1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:17,399 other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 3: I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,879 Speaker 2: Parkway murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,519 Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 4: Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. 15 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,679 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 6: We're joined today by journalist and podcaster Andrew Goldman, here 17 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:53,920 to talk about his podcast Dead Certain The Martha Moxley Murder. 18 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:55,439 Speaker 4: Andrew, thank you for joining us. 19 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 3: Oh, it's my great pleasure. Thank you for having me. 20 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 6: Start by telling us a little bit about your life 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,599 as a journalist. I find journalists particularly fascinating, and your 22 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,920 career sure sounds like an interesting one. 23 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,359 Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about it. 24 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 7: It's since I was since I graduated from the University 25 00:01:13,519 --> 00:01:16,959 of Texas one hundred years ago. I'm fifty three years old, 26 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,959 and I can never remember what years things were. But 27 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,920 I've been a magazine journalist, which, as you probably know, 28 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:25,200 as the years have gone on, has become more and 29 00:01:25,239 --> 00:01:28,120 more difficult to do because the industry doesn't really exist anymore. 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,799 But I'm a long form narrative journalist. I started my 31 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,239 career at Boston Magazine. I went to a small but 32 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,959 oddly influential little newspaper in Manhattan called The New York Observer. 33 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,200 From there, I went to the ill fated Talk magazine, 34 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,280 working for Tina Brown. I worked for New York Magazine 35 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,000 for a long pert I wrote for years. I was 36 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,280 like one of the sole male voices at l magazine, 37 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,879 where I started a column where I interviewed men about sex. 38 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:58,200 And from there I actually went to the New York 39 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,959 Times magazine, where I did there Talk column, which is 40 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:05,680 the weekly one page interview Q and A. And I 41 00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:09,360 did that for about a little under two years until 42 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,919 I got I got There's a whole other podcast. But 43 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,319 I got fired partially for a bad tweet, and partially 44 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,199 because after the bad tweet, after I'd apologize to everyone, 45 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,840 I did an interview with an influential advertiser who didn't 46 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:27,759 like how the interview went, and that kind of ended 47 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:31,080 it there for me. So that was twenty thirteen and 48 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,719 I was, I guess you would call it in Hollywood. 49 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:36,479 My career was a bit and turnaround because I was 50 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,680 over forty and I was trying to get magazine work 51 00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:45,479 what was left of it. And that was around and 52 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,719 in twenty fifteen is when I started on this Moxley 53 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,360 Martha Moxley journey, which is when I got in touch 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,479 with Bobby Kennedy, who was a friend of a friend, 55 00:02:54,719 --> 00:02:56,759 or Bobby Kennedy got in touch with me, i should say, 56 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,800 and said that he needed help writing a book on 57 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,479 his cousin, Michael Skeekel, who his first cousin, Michael Skekel, 58 00:03:04,479 --> 00:03:07,400 who had been convicted of murder in two thousand and 59 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:10,400 two of a murder that had happened many years before 60 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:12,800 that in nineteen seventy five, of a neighbor of his 61 00:03:12,879 --> 00:03:16,280 in Greenwich, Connecticut named Martha Moxley. And I think I actually, 62 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,000 I think I answered too much of your question, I 63 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,680 went too far, But so I think that's just giving 64 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,400 a little context as to where my head was when 65 00:03:23,439 --> 00:03:27,840 this project came to me, which was it was a 66 00:03:28,039 --> 00:03:32,159 really enticing project for a lot of reasons, but it 67 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,360 was also a project that I was I had some 68 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:40,840 major trepidations about doing for a few reasons, one of 69 00:03:40,879 --> 00:03:43,680 which was that I was convinced that I was going 70 00:03:43,719 --> 00:03:46,919 to try to write a book with a Kennedy trying 71 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,599 to exculpate publicly his cousin, who I was convinced was guilty. 72 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:53,319 It was a very famous case and it came in 73 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,639 two thousand and two, and I definitely followed it in 74 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,319 the media, and it just seemed to me absolutely that 75 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,599 if they had been able to prosecute and win a 76 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:05,680 conviction in two thousand and two for nineteen seventy five murder, 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,280 everything in the media told me that they'd found the 78 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,919 right guy. And I'm fascinated with the Kennedy family, but 79 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,599 I also know enough about the Kennedy family to know 80 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,120 that over the years since the JFK days, they've used 81 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,800 journalists to whitewash their careers in a lot of ways. 82 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:25,519 The candidates have done have a long history of doing 83 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,480 questionable and sometimes unforgivable things. I think journalists were complicit 84 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,759 in keeping the secret of JFK's infidelity. And I think 85 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,360 that there was that the Kennedys were always really good 86 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,199 at inviting journalists over and having a good time with 87 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,160 them and paaling around with them. And I think that 88 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:46,199 there were many situations where the Kennedys it feels like 89 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,360 people felt like they got away with murder, not literal murder. 90 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:52,000 But there was of course Ted Kennedy and Chap Equittic 91 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,839 where Ted Kennedy left drove his car into the drink 92 00:04:56,959 --> 00:05:01,639 with a young woman and basically disappeared and didn't seem 93 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,160 to didn't alert the authorities and tried to disappear and 94 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:07,639 nothing really happened to him. And then there was of 95 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,959 course William Kennedy Smith, who was who was tried for 96 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,360 murder I think, and tried for rape in nineteen ninety one, 97 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,600 and people feel like he got off because the Kennedys 98 00:05:16,639 --> 00:05:20,000 helped him and that he had a really great defense attorney. 99 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,439 And I think people were convinced that he got away 100 00:05:22,439 --> 00:05:25,920 with rape. And so when you look at the when 101 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,680 you look at people actually going down the list of 102 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,800 all the Kennedy misdeeds, and I've seen this a lot 103 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,600 on social media, always at the end of the list, 104 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:34,439 and then there's Michael Skaigel kennedy cousin who killed his neighbor, 105 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:38,720 and so I was I probably felt very much the 106 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:40,879 way a lot of people felt in two thousand and two, 107 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:43,439 which is God, finally one of these Kennedys is going 108 00:05:43,519 --> 00:05:47,639 to pay for his crimes. So anyway, so that's how 109 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:50,920 that I've explained my journalism career. And I've gotten this book. 110 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,800 I'm sorry, it was quite a bit nice, no. 111 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 6: And I'm I'm definitely happy for the context, and I 112 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,279 will definitely be the first to admit that as soon 113 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,560 as I finished with Dead Certain, I said to myself, God, 114 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,439 I hope he does one on chap Equittic, because I 115 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,199 want the whole story on chap Equittic. 116 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,199 Speaker 4: I want every bit of it. And if you are 117 00:06:10,399 --> 00:06:12,199 willing to do that, please do you let me. 118 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 7: Currently, I am currently as unemployed as I was when 119 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,360 Bobby Kennedy reached me in twenty fifteen, and there's no 120 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:22,360 immediate there's no immediate plans for a season two of 121 00:06:22,399 --> 00:06:26,319 Dead Certain, So I am dying to figure out a 122 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,480 new I've had some people approach me with ideas. 123 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:34,959 Speaker 6: I think dead certain chapiquittic is something great idea could do. Yeah, 124 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,639 if you need a little research assistant on that and 125 00:06:37,639 --> 00:06:38,399 do let me know. 126 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 7: Would love to get Okay. 127 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: All right, you two are already for fomenting doing business plans. 128 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 4: Here doing business. 129 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: Before we dive down too far into the case, which 130 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,519 we're both very interested in doing, let me just start 131 00:06:53,519 --> 00:06:58,600 off with this question, Andrew, why a podcast? 132 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:00,759 Speaker 3: Why a podcast? 133 00:07:01,439 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 7: I'd helped Bobby Kennedy write his twenty sixteen book called Frame, 134 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,680 and Bobby had come to me with very specific ideas 135 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:13,800 about what he wanted to do in the book, and 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,519 I feel like fleshed out much of the reporting in it, 137 00:07:18,839 --> 00:07:24,079 and it was not the He hadn't done a great 138 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,920 deal of the reporting, and I really dug into the 139 00:07:27,279 --> 00:07:31,240 documentary reporting and some of the interviewing. I felt like 140 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:33,879 because of the time constraints of the book, and I 141 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:36,000 think from probably start to finish, I worked on it 142 00:07:36,079 --> 00:07:38,040 six months, I felt like I had a hell of 143 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:40,160 a lot more work to do on it, and I 144 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,399 felt and my conclusions were actually considerably different than Bobby's 145 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:49,519 and As I tell everybody, Bobby is a very controversial figure. 146 00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:52,800 But as I tell anybody who ever asks I say, 147 00:07:52,879 --> 00:07:55,000 I actually had a really I had a very decent 148 00:07:55,079 --> 00:07:58,519 time working with Bobby. We talked every day for many 149 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,480 months during the making of this. He was not nearly 150 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:05,399 as entitled as I assumed he could be given his name. 151 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: And it was actually a very good experience. 152 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 7: But the book represents his feelings and the book does 153 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:14,120 not represent my feelings. He had very specific ideas of 154 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,800 how the crime went down. I disagreed with him, and 155 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:19,040 I didn't do it forcefully because his name was going 156 00:08:19,079 --> 00:08:21,040 to be on the book. So he wrote his book 157 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,399 and he put out his theory of the crime, and 158 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,439 I felt like there was a lot more reporting to do, 159 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,120 and I felt the last thing I wanted to do 160 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,560 was to jump in and do another book about it. 161 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:36,840 And so seemed like at the time, because this is 162 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,039 about a ten year odyssey, and from a business perspective, 163 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,799 at that particular moment when I was considering doing it, 164 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:48,360 it actually seemed like a This was in the years 165 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:52,279 not long after Cereal, when all the major media companies 166 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,000 were putting a great deal. Like all of the media 167 00:08:55,039 --> 00:08:57,000 companies were taking all of their money out of print 168 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,519 and putting it into this part. They were chasing the 169 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:00,440 serial money. 170 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:00,799 Speaker 3: Right. 171 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 7: There were years where these major podcasting companies would put 172 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,759 the kind of money required for a major reporting endeavor 173 00:09:10,039 --> 00:09:12,320 like Cereal, and I think they did this for a 174 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,039 few years and realized how expensive they were and how 175 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,399 much less expensive it was to have celebrities talking to 176 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,759 their friends and how much money could come much more easily. 177 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:26,360 So by the time I actually was able to do 178 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,679 the podcast, which involved a lot of legal issues with 179 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,120 Michael Skaigel, the gravy train had basically had stopped, and 180 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,120 so it was actually it was incredibly difficult to get 181 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,240 this podcast made. It was turned down by I think 182 00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:43,039 you could name any major podcast distributor and it was 183 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,320 turned down by them. And yeah, like everybody, Like I 184 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,799 had zooms with everybody, and I just and I knew 185 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:55,440 I I was having zooms with people who I think 186 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,840 were probably on average, probably twenty years younger than me, 187 00:09:57,879 --> 00:10:00,360 who'd never heard of the crime, and I I knew, 188 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:03,639 after having delved into it, that it was absolutely the 189 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,919 most amazing story I'd ever heard before. And I felt 190 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:08,000 like I was trying to get that through in these 191 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,360 zooms and I was just looking at these people with 192 00:10:10,519 --> 00:10:15,360 kind of dead eyes, and nobody got it. Nobody got it, 193 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,720 and so I guess I'm still a child. But I 194 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:21,200 think part of what I kind of love about the 195 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,720 success of this podcast is that we showed them. Yes, 196 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:30,000 thank god NBC Studios came along. We had it was 197 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:33,440 a really difficult road to get the podcast made, which 198 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,320 involved me finding a finally finding a partner. It seemed 199 00:10:38,399 --> 00:10:43,159 like the last deal in twenty twenty three in podcasting. 200 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,039 We found a partner, and I didn't anticipate. I thought, 201 00:10:47,039 --> 00:10:48,919 once we found a partner, that means we're making this show. 202 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,960 But what I didn't anticipate is that three months into 203 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,519 the show, they'd send me an email being like, you 204 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,080 know what, we just realized we don't have the money 205 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:54,559 to make this. 206 00:10:55,039 --> 00:10:55,919 Speaker 2: Oh great. 207 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,879 Speaker 7: Two days two days late, my agent fired me via 208 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,039 email because I think that she knew that she couldn't 209 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,200 sell it, and I don't think she particularly liked me. 210 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,840 But that's a whole other story. But I decided to 211 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,879 self finance the production of a pilot, and that's what 212 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,679 NBC got, and that's what and they really responded to it. 213 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,159 Speaker 6: Wow, and I do when you said you were zuoming 214 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,159 with people twenty years younger. One of the things I'm 215 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,559 anticipating is that we are going to have people listening 216 00:11:27,639 --> 00:11:30,360 who are not going in to who Martha Moxley is 217 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:33,639 and why we're still why are we still talking about 218 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:36,320 the case. And I think it is because it's more 219 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,879 than there is that Kennedy connection. I'm a high school 220 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:42,399 teacher by day, and most of these kids do not 221 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,679 have any interest in the Kennedys, not the way my 222 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,200 generation does. I'm sure that we're going to have people 223 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:51,159 who ask who's Martha Moxley and why she connected to 224 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:54,039 the Kennedy's, and also, why do I care for any 225 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,600 of our listeners who may not be aware just give 226 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,279 us a brief friendown of who is Martha Moxley? 227 00:11:59,320 --> 00:11:59,639 Speaker 3: Sure. 228 00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 7: Martha Moxley was a fifteen year old in nineteen seventy five. 229 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:17,480 She was a vivacious, apparently very kind, really lovely, blonde, 230 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:23,159 beautiful girl that was I think very popular with in 231 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,440 the minds of many boys in Greenwich. She just moved 232 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,200 from Piedmont, California, eighteen months before to Greenwich, Connecticut, which 233 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,720 is one of, if not It's one of the wealthiest 234 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,840 towns in the East Coast, and it's a suburb of 235 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:40,240 New York City. So many Greenwich many people who live 236 00:12:40,279 --> 00:12:42,919 in Greenwich, especially in the seventies. I think that when 237 00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:44,840 the seventies, the last thing anybody would ever want to 238 00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:46,480 do is live in New York City, which was a 239 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:50,080 real hellhole. So Greenwich was a great place where you 240 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,000 could go in on the Metro North and you could 241 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,639 work in the city and then come back to Greenwich. 242 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,600 Martha and her family moved from Piedmont in I think 243 00:12:57,919 --> 00:13:02,320 late nineteen seventy three. Her father was very successful in 244 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,039 the accounting company to Dross and he had been relocated 245 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,799 from California to head the New York office, and it 246 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,440 was a very big job for him, and so he 247 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,120 moved his family from not only to Greenwich, but to Bellhaven, 248 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,120 which is a small enclave of Greenwich. It's only about 249 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:20,399 one hundred and twenty houses. I guess you could call 250 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,399 it gated, because they do have gates going in and 251 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:24,559 out of it, although very poorous gates. 252 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 3: The security people I don't think were very effective. But 253 00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:28,960 it was. 254 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 7: Probably one of the most beautiful, one of the most idyllic, 255 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,240 one of the wealthiest places on the East Coast that 256 00:13:36,279 --> 00:13:39,879 somebody could live, and presumably one of the safest. Yeah, 257 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,840 you would think one would think one would assume it 258 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,399 was one of the safest, But there had been no 259 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:46,360 That's the thing. That's the thing that will come into 260 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,559 play with this case is that there had been no 261 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,840 murders in Greenwich in over twenty years, which I think 262 00:13:51,919 --> 00:13:57,960 would mean that you're the law enforcement would be perhaps 263 00:13:58,039 --> 00:13:59,960 unprepared for a murder, which they turned out they were. 264 00:14:00,279 --> 00:14:03,440 But so anyway, so Martha Moxley moved to Greenwich, Connecticut. 265 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,720 She got embraces off about six months before October thirtieth. 266 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,759 As her diary shows, she was incredibly popular among the 267 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:14,720 boys in Greenwich, and she was, I think her friends 268 00:14:14,759 --> 00:14:16,919 would say, was a big flirt which I think many 269 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:22,399 fifteen year olds are. And I just want to be 270 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,759 clear that Martha was, from everything I know, incredibly special girl. 271 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,360 And I think her flirtation, I think that she was 272 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:36,559 perhaps didn't understand exactly how powerful she was or how 273 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,159 many men and boys were attracted to her. So she 274 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,879 had she had everybody in Greenwich and Bellhaven kind of 275 00:14:44,879 --> 00:14:48,480 pursuing her. Her neighbors. About two hundred yards from her 276 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,200 lived a family called the Scalele family, and the scale 277 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,879 family was like seven kids, big Catholic family, now the Scagles. 278 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,000 Michael Skeagle, who was convicted of the murder in two 279 00:14:59,039 --> 00:15:01,559 thousand and two, is one of the sons, but too 280 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,080 many kids. And the father of the Scalekeles is a 281 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,039 guy named Rushton Skekell, who was the younger brother of 282 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,000 Ethel Skekell, who went on to marry Bobby Kennedy in 283 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,519 nineteen fifty. So when they say that Michael Skeakeell was 284 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:17,759 a Kennedy, he was indeed a Kennedy cousin because his 285 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:22,159 his aunt had married Bobby Kennedy in nineteen sixty. And 286 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,919 what I think people are often surprised about is that 287 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,960 the Skeakle family was at that moment in time far 288 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:31,320 wealthier than the Kennedy family. 289 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: Skegle, I'm surprised by that. Yeah, when you mentioned it. 290 00:15:34,679 --> 00:15:40,559 Speaker 7: Yeah, Michael Rushton's father, father, George Skekell, started a company 291 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,360 called Great Lakes Carbon and Cole And he was just 292 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:45,039 one of these guys. He's in the vein of the 293 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,120 Koch brothers. It's all like very kind of petroleum kind 294 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,639 of things that you never consider about all these processes. 295 00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:54,559 Everything he touched turned to gold. The man made an 296 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:57,840 absolute fortune, and I think a lot more than Joe 297 00:15:57,919 --> 00:16:00,679 Kennedy did. And the different it's between I think the 298 00:16:00,679 --> 00:16:04,600 Scaleles and the Kennedy's were a What made I think 299 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:09,480 that the marriage ethel marrying into the Kennedy's, what made 300 00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:13,360 for some interesting dynamics between the families is how different 301 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:17,399 the families were. The Scicles were rock ribbed Republicans, as 302 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,720 Republican as you can imagine. I really think that they 303 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,879 thought that George Skekel, the patriarch, thought FDR was like Satan, 304 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:28,000 whereas Satan in the Kennedy family. And also George Skekel 305 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:32,559 I think said one of his mottos, ironically, given how 306 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:36,200 Michael Skekele ultimately was convicted because of his mouth, George 307 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,279 Skekele's motto was you can't quote silence. So whereas the 308 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,240 Kennedy's were ultra into publicity, the Scalles were incredibly quiet 309 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:48,679 and flew very below the radar. So you know, there 310 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,200 are these pictures that you have. The Kennedy's and the 311 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,000 Scales never got along but there are many pictures of 312 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,360 Jack Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy flying around und in Great 313 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:04,559 Lakes Carbon's planes, for instance, So they benefited somewhat from 314 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:09,160 the association, but there was always discomfort between the families. 315 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,160 Does that help it all about? 316 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: Martha? 317 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 6: Did you actually segued right into the next question I 318 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,559 was going to ask, which is the Kennedy connection? The 319 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,000 big question I guess that I have is to you 320 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,880 feel like this kind of all is adjacent to the 321 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:29,920 Kennedy curse that so many people have talked about over 322 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:30,319 the year. 323 00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 7: As I say in the podcast, I think that I've 324 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:36,839 thought about the scales a lot, and I've thought people 325 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,680 talk about the misadventures of the Kennedys and how all 326 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,440 of them died, and there was a certain level of recklessness. 327 00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:46,119 The scales of Kennedy didn't have much in common except 328 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,799 for I think recklessness and fearlessness and a lot of Scalles. 329 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 3: The Scaleles were. 330 00:17:51,519 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 7: A very big drinking family, and a lot of Scaleles 331 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,119 died in circumstances that I think could be partially related 332 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,440 to their alcoholism. Sholes like dying. I think rush scycle 333 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:06,960 went partying with his brother in law to celebrate the 334 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,000 birth of his nephew, and they did an all nighter, 335 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:13,839 a couple of all nighters in the weekend, and his 336 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,680 and his brother in law, his brother in law's daughter 337 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,319 I think, went to wake him up in the morning 338 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:19,160 and he was dead. 339 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 3: He died. He died. 340 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 7: I think he died literally from a hangover. And there's 341 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,079 a number of stories in the Skeyholes background like this. 342 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:30,279 There was an aunt who died choking on a piece 343 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:34,400 of shish Kebob George Skaykle, the patriarch, and his wife 344 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,359 Big Anne, were killed in an airplane crash in one 345 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,400 of the great late planes, which was obviously horrible. And 346 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,759 then the person who took over the company, his son, 347 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,160 George Junior, about a decade and a half later, and 348 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,759 I think nineteen sixty eight, died in a small plane crash. 349 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,799 I think that it's I often thought to myself, Is 350 00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:58,119 it possible that in nineteen sixty when these two families 351 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,200 were united, that the church in Saint Mary's on Greenwich 352 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,440 Avenue and granted Its possible that the Scalicell curse passed 353 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,279 into the Kennedys. Obviously there have been Kennedy fatalities before that. 354 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,079 But I think that if you're looking at body counts, 355 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:15,000 I think the Scaleles definitely are equal to the Kennedys 356 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,759 in terms of body count for misadventures. 357 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 358 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:29,960 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 359 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,319 mindover Murder. Funny when you mentioned the private plane thing, 360 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,480 I just winced, because a lot of moneyed people end 361 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:45,240 up dying in these small plane accidents, whereas traveling on 362 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,640 a major carrier rarely do you end up dead. But 363 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,920 it's amazing how many people, including members of the Kennedy family, 364 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,839 have been killed in small plane crashes. 365 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,799 Speaker 3: I know, isn't it? 366 00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:59,079 Speaker 7: And rock stars and helicopters. I've never want to get 367 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,160 in a helicopter. No, I yeah, it's no. It's absolutely amazing, 368 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,279 And I think it brings up a point, which is 369 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:12,960 this is I think people I think naturally, having never 370 00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:16,000 heard Michael Skickle's voice or never heard and tell a story, 371 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,599 I think it's very difficult, considering the privilege that these 372 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,680 people were brought up in to have anything any kind 373 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,400 of empathy. But I think Kristin, you've listened to the podcast. 374 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,160 I think that Michael has a really tragic story. It's 375 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,000 a bit poor, little rich kid, but really horrific in 376 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:37,319 so many ways he did. 377 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,279 Speaker 6: And when I went into the podcast, I went into 378 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,799 it with the I think the same level of understanding 379 00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:46,079 that a lot of people have just said. 380 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 4: It had happened. 381 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 6: He had been accused of murder, he had been convicted 382 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,920 of it, and he had served time in jail, and 383 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,440 I didn't know much beyond that. I also knew that 384 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,519 Mark Furman had written a book about it, and I 385 00:20:58,559 --> 00:21:00,519 grew up in the age of the Sims trial. 386 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 4: I definitely knew who Mark Furman was. 387 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:07,039 Speaker 6: But I was incredibly surprised listening to your podcast to 388 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,599 learn to Terre is virtually no evidence against Michael Skakel 389 00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:15,160 for the murder her mostly, and I think a lot 390 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,599 of people beyond virtually. 391 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 7: I think it's like there's no it's certainly there's no 392 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,119 forensic evidence in the case, but there's I think no 393 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,960 evidence really, uh, And yeah. 394 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:29,759 Speaker 6: That was crazy. I was listening and I kept going, 395 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:32,400 there's where's the smoking gun. There's got to be a 396 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,079 smoking gun. What got this guy convicted in the first place? 397 00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:37,920 And the more that I listened, the more that I realized, 398 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,440 Oh my god, it said he had a crappy lawyer. 399 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,759 Speaker 7: He did have a crappy lawyer, and he had a 400 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,519 very and I think I think he also had a 401 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,839 very motivated public, which put a lot of pressure on 402 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:53,319 the state of Connecticut. And I think that one of 403 00:21:53,319 --> 00:21:56,119 the people I interview in this is Linda Kenny Bowden, 404 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,759 who was part of Michael's defense team at some point. 405 00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:01,519 She's very well known defense lawyer and she at one 406 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:03,559 point was working on Michael's team, and she's brilliant and 407 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:06,319 if only Michael had hired her, he would have been acquitted. 408 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,279 But what Linda told me was, and I think that 409 00:22:09,319 --> 00:22:11,680 this gets into some of the themes of the podcast, 410 00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:16,759 is that when the law is concerned defense attorneys who 411 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,319 work for high profile clients, they call it a high 412 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:25,079 profile exception, in that frequently the law will be ignored. 413 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,640 In the case of this, Michael should have been tried 414 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:31,319 as he was fifteen years old when the crime occurred, 415 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,720 but he wasn't tried as he was tried as an adult. 416 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,759 And the reason he was tried as an adult, the 417 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,119 reason why the judge, the juvenile judge passed it up 418 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,680 to the superior court. Was she said, even though if 419 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,359 he had been tried as a juvenile, I think the biggest, 420 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:48,599 most extreme sentence would have been two years in prison. 421 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,519 They said, given that he's forty three years old, we 422 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:54,079 wouldn't have any facilities in the state of Connecticut to 423 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:55,680 put a forty three year old adolescent. 424 00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: Oh so these are for practical considerations, not but the 425 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:01,160 law would work exactly. 426 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, but this is the high profile exception because nobody 427 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:09,799 wanted this guy to Nobody wanted another Kennedy to go free. 428 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,160 And for me, the greatest irony in this case, and 429 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,480 I'm sorry if I'm skipping around a bit, the gretest 430 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,640 the greatest irony in this case is that is my 431 00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:23,079 perception of the case, was that Michael was indeed another 432 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,599 beneficiary of all of whatever gifts the Kennedys have to 433 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:32,599 free for To get, for instance, Teddy Kennedy, do you 434 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:34,039 have to be able to forget about chap equintic to 435 00:23:34,039 --> 00:23:36,319 get Teddy Kennedy not charged for cheap equitting to get 436 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,440 William Kennedy Smith to walk on rape charges. The great 437 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,359 irony of this is that Michael Skagald, when he was 438 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,440 in tried in two thousand and two, was in heated 439 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,559 battle with the Kennedy family that Kennedy's hated him, Bobby's 440 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:57,720 brothers hated him. Bobby's brothers literally Bobby's older brother Joe, 441 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,319 who was the who was a congressman from Boston, he 442 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,640 had taken he had inherited the seat from Tip O'Neil, 443 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,519 who had taken Jack Kennedy's seat because Bobby Kennedy, Bobby 444 00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:11,960 Kennedy was probably smarter than his older brother, and he 445 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,640 had the name. But the fact that Bobby Kennedy in 446 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,200 the early eighties was arrested for heroin possession, I think 447 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,880 it was deemed by Ethel, who I think was the 448 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,000 one who probably made a lot of decisions about who 449 00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:25,759 was going to be the next Kennedy to go all 450 00:24:25,759 --> 00:24:28,680 the way, decided that it was not Bobby's turn, and 451 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,039 that Bobby, as somebody who had just been arrested for 452 00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:34,480 heroin possession, was unelectable. So I went to Joe, and 453 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:36,119 for a variety of reasons that I go into in 454 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,880 the podcast, Joe Kennedy believes that Michael Skakele was responsible 455 00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:45,599 for his political career ending. He was going to run 456 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,079 for governor of Massachusetts, and because of a scandal that 457 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,359 he was engulfed in that involved his brother, Michael Kennedy 458 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,160 sleeping with a babysitter who he may have been sleeping 459 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,359 with since she was I think fourteen or fifteen years old, 460 00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:02,839 his campaign was engulfed and it died, and Joe Kennedy, 461 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,599 and this was very shortly before all this stuff happened 462 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,279 with Michael's prosecution, Joe Kennedy was very much convinced that 463 00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,079 Michael Skakell had been the source of this story that 464 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,079 had brought down his own political career. And ultimately, after 465 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,200 this scandal broke, about six months after this scandal broke, 466 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,559 Michael Kennedy, who was the the Kennedy brother who had 467 00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,359 supposedly been having an affair with his fifteen year old babysitter, 468 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,839 skied into a tree and died on I think New 469 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,599 Year's Eve. And certain members, as Michael has told me, 470 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,440 and I absolutely think this is true, certain members of 471 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,599 the Kennedy family, including some of Bobby's brothers, including Joe Kennedy, 472 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,519 think that Michael Skeakeele was not only responsible for killing 473 00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:46,599 his political career, but Michael Kennedy would not have killed, 474 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,880 not have skied into that tree, had that scandal not broken, 475 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:54,799 that his head was elsewhere or something. And so there 476 00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:57,079 were certain members of the Kennedy family who not only 477 00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:00,319 thought that Michael Skeakell was responsible for the death of 478 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,319 Joe Kennedy's career, they also thought that he was responsible 479 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:05,759 for the death of their beloved brother. And this is 480 00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:08,319 where we were in two thousand and two when Michael Skeakell. 481 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,240 When I assumed that Michael Skekele was getting all the 482 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,079 benefits of being a Kennedy, the Kennedys, I think, I 483 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,880 don't Michael Skekele is convinced that Kennedy's had something to 484 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:23,599 do with prosecution. I I tend to think that maybe 485 00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:25,839 there's something to it. But what I do know is 486 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,079 that there are a lot of Kennedy who would have 487 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:28,359 been happy to see him behind bars. 488 00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:32,839 Speaker 2: And do you think it's credible to make the claim 489 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,480 that somehow the Kennedys were pulling the levers of power 490 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,440 behind the scenes in order to see Michael Skeakell. 491 00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 7: Charged for murder that had happened decades before. I think 492 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,279 the timing if you look at the timing. You know 493 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:50,680 what's greatly it was very ironic about this, and Bobby 494 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,599 wrote about and framed is that this is I think 495 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,319 the one conspiracy that Bobby Kennedy puts no stock in 496 00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:00,880 is the fact that his family had it in Michael Kennedy. 497 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,559 But I look at the timing of and certain political 498 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:09,599 machinations that happened. Basically, one of two things had to 499 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,319 have happened. That Mark Furhman came out with a book 500 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:20,319 in nineteen ninety eight or maybe late ninety seven that 501 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,160 for the first time blamed Michael Skekel publicly for the murder. 502 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 3: Now, the one. 503 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,079 Speaker 7: Theory is that this book was and I don't think 504 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,640 it ever made the New York Times bestseller list. 505 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 3: It was a big book. 506 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 7: But I think that on its face, you could say 507 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,640 Mark Furman came out with this book and put a 508 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,160 lot of pressure and did a lot of media and 509 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,119 put a lot of pressure on the authorities. And he said, 510 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,039 he went on TV and said, I've given you a 511 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,920 roadmap for the prosecution. All you have to do is 512 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,799 take this book and run with it. The primary investigator 513 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:49,599 in the case has said that there's no validity to 514 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:52,519 that that Mark Urman's book had nothing to do with 515 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:58,160 our decision to prosecute Michael Skekeel, but the timing is 516 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,599 so interesting. Michael Skekell has a very specific theory about 517 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:05,480 how it worked, and it's actually not that crazy when 518 00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:08,720 he goes into it and involves several figures, several prominent 519 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,920 Kennedy figures and several prominent Connecticut politicians. And I have 520 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,440 to say I didn't believe it for many years, but 521 00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:20,119 actually just putting the dates down and looking at the dates, 522 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,880 it was just so peculiar. When it came late in 523 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,759 my reporting. I'll just share this very briefly. Late in 524 00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:29,200 my reporting, I came across an unpublished story that was 525 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,559 actually entered into evidence. And I don't know if anybody 526 00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:35,279 ever really figured, really understood the significance of it. 527 00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 3: Michael Skekell. 528 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 7: The Grand Jury was convened to look into Michael Skekele 529 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,279 and Michael Skekell only in nineteen ninety eight. I found 530 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:50,480 an unpublished article that was written by Len Levitt, who 531 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:53,480 was the journalists who covered it most. He's now dead, 532 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,359 but he worked for Newsday and he did a lot. 533 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,039 He had a lot of scoops on the thing, but 534 00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:01,599 he had I found this unpublished article from It has 535 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,000 to be based on all of the identifying details in it. 536 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,480 It has to be in either November ninety six or 537 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:11,160 early nineteen ninety seven, in which Frank Garr, who was 538 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,240 the only primarily and only investigator in the Michael Skekele case, 539 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:21,240 is quoted as saying, and this is about a year 540 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,799 before the grand jury was convenient on Michael Skekell. I'm 541 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,599 ninety nine point five percent convinced Thomas Skekel did this. Now, 542 00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,920 Thomas Cake would be Michael Skeakele's brother, and he was 543 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,640 for the first decade of the investigation the prime suspect 544 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,759 in the case. Michael Skekele only became a suspect in 545 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:42,799 the case around ninety seven or ninety eight, and for 546 00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:45,319 a decade his brother had bene suspect for a decade. 547 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,680 Another person in benic suspect a guy named Kenneth Littleton, 548 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,880 who had been a tutor who was staying with the 549 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,720 Scalhles on October thirtieth, nineteen seventy five. It was his 550 00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,559 first night in the house and based on a lot 551 00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:04,880 of real creepy, horrible things he did subsequent to that date, 552 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,839 I think the police started looking at him as a 553 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,079 likely suspect because he had a long history of mental 554 00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:13,000 illness and and I think crimes that you would say 555 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,519 had a sexual nature very much. But so just the 556 00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:20,599 idea that Michael Skeekeell, that this was a twenty something 557 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,799 year investigation, Michael Skekell was not a suspect until the 558 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,759 very last minute, to me, is curious. 559 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,559 Speaker 4: It definitely is? 560 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 6: It definitely is that every episode that I listened to, 561 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,440 I was just waiting for the smoking gun, and I 562 00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,680 never got one because it's very clear that there isn't one. No, 563 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,480 there's so and every other suspect that your name sounded 564 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:49,839 more credible to me than Michael. Yeah, absolutely crazy ahead. 565 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 2: So this tutor, why wasn't the tutor ever charged? 566 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 7: The tutor was not charged because the Connecticut investigators the 567 00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:01,559 most compelling evidence they had against the tutor was the 568 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:06,440 fact that he kept blowing polygraph after polygraph. And I 569 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,160 consulted for the podcast A guy was considered, I think, 570 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,079 probably the foremost polygraph expert in the country, and after 571 00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:16,680 talking to him, I don't put much faith in a 572 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,039 lot of polygraphs except as a tool to use in 573 00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:22,680 a room to basically wrench a confession from somebody for 574 00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:25,920 the cops to leave the room, come back in and 575 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,440 say to a guy, pull the paper out and say, buddy, 576 00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:31,319 you totally failed this. And somebody who was legitimately guilty 577 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,920 might get freaked out and confess at that point. But 578 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,240 in terms of actually pronouncing somebody guilty or innocent, I 579 00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:42,079 don't think that scientifically they have much validity. So the 580 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:44,599 only thing they really had on Ken was a bunch 581 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:47,519 of disturbing behavior that had very little to do with 582 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,279 Martha Moxley's murder but had a lot to do with 583 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,839 crimes that they'd committed elsewhere. And all they had were 584 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,920 these polygraphs, and I think that they never had a 585 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:01,920 enough They kept working on him. 586 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 3: They had a. 587 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:06,279 Speaker 7: Variety of ruses that involved his ex wife trying to 588 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:08,079 get him on the phone. They taped him for hours 589 00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:10,480 and hours trying to get him to confess. They had 590 00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:13,079 no case unless they got a confession, and I think 591 00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:16,759 that the way that they convicted Michael Skeykeele, I think 592 00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:18,880 that by the time they convicted Michael Skekele in two 593 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,319 thousand and two, they knew that the case had been 594 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:24,640 so botched there were no forensics to speak up. The 595 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,720 only way that they could get any conviction on this 596 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,640 was going to be through some sort of confession, and 597 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:35,119 the only evidence they had against Michael were two witnesses 598 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,079 who Michael had met at I guess you could call 599 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:39,960 a reformatory. 600 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 3: Michael had. 601 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:44,599 Speaker 7: Like many of his relatives, Michael had major alcohol problems, 602 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:50,160 especially after his mother died in nineteen seventy three. And Michael, 603 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:52,359 I think he said he probably became an alcoholic when 604 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:55,440 he was thirteen or fourteen. He's certainly a troublemaker. And 605 00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:03,519 when he was I think seventeen sixteen, at seventeen, he 606 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:07,160 had a really bad drunk driving accident in upstate New York. 607 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,599 And the way that the Scapehald attorney got him got 608 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960 into escape prison and conviction was to send him off 609 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,079 to a school called the Alan School in Maine, which 610 00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:20,359 was you hear a lot about these schools now Paris. 611 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,599 Hilton did a lot about the school that she went to. 612 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,000 There are these schools that I think very wealthy parents 613 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,440 would send their kids off to. They would send them 614 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,920 a lot of money, and these places, I think I 615 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,400 remember they used to call it tough Love. 616 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 3: Do you remember? 617 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 7: That was the But this was this was a place 618 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,640 that was run by a guy named Joe Ritchie. I 619 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,319 grew up in Maine and the Alon Schools in Poland, Maine, 620 00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:43,359 which was in the sticks of Maine. But Joe Ritchie 621 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,960 was a kind of a famous character in Maine. 622 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:45,279 Speaker 3: He was. 623 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 7: A he looked like a mobster, although he always claimed 624 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,799 he wasn't a mobster. But he was this thirty five 625 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,599 year old former junkie who had gone to prison early 626 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:02,960 in his career, early in his life for robbery, but 627 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,079 somehow turned his life around, didn't really turn his life around, 628 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:07,960 but turned its life around and created it and came 629 00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,360 up with the school based on the Sinanon, based on 630 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,519 the principles of Sinanon. 631 00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:14,679 Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys know a thing about sinatmas. 632 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,599 Speaker 4: Oh yes, yeah, oh yes. 633 00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:20,559 Speaker 7: So this was this was a school that had that 634 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:25,280 involved a lot of violence, a lot of humiliation, and 635 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,840 it was a I can't describe the horrors of the 636 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:29,599 Alon School. 637 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 6: You described it in the podcast, and my job was 638 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:33,599 on the floor. 639 00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, I believeable. The famous essay is David Sedaris. I 640 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,719 was just going out reading an essay his sister. I 641 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,360 think it was his younger sister had gone to a 642 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,239 lawn because she'd run away from school, and Sidara said 643 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,719 that there wasn't a day that his sister didn't mention 644 00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:51,760 the trauma that she'd experienced at Alon, and she ultimately 645 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,079 committed suicide. And I think I think she might have 646 00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:58,360 been in her late fifties. But the trauma that people 647 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,840 experienced at Alan was so horrible, and Michael absolutely experienced this. 648 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,760 But the two witnesses that they found to say that 649 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,320 Michael had confessed at Alan were two people who had 650 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,960 never gotten sober, Unlike Michael, Michael got sober in nineteen 651 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,119 eighty three. What they found were I think the equivalent 652 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,559 of what do they call them, I'm. 653 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,519 Speaker 4: Sorry, sound like Joie house snitches to make. 654 00:35:18,679 --> 00:35:20,559 Speaker 3: Exactly That's what I was looking for. The term. 655 00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 7: They were essentially jailhouse snitches since they weren't in jail 656 00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:27,000 the prossect. The investigator instead dangled money in front of 657 00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:29,320 them and said that there's a currently one hundred thousand 658 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,960 dollars reward leading to the conviction of Michael Skakeel. And 659 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,000 these guys got up and testified that they had heard 660 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,519 a confession many other Alan students who testified in the 661 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:41,239 trial said on the stand what I heard many times 662 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,800 from many skkell from many Alan students, which was that 663 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:49,239 even though Michael was beaten, and even though Joe Ritchie 664 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:51,920 basically had taken it upon himself to try to wrench 665 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,159 some sort of confession from Michael by having people beat 666 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,039 him and say you confess to this murder, that all 667 00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:00,920 these other Alan students said, Michael never confessed. The only 668 00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:03,320 they would beat the living shit out of him, and 669 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,440 the closest he would get was to say, I don't know, 670 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,599 I don't know. And Michael told me that he found out. 671 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:11,760 He realized that the only way he could get the 672 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,440 beatings to stop was to give them some sort of answer, 673 00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:17,119 and I don't know, for some reason got the beatings 674 00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:20,880 to stop. I'm convinced that the prosecute, I'm convinced that 675 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,559 the investigator, Frank gr after listening to the interview with 676 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:31,199 the first with one of the two guys who testified 677 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:33,840 against Michael, and listening to the interview when initially the 678 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,760 man says, I got to tell you, Frank, I never 679 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,960 heard a confession, and the prodding the prosecutor, the prodding 680 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,559 that the prosecutor does to him. This man was going 681 00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:48,920 through some medical issues, and Frank Garr, this cop from Connecticut, 682 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,400 gets him on the phone and says, oh, I've heard 683 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,519 you got your wife told me you have some medical issues. 684 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:55,159 The guy said, yeah, I've got some shoulder issues. And 685 00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:57,480 he said, yeah, I can't do my job anymore. I'm mechanic. 686 00:36:57,519 --> 00:36:58,800 I'm not gonna be able to do it. And Frank 687 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,760 Carr says to him, you got to make some plans, 688 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,679 don't you. And the plans he made, yeah, and so corrupt. Yeah, 689 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,840 incredibly corrupt. So the only evidence they had I think 690 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,239 I found after going through this case, I find it 691 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,920 very difficult to believe that the Connecticut authorities honestly believed 692 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,800 that they had the right guy. That's the biggest unanswered question. 693 00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:23,199 None of the people, none of the people who prosecuted 694 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,360 the case, would talk to me. But if I really 695 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,039 the big question I have for them, assuming that they 696 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:34,559 went through the same material that I did, was did 697 00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:36,599 you really think that you had the right guy? And 698 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,800 why did you do this? Why did you not there's 699 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,280 something called prosecutorial discretion. Why did you take this case? 700 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:44,760 Because I think that they had to know after going 701 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,039 through the evidence that they were very much trying to 702 00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:50,559 convict an innocent man, and I find that really disturbing. 703 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 2: Join us again next time as we continue our conversation 704 00:37:56,119 --> 00:38:01,079 with journalist Andrew Goldman discussing his new podcast, Asked Dead 705 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,400 Certain the Martha Moxley Murders. That'll be next time here 706 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:06,599 on mind Over Murder. 707 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 708 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,320 Another Dog Productions. 709 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,199 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 710 00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 711 00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 712 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 713 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,079 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 714 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 715 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,760 Murders on Facebook. 716 00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:46,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 717 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:48,199 Bill Thomas five six. 718 00:38:48,679 --> 00:39:15,039 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.