Speaker 1: S.
Speaker 2: What up? Everybody?
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul. My name
is Paul Laven after your hosts, and as always, I
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Speaker 2: Don't work. It's not any bloatwear.
Speaker 1: It's just a link to our web based mobile app
because I change it all the time. I had calculators,
I had the ability to chat on there, upload pictures,
we have blogs on there. You can get the fast
Tracks tube on there. You got calculators, You've got all
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you anything.
Speaker 2: It's free, all right, all right, welcome to Let's Ask Paul.
Speaker 1: And today's question was submitted and I will you know,
kind of tell you just you know already I have
answered this question for the gentleman. So he's already gotten
the email because I felt this was one that I
could answer while I was on the fly.
Speaker 2: I think I was traveling or doing something.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I answered it and he already got his answer,
but Darlene had pinned it because it's still a good
question because it digs into a question of tapping feeders
and can you have more than feeders in a system?
And you know, whereas you have a feeder feeding a
panel with another feeder, and so again, it was a
great question for us to elaborate on. So I want
to go to it right now. That will submitted and
it says it says, Hi, Paul, I've been catching some
of your coffee hours as I'm getting ready to head
out to work.
Speaker 2: Thanks for doing that.
Speaker 1: I know you went over feeder taps, but I don't
have the time to see the whole hour plus.
Speaker 2: Boy, what are you trying to say? Bro?
Speaker 1: Are you trying to say that I'm long winded? I
know that's what you're saying, But it's okay. I can
accept that I am long winded. Sometimes I'm obnoxious. Sometimes
I'm just not worthy of people wanting to listen to me.
Speaker 2: It's okay. I don't get I don't worry about that
type of thing. I'm here to teach. I move on, positive,
move forward. Okay.
Speaker 1: So you're asking about feeder taps. Okay, all right, so
feeder taps. So let's get into that and we will
go to the rest of your question.
Speaker 2: Okay. So the question goes on to.
Speaker 1: Say it says, if we look at the definition of
feeder and the definition of branch circuit, I feel there's
a gap between them.
Speaker 2: Maybe.
Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm gonna show you that there's not a gap,
but I get your feeling.
Speaker 2: It says the wire the wire.
Speaker 1: We wire large residences and always have a feeder to
a subpanel or remote distribution panel or a remote load center.
However it makes you feel better. Uh, then the feed
then they feed another subpanel, load center, remote distribution panel,
whatever from the first subpanel, load center distributing. You know,
if I don't say all of those, I always got
somebody that'll post something in a comment somewhere.
Speaker 2: Those are load center's poll or those are whatever, And
I'm like, dude, what do you do every day? Get
a life?
Speaker 1: Okay, it's you know, I remember years ago, a little story.
I remember years ago when people were using a term
subpanel in this guy I was jumping all over people.
It was pretty well known educator. I don't know where
he is today. He's not one of the big what
we call the big three is which I tell you
what I say, big three, I mean, I mean Ryan Jackson,
Mike Holton, myself. I consider us the Big three. Again,
you could say, Paul, you're very conceited. I don't care.
I think volume, in the number of listeners and the
stuff that we put out, I think those that's the
Big Three. You like it or not, That's just the
way I feel about it. Okay, are there other educators
out there? Absolutely, but the Big three that's what we
think about. Okay, all right, anyway, I'll get some hate.
I'll get some hate meal for that chit too. I'm
just saying, all right, so anyway it is Key goes
on to say, the wire between the two panels doesn't
fit the definition of a feeder or a branch circuit.
I'd like to know what it is. Is it a feeder?
Could we use the feeder tap rules on it? Bottom line,
I'd like to use rules on the wires between the
two panels. Can we and thinks okay, great question.
Speaker 2: I appreciate the question.
Speaker 1: So in understanding this question, we have to realize what
does the code say.
Speaker 2: A feeder is? What is a feeder?
Speaker 1: So if we go look at the article one hundred
under feeder, it says quote all circuit conductors between the
service equipment, the source of separate drive system or other
power supply source, and the final branch circuit overcurrent device.
Speaker 2: Folks.
Speaker 1: So it is the feeder lies somewhere between the service
and what the branch circuit overcurrent protected device. That might
be two panels down, but that's where it is. So
if I go from the service panel and I put
a breaker in there, and I'm going to feed a
panel that's in my basement, that's a feeder because that's
feeding another panel that has other overcurrent protected devices that are.
Speaker 2: In it for the brand circuits. Feeder.
Speaker 1: Now, if I feed that panel with a feeder, and
now I'm in that second panel and I put another
two pole breaker in there, and I want to feed
another panel which I can that will have overcurrent protected
devices in it that are protecting brand circuits out of
that panel downstream, then it is still a feeder because
it's taking place between the service equipment and whatever the
final overcurrent protection be. And it just so happens that
you weren't done when you went from the main service
to that panel. Then you fed another panel where you
ultimately will have the final overcurrent protected device that feeds whatever.
Speaker 2: Less say, receptacle circuit. Those are all feeders. Can I
apply the tap rules to those? Absolutely? I can.
Speaker 1: If it is feeder, it's that conductor that is between
the service equipment and whatever the final overcurrent protective device is.
Speaker 2: So I can have a.
Speaker 1: Panel feeding another panel, feeding another panel feeding another panel.
Those are feeders. You get me, Okay, So that's kind
of one of those things. Now we know we can't
tap a tap. So if you're talking about tap rules
two forty twenty one B and you're applying these tap
rules to a feeder, just remember the whole concept of
a feeder tap is to be able to tap one
to conductor where typically the conductor would be less than
the size of the conductor you're tapping, right, and the
overcurrent device is protecting the feeder, but it may be
too large to traditionally protect the tap conductor that's tapping
onto the feeder unless you follow the rules into forty
dot twenty one B.
Speaker 2: Then you're going to see that.
Speaker 1: You know, in some cases, if you look at it,
you're like, okay, you know what it's it's okay, it's
still protected, and it's protected by the what the feeders
disconnect the feeders over current protection.
Speaker 2: So again following those that's why we have tap rules.
Speaker 1: So it may sound unorthodox, but the conductors are literally protected.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So we can't now take a tap and tap a tap,
can't do that, but we certainly can tap feeders as
long as we follow all the rules.
Speaker 2: Within the National Electrical Code. Okay.
Speaker 1: So hopefully that answered your question again for anybody out
there again that that's wondering what we're talking about. Again,
it's service equipment supplying a remote panel that's in your basement,
let's say, and then later you go a, hey, I
want to go from there out to my garage from
that panel, okay, as I breaker space left in that one,
but I don't. And they're assuming everything sized, okay, and
what not. Assuming you've you've done your low caalcus and
you know what you're dealing with, and you've sized everything accordingly, uh,
and you've thought about future expansion and how you want
to do this, that's okay. Then I can go from
that panel to another panel somewhere else and it's still
a feeder and you can still apply the tap rules
if you want.
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you really want to look at the definition
of feeder, which is by the way, you know, when
you look at it, it's one of those things where
you're like, it makes sense only after you read it
and you go, okay, it makes sense, you know what
I'm saying. All right, So anyway, hopefully that answers your
question that you submitted, and I'm glad we could answer
it for you on this episode of Let's Ask Paul.
Let's see if we have any other questions we want
to answer in today's episode. Okay, so let's see, we
got time for another one. Let's go on to this one.
So this one's submitted and it's been been pinned by Jeff,
and I have answered this one again full disclosure, I
have already answered the individual. But again he's marked it
because he thinks that many people can learn from this one.
So I will use it as a podcast on today.
All right, it says good. More So, I have a
question I was doing a service upgrade, and the existing
grounding electrode was already landed in the old panel that
was back to back with the old service. Okay, says
I drove two new ground rods and separated the neutrals
in the old panels. Is now it's a remote distribution panel. Okay,
But do I have to run the bear from the
water pipe again to reach the outside new service or
is there any rule or exception that can that can
stay in the old existing panel that is back to
back with the new service.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your knowledge. Okay.
Speaker 1: So I've already responded to this one, and let's go
through the concept here of what we're saying here. So
let me paint you this mental picture. So this gentleman
is doing a service change. It was the outside, let's
say it was the meter, and inside was the original
old panel. He's been called to come and do a
service change. Now he's got to bring it up. The
code he wants to put an emergency disconnect outside. Sounds
like that's also going to be his service disconnect as well,
So he moves that outside. So now the old panel
that was inside now becomes his remote distribution panel. So
obviously he's changed to all the conductors and now has
four conductors coming in that type of thing because the
service disconnect is outside.
Speaker 2: Based on what he's kind of explained, so his question
is about the water pipe.
Speaker 1: If that is truly an electrode, then it's terminated now
in the remote distribution panel or the load center subpanel,
however you want to flavor it.
Speaker 2: And he's saying, wait a minute, am I.
Speaker 1: Screwed at this point because now out at the panel
outside where my service is, I put in my two
ground rods.
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's the first thing that we have to
think of.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, the NEC is still going to demand that
GEC be connected GC, by the way, is grounding electro
conductor in this case to the water pipe. It's still
going to be required that that get connected to the
ground a conductor at the service.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So that is the first part. So we can't get
rid of that rule first. So it's got to make
that connection. Now we'll look at some options here that
may or may not have, but that's the first rule.
Gcs have to be connected. You find all that in
two fifty twenty four. Okay, there right now, one of
the things that I will tell this individual, is that
just because you had the old building had a connection
to a water pipe ground electrode, was it actually a
waterpipe electrode? Did it meet the requirements at twifty fifty
two A one? Was it ten feet in contact with
the earth? Did it qualifies electrode? I know they went
to the water pipe. Did they do it within five
foot of entry? Did they do all those things that
would make it smell like a water pipe electrode and
all that type of stuff. And you're saying, well, I
don't know. Okay, Well, if they made a connection to
the water pipe in the building and it wasn't at
five foot of near's point of entry, and they made
it somewhere else, then one of the questions is it's
possible that they're just bonding the water pipes, right, and
so they may be just bonding them.
Speaker 2: If that's the case, they're just following bonding rules.
Speaker 1: You're required to bond the metal water piping system if
that's what you have. You know, obviously people today are
using pecks and all those other kind of non metallic
products and you know, don't bond the waterline. But there's
a difference between is there a water pipe electrode, and
so you have to qualify that first. So if it is,
then you're saying, okay, what can I do? What options
may I be able to talk my or have a
discussion with the AHJ Okay, Well, the easiest thing that
I would tell you is just move that connection out
to the outside service and connected to the ground and
conductor out there. That's the easiest solution to just just
move it. You might be saying, well it's not long enough. Well,
you can irreversible crumpet, you can cad weld it, you know,
to extend it. There's options there. If you have a
crimp set that's irreversible, probably the easiest option. But there
are the things we need to look at here. Okay,
So now you didn't say what code cycle.
Speaker 2: You are in.
Speaker 1: Now don't believe you said what code edition you're in?
So kind of interesting topic here.
Speaker 2: So in the.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty edition, in earlier there was this allowance okay,
and I'm going to use this very loosely. This was
what's two fifty one allowance, And this was an allowance
where you could use an equipment grounding conductor as also
the grounding electrode conductor, which we have done in PV
applications for years. There is a provision in there in
the twenty twenty and earlier under two fifty one twenty
one that says, you know what, here's an exception that's
going to say, you know what, I'll let you use
the equipment ground and conductor also as the GC under
the strict rules.
Speaker 2: Under this exception means that.
Speaker 1: The sizing of that GC and the sizing of that
equipment ground and conductor have to be adequate for whatever
purpose they're being used for.
Speaker 2: And if you're going to be using it also to
use it as.
Speaker 1: An equipment ground and conductor as a GEC, then that
equipment ground has to be the same size or larger
than what it would be required for GEC. You get
what I'm saying, and vice versa same thing. If you're sizing,
you're using the EGC and you're extending the GZ, it
has to be at least the size that the GEC
would be.
Speaker 2: Required under that exception. Okay, so.
Speaker 1: People are saying in the twenty twenty three Paul, I
don't see that. That's because it was moved. It's now
under two fifty one eighteen B so it was just moved.
So the exception is still there. And the exception is
is one of those things that you're going to really
have to sit with your AHJ and you're going to
have to really communicate what you're doing here under your
unique situation.
Speaker 2: Okay, because it still has to be sized, right if
you make the argument and say, okay, look, say.
Speaker 1: That the GEC is connected to the EGC if the
EGC happens to be sized properly, so you can take
a two a wg copper let's say, as a GEC
to the water pipe ge to the electrode and so so,
in other words, you can't take a two gauge copper
and connected to the water pipe ground and then connect
it to.
Speaker 2: A four size four EGC.
Speaker 1: So the GEC, if it was required to be a
two and you bring it up into the panel, you
can't connect it to let's say the equipment ground supplying
that panel was only.
Speaker 2: A four gage.
Speaker 1: You can't do that, okay, because again the EGC is
smaller than the GEC's all these damn acronyms, and we're
slowly getting rid of these things in the code. And
if you're not familiar with the GEC is a ground
electrode conductor that goes from the ground conductor down to
the electrode itself.
Speaker 2: And then the that's the GEC. And then the EGC
is just an.
Speaker 1: Equipment grounding conductor which also serves as an equipment bonding
in doctor. Everybody would like to get that verbage changed,
but it serves the same function in many cases, so.
Speaker 2: You have some allowances. Okay, Now we have to look
at it.
Speaker 1: So let's just throw it in a scenario where I
mean the what if scenario, because it's there for a reason.
Speaker 2: What if you have a two hundred AMP.
Speaker 1: Service and you're installing a feeder Okay, and now it's
going to be a two hundred A remote distribution inside,
so service outside you continue it on uh, and it's
going to be UH inside.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, let's assume that the EGC for that two panel
to that feeder panel, which is right now yours is
on the other side of the wall.
Speaker 2: Is the EGC is.
Speaker 1: Let's say it's a six gage copper, okay, for two
hundred adamp.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, let's say that you do have a grinding electro
conductor and it's a water pipe that goes a four.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So let's say the GEC to the water pipe is
a four gauge due to your supply conductor's two OT
or three hot copper.
Speaker 2: Okay, then you're screwed. Why because the.
Speaker 1: EGC was only a six gauge and the GEC that's
running to the water pipe has to be a four.
Speaker 2: You get me.
Speaker 1: Now, if it was the other way around, where it
was a four for the EGC and the GEC only
had it to be a six, then it would be
equal to or greater. So you'd be okay, and you
could argue your point to the AHJ. You could say, look,
I want to argue this point, and I want to
bring up this reference and try to make an argument there.
Speaker 2: But again the old saying is you either move it
or you prove it.
Speaker 1: And you'd have to sit with the HJ and explain
what the application in is two fifty out one twenty
one if you're in the twenty twenty code earlier, and
if you're in the twenty twenty three, it's two fifty
out one eighteen B and it's there for a reason.
Speaker 2: And you look at the exception.
Speaker 1: And see if you can't create a plausible argument that
they may accept.
Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So that is, you know, the only
argument that we would have now, the only additional argument
that we could make for somebody. Somebody could make is
it Well, aren't you now at this point splicing the
GEC and did in the code say that it had
to be irreversible or CAD welding. Yes, So that's probably
the next logical thing that you're going to have to
face is say, well, what can I do and how
do I make this connection. I'm gonna make it whether
I you know, cad weld it, I'm kind of kind
of hard to do. If it's in the panel already,
that's gonna be kind of hard to do, or I
do a irreversible crimp type of scenario. You're gonna have
to work those things through your UH, through your HJ.
You just are because if that is your grinning up.
But again, I would also qualify whether or not that
water pipe. If it's an old house, here is a
possibility that they've changed it outside to plumbing.
Speaker 2: Is the is the PVC? It's good.
Speaker 1: There's a high probability that that's just if the whole
house is metal piping that that's just the bonding component, right,
and those type of things, and so you're just bonding.
H So, yeah, there's other rules that you can look at,
but that's where i'd start the journey and see how
that works and have a discussion with your HJA see
if they can you can have a meeting of the minds,
see if.
Speaker 2: That works for you. All right, folks, that's it. That's
about twenty minutes today.
Speaker 1: That's all I really wanted to get in our podcast
for today.
Speaker 2: Hopefully you got something out of it.
Speaker 1: Again, as always, if you want to ask us questions
and get my take on something, and if I don't
get it on the first take, remember you can always
contact me back and ask me follow up questions. Just
make sure you let me know what episode it is,
give me a brief summary of what I talked about.
That way, I don't have to go back and listen
to the entire podcast again. I don't like going backwards.
I like going forward. And I've done over a thousand podcasts.
I can't remember everything that I've talked about. Okay, I
got add I always like to keep moving forward. All right, folks,
Until next time, Stay safe, God bless him. We'll catch
you on another episode of Let's Ask Paul B.