thought were really strong.
And even I'll say this, she had the best match
against soul Ruka that soul Ruca's had since she's on
the main roster and it was just to know nothing
night on Raw. But Sol didn't blow any spots during
that match because Liver Live was right there for every move,
because it takes two to hit a spot and it
takes two to screw up the spot. And when it
came to Live Live didn't let her screw up any spot.
She was in position for everything. So a lot is
to say about Live's gotten better, but she needs more
chances to prove that she has, and I think that
will win over more of the people who say that
she's not good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sean, anything else for us tonight?
Speaker 3: I think I did as much as I could.
Speaker 4: Guys. It's always fun.
Speaker 7: It's always a pleasure. I should be on tomorrow night
too as well, unless something weird happens.
Speaker 3: But uh no, it was fun. It was a good night.
It was a fun night for me.
Speaker 7: I really enjoyed it at night too. Has a lot
to live up to you. I'm worried about it, but
we will see where it goes.
Speaker 4: Guys.
Speaker 7: Derek always fun, Greg always get to talk to my man.
Hopefully I get to talk to you guys tomorrow.
Speaker 4: So Sean, nextly getting the memo. Brother, It's it's August.
Tank tops got you.
Speaker 2: I left you on hold for so long waiting for
you to get your tank top out.
Speaker 4: And it's one hundred and two degrees today in Utah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was pretty hot here too, But I don't
I've never been a tank top person because again I
don't have a physique, so I don't want to show well.
Speaker 4: I mean, hey, man, it's like air conditioning all the time.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: You guys are a pleasure man. I always want to
taught you.
Speaker 2: Great, Sean.
Speaker 4: Thanks, Thanks Sean.
Speaker 2: All Right, one more thing to get to Derek. Before
we close up shop for Tonight's an email from John
from New York. He says, Hi, Greg and Derek, John
from New York old emailer on Wrestling Night in America
when you hosted weekly Greg, I hope you're both doing well.
Generally watchable night one of SummerSlam and no major complaints
from me. But while I really liked to Live EO
match and thought it was what Eo Vicaire should have
been aiming for at WrestleMania, I was quite disappointed by
the finish. Live is very good in the ring and
improved a lot in her character work and She's conventionally
very attractive, so I could see why WW likes her
as part of an ensemble, but why is she winning
in world title matches over someone the commentators and fans
call the best wrestler in the world. Live is like
a six or seven out of ten in terms of
overall level as a performer, and she's just simply not
on the level of an Eo Sky or Ria Ripley
or Charlotte Flair. Is as simple as that. It took
her ten years of chance after a chance to improve
that others didn't get for a variety of reasons, to
get to the level of many current mean event stars
have been at for years. She sells well, she smooth
in the ring, and I like her as a talent
and I'm honestly a fan of hers, But I think
WWE pushes her above her skill level largely because she's
conventionally attractive. I don't like thinking it, as it feels
like disservice to live, and I honestly don't mean it
that way, as she obviously works hard. Your thoughts on
my points on Live and EO. Look, I mean if
this was if this was a real sport, then EO
Sky would probably win Overlive Moregan every time. But the
nature of a worked product like WWE and professional wrestling
is you could have someone who is not as good
as their opponent still win. Otherwise they would be just
kind of foregone conclusions and you'd be you know, they'd
have a match and be like scoring, you'd hold up
ten or you'd hold up a seven. Then the person
these points would win who performed better in that match.
So you know, obviously John is I think, not buying
what Sean is selling in terms of Live being improved
to the level that that he believes she has. So
when you have someone who at least John views and
I think we both view as not as good as EO.
Sky right overall, does not to say Live Morgan is bad.
I'm not hating on Live Morgan, but I mean that's
just my opinion. Obviously others can can disagree. But when
you see that difference that I mean levels of difference
here between EO. Sky and Live Morgan, do you see
any problem with a Live Morgan level competitor beating an
Eosky level competitor.
Speaker 4: No, for these two reasons, and I've discussed them, but
I'll frame it different. First of all, in Cannon the
way that she won tonight with there was interference, but
in the end, she's the one who hit her moves
in pandeo. That builds up credibility, and that's what the
fans who accept everything as a real sport, but also
the fans like us who are analyzing things. She was
given enough time and enough platform, and she performed at
a level tonight where she won over more of the
people who are uncertain about her in ring ability by
having a really good match. The only thing I'll push
back on against it was his name, John greg yes is.
I think sometimes we confuse as wrestling fans the importance
of hitting really flashy moves. Liv is never going to
be the person who hits the moon Salt. She's not
going to do the Si Moon Salt to the outside
of the ring. She's not going to do the springboard dropkick.
That doesn't mean that she's not a competent worker. Okay,
the people who hold matches together. So I finally watched
WWE Unril. I haven't watched season one or season two,
but I met my parents' house while they're in Scotland
for two weeks and I have nothing to do until
school starts on the tent And so I watched season
three and Triple H says that liv Morgan is a
Ring ja general is the phrase that he used, and
I think a lot of fans would give that that
look that you just gave Greg. I'll say that if
somebody who's in the office, who works with the producers,
works with the other talent, putshes matches together, produces the matches,
and they have those people that they can rely on
and say, you're the Ring General when something goes bad,
We're relying on you to fix it. Triple H knows
if she's a Ring general. We have no idea who
the Ring generals are. We have no idea. We have
no idea who are the glue in matches. We pretend
like we know, but you would have to ask the
people who are on the mics planning the matches, putting
the stuff together, and they don't have to go back
and forth all the time and remembering people are reminding
people of their spots. So if Triple H says that
live more than the Ring General, he knows, we don't, ye,
which means she's a lot more valuable than we think
she is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and that's that's a good barometer I think
of and a good explanation for why she's pushed the
way she is. I think there's some people who are
a little bit conveyed why she's pushed. Yes, and trust
in professional wrestling is a big deal. So there, there
you go, A good place to end it. Derek, appreciate
you hopping on for the summer Slim Night one post show.
I don't know who's going to be hosting tomorrow. It's
not going to be me, so I'm sure there will
be one after Night to tomorrow. But as has been said,
that two has a lot to live up to. Derek,
I know you're on these post shows every once in
a while with Wade during the week, and he wrote
up the tonight's show for p tw B Torch dot com.
Anything else for the Torch you want to plug, well,
I've got you.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I write a weekly article called Ben Now and Forever.
I enjoy writing it, so if you read it, it
would make me happy because that makes it more validating
to me. You up to tell me it's good. You
could tell me it sucks. I got a thick skin,
not just from years of sun exposure. But because I'm
old too, I'm like leather, but I enjoy writing it,
so if you read it, that would be great too.
But I love the Torch community. I think everyone is
very respectful and even if we disagree, it leads to
fruitful and enjoyable dialogue, not conflict, which is something that
all America should take, should take lesson and advice for.
Speaker 2: I want to stand up in salute right now. That
was very well done. Yeah right, appreciate it and everybody
look forward to talking again tomorrow night for Summer Slam
Night too. I am for Rustling Torch columns Greg Parks
and he is p tw B torch dot com contributor
to Derek Covered and until next time. Signing off here
for the Summer Slam Night one post show.
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