1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 7 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,239 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,480 Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Billy. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 5: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,799 Speaker 6: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome to July everybody. 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,359 It is July second, hot and humid here, and the 17 00:00:53,439 --> 00:00:57,600 story of the week so far has been the late 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,399 breaking news on Monday, June thirtieth that Brian Cooberger, the 19 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:05,040 suspect in the twenty twenty two Idaho for a murder case, 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:11,560 agreed to plead guilty to the brutal stabbing death of Xenachernadel, Kayleygan, 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,719 colbez Ethan Chapin, and Madison Mogan. 22 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:17,719 Speaker 3: I think you were the person that broke the news, 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,359 which is not the first time that's happened. And then 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,799 of course I jumped online as we always do, and 25 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:28,719 started to see stories come through, particularly on x slash, 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,040 Twitter threads and other places where you go when you 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,799 just want to quick grab in terms of what's going on, 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,120 and then typically those links will lead you to longer stories. 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: It was a bit of a surprise. 30 00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 3: Even what we've learned over the last forty eight hours 31 00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:46,879 is also a bit surprising because the whole thing seems 32 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:48,159 to have happened so fast. 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,719 Speaker 6: It definitely seemed that way, and so for that reason, 34 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,239 we wanted to break down what we know so far 35 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:59,000 of the plea deal. I watched the live stream of 36 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:02,319 the plea here earlier this afternoon, just a couple of 37 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:05,719 hours ago. I have information about that to share as well, 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,639 And we also wanted to share our perspectives as people 39 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,960 who have intimate insider knowledge of the criminal justice system. 40 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:16,400 And of course, because Bill is the brother of a 41 00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:19,879 murder victim, he's got I think, probably greater insight than 42 00:02:20,159 --> 00:02:23,759 I do certainly about what this process must be like 43 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,960 for a family member. So Bill will look forward to 44 00:02:27,039 --> 00:02:30,280 your insights and color commentary. 45 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:32,439 Speaker 4: As we always call it. Let's start with the plea deal. 46 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:34,039 Speaker 6: I'm going to go ahead and quote from a couple 47 00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:37,319 of different sources here, mainly CBS News in New York Times, 48 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,560 since they had the most to offer. According to reporting 49 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:44,520 from Jordan Freeman and Brian Dax of CBS News, Ben Mogan, 50 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:47,800 Mattie's father, shared the letter from the court advising the 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,360 families that Coburger's attorneys had asked for a plea deal. 52 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 4: Quote. 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,039 Speaker 6: The letter stated that Coburger agreed to plead guilty to 54 00:02:56,319 --> 00:02:59,800 all counts against him, and that he would be sentenced 55 00:02:59,879 --> 00:03:02,360 to you for a consecutive that means back to back 56 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,400 life sentences on the flour murder counts, and would waive 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,360 all rights to appeal. There would be no possibility of 58 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:13,439 parole for Coburger, which means he will spend the rest 59 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:17,199 of his life behind bars based on that plead deal 60 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:18,400 right there, what do you think? 61 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,319 Speaker 3: First of all, remember, prior to this point, the death 62 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,680 penalty was on the table. Idaho does have the death penalty. Ironically, 63 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:31,400 they have the death penalty, and the execution part is 64 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,400 actually by firing squad, which strikes me as kayek. But 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,080 that was very much on the table if Coberger had 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,879 been found guilty. And although I think law enforcement did 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,759 an outstanding job with this investigation, there's always the possibility 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,319 that something can go wrong. It only takes one surer 69 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:59,560 to express doubt and lock into a position that can 70 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:02,759 result in a hung jury. We've seen any number of 71 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,240 cases where we were absolutely convinced of an individual's guilt 72 00:04:07,319 --> 00:04:11,080 and yet the person walked. So you can't say, and 73 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:13,680 I've seen a lot of people on social media saying 74 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,040 Cobra is guilty. I strongly believe that he is as well. 75 00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:21,240 Until it's proven in a court of law, you cannot 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,600 say that he's going to face the death penalty or 77 00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:26,759 he's going to spend the rest of his life in 78 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,519 jail without possibility of parole. I was very surprised, particularly 79 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,439 since they were already moving into trial prep, getting ready 80 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,199 for an August trial, which was expected to last about 81 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,240 three weeks in mid August. That surprised me because I 82 00:04:43,319 --> 00:04:47,279 would have thought if there were plea offers proffered, as 83 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,439 they put it, I would have thought this would have 84 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:50,360 happened months ago. 85 00:04:50,879 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: It hadn't happens. 86 00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 3: Therefore, I thought that was off the table and that 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,160 they were moving forward with the death penalty case. 88 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,399 Speaker 6: Yeah, and we don't really know the reason and why 89 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,560 the plea deal came up now, but I'm going to 90 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:06,720 make an educated guest, just based on the things that 91 00:05:06,759 --> 00:05:10,199 have happened recently in the case, my assumption, and I'm 92 00:05:10,199 --> 00:05:13,279 willing to be proven wrong on this because again I 93 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:16,680 haven't been following the case as closely as I am currently. 94 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:17,759 Speaker 4: Definitely. 95 00:05:17,959 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 6: Last week, Judge Stephen Hipler denied a motion by Coburger's lawyers, 96 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:27,000 who were seeking to argue that four alternate perpetrators could 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,240 have committed the murders. 98 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,519 Speaker 4: They were going with it. He didn't do it. 99 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 6: It was potentially four other people. You're shaking your head. 100 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 3: For the benefit of our listeners. I am seriously rolling 101 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:41,680 my eyes. There was a lot of evidence. Now, nothing 102 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:43,839 is a slam dunk, as I said in a court 103 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,240 of law, the idea that there were four alternate. 104 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,439 Speaker 2: Killers, I'm sorry, this is ludicrous. 105 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,639 Speaker 3: Unless they were able to prove this beyond a shadow 106 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,959 of a doubt. Coburger was going to go down for 107 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,199 this thing. So I don't know if it's that the 108 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,079 realization suddenly began to sync in with his defense team 109 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,079 that this was going nowhere. But they're the ones that 110 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,079 reached out to the prosecution and they asked the prosecution 111 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:14,399 if an offer was on the table or could be proffered. 112 00:06:14,439 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: As they say, I. 113 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 4: Think it has a lot to do with that. 114 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 6: When they brought up this alternate perpetrator's theory, the judge 115 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:25,560 called it quote rank speculation and said, nothing links these 116 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,199 individuals to the homicide. 117 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: So I'm guessing that his lawyers had. 118 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,079 Speaker 6: Reached a point where they realized there isn't anything we 119 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,160 can mount here in terms of the defense. They had 120 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,240 sought prior to this to exclude the touch DNA from 121 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,600 Coburger that was found on the sheath of the k 122 00:06:42,759 --> 00:06:45,560 bar knife. They sought to take the death penalty off 123 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,759 the table. Both of those motions were denied. They wanted 124 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,759 to enter an official alibi for Coburger, and the judge 125 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,879 was like, no, you can't do that because no one 126 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:57,120 can vouch for where you were during the time of 127 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,600 the killings, and his lawyers were like, he was driving 128 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:02,439 around by himself that night, that's not an alibi. 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,519 Speaker 4: You can't be your own alibi. Someone else has to 130 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:06,079 have seen you. 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,879 Speaker 6: So I feel like at this point all of these 132 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,000 things had happened very recently. I'm wondering if his defense 133 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:14,480 team was just like, hell, we got nothing left. 134 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,079 Speaker 2: And what's ludicrous about this alibi? 135 00:07:17,199 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: Where Coberger's supposed to be driving around by himself at night. 136 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: So much of the location of the car. 137 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 3: Over the weeks leading up to the murder was the 138 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:34,800 white Alantra showing up on security footage at various homes 139 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,319 and businesses, and they say that he drove by the 140 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,680 site where the murders later took place as many as 141 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:49,439 a dozen times. Where's the I'll use alibi video of 142 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,680 him driving the car that would place him elsewhere at 143 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,800 the time of the murders, the actual night of the murders. 144 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,639 It just doesn't wash the whole thing over them and 145 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,439 months we've been following this case, so much of the 146 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:07,279 defense just seemed to smack a desperation. And although not 147 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,600 everything was revealed, and obviously it would have been a 148 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,720 very interesting trial had it gone to trial, I would 149 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,000 have been very interested in hearing all of the evidence 150 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:23,120 that the Moscow Police Department, Idaho State Police, and FBI 151 00:08:23,279 --> 00:08:27,279 and other agencies work together to build and I think 152 00:08:27,279 --> 00:08:31,079 they would have built an incredibly strong case. I'm hoping, 153 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,360 actually over time that more will come out because I've 154 00:08:34,399 --> 00:08:36,960 seen a list and some of it's hearing your notes 155 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,440 about sources of evidence that allowed them to build such 156 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,720 a strong case against Coburger. I was real surprised just 157 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,720 by the fact that this had been allowed to stretch 158 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:51,000 on for so long, because this was looking like a 159 00:08:51,159 --> 00:08:53,279 very strong case to me months ago. 160 00:08:53,759 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 6: And we'll definitely get into sort of the timing on 161 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,519 all of this, because it does sound like the timing 162 00:08:59,639 --> 00:09:02,480 on this deal was very tight, and the judge even 163 00:09:02,519 --> 00:09:06,039 acknowledged it earlier today at the plea hearing. But before 164 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,840 we get there, I want to provide some more context here. 165 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:13,799 What happened is the families of the victims were all 166 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:19,080 sent a letter from the Moscow prosecuting Attorney, Bill Thompson, 167 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,320 and it outlined the terms of the plea. Ben Mogen Matty, 168 00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:25,840 Mogan's father, shared a portion of. 169 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,399 Speaker 4: That letter with various news outlets. 170 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:30,799 Speaker 6: So I'm going to read just a portion of it, 171 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,279 because I haven't seen the whole thing yet. But here 172 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,240 is a portion of that letter from prosecuting Attorney Bill 173 00:09:36,279 --> 00:09:39,879 Thompson outlining the terms of the plea quote, we cannot 174 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:42,679 fathom the toll that this case has taken on your family. 175 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:46,600 This resolution is our sincere attempt to seek justice for 176 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,360 your family. This agreement ensures that the defendant will be convicted, 177 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:53,039 we'll spend the rest of his life in prison and 178 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,960 will not be able to put you and the other 179 00:09:55,039 --> 00:09:59,320 families through the uncertainty of decades of post conviction appeals. 180 00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:03,639 Your viewpoints weigh heavily in our decision making process, and 181 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,120 we hope that you may come to appreciate why we 182 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,919 believe this resolution is in the best interest of justice. 183 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 2: I get it. 184 00:10:12,919 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: I think that families are split. As I understand it, 185 00:10:17,399 --> 00:10:21,919 two of the families have expressed great disappointment and they're 186 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,039 profound unhappiness with how this plea deal has come about. 187 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: It's really important to note there are also two. 188 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: Other families and they're all part of this, that actually 189 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,120 have expressed support. 190 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:36,879 Speaker 2: For this plea deal. 191 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: And we're not necessarily seeking the death penalty from my 192 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,799 friends that are death penalty supporters, and that includes members 193 00:10:45,799 --> 00:10:48,879 of the Colonial Parkway murders families. We've talked about this 194 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,679 a number of times. Should the Colonial Parkway murders, additional 195 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:55,879 suspects ever be identified, and we hope that they will, 196 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,200 some of them are still alive, is what is our understanding, 197 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:03,120 So the death penalty would be on the table in 198 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:06,559 a case like the Colonial Parkway murders. I personally am 199 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,120 not a supporter of the death penalty. Members of my 200 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,320 family are not supporters of the death penalty. Other Colonial 201 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,759 Parkway Murders family members are, and I completely get it 202 00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:21,559 and much in the same way watching members of the 203 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,480 Idaho four families speak out, some for the death penalty, 204 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:28,440 some strongly opposed. 205 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:33,039 Speaker 2: They're all valid. But my reminder for my friends that. 206 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: Support the death penalty is if you've ever taken a 207 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,200 look at death penalty cases, and we have often drag 208 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,960 on four years. So if Brian Coberger were found guilty 209 00:11:47,159 --> 00:11:51,120 later on this summer, please understand it's not like they're 210 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:53,919 going to find him guilty and march him out back 211 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,240 and have him shot by our firing squad. He would 212 00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:01,200 have been in jail four years. As as the appeals 213 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,399 drag on. Many people who are on death row in 214 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,879 various states around the country have been there for years, 215 00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:14,360 sometimes even decades. It's not that much different than life 216 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:15,080 without parole. 217 00:12:15,879 --> 00:12:19,879 Speaker 6: I was doing some reading on this topic, and there 218 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,519 is someone in Idaho right now who has been on 219 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,600 death row and awaiting execution for forty years. The state 220 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,159 got their chance last year. They botched it. They botched 221 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,320 the execution. 222 00:12:34,159 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 4: And now it's back again into the legal system. What 223 00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:39,919 are we going to do with this guy? When are 224 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:41,679 we gonna do we have another hearing that we need 225 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,120 to do. When are we gonna It really. 226 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 6: Does not end because the state does not take state 227 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,240 sanctioned murder, which is what the death penalty goes lately, 228 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:52,960 nor should it. 229 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 3: I do get the views of the families that would 230 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,679 like to see Coberger put to death for killing four 231 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:05,559 beautiful young people for what still has never been explained, 232 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,080 and I'm not sure even I've said this about the 233 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,360 Colonial Parkway murders. We may find out the why someday, 234 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:15,840 much in the same way. I know members of the 235 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,440 families in the Idaho four case are saying, we want 236 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,799 to know why. But as I've said before, I'm not 237 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,440 sure the why is ever going to be a satisfactory answer. 238 00:13:29,039 --> 00:13:34,440 We're talking about an inherently illogical and evil act. We 239 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:39,120 haven't even found, to my knowledge, a connection between Coburger 240 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,879 and the four victims. I don't know that he knows 241 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,799 Sanna or Kaylee, Ethan or Madison. 242 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Did he ever interact with them? 243 00:13:47,759 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 3: Did he did they catch his eye working at the 244 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:53,159 vegetarian restaurant? 245 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: Who knows? 246 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: There doesn't seem to be any close personal or working 247 00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:02,240 relationship with these four college students there are at different 248 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,120 universities in two different states. They may be only fifteen 249 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,919 or so minutes apart. But we don't even know that 250 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,360 his why would ever make any sense to a rational 251 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:13,960 human being. 252 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:18,919 Speaker 6: And I think that the emotional drivers behind this. Anybody 253 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,600 who's ever gone through a sudden, terrible loss understands the 254 00:14:23,679 --> 00:14:27,679 turmoil that you go through. It's unbearable. Everyone is on 255 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:31,639 a continuum of how they deal with it. I was 256 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,519 talking to Joyce Call earlier today and we were talking 257 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:38,799 about how various members of her family have dealt with 258 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:42,639 this process and this loss. She says, every single one 259 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:45,639 of her siblings is different and at various times where 260 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:47,480 she is on her own. 261 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,279 Speaker 4: Journey has varied for her. 262 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 6: This isn't something that you can process in two years, 263 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:56,519 three years, four years, and in your case, I'm sure 264 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,720 that it's been thirty nine years and you probably still 265 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,120 have an fully reached the full spectrum of emotions. Here 266 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,440 we were saying off air, if it turns out that 267 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,759 there is somebody responsible for the Colonial Parkway murders who 268 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,679 is still alive and they're able to be brought to justice, 269 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,559 would you want to flick the switch? And I know 270 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:17,840 you had said you reserve the right to change your 271 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,840 mind on whether you would or wouldn't, And I don't 272 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,200 blame you. 273 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:22,399 Speaker 4: I don't blame you a bit. 274 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,879 Speaker 3: But yet other family members I won't name names here 275 00:15:25,879 --> 00:15:28,480 because it wouldn't be appropriate, But we've talked a lot 276 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,559 about this, and remember we've been through this long investigative process, 277 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,000 and now we have a new team at the FBI. 278 00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:39,840 That's a whole nother conversation where the family. 279 00:15:39,799 --> 00:15:41,159 Speaker 4: It's a whole other episode. 280 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: The families are incredibly frustrated. We'll get into that in 281 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,360 a future episode of Mind Over Murder. There are family 282 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:50,919 members who've looked me in the eye and said, I 283 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,320 will happily flip the switch myself to put these people 284 00:15:55,399 --> 00:16:00,360 to death. I'm not that person, but I completely back 285 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,759 then have great admiration for the other Colonial Parkway murders 286 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:07,679 family members. More than one person has said this to me, 287 00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:12,000 they would be willing to flip the switch themselves on 288 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,559 the electric chair or the gas chamber or whatever it 289 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:18,799 is that Virginia has come up with too humanely. I'm 290 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,919 putting quotes around that fort a prisoner to death. It's 291 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,759 a horrific process, and it's daunting to think that when 292 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:31,159 note the optimism the Colonial Parkray murders are solved and 293 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,639 additional suspects are named and case is more fully adjudicated, 294 00:16:36,879 --> 00:16:39,320 I think only at the other end of that process, 295 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,960 which could be years more, will we have a full 296 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,120 understanding of what this whole process of the justice system 297 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,559 is about. I can tell you from the family's perspective 298 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,039 and from my personal point of view, what I've seen 299 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,039 so far has been really bad, and I feel like 300 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,200 the families in the Colonial Parkray murders are feeling terribly disrespected, 301 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,799 but also just watching the families in the Idaho case, 302 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,759 they feel the same way, and one of their biggest 303 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:12,759 concerns seemed to be how little notice was given of 304 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:13,799 the plea arrangement. 305 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, and that is actually something that was brought up 306 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,880 at the plea hearing today, and so I'll get into 307 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,839 that in a couple of minutes. But I can definitely 308 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,799 see where if you're looking at this from the perspective 309 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:29,880 of somebody who's just been tossed into it, because let's 310 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,000 be real about it, until you were in the middle 311 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,279 of dealing with a major tragedy on this level where 312 00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:39,000 you've had to deal with the criminal justice system, most 313 00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:42,079 of us don't know how the process works. It's not 314 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:45,119 like when you join the club that nobody wants to join. 315 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,960 It's not like you have a handbook how to here's 316 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,119 a victim's advocate, and here's a media consultant. Let's talk 317 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,000 about the best way to deal with this in the media. 318 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,880 You guys are just tossed in one hundred percent un 319 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,279 prepared and in some cases floundering. This has got to 320 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:07,680 just be an absolutely awful process. I hope I'm not 321 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,000 speaking out of turn for you there, but it looks 322 00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:13,359 like it must be just almost incomprehensible at times. 323 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 3: It is, And I don't know necessarily that I know 324 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:19,920 how to fix it. I know that at some point 325 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,559 these are things I want to put down on paper. 326 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,559 I think there are improvements that can be made to 327 00:18:25,759 --> 00:18:28,839 this process. And again, we haven't even been through the 328 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,359 whole court system. This is still thirty eight going on 329 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,400 thirty nine years now in the investigative stages. Let's talk 330 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,119 a little bit about the family perspective in the Idaho case. 331 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,319 How were the various families responding in terms of what 332 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:47,319 they've said publicly? 333 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 4: Good question. 334 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 6: The idea behind the plea deal is to save the 335 00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:54,759 families from a protracted and painful trial, but of course 336 00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:58,640 not all of the families do want that outcome. So 337 00:18:58,839 --> 00:19:02,480 of the four families, the Chapins and the Mogans have 338 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,839 indicated their approval of the plea deal. I'm going to 339 00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:08,519 get into each of their separate responses here a second, 340 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,000 and the gun Calls family and the Carnadal family have 341 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,400 indicated their displeasure at the thing. 342 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 4: Because there is. 343 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,079 Speaker 6: So much to talk about with regards to the gun 344 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,759 Calves family and the Carnadal family, I'm going to start 345 00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:24,960 with the Chapins and the Mogans, largely because they have 346 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,000 not had as much to say in the media. So 347 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:32,400 the families of Ethan Chapin and Mattimogen seem to be 348 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,359 happy with the plea deal. Mattie's father, Ben spoke to 349 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,799 The New York Times and he talked about how the 350 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:43,960 case had been tormenting him and his family. He said 351 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,599 they wanted to heal and they were dreading a trial. 352 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,240 He said, it's been a nightmare that's approaching in our heads. 353 00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:53,160 Now we can actually put this behind us and not 354 00:19:53,319 --> 00:19:56,440 have these future dates and future things that we don't want. 355 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:58,319 Speaker 4: To be at that we shouldn't have to be at, 356 00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:59,960 that have to do with this terror. 357 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 6: Now we get to just think about the rest of 358 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,880 our lives and have to try and figure out how 359 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,000 to do it without Maddie and without the rest of 360 00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:08,640 these kids. 361 00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 4: End quote. 362 00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 3: It's very thoughtful, and you can see his pain and 363 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,200 their anticipation of how dreadful they were afraid the trial 364 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:23,680 would be. It's a very understandable response from one father. 365 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 6: And prior to that quote that I pulled from the 366 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,920 New York Times article, he was talking about the fact 367 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,359 that one of the discussions he was having with the 368 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,640 prosecution as they were talking about trial prep before the 369 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,519 plea deal came up, was they were mentioning to what 370 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,119 extent it would be appropriate for the families to leave 371 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,640 the courtroom during certain painful moments of testimony. And they'd 372 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,440 been telling him that you're going to have to show 373 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,759 crime scene photos and it's going to be wrenching and 374 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,160 wretch it. There has not been a lot written about 375 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,240 the actual crime scene at eleven twenty two Kings Road, 376 00:20:58,599 --> 00:21:01,640 but I mean, there was a photo put out that 377 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:05,079 showed blood dripping down the outside of the house from 378 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,160 one of the bedrooms. 379 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 4: We have to assume it was a terrible scene. You 380 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:11,680 wouldn't want to see that. 381 00:21:12,279 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 6: But imagine being a father, or a mother or a 382 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,319 sibling of that and knowing we're about to have this 383 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,839 trial and we're going to end up seeing these photos, 384 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,440 or we're going to be stepping out in the hallway 385 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,240 because we don't want to see these photos. 386 00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:26,319 Speaker 4: But either way they're going to get out there. 387 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:29,319 Speaker 6: I can't imagine the kind of horror that would be 388 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,160 for a family. 389 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 4: No that's coming. 390 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,039 Speaker 3: We've seen the leaked crime scene photos and the Colonial 391 00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:38,480 Parkway murders, and they are horrific. I'm sorry I ended 392 00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:40,960 up seeing them. That was due to an FBI leak 393 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,880 of those photos, which is how I ended up seeing them, 394 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,640 but I don't want to see them again, and I 395 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,039 would certainly be headed for the door if and when 396 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,160 we go to trial and individuals beyond Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, 397 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:58,839 now deceased, are being charged, I would want. 398 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: To be sitting at the end of the row so 399 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:02,480 that I could slip out if that. 400 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:05,799 Speaker 3: Was what was being shown, and hopefully someone would give 401 00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:08,839 me the heads up that we're done showing photographs for now. 402 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,680 I completely understand it and the dread that Maddie's father 403 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:18,680 is trying to convey. It's more than understandable how the 404 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:20,279 Mogan family would feel that way. 405 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. 406 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 407 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,400 We're back here at mindover Murder. 408 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 6: The Shapin family has really made an effort not to 409 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:40,440 talk to the media about their feelings about the potential 410 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,119 trial about the plate. They are very focused on their 411 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,519 foundation that they created in their son's name, Ethan Smile, 412 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,119 which offers college scholarships or students from the Skaggot Valley, 413 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,799 which is where they were from. So the Chapins have 414 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,359 put a lot of their time and energy in the 415 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,519 press into discs using the things that they have done 416 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,240 should movie things memory forward. But they have not chosen 417 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:08,480 to spoke to the media with regard to the upcoming trial, 418 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:11,480 which of course now will not happen, or the plea themselves. 419 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:13,880 The only thing that they did indicate was that they 420 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,720 would be in court in Boise today, which they were 421 00:23:16,839 --> 00:23:20,400 in support of the plea deal. But anything else they've 422 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,839 kept it largely under wraps, which again I think I 423 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:24,880 can also understand. 424 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 4: I know, Bill that you are probably the most media. 425 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 6: Savvy out of any of the Colonial Parkway murders family members. 426 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 I can understand wanting to keep some of that stuff 427 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:37,680 under wraps and held back. This is not the easiest 428 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,599 thing to talk about. 429 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: No, and none of us like the idea of melting 430 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,039 down in front of the media. I know sometimes when 431 00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:49,119 I've done interviews and other family members have expressed this 432 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,880 as well. We all have our hot button issues, the 433 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,039 ones that bring the emotion bubbling up to the surface. 434 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,319 For me, it's mostly about the impact that losing my 435 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,559 sister Kathy had on my parents and the rest of 436 00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:04,599 my family. We've talked about this here at Mind of 437 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:08,079 a Murder and elsewhere it's incredibly difficult because there's such 438 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,319 heightened emotion, and then you've got cameras and microphones and 439 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,359 things being thrust at you, so it's really difficult to 440 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,200 keep it together and not choke up. Here's two families 441 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:26,000 and the Chapin family, and again it's completely understandable they 442 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,720 want to support the plea deal, but they're not going 443 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:31,920 to talk to the press and they don't have to, 444 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:35,160 and they shouldn't have to. This is one area where 445 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,440 I think the press fails us sometimes. I hope that, 446 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,400 for instance, the Chapin families asked to be let alone. 447 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,839 Speaker 2: I hope media people, reporters, etc. 448 00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: Will respect that and not be calling them at home 449 00:24:50,079 --> 00:24:53,359 for weeks or months looking for public statements. 450 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: If they don't want to say anything, just let them be. 451 00:24:57,039 --> 00:24:59,559 Speaker 6: And one of the things that I have learned working 452 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:02,720 with you and the other Colonial Parkway murders families, and 453 00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:05,319 we actually realized last week that we've been working together 454 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:06,440 ten years. 455 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 4: On this case. 456 00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. 457 00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 4: I don't even know how that happened. 458 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 6: But the one thing that I have learned is that 459 00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:16,359 all of the families in this case, they all have 460 00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:20,319 separate preferences for dealing with the media preferences for what 461 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,759 they want to talk about and what they don't, and 462 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:25,960 that's something that I think a lot of people in 463 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,960 the true crime space who want to consume content, I 464 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,880 think they don't understand that every family is different in 465 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,200 that regard, and not every family wants a documentary or 466 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,759 lots of interviews. Not a lot of family members necessarily 467 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:45,400 want to be on podcasts and putting things out there. 468 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,799 I think that it's really important for people who are 469 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:53,079 consuming true crime to remember that everybody comes at this 470 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,920 from a different angle, and everybody is going to experience 471 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,680 it differently. 472 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,799 Speaker 3: Used that expression you're mileage may vary. One of the 473 00:26:01,799 --> 00:26:04,119 things I've seen with the Colonial Park Me murders, too, 474 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,440 is that over time, family members have stepped in to 475 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:12,000 the fray and stepped back. I remember one family member 476 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,319 saying to me, Bill, I can't do it anymore. I'm out, 477 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,920 meaning he just couldn't deal with this constant conversation about 478 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,960 this unsolved and heartbreaking case. That your mileage may vary. 479 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:30,519 At one point, this brother of one of the victims 480 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,720 was very outspoken, and he's a super articulate guy, and 481 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:36,559 I admire him immensely, but he said to me, I 482 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,000 just need to step back. I can't do it anymore. 483 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,799 One of the things I've learned, which I try to 484 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,880 take some life lessons and learn them as we go, 485 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,559 is that you've got to respect that. One of the 486 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,920 areas where I would push back in the Idaho case 487 00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:57,799 is people were insisting on social media that the families 488 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,960 were furious and that they were unhappy and not supportive 489 00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:03,279 of this plea deal. 490 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:04,759 Speaker 2: And that's not true. 491 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,079 Speaker 3: What you can actually say now that all four families 492 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,000 have spoken, is that two of the families were very unhappy. 493 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,079 And we'll get into some more details as you mentioned 494 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:20,039 the Chapin and Morgan families. Actually it would appear okay 495 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,000 accepting supportive of the plea deal. 496 00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 6: And I don't think that there's any right or wrong 497 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:29,759 in either of this. I think that if you're going 498 00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:32,079 to be furious about it, it's fine. You have the 499 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,960 right to be furious. If you're fine with it, you 500 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,240 have the right to be fine with it. Everybody, like 501 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:40,839 you said, your mileage may vary. Every person who comes 502 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,880 into this terrible club that nobody wants to join. Everybody's 503 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,960 experience is different. I don't want people to sit here 504 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:54,240 and think that we are supporting one family over another. 505 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 4: Their experience is what it is. 506 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 6: Our job is to sit here and amplify their voices 507 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,279 as needed, but certainly not to place judgment on any 508 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,160 of the families or how they've responded to it. They 509 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,480 respond how they respond. This is the first time they've 510 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,519 ever had to deal with anything like this. So the 511 00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:16,559 Chapin and the Mogan families, like we said, have indicated 512 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:18,799 that they are fine with the plea deal because they 513 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,279 would just rather move on. And certainly, like you said, 514 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,039 it would be decades and decades of appeals and various 515 00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:27,680 other things. 516 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,599 Speaker 4: I understand that. 517 00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:32,519 Speaker 6: On the other hand, though, we also have the Goenkalvas 518 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:36,759 and the Kronadal families, and so the Gunkalvas family has 519 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:39,759 posted a lot on their Facebook page, and I want 520 00:28:39,759 --> 00:28:41,640 to make sure that we can share some of this 521 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,720 with you all. So after the announcement of the plea 522 00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:48,880 went public, like immediately on Monday, here is what they posted. 523 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,039 And this has been disseminated widely on social media. So 524 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:54,279 this is and in the regular news media too. This 525 00:28:54,359 --> 00:28:57,160 is not like a sharing anything that isn't already online. 526 00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:00,960 The Gunkalvas family Facebook page said We're beyond furious at 527 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,880 the State of Idaho. They have failed us. Please give 528 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,880 us some time. This was very unexpected. We appreciate all 529 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,480 your love and support. So that was what the media 530 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,279 was running with for the first couple of hours of 531 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,880 information about the plea deal. Then they started releasing some 532 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,880 other written statements. Later on in the day, a written 533 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,440 statement from Aubrigen Colbez, Kaylee's sister stated, quote, the introduction 534 00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:27,200 of this plea deal just weeks before the scheduled trial 535 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:30,799 is both shocking and cruel. Bran Coberger facing a life 536 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,200 in prison means he would still get to speak, form relationships, 537 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:37,519 and engage with the world. Meanwhile, our loved ones are 538 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,960 silenced forever. The statement then continued, the Leayta County Prosecutor's 539 00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:44,720 office treatment of our family during the process is something 540 00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:47,839 I wouldn't wish on anyone. It was no shock how 541 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,640 the Leata County Prosecutor's Office mishandled the plea deal. They 542 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,400 vaguely mentioned a possible plea on Friday without seeking our input, 543 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,079 and presented the plea on Sunday. Leyta County should be 544 00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:01,039 ashamed of its part Secutor's office. 545 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: End quote. She raises a number of very good points. 546 00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: All as we talked about at the top of this discussion, 547 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,160 both of us were very struck by the fact that 548 00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,559 this plea deal seems to come very late in the 549 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,440 process because they were heading towards a trial next month. Further, 550 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,839 and think that Aubrey Kaylee's sister raises a really interesting point. 551 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: She's not the only one that said this. I've seen 552 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:26,960 this elsewhere. 553 00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:33,119 Speaker 3: The families were discussing this with the prosecutor's office on Friday, 554 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,000 they weren't even told that this was a done deal, 555 00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:40,240 or if I understand what the families have said so far, 556 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,720 it doesn't even sound like it would look like a 557 00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:47,640 strong possibility on Friday, and then somehow Sunday we get 558 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,720 to yes, this is a done deal. 559 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,119 Speaker 2: For what it's worth. I know we all like to 560 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:53,000 poke fun at. 561 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: Lawyers, they do work very hard, and they often work 562 00:30:56,559 --> 00:30:58,880 seven days a week. I have no doubt that the 563 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,799 prosecutor's office and the defense team consulted the rule of 564 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:07,079 the weekend, but it is very strange that the families 565 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:12,440 who attended these meetings on Friday didn't have any real 566 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:16,319 clear indication that there was a strong possibility of a 567 00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:21,880 plea arrangement being announced via letter on Sunday public announcement 568 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,680 on Monday. 569 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: That had to come as a big shock. 570 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 3: And I do think the criticism of the prosecutor's office 571 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,720 is valid there. If you're going to cut a plea deal, 572 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,839 you've got to tell the families, and you knew that 573 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,160 some of the families, at least two in this example, 574 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,279 we're going to be very unhappy about it. The prosecutors 575 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:45,000 have to face the music here and be honest with 576 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:45,799 the families. 577 00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:47,759 Speaker 2: And this is where we struggle right. 578 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: Now with the FBI especially, and to a certain extent, 579 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,160 the Virginia State Police and the Colonial Parkway murders. They're 580 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,640 not being honest with us. They're not communicating effectively. They 581 00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:02,319 are mostly holding at arm's length. And it sounds like, 582 00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:06,200 just what I've seen from direct quotes from these families, 583 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,839 they feel like they've been very shabbily treated by this 584 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,039 whole process. 585 00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 4: I think that's absolutely fair to say. 586 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 6: Steve Gounkalva's appeared on Banfield with Ashley Banfield on NewsNation, 587 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:23,160 and he continued talking about the fact that he feels 588 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:27,039 like a plea bargain in which prison is the ultimate 589 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,119 sentence is not enough. He said, prison is nothing but 590 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,400 adult childcare. You get free vision, you get free dental, 591 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,119 you get free meals, you get ac room and board, 592 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,559 cable TV, internet access. It's ridiculous. Any thoughts on that. 593 00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:45,359 Speaker 3: I've never been inside prison, so a little hard for 594 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,599 me to say. Somehow my sense of it is from film, television, 595 00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:55,640 documentaries and so on. I might disagree with mister Kalvas 596 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,359 about how he views how plush prisons are. You were 597 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:02,920 given up your freedom in this case, for the rest 598 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:03,839 of your life. 599 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: Now. 600 00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 3: I'm no fan of Brian Koberger. I would not have 601 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:11,359 shed any tears. Actually, if he had been sentenced to death, 602 00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:15,240 the only tear I might have shed would have probably 603 00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:17,920 been something along the lines of why is it taking 604 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,279 me so long when a decade from now Coburger's still 605 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,440 alive in death row somewhere in Idaho and they still 606 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,160 haven't gotten around to putting a bullet in his head. 607 00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:34,000 I don't know that this kind of plush arrangement that 608 00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:37,759 Steve Kalvis is describing, I don't think it's quite all that. 609 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 6: As one of our friends, I've been talking to a 610 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,039 lot of our friends in the crime and justice space 611 00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:44,960 over the last couple of days talking about this, and 612 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,680 as one of our friends pointed out, if he goes 613 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,640 on death row, he gets a cell all to himself. 614 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,519 He isn't allowed to interact with the general population, and 615 00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:59,559 that means he does have a certain degree of freedom 616 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:00,519 that you don't. 617 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 4: Get if you're in gen pop. 618 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 6: Whereas if he's life without the possibility of parole, he's 619 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,280 in gen pop. And I have to imagine that there 620 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,880 are going to be people out there who are going 621 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,320 to gun for him from minute one, because he has 622 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,199 a certain amount of notoriety and who wouldn't want to 623 00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:19,880 be the person who took down Brian Coberger. I think 624 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,159 that is something that we have to at least consider 625 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:23,760 might happen. 626 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 4: It happened to Jeffrey Dahmer. 627 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:27,639 Speaker 3: It's happened to a lot of people. And we follow 628 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,199 the Whitey Bulger case and I have for years. Of course, 629 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,639 he's from Boston and he's a mobster, and those are 630 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,119 two things that are of great interest to me. He 631 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,239 was killed within twenty four hours of arriving at a 632 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,320 new prison. He was put into general population and a 633 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,599 guy who's already serving life without possibility of parole, brutally 634 00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,760 killed him one day after he'd arrived at a new prison. 635 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,920 I do understand why horrific murderers are placed in death 636 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,679 row away from other prisoners, Arbeit for me to be 637 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,079 too terribly sympathetic to people that are in prison, But remember, 638 00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:09,000 prison contains people that are fathers and mothers, that have children, 639 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,960 and that have strong views about murder, and particularly about 640 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,320 murder and sexual assault and other serious crimes that are 641 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,199 against children and young people. 642 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,559 Speaker 2: As you were saying, this. 643 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 3: Is a situation where someone might lash out at a 644 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,519 prisoner like Brian Coberger. 645 00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 6: The Gunkalvaz family said, and I get what they want here. 646 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:35,599 I totally understand it. They said that they would, quote, 647 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:41,239 at a bare minimum, please require a full confession, full accountability, 648 00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:45,880 location of the murder, weapon, confirmation the defendant acted alone, 649 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,559 and the true facts of what happened that night. 650 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,639 Speaker 4: We deserve to know when the beginning of the end 651 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:52,360 was end. 652 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: Quote. 653 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 4: I one hundred percent agree. 654 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:56,559 Speaker 2: I could not agree more. 655 00:35:56,639 --> 00:36:02,079 Speaker 3: I actually think without this his alection, admitting his guilt 656 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,920 and explaining how these murders took. 657 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 2: Place, I completely agree. 658 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,679 Speaker 3: I think this should be, as he says, at a 659 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,280 bare minimum, otherwise he walks. 660 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,199 Speaker 2: Away not scott free. 661 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,599 Speaker 3: Exactly, he should be required to answer all of the 662 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,800 questions that the prosecutors and the families had. 663 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 6: So I did ask our friend Cheryl McCollum mack when 664 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,639 exactly the allocution would be taking place, because I wasn't sure. 665 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,280 As somebody who does not spend a lot of time 666 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,400 in the court system, I didn't know when that would 667 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,559 take place. So I asked her because she knows better 668 00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:43,760 than I would, after all, she's best dayes with Nancy Grace, 669 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:47,559 and she did say that if such an allocution will happen, 670 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:50,960 it will happen on the day of sentencing, which would 671 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,159 be July twenty third. So for anybody who wants all 672 00:36:54,199 --> 00:36:56,400 of it, July twenty third is going to be the 673 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,719 day that you want to be watching the live stream 674 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,119 because that, hope will be the day that he gives 675 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,400 everything up, the motive everything. For example, they have not 676 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,920 found the k bar knife. That is definitely one of 677 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,760 the things that I think everybody wants to know. Where's 678 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,280 the knife? You left a sheaf because you're an idiot, 679 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,400 but where's the knife? Right what is up with these kids? 680 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,559 Why did you choose them? Bare minimum? I agree? What 681 00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:26,079 they can call his family wholeheartedly, full confession, full accountability. 682 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,199 Speaker 4: Where's the weapon? Did you act alone? And what was this? 683 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:31,480 What was this? 684 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 6: Was this some inceell fantasy about murdering a whole group 685 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,079 of girls and Ethan happened to be there? 686 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:38,159 Speaker 4: What was this? 687 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 2: I agree? 688 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,679 Speaker 3: And it's intensely dissatisfying. If he's permitted to just walk 689 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,320 at the end of this process and go off to 690 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,840 spend the rest of his life in jail, I think 691 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,239 at a minimum this should be a requirement of a 692 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,880 plear arrangement like this. There's more than from Jeff Kernodle, 693 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,960 who is Xana Karnodle's father. 694 00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:03,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so. 695 00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:05,119 Speaker 6: The one other thing I do want to mention that 696 00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:08,360 the Gonkalvaz family had posted on their Facebook page was 697 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,800 they did ask people to contact the DOJ court officials 698 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,920 and the judge to encourage them to reject the plea deal, 699 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,159 and that is something that the judge today at the 700 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,440 plea hearing did address. Jeff Cernodal, father of Xanna Kernadal, 701 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,719 is not happy with the plea deal either. He spoke 702 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,840 to New York Times and said that he does not 703 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,920 support the plea deal. He wished it would require mister 704 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,960 Coberger to detail his crimes and provide answers to some 705 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:40,480 of the mysteries that have continued to hang over this case. Again, 706 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,679 we're in full agreement, he said. I do not agree 707 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,519 with this outcome and expressed my concerns before the deal 708 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:50,159 was negotiated after nearly three years of waiting and being 709 00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:52,639 told there would be a trial with evidence presented to 710 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:53,280 convict him. 711 00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:56,159 Speaker 4: I am disappointed in the prosecutor's decision. 712 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 3: Totally get it, and I totally understand the two fathers frustration. 713 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:03,960 I think there's just no way around the fact that 714 00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:05,760 if you're going to have a plea deal like this, 715 00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:10,119 it has to include a full allocution where he admits 716 00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:15,559 his crimes and answers detailed questions about how and why 717 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:19,039 this happened. But why is probably never going to make 718 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,519 sense to those of us that are not nuts. But 719 00:39:23,519 --> 00:39:26,760 why did you kill four beautiful young people and we 720 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,119 don't even think you knew them? Whatever the explanation is, 721 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,920 I actually am interested in hearing it. 722 00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 2: I know millions of other people are too. 723 00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:41,039 Speaker 3: But I think these details and things like what happened 724 00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:41,599 to the knife? 725 00:39:41,639 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 2: Where did you discard the knife? 726 00:39:43,519 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 3: By the way, I'm not sure if they'd be able 727 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,760 to recover the knife if he threw it in a 728 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,280 body of water, disposed it in the trash. There could 729 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,480 be a million places where this knife ended up. But 730 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:55,639 at least what did he do with it? Did he 731 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,239 throw it out of the car while he was driving 732 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,239 down the road? Did he toss it off for ridge, 733 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,320 into a river? Whatever it is. Law enforcement may try 734 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,239 to locate the knife, but I think at a minimum, 735 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,079 these unanswered questions should be answered to the satisfaction of 736 00:40:11,159 --> 00:40:12,800 the families and the prosecutor. 737 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:16,199 Speaker 6: We still have a lot to talk about with regard 738 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,480 to the plea hearing which took place on Wednesday, July second. 739 00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 4: We also have a lot more that. 740 00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 6: We would like to share from our listeners who weighed 741 00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:27,480 in on their thoughts on the plea deal. 742 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:29,079 Speaker 4: So we will turn. 743 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 6: This into a second episode. So we will be back 744 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,079 with more on the Brian Koburger Lee hearing and information 745 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,679 from our listeners on their thoughts and more on the 746 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,079 family perspective. From my podcast partner, Bill Thomas, Thank you 747 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:48,599 so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder, 748 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,320 We'll See You Next Time. 749 00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: Is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 750 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 751 00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:11,199 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 752 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 753 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 754 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,159 Speaker 3: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 755 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 756 00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:26,920 Murders on Facebook. 757 00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:29,679 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 758 00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:30,480 Bill Thomas. 759 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 2: Five six. 760 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.