Speaker 1: Okay, We're love. This is William Ramsey. Welcome to William
Speaker 1: Ramsey Investigates on Tonight Show. A very special guest. I've
Speaker 1: been reading through his book that he published this year
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one. The book that he wrote is
Speaker 1: titled Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, spree Killers and mass Murders.
Speaker 1: And his name is Christopher Barry D and he's written
Speaker 1: thirty six books. So I'm not going to list all
Speaker 1: those books here, but I'm going to go through some
Speaker 1: of his background. He has a very interesting background, particularly
Speaker 1: he's descended from doctor John D. Court, astrologer to Queen
Speaker 1: Elizabeth I and is the founder and former director of
Speaker 1: the Criminology Research Institute or CRI, and former publisher and
Speaker 1: editor in chief of The Criminologist, a highly respected journal
Speaker 1: on matters concerning all aspects of criminology, from law enforcement
Speaker 1: to forensic psychology. Christopher is interviewed and interrogated over thirty
Speaker 1: of the world's most notorious killers, serial mass and one off,
Speaker 1: including Peter Suftcliff who was the Yorkshire ripper, Ted Bundy
Speaker 1: Warnos from the movie Monster, Dennis Nielsen who was a
Speaker 1: UK serial killer, and Joanna Dennehe. He was the co
Speaker 1: producer and interviewer for the acclaimed twelve part TV documentary
Speaker 1: series The Serial Killers, and has appeared on television as
Speaker 1: a consultant on serial homicide and in the series Born
Speaker 1: to Kill on the cases of Fred and Rose West.
Speaker 1: I've done an interview about Fred and Rose West, the
Speaker 1: Moore's Murderers, and doctor Harold Shipman of a notorious serial kid.
Speaker 1: He has also assisted in criminal investigations as far field
Speaker 1: as Russia and the United States. Notable book successes include Monster,
Speaker 1: which is the basis of the movie at the same
Speaker 1: title about Aileen Moarnos, Dad Helped Me Please, about the
Speaker 1: tragic Derek Bentley, hanged for a murder he did not
Speaker 1: commit and was subjectly the subject of a film Let
Speaker 1: Him Have It, and Talking with serial Killers, Christopher's international bestseller,
Speaker 1: now with its sequel Talking with serial Killers, World's Most
Speaker 1: Evil required reading at the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Academy
Speaker 1: to Co Virginia. His Talking with Psychopaths and Savages, A
Speaker 1: Journey into the Evil Mind was the UK's best selling
Speaker 1: true crime title of twenty seventeen. Its successor volume, Talking
Speaker 1: with Psychopaths and Savages Beyond Evil was published in autumn
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, and twenty twenty a new edition of
Speaker 1: his Talking to serial Killers dead Men Talking appeared. The
Speaker 1: same year saw the publication of his latest book, Talking
Speaker 1: with Serial Killers Stalkers. But again the title of the
Speaker 1: book we're going to kind of cover. He's going to
Speaker 1: talk about his background as well again is talking with
Speaker 1: Psychopaths and Savages, free killers and mass murders.
Speaker 2: Christopher Barry d Are you there? Well? I am here?
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, thanks for agreeing to the interview for people.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have a very lengthy background, thirty six
Speaker 1: books for people may not have heard your name. Can
Speaker 1: you just talk about the arc of your kind of
Speaker 1: criminal investigation and true crime investigation and what led you
Speaker 1: to write this book Talking with Psychopaths and Savages.
Speaker 3: In a nutshell, I was a former Royal Marine, Greenberry Commando,
Speaker 3: Special Forces. I've done some counter terrorism work and Terry
Speaker 3: Gay work. When I left the Marines, I sort of
Speaker 3: drifted in out of different jobs like we all do
Speaker 3: when we come out of the armed forces. And then
Speaker 3: one day I was in a junk shock, a second
Speaker 3: hand shop in Southampton, and I noticed a pile of
Speaker 3: Old Times newspaper cuttings and I pulled them down just
Speaker 3: for the sheer curiosity of it. And I saw the
Speaker 3: case of Brown and Kennedy were hanged for the murder
Speaker 3: a police constable in Essex in nineteen twenty seven mis
Speaker 3: see guttery. I certainly noticed my grandfather's name there. He
Speaker 3: was one of the solicitors who defended Kennedy. They were
Speaker 3: both hanged, so my solicitored, my grandfather didn't do a
Speaker 3: particularly good job. They hung him. And I thought i'd
Speaker 3: write a book, and I did. I managed to get
Speaker 3: hold of the extended closure documents by Fluke from the
Speaker 3: Lord Chancellor's department, and I wrote this book and I
Speaker 3: sent it off to W. H. Allen Publishers, and I
Speaker 3: didn't get a reply. And I was in another bookshop,
Speaker 3: funny enough, in Southampton and the guy said. I was
Speaker 3: talking to the guy and he said, I said to
Speaker 3: him about this book, and he said, well, look, I
Speaker 3: used to work for Whallon as a rep. He said,
Speaker 3: let me send it in. So he sent the manuscript in.
Speaker 3: And Robin O'Dell, who's probably one of the world's, if
Speaker 3: not the UK's, finest crime historians and authors, as well.
Speaker 3: He was a member of that. He was the sort
Speaker 3: of boss of the Jack the Rippa Society at the time.
Speaker 3: And he read it and he wrote a letter back
Speaker 3: to me and he said it was the worst manuscript
Speaker 3: he'd ever seen in his entire life. It was. It
Speaker 3: was terrible, but he said the research was impeccable. Uh.
Speaker 3: And he said, would you would you? Would you like
Speaker 3: it if we wrote the book together? And I give
Speaker 3: you lead title? And I was amazed. And that was
Speaker 3: my first book, The Long Drop. And then that was
Speaker 3: followed by another section five to one case that you mentioned,
Speaker 3: which was letting that dad help me, please let him
Speaker 3: have it. And that's the book that got Derek Bentley
Speaker 3: a posthumous pardon, made the film more or less of
Speaker 3: the same known, starring Christopher Ecleston. It got Derek Bentley
Speaker 3: a posthumous pardon, and it became the reader's digest hardback
Speaker 3: nonfiction lead title two years later. And I saw, I
Speaker 3: saw I'd never write another book because of the pain
Speaker 3: and suffering I went through. But now I'm I'm up there,
Speaker 3: you know, writing all the time.
Speaker 1: All right, So you're at thirty six books. Okay, for
Speaker 1: people who don't know about the Derek Bentley kids. Do
Speaker 1: you mind talking a little bit more about it. I'm
Speaker 1: not familiar with that clik.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were two lads. There was Christopher Craig Hutine,
Speaker 3: he was about fifteen and sixty fifteen, and there was
Speaker 3: Derek Bentley who was a bit older, who was had
Speaker 3: a mental age of about a ten year old. And
Speaker 3: they went to a burglar warehouse in Croydon, the Barlow
Speaker 3: and Parker warehouse, and they climbed up on the roof
Speaker 3: and somebody spotted them.
Speaker 2: It was at night.
Speaker 3: The police were called and the police broke in and
Speaker 3: climbed up the stairs and the first officer who opened
Speaker 3: the door on the roof, Pc Miles, was shot straight
Speaker 3: between the eyes, and that Christopher Craig fired the revolver
Speaker 3: and the police grabbed Bentley because he was simple minded,
Speaker 3: he didn't even know this guy had a gun, his
Speaker 3: companies had a gun, and because he was terrified, Derek
Speaker 3: Bentley shouted out let him have it, Chris, which it
Speaker 3: meant let him have the gun. I think that's when
Speaker 3: the gun went off then, and they In other words,
Speaker 3: the police said that Bentley was inciting Craig to shoot
Speaker 3: the policeman, which was wrong. Then the police fabricated a
Speaker 3: lot of evidence and statements and they hung Bentley and
Speaker 3: Christopher Craig is now a free man.
Speaker 2: That's unfortunate.
Speaker 1: So then you got the posthumous acquittal of him, and
Speaker 1: so you started you have this long career. What led
Speaker 1: you to kind of reach out and start talking with
Speaker 1: these serial killers like Robin ghekt Ian Brady Eileen Warnos.
Speaker 3: Well, that's another look interesting story because really, back in
Speaker 3: the old days, there were these magazines called the True
Speaker 3: Crime Magazines. I think you were about two pound fifty
Speaker 3: or something, and I said, oh, there's one on Harvey
Speaker 3: the Hammer, HARMI Caringdon, one on Amateur vill Horror and
Speaker 3: all this sort of stuff, and I sort of started
Speaker 3: collecting them. I didn't realize at the time there'd be
Speaker 3: about two hundred and fifty episode, two hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: books in the collection, and of course they're collector's pieces now,
Speaker 3: and I started to collect them. So and back then,
Speaker 3: of course, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have
Speaker 3: emails and things like that, and what I did was
Speaker 3: I wrote to people like Arthur Shawcross, and I wrote
Speaker 3: to Harvey the Hammer Carrignan, and I wrote to lots
Speaker 3: of others and I started getting replies and I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: this is interesting. I might never thought of writing a
Speaker 3: book about it.
Speaker 2: And then.
Speaker 3: The Craig previously mentioned the Derek Bentley case and that
Speaker 3: was in Croydon and a local TV producer down there
Speaker 3: called Fraser Ashford ran a company called Crystal Vision, and
Speaker 3: he interviewed me on TV on the news about the
Speaker 3: Derek Bentley case because it was local, and I happened
Speaker 3: to mention to him, I've got all these letters and
Speaker 3: serial killers and he said to me, look, why don't
Speaker 3: we go out there and make a series, And yeah, fine,
Speaker 3: And I didn't hear from him for two years, and
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, my father contact him. He said,
Speaker 3: Fraser Ashford's trying to get hold of you. And I said,
Speaker 3: what does he want then, and he said, well, he
Speaker 3: wants to talk to you. And Fraser said, we've got
Speaker 3: the budget, let's go and do it. So we were
Speaker 3: the first TV anywhere in the world to actually go
Speaker 3: into prisons and interview these killers live and let them
Speaker 3: say what they wanted to say on camera. It had
Speaker 3: never been done before. It's done all the time now,
Speaker 3: but back then we broke the mold. And then as
Speaker 3: a result of that, I wrote a book called Talking
Speaker 3: with Serial Killers. That was in two thousand and three.
Speaker 3: It was published, and I approached Virgin, who were my
Speaker 3: publishers at the time, and they turned it down and
Speaker 3: they said it would probably scare our gray rints readers,
Speaker 3: our old ladies. And I said, okay, we're fine. They'd
Speaker 3: published some other books of mine, and then half an
Speaker 3: hour later I spoke Sir John Blake and John said
Speaker 3: I'll have it so and nobody had ever written a
Speaker 3: book with the killer's own words in it. And then
Speaker 3: Virgin called me back and said, actually, we've had second thoughts, Christoph.
Speaker 3: We wanted to buy that book. I mean, it's unique.
Speaker 3: And I turned around and said, sorry, it's sold to
Speaker 3: John Blake. John Blake published that. I've been with him
Speaker 3: now he's one of my publishers, but I've been with
Speaker 3: him for twenty years. And basically that's how the brand,
Speaker 3: which is now a brand with wh Smith, traveled as well.
Speaker 3: We developed this sequel. We've got all these Talking with series,
Speaker 3: but you've got Talking with Female serial Killers blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Up until talking with savages that you're talking about tonight.
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean so, I mean there are whole
Speaker 1: shows right now, like Mindhunter is based upon probably what
Speaker 1: you started twenty years ago. That's all over Netflix. But
Speaker 1: from your experiences with such such a variety of different
Speaker 1: homicidal people, what's your kind of takeaway? What have you
Speaker 1: learned from putting all of those conversations together.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you are on a very good point here,
Speaker 3: because and very timely point. You're still learning. You never
Speaker 3: stop learning. I mean you developed these ideas. I'm actually
Speaker 3: working on a book at the moment for Blake Bonnier,
Speaker 3: which is called Letters from Serial Killers. Now, over those years,
Speaker 3: I managed to collect hundreds of letters from these killers,
Speaker 3: different ones, some are short, some of now executed, and
Speaker 3: I had them all boxed up, and then I was
Speaker 3: sort of I normally come up with my ideas when
Speaker 3: I've had a few beers, and I suddenly thought, well,
Speaker 3: wonder if I could put these letters into a book.
Speaker 3: And again, my publishers left at it because obviously they
Speaker 3: want more books. And then what you're hinting on here
Speaker 3: is about learning what you learned from these people? Well,
Speaker 3: these letters from serial Killers let's say, for instance, the
Speaker 3: Happy Face Killer just Keith Yeah, up in Oregon. And
Speaker 3: and it's what it's not what you read or what
Speaker 3: they say on the page. Quite often it's what's hidden
Speaker 3: between the lines, or what they don't say, or what
Speaker 3: they forget to say. And once you start looking at
Speaker 3: these letters in a complete you see you see the
Speaker 3: PSCH psychopathology of the inmate or the person in a
Speaker 3: completely different way. So I'm I'm reading these letters. For instance,
Speaker 3: let's go to say J. R. Robinson, John Robinson, the
Speaker 3: Bodies in the Barrels guy on death row in Kansas. Now,
Speaker 3: I wrote a chapter about him, and he was telling
Speaker 3: me consistently, this con man, this evil man, was telling
Speaker 3: me that he was innocent. Although he played guilty, he
Speaker 3: was innocent, and he wanted to do a deal, and
Speaker 3: he wanted he said, he knows the queen, and he's
Speaker 3: you know, and he's he's got you know. And he
Speaker 3: started itemizing all the things he needed to cooperate. He
Speaker 3: needed another team of lawyers. And he was quite a
Speaker 3: business like, but obviously charlattan And he was denying that
Speaker 3: he'd ever been into sado mascouism, and he was into
Speaker 3: whipping girls and stuff like that, but a honeytrap for him.
Speaker 3: A friend of mine, a colleague for she's now former
Speaker 3: FBI agent special agent. She was writing to him about
Speaker 3: bondage and stuff like that. So in this book I'm
Speaker 3: doing now, I'm showing the reader one side of this
Speaker 3: man who's blatantly lying, and I've got the letters that
Speaker 3: he was sending to this FBI agent.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, but and you mentioned that in
Speaker 1: this book how often guys are communicating with fans or
Speaker 1: possible paramours and things like that. So some of these
Speaker 1: serial killers kind of like, do you get the impression
Speaker 1: that they like the attention?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they are attention seekers. I mean that's
Speaker 3: one of the easiest ways for any of your viewers
Speaker 3: who want to write to these killers. And you know,
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people that want to and
Speaker 3: you know, great if they want to, long you don't
Speaker 3: fall in love with them. But the one thing to
Speaker 3: do when you're trying to get one of these killers
Speaker 3: is to think like a fisherman. I think I need
Speaker 3: to catch this bass or something or this salmon. What
Speaker 3: bait can I use that I'm going to do to
Speaker 3: hook it? Hook him? So you need to go beforehand.
Speaker 3: This is where I was lucky with these magazines I had.
Speaker 3: I did a lot of research on their histories, their narratives,
Speaker 3: and I've worked out what they liked and what they
Speaker 3: didn't like. And so when you present your bait, John
Speaker 3: Robinson was very cautious. He swam around it a few times.
Speaker 3: He sniffed a cunning But with Melanie Maguire, the ice
Speaker 3: queen out of New Jersey at the Garden State, that's
Speaker 3: another interesting one. I'll quickly pop in. She killed her husband,
Speaker 3: chopped him up and put his body in suitcases and
Speaker 3: for him in the Chesapeake Bay. She's quite glamorous in
Speaker 3: her day. She was a nurse and he was quite
Speaker 3: a wealthy guy. And she went to trial and she
Speaker 3: was found guilty. And she's a femme fatal back then,
Speaker 3: I mean, she was pretty pretty petite. Everybody thought she
Speaker 3: was augeous, etc. And I knew that the world's media
Speaker 3: were all over her. And she's in this prison in
Speaker 3: New Jersey, and I sat down, I thought about it.
Speaker 3: But she was quite upscaled, as they call it in America,
Speaker 3: quite classy, you know. I realized that she liked French
Speaker 3: food and all this sort of stuff. So I typed
Speaker 3: a letter on cream conqueror a paper, and I wrote
Speaker 3: her name dear Melanie at the top and side at Christopher,
Speaker 3: and I put my my family d wax cresp batstamp
Speaker 3: on the bottom, and I wrote an envelope in the
Speaker 3: same conquer expensive conqueror, and I sprayed it with egoist Chanel.
Speaker 2: And that and that that's what was the hook for her.
Speaker 3: Oh, she gets this letter. She's getting dozens of letters
Speaker 3: in this stinking cell. She's lost all all the glamour
Speaker 3: of life and all the noise in the racket she's
Speaker 3: living in. And she finds one letter from England with
Speaker 3: an air mail stamp on it, and then she touches it,
Speaker 3: opens it and she gets a whiff of ego as Chanel.
Speaker 3: Now that's a sensory trick, you know.
Speaker 2: You don't.
Speaker 3: I can't do that to guys because they think.
Speaker 2: I was a bit weird.
Speaker 3: But with her, she bit and she wrote straight back
Speaker 3: and she said, Christopher, you must be psychic. That's my favorite.
Speaker 3: That's ego is Chanel. I didn't. And then we had
Speaker 3: long correspondence, beautiful handwriting everything else, and and then of
Speaker 3: course ultimately you fall out with these people, you suck
Speaker 3: them dry, and then you get rid of them.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And that's so it's it's this approach that people have
Speaker 3: to look at and you have to be careful. And
Speaker 3: you mentioned mind Hunter. The guys going in they do
Speaker 3: their homework beforehand. You know, they don't just walk in
Speaker 3: and say I want to interview you. They go right back.
Speaker 1: Right, so then they know who they're talking to. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you find that all of those people you've communicated
Speaker 1: are say that they're innocent?
Speaker 3: Isn't it strange most of them are. I've I've never
Speaker 3: met a guilty man in prison, and I'm the only,
Speaker 3: must be the only writer in the world that's trying
Speaker 3: to get into prison to interview people that are trying
Speaker 3: to get out, right, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, they all say they're innocent. In almost every like
Speaker 1: Supermax or whatever. They all nobody says, yeah, you're justly
Speaker 1: as my understanding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3: I mean Dougie Clark, the Sunset Slayer, I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: if you ever want, if you ever got the sort
Speaker 3: of idealistic, sort of persona of a serial go and
Speaker 3: meet Doggie Clark at San Quentin. I mean, he's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 3: His teeth are falling out, he's looking rough. I went
Speaker 3: down with a film crew. We filmed him one of
Speaker 3: those TV programs. He was effing and it took me
Speaker 3: about ten minutes to shut him up. He was swearing
Speaker 3: the filth coming out of his mouth. Yeah, he's got
Speaker 3: a great hit, you know. I actually believe that he
Speaker 3: could be innocent. Funny enough, I've got enough documents to
Speaker 3: say that. I think this guy's it was a mud
Speaker 3: getting involved with this woman. But it wasn't just it
Speaker 3: wasn't Clark. It was a guy called Jack Murray that
Speaker 3: was with this girl woman that was doing the killings.
Speaker 3: But he's got a great sense of humor. So in
Speaker 3: that respect, I quite like Doggie because he says it
Speaker 3: as it is. He doesn't he doesn't try and smooth
Speaker 3: and bullshit you like Kenneth Byank and all these other
Speaker 3: He didn't try and sort of on you. He says
Speaker 3: that as it is.
Speaker 1: Kenneth Bianke was kind of notorious with that, right The
Speaker 1: Hillside Stranger was notorious for trying to manipulate people Faye
Speaker 1: and say or schizophrenia like. He was kind of a
Speaker 1: more cunning, clever, serial killer. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3: Well, there's clever and there is clever, isn't that? I
Speaker 3: meant it was Oscar wild or somebody said, you know,
Speaker 3: you know he's in this prison, he said, but he
Speaker 3: felt his intelligence was slightly above all of the rest
Speaker 3: of the other inmates. But on the other hand, he
Speaker 3: was stupid because he got caught. Right, the Yankee people
Speaker 3: call his people intelligent. Robinson even he was a commn
Speaker 3: He he convinced that the then physician for the President
Speaker 3: of the United States to give him a job. I mean,
Speaker 3: he hadn't got a clue about medicine. But you know,
Speaker 3: the con men, they're sort of homicidal doll boys. But
Speaker 3: we might perceive them to be intelligent. But look, but
Speaker 3: they eventually undo themselves. They can't be that bright. And
Speaker 3: if they they were intelligent, why would they want to
Speaker 3: spend their whole god given life locked up behind bars
Speaker 3: in the stink in prison. That's not intelligence, is it.
Speaker 1: No, they would they would be much more careful to
Speaker 1: not be caught, right. I would think they probably had
Speaker 1: the false impression that they would never be caught, and
Speaker 1: then they got caught.
Speaker 3: That's because they got this extreme narcissistic personality, and that
Speaker 3: runs right through all of the serial killers, with a
Speaker 3: few exceptions. I don't think Alien Wernos had it. But
Speaker 3: you look at Bundy for instance. Look out what a
Speaker 3: narcissist he was. Most of them are narcissists that control freaks,
Speaker 3: and this is what this is what causes their undoing.
Speaker 3: They think like bt K and people like that. They
Speaker 3: think they're better, they can out with the law, but
Speaker 3: they can't.
Speaker 1: Right, No, it's really true. You really think they can
Speaker 1: get away with it. Yeah, No, it's incredible. I mean
Speaker 1: you're what your book on Aileen Warno's who you just
Speaker 1: mentioned was made into that movie Monster. I believe the
Speaker 1: lad actress got an oscar for that. What are your
Speaker 1: impressions of her? And she was kind of unique in
Speaker 1: that she was a female serial killer. What was your
Speaker 1: impressions of her?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: When I wrote the book, the first book Talking to
Speaker 3: serial Killers, my publisher said, can't we find a woman
Speaker 3: to put in there? And I'd only very briefly met Lee.
Speaker 3: I mean it was only just a five minute thing.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a long thing. And I said yeah, And
Speaker 3: I started to research a history and as I started
Speaker 3: to read the history. I started drinking whiskey, believe it
Speaker 3: or not, and I started One night I broke down
Speaker 3: in tears reading about history. And this poor girl went
Speaker 3: through hell. You know, a grand a step father. Her
Speaker 3: father was hung himself. He was a sex in prison,
Speaker 3: he was a sex offender. Her stepfather was a miserable
Speaker 3: bustard who whipped her with the belt, stripped and whitcher.
Speaker 3: I mean, this girl went through hell and she went
Speaker 3: on what Americans called the lamb. She was a bright
Speaker 3: little cookie and she ended up in Florida where she
Speaker 3: met Tia Moore and they fell in love. And Lee
Speaker 3: was an interstate hooker. The remarkable thing was at her trial,
Speaker 3: a lot of her customers, clients, wanted to come forward
Speaker 3: and give evidence to say, look, she was good, she
Speaker 3: was a good girl. You paid the money and she
Speaker 3: did the tricks, and then everybody was happy. But she
Speaker 3: killed seven men. And those seven men were like, one
Speaker 3: was a pastor and only one was an ex clot,
Speaker 3: sort of like moral bigots. One was getting engaged, one
Speaker 3: was a woman beat her anyway, and they started beating
Speaker 3: her about and smacking her around the face, and so
Speaker 3: she pulled out this six shot revolver and killed him. Now,
Speaker 3: if that had happened in England with Peter Sutcliffe and
Speaker 3: one of the girls has had a and shot him,
Speaker 3: we wouldn't be all those deaths now. And I when
Speaker 3: I went down to Florida and I interviewed the cops,
Speaker 3: the cops, she never once grasped up Teria More. Terria
Speaker 3: Moore put her in the frame. Teria Moore was one
Speaker 3: of those homicides. She was an accomplice in one homicide.
Speaker 3: At least the cops did a deal with Teria Moore.
Speaker 3: They bought new houses to cops and new car. They
Speaker 3: stitched Lee up, and Lee kept her mouth shut all
Speaker 3: along because she desperately Lovedterrea. And she realized the police
Speaker 3: had manipulated her her girlfriend. And I felt that so tragic.
Speaker 3: I felt that so sad. And then they executed this
Speaker 3: poorn woman and she was crazy. Then it was no
Speaker 3: need for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if she was ever really well.
Speaker 1: I think she was like abused constantly when she was young.
Speaker 1: Just all kinds of.
Speaker 3: Me, That's what I mean, right from the.
Speaker 2: What other I mean, do you?
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious about the Satanic you were in
Speaker 1: correspondence with Robin Ghekt of the Ripper Crew, and they
Speaker 1: were kind of like a Satanic crew. He still denies
Speaker 1: his involvement in any of that stuff. What are your
Speaker 1: impressions of Robin.
Speaker 3: Ghekt, Well, you know, again, I'm putting some of this
Speaker 3: stuff in the book. I mean, I think he's guilty.
Speaker 3: You know, people can protest their innocence to the cows
Speaker 3: come Home. But you know, one of the great places
Speaker 3: to go if you're thinking about writing or reading about
Speaker 3: these people is the first of all to go on
Speaker 3: on the on the appropriate Department of Correction website and
Speaker 3: see their prison history, a little bit about their prison
Speaker 3: history and who they are. And the second thing is
Speaker 3: to look up the appeals. Now most of these killers
Speaker 3: have gone through the appellate system, the Supreme court system
Speaker 3: or something like that, and then you see stuff that
Speaker 3: you would not see anywhere else. So Robin Ghek might
Speaker 3: say something about something, but then if you go to
Speaker 3: the Pellette papers, you'll see the witnesses who said, what, when, how,
Speaker 3: and further details of the crime. I've just done a killer.
Speaker 3: His name has been executed. Just my mind's gone blank.
Speaker 3: Who wrote a really lovely letter to me, and I'll
Speaker 3: tell you what. It was beautifully written. There wasn't a
Speaker 3: spelling mistake anywhere in it. And you know you're seeing
Speaker 3: what a nice guy. You must be innocent. But then
Speaker 3: when you read the appellete papers, and when I said
Speaker 3: to them, well, tell me about the crimes, I said,
Speaker 3: you've missed. You've missed one out. You've missed not only
Speaker 3: did you kill six people, but what about your girlfriend
Speaker 3: that you literally tore a womb out with your hand
Speaker 3: and poked her eyes out. You didn't mention that to me.
Speaker 2: You see it? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's what they say. What they forget to say, Kenneth,
Speaker 3: be thank you for it. Forgets to say anything until
Speaker 3: you till all of a sudden and the FBI give
Speaker 3: you some documents that you prove that. Oh you told
Speaker 3: me you were a non secrator, Kenneth, naughty boy, But
Speaker 3: look I've got the FBI papers here to prove that
Speaker 3: you were.
Speaker 2: Thanks right, the omission.
Speaker 1: The mission is the greatest form of a live So
Speaker 1: they leave all that stuff out because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of like innocent fraud happening in the United States right now,
Speaker 1: where some of these guys who've killed people, maybe not
Speaker 1: silly serial killers, but people who've done murders. You know,
Speaker 1: they have these women, weak minded women who think that.
Speaker 2: We're not not always females, but uh.
Speaker 1: You think that there's some reason they should get out
Speaker 1: with all the evidence when you and they should go
Speaker 1: look at the appellad evens because some of these guys
Speaker 1: are very nasty characters.
Speaker 3: I mean, the big thing in America will be Innocent Project.
Speaker 3: You can see it on Netflix. They do a fantastic
Speaker 3: job where the police have fished people up, and you
Speaker 3: know all the bike marks they just they did. They've
Speaker 3: now debunked all this bike mark technology. You know, the
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy with his teeth thing. They've debunked a lot
Speaker 3: of that now. But you do get a lot of
Speaker 3: can I say, murder groupies, you get men doing it.
Speaker 3: I wrote a book called murder dot Com and I
Speaker 3: went to Russia and did some mathia stuff out there
Speaker 3: with and you know the dating agencies and stuff. Men
Speaker 3: men are just as stupid. They fall in love with
Speaker 3: these women behind bars and the woman sends them a
Speaker 3: picture of some beautiful Russian tennis player and says, look,
Speaker 3: I'm in prison, I need a bit of money, and
Speaker 3: the guy falls in love with her and starts sending
Speaker 3: a loads of cash. But if they had the intelligence
Speaker 3: to look up up the woman's doc details, they'd see
Speaker 3: that she was about fifty stone, had more fair tatoos
Speaker 3: and a fairground worker. And you know, and there was
Speaker 3: one guy, one woman down in Florida. She was on
Speaker 3: women behind bars and she was raking and so much
Speaker 3: cash that the prison couldn't count it all.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're probably all getting money. Yeah in this book,
Speaker 1: this particular books free Killers and mass Murders. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have a background in the military. You said you
Speaker 1: were a commando in Northern Ireland, spent time in hospitals,
Speaker 1: and you talk about your knowledge of guns, but you're
Speaker 1: also very critical of about americans attitudes about guns and
Speaker 1: how and they're involving in the spree killers. Can you
Speaker 1: share your thoughts on that subject?
Speaker 2: Well, I did.
Speaker 3: I actually did a podcast with a guy down in Florida.
Speaker 3: He was ex military as well, and we talked about
Speaker 3: this very subject about easy access to firearms in the
Speaker 3: United States of America, and he said, well, look, Chris,
Speaker 3: I can go and buy a gun easily, he said.
Speaker 3: But he said, but I know how to use it.
Speaker 3: I know what damage it can do. Another thing, the
Speaker 3: big gripe I've got, and it's the fact that when
Speaker 3: the founding fathers said that every citizen can right to
Speaker 3: bear guns, back then they only had flint lock pistols
Speaker 3: and muskets. And it takes three minutes to load a musket.
Speaker 3: If it's raining and there's can shed load of the
Speaker 3: enemy tearing down at you'll probably take about a minute
Speaker 3: to load it. You'd be shaking like hell. They didn't
Speaker 3: anticipate that one hundred years later, or less than one
Speaker 3: hundred years later, firearms would be like AK forty seven's.
Speaker 3: You know, they never they never planned it that because
Speaker 3: they couldn't foresee the future. I mean, when the Wright
Speaker 3: brothers first took off in that glorified kite and flew
Speaker 3: one hundred yards at Kitty Hawk, they would never imagine
Speaker 3: that less than one hundred years later, Concord were flying
Speaker 3: over the Atlantic a lot, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So no, yeah, you're right, the Americans, and then you
Speaker 3: get these Americans that I remember the Dune Blade massacre.
Speaker 3: You know, Andy Murray, the tennis player he was a
Speaker 3: pupil at the school at the time. He's still traumatized
Speaker 3: with it for life now. Now, when that man Hamilton
Speaker 3: went into that class that school, he had to caliber
Speaker 3: handguns the same as Dirty Harry had. I mean, they'll
Speaker 3: stop a mack truck. Those things and the point rank range.
Speaker 3: He blew the heads off of those little kids. They've
Speaker 3: got an idiot on. Some guy on YouTube is going,
Speaker 3: I've got come along, guys, I've got Frankie's gunshot, and
Speaker 3: we're going to go down today and we're going to
Speaker 3: show what the forty five cow can do to a
Speaker 3: steel plate. And he stands one hundred yards away from
Speaker 3: it and fire it and blow a hole through it.
Speaker 3: And then he has it blowed down the barrel and say,
Speaker 3: what a sweet little piece. But if these people look,
Speaker 3: they don't realize. You look at the post mortem photographs
Speaker 3: and some child has been hitting the head by around
Speaker 3: like that it's disappeared, the head's gone. And I think Americans,
Speaker 3: really I've got I know it's going to be a
Speaker 3: sore point to a lot of people, and I do
Speaker 3: debate it, and a lot of teachers out there, I
Speaker 3: mean the teachers out there are going wearing flat jackets
Speaker 3: and a pistol in the handbag. I mean, my boy
Speaker 3: goes to a private school. They don't have that fear.
Speaker 3: We can go to McDonald's here and not worry about
Speaker 3: having the place blown up. The country's got neurotic.
Speaker 1: No, there's a lot of weaponry here. I mean you
Speaker 1: mentioned it in the book, but you don't shy away
Speaker 1: from those descriptions. And I think that your style is
Speaker 1: important because the US is attitude. Violence is what they
Speaker 1: see on TV, so they almost have a Hollywood eyed,
Speaker 1: fictionalized view. They don't understand the real brutality of these
Speaker 1: things like that. You also make an interesting point I
Speaker 1: didn't know is that the Second Amendments based upon the
Speaker 1: seventeenth century Bill of Rights from the UK.
Speaker 2: Right. Correct, Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: It definitely it's worth rethinking, I would say, for sure,
Speaker 1: at least as an American, I mean I do. I
Speaker 1: was against the red flag laws, although they implemented some
Speaker 1: red flag laws recently that I actually agreed with. I
Speaker 1: didn't actually agree with it when they passed that. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with the red flag
Speaker 1: laws there, if somebody is dangerous and as guns, the
Speaker 1: government can move in and take them away.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'm familiar with it. But the one thing that
Speaker 3: sticks in my crawl is the fact that they bang
Speaker 3: on about being the land of the free, you know,
Speaker 3: the land of the free. Well, they're not the land
Speaker 3: of the free. They're living in a total state of paranoia.
Speaker 3: There's no, absolute, no doubt about that. I spend a
Speaker 3: lot of my time in the Philippines, not at the
Speaker 3: moment because of COVID. I've done work out there with
Speaker 3: homicide police in Manila, and you know, I know the
Speaker 3: police and I know the prison systems out there. There
Speaker 3: has never been a serial killer in the Philippines.
Speaker 2: Interesting, it's all history.
Speaker 3: There has never been a serial killer in the Philippines period.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3: Well, one, I mean they, I mean I must have
Speaker 3: met President Herty has got a way of get rid
Speaker 3: of drug dealers, you know, like fifteen thousands of them
Speaker 3: end up dead or because they allegedly brought a gun
Speaker 3: out and the police shoot them and then they get
Speaker 3: executed out. They don't mess about out there. They shoot
Speaker 3: the police, shoot them stone dead. But there is something
Speaker 3: about the the Philippine culture is very I know, it's
Speaker 3: a silly thing to say, but they're very much family orientated.
Speaker 3: They're very simple. Majority are very simple and poor people.
Speaker 3: They don't have a lot of what you know, they
Speaker 3: haven't got a lot of like greed in them. And
Speaker 3: the further you come west from from the Orient or
Speaker 3: from Asia, the more you come west, come to England,
Speaker 3: and then you're Germany England, and then when you get
Speaker 3: to America you suddenly find out how materialistic society has become.
Speaker 3: I go to Russia and you know, they'll invite you
Speaker 3: into their home. They love you because you're a brit
Speaker 3: You know, you're straight, you take a little gifts off,
Speaker 3: you take your shoes off when you go in. They
Speaker 3: adore the British believer or not. The Russians they adorous
Speaker 3: because of the little island thing, you know in the
Speaker 3: last war. And same in Ukraine. And they give you
Speaker 3: a lot of respect, but they're by they'll buy a
Speaker 3: kettle or a free fridge, and they're people for decades
Speaker 3: and decades and decades, or a television set. They have
Speaker 3: it for years and years and years. They look after
Speaker 3: it because they can't afford anything. You go to America
Speaker 3: and they're trashing stuff every five minutes.
Speaker 2: It's true. I mean it's planned.
Speaker 1: It's obsolescence and constant consumerism, I think is really predominant
Speaker 1: here in the States. That's not the same in other countries.
Speaker 1: If you travel out of the States. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you get a new carver three years at least something.
Speaker 1: I got a couple of questions from the audience. One is,
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts about the hand of death
Speaker 1: material and Henry Lee Lucas and kissing. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: a person who's had a lot of conversation with police
Speaker 1: and journalists as well.
Speaker 3: What what Henry I mean, I interviewed Henry Ellis Unit. Uh,
Speaker 3: that's where death Row was at the time. They moved
Speaker 3: it now because Henry died of natural causes. Bless him.
Speaker 3: He got a pardon from the governor. He was ill
Speaker 3: at the time when and so with his one eye
Speaker 3: gungey and stuff like that. He actually said to me,
Speaker 3: he said, look, we got we got him on cameras well.
Speaker 3: For me, he said to my I done killed nobody, Chris,
Speaker 3: he said. And then in the same bed he said, well,
Speaker 3: I don't kill my mum. And then I killed my
Speaker 3: sister because she she said, I don't kill my mum,
Speaker 3: but I haven't killed anybody else. Well, you know, whoever's
Speaker 3: asked the question will know that. When he was arrested,
Speaker 3: the police came from all over the United States and saying, Henry,
Speaker 3: did you do this? And did you do that? And
Speaker 3: they got a new teeth and they got him in
Speaker 3: suit and the gripp and grins, and he was confessing
Speaker 3: to murders that were two hundred miles apart that he
Speaker 3: could look on the same day. So the police are
Speaker 3: clearing up all their cold cases, right, and Henry's luxury
Speaker 3: actually got some lovely letters from Henry. You know, he
Speaker 3: writes quite He used to write quite well. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: Henry was a good old boy. I mean, he only
Speaker 3: got convicted of one murder and that was the Orange
Speaker 3: Stocks killing, you know, the girl that was found naked
Speaker 3: in a ditch by the side of a freeway. He
Speaker 3: was all right. I didn't meet Otis Toole, I didn't
Speaker 3: get to see him, but Henry was all right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Those guys were terrible, terrible duo actually, the hottest tool
Speaker 1: and the very strange.
Speaker 3: I went around with my crew all around Texas film
Speaker 3: in locations, talking to sheriffs and cots and das and stuff,
Speaker 3: and like you say that they live in cowboy land
Speaker 3: out there, you know, tumble wheat towns. You know. I went,
Speaker 3: we went to a cafe in one little place where
Speaker 3: Henry was what stayed. I went to a cafe there
Speaker 3: and there were bullet holes in the outside wall and
Speaker 3: I said, well they doing Oh no, that was this
Speaker 3: used to be a bank. This would Ronnie and Clyde
Speaker 3: shot this up that we keep the bullet holes.
Speaker 1: And Texas is a different state, there's no question about it.
Speaker 1: Different and certainly on some of the smaller towns, different
Speaker 1: different mentality. A lot of people are packing a lot
Speaker 1: of trucks, let them pretty curious. Do you think that
Speaker 1: there's any subtext or an agenda to some of these
Speaker 1: serial killers?
Speaker 3: Let me think about that question in as much as
Speaker 3: well most most of serial killers have interviewed, uh, sex
Speaker 3: killers for instance, you know the sex killers be Yankee
Speaker 3: for instance, or Harvey the Hammer, other serial killers. I
Speaker 3: mean this is women don't kill for sexual purposes. Women
Speaker 3: serial killers or black widows kill for monetary game. Normally
Speaker 3: alien werenos was completely different.
Speaker 2: Cattle the fish.
Speaker 3: But there are men that will commit serial homicide for money.
Speaker 3: J Robinson was an American. The englishman I witnessed being
Speaker 3: hanged in Changy. John Martin scripts he killed for financial gain,
Speaker 3: you know, robbing his victims and then chopping them up
Speaker 3: and stuff. But mostly the people are more interested in
Speaker 3: really are sex killers. I mean, Ronnie Deffia are the
Speaker 3: Amateur for Horror. He just died recently. I went to
Speaker 3: interview him. I've got a lot of letters from him.
Speaker 3: Blew his family of sixty death at one one twelve
Speaker 3: Ocean Avenue in Long Island. He was a fucking heart
Speaker 3: half with that man. They made the film The Amateur
Speaker 3: for Horror series, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well Haunted by It.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's all rubbish. That's all rubbish, that story.
Speaker 3: But the thing is they're all as different teachers, chalk
Speaker 3: and a lump of stinking Bishops cheese. They're all totally different, all.
Speaker 1: Different, and just out of curiosity, you are the lineal
Speaker 1: descendant of doctor John d Is that coat of arms
Speaker 1: that your family has as that trace back to Dee?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was presented to by Queen Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think so.
Speaker 3: He was this alchemist and stuff like that. I mean,
Speaker 3: he actually formed the first great British libraries body in
Speaker 3: library for instance. He was a well traveled man, born
Speaker 3: out of his time, very clever guy. He tried to
Speaker 3: turn but like that Blackadder thing, you know, Oh look,
Speaker 3: I've got a piece of green. You know, he tried
Speaker 3: to turn base metal into gold. And I always say
Speaker 3: to people, well, that's that I've got doctor John D's
Speaker 3: genes in me. I've been trying to turn pen and
Speaker 3: ink into gold for years, but I haven't succeeded yet.
Speaker 1: A little, I mean definitely some. I mean, you've had
Speaker 1: the best selling bung of twenty seventeen. That's an accomplishment.
Speaker 1: But he also had that Onokian magical system, which is
Speaker 1: still around, passed through Crowley and Hubbard and all the
Speaker 1: other characters.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's truly fascinating. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I actually did a show on John D. If
Speaker 1: people want to go back and look on one of
Speaker 1: my shoes. But that's a very complex character. I mean,
Speaker 1: all his mapping and the way he very very curious,
Speaker 1: intelligent guy. People are still using his techniques to this day,
Speaker 1: at least magical techniques is not as far as my
Speaker 1: understanding is, but it is fascinating that you are related
Speaker 1: to him. He had the biggest library in Europe at
Speaker 1: one point. I think, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 3: That's right, You're correct. I mean I I sometimes I've
Speaker 3: got these lovely pictures of Dr John d Up on
Speaker 3: my wall, and I sometimes imagine if I had a
Speaker 3: skull cap, you know, like one of those skull cap
Speaker 3: things on and a rough my nose and everything looks
Speaker 3: like Dr John Dee.
Speaker 1: You kind of do have a resemblance. I actually agree
Speaker 1: with that one hundred percent. I mean he was, I mean,
Speaker 1: his pictures, all his pictures of him is with you know,
Speaker 1: gray Beard, kind of almost.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I want to say something to you. And
Speaker 3: your viewers might think I'll completely start raving Bonkerson and
Speaker 3: I should be putting up in a mental hospital. But
Speaker 3: I actually do feel, and I'm being sincere now that
Speaker 3: I feel Doctor Jon D's inside me all watching over me. Interesting,
Speaker 3: and I really feel that power sometimes.
Speaker 1: So maybe you maybe it passes through the general. How
Speaker 1: many generations have passed from d to you? Do you
Speaker 1: know of found not off the top of America.
Speaker 3: I mean the family goes back seven eight hundred years
Speaker 3: to Roderic, the Great Prince of Wales, and he was
Speaker 3: He came from Radner by the side of the River
Speaker 3: D in Wales, hence the name not the Scottish D,
Speaker 3: but the Welsh River D. And it went on and
Speaker 3: then I've got the family tree somewhere. It goes right back.
Speaker 3: But then Dr D son of Beido D had quite
Speaker 3: a few children. And as you know as well as
Speaker 3: I do, if you go to Mortlake, there's a church there.
Speaker 3: He's actually got a stone in the church where he's
Speaker 3: allegedly buried. You can visit his old what's left of
Speaker 3: his old house. And if you walk around that loop
Speaker 3: in the river there in the Thames, that's where Queen
Speaker 3: Elizabeth came up in the barge to see him when
Speaker 3: she had somebody sent her a wax thing with pins
Speaker 3: in it. And you can stand there, and if you're
Speaker 3: into doctor John D you can feel him that because
Speaker 3: that's where we stood, really, by the side of that
Speaker 3: little thing there, and when you go there, and if
Speaker 3: you're into D, you do feel it personally.
Speaker 1: And I think that there was some other story. He
Speaker 1: was in a library in Manchester and Witness the Devil.
Speaker 1: I think there's that story about D. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of curious elements to his life for sure, communicating with angels,
Speaker 1: supposedly angels and maybe demons.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 1: I got one more question for you, Christopher, howd you go?
Speaker 1: Do you think that it is a mental impairment that
Speaker 1: propels these individuals to commit these crimes?
Speaker 3: Could you say that again? You broke on?
Speaker 2: Sure? Let me put this up here.
Speaker 1: It's on you can read it right on the screen
Speaker 1: right now. It says My question is, does Christopher think
Speaker 1: that it is a mental impairment that propels these individuals
Speaker 1: to commit these crimes?
Speaker 3: Not serial killers? No, Very briefly. A lot of this
Speaker 3: is brought up at mitigation, at trial or an appeal.
Speaker 3: My son will be yankee for example, bad potty train
Speaker 3: fell down, bumped his head, blah blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 3: you know, and a lot of that, A lot you
Speaker 3: get this bullshit mitigation from lawyers blowing smoke in the
Speaker 3: in the courts yard. What it What it is is
Speaker 3: these people know what they're doing is wrong. They're not
Speaker 3: technically they're not criminally insane under them Norton rules. In
Speaker 3: other words, they knew what they were doing were wrong.
Speaker 3: They weren't out of control at the time. And you've
Speaker 3: got to remember this. A person that's totally out of
Speaker 3: control would only probably kill once in a rage, some
Speaker 3: fantasy driven rage. He'd be That would be insane. He
Speaker 3: didn't know what he was doing, and you know that's
Speaker 3: that legal insanity. But these serial killers go on and
Speaker 3: on and on and they call down in between events, right,
Speaker 3: Michael Ross, You know he knew what was doing was wrong.
Speaker 3: You can't claim it's suddenly a sudden insanity. I was
Speaker 3: mad at the time, ball I was okay. Afterwards, I
Speaker 3: went and had dunkin Donuts and talked to the cops,
Speaker 3: and then a week later I suddenly got insane again
Speaker 3: and killed somebody else. It's bullshit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point, really good point. And your
Speaker 1: website again, let me put that up again. Your website
Speaker 1: is all your full name altogether is www dot Christopher
Speaker 1: Barry d dot com.
Speaker 2: So it's Christopher B. E R R y d ee
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 3: Right, that's it. That's great.
Speaker 1: And you can see a list of all your books
Speaker 1: and all the places you've been, I mean, tons of
Speaker 1: shows and things like that, tons of information. Is there
Speaker 1: anything you'd like to add or anything I missed before?
Speaker 1: We wrap this up.
Speaker 3: Well, no, I mean, as I mentioned at the promo before,
Speaker 3: I mean I just had the book published in Japan.
Speaker 3: I can't read it. I don't even know what's in it,
Speaker 3: although I wrote it, which is rough strange. All I
Speaker 3: would just say to your viewers, you know, no nightmares,
Speaker 3: please and be happy and be nice to each other,
Speaker 3: but also be careful, especially the women.
Speaker 2: Be careful. Girls.
Speaker 3: Don't take risks at night, don't go and do silly
Speaker 3: things when you're drunk or anything like that, because there
Speaker 3: are predators out there and they're hiding in the shadows,
Speaker 3: and you'll never come across the city. Well, you won't
Speaker 3: know a serial killer until he hits it and then
Speaker 3: it's too late, So just be careful.
Speaker 1: That's excellent advice, really good point. And I actually really
Speaker 1: enjoyed your writing style as well. Is very unique, so
Speaker 1: you actually have a very broad frame of reference.
Speaker 2: You can see that.
Speaker 3: I'll very quickly bring on this before we go. I've
Speaker 3: read a lot of Bill Bryson's books. I know Bill,
Speaker 3: he's read one of mine or two of mine. He's
Speaker 3: got this irreverence on his travels. He brings cats along
Speaker 3: with him or you know, his mate, or he'll be
Speaker 3: somewhere talking about something and then you go off on
Speaker 3: a tangent and he brings the reader along on his
Speaker 3: travels with him. That's what I try to do with
Speaker 3: my book books. I try to bring an anecdotes to
Speaker 3: what a place is like, what it's like to go
Speaker 3: and visit these people, what sort of you know, Ricky,
Speaker 3: the old plane you travel in. So the reader becomes
Speaker 3: part of me, and I become part of the reader.
Speaker 3: So we're on a coach trip together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3: And then they know Christopher berry d And then they
Speaker 3: know I talk straight. I don't bullshit anything. I cut
Speaker 3: out the psychobabble, and the reader gets it because it's
Speaker 3: the We don't need to get all this bs from
Speaker 3: psychologists and psychiatrists who've never met a serial killer in
Speaker 3: their lives. I've met thirty of them, and I've touched them,
Speaker 3: and I've smelt them, you know, and been banged up
Speaker 3: in a room with them when they're unshackled or they
Speaker 3: can flip. The whole thing is is I like the
Speaker 3: reader to see it. It's our children, our parents, our
Speaker 3: grandparents that are being murdered, especially in the States. For
Speaker 3: a handful of bucks. Let's say as it is.
Speaker 1: Makes sense and again the author is Christopher Barry D.
Speaker 1: And the book we kind of covered today as well
Speaker 1: as some other books, is Talking with Psychopaths and Sad
Speaker 1: Spree Killers and Mass Murders, published twenty twenty one. Christopher,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: All Right, God bless you will.
Speaker 2: Oh, God bless you. Okay, so that'll go