WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.520 Yeah. So, see, phrases are something you know that we 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:05.599 gave to the world, but we are also trying to 3 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.439 look into how to innovate on that, and it's really 4 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:13.679 something we are We are discussing the problem with all 5 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:18.239 those you know, zero knowledge proofs or some kind of 6 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.559 AI whatever that all those things they usually do have 7 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:27.239 some drawbacks. 8 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.119 Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, 9 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:36.920 Tony Edward and joining me today is Thomas Susanka, who 10 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:40.719 is the CTO at Treasure. Thomas. Great to have you on. 11 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:42.679 Hello everyone, thank you for having me. 12 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:45.679 Thomas. I'm excited to speak with you. I'm a user 13 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.159 of the Treasure device Crypto. Self custody is something I 14 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.640 believe in and I've always recommended to folks, and I 15 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:57.159 think it's important for folks to understand all the moving 16 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.000 parts and components of self custody. And I want to 17 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.039 learned about all the great things that Treasures doing. But 18 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.120 let's kick it off with your background. Tell us about 19 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.159 where you're from and what's your professional background. 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:13.519 Sure, so, I'm from Prague, born and raised. I'm here 21 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:17.359 in the middle of Europe and basically I've always have 22 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:21.040 been fascinated you know, by technology or you know, playing 23 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:24.239 around with computers from from the young age as all 24 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:29.200 of us, I believe where and it really always you know, 25 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:33.319 brought me that way. And then I basically started also 26 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:38.439 investigating you know, security and things related to that. I 27 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:41.280 went to university in here, also did some you know 28 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:46.159 semesters in Germany and all over the place, and basically 29 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:50.079 at the university, I've found the field of cryptography and 30 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:53.400 you know computer security, which was a really fascinating field 31 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.200 to me and it is still today. And that's basically 32 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.480 how I, uh, you know, also found bitcoin, and I 33 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.239 was really fascinated you know by or just by the 34 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.000 fact that you were able to do that, you were 35 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.599 able to create money with with just some code and 36 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:16.039 some cryptography. That is still fascinating till today. Anyway, And 37 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:18.400 after the university, I knew that I want to do 38 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:20.479 something in this field. I knew I want to do 39 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:25.560 cryptography or something related to computer security. I've joined cloud 40 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.199 player for for some time, you know, the CDM, a 41 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:36.280 network provider back in whatever year it was twenty seventeen, 42 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:41.240 i'd say, or twenty sixteen, something like that, and after 43 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:43.800 that it was in London, and I knew I want 44 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.199 to come back, so I was looking for something around here. 45 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.280 And you know, basically Tresor was really the you know, 46 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.919 love on first sight because it was a smaller company 47 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:58.479 at that time. It was you know, doing computer security. 48 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.960 It was related to bitcoin, and basically eight years ago 49 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.439 I started my journey here. 50 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.319 Wow, that's a long time. So you're a crypto og, 51 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:11.080 I mean eight years in the crypto industry, it's a 52 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:11.639 long time. 53 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:17.159 Yeah, exactly. Like I feel, eight years in crypto is 54 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:22.240 like fifty years in the normal world, right exactly. 55 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.120 It's like interstellar, right, you're on certain planets and it's 56 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:28.879 it seems like it's a short time, but it's long 57 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:30.120 in the real world. 58 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.159 Yeah exactly. And it's also like back in the time. 59 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.080 So we were around twenty people when I joined. We're 60 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.840 now like around two hundred. So you know, the company 61 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:43.280 changed a lot, but obviously also the industry changed a lot, 62 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.159 like to you know that you know, to to have 63 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:51.800 something like it going to be a topic of US elections, 64 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:54.280 right or and all those things that happened, and then 65 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.280 now there are laws passing in both US and also 66 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.919 some in Europe. It really changed a lot, and it's 67 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:02.479 kind of surrealed sometimes to look at the field, you know, 68 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:05.319 eight years ago and now, because sometimes it's yeah, it's 69 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.280 very different in many aspects, but at the same time, 70 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.759 the mission I think stays the same. So yeah, it's 71 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:11.840 interesting to look back. 72 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.560 Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're correct. Word you use there 73 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:18.720 is surreal. I've been here since twenty sixteen and I 74 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:24.800 still am like, Wow, trad fi, banks, the politicians, everybody's 75 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.160 behind crypto now, it's just amazing how things have changed. 76 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:33.560 Yeah, it's kind of like it's also interesting with respect 77 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:35.439 to the price, right, I mean, I'm just looking at 78 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.120 you have it in the background. So one eighteen was 79 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.920 something we definitely you know, I mean it was something 80 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.399 we dreamed of, but it was not something we expected 81 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.519 or we hope for. But yeah, you know, you never know. 82 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.879 But it's it's not just that. Yeah, it's also all 83 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:55.079 the other things politics, laws, stable coins, like we'll probably 84 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:57.519 get to some of that later on, but it's interesting 85 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.800 how you know, it evolved. Yeah, So yeah, just confirming 86 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:03.480 the fact that eight years in crypto is one hundred 87 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.959 years in the normal world, is there. 88 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.120 So for those who don't know about treasure, give us 89 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:12.879 an overview of the company and all the services you provide. 90 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:18.000 So Treasure is the So we are the manufacturer of 91 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.519 a hardware wallet. So we've actually the we've kind of 92 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:24.199 started the industry of hardware worlds because we are the 93 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.480 first and the og of the you know, first ever 94 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:32.639 bitcoin or crypto hardware. Whatd we launched modul one. It's 95 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:36.240 more than ten years ago, it's eleven or twelve, I'm 96 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:38.839 losing track, but it's also you know, some time ago. 97 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.480 And basically Treasure is a device that stores your cryptocurrencies 98 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.399 and the main difference is the self custody part, which 99 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:52.319 means that in traditional volots or exchanges, the company is 100 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.839 holding the private keys themselves, right, I mean they are 101 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:00.399 holding the crypto for you while we are selling, selling, 102 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.879 and manufacturing the device that you know, then you then 103 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.959 use and you have the keys on the device itself. Right. 104 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.680 So it's like that's the biggest fundamental shift that you 105 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.399 actually own the keys. You are the you know, you 106 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.600 are the owner of the keys that then you know, 107 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:20.519 control the coins, which doesn't apply for exchanges or whatever. Right, 108 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.480 So this gives better security, but it's also you know, 109 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:30.120 you are not you You're not required how to say, 110 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:35.759 you're not under any limit restrictions or obligations or anything, 111 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:37.519 right like, you own the keys and what you do 112 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.680 with it is are totally up to you. So that's 113 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.120 that's ask this Treasure, that's the device and from you know, 114 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:47.680 over the years, we've basically built a lot of services 115 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.040 on top of that. So we have Treasure Suite, which 116 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.680 is our main software product that you have on your computer, 117 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.480 and of course you can buy cells, WEP, you can 118 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:59.920 you know, do all those things that are quite common, 119 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.439 or even a stake with some of the coins, and 120 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:06.879 we're trying to extend these services as well. But at 121 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:09.879 the same time, the core product is the hardware world itself. 122 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.040 Oh absolutely, and it's a beautiful device. I use the 123 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.120 Treasure say five. I love the setup that you guys 124 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:18.959 have the Treasure Suite, and I love the handholding service 125 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.560 that you provide as well, because I think a lot 126 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.240 of people this is very new to them and having 127 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.319 someone representative from the company speak to them and be 128 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.680 able to hold their hand through the process is really great. 129 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.560 Yeah, that's a great point. We also we call it 130 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.360 Treasure Expert, which is basically a service you know that 131 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:39.439 allows you to basically on boarding service that that you know, 132 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:42.680 someone calls a has a call with you and you 133 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:49.279 know explain to you all those difficult terms and you know, 134 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:52.519 tried to onboard you into Treasure. By the way, we 135 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.759 just recently launched also like a consultation service, so you 136 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.480 can also of course we you know, provide support and 137 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.800 customer service and all that, but now we've also extended 138 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:08.600 expert into like a consultation session. So for example, if 139 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.879 you are already experienced user, but you have something more 140 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.399 complex that you need to discuss, or you know you're 141 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.759 dealing with some problem, you can also use that. So 142 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:20.439 we're trying to be there for our customers as much 143 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:21.079 as possible. 144 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:25.240 Yeah, that's really great. So obviously you have a retail product, 145 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:27.040 are you also working with institutions? 146 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:33.000 Actually no, So from the start we have been like 147 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.639 a B two C product, so we've been always focused 148 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.080 on the on the retail and basically our mission is 149 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.000 really to you know, empower the independence of the individuals. 150 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:45.440 So you know, it's been on the table many times, 151 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.120 like to go and you know have some B to 152 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.720 B offering or some you know institution offering, but it's 153 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:57.240 not of our mission basically, I mean never say never, right, 154 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:00.440 So maybe at some point eventually, but I don't see 155 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.279 it because we've always been focused on the individuals and 156 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:04.840 I think it's going to stay that way. 157 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.279 Oh yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And I think look 158 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.200 on the institutional side, there are a lot of options, 159 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.399 but I think the retail they really need the handholding 160 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:18.679 because if we're going to bring a billion people on chain, right, 161 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.799 a lot of services need to be of quality standard, right, 162 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.399 the customer service, the handholding, because this is still very 163 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:29.360 new to a lot of folks. 164 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:31.879 Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I agree. 165 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.399 Now in regards to competitors, you know, there's going to 166 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.320 be folks gonna ask, Okay, why is Treasure, let's say, 167 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.120 better than Ledger or the other hardware companies out there. 168 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:44.559 What do you think differentiates Treasure from others? 169 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:50.480 Yeah, so it's a very complex question obviously, but we've 170 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.480 always tried to be to the principles that we started with, 171 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:59.000 which goes to be really stubbornly open source. So everything 172 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.519 we do we really do an open source way, which 173 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:05.960 also means that we are not using any we do 174 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.720 not run any closed source on the secure element for example, 175 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.600 and things like that. Which which for example, Ledger is doing, 176 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.919 and we are trying to also push the usability as 177 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.840 much as we can, so we're really trying to be 178 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.799 user friendly. I would say that's probably the biggest uh 179 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.759 you know, changes that that differentiate us to larger because 180 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:31.759 for example, Ledger has a smaller way smaller, smaller screens 181 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.720 on the old devices. On the new one they have 182 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.840 the e ink, which well, you know, everybody has a 183 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:38.759 different taste, so I don't really want to judge it, 184 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.039 but we are trying to push the usability there as well, right, 185 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:44.840 So I would say it's piece to probably. 186 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.600 Yeah, one thing I can say, uh, you know, from 187 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.320 my experience, like you mentioned, the Ledger screen is very small, 188 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:53.840 but the Treasure say five, have a larger screen. It's 189 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:57.519 much more easier to handle, you know. So the usability, 190 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.240 I think it's really great. So just just my opinion onion. 191 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.120 Some polks may disagree, but I agree with that. Now, 192 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:06.480 we know there's a lot of bad actors out there. 193 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:09.320 They're in every market, right, They're always trying to steal 194 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.600 people's cash, their funds, their crypto. So a question a 195 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:15.440 lot of folks are going to have is how how 196 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.159 is treasure staying ahead of the curve to you know, 197 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.639 mitigate against these hackers who are trying different things, maybe 198 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.240 using AI and much more m. 199 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.759 Yeah, I mean, so honestly, this is like a never 200 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:32.120 ending journey, right. I mean, if someone tells you that 201 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.080 there's one thing that's going to solve everything, that they're 202 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.799 probably lying, right. So it's a never ending journey that 203 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:41.960 we are on and that we are fighting for. So 204 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.799 we've always trying to adapt to the threads that we're 205 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.399 out there. So we've introduced the Secure Element and the 206 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.799 Safe series. So Save three, say five, you know, they 207 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.399 have a dedicated secure element that is protecting the core 208 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.000 of the recovery seat, you know, the core of the 209 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:03.320 backup that the treasure gives you. We're also working on 210 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.519 a on a like an auditable and transparent secure element ourselves, 211 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.120 or it's our sister company, Tropic Square that you know, 212 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.600 is working for a few years already on something that 213 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.919 would be more transparent, because we are not we're not 214 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.600 happy enough with the current state of things, and we 215 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:24.720 wanted to push the boundaries even further. Like, to be honest, 216 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.399 hardware is hard, and you know, chip manufacturing or chip 217 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.799 design is even harder. It's it's really very difficult. So 218 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.080 it's been some journey that we've been on for quite 219 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:40.000 some time. And but yeah, I hope soon, soon, soon, 220 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.080 it will happen. So we're also trying to push the 221 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.039 transparency aspect a little bit more, and we're also using 222 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.080 different chip in the in the SA five which you 223 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.720 know has some security guarantees, and there's many more you know, 224 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.559 protections that we can get into. Also. What is what 225 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:02.240 kind of breaks my heart art sometimes is that we're 226 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.279 doing all those you know, sophisticated protections and all that, 227 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.080 but then at the end of the at the end 228 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.879 of the day, I think the biggest threat, unfortunately is 229 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.159 the fishing. That that's something that we see very often 230 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.759 that you know, unfortunately, the users not just of treasures, 231 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.799 like users in general. They you know, have the recovery seat, 232 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:26.159 they have the set of words that you know, serve 233 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.240 as the backup, and they unfortunately enter it into websites, 234 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.440 into a phishing website that they obviously shouldn't have, and 235 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.639 then you know, their crypto is gone. So sometimes I 236 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.720 feel we are focused quite heavily, you know, on the 237 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.000 physical protections and all on all that, but yeah, we're 238 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.919 also you know, trying we also need to look into 239 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.240 into how to put it into the user side of 240 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:56.360 things as well, right to really see how we can 241 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.559 help the users not to fall for these because it's 242 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:02.120 going to be here forever, right, So we're trying to 243 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.879 do like the hardcore stuff, but at the same time 244 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.360 also looking at you know, the soft stuff. 245 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.240 So yeah, yeah, and I saw you guys put out 246 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.320 some warnings and things like that on social media that 247 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.799 there are you know, people trying to impersonate treasure with 248 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.600 phishing emails. And that's not an issue exclusive to crypto. 249 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.240 That happens in the regular business world. I remember when 250 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:25.720 I was working at a company, I had to go 251 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:30.000 through these compliance trainings and phishing was one of them, right, 252 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.279 and it had nothing to do with crypto finances. It's 253 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.960 a common problem that exists, and I think it's just 254 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:39.159 more education, you know, what to look out for when 255 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.080 it comes to emails and things like that. 256 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.639 Yeah, exactly, And that's also one of the reasons why 257 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.960 we started the Trust Are Expert you know, to really 258 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.360 educate the people as much as we can. We're also 259 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.399 like introducing new knowledge base, you know, on our websites. 260 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.600 We're trying to you know, to push the content as well. 261 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:59.840 I'm also talking about the phishing. I feel like it's 262 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.519 the only thing I'm doing is just like trying to 263 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:05.919 educate about fishing, because I really do see it as 264 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.840 a thread. I think sometimes people have, you know, like 265 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.840 the feelings to say, well, you know, the users just 266 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.159 just shouldn't have done it right, like are they stupid 267 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.279 or what? But I always feel this, like, you know, 268 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.759 no one is like, no one was born with any 269 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.840 knowledge right away. Right, It's something you gain along the way, 270 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.080 and it's our mission to do it as simple as possible. 271 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:32.799 So yeah, it's something Yeah, we're trying to look into 272 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:33.279 as well. 273 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:38.240 Oh absolutely. I think as an industry, hopefully we all 274 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.200 can collectively come together and continue to educate and put 275 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.399 it in front of people's faces. I think that's that's 276 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.399 the key, Like remember, watch out for emails, don't click 277 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:52.200 on certain links, you know, verify, don't just trust all 278 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:55.399 these things. And I think if we collectively do it, 279 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:58.960 maybe there's some sort of group that's formed with all 280 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.240 these crypto companies, they have representatives that are just out 281 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.639 there educating people on social media much more. 282 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.200 Yeah, Yeah, exactly. I totally agree that, you know, it's something, 283 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.200 it's a journey, and it's we really need to educate 284 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.360 the people as much as possible to so they understand 285 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:20.200 because like, these concepts are different, right, It's different than 286 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.440 opening a bank account or whatever. Right, so we need 287 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.480 to make it really simple. 288 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.399 Absolutely. Now on the hardware side, you know, you have 289 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.480 the merchandise, the hardware walls that are shipped globally. How 290 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.799 do you protect your inventory to let's say someone getting 291 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.000 some of that inventory along the supply chain, right doing 292 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.000 stuff to those hardware walls and packaging back and sending 293 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.679 it to stores. How do you protect against that? 294 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.159 Yeah, So the biggest protection is basically the authenticity check, 295 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.679 which is a feature that we have in the Safe series. 296 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.039 And basically the second element that is there is loaded 297 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:05.559 with with a certificate that comes from our manufacturing side, 298 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.319 from you know, our place where we manufacture these, and 299 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:12.039 we basically loaded there and we verify that it's authentic 300 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.759 and we basically prove the authenticity. So then when you 301 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.359 receive it, even if someone would somehow meddle around with it, 302 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.480 they we would basically know. So when you launch Treasure Suite, 303 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.240 you like a special that there is a special section 304 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.000 during onboarding which will say, hey, now verifying your treasure, 305 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.680 and it gets verified and then you can see, you 306 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.000 know that it's been intact. So this is in place, 307 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.359 and yeah, it works well. And it's something that we 308 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.319 that we're trying to look for as well, because obviously, yeah, 309 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.359 it's one of the one of those threats. 310 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.839 Yeah, and it's like an ongoing thing for not only 311 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:52.759 the crypto industry, but other industries as well, So it 312 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:56.640 definitely makes sense. You know, I'm curious about what your 313 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:01.000 vision is for self custody moving forward, what hardware welds, 314 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:04.720 how they may evolve, Like, for example, would we eventually 315 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.720 not necessarily have the seed phrase. But it's more biometrics 316 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:14.119 my fingerprint, my redness skin and maybe certain questions that 317 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.079 I can answer that I only I know the answer to, 318 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:18.640 you know, things like that. 319 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:25.599 Yeah, so let me maybe answer into in two ways. 320 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:28.559 So first of all, yes, we are also trying to 321 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.039 look into the biometrics and all that. I think it's 322 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:35.079 something that's on the table. There's also you know, there 323 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.759 are some problems with that with respect to the open 324 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.079 source nest because you know, for example, the fingerprint readers 325 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.039 and all that. It's usually you know, for party properties, 326 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.279 it's kind of it's something you know to have a 327 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:52.200 look into there. And also while fingerprints or the face 328 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.759 idea or whatever it's great, there's also this problem that 329 00:18:55.880 --> 00:19:01.160 you there is not this plausible deniability because for example, 330 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.359 if you have PIN, you can you can kind of 331 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.039 present or you can claim that you forgot it, right 332 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:09.559 because you like, no one can really well, they can 333 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.319 beat you and get it probably, but if you know 334 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:14.720 what I mean, right, it's not something like to change 335 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:19.759 fingerprint is basically not possible unless you know you're really crazy. 336 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:20.359 Yeah, so. 337 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.640 It's something that you know, we're also trying to look 338 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.160 at these suspects because pin is really something that you 339 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.480 remember and you can change and you can you know, 340 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.720 forget and no one can really you know, you have 341 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.240 to give it up, right, But the face ID and 342 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.000 the fingerprints is something you know that you cannot really change. 343 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.640 So you know, there are many many aspects to that. 344 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.279 But I also wanted to say about the future of 345 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.680 self custody. It's also when I kind of zoom out, 346 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:54.480 it's also interesting how the market is evolving and like 347 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:58.759 eight years ago or whenever I really believe that, you know, 348 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:03.160 self custody is like or my goal or my dream 349 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.400 was that self custody will be for everyone. Like now 350 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:10.079 with all the ETFs, you know, and all the all 351 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:14.200 this insitualization, I kind of I don't. I don't really 352 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.559 believe it anymore. And I think that's fine. I don't 353 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.960 really I don't think self custody needs to be for everyone. 354 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.640 It's okay if it's you know, for ten percent or 355 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.480 fifty percent or whatever the persent it is. What I'm 356 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:32.119 kind of really would like to accomplish is that the 357 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.400 people know about the risks, right because if they buy ETF, 358 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.680 they usually you know, it's bitcoin, and they don't really 359 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.519 know that they don't own it, and they don't if 360 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:45.960 they not just that they don't own it per se, 361 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.440 they also don't own bitcoin. They own the ETF right 362 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:51.319 that you know, tells them that they own the coin. 363 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.319 So this is something that I would like to you know, 364 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.200 push further. That if there is someone who makes an 365 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.480 educated decision that they don't want to have self custody 366 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.759 and that they want to have you know, ETFs in 367 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.000 their bank, I'm kind of fine with that. I just 368 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.440 really want them to understand you know, what are you know, 369 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:16.039 the risks of it. So I still think to some extent, 370 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.960 self custody is not going to be super mainstream, but 371 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:21.480 it's still our mission to be at least a little 372 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.319 bit mainstream, you know, to be really like an option 373 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:27.559 in the mainstream that you can do if you decide 374 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:28.000 to do so. 375 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.359 Yeah, it's a great point because I think about, for example, 376 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.200 my parents who are much older. You know, I don't 377 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:35.920 think they're going to be able to self custody, but 378 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:38.519 they are comfortable in their bank or with an ETF 379 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.039 in their retirement account. But you know, the more sophisticated 380 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.880 users and maybe the younger folks. Right, I'm not at agist. 381 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.079 There are people who are older who understand technology. But 382 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:49.799 let's say the younger folks who are more used to 383 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.480 the digital world, they may want to self custody and 384 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.039 they can participate in DeFi and control their funds and 385 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.680 move it whenever they want and you know, have that freedom, right. 386 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.640 Yeah, exactly, And I mean I totally agree with that, 387 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:06.720 Like many of my friends are you know, actually saying hey, 388 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:08.960 you can hold it for your parents, and you can 389 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.480 you know, educate everyone and of course that's true, and 390 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.440 that's what we're trying to do as well. But at 391 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:17.759 the same time, I'm always like trying to comparing to 392 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:22.480 like if you want to buy etf with with like 393 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:25.599 gold etf or I don't know whether it is silver 394 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.599 or oil or whatever. I mean, I don't really want 395 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.039 to have gold bricks in my garage, right, I mean, 396 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:35.960 it's something that I'm it's not my main mission or whatever, right, 397 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.680 So to me, it's fine if if you know, if 398 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.720 the people know, you know, the risks, but like when 399 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:46.039 when they actually have enough of a portion of their 400 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.119 wealth in bitcoin, then I really think they should consider 401 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.640