Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am
now trying to use my experience as the brother of
a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime.
I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Billy.
Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.
Speaker 6: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome to July everybody.
It is July second, hot and humid here, and the
story of the week so far has been the late
breaking news on Monday, June thirtieth that Brian Cooberger, the
suspect in the twenty twenty two Idaho for a murder case,
agreed to plead guilty to the brutal stabbing death of Xenachernadel, Kayleygan,
colbez Ethan Chapin, and Madison Mogan.
Speaker 3: I think you were the person that broke the news,
which is not the first time that's happened. And then
of course I jumped online as we always do, and
started to see stories come through, particularly on x slash,
Twitter threads and other places where you go when you
just want to quick grab in terms of what's going on,
and then typically those links will lead you to longer stories.
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a surprise.
Speaker 3: Even what we've learned over the last forty eight hours
is also a bit surprising because the whole thing seems
to have happened so fast.
Speaker 6: It definitely seemed that way, and so for that reason,
we wanted to break down what we know so far
of the plea deal. I watched the live stream of
the plea here earlier this afternoon, just a couple of
hours ago. I have information about that to share as well,
And we also wanted to share our perspectives as people
who have intimate insider knowledge of the criminal justice system.
And of course, because Bill is the brother of a
murder victim, he's got I think, probably greater insight than
I do certainly about what this process must be like
for a family member. So Bill will look forward to
your insights and color commentary.
Speaker 4: As we always call it. Let's start with the plea deal.
Speaker 6: I'm going to go ahead and quote from a couple
of different sources here, mainly CBS News in New York Times,
since they had the most to offer. According to reporting
from Jordan Freeman and Brian Dax of CBS News, Ben Mogan,
Mattie's father, shared the letter from the court advising the
families that Coburger's attorneys had asked for a plea deal.
Speaker 4: Quote.
Speaker 6: The letter stated that Coburger agreed to plead guilty to
all counts against him, and that he would be sentenced
to you for a consecutive that means back to back
life sentences on the flour murder counts, and would waive
all rights to appeal. There would be no possibility of
parole for Coburger, which means he will spend the rest
of his life behind bars based on that plead deal
right there, what do you think?
Speaker 3: First of all, remember, prior to this point, the death
penalty was on the table. Idaho does have the death penalty. Ironically,
they have the death penalty, and the execution part is
actually by firing squad, which strikes me as kayek. But
that was very much on the table if Coberger had
been found guilty. And although I think law enforcement did
an outstanding job with this investigation, there's always the possibility
that something can go wrong. It only takes one surer
to express doubt and lock into a position that can
result in a hung jury. We've seen any number of
cases where we were absolutely convinced of an individual's guilt
and yet the person walked. So you can't say, and
I've seen a lot of people on social media saying
Cobra is guilty. I strongly believe that he is as well.
Until it's proven in a court of law, you cannot
say that he's going to face the death penalty or
he's going to spend the rest of his life in
jail without possibility of parole. I was very surprised, particularly
since they were already moving into trial prep, getting ready
for an August trial, which was expected to last about
three weeks in mid August. That surprised me because I
would have thought if there were plea offers proffered, as
they put it, I would have thought this would have
happened months ago.
Speaker 2: It hadn't happens.
Speaker 3: Therefore, I thought that was off the table and that
they were moving forward with the death penalty case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we don't really know the reason and why
the plea deal came up now, but I'm going to
make an educated guest, just based on the things that
have happened recently in the case, my assumption, and I'm
willing to be proven wrong on this because again I
haven't been following the case as closely as I am currently.
Speaker 4: Definitely.
Speaker 6: Last week, Judge Stephen Hipler denied a motion by Coburger's lawyers,
who were seeking to argue that four alternate perpetrators could
have committed the murders.
Speaker 4: They were going with it. He didn't do it.
Speaker 6: It was potentially four other people. You're shaking your head.
Speaker 3: For the benefit of our listeners. I am seriously rolling
my eyes. There was a lot of evidence. Now, nothing
is a slam dunk, as I said in a court
of law, the idea that there were four alternate.
Speaker 2: Killers, I'm sorry, this is ludicrous.
Speaker 3: Unless they were able to prove this beyond a shadow
of a doubt. Coburger was going to go down for
this thing. So I don't know if it's that the
realization suddenly began to sync in with his defense team
that this was going nowhere. But they're the ones that
reached out to the prosecution and they asked the prosecution
if an offer was on the table or could be proffered.
Speaker 2: As they say, I.
Speaker 4: Think it has a lot to do with that.
Speaker 6: When they brought up this alternate perpetrator's theory, the judge
called it quote rank speculation and said, nothing links these
individuals to the homicide.
Speaker 4: So I'm guessing that his lawyers had.
Speaker 6: Reached a point where they realized there isn't anything we
can mount here in terms of the defense. They had
sought prior to this to exclude the touch DNA from
Coburger that was found on the sheath of the k
bar knife. They sought to take the death penalty off
the table. Both of those motions were denied. They wanted
to enter an official alibi for Coburger, and the judge
was like, no, you can't do that because no one
can vouch for where you were during the time of
the killings, and his lawyers were like, he was driving
around by himself that night, that's not an alibi.
Speaker 4: You can't be your own alibi. Someone else has to
have seen you.
Speaker 6: So I feel like at this point all of these
things had happened very recently. I'm wondering if his defense
team was just like, hell, we got nothing left.
Speaker 2: And what's ludicrous about this alibi?
Speaker 3: Where Coberger's supposed to be driving around by himself at night.
Speaker 2: So much of the location of the car.
Speaker 3: Over the weeks leading up to the murder was the
white Alantra showing up on security footage at various homes
and businesses, and they say that he drove by the
site where the murders later took place as many as
a dozen times. Where's the I'll use alibi video of
him driving the car that would place him elsewhere at
the time of the murders, the actual night of the murders.
It just doesn't wash the whole thing over them and
months we've been following this case, so much of the
defense just seemed to smack a desperation. And although not
everything was revealed, and obviously it would have been a
very interesting trial had it gone to trial, I would
have been very interested in hearing all of the evidence
that the Moscow Police Department, Idaho State Police, and FBI
and other agencies work together to build and I think
they would have built an incredibly strong case. I'm hoping,
actually over time that more will come out because I've
seen a list and some of it's hearing your notes
about sources of evidence that allowed them to build such
a strong case against Coburger. I was real surprised just
by the fact that this had been allowed to stretch
on for so long, because this was looking like a
very strong case to me months ago.
Speaker 6: And we'll definitely get into sort of the timing on
all of this, because it does sound like the timing
on this deal was very tight, and the judge even
acknowledged it earlier today at the plea hearing. But before
we get there, I want to provide some more context here.
What happened is the families of the victims were all
sent a letter from the Moscow prosecuting Attorney, Bill Thompson,
and it outlined the terms of the plea. Ben Mogen Matty,
Mogan's father, shared a portion of.
Speaker 4: That letter with various news outlets.
Speaker 6: So I'm going to read just a portion of it,
because I haven't seen the whole thing yet. But here
is a portion of that letter from prosecuting Attorney Bill
Thompson outlining the terms of the plea quote, we cannot
fathom the toll that this case has taken on your family.
This resolution is our sincere attempt to seek justice for
your family. This agreement ensures that the defendant will be convicted,
we'll spend the rest of his life in prison and
will not be able to put you and the other
families through the uncertainty of decades of post conviction appeals.
Your viewpoints weigh heavily in our decision making process, and
we hope that you may come to appreciate why we
believe this resolution is in the best interest of justice.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 3: I think that families are split. As I understand it,
two of the families have expressed great disappointment and they're
profound unhappiness with how this plea deal has come about.
Speaker 2: It's really important to note there are also two.
Speaker 3: Other families and they're all part of this, that actually
have expressed support.
Speaker 2: For this plea deal.
Speaker 3: And we're not necessarily seeking the death penalty from my
friends that are death penalty supporters, and that includes members
of the Colonial Parkway murders families. We've talked about this
a number of times. Should the Colonial Parkway murders, additional
suspects ever be identified, and we hope that they will,
some of them are still alive, is what is our understanding,
So the death penalty would be on the table in
a case like the Colonial Parkway murders. I personally am
not a supporter of the death penalty. Members of my
family are not supporters of the death penalty. Other Colonial
Parkway Murders family members are, and I completely get it
and much in the same way watching members of the
Idaho four families speak out, some for the death penalty,
some strongly opposed.
Speaker 2: They're all valid. But my reminder for my friends that.
Speaker 3: Support the death penalty is if you've ever taken a
look at death penalty cases, and we have often drag
on four years. So if Brian Coberger were found guilty
later on this summer, please understand it's not like they're
going to find him guilty and march him out back
and have him shot by our firing squad. He would
have been in jail four years. As as the appeals
drag on. Many people who are on death row in
various states around the country have been there for years,
sometimes even decades. It's not that much different than life
without parole.
Speaker 6: I was doing some reading on this topic, and there
is someone in Idaho right now who has been on
death row and awaiting execution for forty years. The state
got their chance last year. They botched it. They botched
the execution.
Speaker 4: And now it's back again into the legal system. What
are we going to do with this guy? When are
we gonna do we have another hearing that we need
to do. When are we gonna It really.
Speaker 6: Does not end because the state does not take state
sanctioned murder, which is what the death penalty goes lately,
nor should it.
Speaker 3: I do get the views of the families that would
like to see Coberger put to death for killing four
beautiful young people for what still has never been explained,
and I'm not sure even I've said this about the
Colonial Parkway murders. We may find out the why someday,
much in the same way. I know members of the
families in the Idaho four case are saying, we want
to know why. But as I've said before, I'm not
sure the why is ever going to be a satisfactory answer.
We're talking about an inherently illogical and evil act. We
haven't even found, to my knowledge, a connection between Coburger
and the four victims. I don't know that he knows
Sanna or Kaylee, Ethan or Madison.
Speaker 2: Did he ever interact with them?
Speaker 3: Did he did they catch his eye working at the
vegetarian restaurant?
Speaker 2: Who knows?
Speaker 3: There doesn't seem to be any close personal or working
relationship with these four college students there are at different
universities in two different states. They may be only fifteen
or so minutes apart. But we don't even know that
his why would ever make any sense to a rational
human being.
Speaker 6: And I think that the emotional drivers behind this. Anybody
who's ever gone through a sudden, terrible loss understands the
turmoil that you go through. It's unbearable. Everyone is on
a continuum of how they deal with it. I was
talking to Joyce Call earlier today and we were talking
about how various members of her family have dealt with
this process and this loss. She says, every single one
of her siblings is different and at various times where
she is on her own.
Speaker 4: Journey has varied for her.
Speaker 6: This isn't something that you can process in two years,
three years, four years, and in your case, I'm sure
that it's been thirty nine years and you probably still
have an fully reached the full spectrum of emotions. Here
we were saying off air, if it turns out that
there is somebody responsible for the Colonial Parkway murders who
is still alive and they're able to be brought to justice,
would you want to flick the switch? And I know
you had said you reserve the right to change your
mind on whether you would or wouldn't, And I don't
blame you.
Speaker 4: I don't blame you a bit.
Speaker 3: But yet other family members I won't name names here
because it wouldn't be appropriate, But we've talked a lot
about this, and remember we've been through this long investigative process,
and now we have a new team at the FBI.
That's a whole nother conversation where the family.
Speaker 4: It's a whole other episode.
Speaker 3: The families are incredibly frustrated. We'll get into that in
a future episode of Mind Over Murder. There are family
members who've looked me in the eye and said, I
will happily flip the switch myself to put these people
to death. I'm not that person, but I completely back
then have great admiration for the other Colonial Parkway murders
family members. More than one person has said this to me,
they would be willing to flip the switch themselves on
the electric chair or the gas chamber or whatever it
is that Virginia has come up with too humanely. I'm
putting quotes around that fort a prisoner to death. It's
a horrific process, and it's daunting to think that when
note the optimism the Colonial Parkray murders are solved and
additional suspects are named and case is more fully adjudicated,
I think only at the other end of that process,
which could be years more, will we have a full
understanding of what this whole process of the justice system
is about. I can tell you from the family's perspective
and from my personal point of view, what I've seen
so far has been really bad, and I feel like
the families in the Colonial Parkray murders are feeling terribly disrespected,
but also just watching the families in the Idaho case,
they feel the same way, and one of their biggest
concerns seemed to be how little notice was given of
the plea arrangement.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that is actually something that was brought up
at the plea hearing today, and so I'll get into
that in a couple of minutes. But I can definitely
see where if you're looking at this from the perspective
of somebody who's just been tossed into it, because let's
be real about it, until you were in the middle
of dealing with a major tragedy on this level where
you've had to deal with the criminal justice system, most
of us don't know how the process works. It's not
like when you join the club that nobody wants to join.
It's not like you have a handbook how to here's
a victim's advocate, and here's a media consultant. Let's talk
about the best way to deal with this in the media.
You guys are just tossed in one hundred percent un
prepared and in some cases floundering. This has got to
just be an absolutely awful process. I hope I'm not
speaking out of turn for you there, but it looks
like it must be just almost incomprehensible at times.
Speaker 3: It is, And I don't know necessarily that I know
how to fix it. I know that at some point
these are things I want to put down on paper.
I think there are improvements that can be made to
this process. And again, we haven't even been through the
whole court system. This is still thirty eight going on
thirty nine years now in the investigative stages. Let's talk
a little bit about the family perspective in the Idaho case.
How were the various families responding in terms of what
they've said publicly?
Speaker 4: Good question.
Speaker 6: The idea behind the plea deal is to save the
families from a protracted and painful trial, but of course
not all of the families do want that outcome. So
of the four families, the Chapins and the Mogans have
indicated their approval of the plea deal. I'm going to
get into each of their separate responses here a second,
and the gun Calls family and the Carnadal family have
indicated their displeasure at the thing.
Speaker 4: Because there is.
Speaker 6: So much to talk about with regards to the gun
Calves family and the Carnadal family, I'm going to start
with the Chapins and the Mogans, largely because they have
not had as much to say in the media. So
the families of Ethan Chapin and Mattimogen seem to be
happy with the plea deal. Mattie's father, Ben spoke to
The New York Times and he talked about how the
case had been tormenting him and his family. He said
they wanted to heal and they were dreading a trial.
He said, it's been a nightmare that's approaching in our heads.
Now we can actually put this behind us and not
have these future dates and future things that we don't want.
Speaker 4: To be at that we shouldn't have to be at,
that have to do with this terror.
Speaker 6: Now we get to just think about the rest of
our lives and have to try and figure out how
to do it without Maddie and without the rest of
these kids.
Speaker 4: End quote.
Speaker 3: It's very thoughtful, and you can see his pain and
their anticipation of how dreadful they were afraid the trial
would be. It's a very understandable response from one father.
Speaker 6: And prior to that quote that I pulled from the
New York Times article, he was talking about the fact
that one of the discussions he was having with the
prosecution as they were talking about trial prep before the
plea deal came up, was they were mentioning to what
extent it would be appropriate for the families to leave
the courtroom during certain painful moments of testimony. And they'd
been telling him that you're going to have to show
crime scene photos and it's going to be wrenching and
wretch it. There has not been a lot written about
the actual crime scene at eleven twenty two Kings Road,
but I mean, there was a photo put out that
showed blood dripping down the outside of the house from
one of the bedrooms.
Speaker 4: We have to assume it was a terrible scene. You
wouldn't want to see that.
Speaker 6: But imagine being a father, or a mother or a
sibling of that and knowing we're about to have this
trial and we're going to end up seeing these photos,
or we're going to be stepping out in the hallway
because we don't want to see these photos.
Speaker 4: But either way they're going to get out there.
Speaker 6: I can't imagine the kind of horror that would be
for a family.
Speaker 4: No that's coming.
Speaker 3: We've seen the leaked crime scene photos and the Colonial
Parkway murders, and they are horrific. I'm sorry I ended
up seeing them. That was due to an FBI leak
of those photos, which is how I ended up seeing them,
but I don't want to see them again, and I
would certainly be headed for the door if and when
we go to trial and individuals beyond Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
now deceased, are being charged, I would want.
Speaker 2: To be sitting at the end of the row so
that I could slip out if that.
Speaker 3: Was what was being shown, and hopefully someone would give
me the heads up that we're done showing photographs for now.
I completely understand it and the dread that Maddie's father
is trying to convey. It's more than understandable how the
Mogan family would feel that way.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at mindover Murder.
Speaker 6: The Shapin family has really made an effort not to
talk to the media about their feelings about the potential
trial about the plate. They are very focused on their
foundation that they created in their son's name, Ethan Smile,
which offers college scholarships or students from the Skaggot Valley,
which is where they were from. So the Chapins have
put a lot of their time and energy in the
press into discs using the things that they have done
should movie things memory forward. But they have not chosen
to spoke to the media with regard to the upcoming trial,
which of course now will not happen, or the plea themselves.
The only thing that they did indicate was that they
would be in court in Boise today, which they were
in support of the plea deal. But anything else they've
kept it largely under wraps, which again I think I
can also understand.
Speaker 4: I know, Bill that you are probably the most media.
Speaker 6: Savvy out of any of the Colonial Parkway murders family members.
I can understand wanting to keep some of that stuff
under wraps and held back. This is not the easiest
thing to talk about.
Speaker 3: No, and none of us like the idea of melting
down in front of the media. I know sometimes when
I've done interviews and other family members have expressed this
as well. We all have our hot button issues, the
ones that bring the emotion bubbling up to the surface.
For me, it's mostly about the impact that losing my
sister Kathy had on my parents and the rest of
my family. We've talked about this here at Mind of
a Murder and elsewhere it's incredibly difficult because there's such
heightened emotion, and then you've got cameras and microphones and
things being thrust at you, so it's really difficult to
keep it together and not choke up. Here's two families
and the Chapin family, and again it's completely understandable they
want to support the plea deal, but they're not going
to talk to the press and they don't have to,
and they shouldn't have to. This is one area where
I think the press fails us sometimes. I hope that,
for instance, the Chapin families asked to be let alone.
Speaker 2: I hope media people, reporters, etc.
Speaker 3: Will respect that and not be calling them at home
for weeks or months looking for public statements.
Speaker 2: If they don't want to say anything, just let them be.
Speaker 6: And one of the things that I have learned working
with you and the other Colonial Parkway murders families, and
we actually realized last week that we've been working together
ten years.
Speaker 4: On this case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: I don't even know how that happened.
Speaker 6: But the one thing that I have learned is that
all of the families in this case, they all have
separate preferences for dealing with the media preferences for what
they want to talk about and what they don't, and
that's something that I think a lot of people in
the true crime space who want to consume content, I
think they don't understand that every family is different in
that regard, and not every family wants a documentary or
lots of interviews. Not a lot of family members necessarily
want to be on podcasts and putting things out there.
I think that it's really important for people who are
consuming true crime to remember that everybody comes at this
from a different angle, and everybody is going to experience
it differently.
Speaker 3: Used that expression you're mileage may vary. One of the
things I've seen with the Colonial Park Me murders, too,
is that over time, family members have stepped in to
the fray and stepped back. I remember one family member
saying to me, Bill, I can't do it anymore. I'm out,
meaning he just couldn't deal with this constant conversation about
this unsolved and heartbreaking case. That your mileage may vary.
At one point, this brother of one of the victims
was very outspoken, and he's a super articulate guy, and
I admire him immensely, but he said to me, I
just need to step back. I can't do it anymore.
One of the things I've learned, which I try to
take some life lessons and learn them as we go,
is that you've got to respect that. One of the
areas where I would push back in the Idaho case
is people were insisting on social media that the families
were furious and that they were unhappy and not supportive
of this plea deal.
Speaker 2: And that's not true.
Speaker 3: What you can actually say now that all four families
have spoken, is that two of the families were very unhappy.
And we'll get into some more details as you mentioned
the Chapin and Morgan families. Actually it would appear okay
accepting supportive of the plea deal.
Speaker 6: And I don't think that there's any right or wrong
in either of this. I think that if you're going
to be furious about it, it's fine. You have the
right to be furious. If you're fine with it, you
have the right to be fine with it. Everybody, like
you said, your mileage may vary. Every person who comes
into this terrible club that nobody wants to join. Everybody's
experience is different. I don't want people to sit here
and think that we are supporting one family over another.
Speaker 4: Their experience is what it is.
Speaker 6: Our job is to sit here and amplify their voices
as needed, but certainly not to place judgment on any
of the families or how they've responded to it. They
respond how they respond. This is the first time they've
ever had to deal with anything like this. So the
Chapin and the Mogan families, like we said, have indicated
that they are fine with the plea deal because they
would just rather move on. And certainly, like you said,
it would be decades and decades of appeals and various
other things.
Speaker 4: I understand that.
Speaker 6: On the other hand, though, we also have the Goenkalvas
and the Kronadal families, and so the Gunkalvas family has
posted a lot on their Facebook page, and I want
to make sure that we can share some of this
with you all. So after the announcement of the plea
went public, like immediately on Monday, here is what they posted.
And this has been disseminated widely on social media. So
this is and in the regular news media too. This
is not like a sharing anything that isn't already online.
The Gunkalvas family Facebook page said We're beyond furious at
the State of Idaho. They have failed us. Please give
us some time. This was very unexpected. We appreciate all
your love and support. So that was what the media
was running with for the first couple of hours of
information about the plea deal. Then they started releasing some
other written statements. Later on in the day, a written
statement from Aubrigen Colbez, Kaylee's sister stated, quote, the introduction
of this plea deal just weeks before the scheduled trial
is both shocking and cruel. Bran Coberger facing a life
in prison means he would still get to speak, form relationships,
and engage with the world. Meanwhile, our loved ones are
silenced forever. The statement then continued, the Leayta County Prosecutor's
office treatment of our family during the process is something
I wouldn't wish on anyone. It was no shock how
the Leata County Prosecutor's Office mishandled the plea deal. They
vaguely mentioned a possible plea on Friday without seeking our input,
and presented the plea on Sunday. Leyta County should be
ashamed of its part Secutor's office.
Speaker 2: End quote. She raises a number of very good points.
Speaker 3: All as we talked about at the top of this discussion,
both of us were very struck by the fact that
this plea deal seems to come very late in the
process because they were heading towards a trial next month. Further,
and think that Aubrey Kaylee's sister raises a really interesting point.
Speaker 2: She's not the only one that said this. I've seen
this elsewhere.
Speaker 3: The families were discussing this with the prosecutor's office on Friday,
they weren't even told that this was a done deal,
or if I understand what the families have said so far,
it doesn't even sound like it would look like a
strong possibility on Friday, and then somehow Sunday we get
to yes, this is a done deal.
Speaker 2: For what it's worth. I know we all like to
poke fun at.
Speaker 3: Lawyers, they do work very hard, and they often work
seven days a week. I have no doubt that the
prosecutor's office and the defense team consulted the rule of
the weekend, but it is very strange that the families
who attended these meetings on Friday didn't have any real
clear indication that there was a strong possibility of a
plea arrangement being announced via letter on Sunday public announcement
on Monday.
Speaker 2: That had to come as a big shock.
Speaker 3: And I do think the criticism of the prosecutor's office
is valid there. If you're going to cut a plea deal,
you've got to tell the families, and you knew that
some of the families, at least two in this example,
we're going to be very unhappy about it. The prosecutors
have to face the music here and be honest with
the families.
Speaker 2: And this is where we struggle right.
Speaker 3: Now with the FBI especially, and to a certain extent,
the Virginia State Police and the Colonial Parkway murders. They're
not being honest with us. They're not communicating effectively. They
are mostly holding at arm's length. And it sounds like,
just what I've seen from direct quotes from these families,
they feel like they've been very shabbily treated by this
whole process.
Speaker 4: I think that's absolutely fair to say.
Speaker 6: Steve Gounkalva's appeared on Banfield with Ashley Banfield on NewsNation,
and he continued talking about the fact that he feels
like a plea bargain in which prison is the ultimate
sentence is not enough. He said, prison is nothing but
adult childcare. You get free vision, you get free dental,
you get free meals, you get ac room and board,
cable TV, internet access. It's ridiculous. Any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: I've never been inside prison, so a little hard for
me to say. Somehow my sense of it is from film, television,
documentaries and so on. I might disagree with mister Kalvas
about how he views how plush prisons are. You were
given up your freedom in this case, for the rest
of your life.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I'm no fan of Brian Koberger. I would not have
shed any tears. Actually, if he had been sentenced to death,
the only tear I might have shed would have probably
been something along the lines of why is it taking
me so long when a decade from now Coburger's still
alive in death row somewhere in Idaho and they still
haven't gotten around to putting a bullet in his head.
I don't know that this kind of plush arrangement that
Steve Kalvis is describing, I don't think it's quite all that.
Speaker 6: As one of our friends, I've been talking to a
lot of our friends in the crime and justice space
over the last couple of days talking about this, and
as one of our friends pointed out, if he goes
on death row, he gets a cell all to himself.
He isn't allowed to interact with the general population, and
that means he does have a certain degree of freedom
that you don't.
Speaker 4: Get if you're in gen pop.
Speaker 6: Whereas if he's life without the possibility of parole, he's
in gen pop. And I have to imagine that there
are going to be people out there who are going
to gun for him from minute one, because he has
a certain amount of notoriety and who wouldn't want to
be the person who took down Brian Coberger. I think
that is something that we have to at least consider
might happen.
Speaker 4: It happened to Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker 3: It's happened to a lot of people. And we follow
the Whitey Bulger case and I have for years. Of course,
he's from Boston and he's a mobster, and those are
two things that are of great interest to me. He
was killed within twenty four hours of arriving at a
new prison. He was put into general population and a
guy who's already serving life without possibility of parole, brutally
killed him one day after he'd arrived at a new prison.
I do understand why horrific murderers are placed in death
row away from other prisoners, Arbeit for me to be
too terribly sympathetic to people that are in prison, But remember,
prison contains people that are fathers and mothers, that have children,
and that have strong views about murder, and particularly about
murder and sexual assault and other serious crimes that are
against children and young people.
Speaker 2: As you were saying, this.
Speaker 3: Is a situation where someone might lash out at a
prisoner like Brian Coberger.
Speaker 6: The Gunkalvaz family said, and I get what they want here.
I totally understand it. They said that they would, quote,
at a bare minimum, please require a full confession, full accountability,
location of the murder, weapon, confirmation the defendant acted alone,
and the true facts of what happened that night.
Speaker 4: We deserve to know when the beginning of the end
was end.
Speaker 2: Quote.
Speaker 4: I one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2: I could not agree more.
Speaker 3: I actually think without this his alection, admitting his guilt
and explaining how these murders took.
Speaker 2: Place, I completely agree.
Speaker 3: I think this should be, as he says, at a
bare minimum, otherwise he walks.
Speaker 2: Away not scott free.
Speaker 3: Exactly, he should be required to answer all of the
questions that the prosecutors and the families had.
Speaker 6: So I did ask our friend Cheryl McCollum mack when
exactly the allocution would be taking place, because I wasn't sure.
As somebody who does not spend a lot of time
in the court system, I didn't know when that would
take place. So I asked her because she knows better
than I would, after all, she's best dayes with Nancy Grace,
and she did say that if such an allocution will happen,
it will happen on the day of sentencing, which would
be July twenty third. So for anybody who wants all
of it, July twenty third is going to be the
day that you want to be watching the live stream
because that, hope will be the day that he gives
everything up, the motive everything. For example, they have not
found the k bar knife. That is definitely one of
the things that I think everybody wants to know. Where's
the knife? You left a sheaf because you're an idiot,
but where's the knife? Right what is up with these kids?
Why did you choose them? Bare minimum? I agree? What
they can call his family wholeheartedly, full confession, full accountability.
Speaker 4: Where's the weapon? Did you act alone? And what was this?
What was this?
Speaker 6: Was this some inceell fantasy about murdering a whole group
of girls and Ethan happened to be there?
Speaker 4: What was this?
Speaker 2: I agree?
Speaker 3: And it's intensely dissatisfying. If he's permitted to just walk
at the end of this process and go off to
spend the rest of his life in jail, I think
at a minimum this should be a requirement of a
plear arrangement like this. There's more than from Jeff Kernodle,
who is Xana Karnodle's father.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 6: The one other thing I do want to mention that
the Gonkalvaz family had posted on their Facebook page was
they did ask people to contact the DOJ court officials
and the judge to encourage them to reject the plea deal,
and that is something that the judge today at the
plea hearing did address. Jeff Cernodal, father of Xanna Kernadal,
is not happy with the plea deal either. He spoke
to New York Times and said that he does not
support the plea deal. He wished it would require mister
Coberger to detail his crimes and provide answers to some
of the mysteries that have continued to hang over this case. Again,
we're in full agreement, he said. I do not agree
with this outcome and expressed my concerns before the deal
was negotiated after nearly three years of waiting and being
told there would be a trial with evidence presented to
convict him.
Speaker 4: I am disappointed in the prosecutor's decision.
Speaker 3: Totally get it, and I totally understand the two fathers frustration.
I think there's just no way around the fact that
if you're going to have a plea deal like this,
it has to include a full allocution where he admits
his crimes and answers detailed questions about how and why
this happened. But why is probably never going to make
sense to those of us that are not nuts. But
why did you kill four beautiful young people and we
don't even think you knew them? Whatever the explanation is,
I actually am interested in hearing it.
Speaker 2: I know millions of other people are too.
Speaker 3: But I think these details and things like what happened
to the knife?
Speaker 2: Where did you discard the knife?
Speaker 3: By the way, I'm not sure if they'd be able
to recover the knife if he threw it in a
body of water, disposed it in the trash. There could
be a million places where this knife ended up. But
at least what did he do with it? Did he
throw it out of the car while he was driving
down the road? Did he toss it off for ridge,
into a river? Whatever it is. Law enforcement may try
to locate the knife, but I think at a minimum,
these unanswered questions should be answered to the satisfaction of
the families and the prosecutor.
Speaker 6: We still have a lot to talk about with regard
to the plea hearing which took place on Wednesday, July second.
Speaker 4: We also have a lot more that.
Speaker 6: We would like to share from our listeners who weighed
in on their thoughts on the plea deal.
Speaker 4: So we will turn.
Speaker 6: This into a second episode. So we will be back
with more on the Brian Koburger Lee hearing and information
from our listeners on their thoughts and more on the
family perspective. From my podcast partner, Bill Thomas, Thank you
so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder,
We'll See You Next Time.
Speaker 1: Is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas.
Speaker 2: Five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.