1 00:00:15,119 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: S. 2 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:33,439 Speaker 2: What up? Everybody? 3 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul. My name 4 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:38,320 is Paul Laven after your hosts, and as always, I 5 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:41,200 come to you on so many different social media platforms 6 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,759 that you can listen to our podcast. But if you 7 00:00:42,799 --> 00:00:45,880 want to get it easy, just go to our website 8 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,520 and get our free mobile app. And if you don't 9 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,920 want to go to my website, which is Fasttracksystem dot com, 10 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,359 you can also go to www dot N E C 11 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,759 C H A T dot com and you can get 12 00:00:57,799 --> 00:00:59,640 our mobile app downloaded on your phone. 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,399 Speaker 2: Don't work. It's not any bloatwear. 14 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: It's just a link to our web based mobile app 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,480 because I change it all the time. I had calculators, 16 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:10,439 I had the ability to chat on there, upload pictures, 17 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,799 we have blogs on there. You can get the fast 18 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:15,599 Tracks tube on there. You got calculators, You've got all 19 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:18,760 kinds of goodies there for free. Not trying to sell 20 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:19,319 you anything. 21 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: It's free, all right, all right, welcome to Let's Ask Paul. 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,159 Speaker 1: And today's question was submitted and I will you know, 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,280 kind of tell you just you know already I have 24 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:34,599 answered this question for the gentleman. So he's already gotten 25 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:37,560 the email because I felt this was one that I 26 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:39,239 could answer while I was on the fly. 27 00:01:39,359 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: I think I was traveling or doing something. 28 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,599 Speaker 1: But anyway, I answered it and he already got his answer, 29 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,519 but Darlene had pinned it because it's still a good 30 00:01:47,599 --> 00:01:52,280 question because it digs into a question of tapping feeders 31 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:55,120 and can you have more than feeders in a system? 32 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:57,319 And you know, whereas you have a feeder feeding a 33 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:00,239 panel with another feeder, and so again, it was a 34 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:03,200 great question for us to elaborate on. So I want 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,640 to go to it right now. That will submitted and 36 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,080 it says it says, Hi, Paul, I've been catching some 37 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:11,960 of your coffee hours as I'm getting ready to head 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:12,879 out to work. 39 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for doing that. 40 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: I know you went over feeder taps, but I don't 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,680 have the time to see the whole hour plus. 42 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: Boy, what are you trying to say? Bro? 43 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: Are you trying to say that I'm long winded? I 44 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:32,280 know that's what you're saying, But it's okay. I can 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,560 accept that I am long winded. Sometimes I'm obnoxious. Sometimes 46 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,759 I'm just not worthy of people wanting to listen to me. 47 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: It's okay. I don't get I don't worry about that 48 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,240 type of thing. I'm here to teach. I move on, positive, 49 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:45,840 move forward. Okay. 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,319 Speaker 1: So you're asking about feeder taps. Okay, all right, so 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,960 feeder taps. So let's get into that and we will 52 00:02:56,199 --> 00:02:57,400 go to the rest of your question. 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: Okay. So the question goes on to. 54 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,719 Speaker 1: Say it says, if we look at the definition of 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,479 feeder and the definition of branch circuit, I feel there's 56 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,199 a gap between them. 57 00:03:09,319 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: Maybe. 58 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,039 Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm gonna show you that there's not a gap, 59 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:13,400 but I get your feeling. 60 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:17,039 Speaker 2: It says the wire the wire. 61 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: We wire large residences and always have a feeder to 62 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,319 a subpanel or remote distribution panel or a remote load center. 63 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,400 However it makes you feel better. Uh, then the feed 64 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,919 then they feed another subpanel, load center, remote distribution panel, 65 00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:42,800 whatever from the first subpanel, load center distributing. You know, 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,759 if I don't say all of those, I always got 67 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,120 somebody that'll post something in a comment somewhere. 68 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Those are load center's poll or those are whatever, And 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,159 I'm like, dude, what do you do every day? Get 70 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:52,639 a life? 71 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: Okay, it's you know, I remember years ago, a little story. 72 00:03:57,159 --> 00:03:59,000 I remember years ago when people were using a term 73 00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:01,400 subpanel in this guy I was jumping all over people. 74 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:03,879 It was pretty well known educator. I don't know where 75 00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:05,599 he is today. He's not one of the big what 76 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,680 we call the big three is which I tell you 77 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:12,599 what I say, big three, I mean, I mean Ryan Jackson, 78 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,439 Mike Holton, myself. I consider us the Big three. Again, 79 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,360 you could say, Paul, you're very conceited. I don't care. 80 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,800 I think volume, in the number of listeners and the 81 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,519 stuff that we put out, I think those that's the 82 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:26,519 Big Three. You like it or not, That's just the 83 00:04:26,519 --> 00:04:29,439 way I feel about it. Okay, are there other educators 84 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:32,560 out there? Absolutely, but the Big three that's what we 85 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,240 think about. Okay, all right, anyway, I'll get some hate. 86 00:04:37,439 --> 00:04:39,319 I'll get some hate meal for that chit too. I'm 87 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,120 just saying, all right, so anyway it is Key goes 88 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,079 on to say, the wire between the two panels doesn't 89 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:50,399 fit the definition of a feeder or a branch circuit. 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,720 I'd like to know what it is. Is it a feeder? 91 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:58,680 Could we use the feeder tap rules on it? Bottom line, 92 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:01,879 I'd like to use rules on the wires between the 93 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:06,959 two panels. Can we and thinks okay, great question. 94 00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:08,959 Speaker 2: I appreciate the question. 95 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: So in understanding this question, we have to realize what 96 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,319 does the code say. 97 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,079 Speaker 2: A feeder is? What is a feeder? 98 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: So if we go look at the article one hundred 99 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,600 under feeder, it says quote all circuit conductors between the 100 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,120 service equipment, the source of separate drive system or other 101 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:35,000 power supply source, and the final branch circuit overcurrent device. 102 00:05:37,439 --> 00:05:37,879 Speaker 2: Folks. 103 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: So it is the feeder lies somewhere between the service 104 00:05:44,319 --> 00:05:49,360 and what the branch circuit overcurrent protected device. That might 105 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:53,360 be two panels down, but that's where it is. So 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,720 if I go from the service panel and I put 107 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,959 a breaker in there, and I'm going to feed a 108 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:05,040 panel that's in my basement, that's a feeder because that's 109 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:08,800 feeding another panel that has other overcurrent protected devices that are. 110 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,879 Speaker 2: In it for the brand circuits. Feeder. 111 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: Now, if I feed that panel with a feeder, and 112 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:18,800 now I'm in that second panel and I put another 113 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,480 two pole breaker in there, and I want to feed 114 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,360 another panel which I can that will have overcurrent protected 115 00:06:26,399 --> 00:06:29,360 devices in it that are protecting brand circuits out of 116 00:06:29,439 --> 00:06:34,160 that panel downstream, then it is still a feeder because 117 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:39,199 it's taking place between the service equipment and whatever the 118 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,959 final overcurrent protection be. And it just so happens that 119 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,360 you weren't done when you went from the main service 120 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,319 to that panel. Then you fed another panel where you 121 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:52,959 ultimately will have the final overcurrent protected device that feeds whatever. 122 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: Less say, receptacle circuit. Those are all feeders. Can I 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,839 apply the tap rules to those? Absolutely? I can. 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: If it is feeder, it's that conductor that is between 125 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:10,319 the service equipment and whatever the final overcurrent protective device is. 126 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:11,839 Speaker 2: So I can have a. 127 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: Panel feeding another panel, feeding another panel feeding another panel. 128 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,399 Those are feeders. You get me, Okay, So that's kind 129 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:23,160 of one of those things. Now we know we can't 130 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:26,920 tap a tap. So if you're talking about tap rules 131 00:07:26,959 --> 00:07:29,480 two forty twenty one B and you're applying these tap 132 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,920 rules to a feeder, just remember the whole concept of 133 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,519 a feeder tap is to be able to tap one 134 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:37,839 to conductor where typically the conductor would be less than 135 00:07:37,839 --> 00:07:41,439 the size of the conductor you're tapping, right, and the 136 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,519 overcurrent device is protecting the feeder, but it may be 137 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,160 too large to traditionally protect the tap conductor that's tapping 138 00:07:50,199 --> 00:07:53,879 onto the feeder unless you follow the rules into forty 139 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:54,600 dot twenty one B. 140 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: Then you're going to see that. 141 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: You know, in some cases, if you look at it, 142 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,160 you're like, okay, you know what it's it's okay, it's 143 00:08:00,199 --> 00:08:03,519 still protected, and it's protected by the what the feeders 144 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,720 disconnect the feeders over current protection. 145 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:09,399 Speaker 2: So again following those that's why we have tap rules. 146 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: So it may sound unorthodox, but the conductors are literally protected. 147 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: Okay. 148 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: So we can't now take a tap and tap a tap, 149 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,839 can't do that, but we certainly can tap feeders as 150 00:08:21,839 --> 00:08:23,759 long as we follow all the rules. 151 00:08:23,399 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: Within the National Electrical Code. Okay. 152 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: So hopefully that answered your question again for anybody out 153 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,800 there again that that's wondering what we're talking about. Again, 154 00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:36,080 it's service equipment supplying a remote panel that's in your basement, 155 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:38,279 let's say, and then later you go a, hey, I 156 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,840 want to go from there out to my garage from 157 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,159 that panel, okay, as I breaker space left in that one, 158 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:47,080 but I don't. And they're assuming everything sized, okay, and 159 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,360 what not. Assuming you've you've done your low caalcus and 160 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:52,759 you know what you're dealing with, and you've sized everything accordingly, uh, 161 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,360 and you've thought about future expansion and how you want 162 00:08:55,399 --> 00:08:58,200 to do this, that's okay. Then I can go from 163 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,399 that panel to another panel somewhere else and it's still 164 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,639 a feeder and you can still apply the tap rules 165 00:09:04,639 --> 00:09:05,080 if you want. 166 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. 167 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: Okay, so you really want to look at the definition 168 00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:14,200 of feeder, which is by the way, you know, when 169 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,519 you look at it, it's one of those things where 170 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:18,840 you're like, it makes sense only after you read it 171 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:22,879 and you go, okay, it makes sense, you know what 172 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:25,799 I'm saying. All right, So anyway, hopefully that answers your 173 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:29,720 question that you submitted, and I'm glad we could answer 174 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,600 it for you on this episode of Let's Ask Paul. 175 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,000 Let's see if we have any other questions we want 176 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,600 to answer in today's episode. Okay, so let's see, we 177 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,480 got time for another one. Let's go on to this one. 178 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:46,480 So this one's submitted and it's been been pinned by Jeff, 179 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,720 and I have answered this one again full disclosure, I 180 00:09:49,799 --> 00:09:53,360 have already answered the individual. But again he's marked it 181 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,639 because he thinks that many people can learn from this one. 182 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,480 So I will use it as a podcast on today. 183 00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:01,799 All right, it says good. More So, I have a 184 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:06,639 question I was doing a service upgrade, and the existing 185 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,200 grounding electrode was already landed in the old panel that 186 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,000 was back to back with the old service. Okay, says 187 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,200 I drove two new ground rods and separated the neutrals 188 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,879 in the old panels. Is now it's a remote distribution panel. Okay, 189 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:27,399 But do I have to run the bear from the 190 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,480 water pipe again to reach the outside new service or 191 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,360 is there any rule or exception that can that can 192 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:40,759 stay in the old existing panel that is back to 193 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,440 back with the new service. 194 00:10:42,519 --> 00:10:44,279 Speaker 2: Thank you for your knowledge. Okay. 195 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,799 Speaker 1: So I've already responded to this one, and let's go 196 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:50,759 through the concept here of what we're saying here. So 197 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:52,720 let me paint you this mental picture. So this gentleman 198 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:55,720 is doing a service change. It was the outside, let's 199 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,639 say it was the meter, and inside was the original 200 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,799 old panel. He's been called to come and do a 201 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,879 service change. Now he's got to bring it up. The 202 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:05,120 code he wants to put an emergency disconnect outside. Sounds 203 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,399 like that's also going to be his service disconnect as well, 204 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,240 So he moves that outside. So now the old panel 205 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:15,960 that was inside now becomes his remote distribution panel. So 206 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,600 obviously he's changed to all the conductors and now has 207 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,240 four conductors coming in that type of thing because the 208 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:22,600 service disconnect is outside. 209 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: Based on what he's kind of explained, so his question 210 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,679 is about the water pipe. 211 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: If that is truly an electrode, then it's terminated now 212 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:39,639 in the remote distribution panel or the load center subpanel, 213 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:40,759 however you want to flavor it. 214 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,159 Speaker 2: And he's saying, wait a minute, am I. 215 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: Screwed at this point because now out at the panel 216 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,879 outside where my service is, I put in my two 217 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:49,600 ground rods. 218 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,279 Speaker 2: Okay, So here's the first thing that we have to 219 00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:52,559 think of. 220 00:11:52,759 --> 00:11:56,519 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, the NEC is still going to demand that 221 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:02,080 GEC be connected GC, by the way, is grounding electro 222 00:12:02,159 --> 00:12:04,600 conductor in this case to the water pipe. It's still 223 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,440 going to be required that that get connected to the 224 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:07,919 ground a conductor at the service. 225 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: Okay. 226 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: So that is the first part. So we can't get 227 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:13,759 rid of that rule first. So it's got to make 228 00:12:13,799 --> 00:12:16,120 that connection. Now we'll look at some options here that 229 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:18,840 may or may not have, but that's the first rule. 230 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,039 Gcs have to be connected. You find all that in 231 00:12:21,039 --> 00:12:26,600 two fifty twenty four. Okay, there right now, one of 232 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:29,360 the things that I will tell this individual, is that 233 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,519 just because you had the old building had a connection 234 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,279 to a water pipe ground electrode, was it actually a 235 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:40,080 waterpipe electrode? Did it meet the requirements at twifty fifty 236 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,000 two A one? Was it ten feet in contact with 237 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,559 the earth? Did it qualifies electrode? I know they went 238 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,879 to the water pipe. Did they do it within five 239 00:12:47,919 --> 00:12:50,159 foot of entry? Did they do all those things that 240 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,519 would make it smell like a water pipe electrode and 241 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:55,960 all that type of stuff. And you're saying, well, I 242 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,799 don't know. Okay, Well, if they made a connection to 243 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:01,799 the water pipe in the building and it wasn't at 244 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,559 five foot of near's point of entry, and they made 245 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,759 it somewhere else, then one of the questions is it's 246 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:12,919 possible that they're just bonding the water pipes, right, and 247 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,720 so they may be just bonding them. 248 00:13:14,799 --> 00:13:17,039 Speaker 2: If that's the case, they're just following bonding rules. 249 00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:19,919 Speaker 1: You're required to bond the metal water piping system if 250 00:13:19,919 --> 00:13:23,200 that's what you have. You know, obviously people today are 251 00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:25,519 using pecks and all those other kind of non metallic 252 00:13:25,519 --> 00:13:29,000 products and you know, don't bond the waterline. But there's 253 00:13:29,039 --> 00:13:34,360 a difference between is there a water pipe electrode, and 254 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,720 so you have to qualify that first. So if it is, 255 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,679 then you're saying, okay, what can I do? What options 256 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:43,960 may I be able to talk my or have a 257 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,679 discussion with the AHJ Okay, Well, the easiest thing that 258 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:53,120 I would tell you is just move that connection out 259 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,799 to the outside service and connected to the ground and 260 00:13:55,799 --> 00:13:59,480 conductor out there. That's the easiest solution to just just 261 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,039 move it. You might be saying, well it's not long enough. Well, 262 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,759 you can irreversible crumpet, you can cad weld it, you know, 263 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,440 to extend it. There's options there. If you have a 264 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:14,559 crimp set that's irreversible, probably the easiest option. But there 265 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,399 are the things we need to look at here. Okay, 266 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,759 So now you didn't say what code cycle. 267 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: You are in. 268 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: Now don't believe you said what code edition you're in? 269 00:14:23,159 --> 00:14:24,840 So kind of interesting topic here. 270 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:26,279 Speaker 2: So in the. 271 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:31,399 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty edition, in earlier there was this allowance okay, 272 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:33,240 and I'm going to use this very loosely. This was 273 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:36,360 what's two fifty one allowance, And this was an allowance 274 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,679 where you could use an equipment grounding conductor as also 275 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,159 the grounding electrode conductor, which we have done in PV 276 00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:48,559 applications for years. There is a provision in there in 277 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:51,679 the twenty twenty and earlier under two fifty one twenty 278 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,960 one that says, you know what, here's an exception that's 279 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,840 going to say, you know what, I'll let you use 280 00:14:56,879 --> 00:14:59,519 the equipment ground and conductor also as the GC under 281 00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:00,519 the strict rules. 282 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: Under this exception means that. 283 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: The sizing of that GC and the sizing of that 284 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,000 equipment ground and conductor have to be adequate for whatever 285 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,200 purpose they're being used for. 286 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,039 Speaker 2: And if you're going to be using it also to 287 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:13,840 use it as. 288 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: An equipment ground and conductor as a GEC, then that 289 00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:19,720 equipment ground has to be the same size or larger 290 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,840 than what it would be required for GEC. You get 291 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,919 what I'm saying, and vice versa same thing. If you're sizing, 292 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480 you're using the EGC and you're extending the GZ, it 293 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,440 has to be at least the size that the GEC 294 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:31,960 would be. 295 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: Required under that exception. Okay, so. 296 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: People are saying in the twenty twenty three Paul, I 297 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,559 don't see that. That's because it was moved. It's now 298 00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:45,639 under two fifty one eighteen B so it was just moved. 299 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:50,399 So the exception is still there. And the exception is 300 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:53,000 is one of those things that you're going to really 301 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,600 have to sit with your AHJ and you're going to 302 00:15:55,679 --> 00:15:57,879 have to really communicate what you're doing here under your 303 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:58,840 unique situation. 304 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,879 Speaker 2: Okay, because it still has to be sized, right if 305 00:16:01,879 --> 00:16:03,879 you make the argument and say, okay, look, say. 306 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,919 Speaker 1: That the GEC is connected to the EGC if the 307 00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:10,279 EGC happens to be sized properly, so you can take 308 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,440 a two a wg copper let's say, as a GEC 309 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,200 to the water pipe ge to the electrode and so so, 310 00:16:18,279 --> 00:16:20,799 in other words, you can't take a two gauge copper 311 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,759 and connected to the water pipe ground and then connect 312 00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:24,240 it to. 313 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,559 Speaker 2: A four size four EGC. 314 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:29,679 Speaker 1: So the GEC, if it was required to be a 315 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,360 two and you bring it up into the panel, you 316 00:16:31,399 --> 00:16:34,320 can't connect it to let's say the equipment ground supplying 317 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:35,639 that panel was only. 318 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: A four gage. 319 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,399 Speaker 1: You can't do that, okay, because again the EGC is 320 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,480 smaller than the GEC's all these damn acronyms, and we're 321 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,639 slowly getting rid of these things in the code. And 322 00:16:46,679 --> 00:16:48,320 if you're not familiar with the GEC is a ground 323 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,000 electrode conductor that goes from the ground conductor down to 324 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:53,480 the electrode itself. 325 00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:56,039 Speaker 2: And then the that's the GEC. And then the EGC 326 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:56,799 is just an. 327 00:16:56,679 --> 00:16:59,879 Speaker 1: Equipment grounding conductor which also serves as an equipment bonding 328 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,320 in doctor. Everybody would like to get that verbage changed, 329 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,960 but it serves the same function in many cases, so. 330 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: You have some allowances. Okay, Now we have to look 331 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:13,400 at it. 332 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: So let's just throw it in a scenario where I 333 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,880 mean the what if scenario, because it's there for a reason. 334 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: What if you have a two hundred AMP. 335 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: Service and you're installing a feeder Okay, and now it's 336 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,759 going to be a two hundred A remote distribution inside, 337 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:30,480 so service outside you continue it on uh, and it's 338 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,319 going to be UH inside. 339 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:33,759 Speaker 2: Okay. 340 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: Now, let's assume that the EGC for that two panel 341 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,000 to that feeder panel, which is right now yours is 342 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:42,799 on the other side of the wall. 343 00:17:43,519 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: Is the EGC is. 344 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,759 Speaker 1: Let's say it's a six gage copper, okay, for two 345 00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:47,279 hundred adamp. 346 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:47,799 Speaker 2: Okay. 347 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: Now, let's say that you do have a grinding electro 348 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,880 conductor and it's a water pipe that goes a four. 349 00:17:54,279 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: Okay. 350 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: So let's say the GEC to the water pipe is 351 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,839 a four gauge due to your supply conductor's two OT 352 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:01,839 or three hot copper. 353 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:07,519 Speaker 2: Okay, then you're screwed. Why because the. 354 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,319 Speaker 1: EGC was only a six gauge and the GEC that's 355 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,160 running to the water pipe has to be a four. 356 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: You get me. 357 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,319 Speaker 1: Now, if it was the other way around, where it 358 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,759 was a four for the EGC and the GEC only 359 00:18:20,759 --> 00:18:22,680 had it to be a six, then it would be 360 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,839 equal to or greater. So you'd be okay, and you 361 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,319 could argue your point to the AHJ. You could say, look, 362 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,440 I want to argue this point, and I want to 363 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,920 bring up this reference and try to make an argument there. 364 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:40,519 Speaker 2: But again the old saying is you either move it 365 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:41,319 or you prove it. 366 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:44,319 Speaker 1: And you'd have to sit with the HJ and explain 367 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:47,039 what the application in is two fifty out one twenty 368 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:48,759 one if you're in the twenty twenty code earlier, and 369 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:51,119 if you're in the twenty twenty three, it's two fifty 370 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,839 out one eighteen B and it's there for a reason. 371 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: And you look at the exception. 372 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,039 Speaker 1: And see if you can't create a plausible argument that 373 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:03,640 they may accept. 374 00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying. 375 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,039 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So that is, you know, the only 376 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,640 argument that we would have now, the only additional argument 377 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,000 that we could make for somebody. Somebody could make is 378 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,880 it Well, aren't you now at this point splicing the 379 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,279 GEC and did in the code say that it had 380 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:27,160 to be irreversible or CAD welding. Yes, So that's probably 381 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,079 the next logical thing that you're going to have to 382 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,640 face is say, well, what can I do and how 383 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,440 do I make this connection. I'm gonna make it whether 384 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:38,240 I you know, cad weld it, I'm kind of kind 385 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,680 of hard to do. If it's in the panel already, 386 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,839 that's gonna be kind of hard to do, or I 387 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,720 do a irreversible crimp type of scenario. You're gonna have 388 00:19:46,759 --> 00:19:49,519 to work those things through your UH, through your HJ. 389 00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:52,720 You just are because if that is your grinning up. 390 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:55,839 But again, I would also qualify whether or not that 391 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,839 water pipe. If it's an old house, here is a 392 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,640 possibility that they've changed it outside to plumbing. 393 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: Is the is the PVC? It's good. 394 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: There's a high probability that that's just if the whole 395 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,799 house is metal piping that that's just the bonding component, right, 396 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,160 and those type of things, and so you're just bonding. 397 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:17,839 H So, yeah, there's other rules that you can look at, 398 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,240 but that's where i'd start the journey and see how 399 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,200 that works and have a discussion with your HJA see 400 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,559 if they can you can have a meeting of the minds, 401 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:26,039 see if. 402 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: That works for you. All right, folks, that's it. That's 403 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,039 about twenty minutes today. 404 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: That's all I really wanted to get in our podcast 405 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:33,039 for today. 406 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: Hopefully you got something out of it. 407 00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:36,599 Speaker 1: Again, as always, if you want to ask us questions 408 00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:38,200 and get my take on something, and if I don't 409 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,200 get it on the first take, remember you can always 410 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,640 contact me back and ask me follow up questions. Just 411 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,200 make sure you let me know what episode it is, 412 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,160 give me a brief summary of what I talked about. 413 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,160 That way, I don't have to go back and listen 414 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,119 to the entire podcast again. I don't like going backwards. 415 00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:55,039 I like going forward. And I've done over a thousand podcasts. 416 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,960 I can't remember everything that I've talked about. Okay, I 417 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,680 got add I always like to keep moving forward. All right, folks, 418 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,279 Until next time, Stay safe, God bless him. We'll catch 419 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:29,039 you on another episode of Let's Ask Paul B.