1
00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

2
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

4
00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

5
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

6
00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

7
00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

8
00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519
Kristin Dilly.

9
00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

10
00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

11
00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719
as well as the social media manager and co administrator

12
00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

13
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079
in crime, Bill Thomas.

14
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:50,520
Speaker 5: Please welcome to the stage.

15
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 6: Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly victims advocates, writers, and the

16
00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:58,479
co host of the Mind over Murder podcast. They are

17
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,399
joined by their moderator and crime con favorite Cheryl McCollum

18
00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:07,319
and Atlanta based CSI and host of this own seven podcast.

19
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 7: Let's Do This, Baby. Yeah, I'll be keeping this. Thank you.

20
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 8: Oh are these souvenir pillows?

21
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,159
Speaker 7: Yes, I've never seen them. Hey, let's get something out

22
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:22,200
of the way. Real quick.

23
00:01:22,599 --> 00:01:31,599
Speaker 9: For thirty seven years, Bill Thomas has fault for his sister.

24
00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 8: Yep, which makes me old.

25
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,400
Speaker 7: Seriously, thirty seven years.

26
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 9: I just find that not only heartwarming but just so impressive.

27
00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:44,079
Speaker 7: And I'm going to tell you something else.

28
00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:47,959
Speaker 9: When it's your family and you're fighting for justice and

29
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,159
you're hitting the streets every day, that is amazing. But

30
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,519
when you can find a sidekick that is just as

31
00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,920
devoted and works just as hard like Kristen, I don't

32
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,439
know what to say about her except just extraordinary human being.

33
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,439
Speaker 7: So I just wanted to get that out.

34
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 4: Of the way.

35
00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,120
Speaker 9: Because we were here at crime Con last year and

36
00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:15,680
somebody was like, oh, I know who that is.

37
00:02:15,759 --> 00:02:17,159
Speaker 7: That's I don't want to say what they said.

38
00:02:17,199 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 9: I'm not going to repeat it, but they lessened what

39
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,000
she does and what she and Bill do together. So

40
00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,800
I just wanted to say out loud, this is a partnership.

41
00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:31,159
They are both investigators, they are both podcasters, they both

42
00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:34,400
have such a hand and why we are here today,

43
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,400
So let's talk about while we're here today, let's talk

44
00:02:37,479 --> 00:02:39,719
about and we don't always get to say this.

45
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,039
Speaker 7: From this stage, so I'm will stand up and say it.

46
00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:49,520
Speaker 9: We got a break in the case, and it's in

47
00:02:49,719 --> 00:02:53,479
large part because of what these two were doing. I'm

48
00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:55,319
not gonna take up any more time because just let

49
00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,400
you know, I could. I could talk about Bill and

50
00:02:57,479 --> 00:02:58,800
Christen in a long time.

51
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 7: But I even have notes.

52
00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 9: Because I don't know if y'all know this, but Krista

53
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:09,479
Dilley is a professional educatory and she has sent me

54
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:10,360
a few notes.

55
00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,319
Speaker 7: Had a flashback from high.

56
00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:17,159
Speaker 9: School, I would get one email. Here's the PowerPoint review it. Please,

57
00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:20,120
here are some side notes. Please review and get back

58
00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:22,840
to me. Here are the questions that I would like

59
00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:28,919
for you to ask. I'm so BOSSI not bossy, but honey,

60
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,199
we're gonna stay on track and we're gonna stay on point.

61
00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 7: Is that fine? And I love her for it. So

62
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,280
if it's all right with y'all, I'm just gonna kick

63
00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:39,199
this off. You go ahead. That gravy, all right right ahead.

64
00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:43,800
Speaker 9: On January eighth, twenty twenty four, the FBI in the

65
00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:48,840
Virginia State Police held a joint press conference in Norfolk, Virginia,

66
00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:53,560
announcing the identity of the perpetrator of the nineteen eighty

67
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,240
seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Noban, one of

68
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,080
the four double homicides in the group collectively known as

69
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:08,599
the Colonial Parkway Murders. The perpetrator, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior,

70
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,719
was a commercial waterman deceased since twenty seventeen, and had

71
00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:18,920
been linked to three of the victims via DNA. Today,

72
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,639
we're going to take you all inside the explosive and

73
00:04:22,759 --> 00:04:27,040
dramatic developments in the Colonial Parkway murders and this discovery

74
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,920
of a new serial killer in tide Water, Virginia, a

75
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,600
killer who may have been hunting and killing for as

76
00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:39,639
long as forty years. I'm Cheryl Matt McCollum, the host

77
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,360
of z Own seven, an active CSI, and I am

78
00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:49,720
joined here by Kristin Dilley, a podcaster, a teacher, a writer,

79
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,399
and a victim's advocate, along with Bill Thomas, the brother

80
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,800
of Kathy Thomas, one of the first victims of the

81
00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:03,600
cl Oil Parkway murder, also a podcaster and writer and

82
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,680
TV personality. And I could not be in better company.

83
00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:10,160
And I thank you both for allowing me to be here.

84
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you, Matt, thank you.

85
00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:18,319
Speaker 9: Why don't the two of you just start by telling

86
00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:20,600
us a little bit about who you are and your

87
00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:22,079
podcast and how that came.

88
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,399
Speaker 8: To be Okay, you want to go first. Sure.

89
00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:29,439
Speaker 3: So I started working with Bill in two thy sixteen

90
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,279
when I got into my head to write a book

91
00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:34,959
about his sister's case.

92
00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:40,399
Speaker 8: We were both teenagers at that point, maybe you were.

93
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,959
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I think you're slightly older than me.

94
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,000
Oh god, yes, do we want to pull the age card?

95
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,399
Speaker 8: No? No, let's just keep going. You were doing something great.

96
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:51,079
Speaker 7: I wasn't.

97
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 3: Then you interrupted me.

98
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 8: But that's all right, So what else is new? Absolutely,

99
00:05:56,199 --> 00:05:57,040
I'll be quiet now.

100
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,079
Speaker 3: So I reached out to Bill because I wanted to

101
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,120
book about his sister's case, and thus began the partnership

102
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,879
that continues to this day. We started our podcast, Mind

103
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,160
Over Murder in twenty twenty. It was pre pandemic. Please

104
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,279
note we were not a pandemic podcast, right. We were

105
00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:15,639
before the pandemic.

106
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 7: And that really came.

107
00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:22,519
Speaker 3: About because Bill kepbeen asked to guest on podcast after

108
00:06:22,639 --> 00:06:25,319
podcast and I said, Hey, Bud, when are you going

109
00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:26,600
to start your own podcast?

110
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:27,519
Speaker 7: And you said.

111
00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:32,399
Speaker 2: I said, I'll do a podcast if you'll do a podcast.

112
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 8: Because I figured.

113
00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 2: The last thing the world needs is another white guy

114
00:06:37,759 --> 00:06:41,319
have a certain age. That would be me talking about

115
00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:45,680
whatever true crime or cars or sports or cooking or

116
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,639
you name, whatever your interest might be.

117
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,279
Speaker 8: I thought, man, that's going to be really boring.

118
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 2: But I thought, if we could get a different perspective

119
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,279
and have a woman's point of view. Kristen grew up

120
00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:02,839
in Williams, Virginia, where the Colonial Parkway murders are centered.

121
00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:07,519
I've never lived in Virginia, and so she had actually

122
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,959
grown up with the Colonial Parkway murders on some levels

123
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,639
back when she was a teenager. And interestingly, even though

124
00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:20,360
we come at this from each from our own perspective

125
00:07:20,399 --> 00:07:24,839
and Kristen's own life, she was also touched by violence

126
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,360
in that a friend's mother was brutally murdered, which is

127
00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:31,480
how she got into the true crime space, much in

128
00:07:31,519 --> 00:07:34,360
the same way that I got into true crime because

129
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,240
my sister Kathy's unfortunate homicide. But I thought having the

130
00:07:40,279 --> 00:07:43,639
two of us mix it up and come at our

131
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,839
stories from two different points of view would be really

132
00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:51,759
good and has been, interestingly, although where I'm significantly older,

133
00:07:51,759 --> 00:07:54,639
if you haven't figured that out already, and we grew

134
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,240
up in different parts of the country, and we come

135
00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:01,519
at this thing from our two differing backgrounds.

136
00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 8: We actually rarely disagree, although we.

137
00:08:04,639 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 2: Have a commitment with the podcast that if Kristin thinks

138
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,360
I'm wrong or vice versa, we'll both weigh in. But

139
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,879
the truth is we almost always arrive at the same place,

140
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,439
and sometimes Kristin will say.

141
00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:19,600
Speaker 8: A lot I've been thinking.

142
00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,279
Speaker 2: And I'll think, Wow, that's a really good idea. I

143
00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:25,040
don't know why I didn't think of that, but it's

144
00:08:25,079 --> 00:08:26,519
been a really effective partnership.

145
00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:29,639
Speaker 3: I think so too. And here's too many more years

146
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,120
of doing Mind Ever Murder together.

147
00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 2: Well and moving the Colonial Parkway murders and lots of

148
00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:35,039
other cases forward.

149
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 9: Y'all have that chemistry that you just can't predict and

150
00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:40,159
you certainly can't force it.

151
00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 7: It just happens. But what really comes through for me

152
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,759
is the friendship. Yeah, it's very clear.

153
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,039
Speaker 9: For anybody that maybe doesn't really know the outline of

154
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,200
Colonial Parkway murders, can you just give a basic understanding.

155
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:55,559
Speaker 8: You want to do this one, you want me to?

156
00:08:55,879 --> 00:08:57,799
Speaker 3: Why don't you go ahead because it's your sister's case.

157
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,879
Speaker 2: We'll try to go through really quickly. The biggest challenge

158
00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:04,240
for us in the Colonial Parkway murders is there's all

159
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,759
these rabbit holes you can go down. We'll try to

160
00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:08,879
avoid the rabbit holes and just give you the quick

161
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,840
overview if you're not familiar with the case.

162
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 8: So with the Colonial.

163
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 2: Parkway murders, what you have are four double homicides of couples.

164
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,519
Sometimes we say four years, but it's really three nineteen

165
00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:23,240
eighty six to nineteen eighty nine. It's approximately one couple

166
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,960
of year for three years in a row, starting with

167
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,480
my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, who

168
00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:35,840
were brutally murdered in October nineteen eighty six. A year later,

169
00:09:36,759 --> 00:09:41,279
a second couple, David Nobling and Robin Edwards, were murdered

170
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,000
under somewhat similar circumstances out about a half an hour away.

171
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,799
So now we're going from October eighty six September nineteen

172
00:09:49,799 --> 00:09:54,360
eighty seven. Then the following spring a young couple go

173
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,639
missing on a first date. Robin Edwards and Dave I'm sorry,

174
00:09:58,799 --> 00:10:04,240
David stop built, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley disappear on

175
00:10:04,279 --> 00:10:07,639
a first date. They're actually never found to this date.

176
00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,279
Technically they're missing persons, but it's been thirty six years.

177
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 8: I don't think they're walking through the door tomorrow.

178
00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 2: Sadly, and then finally a fourth couple is killed. Daniel

179
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,919
Lower and Anna Maria Phelps were killed and they went

180
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,399
missing over Labor Day weekend nineteen eighty nine, and then

181
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,639
their bodies are found about six weeks later in a

182
00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:38,360
hunt club. Now one quick thing with the Colonial Parkway murders. Interestingly,

183
00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,960
the only serious couple is actually the lesbian couple My

184
00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:46,360
sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski. I've been seeing

185
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,759
each other for about six months or so at the

186
00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,240
time of their deaths, and we actually hadn't met Becky yet.

187
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,840
We were supposed to meet her that Thanksgiving, and of

188
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,399
course they died in October.

189
00:10:57,759 --> 00:11:01,039
Speaker 8: The other couples are almost.

190
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,919
Speaker 2: Somewhere between on a first date and traveling companions. For

191
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,759
Robin Edwards and David Nobling they met that day. For

192
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,200
Keith Calling Cassandra Haley, they were literally on a first date.

193
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,000
I went to a college party and disappeared thereafter. And

194
00:11:20,039 --> 00:11:27,919
Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower. Anna's actually dating his

195
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,919
brother Clint, and so they're traveling together down to Virginia Beach,

196
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,320
and time permitting, we'll get into more detail, but we

197
00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:42,120
say couples a lot, but we're actually not necessarily talking

198
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,840
about serious couples.

199
00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 8: We're actually talking about people that.

200
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 2: Kind of almost don't know each other very well.

201
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:50,279
Speaker 7: Like many of you.

202
00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,399
Speaker 9: I feel invested in this case because Bill and I

203
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,960
when we first met, and y'all, I've worked with hundreds

204
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,039
of families, but let me.

205
00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 7: Tell you about Bill Thomas.

206
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,080
Speaker 9: We're talking on the phone and I said, you don't

207
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,600
know me, but I think there might be a forensic

208
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:07,440
thing we can.

209
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,919
Speaker 7: Try here on your sister's case.

210
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,799
Speaker 9: So I mentioned the m vat if y'all are premier

211
00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:13,159
with Jerry Bradley.

212
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,919
Speaker 7: He's here. He said, I don't know what that is?

213
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,000
What is it? So I told him very briefly, y'all.

214
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 9: The next thing I know, I see on Facebook where

215
00:12:21,519 --> 00:12:24,879
Bill flew to another state to meet with Jared to

216
00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:27,480
get this done, and I'm like, this is what I'm

217
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:28,240
talking about.

218
00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:30,320
Speaker 7: He is a man of action.

219
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,279
Speaker 9: It's beyond anything I've ever seen a family member do

220
00:12:33,879 --> 00:12:38,200
quickly and just so controlled about it. And then the

221
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,360
events of January eighth, which I would like for y'all

222
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:41,960
to talk about.

223
00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:43,679
Speaker 7: I get a text.

224
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 9: While I'm at work from you, and I'm like, we

225
00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:49,840
know she's teaching. I know she's busy, so I think

226
00:12:49,879 --> 00:12:53,600
this must be something. When I look down and saw

227
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360
there's been a break, it was almost more than I

228
00:12:56,399 --> 00:12:58,960
could take. So I want y'all to talk about that

229
00:12:59,039 --> 00:13:01,120
day because I talked the boat. I talked to you,

230
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,120
yes first, and just the emotion that I could hear

231
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,960
it also failed. But y'all take it from there, honey.

232
00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:11,679
January eighth, it was a heck of a day for sure.

233
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,240
Speaker 3: So on January eighth, the Virginia State Police and the

234
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,759
FBI held a joint press conference, and during that presser,

235
00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:25,279
they announced that Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior, who was sixty

236
00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:29,320
three years old of Lancaster, Virginia, had been connected to

237
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:34,519
the Robin Edwards and David Knobline murders via DNA, and

238
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:39,320
this was huge. We also received new information about a

239
00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:42,759
victim that we were totally unfamiliar with, a woman by

240
00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:46,519
the name of Teresa Howell. At the same time, we

241
00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,879
learned that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had died in his

242
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,399
home in twenty seventeen, so there was no arrest made,

243
00:13:55,159 --> 00:13:57,759
but for us, it was a very big deal because

244
00:13:57,799 --> 00:14:01,919
this is the first significant case break over the thirty

245
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,840
seven years that Bill and his family and the other

246
00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:09,440
families have been involved in this case. So this was massive,

247
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,679
and it's also the first time that a single homicide

248
00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:18,679
victim was connected to the couples in the Colonial Parkway murders.

249
00:14:19,159 --> 00:14:23,600
And so suddenly we're in a whole new world of

250
00:14:23,679 --> 00:14:26,919
information that we're getting. Not only do we have a

251
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000
suspect and he's been linked to be a DNA, but

252
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080
maybe this isn't as cut and dried in terms of

253
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,480
couples killings as we had originally thought. But Bill, you

254
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,639
had a very different experience than I did on January eighth,

255
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,039
because you weren't watching the presser. Would you like to

256
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,279
tell the good folks out there what you were doing?

257
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is interesting. Let's step back for one second.

258
00:14:53,039 --> 00:14:57,399
About a year ago, we got a call with a tip,

259
00:14:57,639 --> 00:15:00,159
and we've developed a lot of contacts in law enforce

260
00:15:00,559 --> 00:15:03,879
and a lot of a lot of different places, and

261
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,240
we've got to call that the Virginia Department of Forensic

262
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,200
Sciences had applied for and received a SAKI grant. If

263
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,080
you're not familiar sexual Assault Kit Initiative grant, this is

264
00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:20,679
federal money that goes to state and local law enforcement

265
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,159
to test untested rape kits and other evidence. It's an

266
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,960
incredible program. I urge everyone if to ask their law

267
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,639
enforcement agencies, have you applied for a SAKI grant if

268
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:36,919
there's any talk And there was a lot of talk

269
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,759
in our case about we don't have the funding to

270
00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:43,360
conduct this forensic test or that forensic test. So we

271
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,720
got a call that the Virginia authorities had requested for

272
00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:52,200
and received a SAKI grant, and that SAKI grant led

273
00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:57,720
directly to this big step that Kristen's talking about. In

274
00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:02,000
the Colonial Parkway murders, they test the rape kit from

275
00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:07,080
fourteen year old Robin Edwards and that led directly to

276
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,559
them identifying Wilmer. And we notice how we keep saying

277
00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:14,039
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One thing we feel really bad

278
00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:17,399
about is there is an Alan Wade Wilmer junior, his

279
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:20,240
son who's a grown man now. So we try to

280
00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:24,279
be very specific. We were talking about senior here, but

281
00:16:24,639 --> 00:16:28,840
that testing of that evidence, which was very badly degraded.

282
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,200
It was over thirty six years old. It been tested

283
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,960
numerous times over the years, and as Matt can tell you,

284
00:16:38,559 --> 00:16:42,919
certain types of DNA testing consume the evidence, and it

285
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,679
was also evidence that was exposed to seawater, so it's

286
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,039
a complicated and difficult sample. The first lab that did

287
00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:56,559
the testing was unsuccessful, but the good news is.

288
00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 8: They didn't use any of the DNA.

289
00:16:58,879 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 2: To make this determination. So a second lab was then

290
00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,839
asked to do testing. I think I know who it is,

291
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,799
but I don't want to credit the wrong lab, so

292
00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:09,279
we'll leave their name out of it. But it's a

293
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,880
highly respected lab who's done other work for us in

294
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,039
the Colonial Parkway murders, and they were able to get

295
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:21,640
a profile that then led directly, we believe, to the

296
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:27,480
identification of the killer of Teresa Spa Howell, who was

297
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:29,400
the name that Kristin was talking about.

298
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:32,279
Speaker 8: The person we were not familiar.

299
00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:34,599
Speaker 9: With because right before they named her, y'all had never

300
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:35,599
even heard her name.

301
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,519
Speaker 8: Nope, No.

302
00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:41,799
Speaker 2: Now, our contacts in the media had told us several

303
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,599
months prior to the press conference that there have been

304
00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:50,240
a development in our case, and they actually had identified

305
00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:55,039
for us the suspect, his brother who's also sometimes mentioned

306
00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:59,720
in connection with this case, and Teresa Howell's name, which

307
00:17:59,799 --> 00:18:02,799
was brand new to us. So we knew about this

308
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,640
in October twenty twenty three, and then the press conference

309
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,000
came on January eighth. Yes, we didn't get into why

310
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:13,799
I was tied up.

311
00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:17,440
Speaker 3: I think we should. I think it's I think it's

312
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,160
a fascinating look into what all has been going on

313
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,119
in this case with regard to a certain federal law

314
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,079
enforcement agency that we're not going to name.

315
00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:26,160
Speaker 8: Sure we are.

316
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,519
Speaker 7: I will you go ahead and throw them under the bus.

317
00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 2: Then he's cool, Okay, happy to and hello to our

318
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,119
friends from the Federal Bureau Investigation.

319
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,680
Speaker 8: Listen to the podcast.

320
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,400
Speaker 2: By the way, we know this for a fact because

321
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,480
they've even contacted us and asked us to make corrections,

322
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,839
which we're always happy to do. And now the Virginia

323
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,880
State Police also listen, so it's fascinating. So we appreciate

324
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:48,839
the fact that they listen.

325
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 8: Then they're gonna watch this thing too.

326
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,279
Speaker 2: If you are killed, if you were killed inside a

327
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,799
national park, it's an FBI case since day one. Now,

328
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,279
remember my family and I've been dealing with the FBI

329
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,720
for thirty seven years. Sometimes there are frustrating moments. This

330
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,880
was one of them. Our agent, who I've been working

331
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:17,559
with for the last decade, contacted me to set at

332
00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:21,799
seven thirty in the morning to set up a call

333
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,680
that afternoon when it was a Monday.

334
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,839
Speaker 8: If I'm not it was Monday for one thirty pm.

335
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 2: Having worked with this agent for a decade and I

336
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,359
really liked this agent, she doesn't usually contacted me six

337
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:40,240
hours in advance to say, Hey, Bill, can we talk

338
00:19:40,279 --> 00:19:41,279
at one thirty pm?

339
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,319
Speaker 8: Today? She usually calls.

340
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: Me or texts me and asks me to call her,

341
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,359
and probably figured this out. This is a case is

342
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,039
very important to me. So usually I'm on the phone

343
00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,240
with her within five minutes if I can get away,

344
00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,240
and my long suffering life partner, Pamela, who it was

345
00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:03,480
absolutely wonderful. I can't tell you how many times I've

346
00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:08,640
walked out of dinners, lunches, meetings, you name it to

347
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,240
take a call from our FBI agent. But so when

348
00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:16,359
she called and said she wanted to talk at one thirty,

349
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,799
I thought this is odd. And then.

350
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 8: Over the course of that morning.

351
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: Kristen reached out to me and she said that press

352
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,519
conference we've been waiting for, it's happening, and it's happening today,

353
00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:33,160
and I said, oh, okay. Short A while later, Kristin

354
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,920
comes back and says, looks like it's going to be

355
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:40,400
at one thirty pm. So I texted our agent back

356
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,839
and I said, is it your intention that we're going

357
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,119
to watch this press conference together?

358
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 8: And she said no, and I said, that's odd.

359
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 2: So at one thirty pm, when the rest of the

360
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,759
world was watching the press conference, I was on the

361
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:04,279
phone with our FBI agent. Now those of you that

362
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,000
know me or listen to Mind over Murder know that

363
00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:10,359
I tend to be pretty direct. This was done deliberately

364
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,480
so that I couldn't watch the press conference in real time.

365
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,759
As you can imagine, while I'm talking to our agent,

366
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,519
I got the iPhone set up on the desk. There

367
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,279
the top third of the or so of the screen

368
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,000
is where the texts are coming in. So I'm talking

369
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,400
to our agent, whom I really like, and I'm learning

370
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,559
a lot. We talk for two hours and fifteen minutes,

371
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:40,599
which is long, but by the top of my screen

372
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,960
is just blowing up. Bill, are you following this press conference?

373
00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:50,920
Why aren't you commenting on social media or whatever? And

374
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,079
the texts start coming in faster and faster. Basically they're saying,

375
00:21:54,319 --> 00:21:58,200
built where the hell are you? Your sister's case is

376
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,279
being discussed at a national level, and you're saying nothing.

377
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,160
You've gone radio silent, and then of course things explode.

378
00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:07,079
Speaker 8: After I get.

379
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,839
Speaker 2: Off the phone with the FBI two hours and fifteen

380
00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:13,160
minutes later, I literally wasn't able to watch the press

381
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,079
conference until ten o'clock that night, when things finally began

382
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,920
to calm down. And then I knew why the FBI

383
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,160
didn't want me to watch the press conference, because I

384
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,759
wasn't going to be happy. I was thrilled for the

385
00:22:28,799 --> 00:22:32,799
two families, and this new family that we hadn't heard about,

386
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,720
the Howells. We were thrilled about this news, but I

387
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:41,480
quickly realized there's a lot of very important information that's

388
00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:49,799
not being said publicly about this significant development, the Colonial

389
00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:54,440
Parkway murders. First of all, this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,

390
00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,960
was also a suspect in the disappear so Keith call

391
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,839
and Cassandra Haley. Remember we went through those cases quickly.

392
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:10,559
They've linked him via DNA to incident number three, but

393
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:15,119
he actually was the leading suspect in incident number two,

394
00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:21,440
the disappearance of Keith and Sandy. And even at the

395
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:28,359
press conference, journalists asked, can you say when this man

396
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:30,599
first moved on to your radar.

397
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 8: And this is important.

398
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 2: They refused to answer the question YEP twice, two different

399
00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:42,119
journalists who know this case said can you say, and

400
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,880
they said the answer was no. And so when your

401
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,200
law enforcement agencies aren't being straight, you know you have

402
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,680
a problem. Because as soon as I had a chance

403
00:23:55,759 --> 00:23:59,079
to watch the press conference at ten o'clock that night,

404
00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:05,079
I realized, this guy is the guy I heard about

405
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,400
in nineteen eighty eight. This guy was under arrested by

406
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,799
the FBI in eighty eight and they let him go,

407
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,160
and that's why they didn't want to talk about this

408
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:20,640
at the presser.

409
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 7: Now, Bill, I have a question.

410
00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:24,799
Speaker 9: First of all, I didn't know the FBI was listening,

411
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,559
So I'm Nancy Grace.

412
00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: I would have known that voice anywhere else.

413
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 9: I want a few more questions, Jackie cut Kristen's Mike, Okay.

414
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,039
Speaker 8: You're in trouble now.

415
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,279
Speaker 9: But why do you think that the local and state

416
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,319
and federal law enforcement turned a blind eye to this guy? Like,

417
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,359
what is your gut feeling about that?

418
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: I want to be fair if we're talking about back

419
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,279
in eighty eight, this is real important for everybody to understand.

420
00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:04,799
Speaker 8: This is before DNA.

421
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: Now, remember Wilmer's identified all these years later via DNA,

422
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:11,359
so we have tools now that we didn't back then,

423
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,119
and they brought him in. He was at the absolute

424
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,160
top of the list. They referred to him as suspect

425
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,680
number one, but he passed a polygraph once. They gave

426
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:26,759
him a second one and the results were inconclusive. We've

427
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:29,920
heard unconfirmed rumors that there may be a second man

428
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,160
who was also given a polygraph. The agents, the case agents,

429
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,799
whom my late.

430
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,599
Speaker 8: Father used to talk to frequently.

431
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: These were names we all knew around the dining room table,

432
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,640
and as you can probably imagine, of the four kids

433
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,759
in the family, I was the one that took the

434
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:50,960
greatest amount of interest in Kathy's case. So I remember

435
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,680
having a lot of private conversations with my dad. But

436
00:25:54,079 --> 00:25:58,039
we knew that there was a waterman who was seriously

437
00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:00,839
looked at. We were told it was two terman actually

438
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,519
in nineteen eighty eight, so I want to be fair.

439
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,559
At the same time, the case agents were rock solid

440
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:13,240
certain they had identified the right guy, but I think

441
00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:15,599
this is one of those cases where they couldn't prove it.

442
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:20,839
Speaker 3: They even told the families during a private family meeting,

443
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:24,920
we are ninety nine percent sure this is the guy.

444
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:27,559
We are ninety eight percent sure this is the guy.

445
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:30,400
And I want to make sure that we don't move

446
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,279
too fast past the point that I think is most

447
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:38,240
important and that we don't want to get lost, which

448
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:41,200
is the fact that after this guy was let go

449
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,279
in nineteen eighty eight, he murdered Teresa Howell. Teresa Howell

450
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,519
is dead because the FBI polygraphed him and cleared him

451
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:57,920
and let him go. TERSA how would not be dead otherwise.

452
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,759
Speaker 2: And this is where we get in to the discomfort

453
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,440
of the FBI. And then there's all this weirdness that's

454
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,920
going on in the background of this case now, where

455
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,559
they've told dozens of people don't talk to Bill Thomas,

456
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,440
and of course most of those people their first thought

457
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:17,279
is who the heck is Bill Thomas.

458
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 8: And then when they find out who I am and

459
00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:24,400
who we are, they end.

460
00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:26,759
Speaker 2: Up they listen to Mine over Murder and they learn

461
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:30,559
more about the case, and then these people call me,

462
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,440
and so all these people are coming out of the

463
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,400
woodwork and guess in a good way with more information,

464
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,400
and of course we're trying desperately to steer those people

465
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,319
back towards law enforcement. But this is where I think

466
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,759
law enforcement makes a tremendous mistake by playing all these

467
00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:53,799
stupid reindeer games like don't talk to Bill Thomas. Look,

468
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,640
I get it, I have a big mouth, and I

469
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,440
know I'm a bit of a handful, but I'm trying

470
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,160
to figure out who killed my sister. But telling people

471
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,079
don't talk to Bill Thomas, all it makes them to

472
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,440
do is think I.

473
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,559
Speaker 8: Got to track this guy down.

474
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,039
Speaker 2: And I told the FBI the occasional lapses into profanity.

475
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:16,200
My mom would not be very proud of me. I

476
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,279
told them as recently as a few weeks ago. You

477
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,680
guys are fing this case up beyond all measure. And

478
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,880
by the way, telling everybody in this case don't talk

479
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,400
to Bill Thomas is completely not working. I have actually

480
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:31,920
started now. You know how we all get bothered by

481
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,119
spam calls.

482
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 8: It's like a lot of people I stopped.

483
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: Answering my phone if it's a number I don't recognize.

484
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,319
New policy. If you're from Virginia and you call, I'm

485
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:45,039
going to talk to you. And a lot of these

486
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,559
folks are saying very tentatively at first, I am someones

487
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,200
you don't know me have information and in most examples,

488
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,599
I'm like, I'm very happy to hear from you and actually.

489
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 8: Do know who you are.

490
00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. Will be right back

491
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:08,359
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

492
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,880
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just

493
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,359
wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme

494
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:18,200
effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to

495
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,680
help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder

496
00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:26,960
and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.

497
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,720
We'd love it if you could support us in any

498
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:33,720
way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to

499
00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:36,759
whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will

500
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:39,720
be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes

501
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:43,480
and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for

502
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:47,119
your support. Now back to Mind over Murder.

503
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 9: But listen, we're five months in now. Yeah, what questions

504
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,359
do you still have about Wilmer?

505
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 8: If you want to fire away.

506
00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:00,319
Speaker 3: We have so much that we want to know about Wilmer,

507
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,880
and I want to make sure that we focus not

508
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,759
only on victimology to but also the issues that you

509
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,839
were talking about, which is how was he allowed after

510
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,680
a year, given that law enforcement knew he was harassing

511
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,119
couples on the Colonial Parkway. How was this guy allowed

512
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,759
to continue going on doing what he was doing? But

513
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,079
is so many things that we want to know. How

514
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:30,039
did he actually choose his victims in the first place?

515
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,279
Is this random? Or is he stalking them? How did

516
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:37,079
he approach his victims? One of the things that you'll

517
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:40,480
notice if you come by our booth is we are

518
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,119
handing out postcards with all of this information about Alan

519
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,680
Wade Wilmer, Sr. And it includes some photos of his

520
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:51,079
very distinctive truck with a Vanity license plate to the

521
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:53,880
state of Virginia. We're big on those and his vote

522
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,039
that Jenny Wade. We would really like to know how

523
00:30:57,039 --> 00:31:00,279
did he approach his victims? Was he approaching on foot?

524
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,920
Was he approaching in the truck? Was he approaching in

525
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,759
his boat? We want to know what locations was Wilmer

526
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,039
frequenting when he was visiting our area because he did

527
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,079
not live in Tidewater. He lived in Lancaster County and

528
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,920
he was coming down here to do work as a waterman.

529
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,799
So what areas was he frequenting? Was he frequently off

530
00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:25,400
the Colonial Parkway, Was he up in Middlesex, was.

531
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 8: He at Hampton?

532
00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: Where was he We're very curious about the behavior that

533
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,599
he exhibited to his family and friends. Did anybody have

534
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,799
an inkling that this was going on? And then, of

535
00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:38,640
course we really do want to know exactly what you've

536
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,759
been curious about, which is why was he allowed to

537
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,880
go free even after passing this polygraph? If he was

538
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,640
a prime suspect in Keith call In Sandy Haley's disappearances,

539
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,759
that is just inexplicable to both of us. There's a

540
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:57,680
lot to unpack there. And then there is the potential

541
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,119
that he might be involved in other low cold cases.

542
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:04,519
And despite the fact that the two of us say

543
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:07,079
we are not investigators, we do a certain amount of

544
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,440
digging in our copious amounts. And there are a number

545
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:13,119
of local cold cases that I think Wilmer might be

546
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,799
potentially connected to, and those are things that we are exploring.

547
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,200
I had forty years, he's had forty years that he

548
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,599
could be doing this for. And we have a lot

549
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,440
of cold cases in Virginia.

550
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 9: And like when we talked, he had more than one vehicle,

551
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:28,680
more than one way.

552
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:29,359
Speaker 7: To stalk people.

553
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,759
Speaker 9: He had a truck, he had a business that would

554
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,920
allow him to go here and there. He also had

555
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,519
a boat, so he could literally see down the Colonial Parkway,

556
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,200
either from the roadway or the waterway. So it's an

557
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,839
extraordinary to me vantage point when you're stalking people, no

558
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,759
question about it.

559
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: And there are dozens of reports of someone matching Wilmer's

560
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,839
description driving this very distinctive truck that Kristen was talking about, yep,

561
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,640
approaching them like a po police officer would, demanding driver's licenses,

562
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:06,319
but interestingly not wearing a cop uniform, but something more

563
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,680
like what a mechanic or a waterman would wear. But

564
00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:13,319
he'd come up and blitz attack them, banging on the window,

565
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,160
demanding driver's licenses, interestingly never asking for registrations, which a

566
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,359
real cop would ask for. And what I can't figure

567
00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:24,759
out is the FBIS told me this over the years,

568
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:25,440
they had.

569
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:27,039
Speaker 8: Dozens and dozens of reports.

570
00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:32,039
Speaker 2: Why was the FBI and the National Park Service never

571
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,799
able to put together the fact that this is all

572
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,759
the same guy. These couples coming forward and saying we're parked,

573
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:44,160
we're making out, and all of a sudden there's this short, stocky,

574
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,240
very beefy guy, only five to five pounding on the window,

575
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:51,920
demanding driver's licenses, telling us we're in the wrong place,

576
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,839
or that we're not supposed to be there, like a

577
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,680
cop would or a National Park Service ranger would.

578
00:33:59,119 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 10: It.

579
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 8: Why didn't they ever revisit.

580
00:34:01,839 --> 00:34:06,839
Speaker 2: Him after they gave him the polygraph back in eighty eight?

581
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,559
Speaker 8: He was a really righteous suspect.

582
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,519
Speaker 2: This guy checked so many boxes in the Colonial Parkway murders.

583
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 8: It's scary.

584
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 7: I need a polygraph. That could be a whole another session.

585
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,079
Speaker 9: But the reality is, depending on what you're asked, in

586
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,719
the order you're asked it, it could change whether or

587
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,880
not you could pass a polygraph. So again, if he's

588
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,000
just asked, were you here at this time? And if

589
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,400
he wasn't, he could pass that question. So what would

590
00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,159
y'all like to see from law enforcement?

591
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,519
Speaker 7: Now? What would you like to see them do it?

592
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: From my point of view, the lack of transparency is

593
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:44,880
just appalling.

594
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 8: They would have been so much better off.

595
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: And I did marketing and communications for thirty years. I'm

596
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,159
not a law enforcement person and we're not investigators, as

597
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,119
Kristen said, but they would have been better off back

598
00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:01,639
on January eighth, if they had said, we questioned this

599
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,920
guy in nineteen eighty eight, and we didn't have DNA

600
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,760
back then, and he passed a polygraph exam. I think

601
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,719
they would have been better off if they just sucked

602
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:12,800
it up and.

603
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:13,559
Speaker 8: Took their lumps.

604
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 2: We understand that a case like this has got problems

605
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,880
and complications that have occurred. It shouldn't be required that

606
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,679
Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas and local and extremely well

607
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,599
informed people from the media and the press, that we're

608
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,519
suddenly saying, you're skipping over some really important details here, folks, yep,

609
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,639
and that actually, and this saddens me to say this, because,

610
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,719
believe it or not, I see myself as a supporter

611
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:45,880
of law enforcement.

612
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,519
Speaker 8: I want to help, we want to help, yes.

613
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: But when they failed to deal with things in a

614
00:35:54,039 --> 00:36:01,320
straightforward manner, good, bad, and indifferent, they're building distrust.

615
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 8: One of the.

616
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 2: Things we just did two live podcast events in Virginia,

617
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,880
both of which sold out immediately and were very successful.

618
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,440
We got a lot of support, which we very much appreciated.

619
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:16,679
But one of the things people said at these live

620
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,480
podcast events we presented on the case, then we took

621
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:20,480
an hour of questions.

622
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,679
Speaker 8: At the end of each session.

623
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: People said to us Kristen and Bill, you're the only

624
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:33,719
people that are answering questions honestly about the Colonial Parkway murders.

625
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,159
I don't know how the heck two podcasters and one

626
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:40,360
of whom was the brother of one of the victims.

627
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:44,280
I don't know how it falls to us, but people

628
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,199
are saying, no one from law enforcement will answer these

629
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,360
questions honestly.

630
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:51,679
Speaker 7: Again, that give you another session.

631
00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 9: Thanks Nancy, You're welcome, Nancy Grace, come see meet podcast everybody.

632
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,320
Because I think social media is a powerful thing. And

633
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,119
I will just say this and not to change anything

634
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:11,559
that you just said, but I think there is power

635
00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:16,159
in hearing from Kathy's brother and in a way that

636
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,719
law enforcement couldn't do it. I can talk about my

637
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,559
sisters like nobody else, and I think that, to me

638
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,039
is what draws people to you. And then when we

639
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,880
hear from your friend and your partner in every sense

640
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,440
of the word in this investigation, and y'all keep saying

641
00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:37,760
you're not investigators to make a point, but I am, and.

642
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 7: I will tell you, yes, you are.

643
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 8: You are.

644
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,519
Speaker 9: So when you talk about social media and that powerful presence,

645
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,599
there are pages that the families have put up and

646
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,400
y'all have championed, so let them know how to find

647
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,239
those pages too.

648
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a lot of social media pages regards

649
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,719
the case. We have Colonial Parkway Murders, which is all

650
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,840
of the information that you could possibly want. We have

651
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:10,159
our mind over Murder podcast page. But we also have

652
00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:14,760
family members of the victims who started social media pages

653
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:19,159
before we ever hit the scene, and Keith Call and

654
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,840
Cassandra Haley's families started a social media page called whatever

655
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,239
Happened to Richard, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. And we

656
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,880
also have a second page run by the families called

657
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,079
Colonial Parkway Murder. I'm sorry Colonial Parkway Victim's gone, but

658
00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:38,199
not forgotten. We also run our own websites, Colonial Parkway

659
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,599
Murders dot com and mindover Murder podcast dot com. We

660
00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:44,840
are very active in those spaces and we are attempting

661
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,199
to do everything that we can to get out the

662
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,719
information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. And we encourage anyone

663
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,559
who has any information at all of any variety to

664
00:38:55,679 --> 00:39:00,000
please come forward to us, either anonymously or with an

665
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,320
I AM attached to it, and tell us what you

666
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,480
think you may know. There is no detail that is

667
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:05,119
too small.

668
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:09,559
Speaker 2: In this case, we got tips, major tips in the

669
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:13,239
Colonial Park murders a year little less than a year

670
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,480
ago at the last crime con. Now, there was a

671
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,599
bit of a kerfuffle with the FBI because I didn't

672
00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:24,800
have all the particulars. It took me a little time

673
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,119
to track the husband and wife team who were here

674
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,519
at crime Con in Orlando, and things got a little heated,

675
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,320
and the FBI threatened to bring me up on federal

676
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:43,239
obstruction of justice charges. My response, and my late mom

677
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,440
again would not be proud of me, was if you

678
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:53,360
go right ahead, because I said, as I said to

679
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,760
the FBI, on what planet am I going to be

680
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,079
withholding information in my sister's unsolved murder case?

681
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 8: That doesn't make any sense.

682
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:05,639
Speaker 7: Yeah, you've shared more than he has.

683
00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 8: Yeah.

684
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,679
Speaker 2: Now, I was ultimately able to track these wonderful people

685
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,159
down and get their information to the FBI, and we

686
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,280
smooth things out a little bit. So I think I'm

687
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,079
not on the Christmas card list anymore, but I'm not

688
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:24,280
being actively threatened with being brought up on charges.

689
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 7: I think that's a good segue.

690
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 9: I think we should honor the victims and talk about

691
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:29,480
them a little bit.

692
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's really important to remember the fact

693
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:36,599
that thirty seven years have passed five for these cases,

694
00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:39,920
and that is for Kathy and Becky in particular. And

695
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:41,760
what we put up on the screen in front of

696
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,440
you is the ages that these victims would be now

697
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,360
had they lift And I want to very quickly name

698
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,480
the victims in the ages that they would currently be.

699
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:52,079
Robin Edwards, who was fourteen when she died, would be

700
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:55,760
fifty one today. Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three,

701
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,880
Sandra Haley would be fifty four, Marian Powell, whose case

702
00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:02,840
may be connected as well, would be fifty four years old.

703
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,320
Keith Call would be fifty six, Daniel Lower would be

704
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,480
fifty six, David Nobling would be fifty seven, Becky Dawski

705
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:13,760
would be fifty nine. Brian Pattenger, whose case may also

706
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,840
be connected, would be sixty one, Terry Hall would be

707
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,880
sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five years old.

708
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 7: It's amazing, Yeah, thank you for that. And you're gonna

709
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,000
have an opportunity in a little bit.

710
00:41:28,039 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 9: We're gonna open up the house lights and you're gonna

711
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,239
be able to ask Kristen and Bill questions yourself and

712
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,440
they will answer anything. You see how obviously how open

713
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,800
and honest they are. They would love to talk to

714
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,519
you and have questions. So while you're thinking about those

715
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,679
and come into the two microphones, I will tell you something.

716
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:47,519
Speaker 7: Both about the two of them.

717
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 9: So Kristin Dilley is one of those people. If she

718
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,920
sees that maybe you've had a rough case or a

719
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:59,000
rough day or something may be going on, she checks

720
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,360
in with you immediately. And that's the kind of thing

721
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,800
to me that is just extraordinary about her. Bill Thomas

722
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,199
is no different. Walk Na decided, David and I decided

723
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,239
we were gonna take the twins on a trip, and

724
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:18,599
we got into New York and our car broke down.

725
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,880
Bill lives in Connecticut, calls me immediately and says, hey,

726
00:42:24,199 --> 00:42:25,159
you need me to come get you.

727
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 7: You can stay at the house.

728
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 9: This is who they are, So I just want you

729
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,159
to know that it's not something they do part time.

730
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,039
They are friend and just have your back at all times.

731
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:40,199
So we have somebody at a microphone, so if we want.

732
00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:42,199
Speaker 7: To open up the house lights so y'all can see them.

733
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, Hi, my name is Rachel, my mom and my

734
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,800
brother and I are here and we all live in Richmond,

735
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,920
so we're familiar with the case and particularly familiar with

736
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,320
you guys. What I want to ask is about the

737
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,119
inability of law enforcement to put Allen Wade Wilmercy and

738
00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:02,239
Ann to COOTIS and what sorts of alternatives this there?

739
00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:04,920
Have they talked to his son or any of his

740
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:07,920
children about providing DNA there?

741
00:43:09,159 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a thank you. It's a fantastic question,

742
00:43:13,519 --> 00:43:17,400
and we appreciate it. And I think this is going

743
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,039
to be a much larger issue than just the Colonial

744
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:25,719
Parkway murders because Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was never charged

745
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,840
with a crime and certainly not a felony during the

746
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,119
time that he was alive.

747
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 8: According to the FBI and the Virginia State.

748
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: Police, they cannot put his DNA into the CODIS system.

749
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,639
And we just think this is flat out wrong. Alan

750
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:52,639
Wade Wilmer Senior has been dead since twenty seventeen. What

751
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,119
civil rights are we possibly protecting?

752
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 8: Guy's been dead for six years on seven now.

753
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,559
Speaker 2: We have a lot of friends that have been incredibly

754
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:13,400
helpful to the case and helping moving it forward. Beyond

755
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:18,400
just our good friend Nancy here and so one of

756
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,039
our law enforcement partners who's worked this case and is

757
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:26,119
now retired in a bit more free to speak. Frankly,

758
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,639
he had said, Bill, I think the FBI is your

759
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,199
biggest problem in terms of roadblocks, but he said the

760
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,039
Virginia State Police are probably a close second, and he said,

761
00:44:41,639 --> 00:44:45,920
you can't lose sight of this fact that they don't

762
00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:49,480
want to put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, and

763
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:52,960
they're using this as an excuse because if they put

764
00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:56,519
Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's DNA into the CODA system, it

765
00:44:56,559 --> 00:45:01,519
will light up like an f and Christmas other unsolved

766
00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:05,480
murders and wait for it. There may be even some

767
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:09,559
cases in Virginia that other people have gone to jail

768
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,119
for that are actually committed by Wilmer. We believe this

769
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:17,480
guy may be involved and his brothers as well, in

770
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:19,199
cases extending.

771
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 8: Back forty years.

772
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 2: This guy has literally been getting away with murder, perhaps

773
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,400
for as long as four decades. So there's a big

774
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,760
incentive for law enforcement to say, oh, oh, we can't

775
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,480
put the indo cotis. I actually think we need to

776
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:39,960
be adjusting the rules for CODIS. If this SOB is dead,

777
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:42,840
let's just put it in there and let the chips

778
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,719
fall where they may. But you'll notice that there's a

779
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,679
discomfort on the part of law enforcement to treating this

780
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,480
case in a transparent way. That's at least the third

781
00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:57,559
time I've used that word today, and so that's a

782
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,639
real challenge for us. And we actually don't have an

783
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:02,199
acceptable answer right now.

784
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:03,039
Speaker 8: I wish we did.

785
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,519
Speaker 2: Ultimately, we think we're going to have to pursue maybe

786
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:10,679
even legislation. And here's another crazy thing. We have fifty

787
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,480
different sets of rules. Every state in the Union has

788
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:20,280
different rules for how they handled DNA and CODIS. We

789
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,559
just talked about that on a Monday's episode of Mind

790
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:28,159
Over Murder Lindsay Wade, who is a fantastic, very accomplished

791
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:31,360
investigator whose book is nominated as one of the best

792
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,159
books of the year. Her book in My DNA, and

793
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:37,639
she explained to us, not that we completely understood at all,

794
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,000
and not that some of the answers were not unacceptable,

795
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,519
but she was explaining how we ended up with this

796
00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:50,639
bizarre system where instead of having one set of rules,

797
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,679
you know, like a real country, as opposed to fifty

798
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,320
different sets of rules.

799
00:46:56,559 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 8: And I think we the big we need to do better.

800
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 2: It's our intention when we salve the Colonial Parkway murders.

801
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 8: Note the optimism.

802
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: I actually want to pivot to this larger issue of

803
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,239
there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides

804
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,760
in the United States that ought to be a national

805
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,719
scandal at this point.

806
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:16,559
Speaker 8: Think about it.

807
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:20,559
Speaker 2: A quarter of a million, and that numbers probably low

808
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:27,320
cold case homicides in the United States. That's insane and

809
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,639
as Lindsay was explaining to us on Monday's episode, fifty

810
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:32,800
different sets of rules.

811
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 8: This makes no sense whatsoever.

812
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,679
Speaker 7: Right, Yes, ma'am, yess. Just to follow up, my name

813
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:39,159
is Anne.

814
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:44,039
Speaker 3: Is there a way to legislatively in Virginia do something

815
00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:45,119
about the Codis rule.

816
00:47:46,639 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 2: This is something we're starting to explore, and this is

817
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,199
something that our listeners supporters are very interested in taking

818
00:47:54,199 --> 00:47:54,719
a look at you.

819
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 10: I think you'd have a lot of support from this

820
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,880
audience and from the whole of crime con.

821
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, all, just like change the law.

822
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah, my name is Jim. I have two quick questions.

823
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,320
One is, has anybody talked to his family about putting

824
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,039
their DNA in like a twenty three and me kind

825
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:18,239
of database so we could do some genetic testing ahead.

826
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,559
Speaker 3: We have been in touch with his family, and they

827
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:26,039
have been They're appalled by what they have learned about

828
00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:28,800
their family member, and they do want to help in

829
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,840
every way that they possibly can, and so we are

830
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,880
working actively to talk with the family, and because they

831
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,039
are willing to help, we hope that someplace they're willing

832
00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:42,039
to go. Bill, I know you spent more time talking

833
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:46,000
to his family members than I have. Is that something

834
00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:47,960
that they've indicated they're willing to do.

835
00:48:48,159 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 2: They seemed willing to do anything to help, which is

836
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:53,760
I never I thought.

837
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 8: I talked to Christen about this. I said, I'm now talking.

838
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: To the potential serial killers family who this person may have.

839
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,519
Speaker 8: Killed our sister.

840
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 2: It's just like, Wow, I didn't expect it to go

841
00:49:09,679 --> 00:49:14,079
into that twist the attorney place, but they seem very

842
00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:17,519
willing to help in any way, and they've actually been lovely.

843
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,079
Speaker 8: And the truth is we see them as victims.

844
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:25,519
Speaker 2: Too, and they're not responsible for something that their ex

845
00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:30,599
husband father in law did, but boy talk about a

846
00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:34,480
situation that they hadn't anticipated. But they seem willing to

847
00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:37,800
do anything to help law enforcement get to the bottom

848
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:38,280
of the case.

849
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 11: And it's something I've always wondered about You've been working

850
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:46,079
on your sister's case for forty years. It's solved, So

851
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:48,719
now what do you do? Is there a letdown?

852
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:49,119
Speaker 8: Is there?

853
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 7: Sorry, I can tell you what he's gonna do.

854
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:56,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not there yet, but he's just getting started. Yeah.

855
00:49:57,159 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 8: I actually would like to.

856
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:02,599
Speaker 2: Work on this these broader issues because it's funny. We've

857
00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:05,880
interviewed a lot of people from other cases. We don't

858
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,760
just talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, and boy, it's

859
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,920
pretty easy I find to put myself in the shoes

860
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,760
of somebody who's gone through something somewhat similar, because it's

861
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,679
an experience that we all share. What John Walsh says,

862
00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:24,440
the you're invited to join the club that no one

863
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,360
wants to be invited to join. So I think our

864
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,840
intent would be to broaden out to these other issues.

865
00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:31,599
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

866
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 8: Yep.

867
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 9: The remarkable thing is Kathy will be responsible through you

868
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:40,880
of helping thousands and thousands of families. Yeah, now, to

869
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,440
me is a remarkable thing, and what a legacy for

870
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:46,400
both of you. Yeah, because she wanted to serve her

871
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:47,440
country and she is.

872
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, that's true. Thank you.

873
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,599
Speaker 12: Hi, my name is Crystal. Thank you for doing this.

874
00:50:53,679 --> 00:50:56,320
And I listen to your podcast. I really like it.

875
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,239
My question relates to your the Colonial Parkway murder, but

876
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,119
also just Virginia more broadly. I was in grad school

877
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:06,199
in Virginia in the nineteen nineties, so I recall it's

878
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:08,519
a dangerous place. I didn't know at the time, but

879
00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:11,039
it's a dangerous place. I still am a Virginia resident,

880
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,960
and just being aware of whether it's these cases and

881
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:17,760
just listening to you all talk about the challenges that

882
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,719
you've faced in trying to just get more information and

883
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:24,320
help law enforcement, but then also the Route twenty nine, Stoker,

884
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:27,719
the Shannando. I'm leaving a few others off, but the

885
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,559
more I learn, I just I'm learning that it seems

886
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:34,920
like there's a lot of cold cases, potential frankly serial

887
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,960
killers that have been roaming around Virginia for several decades.

888
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,760
So my question is there is anybody looking into this

889
00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:45,079
or more broadly, like is there in other states you'll

890
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:47,199
have like the state police that may have a task

891
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,800
for it, the two people that are trying to put

892
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,239
together all the code cases or something, and I'm not

893
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,079
hearing anything like that in Virginia. Just seems like it's

894
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:58,719
just this black hole of cases that are clearly at

895
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,159
least about three or four major serial killer type cases,

896
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,880
and they've just gone into a black hole. So I'm

897
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,280
just just knowing that you guys are aware of and

898
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,000
involved in a lot of what's going on in Virginia.

899
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,199
I'm just curious if you have anything to say or

900
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,440
to share with those of us who are in Virginia

901
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,239
in response to that.

902
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 3: It is weird, isn't it. How are so many serial

903
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,679
killers in Virginia and a lot of them were operating

904
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,000
at the same time. If you look at someone like

905
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,880
Randy Taylor, who was operating at the same time as

906
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,480
Jesse Matthew, for example, in the same area around Charlottesville,

907
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:36,599
how inexplicable is it that you have two serial killers

908
00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:38,960
in the exact same area, right around the exact same time.

909
00:52:39,079 --> 00:52:42,519
It is a little weird. We do have some podcasting

910
00:52:42,639 --> 00:52:45,480
colleagues who are also interested in looking into the very

911
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:48,320
things that you've brought up, and so we do work

912
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,760
with them and explore these kind of concepts of why

913
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,119
are there so many serial killers in this area of Virginia.

914
00:52:55,159 --> 00:52:58,440
Why hasn't more been done to try to figure out why?

915
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,320
Precisely that might be but yeah, that is definitely something

916
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,840
that we're interested in, and we have been watching with

917
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,920
satisfaction the creation of the Virginia Cold Case Database and

918
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,599
are very interested in seeing how that database grows and

919
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:15,000
develops over the next couple of years. That if you

920
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,079
want a good afternoon's worth of reading and go into

921
00:53:17,079 --> 00:53:20,360
the Virginia Cold Case Database for a little bit. It's interesting,

922
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,760
but it's also kind of hair raising.

923
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 12: Just like you said, is anyone working those cases.

924
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 2: We think there's more of an effort being made now,

925
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,360
and of course it's exciting when you start to see

926
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,079
some solves and family members are getting answer.

927
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 8: So our sense of it is that more.

928
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: Resources are being put into these cases, certainly more than

929
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,320
in recent years.

930
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 13: Yes, Hi, my name's Christina. First, I want to say

931
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,000
I really admire all the dedication and love and the

932
00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:53,400
way you've honored your sister.

933
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 7: We should all be.

934
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 3: So lucky to have a brother like you.

935
00:53:57,159 --> 00:54:00,599
Speaker 8: I mean, agreed, thank you.

936
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:04,679
Speaker 13: I was just curious if this way, senior, if you

937
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,920
guys have gotten any facts about his life, did he

938
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,679
have like domestic violence, animal cruelty? The neighbors complaining.

939
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 2: What we're getting so far and we're not experts on

940
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,280
all things Alan Wade Wilmer Senior.

941
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 8: But there almost seem like two. He's living two lives.

942
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 2: His family and friends and people that knew him in

943
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:31,320
Lancaster County, which is a couple hours north of Williamsburg,

944
00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:37,559
they don't for the most part, they don't have any

945
00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:42,000
experiences with him that are consistent with the idea of

946
00:54:42,039 --> 00:54:45,519
him being a serial killer. Now they do understand that

947
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,599
he's definitely linked via DNA to the murder of at

948
00:54:48,679 --> 00:54:52,000
least three people, and I think there are more. But

949
00:54:52,199 --> 00:54:55,559
it almost sounds like after he was married for six years,

950
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:56,880
they were.

951
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,519
Speaker 8: Divorced, and.

952
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 2: After his divorce, as he would make his way down

953
00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:08,159
towards what Kristin calls the Tidewater area of Virginia where

954
00:55:08,159 --> 00:55:13,559
he's working with the boat fishing, crabbing, oystering, he seems

955
00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:19,719
to then move into this really extended dark period. Now

956
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:26,719
his family is potentially linked with other murders in Lancaster County,

957
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,039
also unsolved, and which extend back, and that's where we're

958
00:55:31,039 --> 00:55:35,920
getting the forty years from. But Wilmer's kind of acting out,

959
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:41,079
if you will, or being an active serial killer, seems

960
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:46,920
to be concentrated mostly when he's living down in the Hampton,

961
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,079
Virginia area, working on his boat.

962
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,079
Speaker 3: It's a real doctor Jackyl mister Hyde sort of thing.

963
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:56,559
If you'll pardon the English teacher reference for a couple

964
00:55:56,559 --> 00:55:56,960
of minutes.

965
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 8: Yes, my name's Emily.

966
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 14: I was actually really curious how you decided to start

967
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,360
the podcast. Was there something about your work on the

968
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,440
cases that made you think, hey, we can reach a

969
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,280
wider audience with the podcast, or was there another reason

970
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,320
why you decided to start the podcast.

971
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 8: Oh.

972
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:23,559
Speaker 2: I think it's because I had guested on many of

973
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:27,960
the podcasts here on now we're calling it Creator's Row

974
00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:34,159
Podcast Row, and a number of those podcasters said, Bill,

975
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:35,079
you're really good at this.

976
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 8: You should do a podcast of your own.

977
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 2: And Kristin heard them sometimes even say it on the air,

978
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:41,639
and she.

979
00:56:41,679 --> 00:56:43,599
Speaker 8: Said, yeah, you should do a podcast.

980
00:56:44,119 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: I said, let's do a podcast together, and we thought

981
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:47,960
it would.

982
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,519
Speaker 8: Be a logical outgrowth of the work.

983
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,519
Speaker 2: That we were doing together to move the Colonial Parkway

984
00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:56,519
murders forward and one of the things that we've tried

985
00:56:56,519 --> 00:56:59,119
to do. And for those of you that are listened

986
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:02,760
to the podcast, we've met all these amazing people along

987
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:03,159
the way.

988
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:04,519
Speaker 8: You meet somebody like.

989
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: Cheryl mccoum, and she's got this fascinating background as a

990
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:17,079
real life CSI. So not only is she helping us

991
00:57:17,119 --> 00:57:21,239
and providing us with great advice and educating us quite frankly.

992
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,800
We then turn around and we said, hey, would you

993
00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:28,079
come on our new podcast and she says yes. And

994
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:32,440
so all these amazing people that we've met over the

995
00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:39,760
last fifteen years or so, we've asked them to.

996
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 8: Come on our show and talk.

997
00:57:40,199 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: We talk with authors and investigators and forensics experts, and

998
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,440
a lot of what we're doing is we're talking with

999
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:51,800
people that we would like to get to know better

1000
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,400
and learn from and taking the audience along for the ride.

1001
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,119
And I think people have really enjoyed that as a result.

1002
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 3: And we thank you all very much for coming along

1003
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:04,039
on the ride with us. We really appreciate you. Thank

1004
00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:06,519
you for coming to speaking our booth and to pick

1005
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:09,119
up some of this information about Ellen wid Wilmer Senior.

1006
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,000
We are on Creator's Row boot sixty one, right next

1007
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:12,400
to Mac.

1008
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:15,039
Speaker 9: I was just gonna say, I know, there's two people

1009
00:58:15,119 --> 00:58:18,440
still at the microphone, but we literally have fifteen seconds left.

1010
00:58:18,639 --> 00:58:21,119
We have to move so the other people can set up,

1011
00:58:21,519 --> 00:58:25,800
but they are on creator's row. Please come by and

1012
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:27,840
talk to them. They need to talk to you, ma'am.

1013
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,880
So I'm going to make sure y'all connect. Okay, absolutely,

1014
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:34,320
Thank y'all so much.

1015
00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:35,159
Speaker 8: Thank you.

1016
00:58:37,119 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 9: Man. That would cool.

1017
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 5: We hope you enjoyed the session.

1018
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,599
Speaker 6: As a reminder, if you're heading out for another session

1019
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,760
or taking a quick break, please collect all your personal

1020
00:58:55,800 --> 00:59:00,599
belongings before exiting for security purposes. No bad or personal

1021
00:59:00,599 --> 00:59:03,119
items may be left unattended at any time.

1022
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 5: Thank you for your cooperation.

1023
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1024
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:22,880
Another Dog Productions.

1025
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1026
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:29,559
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

1027
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:32,239
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

1028
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

1029
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,639
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

1030
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

1031
00:59:43,519 --> 00:59:45,320
Murders on Facebook.

1032
00:59:45,079 --> 00:59:48,119
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1033
00:59:48,159 --> 00:59:49,800
Bill Thomas five six.

1034
00:59:50,239 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

1035
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: About