Speaker 1: Yeah. So, see, phrases are something you know that we
Speaker 1: gave to the world, but we are also trying to
Speaker 1: look into how to innovate on that, and it's really
Speaker 1: something we are We are discussing the problem with all
Speaker 1: those you know, zero knowledge proofs or some kind of
Speaker 1: AI whatever that all those things they usually do have
Speaker 1: some drawbacks.
Speaker 2: Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Tony Edward and joining me today is Thomas Susanka, who
Speaker 2: is the CTO at Treasure. Thomas. Great to have you on.
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Thomas. I'm excited to speak with you. I'm a user
Speaker 2: of the Treasure device Crypto. Self custody is something I
Speaker 2: believe in and I've always recommended to folks, and I
Speaker 2: think it's important for folks to understand all the moving
Speaker 2: parts and components of self custody. And I want to
Speaker 2: learned about all the great things that Treasures doing. But
Speaker 2: let's kick it off with your background. Tell us about
Speaker 2: where you're from and what's your professional background.
Speaker 1: Sure, so, I'm from Prague, born and raised. I'm here
Speaker 1: in the middle of Europe and basically I've always have
Speaker 1: been fascinated you know, by technology or you know, playing
Speaker 1: around with computers from from the young age as all
Speaker 1: of us, I believe where and it really always you know,
Speaker 1: brought me that way. And then I basically started also
Speaker 1: investigating you know, security and things related to that. I
Speaker 1: went to university in here, also did some you know
Speaker 1: semesters in Germany and all over the place, and basically
Speaker 1: at the university, I've found the field of cryptography and
Speaker 1: you know computer security, which was a really fascinating field
Speaker 1: to me and it is still today. And that's basically
Speaker 1: how I, uh, you know, also found bitcoin, and I
Speaker 1: was really fascinated you know by or just by the
Speaker 1: fact that you were able to do that, you were
Speaker 1: able to create money with with just some code and
Speaker 1: some cryptography. That is still fascinating till today. Anyway, And
Speaker 1: after the university, I knew that I want to do
Speaker 1: something in this field. I knew I want to do
Speaker 1: cryptography or something related to computer security. I've joined cloud
Speaker 1: player for for some time, you know, the CDM, a
Speaker 1: network provider back in whatever year it was twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: i'd say, or twenty sixteen, something like that, and after
Speaker 1: that it was in London, and I knew I want
Speaker 1: to come back, so I was looking for something around here.
Speaker 1: And you know, basically Tresor was really the you know,
Speaker 1: love on first sight because it was a smaller company
Speaker 1: at that time. It was you know, doing computer security.
Speaker 1: It was related to bitcoin, and basically eight years ago
Speaker 1: I started my journey here.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a long time. So you're a crypto og,
Speaker 2: I mean eight years in the crypto industry, it's a
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Like I feel, eight years in crypto is
Speaker 1: like fifty years in the normal world, right exactly.
Speaker 2: It's like interstellar, right, you're on certain planets and it's
Speaker 2: it seems like it's a short time, but it's long
Speaker 2: in the real world.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And it's also like back in the time.
Speaker 1: So we were around twenty people when I joined. We're
Speaker 1: now like around two hundred. So you know, the company
Speaker 1: changed a lot, but obviously also the industry changed a lot,
Speaker 1: like to you know that you know, to to have
Speaker 1: something like it going to be a topic of US elections,
Speaker 1: right or and all those things that happened, and then
Speaker 1: now there are laws passing in both US and also
Speaker 1: some in Europe. It really changed a lot, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of surrealed sometimes to look at the field, you know,
Speaker 1: eight years ago and now, because sometimes it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: very different in many aspects, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: the mission I think stays the same. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: interesting to look back.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're correct. Word you use there
Speaker 2: is surreal. I've been here since twenty sixteen and I
Speaker 2: still am like, Wow, trad fi, banks, the politicians, everybody's
Speaker 2: behind crypto now, it's just amazing how things have changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like it's also interesting with respect
Speaker 1: to the price, right, I mean, I'm just looking at
Speaker 1: you have it in the background. So one eighteen was
Speaker 1: something we definitely you know, I mean it was something
Speaker 1: we dreamed of, but it was not something we expected
Speaker 1: or we hope for. But yeah, you know, you never know.
Speaker 1: But it's it's not just that. Yeah, it's also all
Speaker 1: the other things politics, laws, stable coins, like we'll probably
Speaker 1: get to some of that later on, but it's interesting
Speaker 1: how you know, it evolved. Yeah, So yeah, just confirming
Speaker 1: the fact that eight years in crypto is one hundred
Speaker 1: years in the normal world, is there.
Speaker 2: So for those who don't know about treasure, give us
Speaker 2: an overview of the company and all the services you provide.
Speaker 1: So Treasure is the So we are the manufacturer of
Speaker 1: a hardware wallet. So we've actually the we've kind of
Speaker 1: started the industry of hardware worlds because we are the
Speaker 1: first and the og of the you know, first ever
Speaker 1: bitcoin or crypto hardware. Whatd we launched modul one. It's
Speaker 1: more than ten years ago, it's eleven or twelve, I'm
Speaker 1: losing track, but it's also you know, some time ago.
Speaker 1: And basically Treasure is a device that stores your cryptocurrencies
Speaker 1: and the main difference is the self custody part, which
Speaker 1: means that in traditional volots or exchanges, the company is
Speaker 1: holding the private keys themselves, right, I mean they are
Speaker 1: holding the crypto for you while we are selling, selling,
Speaker 1: and manufacturing the device that you know, then you then
Speaker 1: use and you have the keys on the device itself. Right.
Speaker 1: So it's like that's the biggest fundamental shift that you
Speaker 1: actually own the keys. You are the you know, you
Speaker 1: are the owner of the keys that then you know,
Speaker 1: control the coins, which doesn't apply for exchanges or whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: So this gives better security, but it's also you know,
Speaker 1: you are not you You're not required how to say,
Speaker 1: you're not under any limit restrictions or obligations or anything,
Speaker 1: right like, you own the keys and what you do
Speaker 1: with it is are totally up to you. So that's
Speaker 1: that's ask this Treasure, that's the device and from you know,
Speaker 1: over the years, we've basically built a lot of services
Speaker 1: on top of that. So we have Treasure Suite, which
Speaker 1: is our main software product that you have on your computer,
Speaker 1: and of course you can buy cells, WEP, you can
Speaker 1: you know, do all those things that are quite common,
Speaker 1: or even a stake with some of the coins, and
Speaker 1: we're trying to extend these services as well. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, the core product is the hardware world itself.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, and it's a beautiful device. I use the
Speaker 2: Treasure say five. I love the setup that you guys
Speaker 2: have the Treasure Suite, and I love the handholding service
Speaker 2: that you provide as well, because I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people this is very new to them and having
Speaker 2: someone representative from the company speak to them and be
Speaker 2: able to hold their hand through the process is really great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. We also we call it
Speaker 1: Treasure Expert, which is basically a service you know that
Speaker 1: allows you to basically on boarding service that that you know,
Speaker 1: someone calls a has a call with you and you
Speaker 1: know explain to you all those difficult terms and you know,
Speaker 1: tried to onboard you into Treasure. By the way, we
Speaker 1: just recently launched also like a consultation service, so you
Speaker 1: can also of course we you know, provide support and
Speaker 1: customer service and all that, but now we've also extended
Speaker 1: expert into like a consultation session. So for example, if
Speaker 1: you are already experienced user, but you have something more
Speaker 1: complex that you need to discuss, or you know you're
Speaker 1: dealing with some problem, you can also use that. So
Speaker 1: we're trying to be there for our customers as much
Speaker 1: as possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really great. So obviously you have a retail product,
Speaker 2: are you also working with institutions?
Speaker 1: Actually no, So from the start we have been like
Speaker 1: a B two C product, so we've been always focused
Speaker 1: on the on the retail and basically our mission is
Speaker 1: really to you know, empower the independence of the individuals.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's been on the table many times,
Speaker 1: like to go and you know have some B to
Speaker 1: B offering or some you know institution offering, but it's
Speaker 1: not of our mission basically, I mean never say never, right,
Speaker 1: So maybe at some point eventually, but I don't see
Speaker 1: it because we've always been focused on the individuals and
Speaker 1: I think it's going to stay that way.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And I think look
Speaker 2: on the institutional side, there are a lot of options,
Speaker 2: but I think the retail they really need the handholding
Speaker 2: because if we're going to bring a billion people on chain, right,
Speaker 2: a lot of services need to be of quality standard, right,
Speaker 2: the customer service, the handholding, because this is still very
Speaker 2: new to a lot of folks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: Now in regards to competitors, you know, there's going to
Speaker 2: be folks gonna ask, Okay, why is Treasure, let's say,
Speaker 2: better than Ledger or the other hardware companies out there.
Speaker 2: What do you think differentiates Treasure from others?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a very complex question obviously, but we've
Speaker 1: always tried to be to the principles that we started with,
Speaker 1: which goes to be really stubbornly open source. So everything
Speaker 1: we do we really do an open source way, which
Speaker 1: also means that we are not using any we do
Speaker 1: not run any closed source on the secure element for example,
Speaker 1: and things like that. Which which for example, Ledger is doing,
Speaker 1: and we are trying to also push the usability as
Speaker 1: much as we can, so we're really trying to be
Speaker 1: user friendly. I would say that's probably the biggest uh
Speaker 1: you know, changes that that differentiate us to larger because
Speaker 1: for example, Ledger has a smaller way smaller, smaller screens
Speaker 1: on the old devices. On the new one they have
Speaker 1: the e ink, which well, you know, everybody has a
Speaker 1: different taste, so I don't really want to judge it,
Speaker 1: but we are trying to push the usability there as well, right,
Speaker 1: So I would say it's piece to probably.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I can say, uh, you know, from
Speaker 2: my experience, like you mentioned, the Ledger screen is very small,
Speaker 2: but the Treasure say five, have a larger screen. It's
Speaker 2: much more easier to handle, you know. So the usability,
Speaker 2: I think it's really great. So just just my opinion onion.
Speaker 2: Some polks may disagree, but I agree with that. Now,
Speaker 2: we know there's a lot of bad actors out there.
Speaker 2: They're in every market, right, They're always trying to steal
Speaker 2: people's cash, their funds, their crypto. So a question a
Speaker 2: lot of folks are going to have is how how
Speaker 2: is treasure staying ahead of the curve to you know,
Speaker 2: mitigate against these hackers who are trying different things, maybe
Speaker 2: using AI and much more m.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so honestly, this is like a never
Speaker 1: ending journey, right. I mean, if someone tells you that
Speaker 1: there's one thing that's going to solve everything, that they're
Speaker 1: probably lying, right. So it's a never ending journey that
Speaker 1: we are on and that we are fighting for. So
Speaker 1: we've always trying to adapt to the threads that we're
Speaker 1: out there. So we've introduced the Secure Element and the
Speaker 1: Safe series. So Save three, say five, you know, they
Speaker 1: have a dedicated secure element that is protecting the core
Speaker 1: of the recovery seat, you know, the core of the
Speaker 1: backup that the treasure gives you. We're also working on
Speaker 1: a on a like an auditable and transparent secure element ourselves,
Speaker 1: or it's our sister company, Tropic Square that you know,
Speaker 1: is working for a few years already on something that
Speaker 1: would be more transparent, because we are not we're not
Speaker 1: happy enough with the current state of things, and we
Speaker 1: wanted to push the boundaries even further. Like, to be honest,
Speaker 1: hardware is hard, and you know, chip manufacturing or chip
Speaker 1: design is even harder. It's it's really very difficult. So
Speaker 1: it's been some journey that we've been on for quite
Speaker 1: some time. And but yeah, I hope soon, soon, soon,
Speaker 1: it will happen. So we're also trying to push the
Speaker 1: transparency aspect a little bit more, and we're also using
Speaker 1: different chip in the in the SA five which you
Speaker 1: know has some security guarantees, and there's many more you know,
Speaker 1: protections that we can get into. Also. What is what
Speaker 1: kind of breaks my heart art sometimes is that we're
Speaker 1: doing all those you know, sophisticated protections and all that,
Speaker 1: but then at the end of the at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I think the biggest threat, unfortunately is
Speaker 1: the fishing. That that's something that we see very often
Speaker 1: that you know, unfortunately, the users not just of treasures,
Speaker 1: like users in general. They you know, have the recovery seat,
Speaker 1: they have the set of words that you know, serve
Speaker 1: as the backup, and they unfortunately enter it into websites,
Speaker 1: into a phishing website that they obviously shouldn't have, and
Speaker 1: then you know, their crypto is gone. So sometimes I
Speaker 1: feel we are focused quite heavily, you know, on the
Speaker 1: physical protections and all on all that, but yeah, we're
Speaker 1: also you know, trying we also need to look into
Speaker 1: into how to put it into the user side of
Speaker 1: things as well, right to really see how we can
Speaker 1: help the users not to fall for these because it's
Speaker 1: going to be here forever, right, So we're trying to
Speaker 1: do like the hardcore stuff, but at the same time
Speaker 1: also looking at you know, the soft stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and I saw you guys put out
Speaker 2: some warnings and things like that on social media that
Speaker 2: there are you know, people trying to impersonate treasure with
Speaker 2: phishing emails. And that's not an issue exclusive to crypto.
Speaker 2: That happens in the regular business world. I remember when
Speaker 2: I was working at a company, I had to go
Speaker 2: through these compliance trainings and phishing was one of them, right,
Speaker 2: and it had nothing to do with crypto finances. It's
Speaker 2: a common problem that exists, and I think it's just
Speaker 2: more education, you know, what to look out for when
Speaker 2: it comes to emails and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that's also one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: we started the Trust Are Expert you know, to really
Speaker 1: educate the people as much as we can. We're also
Speaker 1: like introducing new knowledge base, you know, on our websites.
Speaker 1: We're trying to you know, to push the content as well.
Speaker 1: I'm also talking about the phishing. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: the only thing I'm doing is just like trying to
Speaker 1: educate about fishing, because I really do see it as
Speaker 1: a thread. I think sometimes people have, you know, like
Speaker 1: the feelings to say, well, you know, the users just
Speaker 1: just shouldn't have done it right, like are they stupid
Speaker 1: or what? But I always feel this, like, you know,
Speaker 1: no one is like, no one was born with any
Speaker 1: knowledge right away. Right, It's something you gain along the way,
Speaker 1: and it's our mission to do it as simple as possible.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's something Yeah, we're trying to look into
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. I think as an industry, hopefully we all
Speaker 2: can collectively come together and continue to educate and put
Speaker 2: it in front of people's faces. I think that's that's
Speaker 2: the key, Like remember, watch out for emails, don't click
Speaker 2: on certain links, you know, verify, don't just trust all
Speaker 2: these things. And I think if we collectively do it,
Speaker 2: maybe there's some sort of group that's formed with all
Speaker 2: these crypto companies, they have representatives that are just out
Speaker 2: there educating people on social media much more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, exactly. I totally agree that, you know, it's something,
Speaker 1: it's a journey, and it's we really need to educate
Speaker 1: the people as much as possible to so they understand
Speaker 1: because like, these concepts are different, right, It's different than
Speaker 1: opening a bank account or whatever. Right, so we need
Speaker 1: to make it really simple.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now on the hardware side, you know, you have
Speaker 2: the merchandise, the hardware walls that are shipped globally. How
Speaker 2: do you protect your inventory to let's say someone getting
Speaker 2: some of that inventory along the supply chain, right doing
Speaker 2: stuff to those hardware walls and packaging back and sending
Speaker 2: it to stores. How do you protect against that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the biggest protection is basically the authenticity check,
Speaker 1: which is a feature that we have in the Safe series.
Speaker 1: And basically the second element that is there is loaded
Speaker 1: with with a certificate that comes from our manufacturing side,
Speaker 1: from you know, our place where we manufacture these, and
Speaker 1: we basically loaded there and we verify that it's authentic
Speaker 1: and we basically prove the authenticity. So then when you
Speaker 1: receive it, even if someone would somehow meddle around with it,
Speaker 1: they we would basically know. So when you launch Treasure Suite,
Speaker 1: you like a special that there is a special section
Speaker 1: during onboarding which will say, hey, now verifying your treasure,
Speaker 1: and it gets verified and then you can see, you
Speaker 1: know that it's been intact. So this is in place,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it works well. And it's something that we
Speaker 1: that we're trying to look for as well, because obviously, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's one of the one of those threats.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like an ongoing thing for not only
Speaker 2: the crypto industry, but other industries as well, So it
Speaker 2: definitely makes sense. You know, I'm curious about what your
Speaker 2: vision is for self custody moving forward, what hardware welds,
Speaker 2: how they may evolve, Like, for example, would we eventually
Speaker 2: not necessarily have the seed phrase. But it's more biometrics
Speaker 2: my fingerprint, my redness skin and maybe certain questions that
Speaker 2: I can answer that I only I know the answer to,
Speaker 2: you know, things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me maybe answer into in two ways.
Speaker 1: So first of all, yes, we are also trying to
Speaker 1: look into the biometrics and all that. I think it's
Speaker 1: something that's on the table. There's also you know, there
Speaker 1: are some problems with that with respect to the open
Speaker 1: source nest because you know, for example, the fingerprint readers
Speaker 1: and all that. It's usually you know, for party properties,
Speaker 1: it's kind of it's something you know to have a
Speaker 1: look into there. And also while fingerprints or the face
Speaker 1: idea or whatever it's great, there's also this problem that
Speaker 1: you there is not this plausible deniability because for example,
Speaker 1: if you have PIN, you can you can kind of
Speaker 1: present or you can claim that you forgot it, right
Speaker 1: because you like, no one can really well, they can
Speaker 1: beat you and get it probably, but if you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, right, it's not something like to change
Speaker 1: fingerprint is basically not possible unless you know you're really crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: It's something that you know, we're also trying to look
Speaker 1: at these suspects because pin is really something that you
Speaker 1: remember and you can change and you can you know,
Speaker 1: forget and no one can really you know, you have
Speaker 1: to give it up, right, But the face ID and
Speaker 1: the fingerprints is something you know that you cannot really change.
Speaker 1: So you know, there are many many aspects to that.
Speaker 1: But I also wanted to say about the future of
Speaker 1: self custody. It's also when I kind of zoom out,
Speaker 1: it's also interesting how the market is evolving and like
Speaker 1: eight years ago or whenever I really believe that, you know,
Speaker 1: self custody is like or my goal or my dream
Speaker 1: was that self custody will be for everyone. Like now
Speaker 1: with all the ETFs, you know, and all the all
Speaker 1: this insitualization, I kind of I don't. I don't really
Speaker 1: believe it anymore. And I think that's fine. I don't
Speaker 1: really I don't think self custody needs to be for everyone.
Speaker 1: It's okay if it's you know, for ten percent or
Speaker 1: fifty percent or whatever the persent it is. What I'm
Speaker 1: kind of really would like to accomplish is that the
Speaker 1: people know about the risks, right because if they buy ETF,
Speaker 1: they usually you know, it's bitcoin, and they don't really
Speaker 1: know that they don't own it, and they don't if
Speaker 1: they not just that they don't own it per se,
Speaker 1: they also don't own bitcoin. They own the ETF right
Speaker 1: that you know, tells them that they own the coin.
Speaker 1: So this is something that I would like to you know,
Speaker 1: push further. That if there is someone who makes an
Speaker 1: educated decision that they don't want to have self custody
Speaker 1: and that they want to have you know, ETFs in
Speaker 1: their bank, I'm kind of fine with that. I just
Speaker 1: really want them to understand you know, what are you know,
Speaker 1: the risks of it. So I still think to some extent,
Speaker 1: self custody is not going to be super mainstream, but
Speaker 1: it's still our mission to be at least a little
Speaker 1: bit mainstream, you know, to be really like an option
Speaker 1: in the mainstream that you can do if you decide
Speaker 1: to do so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great point because I think about, for example,
Speaker 2: my parents who are much older. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: think they're going to be able to self custody, but
Speaker 2: they are comfortable in their bank or with an ETF
Speaker 2: in their retirement account. But you know, the more sophisticated
Speaker 2: users and maybe the younger folks. Right, I'm not at agist.
Speaker 2: There are people who are older who understand technology. But
Speaker 2: let's say the younger folks who are more used to
Speaker 2: the digital world, they may want to self custody and
Speaker 2: they can participate in DeFi and control their funds and
Speaker 2: move it whenever they want and you know, have that freedom, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I mean I totally agree with that,
Speaker 1: Like many of my friends are you know, actually saying hey,
Speaker 1: you can hold it for your parents, and you can
Speaker 1: you know, educate everyone and of course that's true, and
Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to do as well. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I'm always like trying to comparing to
Speaker 1: like if you want to buy etf with with like
Speaker 1: gold etf or I don't know whether it is silver
Speaker 1: or oil or whatever. I mean, I don't really want
Speaker 1: to have gold bricks in my garage, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's something that I'm it's not my main mission or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: So to me, it's fine if if you know, if
Speaker 1: the people know, you know, the risks, but like when
Speaker 1: when they actually have enough of a portion of their
Speaker 1: wealth in bitcoin, then I really think they should consider
Speaker 1: self custody because you know, then it's not like one
Speaker 1: percent of whatever, but it's something more and they should
Speaker 1: really educate themselves. So yeah, I simply agree with you.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: You know with seed phrases, right, I know that that
Speaker 2: gives a lot of people some anxiety, and I often
Speaker 2: tell them, like, you know, back up your seed phrases,
Speaker 2: have multiple copies and places that are safe, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe in a safety deposit box or in a safe
Speaker 2: in your house or whatever it may be, where it
Speaker 2: can be protected. Do you think in the future we
Speaker 2: won't need to necessarily back up physical copies of the
Speaker 2: seed phrase recovery. But you know, maybe with z K
Speaker 2: zero knowledge or maybe with an AI agent attached to
Speaker 2: your wallet, those things are you won't have to think
Speaker 2: about it. It's it's covered in that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So seed phrases are something you know, that we gave
Speaker 1: to the world, but we're also trying to look into
Speaker 1: how to innovate on that. And it's really something we
Speaker 1: are we are discussing the problem with all those you know,
Speaker 1: zero knowledge proofs or some kind of AI whatever that
Speaker 1: all those things, they usually do have some drawbacks, right,
Speaker 1: So for example, Ledger, they introduce the Ledger recover, which
Speaker 1: is like a KYC product for that, which is something
Speaker 1: we don't want to do because we don't want to
Speaker 1: do KYC on that. And when I'm trying to say that,
Speaker 1: we always feel that if we you know, we cannot
Speaker 1: really solve one part and then you know, replace it
Speaker 1: with just another problem, right, which I think the KYC
Speaker 1: part is. So it's something that we are looking into,
Speaker 1: it's something that we would like to innovate. Like I
Speaker 1: do agree that it's something you know to tackle, but
Speaker 1: at the same time, I do feel we are not
Speaker 1: there yet, but I would like to introduce something in
Speaker 1: that regard pretty soon because I do acknowledge it's an Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and you know, all things considered, it is
Speaker 2: still I think the safest and passibly the best option
Speaker 2: right now. But I guess as the technology there's future
Speaker 2: iterations around it. The could be maybe a more simpler way,
Speaker 2: if you want to put it that way, And I
Speaker 2: don't know what that might be. But as you said, though,
Speaker 2: you don't want to compromise security or usability just to
Speaker 2: put you know, kind of a patch because I know
Speaker 2: a lot of people are not happy about ledgers in
Speaker 2: a recovery situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean like at the same time,
Speaker 1: I kind of like, I kind of understand why they
Speaker 1: did what they did, and I mean, I I'm kind
Speaker 1: of glad that they are trying to innovate the field themselves.
Speaker 1: It's just that we want to go a different way,
Speaker 1: right And what the way will be We're going to
Speaker 1: find out, I hope, I hope pretty soon. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it takes some time, you know, to to come up
Speaker 1: with some innovations. So yeah, on one side, I'm glad
Speaker 1: it's trying to push it further. We just want to
Speaker 1: push it a different direction, basically, m M.
Speaker 2: Something I wanted to get your take on, you know,
Speaker 2: with your expertise. And this is a problem that exists
Speaker 2: across all industries, and that is data breaches, right, people's name, email,
Speaker 2: telephone number, data, birth and so forth getting leaked. We've
Speaker 2: seen it from some of the largest companies. Do you
Speaker 2: think that at some point we're going to be able
Speaker 2: to put our data on the blockchain, whether you're a
Speaker 2: small company or a large company or enterprise, and that
Speaker 2: will help prevent those data breaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I honestly think it doesn't make much sense.
Speaker 1: I mean, to some degree, maybe I can imagine a
Speaker 1: world where you know, you have the data encrypted on
Speaker 1: the blockchain and with treasure, you know you can exactly
Speaker 1: decrypt it and then you can provide the information to
Speaker 1: more more subjects. But the problem here is then, of course,
Speaker 1: you know, the companies than or the institutions need to
Speaker 1: adopt it, right, And I think that's also the biggest
Speaker 1: heard a lot that there is that all those data leagues, right,
Speaker 1: they were from like big government agencies or whatever, or
Speaker 1: from big companies, right, and I don't really see them,
Speaker 1: you know, having the ambition to push this, So I'm
Speaker 1: kind of worried that's the that's the problem. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, the space on the blockchain
Speaker 1: is limited, so that's another thing that yeah, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really it was never meant to be that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of pessimistic on that.
Speaker 2: I'm afraid interesting, so it seems like a problem we're
Speaker 2: gonna have to continue to deal with until we figure
Speaker 2: out some yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And honestly, also, like we we also support like
Speaker 3: the past keys function or the fit or two things,
Speaker 3: so that those are standards that allow you to connect without.
Speaker 1: The password to a website. So for example, Facebook, Go Google,
Speaker 1: I think Apple as well, like some of the bigger players,
Speaker 1: they actually support it so you can connect like using
Speaker 1: treasure into into websites. But I think the problem here
Speaker 1: is that like the demand is just not big enough there,
Speaker 1: Like people are not really willing to pay for devices
Speaker 1: to just secure their passwords or whatever because it's it's
Speaker 1: not that important to them, right, And I think until
Speaker 1: this changes, until you know, the demand is really large enough,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid this is going to be a problem. Also,
Speaker 1: further on. So yeah, I kind of this is also
Speaker 1: what is bordering me sometimes I would like people to
Speaker 1: be aware more about that this is a thread. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we're Yeah, it will take some time on
Speaker 1: maybe some big you know issues or whatever until people
Speaker 1: realize this.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, for sure, what's one treasures roadmap? You know,
Speaker 2: what can we expect in the next six months or so.
Speaker 1: So definitely the biggest one is our new Treasure It's
Speaker 1: something we've been working for for a quite long time.
Speaker 1: We believe we're going to launch it this fall, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's something we're really excited about. It's, you know, something
Speaker 1: that's been in the making for a very long time.
Speaker 1: It's going to be I really believe it's going to
Speaker 1: be the best hardware world out there. Of Course I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit biased to say that, so we'll see
Speaker 1: once people hold it in their hands, but yeah, it's
Speaker 1: something we've been working for for quite some time and
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about that. So that's definitely the biggest one.
Speaker 1: And honestly, I think that after that, it should be
Speaker 1: the backup thing that we've discussed just recently. I think
Speaker 1: that should be the next one that we look into.
Speaker 1: But of course we never we don't want to stop
Speaker 1: to in avate on any side, right, so we will
Speaker 1: also you know, we'll be working most likely on another
Speaker 1: Treasure or also want to make our offerings in sweet
Speaker 1: like like bigger and you know, to to because as mentioned,
Speaker 1: we also have the trading section, so we're always trying
Speaker 1: to improve that and we're working on the usability a lot,
Speaker 1: So that's something we're trying to, yeah, accomplish all that
Speaker 1: and somehow put it together.
Speaker 2: There's a question that just came to mind because I
Speaker 2: noticed that Treasure less support for black Rocks Biddle Tokenized
Speaker 2: Money Market fund. So Treasure has the ability to support
Speaker 2: these tokenized assets in the various stable coins. Right as
Speaker 2: we see the tokenization market is going to expand significantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's like my view on this whole
Speaker 1: toganization is kind of lugh and hate or my feelings
Speaker 1: are kind of torn on that because I and also
Speaker 1: like we we always have been quite on the bitcoin
Speaker 1: max side of things. I think it's changed a little
Speaker 1: bit like later on because we many of us do
Speaker 1: acknowledge you know, value in other other fields as well,
Speaker 1: and the toganization is really interesting because like I know,
Speaker 1: robin Hood also just you know, recently launched their their
Speaker 1: toganization attempt, and like I'm always asking myself, Okay, what
Speaker 1: is the point of having a Tesla stalk on treasor
Speaker 1: as a self custody if I'm still dependent on you know,
Speaker 1: robin Hood or whatever claiming that you know, they hold
Speaker 1: they hold the stocks themselves, right, Like, still I still
Speaker 1: need to believe them that they actually are doing what
Speaker 1: they're saying they're doing, right, So it's not one hundred
Speaker 1: percent complete self custody. On the other hand, I do
Speaker 1: acknowledge that, like we live in the privileged world where
Speaker 1: we you know, I can just take my phone and
Speaker 1: I can buy teslastalks in a in a few in
Speaker 1: a few seconds. Right, it can be Robinhood, but it
Speaker 1: can be many other apps that are out there. And
Speaker 1: obviously this is not the privilege that have people in
Speaker 1: you know, for countries or Africa or I don't know where, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not that easy to them, And I think that
Speaker 1: can be interesting for them because for them it can
Speaker 1: be very interesting option to get to those stocks and
Speaker 1: you know, to get to be part of the of
Speaker 1: this Wall Street or how to put it, because those
Speaker 1: were always in the history, and I really do see
Speaker 1: the shift in history. Those whether it's ETFs or stocks
Speaker 1: or whatever like these have been always available only you
Speaker 1: know to the you know, to the people in the
Speaker 1: in suits and and you know, only only the people
Speaker 1: that were really able to have a banker on the
Speaker 1: wall street or whatever. And now it's you know, changed,
Speaker 1: and it's also like normal folks with just a mobile phone.
Speaker 1: And I think if the tok Is organization would be
Speaker 1: able you know, to even expand that more to really
Speaker 1: the third part for countries, it could really you know,
Speaker 1: do a lot of good to those parts. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean mixed feelings. I see the risks because you know,
Speaker 1: you're still dependent on those companies you know, actually doing
Speaker 1: what they're saying they're doing, which I always have a
Speaker 1: problem with that. But at the same time, yeah, if
Speaker 1: done right, it can you know, allow some people to
Speaker 1: join the ecosystem.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, well put and then maybe maybe cryptal
Speaker 2: legislation will help put the guard reism place and that
Speaker 2: these companies have to give their access stations that they
Speaker 2: do in fact hold the respective assets, right, So I know,
Speaker 2: right now here in the United States, stable coin legislation
Speaker 2: just passed last week assigning to law, but the Market
Speaker 2: Structure Bill, which would address security not security tokenization. DeFi
Speaker 2: that's going to be passed hopefully, you know, late September,
Speaker 2: early October. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like now we're getting even like to
Speaker 1: the philosophical you know part of how much do you
Speaker 1: trust the government? And you know all that, and we
Speaker 1: we had like an interesting discussion with respect to stable coins, right,
Speaker 1: and I like, again, it has its pros and cons,
Speaker 1: Like obviously, you know, stable coins are still subject to inflation,
Speaker 1: and you know it's it's US dollars, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: it has those properties of a US dollars, so it's
Speaker 1: not a bitcoin obviously, which doesn't have these these these
Speaker 1: negative consequences. But on the other hand, again like after
Speaker 1: a US dollar is the biggest currency of the world,
Speaker 1: and it can you know, with with having stable coins
Speaker 1: on the internet, it can give it can reach people
Speaker 1: that normally wouldn't be able to receive a normal dollars, Right,
Speaker 1: So I do see some good in that. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm glad that it's regulated in some way because of course,
Speaker 1: you know, it could cheat a lot of people It
Speaker 1: really depends how the regulation is done. I think you
Speaker 1: I haven't read, of course, the laws itself, but I
Speaker 1: see some more sense in that. Like in here in
Speaker 1: the European Union, you know, we have regulation mainly dictating
Speaker 1: what you need to do when you're in exchange, and
Speaker 1: it's very bureaucratic and it's very heavy. So on one side,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that there is some regulation because you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of scams obviously, and a lot of
Speaker 1: wrongdoings were done in the crypto market. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I see that it's so heavy that it
Speaker 1: kind of it makes me sad because it kills some
Speaker 1: one man companies, right because they're basically in a table,
Speaker 1: you know, to fulfill this demand. So I again feel
Speaker 1: like the truth is somewhere in the middle and it
Speaker 1: needs to be balanced.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well put well point, how are you feeling
Speaker 2: about You know, you've been in this market eight years,
Speaker 2: we've seen incredible growth, and with legislation and some of
Speaker 2: the regulations coming to place, even though it may not
Speaker 2: be perfect, do you see an explosion of growth, more innovation,
Speaker 2: more crypto businesses, Web three and so forth.
Speaker 1: It's a question that I'm asking myself every second day,
Speaker 1: and I honestly don't know. I I I have been
Speaker 1: like a strong or strong I have been a believer
Speaker 1: of the four year cycle, right like the bull and bear,
Speaker 1: and that it changes each four years. Now I do
Speaker 1: see with the institutionalization of the and the you know,
Speaker 1: the ets, that I feel like it's getting more flat,
Speaker 1: that the curve is not going to be that crazy,
Speaker 1: and I feel like, you know, it's going to be
Speaker 1: more steady growth. And I also do feel that we
Speaker 1: can see we could see some innovation in that regard.
Speaker 1: I also still think that, you know, bitcoin is the
Speaker 1: main player out there. I still do think that that's
Speaker 1: what makes sense the most for the majority of people
Speaker 1: as a savings as a savings account. Where are we
Speaker 1: going to see something interesting? I honestly don't know. I
Speaker 1: would really I'm really interested whether you know, some big
Speaker 1: player is going to make it with the organization, because
Speaker 1: I do think, as we've discussed, it could bring some
Speaker 1: good as well. But at the same time, it's a
Speaker 1: really big it's a really big thing to tackle and
Speaker 1: it's been here on the table for a few years already,
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of wondering whether, yeah, it's going to
Speaker 1: happen or not, so we'll see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It's just amazing how things have changed.
Speaker 2: And I'm curious what you know by twenty thirty, what
Speaker 2: this market looks like, and you know, how this technology
Speaker 2: is adopted in our daily lives. You know, maybe we're
Speaker 2: using more stable coins, or stable coins are powering the
Speaker 2: rails for the existing payment providers banks, payment services like
Speaker 2: Western Union and things like that PayPal, and then more
Speaker 2: people are holding bitcoin and other crypto assets in their
Speaker 2: retirement and their savings and things like that.
Speaker 1: That's that's yeah, I actually think it's it's going that way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's gonna be interesting because it's true that
Speaker 1: you know, all those like bank transfers or even credit
Speaker 1: card payments. It's really it's so old, like the tech
Speaker 1: is getting obsolete that I really think this needs some disruption.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to.
Speaker 2: That awesome Thomas Pleasure chatting with you. I love what
Speaker 2: Treasure is doing. Like I said, I'm a user of
Speaker 2: the devices, but I got some wrap up questions here
Speaker 2: for you. They're rapid fire, favorite food, Vietnamese favorite musician
Speaker 2: or band, musician of band.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I don't really. I'm like listening to such
Speaker 1: a big mix of everything from hip hop to jazz
Speaker 1: to Yeah, I don't really have fun.
Speaker 2: Sorry, worries. I'm the same way. I'm eclectic and I
Speaker 2: listened to variety of stuff. A favorite movie.
Speaker 1: Favorite movie. I just saw the f one movie. I
Speaker 1: come kind of into cars, so I like that. Whether
Speaker 1: it's a favorite one, probably not, but it's the first
Speaker 1: one I remember.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, did you ever see four Versus Ferrari by
Speaker 2: any chance?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I saw it as well, and I even
Speaker 1: liked more of the rivals. I think it was called
Speaker 1: about Niki Lauda and that that was That's probably my
Speaker 1: It could be maybe the number one.
Speaker 2: Oh that is a favorite book.
Speaker 1: Favorite book. I'm not much of a reader, to be honest.
Speaker 1: I've always tried to be, but I'm really failing at that.
Speaker 1: So I don't have fun.
Speaker 2: Sorry. When you're not working at treasure, what are you
Speaker 2: doing for fun?
Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm actually lately somehow devoting my time to
Speaker 1: to to racing and cars. I've started to do a
Speaker 1: little bit of go karting, and just last week and
Speaker 1: I drove for the first time the nine to eleven
Speaker 1: GT three, So that was really it's unfortunately it's not mine,
Speaker 1: it's they were not there. But maybe once you know
Speaker 1: bitcoin is ten million dollars, maybe we'll drive together.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love cars too, and I love Purches. I
Speaker 2: mean they're beautiful cars. But Thomas, great stuff and I
Speaker 2: would love to have you back on in the future
Speaker 2: as new products are launched by Treasure, and we'll talk
Speaker 2: about it. But thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 1: Me, Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thanks