Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 5: Please welcome to the stage.
Speaker 6: Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly victims advocates, writers, and the
co host of the Mind over Murder podcast. They are
joined by their moderator and crime con favorite Cheryl McCollum
and Atlanta based CSI and host of this own seven podcast.
Speaker 7: Let's Do This, Baby. Yeah, I'll be keeping this. Thank you.
Speaker 8: Oh are these souvenir pillows?
Speaker 7: Yes, I've never seen them. Hey, let's get something out
of the way. Real quick.
Speaker 9: For thirty seven years, Bill Thomas has fault for his sister.
Speaker 8: Yep, which makes me old.
Speaker 7: Seriously, thirty seven years.
Speaker 9: I just find that not only heartwarming but just so impressive.
Speaker 7: And I'm going to tell you something else.
Speaker 9: When it's your family and you're fighting for justice and
you're hitting the streets every day, that is amazing. But
when you can find a sidekick that is just as
devoted and works just as hard like Kristen, I don't
know what to say about her except just extraordinary human being.
Speaker 7: So I just wanted to get that out.
Speaker 4: Of the way.
Speaker 9: Because we were here at crime Con last year and
somebody was like, oh, I know who that is.
Speaker 7: That's I don't want to say what they said.
Speaker 9: I'm not going to repeat it, but they lessened what
she does and what she and Bill do together. So
I just wanted to say out loud, this is a partnership.
They are both investigators, they are both podcasters, they both
have such a hand and why we are here today,
So let's talk about while we're here today, let's talk
about and we don't always get to say this.
Speaker 7: From this stage, so I'm will stand up and say it.
Speaker 9: We got a break in the case, and it's in
large part because of what these two were doing. I'm
not gonna take up any more time because just let
you know, I could. I could talk about Bill and
Christen in a long time.
Speaker 7: But I even have notes.
Speaker 9: Because I don't know if y'all know this, but Krista
Dilley is a professional educatory and she has sent me
a few notes.
Speaker 7: Had a flashback from high.
Speaker 9: School, I would get one email. Here's the PowerPoint review it. Please,
here are some side notes. Please review and get back
to me. Here are the questions that I would like
for you to ask. I'm so BOSSI not bossy, but honey,
we're gonna stay on track and we're gonna stay on point.
Speaker 7: Is that fine? And I love her for it. So
if it's all right with y'all, I'm just gonna kick
this off. You go ahead. That gravy, all right right ahead.
Speaker 9: On January eighth, twenty twenty four, the FBI in the
Virginia State Police held a joint press conference in Norfolk, Virginia,
announcing the identity of the perpetrator of the nineteen eighty
seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Noban, one of
the four double homicides in the group collectively known as
the Colonial Parkway Murders. The perpetrator, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior,
was a commercial waterman deceased since twenty seventeen, and had
been linked to three of the victims via DNA. Today,
we're going to take you all inside the explosive and
dramatic developments in the Colonial Parkway murders and this discovery
of a new serial killer in tide Water, Virginia, a
killer who may have been hunting and killing for as
long as forty years. I'm Cheryl Matt McCollum, the host
of z Own seven, an active CSI, and I am
joined here by Kristin Dilley, a podcaster, a teacher, a writer,
and a victim's advocate, along with Bill Thomas, the brother
of Kathy Thomas, one of the first victims of the
cl Oil Parkway murder, also a podcaster and writer and
TV personality. And I could not be in better company.
And I thank you both for allowing me to be here.
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you, Matt, thank you.
Speaker 9: Why don't the two of you just start by telling
us a little bit about who you are and your
podcast and how that came.
Speaker 8: To be Okay, you want to go first. Sure.
Speaker 3: So I started working with Bill in two thy sixteen
when I got into my head to write a book
about his sister's case.
Speaker 8: We were both teenagers at that point, maybe you were.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I think you're slightly older than me.
Oh god, yes, do we want to pull the age card?
Speaker 8: No? No, let's just keep going. You were doing something great.
Speaker 7: I wasn't.
Speaker 3: Then you interrupted me.
Speaker 8: But that's all right, So what else is new? Absolutely,
I'll be quiet now.
Speaker 3: So I reached out to Bill because I wanted to
book about his sister's case, and thus began the partnership
that continues to this day. We started our podcast, Mind
Over Murder in twenty twenty. It was pre pandemic. Please
note we were not a pandemic podcast, right. We were
before the pandemic.
Speaker 7: And that really came.
Speaker 3: About because Bill kepbeen asked to guest on podcast after
podcast and I said, Hey, Bud, when are you going
to start your own podcast?
Speaker 7: And you said.
Speaker 2: I said, I'll do a podcast if you'll do a podcast.
Speaker 8: Because I figured.
Speaker 2: The last thing the world needs is another white guy
have a certain age. That would be me talking about
whatever true crime or cars or sports or cooking or
you name, whatever your interest might be.
Speaker 8: I thought, man, that's going to be really boring.
Speaker 2: But I thought, if we could get a different perspective
and have a woman's point of view. Kristen grew up
in Williams, Virginia, where the Colonial Parkway murders are centered.
I've never lived in Virginia, and so she had actually
grown up with the Colonial Parkway murders on some levels
back when she was a teenager. And interestingly, even though
we come at this from each from our own perspective
and Kristen's own life, she was also touched by violence
in that a friend's mother was brutally murdered, which is
how she got into the true crime space, much in
the same way that I got into true crime because
my sister Kathy's unfortunate homicide. But I thought having the
two of us mix it up and come at our
stories from two different points of view would be really
good and has been, interestingly, although where I'm significantly older,
if you haven't figured that out already, and we grew
up in different parts of the country, and we come
at this thing from our two differing backgrounds.
Speaker 8: We actually rarely disagree, although we.
Speaker 2: Have a commitment with the podcast that if Kristin thinks
I'm wrong or vice versa, we'll both weigh in. But
the truth is we almost always arrive at the same place,
and sometimes Kristin will say.
Speaker 8: A lot I've been thinking.
Speaker 2: And I'll think, Wow, that's a really good idea. I
don't know why I didn't think of that, but it's
been a really effective partnership.
Speaker 3: I think so too. And here's too many more years
of doing Mind Ever Murder together.
Speaker 2: Well and moving the Colonial Parkway murders and lots of
other cases forward.
Speaker 9: Y'all have that chemistry that you just can't predict and
you certainly can't force it.
Speaker 7: It just happens. But what really comes through for me
is the friendship. Yeah, it's very clear.
Speaker 9: For anybody that maybe doesn't really know the outline of
Colonial Parkway murders, can you just give a basic understanding.
Speaker 8: You want to do this one, you want me to?
Speaker 3: Why don't you go ahead because it's your sister's case.
Speaker 2: We'll try to go through really quickly. The biggest challenge
for us in the Colonial Parkway murders is there's all
these rabbit holes you can go down. We'll try to
avoid the rabbit holes and just give you the quick
overview if you're not familiar with the case.
Speaker 8: So with the Colonial.
Speaker 2: Parkway murders, what you have are four double homicides of couples.
Sometimes we say four years, but it's really three nineteen
eighty six to nineteen eighty nine. It's approximately one couple
of year for three years in a row, starting with
my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, who
were brutally murdered in October nineteen eighty six. A year later,
a second couple, David Nobling and Robin Edwards, were murdered
under somewhat similar circumstances out about a half an hour away.
So now we're going from October eighty six September nineteen
eighty seven. Then the following spring a young couple go
missing on a first date. Robin Edwards and Dave I'm sorry,
David stop built, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley disappear on
a first date. They're actually never found to this date.
Technically they're missing persons, but it's been thirty six years.
Speaker 8: I don't think they're walking through the door tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Sadly, and then finally a fourth couple is killed. Daniel
Lower and Anna Maria Phelps were killed and they went
missing over Labor Day weekend nineteen eighty nine, and then
their bodies are found about six weeks later in a
hunt club. Now one quick thing with the Colonial Parkway murders. Interestingly,
the only serious couple is actually the lesbian couple My
sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski. I've been seeing
each other for about six months or so at the
time of their deaths, and we actually hadn't met Becky yet.
We were supposed to meet her that Thanksgiving, and of
course they died in October.
Speaker 8: The other couples are almost.
Speaker 2: Somewhere between on a first date and traveling companions. For
Robin Edwards and David Nobling they met that day. For
Keith Calling Cassandra Haley, they were literally on a first date.
I went to a college party and disappeared thereafter. And
Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower. Anna's actually dating his
brother Clint, and so they're traveling together down to Virginia Beach,
and time permitting, we'll get into more detail, but we
say couples a lot, but we're actually not necessarily talking
about serious couples.
Speaker 8: We're actually talking about people that.
Speaker 2: Kind of almost don't know each other very well.
Speaker 7: Like many of you.
Speaker 9: I feel invested in this case because Bill and I
when we first met, and y'all, I've worked with hundreds
of families, but let me.
Speaker 7: Tell you about Bill Thomas.
Speaker 9: We're talking on the phone and I said, you don't
know me, but I think there might be a forensic
thing we can.
Speaker 7: Try here on your sister's case.
Speaker 9: So I mentioned the m vat if y'all are premier
with Jerry Bradley.
Speaker 7: He's here. He said, I don't know what that is?
What is it? So I told him very briefly, y'all.
Speaker 9: The next thing I know, I see on Facebook where
Bill flew to another state to meet with Jared to
get this done, and I'm like, this is what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 7: He is a man of action.
Speaker 9: It's beyond anything I've ever seen a family member do
quickly and just so controlled about it. And then the
events of January eighth, which I would like for y'all
to talk about.
Speaker 7: I get a text.
Speaker 9: While I'm at work from you, and I'm like, we
know she's teaching. I know she's busy, so I think
this must be something. When I look down and saw
there's been a break, it was almost more than I
could take. So I want y'all to talk about that
day because I talked the boat. I talked to you,
yes first, and just the emotion that I could hear
it also failed. But y'all take it from there, honey.
January eighth, it was a heck of a day for sure.
Speaker 3: So on January eighth, the Virginia State Police and the
FBI held a joint press conference, and during that presser,
they announced that Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior, who was sixty
three years old of Lancaster, Virginia, had been connected to
the Robin Edwards and David Knobline murders via DNA, and
this was huge. We also received new information about a
victim that we were totally unfamiliar with, a woman by
the name of Teresa Howell. At the same time, we
learned that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had died in his
home in twenty seventeen, so there was no arrest made,
but for us, it was a very big deal because
this is the first significant case break over the thirty
seven years that Bill and his family and the other
families have been involved in this case. So this was massive,
and it's also the first time that a single homicide
victim was connected to the couples in the Colonial Parkway murders.
And so suddenly we're in a whole new world of
information that we're getting. Not only do we have a
suspect and he's been linked to be a DNA, but
maybe this isn't as cut and dried in terms of
couples killings as we had originally thought. But Bill, you
had a very different experience than I did on January eighth,
because you weren't watching the presser. Would you like to
tell the good folks out there what you were doing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is interesting. Let's step back for one second.
About a year ago, we got a call with a tip,
and we've developed a lot of contacts in law enforce
and a lot of a lot of different places, and
we've got to call that the Virginia Department of Forensic
Sciences had applied for and received a SAKI grant. If
you're not familiar sexual Assault Kit Initiative grant, this is
federal money that goes to state and local law enforcement
to test untested rape kits and other evidence. It's an
incredible program. I urge everyone if to ask their law
enforcement agencies, have you applied for a SAKI grant if
there's any talk And there was a lot of talk
in our case about we don't have the funding to
conduct this forensic test or that forensic test. So we
got a call that the Virginia authorities had requested for
and received a SAKI grant, and that SAKI grant led
directly to this big step that Kristen's talking about. In
the Colonial Parkway murders, they test the rape kit from
fourteen year old Robin Edwards and that led directly to
them identifying Wilmer. And we notice how we keep saying
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One thing we feel really bad
about is there is an Alan Wade Wilmer junior, his
son who's a grown man now. So we try to
be very specific. We were talking about senior here, but
that testing of that evidence, which was very badly degraded.
It was over thirty six years old. It been tested
numerous times over the years, and as Matt can tell you,
certain types of DNA testing consume the evidence, and it
was also evidence that was exposed to seawater, so it's
a complicated and difficult sample. The first lab that did
the testing was unsuccessful, but the good news is.
Speaker 8: They didn't use any of the DNA.
Speaker 2: To make this determination. So a second lab was then
asked to do testing. I think I know who it is,
but I don't want to credit the wrong lab, so
we'll leave their name out of it. But it's a
highly respected lab who's done other work for us in
the Colonial Parkway murders, and they were able to get
a profile that then led directly, we believe, to the
identification of the killer of Teresa Spa Howell, who was
the name that Kristin was talking about.
Speaker 8: The person we were not familiar.
Speaker 9: With because right before they named her, y'all had never
even heard her name.
Speaker 8: Nope, No.
Speaker 2: Now, our contacts in the media had told us several
months prior to the press conference that there have been
a development in our case, and they actually had identified
for us the suspect, his brother who's also sometimes mentioned
in connection with this case, and Teresa Howell's name, which
was brand new to us. So we knew about this
in October twenty twenty three, and then the press conference
came on January eighth. Yes, we didn't get into why
I was tied up.
Speaker 3: I think we should. I think it's I think it's
a fascinating look into what all has been going on
in this case with regard to a certain federal law
enforcement agency that we're not going to name.
Speaker 8: Sure we are.
Speaker 7: I will you go ahead and throw them under the bus.
Speaker 2: Then he's cool, Okay, happy to and hello to our
friends from the Federal Bureau Investigation.
Speaker 8: Listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2: By the way, we know this for a fact because
they've even contacted us and asked us to make corrections,
which we're always happy to do. And now the Virginia
State Police also listen, so it's fascinating. So we appreciate
the fact that they listen.
Speaker 8: Then they're gonna watch this thing too.
Speaker 2: If you are killed, if you were killed inside a
national park, it's an FBI case since day one. Now,
remember my family and I've been dealing with the FBI
for thirty seven years. Sometimes there are frustrating moments. This
was one of them. Our agent, who I've been working
with for the last decade, contacted me to set at
seven thirty in the morning to set up a call
that afternoon when it was a Monday.
Speaker 8: If I'm not it was Monday for one thirty pm.
Speaker 2: Having worked with this agent for a decade and I
really liked this agent, she doesn't usually contacted me six
hours in advance to say, Hey, Bill, can we talk
at one thirty pm?
Speaker 8: Today? She usually calls.
Speaker 2: Me or texts me and asks me to call her,
and probably figured this out. This is a case is
very important to me. So usually I'm on the phone
with her within five minutes if I can get away,
and my long suffering life partner, Pamela, who it was
absolutely wonderful. I can't tell you how many times I've
walked out of dinners, lunches, meetings, you name it to
take a call from our FBI agent. But so when
she called and said she wanted to talk at one thirty,
I thought this is odd. And then.
Speaker 8: Over the course of that morning.
Speaker 2: Kristen reached out to me and she said that press
conference we've been waiting for, it's happening, and it's happening today,
and I said, oh, okay. Short A while later, Kristin
comes back and says, looks like it's going to be
at one thirty pm. So I texted our agent back
and I said, is it your intention that we're going
to watch this press conference together?
Speaker 8: And she said no, and I said, that's odd.
Speaker 2: So at one thirty pm, when the rest of the
world was watching the press conference, I was on the
phone with our FBI agent. Now those of you that
know me or listen to Mind over Murder know that
I tend to be pretty direct. This was done deliberately
so that I couldn't watch the press conference in real time.
As you can imagine, while I'm talking to our agent,
I got the iPhone set up on the desk. There
the top third of the or so of the screen
is where the texts are coming in. So I'm talking
to our agent, whom I really like, and I'm learning
a lot. We talk for two hours and fifteen minutes,
which is long, but by the top of my screen
is just blowing up. Bill, are you following this press conference?
Why aren't you commenting on social media or whatever? And
the texts start coming in faster and faster. Basically they're saying,
built where the hell are you? Your sister's case is
being discussed at a national level, and you're saying nothing.
You've gone radio silent, and then of course things explode.
Speaker 8: After I get.
Speaker 2: Off the phone with the FBI two hours and fifteen
minutes later, I literally wasn't able to watch the press
conference until ten o'clock that night, when things finally began
to calm down. And then I knew why the FBI
didn't want me to watch the press conference, because I
wasn't going to be happy. I was thrilled for the
two families, and this new family that we hadn't heard about,
the Howells. We were thrilled about this news, but I
quickly realized there's a lot of very important information that's
not being said publicly about this significant development, the Colonial
Parkway murders. First of all, this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
was also a suspect in the disappear so Keith call
and Cassandra Haley. Remember we went through those cases quickly.
They've linked him via DNA to incident number three, but
he actually was the leading suspect in incident number two,
the disappearance of Keith and Sandy. And even at the
press conference, journalists asked, can you say when this man
first moved on to your radar.
Speaker 8: And this is important.
Speaker 2: They refused to answer the question YEP twice, two different
journalists who know this case said can you say, and
they said the answer was no. And so when your
law enforcement agencies aren't being straight, you know you have
a problem. Because as soon as I had a chance
to watch the press conference at ten o'clock that night,
I realized, this guy is the guy I heard about
in nineteen eighty eight. This guy was under arrested by
the FBI in eighty eight and they let him go,
and that's why they didn't want to talk about this
at the presser.
Speaker 7: Now, Bill, I have a question.
Speaker 9: First of all, I didn't know the FBI was listening,
So I'm Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2: I would have known that voice anywhere else.
Speaker 9: I want a few more questions, Jackie cut Kristen's Mike, Okay.
Speaker 8: You're in trouble now.
Speaker 9: But why do you think that the local and state
and federal law enforcement turned a blind eye to this guy? Like,
what is your gut feeling about that?
Speaker 2: I want to be fair if we're talking about back
in eighty eight, this is real important for everybody to understand.
Speaker 8: This is before DNA.
Speaker 2: Now, remember Wilmer's identified all these years later via DNA,
so we have tools now that we didn't back then,
and they brought him in. He was at the absolute
top of the list. They referred to him as suspect
number one, but he passed a polygraph once. They gave
him a second one and the results were inconclusive. We've
heard unconfirmed rumors that there may be a second man
who was also given a polygraph. The agents, the case agents,
whom my late.
Speaker 8: Father used to talk to frequently.
Speaker 2: These were names we all knew around the dining room table,
and as you can probably imagine, of the four kids
in the family, I was the one that took the
greatest amount of interest in Kathy's case. So I remember
having a lot of private conversations with my dad. But
we knew that there was a waterman who was seriously
looked at. We were told it was two terman actually
in nineteen eighty eight, so I want to be fair.
At the same time, the case agents were rock solid
certain they had identified the right guy, but I think
this is one of those cases where they couldn't prove it.
Speaker 3: They even told the families during a private family meeting,
we are ninety nine percent sure this is the guy.
We are ninety eight percent sure this is the guy.
And I want to make sure that we don't move
too fast past the point that I think is most
important and that we don't want to get lost, which
is the fact that after this guy was let go
in nineteen eighty eight, he murdered Teresa Howell. Teresa Howell
is dead because the FBI polygraphed him and cleared him
and let him go. TERSA how would not be dead otherwise.
Speaker 2: And this is where we get in to the discomfort
of the FBI. And then there's all this weirdness that's
going on in the background of this case now, where
they've told dozens of people don't talk to Bill Thomas,
and of course most of those people their first thought
is who the heck is Bill Thomas.
Speaker 8: And then when they find out who I am and
who we are, they end.
Speaker 2: Up they listen to Mine over Murder and they learn
more about the case, and then these people call me,
and so all these people are coming out of the
woodwork and guess in a good way with more information,
and of course we're trying desperately to steer those people
back towards law enforcement. But this is where I think
law enforcement makes a tremendous mistake by playing all these
stupid reindeer games like don't talk to Bill Thomas. Look,
I get it, I have a big mouth, and I
know I'm a bit of a handful, but I'm trying
to figure out who killed my sister. But telling people
don't talk to Bill Thomas, all it makes them to
do is think I.
Speaker 8: Got to track this guy down.
Speaker 2: And I told the FBI the occasional lapses into profanity.
My mom would not be very proud of me. I
told them as recently as a few weeks ago. You
guys are fing this case up beyond all measure. And
by the way, telling everybody in this case don't talk
to Bill Thomas is completely not working. I have actually
started now. You know how we all get bothered by
spam calls.
Speaker 8: It's like a lot of people I stopped.
Speaker 2: Answering my phone if it's a number I don't recognize.
New policy. If you're from Virginia and you call, I'm
going to talk to you. And a lot of these
folks are saying very tentatively at first, I am someones
you don't know me have information and in most examples,
I'm like, I'm very happy to hear from you and actually.
Speaker 8: Do know who you are.
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. Will be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just
wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme
effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to
help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder
and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.
We'd love it if you could support us in any
way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to
whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will
be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes
and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for
your support. Now back to Mind over Murder.
Speaker 9: But listen, we're five months in now. Yeah, what questions
do you still have about Wilmer?
Speaker 8: If you want to fire away.
Speaker 3: We have so much that we want to know about Wilmer,
and I want to make sure that we focus not
only on victimology to but also the issues that you
were talking about, which is how was he allowed after
a year, given that law enforcement knew he was harassing
couples on the Colonial Parkway. How was this guy allowed
to continue going on doing what he was doing? But
is so many things that we want to know. How
did he actually choose his victims in the first place?
Is this random? Or is he stalking them? How did
he approach his victims? One of the things that you'll
notice if you come by our booth is we are
handing out postcards with all of this information about Alan
Wade Wilmer, Sr. And it includes some photos of his
very distinctive truck with a Vanity license plate to the
state of Virginia. We're big on those and his vote
that Jenny Wade. We would really like to know how
did he approach his victims? Was he approaching on foot?
Was he approaching in the truck? Was he approaching in
his boat? We want to know what locations was Wilmer
frequenting when he was visiting our area because he did
not live in Tidewater. He lived in Lancaster County and
he was coming down here to do work as a waterman.
So what areas was he frequenting? Was he frequently off
the Colonial Parkway, Was he up in Middlesex, was.
Speaker 8: He at Hampton?
Speaker 3: Where was he We're very curious about the behavior that
he exhibited to his family and friends. Did anybody have
an inkling that this was going on? And then, of
course we really do want to know exactly what you've
been curious about, which is why was he allowed to
go free even after passing this polygraph? If he was
a prime suspect in Keith call In Sandy Haley's disappearances,
that is just inexplicable to both of us. There's a
lot to unpack there. And then there is the potential
that he might be involved in other low cold cases.
And despite the fact that the two of us say
we are not investigators, we do a certain amount of
digging in our copious amounts. And there are a number
of local cold cases that I think Wilmer might be
potentially connected to, and those are things that we are exploring.
I had forty years, he's had forty years that he
could be doing this for. And we have a lot
of cold cases in Virginia.
Speaker 9: And like when we talked, he had more than one vehicle,
more than one way.
Speaker 7: To stalk people.
Speaker 9: He had a truck, he had a business that would
allow him to go here and there. He also had
a boat, so he could literally see down the Colonial Parkway,
either from the roadway or the waterway. So it's an
extraordinary to me vantage point when you're stalking people, no
question about it.
Speaker 2: And there are dozens of reports of someone matching Wilmer's
description driving this very distinctive truck that Kristen was talking about, yep,
approaching them like a po police officer would, demanding driver's licenses,
but interestingly not wearing a cop uniform, but something more
like what a mechanic or a waterman would wear. But
he'd come up and blitz attack them, banging on the window,
demanding driver's licenses, interestingly never asking for registrations, which a
real cop would ask for. And what I can't figure
out is the FBIS told me this over the years,
they had.
Speaker 8: Dozens and dozens of reports.
Speaker 2: Why was the FBI and the National Park Service never
able to put together the fact that this is all
the same guy. These couples coming forward and saying we're parked,
we're making out, and all of a sudden there's this short, stocky,
very beefy guy, only five to five pounding on the window,
demanding driver's licenses, telling us we're in the wrong place,
or that we're not supposed to be there, like a
cop would or a National Park Service ranger would.
Speaker 10: It.
Speaker 8: Why didn't they ever revisit.
Speaker 2: Him after they gave him the polygraph back in eighty eight?
Speaker 8: He was a really righteous suspect.
Speaker 2: This guy checked so many boxes in the Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 8: It's scary.
Speaker 7: I need a polygraph. That could be a whole another session.
Speaker 9: But the reality is, depending on what you're asked, in
the order you're asked it, it could change whether or
not you could pass a polygraph. So again, if he's
just asked, were you here at this time? And if
he wasn't, he could pass that question. So what would
y'all like to see from law enforcement?
Speaker 7: Now? What would you like to see them do it?
Speaker 2: From my point of view, the lack of transparency is
just appalling.
Speaker 8: They would have been so much better off.
Speaker 2: And I did marketing and communications for thirty years. I'm
not a law enforcement person and we're not investigators, as
Kristen said, but they would have been better off back
on January eighth, if they had said, we questioned this
guy in nineteen eighty eight, and we didn't have DNA
back then, and he passed a polygraph exam. I think
they would have been better off if they just sucked
it up and.
Speaker 8: Took their lumps.
Speaker 2: We understand that a case like this has got problems
and complications that have occurred. It shouldn't be required that
Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas and local and extremely well
informed people from the media and the press, that we're
suddenly saying, you're skipping over some really important details here, folks, yep,
and that actually, and this saddens me to say this, because,
believe it or not, I see myself as a supporter
of law enforcement.
Speaker 8: I want to help, we want to help, yes.
Speaker 2: But when they failed to deal with things in a
straightforward manner, good, bad, and indifferent, they're building distrust.
Speaker 8: One of the.
Speaker 2: Things we just did two live podcast events in Virginia,
both of which sold out immediately and were very successful.
We got a lot of support, which we very much appreciated.
But one of the things people said at these live
podcast events we presented on the case, then we took
an hour of questions.
Speaker 8: At the end of each session.
Speaker 2: People said to us Kristen and Bill, you're the only
people that are answering questions honestly about the Colonial Parkway murders.
I don't know how the heck two podcasters and one
of whom was the brother of one of the victims.
I don't know how it falls to us, but people
are saying, no one from law enforcement will answer these
questions honestly.
Speaker 7: Again, that give you another session.
Speaker 9: Thanks Nancy, You're welcome, Nancy Grace, come see meet podcast everybody.
Because I think social media is a powerful thing. And
I will just say this and not to change anything
that you just said, but I think there is power
in hearing from Kathy's brother and in a way that
law enforcement couldn't do it. I can talk about my
sisters like nobody else, and I think that, to me
is what draws people to you. And then when we
hear from your friend and your partner in every sense
of the word in this investigation, and y'all keep saying
you're not investigators to make a point, but I am, and.
Speaker 7: I will tell you, yes, you are.
Speaker 8: You are.
Speaker 9: So when you talk about social media and that powerful presence,
there are pages that the families have put up and
y'all have championed, so let them know how to find
those pages too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a lot of social media pages regards
the case. We have Colonial Parkway Murders, which is all
of the information that you could possibly want. We have
our mind over Murder podcast page. But we also have
family members of the victims who started social media pages
before we ever hit the scene, and Keith Call and
Cassandra Haley's families started a social media page called whatever
Happened to Richard, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. And we
also have a second page run by the families called
Colonial Parkway Murder. I'm sorry Colonial Parkway Victim's gone, but
not forgotten. We also run our own websites, Colonial Parkway
Murders dot com and mindover Murder podcast dot com. We
are very active in those spaces and we are attempting
to do everything that we can to get out the
information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. And we encourage anyone
who has any information at all of any variety to
please come forward to us, either anonymously or with an
I AM attached to it, and tell us what you
think you may know. There is no detail that is
too small.
Speaker 2: In this case, we got tips, major tips in the
Colonial Park murders a year little less than a year
ago at the last crime con. Now, there was a
bit of a kerfuffle with the FBI because I didn't
have all the particulars. It took me a little time
to track the husband and wife team who were here
at crime Con in Orlando, and things got a little heated,
and the FBI threatened to bring me up on federal
obstruction of justice charges. My response, and my late mom
again would not be proud of me, was if you
go right ahead, because I said, as I said to
the FBI, on what planet am I going to be
withholding information in my sister's unsolved murder case?
Speaker 8: That doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you've shared more than he has.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, I was ultimately able to track these wonderful people
down and get their information to the FBI, and we
smooth things out a little bit. So I think I'm
not on the Christmas card list anymore, but I'm not
being actively threatened with being brought up on charges.
Speaker 7: I think that's a good segue.
Speaker 9: I think we should honor the victims and talk about
them a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really important to remember the fact
that thirty seven years have passed five for these cases,
and that is for Kathy and Becky in particular. And
what we put up on the screen in front of
you is the ages that these victims would be now
had they lift And I want to very quickly name
the victims in the ages that they would currently be.
Robin Edwards, who was fourteen when she died, would be
fifty one today. Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three,
Sandra Haley would be fifty four, Marian Powell, whose case
may be connected as well, would be fifty four years old.
Keith Call would be fifty six, Daniel Lower would be
fifty six, David Nobling would be fifty seven, Becky Dawski
would be fifty nine. Brian Pattenger, whose case may also
be connected, would be sixty one, Terry Hall would be
sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five years old.
Speaker 7: It's amazing, Yeah, thank you for that. And you're gonna
have an opportunity in a little bit.
Speaker 9: We're gonna open up the house lights and you're gonna
be able to ask Kristen and Bill questions yourself and
they will answer anything. You see how obviously how open
and honest they are. They would love to talk to
you and have questions. So while you're thinking about those
and come into the two microphones, I will tell you something.
Speaker 7: Both about the two of them.
Speaker 9: So Kristin Dilley is one of those people. If she
sees that maybe you've had a rough case or a
rough day or something may be going on, she checks
in with you immediately. And that's the kind of thing
to me that is just extraordinary about her. Bill Thomas
is no different. Walk Na decided, David and I decided
we were gonna take the twins on a trip, and
we got into New York and our car broke down.
Bill lives in Connecticut, calls me immediately and says, hey,
you need me to come get you.
Speaker 7: You can stay at the house.
Speaker 9: This is who they are, So I just want you
to know that it's not something they do part time.
They are friend and just have your back at all times.
So we have somebody at a microphone, so if we want.
Speaker 7: To open up the house lights so y'all can see them.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Hi, my name is Rachel, my mom and my
brother and I are here and we all live in Richmond,
so we're familiar with the case and particularly familiar with
you guys. What I want to ask is about the
inability of law enforcement to put Allen Wade Wilmercy and
Ann to COOTIS and what sorts of alternatives this there?
Have they talked to his son or any of his
children about providing DNA there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a thank you. It's a fantastic question,
and we appreciate it. And I think this is going
to be a much larger issue than just the Colonial
Parkway murders because Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was never charged
with a crime and certainly not a felony during the
time that he was alive.
Speaker 8: According to the FBI and the Virginia State.
Speaker 2: Police, they cannot put his DNA into the CODIS system.
And we just think this is flat out wrong. Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior has been dead since twenty seventeen. What
civil rights are we possibly protecting?
Speaker 8: Guy's been dead for six years on seven now.
Speaker 2: We have a lot of friends that have been incredibly
helpful to the case and helping moving it forward. Beyond
just our good friend Nancy here and so one of
our law enforcement partners who's worked this case and is
now retired in a bit more free to speak. Frankly,
he had said, Bill, I think the FBI is your
biggest problem in terms of roadblocks, but he said the
Virginia State Police are probably a close second, and he said,
you can't lose sight of this fact that they don't
want to put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, and
they're using this as an excuse because if they put
Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's DNA into the CODA system, it
will light up like an f and Christmas other unsolved
murders and wait for it. There may be even some
cases in Virginia that other people have gone to jail
for that are actually committed by Wilmer. We believe this
guy may be involved and his brothers as well, in
cases extending.
Speaker 8: Back forty years.
Speaker 2: This guy has literally been getting away with murder, perhaps
for as long as four decades. So there's a big
incentive for law enforcement to say, oh, oh, we can't
put the indo cotis. I actually think we need to
be adjusting the rules for CODIS. If this SOB is dead,
let's just put it in there and let the chips
fall where they may. But you'll notice that there's a
discomfort on the part of law enforcement to treating this
case in a transparent way. That's at least the third
time I've used that word today, and so that's a
real challenge for us. And we actually don't have an
acceptable answer right now.
Speaker 8: I wish we did.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, we think we're going to have to pursue maybe
even legislation. And here's another crazy thing. We have fifty
different sets of rules. Every state in the Union has
different rules for how they handled DNA and CODIS. We
just talked about that on a Monday's episode of Mind
Over Murder Lindsay Wade, who is a fantastic, very accomplished
investigator whose book is nominated as one of the best
books of the year. Her book in My DNA, and
she explained to us, not that we completely understood at all,
and not that some of the answers were not unacceptable,
but she was explaining how we ended up with this
bizarre system where instead of having one set of rules,
you know, like a real country, as opposed to fifty
different sets of rules.
Speaker 8: And I think we the big we need to do better.
Speaker 2: It's our intention when we salve the Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 8: Note the optimism.
Speaker 2: I actually want to pivot to this larger issue of
there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides
in the United States that ought to be a national
scandal at this point.
Speaker 8: Think about it.
Speaker 2: A quarter of a million, and that numbers probably low
cold case homicides in the United States. That's insane and
as Lindsay was explaining to us on Monday's episode, fifty
different sets of rules.
Speaker 8: This makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker 7: Right, Yes, ma'am, yess. Just to follow up, my name
is Anne.
Speaker 3: Is there a way to legislatively in Virginia do something
about the Codis rule.
Speaker 2: This is something we're starting to explore, and this is
something that our listeners supporters are very interested in taking
a look at you.
Speaker 10: I think you'd have a lot of support from this
audience and from the whole of crime con.
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, all, just like change the law.
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah, my name is Jim. I have two quick questions.
One is, has anybody talked to his family about putting
their DNA in like a twenty three and me kind
of database so we could do some genetic testing ahead.
Speaker 3: We have been in touch with his family, and they
have been They're appalled by what they have learned about
their family member, and they do want to help in
every way that they possibly can, and so we are
working actively to talk with the family, and because they
are willing to help, we hope that someplace they're willing
to go. Bill, I know you spent more time talking
to his family members than I have. Is that something
that they've indicated they're willing to do.
Speaker 2: They seemed willing to do anything to help, which is
I never I thought.
Speaker 8: I talked to Christen about this. I said, I'm now talking.
Speaker 2: To the potential serial killers family who this person may have.
Speaker 8: Killed our sister.
Speaker 2: It's just like, Wow, I didn't expect it to go
into that twist the attorney place, but they seem very
willing to help in any way, and they've actually been lovely.
Speaker 8: And the truth is we see them as victims.
Speaker 2: Too, and they're not responsible for something that their ex
husband father in law did, but boy talk about a
situation that they hadn't anticipated. But they seem willing to
do anything to help law enforcement get to the bottom
of the case.
Speaker 11: And it's something I've always wondered about You've been working
on your sister's case for forty years. It's solved, So
now what do you do? Is there a letdown?
Speaker 8: Is there?
Speaker 7: Sorry, I can tell you what he's gonna do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not there yet, but he's just getting started. Yeah.
Speaker 8: I actually would like to.
Speaker 2: Work on this these broader issues because it's funny. We've
interviewed a lot of people from other cases. We don't
just talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, and boy, it's
pretty easy I find to put myself in the shoes
of somebody who's gone through something somewhat similar, because it's
an experience that we all share. What John Walsh says,
the you're invited to join the club that no one
wants to be invited to join. So I think our
intent would be to broaden out to these other issues.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 8: Yep.
Speaker 9: The remarkable thing is Kathy will be responsible through you
of helping thousands and thousands of families. Yeah, now, to
me is a remarkable thing, and what a legacy for
both of you. Yeah, because she wanted to serve her
country and she is.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, that's true. Thank you.
Speaker 12: Hi, my name is Crystal. Thank you for doing this.
And I listen to your podcast. I really like it.
My question relates to your the Colonial Parkway murder, but
also just Virginia more broadly. I was in grad school
in Virginia in the nineteen nineties, so I recall it's
a dangerous place. I didn't know at the time, but
it's a dangerous place. I still am a Virginia resident,
and just being aware of whether it's these cases and
just listening to you all talk about the challenges that
you've faced in trying to just get more information and
help law enforcement, but then also the Route twenty nine, Stoker,
the Shannando. I'm leaving a few others off, but the
more I learn, I just I'm learning that it seems
like there's a lot of cold cases, potential frankly serial
killers that have been roaming around Virginia for several decades.
So my question is there is anybody looking into this
or more broadly, like is there in other states you'll
have like the state police that may have a task
for it, the two people that are trying to put
together all the code cases or something, and I'm not
hearing anything like that in Virginia. Just seems like it's
just this black hole of cases that are clearly at
least about three or four major serial killer type cases,
and they've just gone into a black hole. So I'm
just just knowing that you guys are aware of and
involved in a lot of what's going on in Virginia.
I'm just curious if you have anything to say or
to share with those of us who are in Virginia
in response to that.
Speaker 3: It is weird, isn't it. How are so many serial
killers in Virginia and a lot of them were operating
at the same time. If you look at someone like
Randy Taylor, who was operating at the same time as
Jesse Matthew, for example, in the same area around Charlottesville,
how inexplicable is it that you have two serial killers
in the exact same area, right around the exact same time.
It is a little weird. We do have some podcasting
colleagues who are also interested in looking into the very
things that you've brought up, and so we do work
with them and explore these kind of concepts of why
are there so many serial killers in this area of Virginia.
Why hasn't more been done to try to figure out why?
Precisely that might be but yeah, that is definitely something
that we're interested in, and we have been watching with
satisfaction the creation of the Virginia Cold Case Database and
are very interested in seeing how that database grows and
develops over the next couple of years. That if you
want a good afternoon's worth of reading and go into
the Virginia Cold Case Database for a little bit. It's interesting,
but it's also kind of hair raising.
Speaker 12: Just like you said, is anyone working those cases.
Speaker 2: We think there's more of an effort being made now,
and of course it's exciting when you start to see
some solves and family members are getting answer.
Speaker 8: So our sense of it is that more.
Speaker 2: Resources are being put into these cases, certainly more than
in recent years.
Speaker 13: Yes, Hi, my name's Christina. First, I want to say
I really admire all the dedication and love and the
way you've honored your sister.
Speaker 7: We should all be.
Speaker 3: So lucky to have a brother like you.
Speaker 8: I mean, agreed, thank you.
Speaker 13: I was just curious if this way, senior, if you
guys have gotten any facts about his life, did he
have like domestic violence, animal cruelty? The neighbors complaining.
Speaker 2: What we're getting so far and we're not experts on
all things Alan Wade Wilmer Senior.
Speaker 8: But there almost seem like two. He's living two lives.
Speaker 2: His family and friends and people that knew him in
Lancaster County, which is a couple hours north of Williamsburg,
they don't for the most part, they don't have any
experiences with him that are consistent with the idea of
him being a serial killer. Now they do understand that
he's definitely linked via DNA to the murder of at
least three people, and I think there are more. But
it almost sounds like after he was married for six years,
they were.
Speaker 8: Divorced, and.
Speaker 2: After his divorce, as he would make his way down
towards what Kristin calls the Tidewater area of Virginia where
he's working with the boat fishing, crabbing, oystering, he seems
to then move into this really extended dark period. Now
his family is potentially linked with other murders in Lancaster County,
also unsolved, and which extend back, and that's where we're
getting the forty years from. But Wilmer's kind of acting out,
if you will, or being an active serial killer, seems
to be concentrated mostly when he's living down in the Hampton,
Virginia area, working on his boat.
Speaker 3: It's a real doctor Jackyl mister Hyde sort of thing.
If you'll pardon the English teacher reference for a couple
of minutes.
Speaker 8: Yes, my name's Emily.
Speaker 14: I was actually really curious how you decided to start
the podcast. Was there something about your work on the
cases that made you think, hey, we can reach a
wider audience with the podcast, or was there another reason
why you decided to start the podcast.
Speaker 8: Oh.
Speaker 2: I think it's because I had guested on many of
the podcasts here on now we're calling it Creator's Row
Podcast Row, and a number of those podcasters said, Bill,
you're really good at this.
Speaker 8: You should do a podcast of your own.
Speaker 2: And Kristin heard them sometimes even say it on the air,
and she.
Speaker 8: Said, yeah, you should do a podcast.
Speaker 2: I said, let's do a podcast together, and we thought
it would.
Speaker 8: Be a logical outgrowth of the work.
Speaker 2: That we were doing together to move the Colonial Parkway
murders forward and one of the things that we've tried
to do. And for those of you that are listened
to the podcast, we've met all these amazing people along
the way.
Speaker 8: You meet somebody like.
Speaker 2: Cheryl mccoum, and she's got this fascinating background as a
real life CSI. So not only is she helping us
and providing us with great advice and educating us quite frankly.
We then turn around and we said, hey, would you
come on our new podcast and she says yes. And
so all these amazing people that we've met over the
last fifteen years or so, we've asked them to.
Speaker 8: Come on our show and talk.
Speaker 2: We talk with authors and investigators and forensics experts, and
a lot of what we're doing is we're talking with
people that we would like to get to know better
and learn from and taking the audience along for the ride.
And I think people have really enjoyed that as a result.
Speaker 3: And we thank you all very much for coming along
on the ride with us. We really appreciate you. Thank
you for coming to speaking our booth and to pick
up some of this information about Ellen wid Wilmer Senior.
We are on Creator's Row boot sixty one, right next
to Mac.
Speaker 9: I was just gonna say, I know, there's two people
still at the microphone, but we literally have fifteen seconds left.
We have to move so the other people can set up,
but they are on creator's row. Please come by and
talk to them. They need to talk to you, ma'am.
So I'm going to make sure y'all connect. Okay, absolutely,
Thank y'all so much.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 9: Man. That would cool.
Speaker 5: We hope you enjoyed the session.
Speaker 6: As a reminder, if you're heading out for another session
or taking a quick break, please collect all your personal
belongings before exiting for security purposes. No bad or personal
items may be left unattended at any time.
Speaker 5: Thank you for your cooperation.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.
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