WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:04.080 Okay, We're love. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to William 2 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.080 Ramsey Investigates on Tonight Show. A very special guest. I've 3 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.160 been reading through his book that he published this year 4 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.439 in twenty twenty one. The book that he wrote is 5 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:16.600 titled Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, spree Killers and mass Murders. 6 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:21.600 And his name is Christopher Barry D and he's written 7 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:23.320 thirty six books. So I'm not going to list all 8 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:24.640 those books here, but I'm going to go through some 9 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.960 of his background. He has a very interesting background, particularly 10 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:31.480 he's descended from doctor John D. Court, astrologer to Queen 11 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:34.399 Elizabeth I and is the founder and former director of 12 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:38.679 the Criminology Research Institute or CRI, and former publisher and 13 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:42.119 editor in chief of The Criminologist, a highly respected journal 14 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:45.560 on matters concerning all aspects of criminology, from law enforcement 15 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:49.840 to forensic psychology. Christopher is interviewed and interrogated over thirty 16 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:54.280 of the world's most notorious killers, serial mass and one off, 17 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:59.240 including Peter Suftcliff who was the Yorkshire ripper, Ted Bundy 18 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.880 Warnos from the movie Monster, Dennis Nielsen who was a 19 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.680 UK serial killer, and Joanna Dennehe. He was the co 20 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.879 producer and interviewer for the acclaimed twelve part TV documentary 21 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:14.040 series The Serial Killers, and has appeared on television as 22 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.000 a consultant on serial homicide and in the series Born 23 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:20.519 to Kill on the cases of Fred and Rose West. 24 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:23.239 I've done an interview about Fred and Rose West, the 25 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.560 Moore's Murderers, and doctor Harold Shipman of a notorious serial kid. 26 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.120 He has also assisted in criminal investigations as far field 27 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.040 as Russia and the United States. Notable book successes include Monster, 28 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:35.680 which is the basis of the movie at the same 29 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:39.000 title about Aileen Moarnos, Dad Helped Me Please, about the 30 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:42.680 tragic Derek Bentley, hanged for a murder he did not 31 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.159 commit and was subjectly the subject of a film Let 32 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:50.840 Him Have It, and Talking with serial Killers, Christopher's international bestseller, 33 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:54.519 now with its sequel Talking with serial Killers, World's Most 34 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:59.640 Evil required reading at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Academy 35 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.400 to Co Virginia. His Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, A 36 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:05.959 Journey into the Evil Mind was the UK's best selling 37 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.639 true crime title of twenty seventeen. Its successor volume, Talking 38 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:12.919 with Psychopaths and Savages Beyond Evil was published in autumn 39 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:15.919 of twenty nineteen, and twenty twenty a new edition of 40 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.240 his Talking to serial Killers dead Men Talking appeared. The 41 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.639 same year saw the publication of his latest book, Talking 42 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:23.560 with Serial Killers Stalkers. But again the title of the 43 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:25.240 book we're going to kind of cover. He's going to 44 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:27.639 talk about his background as well again is talking with 45 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.240 Psychopaths and Savages, free killers and mass murders. 46 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:33.840 Christopher Barry d Are you there? Well? I am here? 47 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:36.280 Awesome, Well, thanks for agreeing to the interview for people. 48 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.199 I mean, you have a very lengthy background, thirty six 49 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.120 books for people may not have heard your name. Can 50 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.120 you just talk about the arc of your kind of 51 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:48.400 criminal investigation and true crime investigation and what led you 52 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:51.759 to write this book Talking with Psychopaths and Savages. 53 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.280 In a nutshell, I was a former Royal Marine, Greenberry Commando, 54 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.800 Special Forces. I've done some counter terrorism work and Terry 55 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:06.000 Gay work. When I left the Marines, I sort of 56 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:08.240 drifted in out of different jobs like we all do 57 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.520 when we come out of the armed forces. And then 58 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:14.159 one day I was in a junk shock, a second 59 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:19.000 hand shop in Southampton, and I noticed a pile of 60 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.759 Old Times newspaper cuttings and I pulled them down just 61 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.400 for the sheer curiosity of it. And I saw the 62 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:31.000 case of Brown and Kennedy were hanged for the murder 63 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.439 a police constable in Essex in nineteen twenty seven mis 64 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:39.479 see guttery. I certainly noticed my grandfather's name there. He 65 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:44.479 was one of the solicitors who defended Kennedy. They were 66 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:48.039 both hanged, so my solicitored, my grandfather didn't do a 67 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.599 particularly good job. They hung him. And I thought i'd 68 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.919 write a book, and I did. I managed to get 69 00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:00.280 hold of the extended closure documents by Fluke from the 70 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.240 Lord Chancellor's department, and I wrote this book and I 71 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.199 sent it off to W. H. Allen Publishers, and I 72 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:13.039 didn't get a reply. And I was in another bookshop, 73 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:16.319 funny enough, in Southampton and the guy said. I was 74 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.399 talking to the guy and he said, I said to 75 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.120 him about this book, and he said, well, look, I 76 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.680 used to work for Whallon as a rep. He said, 77 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.720 let me send it in. So he sent the manuscript in. 78 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.360 And Robin O'Dell, who's probably one of the world's, if 79 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:36.439 not the UK's, finest crime historians and authors, as well. 80 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:38.720 He was a member of that. He was the sort 81 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.040 of boss of the Jack the Rippa Society at the time. 82 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:43.360 And he read it and he wrote a letter back 83 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:45.480 to me and he said it was the worst manuscript 84 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.120 he'd ever seen in his entire life. It was. It 85 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:52.879 was terrible, but he said the research was impeccable. Uh. 86 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.160 And he said, would you would you? Would you like 87 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:57.920 it if we wrote the book together? And I give 88 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:02.360 you lead title? And I was amazed. And that was 89 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:04.959 my first book, The Long Drop. And then that was 90 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.959 followed by another section five to one case that you mentioned, 91 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:10.720 which was letting that dad help me, please let him 92 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:12.680 have it. And that's the book that got Derek Bentley 93 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.160 a posthumous pardon, made the film more or less of 94 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.800 the same known, starring Christopher Ecleston. It got Derek Bentley 95 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:25.920 a posthumous pardon, and it became the reader's digest hardback 96 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.079 nonfiction lead title two years later. And I saw, I 97 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.560 saw I'd never write another book because of the pain 98 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:37.680 and suffering I went through. But now I'm I'm up there, 99 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:39.639 you know, writing all the time. 100 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.160 All right, So you're at thirty six books. Okay, for 101 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.319 people who don't know about the Derek Bentley kids. Do 102 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:45.800 you mind talking a little bit more about it. I'm 103 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:46.879 not familiar with that clik. 104 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.360 Yeah, there were two lads. There was Christopher Craig Hutine, 105 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:53.199 he was about fifteen and sixty fifteen, and there was 106 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.000 Derek Bentley who was a bit older, who was had 107 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.560 a mental age of about a ten year old. And 108 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.240 they went to a burglar warehouse in Croydon, the Barlow 109 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.839 and Parker warehouse, and they climbed up on the roof 110 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.199 and somebody spotted them. 111 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:08.879 It was at night. 112 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.759 The police were called and the police broke in and 113 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.120 climbed up the stairs and the first officer who opened 114 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.199 the door on the roof, Pc Miles, was shot straight 115 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:23.439 between the eyes, and that Christopher Craig fired the revolver 116 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.279 and the police grabbed Bentley because he was simple minded, 117 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.480 he didn't even know this guy had a gun, his 118 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:36.360 companies had a gun, and because he was terrified, Derek 119 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:38.959 Bentley shouted out let him have it, Chris, which it 120 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.240 meant let him have the gun. I think that's when 121 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.800 the gun went off then, and they In other words, 122 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.720 the police said that Bentley was inciting Craig to shoot 123 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.800 the policeman, which was wrong. Then the police fabricated a 124 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:59.879 lot of evidence and statements and they hung Bentley and 125 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.120 Christopher Craig is now a free man. 126 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:04.279 That's unfortunate. 127 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:09.639 So then you got the posthumous acquittal of him, and 128 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.399 so you started you have this long career. What led 129 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:15.360 you to kind of reach out and start talking with 130 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.800 these serial killers like Robin ghekt Ian Brady Eileen Warnos. 131 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:24.519 Well, that's another look interesting story because really, back in 132 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.600 the old days, there were these magazines called the True 133 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.920 Crime Magazines. I think you were about two pound fifty 134 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.120 or something, and I said, oh, there's one on Harvey 135 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:38.279 the Hammer, HARMI Caringdon, one on Amateur vill Horror and 136 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:39.920 all this sort of stuff, and I sort of started 137 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.399 collecting them. I didn't realize at the time there'd be 138 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.240 about two hundred and fifty episode, two hundred and fifty 139 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:52.959 books in the collection, and of course they're collector's pieces now, 140 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.519 and I started to collect them. So and back then, 141 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.480 of course, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have 142 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.959 emails and things like that, and what I did was 143 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.720 I wrote to people like Arthur Shawcross, and I wrote 144 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.879 to Harvey the Hammer Carrignan, and I wrote to lots 145 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:11.720 of others and I started getting replies and I thought, oh, 146 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.000 this is interesting. I might never thought of writing a 147 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:15.839 book about it. 148 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:16.639 And then. 149 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:23.120 The Craig previously mentioned the Derek Bentley case and that 150 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.920 was in Croydon and a local TV producer down there 151 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.800 called Fraser Ashford ran a company called Crystal Vision, and 152 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:32.480 he interviewed me on TV on the news about the 153 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.799 Derek Bentley case because it was local, and I happened 154 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:37.360 to mention to him, I've got all these letters and 155 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.399 serial killers and he said to me, look, why don't 156 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:45.799 we go out there and make a series, And yeah, fine, 157 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.360 And I didn't hear from him for two years, and 158 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.639 then all of a sudden, my father contact him. He said, 159 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.320 Fraser Ashford's trying to get hold of you. And I said, 160 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:55.720 what does he want then, and he said, well, he 161 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.000 wants to talk to you. And Fraser said, we've got 162 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.720 the budget, let's go and do it. So we were 163 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:06.000 the first TV anywhere in the world to actually go 164 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:10.639 into prisons and interview these killers live and let them 165 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.120 say what they wanted to say on camera. It had 166 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.960 never been done before. It's done all the time now, 167 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:20.519 but back then we broke the mold. And then as 168 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:23.759 a result of that, I wrote a book called Talking 169 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.440 with Serial Killers. That was in two thousand and three. 170 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.360 It was published, and I approached Virgin, who were my 171 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.320 publishers at the time, and they turned it down and 172 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.879 they said it would probably scare our gray rints readers, 173 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.960 our old ladies. And I said, okay, we're fine. They'd 174 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.919 published some other books of mine, and then half an 175 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.919 hour later I spoke Sir John Blake and John said 176 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:52.919 I'll have it so and nobody had ever written a 177 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.200 book with the killer's own words in it. And then 178 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.840 Virgin called me back and said, actually, we've had second thoughts, Christoph. 179 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.840 We wanted to buy that book. I mean, it's unique. 180 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:02.600 And I turned around and said, sorry, it's sold to 181 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:06.200 John Blake. John Blake published that. I've been with him 182 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:08.120 now he's one of my publishers, but I've been with 183 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:13.159 him for twenty years. And basically that's how the brand, 184 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.440 which is now a brand with wh Smith, traveled as well. 185 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.080 We developed this sequel. We've got all these Talking with series, 186 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.080 but you've got Talking with Female serial Killers blah blah blah. 187 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:29.000 Up until talking with savages that you're talking about tonight. 188 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:31.639 Right, And I mean so, I mean there are whole 189 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.840 shows right now, like Mindhunter is based upon probably what 190 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.960 you started twenty years ago. That's all over Netflix. But 191 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:42.799 from your experiences with such such a variety of different 192 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.080 homicidal people, what's your kind of takeaway? What have you 193 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.360 learned from putting all of those conversations together. 194 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.159 Well, yeah, you are on a very good point here, 195 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.159 because and very timely point. You're still learning. You never 196 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:02.639 stop learning. I mean you developed these ideas. I'm actually 197 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:04.879 working on a book at the moment for Blake Bonnier, 198 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:11.000 which is called Letters from Serial Killers. Now, over those years, 199 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.879 I managed to collect hundreds of letters from these killers, 200 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:21.000 different ones, some are short, some of now executed, and 201 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:23.320 I had them all boxed up, and then I was 202 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:26.039 sort of I normally come up with my ideas when 203 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.600 I've had a few beers, and I suddenly thought, well, 204 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:30.799 wonder if I could put these letters into a book. 205 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.879 And again, my publishers left at it because obviously they 206 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:40.200 want more books. And then what you're hinting on here 207 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:43.639 is about learning what you learned from these people? Well, 208 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.840 these letters from serial Killers let's say, for instance, the 209 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:52.919 Happy Face Killer just Keith Yeah, up in Oregon. And 210 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:57.120 and it's what it's not what you read or what 211 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.679 they say on the page. Quite often it's what's hidden 212 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:03.840 between the lines, or what they don't say, or what 213 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:08.159 they forget to say. And once you start looking at 214 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:12.600 these letters in a complete you see you see the 215 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:17.120 PSCH psychopathology of the inmate or the person in a 216 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:22.000 completely different way. So I'm I'm reading these letters. For instance, 217 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:25.759 let's go to say J. R. Robinson, John Robinson, the 218 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:31.559 Bodies in the Barrels guy on death row in Kansas. Now, 219 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.200 I wrote a chapter about him, and he was telling 220 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.799 me consistently, this con man, this evil man, was telling 221 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.320 me that he was innocent. Although he played guilty, he 222 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.519 was innocent, and he wanted to do a deal, and 223 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:47.840 he wanted he said, he knows the queen, and he's 224 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:51.720 you know, and he's he's got you know. And he 225 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:55.840 started itemizing all the things he needed to cooperate. He 226 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.000 needed another team of lawyers. And he was quite a 227 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.759 business like, but obviously charlattan And he was denying that 228 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:07.240 he'd ever been into sado mascouism, and he was into 229 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.960 whipping girls and stuff like that, but a honeytrap for him. 230 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.360 A friend of mine, a colleague for she's now former 231 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.519 FBI agent special agent. She was writing to him about 232 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.000 bondage and stuff like that. So in this book I'm 233 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.320 doing now, I'm showing the reader one side of this 234 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.639 man who's blatantly lying, and I've got the letters that 235 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:35.879 he was sending to this FBI agent. 236 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:41.320 So yeah, I mean, but and you mentioned that in 237 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:46.679 this book how often guys are communicating with fans or 238 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.279 possible paramours and things like that. So some of these 239 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:53.960 serial killers kind of like, do you get the impression 240 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.000 that they like the attention? 241 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.559 Yeah, I mean they are attention seekers. I mean that's 242 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.720 one of the easiest ways for any of your viewers 243 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:06.639 who want to write to these killers. And you know, 244 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:08.799 there are a lot of people that want to and 245 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.000 you know, great if they want to, long you don't 246 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.360 fall in love with them. But the one thing to 247 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:17.440 do when you're trying to get one of these killers 248 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:21.480 is to think like a fisherman. I think I need 249 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:25.799 to catch this bass or something or this salmon. What 250 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.200 bait can I use that I'm going to do to 251 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.519 hook it? Hook him? So you need to go beforehand. 252 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.159 This is where I was lucky with these magazines I had. 253 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:38.879 I did a lot of research on their histories, their narratives, 254 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.320 and I've worked out what they liked and what they 255 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:48.360 didn't like. And so when you present your bait, John 256 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.399 Robinson was very cautious. He swam around it a few times. 257 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.120 He sniffed a cunning But with Melanie Maguire, the ice 258 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.679 queen out of New Jersey at the Garden State, that's 259 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.519 another interesting one. I'll quickly pop in. She killed her husband, 260 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:06.840 chopped him up and put his body in suitcases and 261 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.240 for him in the Chesapeake Bay. She's quite glamorous in 262 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.679 her day. She was a nurse and he was quite 263 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.279 a wealthy guy. And she went to trial and she 264 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:19.840 was found guilty. And she's a femme fatal back then, 265 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.639 I mean, she was pretty pretty petite. Everybody thought she 266 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.200 was augeous, etc. And I knew that the world's media 267 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.759 were all over her. And she's in this prison in 268 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.320 New Jersey, and I sat down, I thought about it. 269 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.039 But she was quite upscaled, as they call it in America, 270 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.919 quite classy, you know. I realized that she liked French 271 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:43.240 food and all this sort of stuff. So I typed 272 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.120 a letter on cream conqueror a paper, and I wrote 273 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:51.120 her name dear Melanie at the top and side at Christopher, 274 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.720 and I put my my family d wax cresp batstamp 275 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.600 on the bottom, and I wrote an envelope in the 276 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:03.879 same conquer expensive conqueror, and I sprayed it with egoist Chanel. 277 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.080 And that and that that's what was the hook for her. 278 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:13.360 Oh, she gets this letter. She's getting dozens of letters 279 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.960 in this stinking cell. She's lost all all the glamour 280 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.559 of life and all the noise in the racket she's 281 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.960 living in. And she finds one letter from England with 282 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.440 an air mail stamp on it, and then she touches it, 283 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.240 opens it and she gets a whiff of ego as Chanel. 284 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.559 Now that's a sensory trick, you know. 285 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:32.080 You don't. 286 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.679 I can't do that to guys because they think. 287 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:35.279 I was a bit weird. 288 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:39.679 But with her, she bit and she wrote straight back 289 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.919 and she said, Christopher, you must be psychic. That's my favorite. 290 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:47.080 That's ego is Chanel. I didn't. And then we had 291 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:53.360 long correspondence, beautiful handwriting everything else, and and then of 292 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.759 course ultimately you fall out with these people, you suck 293 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.480 them dry, and then you get rid of them. 294 00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.039 Uh. 295 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.759 And that's so it's it's this approach that people have 296 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.440 to look at and you have to be careful. And 297 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.400 you mentioned mind Hunter. The guys going in they do 298 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.920 their homework beforehand. You know, they don't just walk in 299 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.799 and say I want to interview you. They go right back. 300 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:20.559 Right, so then they know who they're talking to. I mean, 301 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:24.400 do you find that all of those people you've communicated 302 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:26.160 are say that they're innocent? 303 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.359 Isn't it strange most of them are. I've I've never 304 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:36.759 met a guilty man in prison, and I'm the only, 305 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.319 must be the only writer in the world that's trying 306 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.359 to get into prison to interview people that are trying 307 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.079 to get out, right, I. 308 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.119 Mean, they all say they're innocent. In almost every like 309 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:50.079 Supermax or whatever. They all nobody says, yeah, you're justly 310 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:51.599 as my understanding. 311 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:52.599 Yeah, you're right. 312 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.759 I mean Dougie Clark, the Sunset Slayer, I mean, you know, 313 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.559 if you ever want, if you ever got the sort 314 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.359 of idealistic, sort of persona of a serial go and 315 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.680 meet Doggie Clark at San Quentin. I mean, he's absolutely crazy. 316 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.079 His teeth are falling out, he's looking rough. I went 317 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.240 down with a film crew. We filmed him one of 318 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.920 those TV programs. He was effing and it took me 319 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.279 about ten minutes to shut him up. He was swearing 320 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.279 the filth coming out of his mouth. Yeah, he's got 321 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.400 a great hit, you know. I actually believe that he 322 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.119 could be innocent. Funny enough, I've got enough documents to 323 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.599 say that. I think this guy's it was a mud 324 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.559 getting involved with this woman. But it wasn't just it 325 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.559 wasn't Clark. It was a guy called Jack Murray that 326 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.880 was with this girl woman that was doing the killings. 327 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.079 But he's got a great sense of humor. So in 328 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.480 that respect, I quite like Doggie because he says it 329 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:45.759 as it is. He doesn't he doesn't try and smooth 330 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:47.960 and bullshit you like Kenneth Byank and all these other 331 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.880 He didn't try and sort of on you. He says 332 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:51.599 that as it is. 333 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.119 Kenneth Bianke was kind of notorious with that, right The 334 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.400 Hillside Stranger was notorious for trying to manipulate people Faye 335 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.000 and say or schizophrenia like. He was kind of a 336 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.039 more cunning, clever, serial killer. Would you agree with that? 337 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.319 Well, there's clever and there is clever, isn't that? I 338 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.440 meant it was Oscar wild or somebody said, you know, 339 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.599 you know he's in this prison, he said, but he 340 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.680 felt his intelligence was slightly above all of the rest 341 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.680 of the other inmates. But on the other hand, he 342 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.880 was stupid because he got caught. Right, the Yankee people 343 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.799 call his people intelligent. Robinson even he was a commn 344 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:38.519 He he convinced that the then physician for the President 345 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.599 of the United States to give him a job. I mean, 346 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:42.920 he hadn't got a clue about medicine. But you know, 347 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.599 the con men, they're sort of homicidal doll boys. But 348 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:54.200 we might perceive them to be intelligent. But look, but 349 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.680 they eventually undo themselves. They can't be that bright. And 350 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.960 if they they were intelligent, why would they want to 351 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.079 spend their whole god given life locked up behind bars 352 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:09.799 in the stink in prison. That's not intelligence, is it. 353 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:13.839 No, they would they would be much more careful to 354 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.279 not be caught, right. I would think they probably had 355 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.480 the false impression that they would never be caught, and 356 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:21.160 then they got caught. 357 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:26.880 That's because they got this extreme narcissistic personality, and that 358 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.440 runs right through all of the serial killers, with a 359 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.279 few exceptions. I don't think Alien Wernos had it. But 360 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:35.400 you look at Bundy for instance. Look out what a 361 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.920 narcissist he was. Most of them are narcissists that control freaks, 362 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.519 and this is what this is what causes their undoing. 363 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.480 They think like bt K and people like that. They 364 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:50.519 think they're better, they can out with the law, but 365 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:51.039 they can't. 366 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:54.319 Right, No, it's really true. You really think they can 367 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.400 get away with it. Yeah, No, it's incredible. I mean 368 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:01.039 you're what your book on Aileen Warno's who you just 369 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.640 mentioned was made into that movie Monster. I believe the 370 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:07.480 lad actress got an oscar for that. What are your 371 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.480 impressions of her? And she was kind of unique in 372 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.599 that she was a female serial killer. What was your 373 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:14.359 impressions of her? 374 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:15.359 Well? 375 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:21.000 When I wrote the book, the first book Talking to 376 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.559 serial Killers, my publisher said, can't we find a woman 377 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:26.880 to put in there? And I'd only very briefly met Lee. 378 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:28.759 I mean it was only just a five minute thing. 379 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.680 It wasn't a long thing. And I said yeah, And 380 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:36.519 I started to research a history and as I started 381 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:38.920 to read the history. I started drinking whiskey, believe it 382 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.160 or not, and I started One night I broke down 383 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.880 in tears reading about history. And this poor girl went 384 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.480 through hell. You know, a grand a step father. Her 385 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.680 father was hung himself. He was a sex in prison, 386 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:56.240 he was a sex offender. Her stepfather was a miserable 387 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:58.880 bustard who whipped her with the belt, stripped and whitcher. 388 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:01.400 I mean, this girl went through hell and she went 389 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.440 on what Americans called the lamb. She was a bright 390 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.079 little cookie and she ended up in Florida where she 391 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:12.000 met Tia Moore and they fell in love. And Lee 392 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:17.400 was an interstate hooker. The remarkable thing was at her trial, 393 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.599 a lot of her customers, clients, wanted to come forward 394 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.400 and give evidence to say, look, she was good, she 395 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:29.519 was a good girl. You paid the money and she 396 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.880 did the tricks, and then everybody was happy. But she 397 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.279 killed seven men. And those seven men were like, one 398 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.759 was a pastor and only one was an ex clot, 399 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.440 sort of like moral bigots. One was getting engaged, one 400 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.680 was a woman beat her anyway, and they started beating 401 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.640