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Good Evening. 50 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.919 It was a shattering deathbed confession by a heartbroken mother, 51 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.919 but would it solved The oldest cold case murder case 52 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:31.879 in American jurisprudence. In January nineteen ninety four, Eileen Tessey 53 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.800 told Jack McCullough's half sister, Janet Tessier, that he her 54 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.360 son kidnapped seven year old Maria Ridoff from their neighborhood 55 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.919 in Sycamore, Illinois, and killed her in December nineteen fifty seven. 56 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.000 It was a case that tore the child's family apart, 57 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:49.879 as well as dividing and terrifying the town as the days, 58 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.240 then the months, and finally the years passed with no arrest. 59 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:57.360 In two thousand and eight, the Illinois State Police reopened 60 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:59.879 the case against Jack after receiving an email from Janet 61 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:04.719 Tessier about their mother's death poot deathbed confession. After the 62 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.280 Illinois State Police interviewed Janet and learned that Jack had 63 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.960 also been accused of raping their other sister, Jean Tessier, 64 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.240 they reopened the case, but would reopen in the case 65 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.520 solve the question of who killed Maria Ridoff and was 66 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.400 McCullough the killer. In the Last Man's Standing, true crime 67 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.439 author Alan Warren writes an exacting detail about the kidnapping, murder, 68 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.680 and subsequent investigations both in nineteen fifty seven and two 69 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.639 thousand and eight that eventually led to the murder conviction 70 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.960 of Jack McCullough. But the story doesn't stop there, as 71 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.840 it delves into the years mcculluugh spent in prison and 72 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.840 the efforts to have his conviction overturned. Was McCullough the 73 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.960 brutal killer of a little girl? Or was he the 74 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.599 last man's standing when the justice system decided he needed 75 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.719 to pay for the crime? You decide. The book they 76 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.400 were featuring this evening is the Last Man Standing? Is 77 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:03.400 Jack Daniel McCullough A true story? Alan Warren, Journalist and 78 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:05.840 author Alan Warren, Welcome to the Back to the program, 79 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:07.759 and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. 80 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.439 Alan R. Warren. 81 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:13.400 Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for 82 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:14.039 asking me. 83 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:21.040 Thank you very much. Let's jump right into this. I 84 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:25.680 know that you and I both interviewed Charles Lochman about 85 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.120 his book Footsteps in the Snow in twenty fourteen, at 86 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:33.879 least I did. In twenty fourteen you had interviewed him 87 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.839 as well, And now we're doing another story here, The 88 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.680 Last Man standing about the same case, the murder and 89 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:45.000 abduction of Maria Riddiff. Tell us a little bit about 90 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:49.920 your interview with Charles Lockman and and your impression of 91 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:56.199 the story. Despite Charles Lachman's contention that this case was finally, 92 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.600 after fifty five years or fifty plus years, finally this 93 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:05.519 oldest cold case in American history finally solved. Tell us 94 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:07.879 about that interview that you had with Charles Lockman with 95 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:09.160 Footsteps in the snow. 96 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.759 Well. Charles was a nice guy to talk to. It 97 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:18.680 seemed like it was going okay. I just couldn't get 98 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:23.920 the feel that he had any evidence, that he had 99 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:28.120 anything solid. It was just all feeling, you know, and 100 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.120 and how people felt, and how he felt and what 101 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.560 the people he talked to felt. And the evidence was 102 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:40.879 really lacking, especially for putting someone away for their life, 103 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.600 you know, taking away their freedom, making it so that 104 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:51.160 you know, they're locked up forever. And I just didn't 105 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.680 I just didn't see it in the evidence. And over 106 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:59.680 an hour, he just couldn't supply it. And so I 107 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.439 ended up having a follow up interview with him, and 108 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:09.879 he had some new points counterpoints, but it was still 109 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.839 the same. He just had nothing hard. Nothing hard. 110 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.959 Now you say you remained unconvinced. You rightly remain unconvinced, 111 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:26.839 and we know why. But you say an event happened 112 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:31.439 about thirty days later involving someone involved with this case 113 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.839 message on Facebook? What was that message? Who was that person? 114 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:45.040 Yeah, it's actually yeah, Casey Porter. He's the son in law. 115 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:52.920 He married Jack's daughter. And he had heard that interview 116 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.040 on because we are in K K and W Seattle, 117 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.560 and that's actually where they're out of, just north of Seattle, 118 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.439 and he heard that interview and he contacted me on 119 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.319 Facebook and told me there was so much more to 120 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:13.519 the case than I even would know about, and and 121 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.920 that interested me, and we started talking back and forth, 122 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:23.800 and he liked how I had that, you know, the 123 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:27.560 conclusion of like, well, where's your evidence, Like what where's 124 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.759 the hard evidence, where's the where's the blood, where's the 125 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.600 like there has to be more than that to put 126 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.800 away a man for life. And he liked that attitude, 127 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:43.480 so he uh started contributing things to me and telling 128 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.319 me things about the case that I didn't know, and 129 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:49.079 I ended up meeting a lot of his family and 130 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:53.800 uh and eventually Jack, of course, and yeah, I went 131 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:58.439 from there. But that that convinced me even more about 132 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.600 just how the whole family was around him and how 133 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.360 they all supported him, and there wasn't a doubt in 134 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:07.560 any of their minds. 135 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.759 Right now, you talk about the you getting involved, I 136 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.319 mean really one of the looking at Charles Lackman and 137 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.040 his footsteps in the snow and just sensing that there 138 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.279 was something wrong. That's not normally what you do or 139 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.120 I do when we review people's books from when we're 140 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:30.959 interviewing them about their books. So I thought that was 141 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.080 quite profound that you would have that kind of God instinct. 142 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.600 I guess when do you get involved in what year 143 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.200 do you get involved in this case? Getting that information 144 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:47.600 from Casey Porter? But also when does he get released? 145 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:53.200 And so it verifies your I guess idea that this 146 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.399 person was innocent. Tell us about that timeline. 147 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:01.840 Well, yeah, because in twenty fourteen where the interviews and 148 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:07.960 so with Charles Lockman, and that's when Casey caught a 149 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.679 hold of me and started telling me things. And and 150 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:15.879 I'll tell you, at first, the first five six months 151 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:18.440 I would talk with him, but it would be it 152 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.279 would be more like humoring. I wasn't really buying into it. 153 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:28.639 It was kind of like, yeah, okay, because he wasn't 154 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:34.840 presenting me with anything anymore than what Charles Lachman did. 155 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.600 I just thought it was just about whose side you're 156 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.159 on and who you believe in and who you love 157 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:44.919 or who you don't. I wasn't getting any anything solid, 158 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.200 So that one it just kind of kept on going 159 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:53.240 for a while, and it took until about a year later, 160 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:59.840 and I ended up I'm talking to a couple of 161 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:05.600 the research people I know in Chicago, and it sounded 162 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.000 like Jack was going to get he was going to 163 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.399 come up for a stay or an overturn of his 164 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:18.120 of his conviction again. And from the rumor I had 165 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:22.200 heard was that the state attorney was behind it hundred 166 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.440 percent and was supporting it. So this was more than 167 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.320 likely going to happen. And then that made me realize that, Wow, 168 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:35.440 there's there's there's somebody in the justice system on the 169 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:42.360 other side that feels he was convict victed wrongly. And 170 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:46.559 so that that put me right back on into the 171 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:54.039 case again and dealing with Jack's family and and kind 172 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.519 of going through the motions of him getting out and 173 00:10:57.799 --> 00:10:59.480 what he was going to do, and he was going 174 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.679 to come back to Seattle and just the whole scenario, 175 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:05.279 so that kind of I got involved in more in 176 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.440 that part at that stage. And this is before and 177 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:15.240 then when he finally got out in the spring of 178 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.720 I guess it must have been sixteen yea and went 179 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:27.480 back to Seattle. North of Seattle, I had talked to him. 180 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:31.519 I had talked to Casey and a few other family members, 181 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:34.799 and they were quite comfortable with me if I wanted 182 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.080 to write the story about Jack and the story about 183 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.879 what had happened, and I was kind of so so 184 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:45.639 on it. I really wanted to, but I wanted to 185 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:49.159 know the truth. I had to know everything as it was. 186 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.879 What was the one stipulation he had for you? I mean, 187 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.000 we're running a little bit ahead, but in connection to this, 188 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:03.120 what was the one stipulation he had for you on 189 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:04.519 condition of writing this book? 190 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.159 Well, he was really it was no dirt. I want 191 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.879 no dirt. I want nothing but the truth and no dirt. 192 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:19.240 He said that to me so many times. He didn't 193 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:22.399 want any of the Uh. Because you've read the book, 194 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.960 it's very complex and it's very there's a lot of 195 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.399 parts to the story that are not not pretty. And 196 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.159 at this point. I wasn't. I wasn't sure exactly why. 197 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:38.600 At first, I was thinking, well, that's because you're guilty 198 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.600 of some of these things that you're accused of, and 199 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.480 and that's what you mean by no dirt. But after 200 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.320 a while I realized he was still protecting his sister. 201 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.360 He was still protecting his little sister right till the 202 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.039 day she died, which was just recently. And so, you know, 203 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.200 I learned a lot this case. I learned so much 204 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.840 about people, how they behave, how they interact to each other, 205 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:12.240 and how a family that's really disconnected and going through 206 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.240 a lot of trouble, how these things get taken way 207 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:23.279 out of proportion and it you know, everybody, everybody suffers, 208 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:25.919 and it just it ruins the whole, the whole family, 209 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:30.240 and you know, you know, so he really did not 210 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:36.480 want things about his sister primarily, and other things not 211 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.200 talked about. He did not want dirt or you know, basically, 212 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.279 he didn't want trashy sort of journalism coming out of it. 213 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:49.519 He wanted what happened, and his primary concern was not 214 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:54.519 about him. His primary concern was people have to know 215 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.639 that this can happen to you, anybody in the country 216 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.120 can be doing nothing and you can end up in 217 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.200 jail and go through a whole life like what he 218 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:10.960 did and his family did for nothing. It can happen. 219 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.519 There's just don't think it can't happen to you. And 220 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.200 that was something he talked about every single time I 221 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.480 talked to him. He mentioned the no dirt and how 222 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.279 this can happen to anybody over and over again. 223 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:30.320 Well, let's get to this incredible story, how it could 224 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.519 happen to anyone. But this is not a story that 225 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.440 happens to everyone at all because of the twists and 226 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.799 turns in this. I know that's a cliche, but there 227 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.360 are some incredible ones in this to have the coldest 228 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:46.639 case in American history. And here's why. Let's go back 229 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.519 for those people that don't know this or can't remember 230 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:53.279 the interview from twenty fourteen, in particulars, which would be 231 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:58.720 most everyone, Let's talk about the particulars in winter for 232 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:04.440 Snowfall nineteen fifty seven, and first introduce a little bit 233 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:09.720 about sycamore set the stage for what happens with Kathy 234 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.720 and her young friend eight years old. Personal take us 235 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:15.279 back to nineteen fifty seven. 236 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.639 You know it was, it was very It was very family, family, 237 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.000 prime America. You know, at nineteen fifty seven, things were 238 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:34.919 fairly peaceful. People were in a pretty festive mood, of course, 239 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:40.559 being December, and society was really organized. After the war. 240 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:46.960 Things were settling down. People were starting to develop families, jobs, lifestyles, 241 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.840 you know, just a better way of life after the war. 242 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:55.559 And Sycamore is a small town on the outside of 243 00:15:55.759 --> 00:16:01.320 Chicago quite a ways actually, but it's a small town, 244 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.279 fifteen hundred it was to start. By the time they 245 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:11.480 were there, I believe there was about seven thousand population, 246 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:20.799 so pretty small town. And it started. It all started 247 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:28.039 in the December of fifty seven. Two girlfriends, Maria Riddle 248 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.320 and her best friend who was a year older than 249 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:37.639 her that lived down the road. Her name was Kathy Siegmund. 250 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.559 They were so excited because this was going to be 251 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:45.320 the first day of snow and they wanted to go 252 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.960 outside and play. So they ran all the way home 253 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:54.600 and wolfed down their dinner basically to get out of 254 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.279 the house as soon as they could and get out 255 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:00.279 in the snow and play. And you know, it was 256 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.200 an innocent time, so you wouldn't think anything of it. 257 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.160 We all did it. I'm not quite that old, but 258 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.519 just ten years later, and that would not be an 259 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:15.519 unusual thing for me to have done. You know. It's 260 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.160 just what people did. And you didn't have to have 261 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.400 people watch, you know, your parents didn't have to come 262 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.920 with you or anything. You could just run up and 263 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.079 down the road or go to your neighbors and it 264 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:30.000 was fairly free. We weren't in the same mental condition 265 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:34.559 as we are now. So they went out and they 266 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.400 were having a good time. In general. They were playing 267 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:44.240 different games. One of them was to avoid being hit 268 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.400 by this by the spotlight the car light, the headlights 269 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.359 i should say, of a car when they were jumping 270 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.960 in between the roads and just just silly little kid 271 00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:01.599 games and having a good time. So then a long 272 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:07.000 come a man and it was around six thirty. There's 273 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.759 different times in there, and it's very I'm just gonna 274 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:15.200 throw it out at six thirty pm, and he introduced 275 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.319 himself as Johnny, and he was a really nice guy. 276 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:23.160 What are you girls doing, and blah blah blah and 277 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.000 all that. She guys want to go for a piggyback ride, 278 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.119 and so they were lock all excited, and Kathy didn't 279 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.319 want to go, so you know, little Maria did. And 280 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:37.839 they went up and down and it was a lot 281 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:43.599 of fun and come back and exciting. And then Kathy 282 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.160 still wouldn't go, and they were talking away, and then 283 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.839 the guy he wanted he wanted to know if they 284 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.400 liked dolls, and so Kathy piped up and said, yeah, 285 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.799 I have my favorite doll. I'll go get him, get 286 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.920 her for you. And she ran to her house, got 287 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.480 the doll, come back and both Maria and this Johnny 288 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:09.359 were gone. So that's you know, she went back to 289 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.920 Maria's house and there was nobody there. She went back 290 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:18.200 home and she looked around and she couldn't find Maria anywhere. 291 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.799 So then back to Maria's house and then eventually the 292 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:27.640 Riddolphs got up and started searching and and everyone started looking. 293 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:32.920 Now it was a bit of a slow start at 294 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:38.440 people looking. Maria had a reputation. She did run away 295 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:42.359 a few other times before, and not run away to 296 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.960 get away from the home, but she would go wondering 297 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.720 and just do things and you know, go to different 298 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:55.039 parks and wander and play by herself and then come home. 299 00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:00.759 And so there was kind of a mixed feeling about 300 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:05.279 is she being kidnapped or is she just wandering around? 301 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.200 So that's what took them a little bit of time 302 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:13.759 before they actually decided to get the cops involved. So 303 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:20.200 that was kind of the setup of what happened that night. 304 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.920 Now talk about the description, because of course right away 305 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:34.559 they begin a search, but obviously they know that Kathy 306 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.160 is the person, even though she's nine years old. She's 307 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.240 the person that got a really good look at this guy. 308 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.160 So what is the description of this young man that 309 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.559 police have from that and how else do they proceed 310 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.400 in terms of other than the search and the canvas. 311 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.559 What else do they do? Initially? 312 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.240 Yeah, well, their main at first was canvassing and talking 313 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.000 to the neighbors and then getting people out hunting and 314 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:04.039 and trying to get a a witness. And that was 315 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.319 a bit slow as well, because it was almost like 316 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:12.240 they didn't really believe anything happened evil. I think a 317 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.359 lot of their minds is she just took off and 318 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.279 it wasn't. Really The first real good identification that Kathy 319 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.799 the Friend gave was really to the FBI, which was 320 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.720 set up the next night, not that night, but the 321 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.640 ones she give to the police were way different with 322 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:36.880 the part of teeth and the and the hair and 323 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.720 the size of them, and the age of of who 324 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:47.400 she said did it was complete opposite of you know, Jack, 325 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:53.160 Jack McCulloch, who was later tried for the case. So 326 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.599 but then it changed three times, and I included the 327 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.480 whole FBI report because then you can see actually how 328 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:07.119 she described him even differently, and different people that I 329 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.519 had talked to in and around the family of the 330 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:15.200 group said that Kathy was trying to find the person 331 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:20.400 so badly that she was taking information from all of 332 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:25.960 her friends, cops, everybody around her would be saying, are 333 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.960 you sure he wasn't like this? Didn't he have this? 334 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.559 But he couldn't have been this if he didn't have that. 335 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.160 Like they all had ideas, and they were all throwing 336 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.680 it at her. And she would keep on adding and 337 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:43.720 minusing parts of her identification to different police groups. Because 338 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.279 she was dealing with the Sycamore Police, the Illinois State Police, 339 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.160 as well as the Sheriff's office and the FBI. 340 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:57.240 There was no drawing, sorry, there was no composite drawing 341 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.000 mate at that time. 342 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.319 No I had. Yeah, the FBI did make one. They 343 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.599 were the only ones that did. And and we do 344 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:09.599 have a copy of it. Now. The problem with that 345 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.799 is it was sealed in the FBI files when they 346 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:17.119 found Maria's body later, and it was within the state 347 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.640 of Illinois. 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Where everybody lost the terms 366 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:16.880 conditions eighteen plus. 367 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.640 Now let's go back to footsteps in the snow, because 368 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:25.880 there's a reason why Lachmann titled it footsteps in the snow. 369 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.839 So part of this investigation is with the people were 370 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:33.240 searching for her that very night and then onwards in 371 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.960 the following couple of days. So let's talk about the 372 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.400 footsteps in the snow and what if anything people in 373 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:42.759 that search and police found in that search. 374 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:47.039 You know, I. 375 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.359 You know, the footsteps in the snow when when they 376 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.200 were out you mean, when they were out investigating kind 377 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.519 of like everybody was searching all the neighbors, and it 378 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.519 there been traces of snow and in some locations, like 379 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.400 on that garage, on the back of the garage, it 380 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.599 looked like there was prince of a small girl and 381 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.240 a man and going one way and then coming back 382 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.839 there was no more small footprints as if someone was 383 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:23.400 carrying someone right and and so that was one indication, 384 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.960 and then and then her doll and stuff like that. 385 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:36.000 I think that everything, well, I'm not sure. I think 386 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:39.279 everything in that case, as far as what Lachman wrote 387 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:43.160 was very circumstantial. Like I'm not sure if there's something 388 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:45.480 that stuck out to you when you interviewed them that 389 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.880 made you think there was something important in that. 390 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.279 I don't think so. I think that it's just mysterious, 391 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:56.599 and I just chalked it up to, you know, unknown 392 00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.039 and a lot of a lot of books have facts 393 00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:01.079 that you know, you could speculate all you want, but 394 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.839 sometimes there's no connection between those things that what you 395 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.960 write in the book and what has been written before 396 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.880 is that there was the footsteps that could indicate, but 397 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.640 again there was no I understand what you're saying. There 398 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:16.880 was no verification. He didn't take it any step further, 399 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:20.400 just said, well it looked like, well, it look like 400 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.880 but did you check the footprint of this perpetrator, did 401 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:27.960