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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 22 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:58.200 and live the Chumba Laine. 23 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.240 No, We're necessary, I Daly voidhever everybody loss comes of 24 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:01.000 conference to being plus. 25 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.719 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 26 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.200 written about him. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.920 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.040 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.120 Good Evening. A Civil War veteran who perpetrated one of 32 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.680 the most ghastly mass slaughters in the annals of US crime. 33 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:54.280 A nineteenth century female serial killer whose victims included three 34 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.799 husbands and six of her own children. A Gilded Age 35 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.879 bluebeard who did away with as many as fifty wives 36 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.640 throughout the country. A decorated World War One hero who 37 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:09.199 orchestrated a murder that stunned jazz age America. While other 38 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:13.199 infamous homicides from the same eras the Lizzie Borden slangs, 39 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.840 for example, or the thrill killing committed by Leopold and Loeb, 40 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:21.520 have entered into our cultural mythology, these four equally sensational 41 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.639 crimes have largely faded from public memory. A quartette of 42 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:30.439 gripping historical true crime narratives. Butcher's Work restores these once 43 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.879 notorious cases to vimid, dramatic life. The book that we're 44 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.319 featuring this evening is Butcher's work, True Crime Tales of 45 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.479 American Murder and Madness, with my special guests, retired professor 46 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.080 and author Harold Scheckter. Welcome back to the program, and 47 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:49.159 thank you very much for this interview. Harold Scheckter, Well, 48 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.000 thank you for inviting me. Always happy to be here. 49 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:54.080 It's always a pleasure to get to talk to you. 50 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.800 And congratulations on this recent book, Butcher's Work. 51 00:02:58.919 --> 00:02:59.199 Thank you. 52 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:03.120 First off, tell us about the four tales that are included. 53 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.360 What are the names of the four parts? 54 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.639 If you don't mind, well, I'll tell you the subject. 55 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:14.039 First one is a case of Anton Probes. Actually that 56 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:17.240 part is called Butcher's Work, which is a title of 57 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:20.000 the whole book. You know, as you said in the introduction, 58 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:26.439 I mean Probes committed arguably the most horrific mass murder 59 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.879 of the American nineteenth century. Yes, a second part, called 60 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.599 The Poison Fiend, is about a female serial killer named 61 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:39.520 Lydia Sherman. Who, as you also indicated, poison three husbands 62 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.639 and six of her own children. The third part, which 63 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.960 I call Lady Killer, is about this infamous Bluebeard killer 64 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.439 of the late nineteenth century. Name well, he had went 65 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.280 by various names, but the one that's kind of gone 66 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:56.240 down in the history books is Johann Hawk. And the 67 00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:00.319 last case, which I call the Ragged Stranger for reasons 68 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.800 I will go on to explain, is about a World 69 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:09.080 War One hero named Carl Wanderer, who, as you also indicated, 70 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.840 orchestrated the murder of his wife and that became this 71 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:18.439 very very sensational case in Chicago in the early nineteen twenties. 72 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.199 Let's get to you right in the forward, which is 73 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:26.240 very very interesting and sets the reader to understand why 74 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.839 you pick these four stories in particular. In December nineteen 75 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.120 twenty seven, you're write a person named William Edward Hickman, 76 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.079 a nineteen year old, hatched a kidnapping scheme to come 77 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:40.360 up with tuition for his dream, which was seminary school. Yeah, 78 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:42.720 and he went and he presented himself at the Mount 79 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.000 Vernon Junior High School in Los Angeles. Tell us what 80 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.439 he said to the secretary, what he did was what 81 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:49.120 was he there for. 82 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:52.680 He was there in order to abduct the daughter of 83 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:56.040 a bank president. President of a bank he once worked out, 84 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.040 and her name was Marion Parker. And he managed to 85 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.199 let the school administrators he was posing as someone who 86 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.720 is going to take her. He said her father was 87 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.560 in a car accident. Anyway, they let her go with him. 88 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.720 He kept her captive and sent ransom notes to her father. 89 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.120 And while he had her in captivity, he treated her 90 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.680 very well, you know, comparatively speaking. You know, he would 91 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:25.079 when she got bored, he would take her out to drives. 92 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.000 He would buy her ice cream. Then, when the father 93 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:33.079 finally agreed to meet his ransom demands, they arranged for 94 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.120 a place to meet Hickman, who signed a lot of 95 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:39.040 his letters the Fox. He liked to call himself the Fox. 96 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.680 The arranger was that they were going to both drive 97 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.519 up separately in cars. Father would hand over the money. 98 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.279 Hickman would then let the little girl out of a 99 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.160 car and drive away. So the father showed up handed 100 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.360 Hickman the bag of money. The father could see in 101 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:55.560 the back of the car or a passenger seat. I think, actually, 102 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:57.800 you know, it looked, you know, his daughter, her eyes 103 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:00.680 were open, But as soon as he handed the money 104 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:04.000 to Hickman, Hickman lost the little girl out of the car, 105 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.959 and it turned out that Marion. He had killed Marion, 106 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:12.000 disemboweled her, cut off her limbs, and sown her eyes 107 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.839 open to make it look as if sure alive. You know, 108 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:20.319 this incredibly unspeakable crime. It's not even possible to imagine 109 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:23.959 how her father would have reacted. Anyway, when Hickman was caught, 110 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:26.639 he sort of boasted that he was going to be 111 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:29.800 remembered even more than Leopold and Loeb, And in many 112 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.920 ways his crime was much more horrific than Leopold and Loeb's. 113 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:36.399 I mean, Leopold and Loeb, you know, it was an 114 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:40.079 awful crime. Yes, they also abducted a young boy and 115 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:43.160 murdered him, but again, I mean, the grotesque nature of 116 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.399 what Hickman did really unparalleled in the annals of American crime. 117 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.759 So it was not an unreasonable expectation that he would 118 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.120 be remembered the way Leopold and lob were. But in 119 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.639 fact he's been totally relegated to obscurity, whereas Leopold and 120 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:03.000 Loeb and become part of cultural mythology. Movies, have been 121 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:07.120 made about from Alfred Hitchcock's Rope and a movie called Compulsion, 122 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.480 which was based on a best selling book by Meyer. Eleven. 123 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:12.720 There have been a number of movies made about Leopold 124 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:14.920 and Love. You know, their crime is considered to be 125 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.800 one of the great crimes of the twentieth century. So 126 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.959 what this illustrates to me something I've been interested in 127 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.279 for a very long time, which is why among really 128 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.439 I have to say, the countless numbers of horrific crimes 129 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.439 that occur, crimes that very sensational in their own time 130 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.519 and place that garner a lot of media attention, why 131 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.480 they fade into obscurity, and why this infinitesimal number of 132 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.279 other crimes, many of which are less horrific than these 133 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:48.439 other crimes, become, as they say, these permanent parts of 134 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:53.079 our criminal mythology. My previous book, Maniac, which is about 135 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.040 a guy named Andrew Keiho who in nineteen twenty seven 136 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:00.920 blew up the new public school in this small town 137 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.160 of Bath, Michigan, killing care I think thirty eight children, 138 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.519 a number of teachers. You know, this most horrific school 139 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.160 massacre in our history that's been totally forgotten, even people 140 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:13.240 who live in Michigan. Many of them have ever heard 141 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:16.160 of it. So so that was, you know, my motive 142 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.279 for resurrecting these other crimes. You know, all four crimes 143 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:23.000 that I cover in the book, Butcher's work were great 144 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:27.319 media sensations. You know, some were covered by the international press, 145 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.639 and yet you know, after a very short while they 146 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.039 were relegated to total obscurity. And you know, they're all 147 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.159 very compelling stories. So yeah, I decided to write a 148 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:38.919 book about them. 149 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.600 You write about why this might occur, and some crimes 150 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.759 symbolize a what you call a shadow of a given moment. Yeah, 151 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.039 can you explain, Well, I. 152 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:53.440 Mean, I think the crimes that do you know, grip 153 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.000 of the national psyche, let's say there was I have 154 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:01.120 some symbolic meaning for the time, and that reflect you know, 155 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.440 these free floating fears and anxieties of the moment. For instance, 156 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.799 in the case I just mentioned the Andrew Keijo case, 157 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.840 which happened in nineteen twenty seven, you know, school massacres 158 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:17.240 and suicide bombings, because that also featured in the case. 159 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.720 You know, these weren't the kinds of crimes that Americans 160 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:23.840 of the time were particularly concerned about. You know, it 161 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.600 just seems so weird and anomalous that it didn't really 162 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:29.480 strike a deep chord with the public. There was a 163 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.320 recognition that it was a horrendous crime. I mean, it 164 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.360 was covered in the front page of the New York Times, 165 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:38.039 you know, but again, it didn't somehow embody the deepest 166 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:42.840 fears and anxieties of that cultural moment, whereas Leopold and Low, 167 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:47.559 for example, they to my mind, what made them such 168 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:53.360 powerful symbols is that they seem to personify this great 169 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.840 anxiety that was rife in the culture at that time. 170 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.600 You know, this is the jazz age, you know, when 171 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:03.320 this this great social revolution was going on, and there 172 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.039 was this widespread among Middle America well among a lot 173 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.399 of adults about what they call the flaming youth, you know, 174 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.320 the out of control young people who are living these 175 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:17.159 degenerate lives. And Leopold and Lobe seemed to be the 176 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:21.480 nightmarish realization of that anxiety, you know, the same way 177 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:25.759 that Charles Manson the sixties seemed like every parent's worst 178 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.080 nightmare of sex and the blood crazed hippies come to life. 179 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.279 So I think it has a lot to do with 180 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:34.039 that's what I meant by the shadow side of the culture, 181 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:38.480 you know, these dark, underlying fears, and then suddenly some 182 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:42.360 crime is committed that seems to be the confirmation, you know, 183 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:46.159 of all these nightmares. Yes, that becomes very significant part 184 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:47.200 of the history of the moment. 185 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:51.399 Let's talk about Anton Probst and in eighteen sixty three, 186 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:54.240 he arrives in the port of New York along with 187 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.720 many other people, and right at this receiving center. There's 188 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.200 some opportunity right away as soon as he gets into 189 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.000 the country. Tell us what happens soon as he does 190 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.840 Anton Probe get into the country and what does he do? 191 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.000 Well? Probes derived you know, thought height of the Civil 192 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:13.840 War and when immigrants would arrive in New York City, 193 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:17.360 there are all these recruiting stations that were set up 194 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.039 right at the waterfront, and as soon as these young 195 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.879 men would get off the boat, they would be approached 196 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.240 by recruiting agents who would offer them a bounty, a 197 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.000 few hundred dollars, as I remember, you know, sign up 198 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.000 for some regiment. So that's what happened with Probes. He immediately, 199 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:38.519 you know, became a soldier in the Union Army during 200 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.559 the Civil War. But he also became what was called 201 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.759 a bounty jumper. There were these young men who would 202 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.399 sign up for one regiment, collect this bounty and then dessert, 203 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.200 and then go and sign up with another regiment, collect 204 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.120 the bounty, dessert, et cetera, et cetera. Some of them, 205 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:57.759 you know, manage to make a lot of money doing that. 206 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.799 So you know, that seems to be the case with 207 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.519 Propes too. We don't know a whole lot about his 208 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.679 background in Germany, but certainly from all the evidence of 209 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:10.360 his life in America, he was just all he cared 210 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:15.960 about was satisfying his own appetites, mostly for liquor and prostitutes. 211 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.960 He talked about after the war ended in eighteen sixty five, 212 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:23.159 and he had shot his right thumb off to avoid service. 213 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.039 So that's sort of talked about his character. But in 214 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.799 eighteen sixty five, he was trapping around, as you right, 215 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.360 and he ended up at the farmstead of a person 216 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.360 named Christopher Deering and his family. Yes, so he asked 217 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:38.159 him if they're looking for any workers, and he was 218 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:40.639 hired on for fifteen dollars a month at that time. 219 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.000 Tell us how long he lasted did you say? Three weeks? 220 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.600 He lasted what was the reason for that and what 221 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:47.960 did he do afterwards? 222 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.639 Well, he apparently Christopher Deering himself, you know, it was 223 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.759 a very tolerant, humane individual and took pity on Probes. 224 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:59.320 But Probes was a whiner and a grumbler and not 225 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:04.399 really much given to hard work. And the story Probes 226 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.120 told was he left because Deering had asked him to. 227 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:09.919 He was hired as a farm hand do some work 228 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.679 in the rain. And there's also some indication that Dearing's wife, 229 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.720 you know, that Probes kind of creeped out Dearing's wife 230 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.399 and she was just kind of uncomfortable having him around. Obviously, 231 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.559 her instincts turned out to be correct, although too late. 232 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:26.559 So yeah, so he was let go, and then, you know, 233 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.879 then he bummed around for a while, but again hard 234 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.039 to entirely trace his movements, you know. But again, Probes 235 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.120 was the kind of person who would work at a job, 236 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:40.200 blow all his money, gambling and drinking and whirring, and 237 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.039 then go look somewhere else for another job. They were 238 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.240 at some point he ended up back of the Deering farm, 239 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.120 and Deering, out of what turned out to be a 240 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:51.759 very misguided charity, re hired him, though at a slightly 241 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:52.639 lower salary. 242 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:56.480 You right that he hired him again for this ten 243 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.080 dollars a month rather than the fifteen dollars. But the 244 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.879 one thing that Anton Probes had noticed the first time 245 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.360 he was there for the first three weeks of employment, 246 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.039 he had noticed something about this Christopher Dearing that he 247 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.679 kept in his mind and especially factored in his decision 248 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.200 to come back the second time. 249 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:17.759 As you write, well, Deering had a partner who staked 250 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:20.639 him in this cattle business. And you know there were 251 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.679 times when Deering had a significant amount of money round 252 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:28.440 in order to purchase stock and so on livestock. And yeah, 253 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:34.159 Probes apparently Props was under the impression, again incorrect, that 254 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.919 Deering always had a lot of money in his house. 255 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.320 Yeah. Now, on April seventh, you write that Christopher Deering 256 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.200 went for his weekly three mile trip to town, but 257 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.080 on this particular date he was also to pick up 258 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:52.120 a relative at again that was arriving by boat and 259 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.639 Elizabeth Dolan, and Probes was working with another hand there, 260 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.200 ranch hand Cornelius Kerry or another farmhand, Corne Carrier. There 261 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.679 was the four kids, the two employees, and Christopher Dearing 262 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.440 and his wife. Well, anyway, the wife was left back 263 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:12.919 at the farm when he picked up his relative at 264 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.159 the boat, and then they returned to the farm. What 265 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:16.639 did they realize? 266 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.960 So, as you say, Deering went off on this weekly 267 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.600 errand into Philadelphia. They were living in a kind of 268 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:29.159 remote area called the Neck, and he was going to 269 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.399 have some business with his partner and then pick up 270 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.519 this relative of his who was coming for a visit. 271 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.320 When and again he left behind his wife I guess 272 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.600 four children, including an infant in her crib. One of 273 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:48.440 the children was off visiting his grandfather. And during this 274 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.399 young branchand who knew Probes very well. In fact, in 275 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.600 a way that was not uncommon at the time, they 276 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.799 shared a bed in the Deering house. Anyway, the way 277 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:03.240 right the book, I then cut to the discovery shortly thereafter. 278 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.000 I don't know if it's the next day or two 279 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:10.960 days later. Some neighbors became a little suspicious, because you know, 280 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.080 they hadn't seen any members of the family for a while. 281 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:18.279 Went over to the Deering farm and they discovered Christopher Dearing, 282 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.799 his relative, his wife, and the four children, including the infant, 283 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.679 all slaughtered. They'd all been slaughtered with an axe, except 284 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.120 for the infant. I think the infant had her head 285 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.000 bashed in, although maybe that was also a the axe. 286 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.080 But anyway, you know, this pile of mangled, slaughtered bodies, yes, 287 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.159 that had been putting the hate in the barn. Cornelius, 288 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.000 the young Cornelius was missing, and it became you know, 289 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.039 and the only one who was not around was Anton 290 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:51.759 Probes Cornelius would subsequently be Cornelius's body. He had also 291 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:56.120 been axe murdered, was subsequently found in a haystack some 292 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.200 distance from the house. So again this is this horrific 293 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:03.480 mass murder of the complete extermination of this entire family 294 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.000 except for the one kid who was lucky enough to 295 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.079 be away visiting his grandfather. Plus this adolescent I think 296 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:13.400 Cornelius was still in his change as our member or 297 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.599 in any case, you know, very very young, maybe his 298 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.160 early twenties. So this horrific mass slaughter, and you know, 299 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:24.839 in Probes and Probes was gone, and of course immediately 300 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.799 led to the search for Probes. He had again, this 301 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:29.960 is a number of days later, he had enough of 302 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.680 a head start the police and the citizens of Philadelphia, 303 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.680 you know, figured he'd really put a lot of distance 304 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.720 between himself and this horrific crime even returned to Germany, 305 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:46.480 you know, but Probes being this dull minded individual again 306 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.839 who was unable, you know, to think beyond his next 307 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.720 drink and his next night with a prostitute, had just 308 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.079 gone back to Philadelphia and was living in a boarding 309 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.279 house and lived in a tavern for a while, and 310 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.079 he was recognized and arrested in short order, you right. 311 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.640 One of the more fascinating parts or aspects of the 312 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.559 story is that there was an autopsy set up to 313 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:13.200 be conducted, and there was a mob of people really 314 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.799 wanting to see the victims, and they gather outside this building. 315 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.720 So very very strange, you. 316 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.720 Know, not really strange for better or worse. That's a 317 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.400 very very common occurrence when there are sensational crimes. You know. 318 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.839 One of the cases I wrote about before, I think 319 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.440 you and I had spoken about it was this female 320 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.799 serial murderer in Indiana named Bell Gunnis, Yes, who operated 321 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:40.799 what came to be called this murder farm. She would 322 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.319 lure she was Norwegian, and she would after, you know, 323 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.799 killing a number of husbands for the insurance money. She 324 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.519 was living alone in this farm, and she would place 325 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:58.559 classified advertisements in these Scandinavian language newspapers and lure these men, 326 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:03.160 lonely men bachelor to her farm with the promise of 327 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.319 marrying them and having them become part owners of the farm. 328 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.359 And then she would murder them and rob them and 329 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.480 cut up their bodies and bury them in her yard. 330 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.559 And when her crimes were discovered and they dug up 331 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.079 all these dismembered body parts, they stuck for a while, 332 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.640 you know, they stuck the body parts in an outbuilding 333 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.759 for a while. And the Sunday, the weekend after these 334 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.359 cars were discovered, thousands of people showed up at her farm. 335 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:33.279 They're actually postcards you can buy on eBay showing these 336 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.480 long lines of people, men, women, children standing outside this outbuilding, 337 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.039 you know, waiting to file in and get a look 338 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.599 at these horrible remains. It looks like they're online for 339 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:46.160 a Disneyland ride or something. 340 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:46.480 Wow. 341 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.400 I mean, there are a lot, a lot of examples 342 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.720 of that. You know, people are just drawn by this 343 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.680 very morbid curiosity to these scenes, and they often want 344 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:56.720 to see you know, back I'm sure you know, back 345 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.559 in the Old West, when they would kill an outlaw, 346 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.920 this was in the clint would move the unforgiven, you know, 347 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.960 they would put the outlaws corpse on display, you know, 348 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.519 for people to look at. 349 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:07.799 And so. 350 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:14.119 That was the kind of carnivalesque atmosphere where you had 351 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:18.000 all these people flocking to the crime scene and also 352 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.400 to come away with these ghoulish souvenirs. You know, people 353 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.799 would come away with like bloodcake, pieces of the hay. 354 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:30.079 There have been crimes, you know, where these morbid sightseers 355 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.400 taken a part of house where a crime occurred. 356 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.960 You know. So the souvenir, yes, you read about him 357 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.119 finally being arrested with some keen police work in terms 358 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.720 of spotting a suspicious character outside while they were talking, 359 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.400 and so they finally have them. And of course he 360 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.359 says that he killed the farm hand, but he didn't 361 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.440 kill the rest them, and they said who did, and 362 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.400 he came up with a name, Jacob Younger. So he 363 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.960 gave a description of this Jacob Younger. And this mob, 364 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.880 this very adamant mob, actually might have tried to grab 365 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.720 the wrong person in their pursuit for this suspect. But 366 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.160 within a few days the police believed that there really 367 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.839 isn't any accomplice. They realize this guy's a congenital liars, 368 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.319 you right, and they are just set to indict him 369 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.440 and take him to trial. And what you write is 370 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.240 that once he realizes the mobs that are there for him, 371 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:27.160 again very much like a psychopathic mindset, he is enjoying 372 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:28.960 himself and joined the limelight. 373 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:29.279 Yeah. 374 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.319 Well, yeah, he had his photograph taken and you know, 375 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.640 which was then made up into these cabinet cards and 376 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:39.480 sold as souvenirs. But yeah, I mean again, Probes is 377 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:44.480 not unique in claiming that there was another accomplice involved 378 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.400 who really did the dirty work. But one of the 379 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:54.920 reasons authorities doubted him was they just partly couldn't believe, 380 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.799 you know, that there would be two human beings who 381 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.799 could commit such an incredible atrocity. Right, So he was, 382 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.319 you know, tried, very sensational trial. There are all these 383 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:09.519 you know, we tend to think of true crime as 384 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:14.000 a kind of recent phenomenon, but crime publications really go 385 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.759 back almost to the invention of the printing press, and 386 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:19.680 back in Probe's time. You know, they would churn out 387 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:24.240 these hack writers, you know, would churn out these crime pamphlets, 388 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.920 many of them actually, I mean I own one on Probes, 389 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.480 which is very useful to me in my writing. You know, 390 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:35.079 sometimes there are complete transcripts of the trials. So Probes 391 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.960 has tried, convicted, and finally when he was in prison 392 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:43.039 and awaiting execution, you know, he decided to confess. And 393 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:46.440 you know, his confession wasn't incredibly shocking. I mean, what 394 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:51.119 he said was that he decided to rob Deering, but 395 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:54.799 then you didn't want to leave any witnesses. Basically what 396 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.039 he did was when Deering was off, first he killed 397 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:01.400 Cornelius and shoved his corpse in a haystaff. Then he 398 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.759 went back to the house and he would call each 399 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.119 member of the family one by one into the barn 400 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.599 under some pretext, and as soon as they entered, he 401 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.079